How Bad is this build for Four Elements Monk when compared to other subclasses

[BrelishBard]

So we all know four elements is costly. We all know it has a lot of trap options. But lets just take a few of its best options and compare.

3rd level: Fist of Unbroken Air
6th level: Gong of the Summit
11th level: Ride the Wind
17th level: Breath of Winter

Looking at this selection as its own subclass (Way of Wind) how bad is it against other monk subclasses?

[Zuras]

It’s bad, but with the addition of Ki-Fueled Attacks it’s not abysmal. The problem is that your cool elemental abilities come from the same pool as your monk abilities so you usually have to choose between being a monk or being a warlock of half your level.

Once you hit 11th level you have access to some stronger abilities and have enough ki you don’t constantly feel starved of options, but it’s pretty bad in Tier 2. In my in-play experience, before Tier 3 players either carefully hoarded their Ki and didn’t get to use their subclass features often, or they blew everything in a single round with about a 50% chance of something cool actually happening (since your saves are pretty meh barring rolled stats).

Spell-wise, you operate like a half-caster Warlock, which seems like a good deal compared to Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights till you realize this was balanced by using your existing ki resource pool instead of giving you a completely new one. Then you remember that Warlocks need to lean on cantrips and invocations to be effective if they already spent their pact Magic or want to save it for a later encounter, but Four Elements Monks don’t get anything equivalent, so once you use your elemental abilities once, you're stuck being a ki-less monk till you get a short rest, which isn’t unplayable but isn’t great either.

The basic story with the Four Elements Monk remains the same—it’s playable, and actually fun if you’re starting your campaign at level 11+, but deeply unsatisfying before then, mainly because elemental attunement is such a weak always-on ability. If you want to play one, I’d recommend starting with a race/lineage with a starting feat and picking up Magic Initiate: Druid for two of the elemental cantrips or negotiating with your DM to upgrade Elemental Attunement to something at least as impressive as a cantrip.

Compared to all the other monk subclasses, you just don’t have a strong subclass feature that really lets you shine for an extended period. Open Hand gets all those free riders for the single ki point they were spending on flurry of blows anyway, Shadow gets abilities that are either amazing or irrelevant, depending on whether stealth can solve a particular problem, but it’s rarely disappointing (spells like Pass Without Trace are either obviously not helpful or 95+% effective). I haven’t seen the other subclasses in action as much, but they all had their specific gimmicks to lean on heavily. Scaring monsters with the Long Death monk was deeply satisfying for the one player I’ve seen use one, and while the Sun Soul is probably underpowered, the only time I DMed one was in an undead heavy game, and they had plenty of shining moments there.

[Abracadangit]

Echoing Zuras -- picking solid abilities is good, but it doesn't get around the big pitfalls of the subclass at large. Namely, everything has an exorbitant ki price, you get only one new ability per level (plus one swap, if you desire), and when you put it next to the actual third-casters of the game, i.e. arcane tricksters and eldritch knights, they look very silly. Those other 2 subs get bunches of spells, AND they get extra subclass abilities on top of that. Respectfully, you did state directly that you're only looking at this build in comparison to other Monk subclasses, but when we're talking about the 4e Monk, the third casters bear a little mentioning.

I read an article somewhere (might have been WotC, can't find it now) that suggested the three big fixes were 1) give them two element-themed damage cantrips at level 3, 2) make everything cost less ki, and 3) give them two abilities at each subclass level instead of 1. And even then, they admitted that it's still underpowered, but at least then you can use some of your abilities once or twice without worrying about stepping on the toes of Flurry/Patient Defense/etc.

The other thing about different monk subs is that a lot of them, instead of giving you more ki-spending abilities, find ways to give you more bang for your buck for the ki points you're already spending (i.e. Open Hand) or have cool, thematic tricks that are ki-free (i.e. Shadow's Minor Illusion, teleport, invisibility). 4 Elements doesn't really do either.

So for what it's worth, you picked a good batch of abilities from the list, but it's still an uphill battle.

[Frogreaver]

So we all know four elements is costly. We all know it has a lot of trap options. But lets just take a few of its best options and compare.

3rd level: Fist of Unbroken Air
6th level: Gong of the Summit
11th level: Ride the Wind
17th level: Breath of Winter

Looking at this selection as its own subclass (Way of Wind) how bad is it against other monk subclasses?

Unbroken air is bad.

Shatter is at least situationally useful

Ride the wind is situationally useful

Breath of winter is also situationally useful

Every other subclass grants generally useful abilities.

If you want a fix then turning all the monk spells into bonus actions goes a long way. Giving the elemental monk +1 ki feels nice as well.

[loki_ragnarock]

So we all know four elements is costly. We all know it has a lot of trap options. But lets just take a few of its best options and compare.

3rd level: Fist of Unbroken Air
6th level: Gong of the Summit
11th level: Ride the Wind
17th level: Breath of Winter

Looking at this selection as its own subclass (Way of Wind) how bad is it against other monk subclasses?

You will feel a little under par before tenth level or so. After about 10th level you'll have enough ki available to be able to switch it up between the two without much worry, after which you'll feel like a superhero.

Four Elements has a fun back half. Which most campaigns never see. First half gives you options; just use them when it's advantageous, rather than as a gimmick. When it's advantageous to knock an archer from their sniper's nest from 30ft out, do that. When a bunch of softened enemies are assembled in fireball formation, shatter. You've solved ranged attacks and AoE early in, letting you do something other monks can't. Good on ya. Flying is going to feel super dope, and is a great addition to the monk's mobility toolkit. That it comes online when you've got enough ki to use your other options more liberally? Tier 3 will be your sweet spot. It's going to feel great.

Breath of Winter isn't really doing that much for you at 17th level; it's a massive area, sure. As a monk you are almost uniquely capable of getting in position to maximize the utility, sure. With a secondary dex focus, you might be initiative oriented enough to use it as an opener against a crowd. But apart from that, it's just doubling up on Gong of the Summit. Still, the massive area lets you be (likely) the only monk that can actually take on an army single handed.

Summation:
You're better at ranged attacks, crowds, and mobility than most other monks. Constrained in first half by a limited ki pool, that'll only get better as you go.
Don't worry about the naysayers - stunning strike is the only worthwhile option for other monks because it's largely their only option. You'll be fine.

[Zuras]

Regarding your specific discipline choices-Ride the Wind is an excellent choice at 11th level, as you’re doubling down on mobility, which is already a class strength of the monk, and also has significant utility in non-combat applications.

Fist of Unbroken Air is OK, but inferior to Water Whip in optimizer terms, since high strength is correlated with high constitution, meaning targeting Dex saves with Water Whip often lets you hit opponents unlikely to succumb to stunning strike on a bad (or at least worse) save.

Your overall issue is most of your selections are dealing damage, and converting ki to AoE damage is always going to feel underwhelming compared to a full caster of the same level.

Rush of the Gale Spirits can actually be very impressive, because Gust of Wind is one of those spells that becomes amazing if you have exactly the right positioning, which a monk can usually achieve. I think it’s one of the best low level disciplines, mainly because you’re not tempted to use it in situations where it isn’t appropriate, and when it is effective it’s often spectacular.

[Psyren]

Remember that Elemental Attunement is also a Discipline, so you can drop it for something better if you don't need any of the minor effects (and let's face it, you probably don't). That gives you a 5th discipline.

Water Whip combos nicely with Ki-Fueled Attacks (damage/drag them in, punch in face when they get there.) This also gives you a potential way to deal with fliers before Ride the Wind comes online.

[Unoriginal]

Unbroken air is bad.

Fist of the Unbroken Air is one of the best Four Elements Monk's abilities, IMO.

A STR-save, damage-dealing, ranged ability that also knocks the target prone regardless of sizes and push the target in case of failed save is great for a Monk. Its ki-cost isn't small, but that's the only thing stopping it from being amazing.

I would recommend OP to have it alongside with Water Whip, though, because enemies usually are great at STR saves or DEX saves, rather than both, so that way you have many angles covered.

[strangebloke]

The humorous thing is that if you're in a 5-minute adventuring day and your DM gave you triple resources (because you're never getting a short rest) 4e monk is arguably one of if not the best monk subclass, because the high cost of something like fangs of the fire snake doesn't actually matter that much. A level 8 monk under such a system has 24 ki and 4-5 rounds to spend it. They can sustain the insanity that is the flurry + fangs + extra damage on each hit for the whole encounter.

(1d8+1d10+5)*4=60 is no joke.

[Man_Over_Game]

The humorous thing is that if you're in a 5-minute adventuring day and your DM gave you triple resources (because you're never getting a short rest) 4e monk is arguably one of if not the best monk subclass, because the high cost of something like fangs of the fire snake doesn't actually matter that much. A level 8 monk under such a system has 24 ki and 4-5 rounds to spend it. They can sustain the insanity that is the flurry + fangs + extra damage on each hit for the whole encounter.

(1d8+1d10+5)*4=60 is no joke.

strangebloke is right, it isn't that 4Elements monks are terrible, it's that they're very inconsistent. They have the same balance problems Warlocks do, as they're entirely dependent on the consistency of Short Rests and dramatically increase in power as they level.

If you're level 3 and having 1-2 encounters a day, they're probably one of the worst things you could play. But if you're level 6+ and taking a Short Rest between each encounter, you'd best believe it'd be strong.

I kinda like the idea of allowing the Monk to choose an Elemental mastery every Subclass enhancement level:

Earth/Fire/Wind/Water Mastery: Casting a ____ element power that costs 2 or more Ki costs 1 less Ki.

Which buffs lower-level 4Elements monks and encourages specialization at the start, and then encourages more diversity in your powers as you advance and becomes less useful as you spend more on abilities that cost a lot of Ki.

One of the problems with 4Elements Monks is that Monks can already spend 2 Ki Points per turn with Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, so whatever you spend your Ki on from your subclass has to be more valuable than 2 attacks and a possible stun for the cost of 2 ki points. This doesn't happen until you either have so many Ki points it's hard to run out (which doesn't happen until about level 8), or the things you spend Ki on are just that much more efficient (which I don't think will happen without some kind of refund mechanic).

[Zuras]

strangebloke is right, it isn't that 4Elements monks are terrible, it's that they're very inconsistent. They have the same balance problems Warlocks do, as they're entirely dependent on the consistency of Short Rests and dramatically increase in power as they level.



I'd argue their issues are significantly worse than a warlock, specifically because they get neither cantrips nor invocation equivalents to lean on once they exhaust their ki, and a base monk without ki is boring at best.

If you just gave the subclass more cantrip-like abilities by expanding the scope of elemental attunement (make it a separate feature, not a discipline, with more perks at higher level) it would still be a bit underpowered but a lot more fun.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd argue their issues are significantly worse than a warlock, specifically because they get neither cantrips nor invocation equivalents to lean on once they exhaust their ki, and a base monk without ki is boring at best.

If you just gave the subclass more cantrip-like abilities by expanding the scope of elemental attunement (make it a separate feature, not a discipline, with more perks at higher level) it would still be a bit underpowered but a lot more fun.

I thought about that. My original idea for the 'Elemental Mastery' feature kinda did this with refunding the first ki point you spent on abilities of that element each turn, I'm just too busy right now to find out if that'd be too strong so I nerfed it to "When you spend 2 or more ki points". I do agree, though.

[Psyren]

Personally, if I did give them cantrips, they'd only be usable if they have at least 1 point of ki remaining. Also, they only get [element cantrip] if they have at least one discipline matching that element, so you're forced to diversify your loadout if you want all four. (Elemental Attunement doesn't count.)

[Zuras]

Personally, if I did give them cantrips, they'd only be usable if they have at least 1 point of ki remaining. Also, they only get [element cantrip] if they have at least one discipline matching that element, so you're forced to diversify your loadout if you want all four. (Elemental Attunement doesn't count.)


The cleanest way to handle it is to give some always on abilities linked to your attunement to an element (changeable on a rest) similarly to the way the UA Mystic class worked. Give them the utility cantrips for free, require they spend a ki point to use the damage dealing ones but let them add their Martial Arts die to the damage total. This would also let you use Ki-Fueled Strike with cantrips similar to features like War Magic.

[Psyren]

The cleanest way to handle it is to give some always on abilities linked to your attunement to an element (changeable on a rest) similarly to the way the UA Mystic class worked. Give them the utility cantrips for free, require they spend a ki point to use the damage dealing ones but let them add their Martial Arts die to the damage total. This would also let you use Ki-Fueled Strike with cantrips similar to features like War Magic.

I would alter that slightly - you can use damage-dealing cantrips at-will for free, or spend a ki point to add your martial arts die to their damage, and opting to do the latter would enable KFS.

[JellyPooga]

I've always had a bit of a soft spot for Shape the Flowing River, myself. It offers greater utility than the Shape Water Cantrip, making it a great tool in Exploration and it also has valid Combat application.

For the low cost of 1 Ki point, it's only real drawback is that it costs an Action to use. If it scaled with level and/or replaced an Attack, or if it had greater listed/direct combat use, it would be far more enticing for sure, but I don't see that it really needs the improvement.