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Grod_The_Giant
2021-10-04, 01:17 PM
I'm planning out a wilderness-adventure type campaign, and right now I'm trying to lay out some concrete rules to provide structure. Do the following bits make sense? Are they too harsh? Too lenient? Too complicated? (I want traveling to be relatively reliable when prepared, but hazardous when something goes really wrong).

Exploration
Given that a major part of the game is going to be wandering around the wilderness, it’s worth putting a bit of structure to the activity. A big part of that is the idea of the “hex”—dividing the wilderness up into bit-sized chunks. Each hex is a hexagon ten miles across, and may or may not contain anything more interesting than rocks and trees.


Declaration: At the start of the day, the party decides which way they’re trying to go, and how fast they want to move.

Normally a group can cover two hexes per day.
At a fast pace, you can cover three hexes but have disadvantage on Survival, Perception, and similar checks. You cannot forage.
At a slow pace, you only cover one hex, but have advantage on said checks. You can forage, with each character proficient in Survival gathering one pound of food per point of bonus. You can attempt stealth while traveling slowly.
If you choose to explore, you don't leave the hex at all, but you can gather enough food to feed the entire group and discover otherwise-hidden structures and points of interest. You also have advantage on random encounter rolls--I'll roll twice and use the gentler option.


Navigation: Make a group Wisdom (Survival) check, with a DC based on the terrain. Success lets you move normally; failure leads to your party being lost and veering off-course.

Following an obvious trail, such as a river, lets you automatically succeed on this check, and you have advantage on this check in previously-explored hexes.
When you move into an unexplored hex, the area will be revealed on the world map, and you’ll have the option of arriving at any points of interest therein.
Lost: Your map marker will be hidden, and you’ll wind up moving in a random direction. Hexes you move through while lost are not revealed.


Encounter: At some point during the day, I’ll roll on the random encounter tables to see what you run into as you travel—it could be monsters, it could be storms, and it could be treasure.

Different parts of the island will have different tables; if you’re at the border between two zones, I’ll pick one randomly.
NPCs (including hostiles) can be encountered in one of three ways-- you can run into them head-on (40%), find their trail (40%), or encounter their lair (20%). If you're lost, you're more likely to stumble into a head-on encounter (60%) and less likely to find tracks first (20%).
Passive Perception will be used to determine surprise.


Camping: At the end of the day, you’ll make camp (presumably) . If you’re lost, you can attempt a new Survival check to figure out where you’ve wound up.

Characters need to consume 2 pounds of food and 1 gallon of water per day, otherwise you get a level of exhaustion.
It's difficult to rest in the wilderness. Traditional rests are almost impossible--instead, short rests in the wilderness take eight hours, and long rests are impossible outside a fortified location. you may take a short break, a night's rest, or a deep rest. Long rests are only possible in safe locations such as towns, forts, and palisades.

A Short Break takes one hour, and allows you to spend hit dice to recover hit points and perform use abilities that can are normally "part of a short rest." You may take as many short breaks as you like.
A Night's Rest takes eight hours, and requires appropriate food, water, and shelter. In addition to the benefits of a short break, you regain one hit die and recover from one level of exhaustion, and use abilities that are normally "part of a long rest," such as changing prepared spells.
A Deep Rest is identical to a normal Night's Rest, except that you may also regain all uses of abilities that normally recharge on a short rest. You may only take three Deep Rests before needing a proper Long Rest to complete your recovery.

I'll make one more random encounter roll to see if anything bothers you while you sleep; inapplicable results (such as "quicksand appears") will be treated as uneventful.
(And some will even avoid you altogether). Construction is faster if there's an appropriate structure to start with, such as a ruined tower or cave. If you abandon an intact fortification, there's a chance that someone else will have taken it over by the time you return.



Fortifying:
If you spend three full days working, you can construct a Palisade, a basic fortified camp protected by trenches and crude wooden walls. You can complete a proper Long Rest when taking shelter in a palisade, and the walls will offer a terrain advantage against any hostile nightly visitors still intent on a fight.

Some hostile creatures will avoid palisades entirely.
An abandoned palisade is likely to be taken over by someone else, given time. Destroying one takes several hours, reducing your travel speed for the day by 1 hex.


Exploration Aids

Hirelings bring a variety of special skills to the table, although they might have to be protected. If you ask them to do something particularly dangerous, like delving into a dungeon or hunting a manticore, they're liable to demand a share of the profits. Unless otherwise specified, they use the stats of Commoners.

Experts (3 gp/day) have a +6 bonus to one skill or tool, and a +4 bonus in two related areas.
Guards (3 gp/day), well, guard. They use the stats of Bandits, but with their Strength increased to 14 and (typically) studded leather armor, a shield, a spear, and a light crossbow. In addition to fighting on your side in combat, they can protect mounts, palisades, fellow hirelings, and so on while you're away. To do their job, you need a number of Guards equal to the area's overall level-- four will be enough for most regions--otherwise there's a chance of their being overwhelmed.
Healers (5 gp/day) can stabilize dying creatures as an action, and carry Healing Kits with them. If they expend a use, everyone in the group to regains 1d6 hit points over the course of a Night's Rest.
Hunters (2 gp/day)take care of foraging for you, regardless of the expedition's pace. At a Normal or Slow pace, each hunter brings in enough food for five people; at a Fast pace, only three.
Laborers (1 gp/day) don't offer anything special beyond a Strength score of 13, but they also only cost 1gp/day.
Mages (10 gp/day) are available in limited numbers; if a mage dies, no more will sign on with any of their employers for a month. Each knows two cantrips, one first level spell, and three first level ritual spells, and has one first level spell slot which they regain after a short rest. Clerics have Wisdom scores of 14 and a +4 bonus to Religion; Druids have Wisdom scores of 14 and a +4 bonus to Nature; Wizards have Intelligence scores of 14 and a +4 bonus to Arcana.
Partners are a special type of Hireling. There are a handful of NPC adventurers in Cape Hope who have actual class levels-- they'll be listed in full elsewhere. They demand a full, equal share of all treasure and bounties, but in doing so they gain experience and class levels just like you. They will join you in battle, and a single Partner is enough to protect a palisade in any region whose overall level is lower than their own. (If you also have Guards, add your Partner's level to the number of Guards to determine if you have enough protection or not). If they die, that's it; they're gone unless you get them resurrected.

Mounts (50gp) allow you to travel one additional hex per day, though they prevent stealthy travel.
Pack Animals (10 gp) and Wagons (35gp) let you carry much more in the way of supplies (and treasure), but reduce your pace by one hex per day, to a minimum of 1, and prevent stealthy travel.


Settling the Island
Your characters are explorers, not civic leaders--for the most part, colonization will happen on its own. After you report your discoveries and collect your bounties, the governor may choose to send soldiers and settlers to take advantage of a newly-discovered natural resource of freshly-cleared fortification. Once founded, you can take advantage of them.

Roads: Building a road takes one week per hex. Once completed, you can traverse the hex at double speed, and the random encounter table will be modified: you won’t hit any terrain hazards and are less likely to run into dangerous animals and the like, but are more likely to encounter civilized creatures.
Forts: Having soldiers around makes an area safer. Dangerous random encounters do not occur in the hex where the fort is built, and have a fifty percent chance of not occurring in adjacent hexes. Most importantly, you can benefit from a full Long Rest in a garrisoned Fort.
Towns: Are the ultimate end-goal, and typically aren't established without a Fort in the same hex. Once settled, basic merchants and craftsmen will be available, patrols will make adjacent hexes safe from dangerous random encounters, and you'll be able to sell your loot and earn experience points. Whenever a new Town is founded, all characters gain a hundred experience points.


One a hex has been explored, and any major dangers eliminated, you can pay to have it developed. The times and costs assume that you’re hiring guards and laborers from Cape Hope—attempting to do the construction yourselves costs half as much but takes twice as long.


Roads (100gp/hex): Building a road takes one week. Once completed, you can traverse the hex at double speed, and the random encounter table will be modified: you won’t hit any terrain hazards and are less likely to run into dangerous animals and the like, but are more likely to encounter civilized creatures.
Fort (250 gp): Building a fort takes two weeks. Once completed, it provides a safe place to rest—you do not risk random encounters, and gain the full benefits of a long rest when you sleep there. If abandoned for too long, there’s a risk that someone else moves in—but conversely, if you chase hostile creatures out of one of their strongholds, you can take it over for no cost.

Garrison (500 gp, +10gp/hex away from the nearest town): If you hire mercenaries to occupy a fort (either one you built or one you cleared), it becomes even safer. Dangerous random encounters do not occur in the hex where the fort is built, and have a fifty percent chance of not occurring in adjacent hexes. It also can’t be taken over by nasties.

Town (10gp/hex away from Cape Hope): Once a fort has been garrisoned and connected by road to at least one existing town, you can sponsor the construction of a full-on village. Settlers will travel from Cape Hope at a rate of two days per hex, at which point basic merchants and craftsmen will be available and adjacent hexes will also be safe from dangerous random encounters. You’ll be able to earn experience points there. Finally, when a town is settled, all players involved in funding it gain experience points equal to twice their contribution.

Man_Over_Game
2021-10-04, 01:27 PM
I like this a lot, thanks Grod! I love how versatile and simple it is. It won't take much to modify for any table to match what they're looking to do.

I also like the idea that having a mounted cart allows you to travel a bonus hex per day, and riding fast mounts allow you to travel an extra two hexes per day.

So travelling quickly, with a fast mount, could get you 5 hexes in a single day. On the other hand, maybe a few penalty modifiers could be added that decrease your movement by 1 Hex, like moving stealthily or traveling in a way that grants you a Short Rest.

Not a necessity, I just always wanted to draw more value out of that kind of stuff so that players plan where they're going a bit better, and your system is pretty damn perfect with and without it.



For those who want to use this kind of stuff in their own world, it's worth knowing that towns or resting points were generally spaced about 1 day's worth of slow, mounted travel on a road. For a system like this, that's probably about 6 hexes' worth of distance.

Your system does also tie in to some really interesting side jobs. Maybe the Merchants' Guild is offering 5 gold to every adventurer that helps them protect development on some new road. Not much money, but it permanently improves the players' gameplay for the remainder of the campaign with the new addition.

Looking forward to using something like this at my own table.

Segev
2021-10-04, 01:32 PM
I think you'll find that the stresses on long rest classes might be too high, unless you have a lot of "safe places" to camp they can find throughout the wilderness. You will also find short rest classes to be nova-ing every encounter, most likely, since they have no incentive not to short rest after each encounter. The typical "gritty realism" rules let you only "short rest" overnight, I think for that reason, though if you're only going to have one encounter at most per day, that's the same difference, so you needn't worry about it.

This definitely will make finding friendly villages that will let them stay the night a thing the PCs will love. It will also make finding unfriendly villages or dungeons after days of travel horrifying.

You will find that your players will not explore dungeons that are not near safe places to rest.

Maybe give them a means of buliding a sort-of base camp that is a "safe place" but only for them and their hirelings and maybe requires maintenance (which hirelings can provide) to keep up. Make it take a few days - perhaps a week - to establish, and they can set up shop for rest and recovery and even to explore a dungeon, but can't just plop it down with no consequences to their timetable.

JNAProductions
2021-10-04, 01:32 PM
Simple, but effective. I might make resting a LITTLE more effective-perhaps the lesser of Prof Mod hit dice, or your normal recovery of hit dice.

That wouldn't actually change any of the regained numbers until level 7, come to think of it. I still think a singular hit die is too little-maybe make it half your normal rate of recovery, for 1/4th your total?

Composer99
2021-10-04, 02:16 PM
I went with 6-mile hexes for my own hexcrawl rules, which conveniently allows you to match the daily paces given in the PHB: a fast pace lets you manage 5 hexes a day, a normal pace 4 hexes, and a slow pace 3 hexes.

The travel per hour feels a little wonky if you want to stick to those paces at 3 3/4 miles/hour (5/8 hexes/hour) at a fast pace and 2 1/4 miles/hour (3/8 hexes/hour) at a slow pace. (These don't line up to the hourly paces in the PHB, but that's on the PHB.)

If you want to make it feel a little less wonky, you can scale up to 2-hour watches as the standard unit of travel and hex-scale exploration time. So then you travel a clean 1 hex per watch at a normal pace, 1 1/4 hexes per watch at a fast pace, and 3/4 hexes per watch at a slow pace.

Not related to the above, but works just as well with it, did you want to add a "travel activity", so to speak, where the PCs spend some extra time exploring a hex for sites of interest? Big, obvious places might be easy to find, but they might miss out on smaller or concealed locations if they're just passing through. Finding the local equivalent of Castle Greyskull shouldn't be too hard, but maybe the entrance to the local equivalent of the Tomb of Horrors would be.

Yakk
2021-10-04, 02:43 PM
Can I try to approach this from a gamist perspective? From an ameritrash perspective.

1. Every choice should matter. If a choice doesn't matter, it isn't a choice.

2. Every mechanic should be attached to a choice. Mechanics without choice are boring.

3. Choices and Mechanics need to be attached to the fiction. The game should produce a narrative.

4. This is an RPG, so exceptions to the main game loop needs to be handled gracefully.

...

Kitbashing stuff.

Supplies should be abstracted. You should consume supplies.

Crew in the abstract game maps to PCs or whatever.

Gear would be non-perishable gear. Could be horses, ships, bags, wagons.

Cargo includes supplies, but is not limited to it. If you have a bunch of iron, it is cargo, but not supplies.

...

I'd remove most group checks. If you have a trusted guide, people who can't navigate doesn't make that person get lost.

Instead, I'd assign crew to tasks. For D&D, each player would declare what they are doing over the day.

If you try to split your time up, you get penalties.

Navigating for a larger group requires more effort. A trail suitable for 5 people isn't as suitable for 500. But it isn't linear.

...

Tasks:
* Support (much Gear and Cargo requires this. Like minding horses, cooking food, maintaining wagons or ships.)
* Navigation (figure out where you are and where you are going.)
* Foraging (gather supplies)
* Exploration (this is different than navigation.)
* Guarding (look for foes)
* Leading (coordinate and inspire)

Not all crew needs to be assigned to a task.

I can imagine a general challenge, like "travel without breaking your leg", that untasked crew would have an advantage at. So the less competent would best not be assigned a task in difficult terrain.

---

I do like your speed option.

We can make it careful, standard and rushed as the options. How many hex's you cover should be a matter of checks.

I also like the idea of taking a page from war games. In war games you often have a spring, summer, fall and winter phase.

Here, we can have morning, noon, afternoon, and night phases. Camping then just becomes a goal you can perform in a phase.

---

Navigation, or finding a path to where you want to go, can take time. The navigator or scout could even end up going ahead of the main group. This would leave the main group time to do things like extra exploration in a hex, or foraging.

I like the idea of entering a hex, and having to wait for the Navigator to build up enough Trailblazing points to be able to leave it.

Abracadangit
2021-10-04, 02:49 PM
I did something kinda like this, once!

Not worth getting into the particulars of my system -- yours is better and more robust in pretty much every aspect.

I would echo what Composer99 said -- I had different "actions" that the group could take when they were parked on a hex, and one of them was "Scout," where instead of just stumbling into nearby hexes, I would preroll the random encounters for one or two surrounding hexes and tell them (if they beat the Scouting DC) what was in those hexes, so they knew what the story was before they moved over there.

Also I didn't make players roll for navigation when they went through previously explored hexes. Less realistic than yours, admittedly, but they liked the feel of "Those hexes on the map are uncovered, so when the fog-of-war effect is gone, we're good."

Overall, fantastic job!

strangebloke
2021-10-04, 03:07 PM
Love it. Definitely want to get a chance to run this at some point.

Grod_The_Giant
2021-10-04, 07:22 PM
I like this a lot, thanks Grod! I love how versatile and simple it is. It won't take much to modify for any table to match what they're looking to do.

I also like the idea that having a mounted cart allows you to travel a bonus hex per day, and riding fast mounts allow you to travel an extra two hexes per day.

So travelling quickly, with a fast mount, could get you 5 hexes in a single day. On the other hand, maybe a few penalty modifiers could be added that decrease your movement by 1 Hex, like moving stealthily or traveling in a way that grants you a Short Rest.

Not a necessity, I just always wanted to draw more value out of that kind of stuff so that players plan where they're going a bit better, and your system is pretty damn perfect with and without it.
A modifier for mounts is a good call. For carts... I feel like dragging a cart into the wilderness would actually slow you down.



I think you'll find that the stresses on long rest classes might be too high, unless you have a lot of "safe places" to camp they can find throughout the wilderness. You will also find short rest classes to be nova-ing every encounter, most likely, since they have no incentive not to short rest after each encounter. The typical "gritty realism" rules let you only "short rest" overnight, I think for that reason, though if you're only going to have one encounter at most per day, that's the same difference, so you needn't worry about it
...
Maybe give them a means of buliding a sort-of base camp that is a "safe place" but only for them and their hirelings and maybe requires maintenance (which hirelings can provide) to keep up. Make it take a few days - perhaps a week - to establish, and they can set up shop for rest and recovery and even to explore a dungeon, but can't just plop it down with no consequences to their timetable.
Normal resting rules don't work for a travel-focused game either. I considered converting all classes to be long-rest based, to prevent exactly the issue you mentioned, but that's probably a complication step too far. Maybe limit short-rest-recharge to three times per long rest? That keeps the rest balance from being skewed too far, while still given the fight-all-day classes an edge in endurance.

Fortified camps aren't a bad idea--I sorta envisioned forts as filling that roll, but there's a good case for the intermediate, less-secure version. Perhaps camps take three days to construct, and you still have to roll for random nighttime encounters?




Can I try to approach this from a gamist perspective? From an ameritrash perspective.
It certainly sounds like it could make a fun board game. Probably a little too much so for an RPG; I've not had great experiences trying to mix the two.

I'd remove most group checks. If you have a trusted guide, people who can't navigate doesn't make that person get lost.[/quote]
I don't want to have characters make individual checks and take the highest, but at the same time I'd like everyone who invested in Survival to feel like that choice mattered. Averaging the result across everyone who tries was a compromise--it represents multiple guides double-checking each other and trying to reach a consensus.



I would echo what Composer99 said -- I had different "actions" that the group could take when they were parked on a hex, and one of them was "Scout," where instead of just stumbling into nearby hexes, I would preroll the random encounters for one or two surrounding hexes and tell them (if they beat the Scouting DC) what was in those hexes, so they knew what the story was before they moved over there.
That's not the worst idea. I'm planning on folding a bit of that into the random encounters themselves--if you did well enough on the daily Survival check, you'll run into goblin tracks instead of a goblin warband, for instance.

Segev
2021-10-04, 08:37 PM
Normal resting rules don't work for a travel-focused game either. I considered converting all classes to be long-rest based, to prevent exactly the issue you mentioned, but that's probably a complication step too far. Maybe limit short-rest-recharge to three times per long rest? That keeps the rest balance from being skewed too far, while still given the fight-all-day classes an edge in endurance.

Fortified camps aren't a bad idea--I sorta envisioned forts as filling that roll, but there's a good case for the intermediate, less-secure version. Perhaps camps take three days to construct, and you still have to roll for random nighttime encounters?


Rolling for night encounters isn't a terrible idea, though I would suggest that, if they're taking days to set up the camp, they should be able to get at least one long rest out of it, but conversely, nothing stops them from just "resetting the clock" on their 8 hours if an encounter interrupts it. (And the rules for encounters during a long rest are, IIRC, pretty forgiving: one encounter of an hour or less duration doesn't actually disrupt it, though it can bite into the next day's spell slots as you don't refresh the ones spent within 8 hours of the end of the long rest, IIRC.)

Forts absolutely fill the roll; they just take longer to set up and are bigger "things." If your intended play style is for adventurers to refrain from exploring dungeons until forts are set up on top of them, that works. My usual assumption for a hex crawl is that dungeons in the wilderness are meant to be either explored when discovered, or made into targets for expeditions, but not to require months of work to build a permanent fort on top of them before they're plunged into.

RandomPeasant
2021-10-04, 08:49 PM
Settling the Island

This bit seems under-developed. For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any room for the character's abilities to have any effect on the process, which seems like a bad idea from a gameplay perspective. Something as simple as a Charisma check to accelerate the settlement process, or an Intelligence check to reduce construction costs, goes a long way. You can of course get essentially arbitrarily detailed with this sort of thing, and I don't think you need to do that, but the kingdom-building needs to involve more than just "point the money where you want it".


A modifier for mounts is a good call. For carts... I feel like dragging a cart into the wilderness would actually slow you down.

But dragging a cart along a road would not. It comes down to how much detail you want to go into for things (and also the degree to which you expect the campaign to continue after the PCs start throwing down infrastructure improvements). Even over rough terrain, there's presumably some value in extending the duration of your trip at the cost of moving more slowly, or at least that is a tradeoff that should be potentially justifiable.

Grod_The_Giant
2021-10-04, 09:05 PM
This bit seems under-developed. For one thing, there doesn't seem to be any room for the character's abilities to have any effect on the process, which seems like a bad idea from a gameplay perspective. Something as simple as a Charisma check to accelerate the settlement process, or an Intelligence check to reduce construction costs, goes a long way. You can of course get essentially arbitrarily detailed with this sort of thing, and I don't think you need to do that, but the kingdom-building needs to involve more than just "point the money where you want it".
If that was supposed to be a campaign focus, absolutely, but it's not-- the game is intended to be about exploration and adventure, not kingdom-building. Forts and Towns are there to give the players forward bases for further exploration, as well as a sink for money when the ol' magic-mart isn't available.

...and now that I think about it, maybe I shouldn't even include a Settling the Island section, and have development be more automatic. Find a couple coal veins in one place, report back to the governor, and maybe a few miners head out to found a new town. Clear a bunch of orcs out of an important fort, let the army know about it, and they'll send a couple squads to garrison it. Hmm...

RandomPeasant
2021-10-04, 09:22 PM
That's certainly a reasonable approach, and it fits with where the rules are focused. But as-is, the development rules are too, well, developed to have as little player involvement as they do. I do think it is worth asking the question "to what end is the island being developed", because that will influence what the players are looking for and how they respond to threats. Is the Empire (or whoever it is that owns Cape Hope) on the island because they think it has some particularly appealing natural resources? Because it is a strategically important location? Because it happens to be a patch of "unsettled" land their ships can now reach? Because there's a prophecy that says someone needs to find the Black Temple and perform the Rites of Sealing before the occupant wakes up? All of those suggest different priorities for the PCs to have while exploring.

Grod_The_Giant
2021-10-05, 12:52 PM
That's certainly a reasonable approach, and it fits with where the rules are focused. But as-is, the development rules are too, well, developed to have as little player involvement as they do. I do think it is worth asking the question "to what end is the island being developed", because that will influence what the players are looking for and how they respond to threats. Is the Empire (or whoever it is that owns Cape Hope) on the island because they think it has some particularly appealing natural resources? Because it is a strategically important location? Because it happens to be a patch of "unsettled" land their ships can now reach? Because there's a prophecy that says someone needs to find the Black Temple and perform the Rites of Sealing before the occupant wakes up? All of those suggest different priorities for the PCs to have while exploring.
That's a good point.

Tweaked the rules for development to take it out of the players' hands, added in mounts and hirelings, secure camps, exploring a hex in depth, and a limit to short rest recovery for the sake of balance.

Joe the Rat
2021-10-05, 01:57 PM
I'm a fan of "Gritty Travel" - 8-hour short rest while traveling, long rests only in established locales. It treats the travel sequence as a single "adventure day" from the regular recovery concept.
I then switch back with site adventures, because I'm trying to maintain a level of resource and risk, not up the grit. That might be a simpler approach, and with modest encounter rates fit your needs with minimal finessing.

If you are not intentionally proficiency gating on Survival, use Passive Survival against a hex resource DC (typically 10). it's a tweak, but it also lets you make locations scarcer if desired.

Keep in mind the Outlander Background and Ranger traits that interact with orientation and foraging - if you are not going to let them "automatically feed up to ten", spell that out ahead of time.

Mounts can make travel faster, particularly in known spaces, but for exploration purposes, they're about carrying capacity.

Yakk
2021-10-06, 09:16 AM
It certainly sounds like it could make a fun board game. Probably a little too much so for an RPG; I've not had great experiences trying to mix the two.
The idea is to take board game structure and use it to inform how to make an engaging RPG experience.

(Ameritrash is a derogatory name for the branch of modern board games that is less about elegance, and more about drama and simulation; that branch seems appropriate to attach to an RPG.)



I'd remove most group checks. If you have a trusted guide, people who can't navigate doesn't make that person get lost.
I don't want to have characters make individual checks and take the highest, but at the same time I'd like everyone who invested in Survival to feel like that choice mattered. Averaging the result across everyone who tries was a compromise--it represents multiple guides double-checking each other and trying to reach a consensus.
That is why I was talking about having people have roles.

If there is more than one thing to do, and doing that thing takes your entire quarter-day... some people will navigate, others will escort, others will explore, and others will forage.

If there are more things to do than you have people in a given quarter-day, each person's choice of doing something can generate benefits, even if they are bad at it.

This replaces the "everyone roll to navigate" and "everyone roll to forage" and "everyone roll to X". Those "everyone rolls" don't have much of a narrative or decision base, they are just random number generation. Given a modest group of PCs and a DC, with many rolls you'll even be able to predict pretty well what the result would be; so there isn't even much information generated by the roll.

As a rule, you should avoid asking for a roll from a PC without a decision point being made, and interesting results on either side of the roll. Asking for a group check with no decisions repeatedly is the opposite of them.

PhantomSoul
2021-10-06, 09:27 AM
That is why I was talking about having people have roles.

If there is more than one thing to do, and doing that thing takes your entire quarter-day... some people will navigate, others will escort, others will explore, and others will forage.

If there are more things to do than you have people in a given quarter-day, each person's choice of doing something can generate benefits, even if they are bad at it.

This replaces the "everyone roll to navigate" and "everyone roll to forage" and "everyone roll to X". Those "everyone rolls" don't have much of a narrative or decision base, they are just random number generation. Given a modest group of PCs and a DC, with many rolls you'll even be able to predict pretty well what the result would be; so there isn't even much information generated by the roll.

The roles solutions seems right (inspired from Monarchs Factory on Youtube, with low sample size for it being used in play because of campaign hiatus); having many role options seems useful to limit piling on since then the party can accomplish more things they probably want to instead of having everyone do one thing or everyone do everything.

E.g.
Gatherers/Provisioners: Looking for usable objects they specify, which could be provisions or another object.
Helpers: Instead of being the main person attempting to accomplish a task, trying to offer support to one other character with one role and therefore give them Advantage if they succeed on a DC 10 Ability Check appropriate to the role they are attempting to help with, so long as they could plausibly help. You cannot Help with more than one Role.
Pilot/Crew: Only needed if a ship is involved in the travel. The pilot must have proficiency with whatever ship is being piloted. Some ships require a crew in addition to the pilot, for example to open and close a ship’s sails.
Spotters/Scouts: Looking for threats like Random Encounters.
Navigators: Looking for the correct path to take to get to a destination.
Trackers: Looking for the correct path to take to get to a target creature. Characters may elect to do something else during this time, subject to DM approval. Depending on the task, that task may not inhibit their ability to fulfill one of the above rolls.

Then you probably want to homebrew connections/applications (e.g. Rangers in their Favoured Terrain can perform a second Role with no added penalty, but perhaps other Characters have Disadvantage at both Roles if they wish to perform two rolls and you want them to be able to do more than one broad task).

Grod_The_Giant
2021-10-06, 09:40 AM
The idea is to take board game structure and use it to inform how to make an engaging RPG experience.
Right--but my experience is that this does not work. When a set of rules gets too abstract and too divorced from the idea of "I, as my character, am doing this specific thing," you lose the spark that makes tabletop games shine. The game zooms out to a higher level of narrative, players shift to board game mode, and things just get disconnected. That was one of the big complaints about 4e's Skill Challenge rules, iirc, that they didn't connect properly to what the individual characters were doing in the moment.

As a fan of homebrew, subsystems, and board games, this is a problem I've run into a lot. In a recent Exalted campaign, we tried out the minigame for naval combat once and never touched it again--partially because it was mechanically flawed, admittedly, but mostly because it felt like we switched to playing Sid Meyer's Pirates. Later on we experimented with a couple variants of kingdom-management rules and wound up throwing out almost everything that was based on the kingdom's resources, and most of the autopilot-type mechanics, because they just felt too divorced from the game we wanted to be playing*. And this was with a group of college friends I've been gaming with for more than ten years.

There's a fine line between something like skill challenges and an out-and-out minigame, but it's definitely there.


(Ameritrash is a derogatory name for the branch of modern board games that is less about elegance, and more about drama and simulation; that branch seems appropriate to attach to an RPG.)

Oh, I'm aware. Never again will I let someone rope me into playing Arkham Horror.







*For the curious, the system we settled on had players using their own skills and special abilities to take "leadership actions," with a modifier based on the kingdom's qualities. For the most part, they also required you to point to a codified resource and say "I'm using labor from this city" or "I'm dispatching this regiment of soldiers," and characters could only lead one action at a time.

Segev
2021-10-06, 09:54 AM
I think you can abstract travel and exploration a lot to "board game mode" and still have player engagement as "my character does X," simply because very few people really WANT to RP every step of the way through the jungle - as evidenced by the fact that it takes a particular sub-genre of movie or novel to find stories where that much attention is paid to those details. Or Tolkien, which I acknowledge is popular (for reasons I honestly cannot grasp; the moment multiple pages were spent telling me about a rock's life from the moment it was shaken loose from a mountain face to the point it wound up in Bilbo's boot, and it made no difference at all to the story, I gave up on it).

Anyway, "how fast do you travel?" and "Which hex are you going to?" and "Are you doing anything in this hex?" are all pretty abstract questions that nevertheless describe accurately the level of detail that the PCs themselves are likely thinking about in strategic terms. Sure, they may also be wondering when they should stop for lunch, but they also are enjoying actual vistas and views (or suffering horrifying stenches and stultifying same-ness of tree after tree) while the players literally can't, because the DM isn't going to be able to give them a VR experience.

Making sure decision points and rolls make an actual difference is crucial to engaging gameplay. The trick with an RPG is to let players describe things their characters are doing to accomplish stuff, and make some judgments as to how that helps them along (or doesn't, as the case may be). The players' choices, particularly when they want to go into detail about what their PCs do to accomplish something, should always be consequential. Well, "always" with, I suppose, the exception of when they literally can't be. "I flap my arms really hard" doesn't result in anything meaningful, most likely, unless the player has a really good plan. But you get the idea.