OOTS #1245 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Psyren

2021-10-04, 08:27 PM

Sunny can still centre-eye any spell V comes up with though.

Almost any (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html) :smallwink:

given this net development. I think it's a reminder that they are in a dungeon, nay a series of dungeons, that has entirely been created and filled by Serini. there is practically no way to beat her as I see it except holding her hostage in some way in order to get out of the space filled with creatures which may be more or less her allies or friends.

Therefore, reasoning with her may be the only possibility. That, or more and more monsters come out of the woodwork until the order is completely overwhelmed and end up in the same situation that the Paladins are in.

Or, maybe there is some daring against all odds escape the Order will undergo to get out of the dungeon. Of course, the odds are all for an against all odds scenario, as Elan just pointed out to me.

They are very much trying NOT to get to "the rest of the dungeon," as doing so may weaken its defenses. So far everyone has gotten lucky because Team Evil are blithering idiots and didn't think a rogue would be a good idea to bring to an epic dungeon :smalltongue:

Reboot

2021-10-04, 08:32 PM

Almost any (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0955.html) :smallwink:

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

Ezekiel

2021-10-04, 08:35 PM

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

Reboot

2021-10-04, 08:37 PM

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

Polymorph gets suppressed by an AMF though, no? Also, I don't think it gets blocked by a creature anyway, else Haley could just have kept herself between Sunny and her bag of holding.

Blue Dragon

2021-10-04, 08:42 PM

YEESSS‼‼ One of my favorite monsters ever finally show up! Keep it coming, Giant!

Psyren

2021-10-04, 08:46 PM

...I feel like I'm missing a joke...

I assume he means polymorphing Blackwing into a giant roc which would then block Sunny's line of vision. (Maybe)

Polymorph gets suppressed by an AMF though, no? Also, I don't think it gets blocked by a creature anyway, else Haley could just have kept herself between Sunny and her bag of holding.

Sorry, I forget that not everyone might be as versed with 3.5 rules minutiae this late into the comic's run.

I was actually referring to Wall of Force, which specifically persists in an antimagic field. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) Now that V knows Sunny is there, they can block his center eye with that spell.

DreamCreator

2021-10-04, 08:47 PM

They are very much trying NOT to get to "the rest of the dungeon," as doing so may weaken its defenses. So far everyone has gotten lucky because Team Evil are blithering idiots and didn't think a rogue would be a good idea to bring to an epic dungeon :smalltongue:

Oh because the Order are supposedly in a dungeon zone that is *not* filled with continuously regenerating creatures, unlike the spaces Team Evil has been crawling in.

I see your point, but the Order will fight to save itself, so I think my statement still stands that there may be nigh unlimited monsters that could come to aid Serini, beyond what the Order could cope with. It seems like a probable way to tell the story, given the situation as laid out in the backstory and current storyline thus far.

Psyren

2021-10-04, 08:51 PM

Oh because the Order are supposedly in a dungeon zone that is *not* filled with continuously regenerating creatures, unlike the spaces Team Evil has been crawling in.

I see your point, but the Order will fight to save itself, so I think my statement still stands that there may be nigh unlimited monsters that could come to aid Serini, beyond what the Order could cope with. It seems like a probable way to tell the story, given the situation as laid out in the backstory and current storyline thus far.

Unlimited monsters in the dungeon as a whole - probably. But she specifically lured them into an enclosed area for her AMF cone gambit, so I suspect that capturing her again is the most likely outcome to this interlude.

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)

DreamCreator

2021-10-04, 08:55 PM

Unlimited monsters in the dungeon as a whole - probably. But she specifically lured them into an enclosed area for her AMF cone gambit, so I suspect that capturing her again is the most likely outcome to this interlude.

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)

I would prefer for that to happen. The first part, not her accidentally blowing up the gate. I think she's actually really smart but just dealing with a strong case of I can't believe these fools are our main protagonists.

danielxcutter

2021-10-04, 09:00 PM

gatemansgc

2021-10-04, 09:04 PM

The piercer is a creature from an older edition. I believe it's a vermin. I'm unsure if there's a 3.5 conversion, but they're known for only getting to attack once and then being useless thereafter, so Haley basically ignored the (extremely weak) hit and ran after Serini.

Attempts to modernize them (e.g. Tome of Horrors in PF) made them closer to traps than actual creatures, to represent their one-and-done nature.

well not fully useless, when i was trying to look them up i saw they had a weak acidic skin if you tried to attack them barehand. but still really weak.

Peelee

2021-10-04, 09:06 PM

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

If the idea is to make you, specifically, frustrated, rather than the reader in general, I assume you mean.

Because I, for one, am enjoying the comic as is.

Ruck

2021-10-04, 09:12 PM

I would prefer for that to happen. The first part, not her accidentally blowing up the gate. I think she's actually really smart but just dealing with a strong case of I can't believe these fools are our main protagonists.

Well, I don't know if she even knows they're the protagonists, or thinks in that way, the self-awareness of OOTS-world in general aside. I generally agree with you, although I'd phrase it as "These fools who keep blowing up gates say they're here to protect mine? Thanks, but no thanks."

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

I mean, I didn't expect her to roll over at the first sign of her plan going wrong. The fight will take however long it needs to take.

Aside, on second read I really enjoyed Serini's weapon of choice against Belkar, taking advantage of and turning those heightened halfling senses on their head.

hroþila

2021-10-04, 09:12 PM

Personally I love Serini and everything about this fight ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Potatopeelerkin

2021-10-04, 09:28 PM

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

Seward

2021-10-04, 09:50 PM

So, what happened to the piercer?

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

RatElemental

2021-10-04, 09:56 PM

well not fully useless, when i was trying to look them up i saw they had a weak acidic skin if you tried to attack them barehand. but still really weak.

They can also crawl back up the walls and do it again, eventually. Fight's probably over by then though. Usually there'd be a lot more than one, and usually they'd take advantage of a roper ambush to pick off fleeing injured targets, too.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-04, 09:59 PM

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that (also{scrubbed})

also this adds more fuel to my theory that:
1) serini thinks the order are a bunch of bumbling oafs
2) serini thinks that she's better then the order and since she lost to xykon the order stands no chance

JonahFalcon

2021-10-04, 10:03 PM

Serini has a real potpourri of monsters at her command, doesn't she?

And real potpourri, too.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-04, 10:06 PM

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

honestly, that's realistic for most ambush predators, if their ambush fails or they're caught out in the open they're really vulnerable

I think the trick with piercers is that they usually fall in groups of 20 or so

what I honestly find weird is how the piercer managed to hit haley at all since I'm pretty sure you get a reflex save, maybe she rolled a 1

Ralanr

2021-10-04, 10:09 PM

Belker actually tried to talk her down. I just want to point that out.

Belkar's development has by far been my favorite in the comic.

Yendor

2021-10-04, 10:12 PM

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that (also {scrub the post, scrub the quote} )

Ha! I really hope that was intentional.

Psyren

2021-10-04, 10:25 PM

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again :smallamused:

danielxcutter

2021-10-04, 10:28 PM

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again :smallamused:

I did like that at least, yes.

Darth Paul

2021-10-04, 11:31 PM

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 12:28 AM

Putting myself in Serini's shoes, she had a stable situation going (Team Evil wandering from dungeon to dungeon and making no signs of progress). Now a bunch of do-gooders who haven't objectively done much good, as far as the Gates are concerned, is on the verge of cluing Team Evil in on the whole secret of the dungeon, with one ambush that has at best a 50/50 chance of success; maybe worse, since only 1 of their confrontations with Xykon ended in a win, and then they failed to close the deal. And blew up a Gate in the process. They're troublemakers who are barging into her house and rearranging the furniture.

Honestly, I can't see a player in that situation not behaving pretty much as Serini does. In her own mind, she's the PC here and the OOTS are bit players who mess things up wherever they go.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad. Yeah, he'll be the big head honcho for a while, but some adventurers will eventually knock him off, it won't be the end of the world or anything.

When, well, yes, it would be the end of the world. It could be the end of more than just the world, even, it could be the death of pantheons, and all the souls that have passed onto their final destinations.

I understand why she feels the way she does and believes what she does, but at the end of the day she's still wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

merget

2021-10-05, 12:29 AM

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm guessing you're too young to have watched M*A*S*H? (The main character was "Hawkeye" Benjamin Franklin Pierce, {scrubbed}. I watched Animaniacs too, but a song from one episode wasn't as memorable for me as a name repeated countless times in a series that ran for over a decade.)

Liquor Box

2021-10-05, 12:41 AM

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

In the circumstances, that would probably have been the better option for him this time.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad.

The real cause of her flawed assumption is not a lack of information, but a poor analysis of the information she does have. Based on what she knows about Xykon, that he intends to use the Snarl to control the world (and perhaps that he's already destroyed a gate), it's pretty naive not to factor in the significant risk of Xykon releasing the Snarl.

Especially for V, as Resilient Sphere of Grasping Hand, etc. need only for Sunny to open their main eye again to be wasted slots. V is making the right call here by not doing any of that and trying to talk.
Surely, V could still cast spells with instant effect, like disintegrate.

We haven't seen Minrah for a couple of strips. Perhaps she is neutralising poison on Roy.

Ruck

2021-10-05, 01:21 AM

Putting myself in Serini's shoes, she had a stable situation going (Team Evil wandering from dungeon to dungeon and making no signs of progress). Now a bunch of do-gooders who haven't objectively done much good, as far as the Gates are concerned, is on the verge of cluing Team Evil in on the whole secret of the dungeon, with one ambush that has at best a 50/50 chance of success; maybe worse, since only 1 of their confrontations with Xykon ended in a win, and then they failed to close the deal. And blew up a Gate in the process. They're troublemakers who are barging into her house and rearranging the furniture.

Honestly, I can't see a player in that situation not behaving pretty much as Serini does. In her own mind, she's the PC here and the OOTS are bit players who mess things up wherever they go.

Yep. From her perspective it's pretty reasonable to not want the Order to get involved.

Except that she's operating on a flawed assumption caused by incomplete data, namely that if Xykon does take the final gate... meh, it won't be all that bad. Yeah, he'll be the big head honcho for a while, but some adventurers will eventually knock him off, it won't be the end of the world or anything.

When, well, yes, it would be the end of the world. It could be the end of more than just the world, even, it could be the death of pantheons, and all the souls that have passed onto their final destinations.

Sure, which is why I ultimately expect this to resolve with the Order informing Serini of how this actually works and getting her assistance in some way. Of course, she doesn't know that she doesn't know that, so from her perspective and what she does know, keeping the Order away from her Gate, when keeping her Gate intact is her top priority, is sound reasoning.

huh, an epic level rogue with multiple back-up plans, imagine that ({scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Ahahah, I didn't even catch that, and I feel like I really should have.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 01:22 AM

Putting myself in Serini's shoes,

Her what now? :smallbiggrin:

The real cause of her flawed assumption is not a lack of information, but a poor analysis of the information she does have. Based on what she knows about Xykon, that he intends to use the Snarl to control the world (and perhaps that he's already destroyed a gate), it's pretty naive not to factor in the significant risk of Xykon releasing the Snarl.

And even if he doesn't, the significant risk that the very adventurers she's counting on to topple him do the same. Including inadvertently with an epic battle, the very one her own dungeon is making worse by making TE stronger.

I'm not so sure. She seems to believe she can still win, and seeing as this is all taking place in Serini's Playhouse, I'm reticent to believe it will end so easily. Especially for V, as Resilient Sphere of Grasping Hand, etc. need only for Sunny to open their main eye again to be wasted slots. V is making the right call here by not doing any of that and trying to talk.

I actually want him to open his eye again. MORE BLOODFEAST! :smallamused:

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 02:09 AM

I suspect Bloodfeast is going to be the precise thing that prevents Sunny from opening their eye and starting the clownfest all over again in the first place.

Also, question - if Serini really is acting irrationally or otherwise "wrong" outside merely not knowing the Godsmoot stuff, would you guys call that bad writing? I wouldn't, not at all, and honestly I'd get that because the old lady's been through a lot. It's just that if you ask me from pure logic and rationality, her position's crap... and before you say anything, logic is important but at the same time it's a little overrated.

King of Nowhere

2021-10-05, 02:16 AM

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 02:21 AM

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.

If you mean about her getaway plan, eh not really. She's using what she has well enough. It's the other things about her that grind my gears.

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 02:50 AM

So this is still going on? With that said, if Serini is down to using air freshener as weapons, she moght be running out of tricks.

I don't see Minrah in this strip. Could she be helping her downed comrades?

I wonder if there's a way to explain actions here within the framework of the rules, or if we should just see that as an artistic interpretation.
An attack would not break the grapple (or a pin). Serini could've just escaped grapple, I guess, but getting out of a pin would require two grapple checks at least, and she's probably both weaker than Haley due to her old age, and also smaller, getting -4 to her check. She could've used escape artist skill to break the pin/grapple, but that would take at least two rounds.
One possible interpretation would be that the piercer bull rushed Haley moving her out of Serini's space, but it doesn't look drawn that way.
It is my understanding that we don't want to go (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html) there (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html).

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.
I think you have that backward. Being in the team she was in probably goes a long way to explain her attitude. That and her brush with death.

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 03:02 AM

So this is still going on? With that said, if Serini is down to using air freshener as weapons, she moght be running out of tricks.

I don't see Minrah in this strip. Could she be helping her downed comrades?

Hmm. I dunno if she can even cast Stone to Flesh, but she's probably strong enough to cast Neutralize Poison. Belkar and Durkon can do it, but they've got plenty of other things to cast as well.

It is my understanding that we don't want to go (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0232.html) there (https://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0233.html).

I hear that grappling has somehow even gotten worse in 5e.

[mr.turner meme]Mearls[/mr.turner meme]

I think you have that backward. Being in the team she was in probably goes a long way to explain her attitude. That and her brush with death.

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Yeah, I think she's making terrible choices for poor reasons, it's just that the reasons for those reasons are understandable.

georgie_leech

2021-10-05, 03:14 AM

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Yeah, I think she's making terrible choices for poor reasons, it's just that the reasons for those reasons are understandable.

Whether her lack of trust in the OotS is itself justified, I really have to object to characterizing needing to actually trust your would-be allies for them to be allies as a bad take. Just because someone says they're on your side does not mean they are on your side.

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 03:23 AM

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 03:42 AM

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.
It depends on what you mean by side. Coarsely speaking, some people define sides by your enemies, and some people define sides by your allies and comrades.

I think the latter meaning makes more sense, because of the connotation of phrases like "on the same side". And with the latter meaning, well, the relevant maxim is that the enemy of my enemy is not my friend: they're just my enemy's enemy.

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-05, 03:43 AM

Well Serini's plucky at least, but I wonder how long it's going to take the Order to lose patience with a beaten-but-not-willing-to-admit-it old rogue.

Tecnically in the next round Sunny can go eyestalk barrage again, or AMF, and we know there is at least one monster left. While the order still have two members down, and we dont know how many magic things Serini has.

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-05, 04:15 AM

(But then, its Serini, so who knows, she might charge off and accidentally break the gate herself or something equally dumb.)
If she did that, she would be then half dumb than the order and as dumb as the paladins or Redcloak. Xykon become the smartest as the universe is destroyed both phisically and logically.

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-05, 04:17 AM

If the idea is to make the readers as frustrated as possible, it’s succeeding quite well. :smallfrustrated:

Seriously, my sympathy for her is reaching new and creative limits the more I see her. She’d better get a verbal smackdown at the end of this, that’s for sure.
Speak for yourself, I am a reader loving her really hard.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 04:25 AM

Such arrogance! It's a miracle serini was even part of a team at some point.
and remember, she was the reasonable one!

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 04:30 AM

I'm guessing you're too young to have watched M*A*S*H? (The main character was "Hawkeye" Benjamin Franklin Pierce, {scrub the post, scrub the quote}. I watched Animaniacs too, but a song from one episode wasn't as memorable for me as a name repeated countless times in a series that ran for over a decade.)

yeah, early 30's + M*A*S*H wasn't really a thing here, but that does sounds like a better reference

gerryq

2021-10-05, 05:05 AM

Hmm, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that Serini has even more tricks up her sleeve, but I really thought we were heading into the denouement of this skirmish. (Which, maybe we still are; it's not like I see Serini winning it, in the end.)

I'd hazard a guess that we still are. Serini shows that she is resourceful and never gives up; the Order point out that they have demonstrated the same.

Ruck

2021-10-05, 05:08 AM

Also, question - if Serini really is acting irrationally or otherwise "wrong" outside merely not knowing the Godsmoot stuff, would you guys call that bad writing? I wouldn't, not at all, and honestly I'd get that because the old lady's been through a lot. It's just that if you ask me from pure logic and rationality, her position's crap... and before you say anything, logic is important but at the same time it's a little overrated.

Logic is really a tool, something we use to achieve a result; it doesn't define our goals or our values or our passions, to say nothing of our starting premises or assumptions. (Aside, one look around the internet should readily confirm how many people who define themselves as logical and rational just really aren't aware of their own biases or the assumptions they make in their premises.)

Serini's goal is to protect the gate. A group of people who say they want to help but have a history of destroying gates show up. It is rational to conclude that achieving the goal of protecting the gate requires removing them from the area.

It may be the wrong conclusion, but it was arrived at through a fairly sound reasoning process with the information available.

I'm just not sure what revealing this process to have actually been irrational would improve.

I'd hazard a guess that we still are. Serini shows that she is resourceful and never gives up; the Order point out that they have demonstrated the same.

Solid observation.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 05:37 AM

Well I'm not frustrated, in fact I found V's eloquent smackdown pretty enjoyable and hope we get more of it after she fails yet again :smallamused:
I must have missed that. I saw V saying she should have picked up the call, and then effectively "no, u", but I certainly did not see a verbal smackdown of any sort, eloquent or otherwise.

Surely, V could still cast spells with instant effect, like disintegrate.
Yes, but put me in camp "V won't try to disintegrate Serini".

I actually want him to open his eye again. MORE BLOODFEAST! :smallamused:
Oh, same. But still, V is doing the best thing right now by trying to talk to her instead of slinging spells.

kingcheesepants

2021-10-05, 05:44 AM

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

Liquor Box

2021-10-05, 05:44 AM

Whether her lack of trust in the OotS is itself justified, I really have to object to characterizing needing to actually trust your would-be allies for them to be allies as a bad take. Just because someone says they're on your side does not mean they are on your side.

You might need to trust someone for them to be your ally. You don't need to trust them to simply refrain from attacking them.

If she did that, she would be then half dumb than the order and as dumb as the paladins or Redcloak. Xykon become the smartest as the universe is destroyed both phisically and logically.

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.

Yes, but put me in camp "V won't try to disintegrate Serini".

Well, that would mean V, a neutral character, showing more restraint that someone willing to petrify a character then let her drop and shatter.

But if not disintegrate, V has a host of disabling type spells that could be cast on Serini or Sunny which have instant effect so wont be bothered by the anti-magic ray. Crushing Despair for example, is one of the spell Sunny cast on the Order.

I can definitely understand that Serini doesn't want the order around and that she views them as more of a threat than Xykon. However that being said what is she gaining by continuing to fight them and refusing to speak at all? Sure maybe they won't have any new or useful information and maybe they won't be able to convince each other of anything. But how is fighting like they are in any way a better plan than at least trying to talk to each other and explain things? It feels like she's supposed to be smart but her blatant refusal to talk at all even when they've come all that way and are actively interfering, well it feels like she's just running with an idiot ball at this point. If they talk and can convince each other than great, if they talk and they can't convince each other of anything than she isn't in any worse of a position than she is now and in fact she could easily bring them to an even more secure and trapped out area of her dungeon to do the talking and thus be in a better tactical position if it comes down to fighting again. In short I don't see any in character reason why she wouldn't talk aside from idiocy (pride/arrogance is just a form of idiocy).

Good point. People suggested she shouldn't answer their sending because even letting them know she was alive was a disadvantage. But they know that now. She could try to mine them for information, with nothing to lose. Even if she learns no new information, she would be in a better position to attack them again, or if she wanted to escape they'd probably just let her go.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 06:03 AM

Well, that would mean V, a neutral character, showing more restraint that someone willing to petrify a character then let her drop and shatter.
If you are trying to imply that single actions can be used to roughly determine alignment, then V, a neutral character, has committed genocide. So I'm going to wait for a bit longer before I make any judgment calls on Serini's alignment. After all, she has showed restraint in not attempting genocide, so far as we know. :smallwink:

But if not disintegrate, V has a host of disabling type spells that could be cast on Serini or Sunny which have instant effect so wont be bothered by the anti-magic ray. Crushing Despair for example, is one of the spell Sunny cast on the Order.
My point is right now both V and Sunny are silent on the magic spewing front, which is ideal for ceasing hostilities and starting communication. If they start blasting, then Sunny will likely move to protect, and the whole thing starts all over again. They want to talk to Serini, but she is resistant to it because she has zero trust in them. They need to prove their value, and that's not going to happen by slinging around Disintegrates.

JonahFalcon

2021-10-05, 06:09 AM

Lien: So... this is taking a while.
O-Chul: Hm? Oh, I've already broken out of my manacles. Come on, let's see what is going on.

EDIT:

By the way, this scuffle has been going on for what, 5 minutes? For the reader, it's been months, but remember that everything is going on fast so it isn't like Serini has been given months to consider what's going on. It's still the heat of the moment.

Shining Wrath

2021-10-05, 06:11 AM

The odds that the takedown of Serini occurs exactly under Franklin are pretty close to zero.
Since Minrah is offscreen I assume she's helping Roy and Durkon.
Potpourri as the anti-Belkar weapon is pretty funny.

Liquor Box

2021-10-05, 06:26 AM

If you are trying to imply that single actions can be used to roughly determine alignment, then V, a neutral character, has committed genocide. So I'm going to wait for a bit longer before I make any judgment calls on Serini's alignment. After all, she has showed restraint in not attempting genocide, so far as we know. :smallwink:

Oh, I thought I'd seen you say you thought she was not evil. Fair enough if you want to withhold judgment.

The implication was that if V was willing to refrain from being potentially lethal in this fight as a neutral character, it may suggest that being willing to use lethal force in this fight might be south of that, expecially if you were the attacker. I agree though that one act wouldn't define either of them.

My point is right now both V and Sunny are silent on the magic spewing front, which is ideal for ceasing hostilities and starting communication. If they start blasting, then Sunny will likely move to protect, and the whole thing starts all over again. They want to talk to Serini, but she is resistant to it because she has zero trust in them. They need to prove their value, and that's not going to happen by slinging around Disintegrates.
Well going by her "you got beat by an old lady so your no chance against Xykon", defeating her would prove their value.

Yes, it may be that the Order still sees Serini as a potential ally rather than an obstacle (how she appears to see them) despite her saying s they were not on the same side. If so, a disabling spell would allow them to talk to her while holding the advantages - perhaps a stick to prod her with if she says things they don't like.

The odds that the takedown of Serini occurs exactly under Franklin are pretty close to zero.

Could Franklin have moved into position in the round that Serini was restrained?

As someone else pointed out, Serini probably rolled very luckily to break the pin though.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 06:29 AM

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-05, 06:31 AM

Peelee

2021-10-05, 06:33 AM

Well going by her "you got beat by an old lady so your no chance against Xykon", defeating her would prove their value.

Yes, it may be that the Order still sees Serini as a potential ally rather than an obstacle (how she appears to see them) despite her saying s they were not on the same side. If so, a disabling spell would allow them to talk to her while holding the advantages - perhaps a stick to prod her with if she says things they don't like.

Your first assertion does not follow. If I say, "you can't ride a horse, you can't even sbalance while sitting on a chair!", and you proceed to sit on a chair fine, then you have proven nothing at all in regards to riding a horse. You have simply overcome a low hurdle.

Further, the Order wants to help Serini, and also wants Serini to help them. Serini, meanwhile, did not want to help the paladins and did not believe the paladins were even capable of helping her. Your attempt at role reversal there falls apart immediately.

Ezekiel

2021-10-05, 06:35 AM

Sorry, I forget that not everyone might be as versed with 3.5 rules minutiae this late into the comic's run.

I was actually referring to Wall of Force, which specifically persists in an antimagic field. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) Now that V knows Sunny is there, they can block his center eye with that spell.

So...Wall of Force persists but Forcecage does not? :smallsigh:

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 06:38 AM

Oh, I thought I'd seen you say you thought she was not evil. Fair enough if you want to withhold judgment.

The implication was that if V was willing to refrain from being potentially lethal in this fight as a neutral character, it may suggest that being willing to use lethal force in this fight might be south of that, expecially if you were the attacker. I agree though that one act wouldn't define either of them.

you don't have to be neutral if you recognise that it's better to attempt to restrain a character who could be a boon to you (hell, I'd argue that even evil characters can recognise this)
also plenty of good order characters have used lethal force in the past

furthermore using potentially lethal force to neutralise a party with superior members when you think that otherwise they're going to destroy the world doesn't make one evil or even non-good (although I do think chaotic neutral is likely)

short: the order think serini can be of use to them , serini doesn't think so of the order thus the difference in tactics, not allignment per se

Liquor Box

2021-10-05, 06:40 AM

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

You're right, and that's why she's being a bit silly. Her goal is to protect the gate, and from what she knows the Order might have information to help her do that. They may not, but there's no downside to talking.

Your first assertion does not follow. If I say, "you can't ride a horse, you can't even sbalance while sitting on a chair!", and you proceed to sit on a chair fine, then you have proven nothing at all in regards to riding a horse. You have simply overcome a low hurdle.

True, it doesn't prove they can beat Xykon. But it does prove that her initial estimate of them was too low (presumably she thought she might win or she wouldn't have spring this ambush), so it might make her re-evaluate whether they might be powerful enough. Especially if she previously didn't know much about them.

Further, the Order wants to help Serini, and also wants Serini to help them. Serini, meanwhile, did not want to help the paladins and did not believe the paladins were even capable of helping her. Your attempt at role reversal there falls apart immediately.

Where do you get that they want to help her or they want her help? All we know is that they wanted to talk to her, a rational step for anyone who may be able to get more information from another party.

But even if they did want to work with her, they may not now.

If they still want to work with her, I don't see how defeating her will make her receptiveness work (as noted above, given her comment to the paladins, showing their power might make her more receptive). The possibility of a cordial introduction is gone, they are fighting, so its hard to see how winning that fight would detract from any of their goals.

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-05, 06:42 AM

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.

Well that's a stretch.
If the paladins and the order werent here, Serini wouldn't had atacked them.
If shapphire guard wouldn't had massacre Redcloaks village, he would had never met Xykon, and the later would have died long ago.
If Roy didn't want to do some sidequest, V wouldn't had killed a teenager dragon, and therefore he/she wouldn't had commited genocide later.

...

What a way to avoid responsabilities...

warmachine

2021-10-05, 06:42 AM

Piercers are INT 1 mollusks, making them too stupid to be trained, so Franklin must be awakened. Toormuck must have a whole army of awakened animals.

Liquor Box

2021-10-05, 06:59 AM

Well that's a stretch.

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???

If the paladins and the order werent here, Serini wouldn't had atacked them.
If shapphire guard wouldn't had massacre Redcloaks village, he would had never met Xykon, and the later would have died long ago.
If Roy didn't want to do some sidequest, V wouldn't had killed a teenager dragon, and therefore he/she wouldn't had commited genocide later.
What a way to avoid responsabilities...

The difference between those points (with the possible exception of the paladins being at the north pole) and what Serini did, is that it was perfectly foreseeable that keeping a diary with top secret information might lead to it falling into the wrong hands. It would not have been at all forseeable that Roy going to recover some starmetal would lead to V committing familicide.

This was the world's biggest secrets, and Serini put it in a diary. To go back your nuclear weapon analogy, it would be like someone writing the access codes to launch the nukes in their diary and then wandering around alone with the diary in their pocket (anyone with access who did this would go to jail). A ten year old knows that you have to be careful about putting their secrets in their diary. It was predicable that by writing about the gates in her diary a villain would get the information and go after the gates, and that was a partial cause of the destruction of the gates so far.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 07:27 AM

True, it doesn't prove they can beat Xykon. But it does prove that her initial estimate of them was too low (presumably she thought she might win or she wouldn't have spring this ambush), so it might make her re-evaluate whether they might be powerful enough. Especially if she previously didn't know much about them.

Where do you get that they want to help her or they want her help? All we know is that they wanted to talk to her, a rational step for anyone who may be able to get more information from another party.

But even if they did want to work with her, they may not now.

If they still want to work with her, I don't see how defeating her will make her receptiveness work (as noted above, given her comment to the paladins, showing their power might make her more receptive). The possibility of a cordial introduction is gone, they are fighting, so its hard to see how winning that fight would detract from any of their goals.
A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.

2.) OK, let's say the Order only wants to talk to her. Your attempted role reversal still fails immediately because that is an incredibly poor method to extract information you want to learn.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 07:38 AM

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???

The difference between those points (with the possible exception of the paladins being at the north pole) and what Serini did, is that it was perfectly foreseeable that keeping a diary with top secret information might lead to it falling into the wrong hands. It would not have been at all forseeable that Roy going to recover some starmetal would lead to V committing familicide.

This was the world's biggest secrets, and Serini put it in a diary. To go back your nuclear weapon analogy, it would be like someone writing the access codes to launch the nukes in their diary and then wandering around alone with the diary in their pocket (anyone with access who did this would go to jail). A ten year old knows that you have to be careful about putting their secrets in their diary. It was predicable that by writing about the gates in her diary a villain would get the information and go after the gates, and that was a partial cause of the destruction of the gates so far.

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-05, 07:43 AM

Hehehe. Franklin Piercer.

I know OotS is probably the last comic where this is a valid nitpick, but naming a monster {scrubbed} does bend my brain a bit.

Also, I don't know what's funnier to me, Serini's completely childish insults towards V, or the fact that V actually seems to be genuinely offended by them.

Simultaneously anticipating and dreading all the hay that the "Serini is a moron" contingent will make with it though

EDIT: Oh god it's already started

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 07:55 AM

Hehehe. Franklin Piercer.

I know OotS is probably the last comic where this is a valid nitpick, but naming a monster {scrubbed} does bend my brain a bit.

If it helps, you can tell yourself that in-universe it isn't a reference. It just coincidentally happened to match something from real-life.

Linworm

2021-10-05, 08:01 AM

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia.

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-05, 08:03 AM

So what makes piercers a kinda dumb monster is they have no attack when they aren't falling from a ceiling. And they are really really slow. So they get one attack and get butchered for XP usually. But it is also a fairly reasonable tactic to just ignore them, especially in versions of D&D where they aren't worth any xp to the current party.

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 08:21 AM

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-05, 08:24 AM

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 08:31 AM

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

no no, that would make sense, no, it's called a roper (presumably because it has tentacles with which it can grab you)

Peelee

2021-10-05, 08:31 AM

Unrelated???

It's things like this that are why I love D&D

I presume it's called the pierger and that's how you remember which one is which...

Close. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/roper

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-05, 08:58 AM

the absolutely funny part is that instead of saying that mimics could disguise themselves as any part of the room they have 3 distinct monsters who disguised themselves as the ceiling (lurker), the floor (trapper) and the walls (stun jelly)

JonahFalcon

2021-10-05, 09:13 AM

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia.

Question for you:

How long has the fight between her and the Order being going on for?

Psyren

2021-10-05, 09:15 AM

I must have missed that. I saw V saying she should have picked up the call, and then effectively "no, u", but I certainly did not see a verbal smackdown of any sort, eloquent or otherwise.

Precisely - it was the most eloquent "no u" I've seen in any webcomic thus far :smallamused:

So...Wall of Force persists but Forcecage does not? :smallsigh:

Rules as written, yes. As intended, Forcecage should probably resist it too (at least the solid box configuration which is explicitly made of walls of force), but absent a specific reference it was up to the Giant to make a ruling. Obviously, his ruling back then was pretty contentious on the forums, but he wasn't technically wrong by RAW.

Piercers are INT 1 mollusks, making them too stupid to be trained, so Franklin must be awakened. Toormuck must have a whole army of awakened animals.

Int 1 can learn three tricks actually; "Fall when I say 'Franklin'" is simple enough to be one.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 09:24 AM

Logic is really a tool, something we use to achieve a result; it doesn't define our goals or our values or our passions, to say nothing of our starting premises or assumptions. (Aside, one look around the internet should readily confirm how many people who define themselves as logical and rational just really aren't aware of their own biases or the assumptions they make in their premises.)

Serini's goal is to protect the gate. A group of people who say they want to help but have a history of destroying gates show up. It is rational to conclude that achieving the goal of protecting the gate requires removing them from the area.

Here's the odd thing: she says they had four chances. Four, not three. The Order and Guard cannot be held responsible for Lirian's Gate at all for anyone who has anything remotely approaching accurate information. Dorukan's, Soon's, Girard's maybe. But not Lirian's. I'm not sure if most of the Order was born back then.

It may be the wrong conclusion, but it was arrived at through a fairly sound reasoning process with the information available.

I'm just not sure what revealing this process to have actually been irrational would improve.

I think she's got a point or two(Xykon is indeed scary OP, plus the phylactery is a factor). I just don't think she's right.

Also for me, her decisions being at least partly based on her biases, trauma, and emotional baggage makes her more... human would be the right term. I mean, Kraagor got unmade sealing this Gate, her team almost killed each other if she hadn't had them all swear an oath never to see each other again, no matter what soon after that, and Xykon blackfired half her body and left her for dead and stole her diary with the coordinates. I'm not inclined to think those didn't influence her decisions at all.

I mean, you guys can't seriously think her only flaw is not knowing about the Godsmoot stuff or the Order's actual plans, right? I thought giving your characters flaws and having them being relevant was Storytelling 101.

Question for you:

How long has the fight between her and the Order being going on for?

Not the guy you were responding to, but it's only been like, less than a minute I think. Since a round is six seconds.

Also for the record, I don't agree with her decisions even accounting for her lack of crucial knowledge, but senile dementia is probably a bit much.

JSSheridan

2021-10-05, 09:34 AM

Thanks Giant!

elros

2021-10-05, 09:39 AM

I am enjoying this update and overall like Serini, but I admit that she is a "spanner in the works" right now.
That said, I am curious what other allies and tricks Serini has planned. It seems that Haley is the only one who is able to do anything against her, so I wonder when the rest of the OOTS is going go do.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 09:43 AM

If they're up, awake, and outside the AMF, there's a bunch of ways for them to hinder or hold Serini. That's why she brought Sunny in the first place, and turning on the AMF would turn off the Baleful Polymorph. Unless Sunny turns upside down again they can't take out the entire Order at once like they did earlier, so that's at least a round or two more time for retaliating.

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 09:55 AM

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

Lemarc

2021-10-05, 09:57 AM

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

If they just had a stalactite arbitrarily fall on you it would feel very much like "rocks fall, everyone dies". Having it be a predatory animal gives it the barest ghost of an excuse. Which is important, because although they're funny, they are no joke when they land on you.

JonahFalcon

2021-10-05, 09:58 AM

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

Because there's a mimic sealing the cave and Serini isn't Friend of All Mimics?

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 09:58 AM

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?

That is the joke, though perhaps mimics couldn't do that in earlier editions?

Lemarc

2021-10-05, 10:03 AM

That is the joke, though perhaps mimics couldn't do that in earlier editions?

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 10:08 AM

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 10:13 AM

Wait, if you want a monster to disguise themselves as a stalagmite, why wouldn't you use a mimic?
Ropers are much beefier than mimics.

Probably just down to the fact that a mimic will wipe a first-level party whereas a piercer is a glorified falling rock.
Stalagmite. The ground ones. Stalactites are the ceiling ones.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 10:15 AM

Actually, wouldn't a roper wipe out a first-level party too?

also if Franklin goes outside does that make him a snowpiercer

Lemarc

2021-10-05, 10:23 AM

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D.

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia. Piercers are more of a pour encourager les autres deal.

Ropers are much beefier than mimics.

Stalagmite. The ground ones. Stalactites are the ceiling ones.

Ah right. I forgot about ropers, I don't think I've ever met one.

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 10:30 AM

also if Franklin goes outside does that make him a snowpiercer
I would like to hop aboard this train.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 10:32 AM

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia. Piercers are more of a pour encourager les autres deal.

Assuming "back in the day" means Gygaxian, the game had very different assumptions back then. Because many aspects of your character were completely randomized, bad stat arrays were common and death was expected. You essentially had a whole lot of people adventuring who had no business adventuring. Getting attached to your character wasn't as prevalent as it is now, and the expectation was to have several backups ready to go for when your current one carked it.

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-05, 11:09 AM

I think she's got a point or two(Xykon is indeed scary OP, plus the phylactery is a factor). I just don't think she's right.

Also for me, her decisions being at least partly based on her biases, trauma, and emotional baggage makes her more... human would be the right term. I mean, Kraagor got unmade sealing this Gate, her team almost killed each other if she hadn't had them all swear an oath never to see each other again, no matter what soon after that, and Xykon blackfired half her body and left her for dead and stole her diary with the coordinates. I'm not inclined to think those didn't influence her decisions at all.

I mean, you guys can't seriously think her only flaw is not knowing about the Godsmoot stuff or the Order's actual plans, right? I thought giving your characters flaws and having them being relevant was Storytelling 101.

I can't speak for everyone in the pro-Serini camp (well, not pro-Serini per se, but you know. The camp opposite yours) but I don't believe I have never once expressed the idea that she's being perfectly unbiased and logical and that her perspective wasn't informed by her trauma and baggage. If I have, I apologize, because I did not properly express my point if so. I firmly believe that--I don't think she would be nearly as jaded or cynical as she is if that weren't the case (given what little we've seen of her pre-Kraagor and pre-trollification).

But one's perspective being informed by those things doesn't make them wrong or bad or deserving of a callout by the narrative. I don't think she arrived at her conclusions through purely rational thought (then again, I don't believe any being has ever arrived at a conclusion through purely rational thought.) But I still think her perspective is still defensible from her point of view, and I think a lot of the arguments people have made attempting to refute that have been unfair or flawed in themselves.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 11:11 AM

Okay, that was kind of cool, but I guess now we know that Serini can pull a functionally unlimited amount of creature allies out of her proverbial behind to prolong the fight as long as story dictates, so I'm guessing we still have a few months to go before any productive dialogue actually takes place between her and the Order, if at all given her determination to be as unreasonable as possible.

This is starting to feel like the whole deal with the Godsmoot and Hel's lengthy conga-line of nesting backup plans.

I mean, I didn't expect her to roll over at the first sign of her plan going wrong. The fight will take however long it needs to take.

What Ruck said. This strip was put in to show that Serini is stubborn and will keep fighting even if she is presented with reasons to stop. Showing her continuing to run away as they banter back and forth would get the same talking bits out there, but allow the scene to remain dynamic and show us how set in her ways Serini has become. I wouldn't really say I prefer that over a "talking heads" strip one way or another, but I'm not upset about either choice.

The pacing might be frustrating right now when we're reading the comics strip by strip, but in book form this entire fight is going to rocket past.

Belkar really has made progress. Back in the day he would have just stabbed her. Too bad it didn't pay off for him this time.

Agreed. Really like his development on display here!

With that said "I decide who's on my side" is a terrible position to hold.

Speaking as someone who has DMed loads of NPCs that my PCs immediately try to adopt – with or without their consent – "I decide who's on my side" is much more relatable if you're playing a character who doesn't respect the PCs, even if their goals are aligned.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 11:25 AM

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her?

drazen

2021-10-05, 11:29 AM

Serini sucks, and I'm not so sure she wasn't part of the Scribblers' initial quarrel problems with the attitude she shows here.

Hard to say if she was always this way or if getting attacked, almost killed, and permanently disfigured made her this way. The personality doesn't remotely match what we saw in the diary excerpts.

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons. Although I suppose the party member best at talking things out has been unconscious since the start of the current fight.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 11:56 AM

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons.
Disagree hard; the strip usually does a good job of subverting that trope and gives antagonists less cartoonish motivations for being in opposition, and none of those three strike me as being cartoonish.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 11:57 AM

I don't think that the OOTS can win Serini over by proving they have a good chance of beating Xykon.

For one, they'd need to be able to prove that to a neutral party. And.... haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahahaha, nooooooo. They're still in the "plucky underdogs" territory of things, they might be able to win in an objectively strategic sense if they take the right fight in the right way, but that's about it. It's going to take Story Magic to make the victory happen, which is a good thing, because this isn't a D&D campaign, this is a work of fiction with a D&D setting, victory merely needs to be possible given the visible events not likely.

But for two, and more importantly, Serini's a hero who went on a quest that involved the fate of worlds, she's one of the few people who know most of the truth about the nature of the planet, she's been through stuff and done stuff that just about no one else will ever even understand...

...and Xykon nearly killed her in a Surprise Round.

And has killed two of her former party members, who were both epic-ly powerful (literally, in fact!).

The only way that that the OOTS is going to get her on their side is to get her to see that letting Xykon win is not an option. That Xykon winning is the same as blowing the gate up, except maybe worse. At that point, a small chance of victory becomes preferable to none, and even Serini's abject terror of the lich won't be so much of an issue.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 12:02 PM

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her?

Yeah, in this instance I think she's being too stubborn, though I don't know if you're making a bigger point. I chose that description to be fairly neutral, because I was moreso arguing about how "Serini uses the Piercer to escape and keep fighting/resisting" is a useful story beat, rather than a pointless extension of a scene as TheNecronomicon seemed to be saying.

Hard to say if she was always this way or if getting attacked, almost killed, and permanently disfigured made her this way. The personality doesn't remotely match what we saw in the diary excerpts.

My money's on that. The loss of her companion Kraagor (which seemed to hit Serini the hardest (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)), the subsequent dissolution of the Scribble, 60+ years of trying to move on, followed by getting ambushed and disfigured, then watching Xykon raise hell on the remaining gates using her own stolen journal, and knowing that her one-time friends are being wiped out one by one (either by age or Xykon)...this is all a lot to handle, and I wouldn't blame even the happy-go-luckiest hobbit halfling for becoming a lot more cynical, arrogant, and stubborn.

Miko, Andi, Serini... the Order seems to run into people who make everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons. Although I suppose the party member best at talking things out has been unconscious since the start of the current fight.

Eh, I really don't see how Serini is being stupid or petty. A real condescending know-it-all jerk, sure. But comparing Andi's childish desire to captain a single airship doesn't really correspond to Serini's chosen tactics for defending the final Pillar of Reality that her own team constructed as their life's work. I can't think of a less petty reason than "if I don't interfere, this existence will be permanently erased."

Dion

2021-10-05, 12:06 PM

Franklin Piercer?

{scrubbed}

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 12:10 PM

Franklin Piercer?

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

No, this is Patrick.

Seward

2021-10-05, 12:11 PM

what I honestly find weird is how the piercer managed to hit haley at all since I'm pretty sure you get a reflex save, maybe she rolled a 1

Traditionally it is an attack vs AC.

Although they're low level monsters and she's got uncanny dodge to ignore surprise so it got pretty lucky.

KorvinStarmast

2021-10-05, 12:12 PM

I'm genuinely starting to wonder if Serini suffers from some form of senile dementia. No, and it's rather ageist to make that assumption. :smalltongue: (Not sure how many people close to you have suffered from that)

I was under the impression throwing a monster that'd wipe out a party was entirely in the spirit of AD&D. Now and again, yes, but the party was usually more careful in exploring the dungeon beyond "kick in the door" if it expected to survive. Paranoia was a virtue.

I don't know about back in the day, but in my gaming circles it's always been considered polite to have some kind of warning sign before the whole party gets eaten. The worst of these gotcha monsters, the trapper, you don't meet until you're about eight levels down in the dungeon and have presumably achieved an appropriate level of paranoia. Kind of; the Lurker Above certainly ranked right up there as a meta monster.
Ah right. I forgot about ropers, I don't think I've ever met one. A fine and dangerous monster. I still use them in 5e.

I assume by "set in her ways" that is not meant to be a compliment to her? Stubborn and inflexible is good for some things, and not so much for others. Her self confidence, having been an Epic Level PC in a party that saved the world from a cosmic horror, is warranted but it doesn't mean that she can't consider another perspective. At the moment, she won't, based on her ultimate goal.

Franklin Piercer?

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} Sure, why not? Rich is from the US, the joke works.

Seward

2021-10-05, 12:21 PM

So on re-reading....

V is going to keep the potpourri as a Belkar repellent. Thats what V's last 2 sentences on final panel are about.

And possibly the title of the strip "sales boom" of poutpourri to keep Belkar away from random citizens.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 12:25 PM

Traditionally it is an attack vs AC.

Although they're low level monsters and she's got uncanny dodge to ignore surprise so it got pretty lucky.
Uncanny dodge is irrelevant since she's in a grapple, AFAICT.

Precure

2021-10-05, 12:39 PM

What are the chances that that piercer was coincidently standing over Haley? I bet that room is full with them.

drazen

2021-10-05, 12:46 PM

Yeah, in this instance I think she's being too stubborn, though I don't know if you're making a bigger point. I chose that description to be fairly neutral, because I was moreso arguing about how "Serini uses the Piercer to escape and keep fighting/resisting" is a useful story beat, rather than a pointless extension of a scene as TheNecronomicon seemed to be saying.

My money's on that. The loss of her companion Kraagor (which seemed to hit Serini the hardest (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)), the subsequent dissolution of the Scribble, 60+ years of trying to move on, followed by getting ambushed and disfigured, then watching Xykon raise hell on the remaining gates using her own stolen journal, and knowing that her one-time friends are being wiped out one by one (either by age or Xykon)...this is all a lot to handle, and I wouldn't blame even the happy-go-luckiest hobbit halfling for becoming a lot more cynical, arrogant, and stubborn.

Eh, I really don't see how Serini is being stupid or petty. A real condescending know-it-all jerk, sure. But comparing Andi's childish desire to captain a single airship doesn't really correspond to Serini's chosen tactics for defending the final Pillar of Reality that her own team constructed as their life's work. I can't think of a less petty reason than "if I don't interfere, this existence will be permanently erased."

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

Elan or Belkar, sure, they ain't that bright. Roy was an idiot for about a week after his best friend died and was vampirized. But V, Haley, and Durkon are plenty intelligent in their own right, and O-Chul and Minrah aren't dumb, either. Lien isn't stupid either, but she probably is more brash than most of the rest of the allies.

Seward

2021-10-05, 01:04 PM

Uncanny dodge is irrelevant since she's in a grapple, AFAICT.

good point. Haley's AC sans dex bonus probably isn't that great, especially given how under-geared the Order seems to be for their level.

Dion

2021-10-05, 01:14 PM

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff.

Skull the Troll

2021-10-05, 01:18 PM

Disagree hard; the strip usually does a good job of subverting that trope and gives antagonists less cartoonish motivations for being in opposition, and none of those three strike me as being cartoonish.

Drazen didnt say cartoonish, he said stupid and petty. I think I would definitely categorized their motivations that way. Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case)

hungrycrow

2021-10-05, 01:27 PM

Drazen didnt say cartoonish, he said stupid and petty. I think I would definitely categorized their motivations that way. Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case)

I'm not sure that's her deal, she seemed to have a positive relationship with Girard after the breakup. She also shows an equal amount of ire towards V as she does Haley.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 01:41 PM

You don't think she's being petty to basically call an 18 INT Wizard a doodoo head/dumbass?

I was under the mistaken belief that when you said she was "[making] everything overly difficult for stupid, petty reasons" you were, in fact, actually talking about her reasons for her behavior, and not the quality of the insults she chooses to sling. If you want to get offended on V's behalf for somebody calling them childish names, knock yourself out. It's just not pertinent to your original point at all.

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup.

[citation needed]

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 01:58 PM

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.

Not entirely true, they can choose an opportune moment to fall, and also aim better, and coordinate with other piercers, and collaborate with ropers. In 5e they're even noted as being the juvenile form of ropers.

Ruck

2021-10-05, 02:20 PM

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...

The coordinates were also in code. Xykon was only able to crack the code because he already knew where Lirian's Gate was, so he reverse-engineered the location of the others.

I can't speak for everyone in the pro-Serini camp (well, not pro-Serini per se, but you know. The camp opposite yours) but I don't believe I have never once expressed the idea that she's being perfectly unbiased and logical and that her perspective wasn't informed by her trauma and baggage. If I have, I apologize, because I did not properly express my point if so. I firmly believe that--I don't think she would be nearly as jaded or cynical as she is if that weren't the case (given what little we've seen of her pre-Kraagor and pre-trollification).

But one's perspective being informed by those things doesn't make them wrong or bad or deserving of a callout by the narrative. I don't think she arrived at her conclusions through purely rational thought (then again, I don't believe any being has ever arrived at a conclusion through purely rational thought.) But I still think her perspective is still defensible from her point of view, and I think a lot of the arguments people have made attempting to refute that have been unfair or flawed in themselves.

I was going to write a reply to daniel, but this is close enough to my thoughts that I don't really need to add more.

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help.

That's not it at all. She doesn't want to accept help from these humans (and dwarves, and elf, and halfling) because they have a track record of destroying the thing she's trying to preserve.

Quizatzhaderac

2021-10-05, 02:21 PM

Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. I don't want to sound racist, but every time something's one wrong in my life, it's been one of those damned human's fault.

Usually me.

I love the idea that someone decided "I'm going to design a monster that can disguise itself as a stalactite" and then just declined to add anything that would make it more dangerous than if the DM just had a real stalactite fall on a player.I guess it at least explains why the stalactite, after millions of years forming, it falls the second you walk under it.

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff.My take was, I acknowledge there's a lot of stuff in your head, but nothing that makes you worth talking to.

BloodSquirrel

2021-10-05, 02:24 PM

A new strip always has a way of putting the positions people dug their heels into while arguing about the last strip into perspective.

Serini's really out of excuses now. You can't claim that talking to the order would give away anything important at this point, and she's now prolonging a conflict that she has a clear disadvantage in when her entire supposed "justification" for her actions was keeping conflict away from the gate. Meanwhile, her grade-school level retort to V's reasonable statement really doesn't bode well for anyone who was thinking that this was going to lead to the Order being put in their place by Serini's biting commentary on their methods.

KorvinStarmast

2021-10-05, 03:11 PM

She said V was double noodle soup.

That’s a thick hearty soup, indicating v’s head is full of twice as much good stuff. And brains look a little bit like a bunch of noodles compressed inside that hollow part of the skull.

Miko is the poster child for "Lawful Stupid," Andi can't get over someone younger than her getting promoted over her, and Serini can't accept that humans can have valid points or be able to help. She listens to monsters just fine, I suspect were going to find out that she blames humans for the Scribble breakup. (they were all human or nearly so in Girards case) Kraagor was a dwarf, but him being dead renders that point moot, beyond him being dead getting all of the humans to disagree so violently.

The coordinates were also in code. Xykon was only able to crack the code because he already knew where Lirian's Gate was, so he reverse-engineered the location of the others. Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material? :smallconfused:

hamishspence

2021-10-05, 03:14 PM

Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material? :smallconfused:
Both - the main comic brings up the deciphering of the code:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html

and SoD has Xykon's speech to Redcloak that explains how he deciphered the code - he started with the location of Lirian's gate, which had already been destroyed at that point - and now, they are setting off for Dorukan's.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 03:52 PM

Meanwhile, her grade-school level retort to V's reasonable statement really doesn't bode well for anyone who was thinking that this was going to lead to the Order being put in their place by Serini's biting commentary on their methods.

That position is a thing that you made up in your own head (I'm certain there's a word for that...?): if any commenters claimed that Serini was going to "put the Order in their place" with her "biting commentary," they were so few and far between as to be functionally nonexistent.

There is no scenario where Serini comes out of this with the logical and moral high ground. At best, she can criticize them for destroying Gates 2-4, but that argument has no legs given the Godsmoot and Thor info about what happens if Redcloak gets access to a gate.

You might be thinking of the position that Serini will not herself be "put in her place" with "biting commentary." That one tends to have more prevalence. But even people who hold some version of that position (like myself) still acknowledge that Serini's not going to "win" any arguments here. She's wrong, and she'll be proven wrong. Full stop. Barring new information that doesn't exist in the narrative yet (gotta hedge my bets!).

We're just arguing about the degree of that wrongness, and whether or not she will be confirmed as a big stinky doodoo head who should've behaved differently with the info she already had.

I don't want to sound racist, but every time something's gone wrong in my life, it's been one of those damned human's fault.

Usually me.

Hey yeah, wait just a goshdarn minute, I think you're on to something here!

Hey everybody! It's all Quizatzhaderac's fault!

Fyraltari

2021-10-05, 03:54 PM

Kraagor was a dwarf, but him being dead renders that point moot, beyond him being dead getting all of the humans to disagree so violently.
And Lirian was an elf.

Hmm, is that SoD material or is that Main Comic material? :smallconfused:

SoD.

BloodSquirrel

2021-10-05, 03:58 PM

That position is a thing that you made up in your own head (I'm certain there's a word for that...?): if any commenters claimed that Serini was going to "put the Order in their place" with her "biting commentary," they were so few and far between as to be functionally nonexistent.

There is no scenario where Serini comes out of this with the logical and moral high ground. At best, she can criticize them for destroying Gates 2-4, but that argument has no legs given the Godsmoot and Thor info about what happens if Redcloak gets access to a gate.

You might be thinking of the position that Serini will not herself be "put in her place" with "biting commentary." That one tends to have more prevalence. But even people who hold some version of that position (like myself) still acknowledge that Serini's not going to "win" any arguments here. She's wrong, and she'll be proven wrong. Full stop. Barring new information that doesn't exist in the narrative yet (gotta hedge my bets!).

We're just arguing about the degree of that wrongness, and whether or not she will be confirmed as a big stinky doodoo head who should've behaved differently with the info she already had.

This is not even a remotely accurate description of the previous discussion thread. If you want to distance yourself from the comments made there, then fine, but the pro-Serini camp was no where even close to as moderate as you are claiming they were.

pendell

2021-10-05, 04:17 PM

Bravo! I hope everyone is taking notes because this is how you conduct a D&D ambush. Absolutely textbook on Serini's part!

She:
-- Gathered intelligence on the intruders.
-- Made a plan.
-- Selected the spot for the ambush.
-- Had a retreat planned just in case the encounter went wrong.

Right now we're seeing the "break contact, live to fight again some other day" contingency plan. I suspect, as at least one person mentioned above, that there's more than one such creature in the roof of the cave. Falling damage is nothing to high-level adventurers, but things falling from the ceiling can nonetheless cause a distraction at a crucial moment, allowing Serini to make her getaway.

That is , I hope she's breaking contact to prepare another ambush later because otherwise I'd have to significantly revise my opinion of her tactical ability downward. She's a rogue. It's a class that relies on stealth, secrecy, first-strike advantage, and flanking. All of those elements are now lost. The enemy party is rapidly getting on its feet, her ally is wounded, the party is now spread out. When I run this through my own decision matrix, the answer that comes out is "the odds are against Serini, time to withdraw."

On the other side of the coin, it is absolutely in the Order's best interest to catch and subdue her now if at all possible. She's a rogue. Her class isn't designed to beat down opponents with big sticks in standup combat nor is she designed to blow stuff up with her mind or laugh at the laws of physics. She is at her best laying a prepared ambush for them in the dungeon she designed with the aid of all her friends. She is at her worst in a meeting engagement where she has no time to prepare and the enemy is fully alerted. So the Order's best chance is if they can capitalize on their initial success to grab her now. Otherwise they'll get ambushed again, with potentially worse results.

I would say the Order gets more out of this fight than Serini does, if it ends now. They've learned a lot about her and her capabilities while, in exchange, they have lost few resources that can't be recovered by a night's sleep. But we're still no closer to winning her cooperation. She doesn't respect them. She has no trust in their ability to win against Xykon and absolute confidence that their blundering will make things worse. Also, this may not be the first adventuring party she has encountered in this dungeon. She may have had to deal with many adventuring parties and feels towards them the way anyone would feel to random sales cold calls. Sure, they believe they're the good guys and they are the only possible solution to the story's problems, but how often has Serini met people like that? She was part of such a group, once.

I'm not sure what it would take to pierce her wall of cynicism and bad experience, to re-kindle the idealism that would lead her to fight alongside the Order rather than against them. But that is what has to happen if she's not going to be a permanent antagonist. Perhaps O-chul can help some how? If anyone's read his story, he's quite the peacemaker.

Here's the deal I would offer Serini, if I were the Order: Help us to stop Xykon. Sure, him winning is better than destroying the world, but isn't option #3, where Xykon gets smashed into bony pieces, a better outcome? In exchange, we promise not to destroy the gate even if Xykon takes it. If we lose, you're no worse off than you were. If we win ... then we all sit down for a celebratory slap-up meal prepared by Chef Belkar and spiced with Aunt Serini's Amnesia special. We go to sleep and wake up a thousand miles away with no memory of what happened or how we got there, but we have incontrovertible proof ( Xykon's Crown, the Scarlet Mantle) showing us that we've completed our quest and can go home. That way her secret is safe, Xykon is vanquished, the world is saved.

All the same I can't help feeling the last gate will be destroyed somehow. The tragedy of the Scribble was that they could not work together , and so each defended their gate as they saw best, refusing to cooperate with any others. Each chose a particular philosophy and way to defend their chosen gate. Each was destroyed by the shortcomings of that same philosophy.

1) Lirian's gate, guarded by nature, was destroyed by an unnatural abomination, namely Xykon, who was immune to most natural effects and diseases. Also by a fire, since the trees holding the gate were not prepared to stand around and be burned when Redcloak's errant Flame Strike got too close.

2) Dorukan relied on his magic, puzzles, and carefully prepared defenses. He was defeated when he was drawn out of his carefully prepared dungeon when Xykon flaunted Lirian's corpse in front of him. Then he got into a fight with a sorcerer who didn't need special tactics or abilities, he just kept zapping Dorukon over and over with energy drain until he was dead. Xykon's not afraid to oppose subtlety with brute force.

3) Soon relied on the honor of a paladin. The gate was destroyed by a walking, talking collection of all the ways a paladin can be played wrongly.

4) Girard refused to trust anyone but his own family. As a result, because he didn't have any defenses EXCEPT his own family, the gate was left defenseless when an errant familicide killed them all.

... Come to think of it, for all their time together as an adventuring party the Scribblers don't really seem to like each other very much.

If that pattern follows, how will Serini's gate be destroyed? Well, we can't do the "don't trust anyone" schtick again because we've already done that with Girard. If I had to guess, it's her reliance on monsters and refusal to trust other PCs that will be her downfall. Intelligent monsters ARE people in this world, but there may be plenty of dumb animal type monsters who might wind up rampaging and destroying the gate.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Lemarc

2021-10-05, 04:18 PM

Assuming "back in the day" means Gygaxian, the game had very different assumptions back then. Because many aspects of your character were completely randomized, bad stat arrays were common and death was expected. You essentially had a whole lot of people adventuring who had no business adventuring. Getting attached to your character wasn't as prevalent as it is now, and the expectation was to have several backups ready to go for when your current one carked it.
I meant the 70s. I mostly play 1E but the mores might have changed a bit, we expect to get wiped from time to time and keep a couple backups, but we also expect after a wipe for the DM to be able to point at what we did wrong and laugh in our face.

Kind of; the Lurker Above certainly ranked right up there as a meta monster.
The Lurker is nasty but the Trapper is just sadism. I have solemnly limited myself to no more than one per campaign and only near the very bottom of very large dungeons.

elecampane

2021-10-05, 04:19 PM

I'm apprehensive to join the Serini debate, but I guess I can't help myself

Nope, twice as dumb as the Order. If not for Serini writing instructions for Xykon to follow, all of the gates would be intact.
Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads people were agreeing with Serini's logic about how the Order of the Stick is to blame for the destruction of previous gates.
I mean, if anything, the order of the Scribble is more to blame here:
Lirian was overconfident and couldn't resist the desire to push the appreciation of the Nature onto the evildoers which brought about her failure and demise;
Dorukan had installed the self-destruct rune into his own gate (per oots0278 because he thought destroying one gate is better than it falling into the wrong hands, and we now now he was right);
Soon's own defenses (i.e. the Sapphire Guard, which Mika was a product of) destroyed Soon's gate;
Girard's defenses are difficult to theorize about as the comic doesn't actually cover them, but I doubt his illusions would've worked well against Redcloak's True Seeing and Xykon's Dispel Magic, and also his strategy of "Do not trust and do not hire anyone outside close family" backfired on him, anyone else would be more or less ok in the same situation (but that can't really be blamed on him, no one expects Familicide)
And finally Serini provided Xykon with the info on all the Gates locations. And no, Diary wasn't most secure with her, it would me most secure destroyed, there's no excuse carrying such an important information with you when everyone (you included) decided it should be destroyed. And "But it's in code!" is a really ****ty excuse in a world where spells such as "Comprehend languages", "Divination", and "Contact other plane" exist.

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it
And giving them a big helping of an amnesia soup by force is obviously not working for her at the moment. If she would at least try to talk to them to lull them into a false sense of security with plans to later sneak poison into their food, that would at least seem reasonable. This feels like a chess player who obviously lost but insists on making all the moves necessary to checkmate them, just wasting everyone's time.

A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.
It's easy to draw a false equivalence and then dismantle the strawman, but the order have killed Xykon once, and stole his phylactery at another confrontation, it's the Serini refusing to examine the evidence right in front of her that leads her to not trusting the evidence.

Int 1 can learn three tricks actually; "Fall when I say 'Franklin'" is simple enough to be one.
Except when the Piercer misses, it is often killed by the fall, so might be a bit hard to train that. Perhaps possible with a feather fall, but that might mess up Piercer's aim

what's even funnier is that they also have an unrelated monster which disguises themselves as stalagmites
I mean, in real life there's a lot of totally different animals disguising themselves as similar rocks, leaves, and bark

What are the chances that that piercer was coincidently standing over Haley? I bet that room is full with them.
I thought so too, and in fact when Serini called its name, she might've been choosing which Piercer has to fall. Then again, Piercers have a speed of 5 feet, and could slowly adjust their position on the ceiling

good point. Haley's AC sans dex bonus probably isn't that great, especially given how under-geared the Order seems to be for their level.
I mean, she did buy an armor for 16,000gp in oots0675 which is an exact price of +4 armor, so even without dex her AC should be at least 16

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 04:27 PM

I'm not sure what it would take to pierce her wall of cynicism and bad experience, to re-kindle the idealism that would lead her to fight alongside the Order rather than against them. But that is what has to happen if she's not going to be a permanent antagonist. Perhaps O-chul can help some how? If anyone's read his story, he's quite the peacemaker.
If I respected the writing less, my bet would be firmly on Team Evil interrupting their conflict forcing an impromptu team-up.

If I respected the writing even less than that, my bet would be on the party soundly defeating Serini and her spontaneously converting to their way of thinking. With even less respect, her capitulation would be phrased something like respecting their strength.

That said, I'm not saying it's necessarily bad to go in those directions; I expect that if the Giant plans the story to go in those directions it will be well enough written. But even then I expect the Giant to have more to say on the philosophical conflict rather than just brushing it aside with a tropey resolution.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 04:28 PM

Here's the deal I would offer Serini, if I were the Order: Help us to stop Xykon. Sure, him winning is better than destroying the world, but isn't option #3, where Xykon gets smashed into bony pieces, a better outcome?

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway. Even Redcloak ultimately believed that part, they just lost him on the "and the Dark One won't be around to help make the next one better for goblins, if there even are goblins," bit. They just have to get her to sit still and shut up long enough to listen.

Except when the Piercer misses, it is often killed by the fall, so might be a bit hard to train that. Perhaps possible with a feather fall, but that might mess up Piercer's aim

Just use a flumph some pillows :smalltongue: or impact foam.

I meant the 70s. I mostly play 1E but the mores might have changed a bit, we expect to get wiped from time to time and keep a couple backups, but we also expect after a wipe for the DM to be able to point at what we did wrong and laugh in our face.

Then yep.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 04:34 PM

This is not even a remotely accurate description of the previous discussion thread. If you want to distance yourself from the comments made there, then fine, but the pro-Serini camp was no where even close to as moderate as you are claiming they were.

I feel like I've been pretty plugged into the Serini debate since her first appearance in this book, so this assertion doesn't track for me. I'd welcome prominent examples of what you're talking about, though I recognize that's usually a thankless job in forum arguments.

That is , I hope she's breaking contact to prepare another ambush later because otherwise I'd have to significantly revise my opinion of her tactical ability downward. She's a rogue. It's a class that relies on stealth, secrecy, first-strike advantage, and flanking. All of those elements are now lost. The enemy party is rapidly getting on its feet, her ally is wounded, the party is now spread out. When I run this through my own decision matrix, the answer that comes out is "the odds are against Serini, time to withdraw."

Yeah, I think she's gonna run too. Wondering how Sunny will get out of the top of this cylinder once Mama Toormuck is gone -- do you think she has an escape hatch up there somewhere?

3) Soon relied on the honor of a paladin. The gate was destroyed by a walking, talking collection of all the ways a paladin can be played wrongly.

4) Girard refused to trust anyone but his own family. As a result, because he didn't have any defenses EXCEPT his own family, the gate was left defenseless when an errant familicide killed them all.

Fair (and funny) point on #3, but I can't fault the Draketooths for not specifically predicting "Genocide, The Spell" as a potential weakness in their defenses. Illusions being weak to undead/truesight might be a more practical oversight to criticize.

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway.

Fitting that you brought up Redcloak, because I wouldn't be surprised if Serini offers a version of the same response: "According to a random dwarf who I have no reason to believe." That is, until they kick her proverbial heinie and make her listen, which is increasingly looking like the necessary outcome.

Baelzar

2021-10-05, 04:36 PM

Well Serini's plucky at least, but I wonder how long it's going to take the Order to lose patience with a beaten-but-not-willing-to-admit-it old rogue.Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 04:52 PM

With even less respect, her capitulation would be phrased something like respecting their strength.

Well, that is the philosophy ascribed to Kraagor. I don't think Serini really follows it herself, but she might be sentimental enough that she'd state it as a reason even if it isn't.

Ezekiel

2021-10-05, 05:17 PM

Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

If it was me, I'd take one of the many missed shots she fired at Haley and stab her with the poisoned arrow. Let her sleep it off.:smallamused:

Psyren

2021-10-05, 05:27 PM

Too long, as usual. FIRST you make her helpless, THEN have a chat. Dammit.

Well, the problem there is - most of the ways to render someone helpless but still conscious enough for a conversation, are also ways that an Epic Rogue could likely slip out of.

The Order should still try of course, just pointing that out.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 05:51 PM

Fair (and funny) point on #3, but I can't fault the Draketooths for not specifically predicting "Genocide, The Spell" as a potential weakness in their defenses. Illusions being weak to undead/truesight might be a more practical oversight to criticize

Really, just the fact that Girard so badly misjudged Soon and his Paladins that he lied about the location of his gate did more damage than even Familicide did.

If he hadn't done that, then the whole business with Elan's father wouldn't have been needed, and even with Familicide destroying all the guardians of the gate Roy and co would've had ample time to find the base, come to terms with what happened, get a handle on the base, prepare defenses and figure out a way to launch a good ambush. Maybe after getting some backup sent too, they'd have time for that.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 05:58 PM

Really, just the fact that Girard so badly misjudged Soon and his Paladins that he lied about the location of his gate did more damage than even Familicide did.

If he hadn't done that, then the whole business with Elan's father wouldn't have been needed, and even with Familicide destroying all the guardians of the gate Roy and co would've had ample time to find the base, come to terms with what happened, get a handle on the base, prepare defenses and figure out a way to launch a good ambush. Maybe after getting some backup sent too, they'd have time for that.
Really? You rate whatever defense the OotS would have been able to improvise to be more effective than what Girard's clan could have mustered with actively maintained defenses?

Ruck

2021-10-05, 06:00 PM

I'm apprehensive to join the Serini debate, but I guess I can't help myself

Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads people were agreeing with Serini's logic about how the Order of the Stick is to blame for the destruction of previous gates.
I mean, if anything, the order of the Scribble is more to blame here:

The Order directly took the actions to destroy two of the Gates. We're all responsible for our own actions; I think Roy Greenhilt himself would cop to that responsibility.

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 06:09 PM

Yeah, I think she's gonna run too. Wondering how Sunny will get out of the top of this cylinder once Mama Toormuck is gone -- do you think she has an escape hatch up there somewhere?

If Sunny is the one appearance unexpected ally, Serini hightailing it now and leaving them behind is a handy way to accomplish that without also having Serini being an ally.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 07:21 PM

Really? You rate whatever defense the OotS would have been able to improvise to be more effective than what Girard's clan could have mustered with actively maintained defenses?

Okay, a bit hyperbole, but Roy and co knew what they were dealing with, they had large portions of Xykon's feats and spell list, experience dealing with the Lich, lines of communication with those keeping tabs on Xykon's status in Gobbotopia... knowing the enemy that you're going up against helps a lot.

And its probable that the Draketooth clan wasn't exactly a cabal of high-level characters. Probably a lot closer to the Sapphire Guard in terms of individual power levels, since they hadn't been going on grand adventuring quests. And, like all the other gates aside from Serini's, the very predictable defenses would've likely been simple for an Epic-level lich to overcome.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 07:40 PM

Serini's really out of excuses now.
Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

Literally the only "deal" they need to offer her is the truth - that if Xykon does succeed in securing the gate, even peacefully, the other gods are probably going to unravel the world anyway.
Yes, exactly! The just need to figure out a way to be able to convince her they are worth listening to.

.It's easy to draw a false equivalence and then dismantle the strawman, but the order have killed Xykon once, and stole his phylactery at another confrontation, it's the Serini refusing to examine the evidence right in front of her that leads her to not trusting the evidence.
And that is all information that we know, but we don't know it's information Serini knows. Further, even if she does, both of those instances were flukes that cannot be reproduced. Even further, even if they could be reproduced, she believes that are a greater danger to the Gate than Xykon, largely due to her almost certainly knowing that they deliberately chose to destroy a Gate (two, if we're counting the Order and the Paladins together, which I tend to when examining Serini's motivations). The issue is entirely one of information and communication, from what I can tell. Not a lack of examination.

Wysper

2021-10-05, 07:49 PM

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 07:56 PM

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

Depending on how far into the epics she is, a simple handle animal check to rear basically any creature from infancy will make them tame. It's dc 15 + hd for animals, 30 + hd for magical beasts, 35 + hd for vermin, and 40 + dc for literally any other type of creature including abberations.

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-05, 08:09 PM

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. I know she decided to guard her gate with every monster she could think of. But why are so many working WITH her?

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

Peelee

2021-10-05, 08:10 PM

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

That bit in quotes is, quite literally, word for word what I was going to suggest.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 08:47 PM

Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 08:51 PM

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

I don't see how you can think her level of reasonableness is changing unless you didn't believe prior to this strip that she truly opposes the Order's meddling in gate affairs.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 08:52 PM

Sure, but she's getting more and more unreasonable about all this. They're trying to be civil, even Belkar's giving up an easy Full Attack on a seemingly-unarmed person to try to talk her down, and she's continuing to fight. When one side's going "Look, we should be on the same side here, lets calm down" and the other is going "Screw you, more damage coming your way, punks!", you can guess where my sympathies are going to lie.

Again, from her perspective, the deliberately destroyed at least one Gate. She does not trust them to not destroy hers. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they wouldn't. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they could adequately explain that they wouldn't.

From Serini's perspective why do they deserve an audience? They're not entitled to one just because they're there.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 08:54 PM

Yes, exactly! The just need to figure out a way to be able to convince her they are worth listening to.

She seems willing to listen to Sunny, and he's so far been much more reasonable, so I'd go with that.

I don't know 3.5 very well, so I don't know what monsters are and aren't sapient, but I'm guessing the answer for a lot of them is "She treated them like people."

Well yes, but a lot of them also have been conditioned to attack on sight thanks to other (more typical) adventurers, so there's still an interesting story to be told in how she overcame that particular hurdle.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 09:00 PM

She seems willing to listen to Sunny, and he's so far been much more reasonable, so I'd go with that.

That's a good point, Sunny may well be the avenue to Serini. Though, as always, I wouldn't call her unreasonable.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 09:26 PM

Again, from her perspective, the deliberately destroyed at least one Gate. She does not trust them to not destroy hers. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they wouldn't. They have done nothing whatsoever to demonstrate that they could adequately explain that they wouldn't.

From Serini's perspective why do they deserve an audience? They're not entitled to one just because they're there.

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

I think this is the disconnect I have with you when it comes to Serini: I understand why she's acting the way she is, but by no means do I find her actions acceptable or responsible. She is refusing to get any information from some of the only people who have had anything so much as resembling success against Xykon. She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 09:27 PM

I feel like I've been pretty plugged into the Serini debate since her first appearance in this book, so this assertion doesn't track for me. I'd welcome prominent examples of what you're talking about, though I recognize that's usually a thankless job in forum arguments.

I’d love to, but isn’t it against the forum rules to bring stuff over from other threads? If it’s not, I remember at least one prominent example.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 09:37 PM

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 09:49 PM

Peelee

2021-10-05, 10:02 PM

Because mature, responsible people charged with protecting the fabric of the universe keep a healthy amount of "what if I'm wrong" going on in the back of their heads to prevent them from going all-in on a doomed plan when the stakes are literally all of creation?

I think this is the disconnect I have with you when it comes to Serini: I understand why she's acting the way she is, but by no means do I find her actions acceptable or responsible. She is refusing to get any information from some of the only people who have had anything so much as resembling success against Xykon. She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct.

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini.

She has no reason to believe that they have information she doesn't, though. The only reason she might even think they do is because they may have claimed to, which from her perspective would be purely self-serving. If they even claimed to to start with. If they did have information, they could have included it in the Sendings. Hell, if they did, then I'll be on board with not finding her actions acceptable based on what she has to go on.

Story time! So I used to work for a surgeon. She had surgery days, standard days she'd do her surgeries. A good number of people packed in on those days for their surgeries. Well, there was this one patient, she had a very specific, difficult issue going on. We set her up with a joint surgery with mine and another surgeon at another practice. Both doctors had to clear a good chunk of their schedules to do this operation, due to the logistics involved.major disruption for both practices, but the patient has an issue that they can fix, so we do it. This patient, thus, has two surgery schedulers working in tandem walking her through the entire procedure, everything she needs to do to prep for it, after care, everything she needs to know. One of those things, of course, is to be vaccinated. She is told this multiple times by both offices. This is stressed heavily. She says that's not a problem. Come day of, she shows up, starts answering the standard questions, and says she hasn't been vaxxed.

The doctors were livid. Whole thing was called off, their mornings were shot, lot of people they could have seen had been rescheduled weeks back to make room for this woman. She tried to explain. They didn't let her. If she'd had a valid reason (spoiler alert, she didn't), she could have contacted either office ahead of time. Didn't. Just didn't get it and assumed they'd still do the operation.

Now, I'm not telling this story because it's analogous to the Order. It's not. What is analogous is that the doctors did not give two ****s about the "why". They were entirely disinterested in what the patient had to say once they knew a disqualifying factor for them. As far as they were concerned, she ****ed around and then found out. Refused to even let her reschedule it until she could show, to both offices, a card with both dates signed. She had lost any benefit of any doubt because she made a choice that they found completely unacceptable.

Thats Serini. The Order made a choice she finds completely unacceptable. They have lost any benefit of any doubt. They need to show hard evidence in some way to redeem themselves to her. To the best of our knowledge, they have not even attempted this. They simply just did the equivalent of calling the surgery scheduler and going, "well what if i said 'please'?" No. That's not going to cut it after the stunt that was pulled. Not for Serini.

Of course she's wrong, and they had good reason, and they have vital information she doesn't have. However, what they don't have is absolute right to be heard regardless. And that is my disconnect with everyone railing against Serini for having the gall to not kowtow to them. She has a perfectly good reason to not give them the time of day. They have done nothing to counter that. And yet Serini is a moronic, irrational egomaniac for not immediately responding to a group of Gate destroyers who may not even have anything relevant to say that she doesn't already know, and which is likely to be purely self-serving so that they can make sure the last Gate also goes kablooey so long as it stops Xykon from getting his hands on it, just like the last two times.

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 10:03 PM

But only a healthy amount. Note, incidentally, that the stakes also mean she can't afford to sacrifice her plan for idealistic reasons either.

The problem isn't that the OOTS' plans are too idealistic.

I mean, that is certainly a problem, sure, but that's not the problem here.

The problem here is that if everything goes as she expects, aka holding off Xykon for a while but he eventually gets control of the gate, the best case scenario is that the entire world will be destroyed.

You know, that thing that she's doing all of this to try to prevent.

The worst case scenario involves Redcloak's plan working out before the Gods can resolve their deadlock to destroy the world. That could mean the end of a whole lot more than just this one world.

That's why her arrogance is such a problem, and her refusal to get any info from any of the other good guys is becoming so damning: Because she just won't listen to the people who can correct those misconceptions and keeps fighting them, the only thing she's doing is making the very thing she doesn't want more and more likely.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 10:04 PM

The problem isn't that the OOTS' plans are too idealistic.
I was more referring to things like the idea talking things out should be the first resort or the default. That category of ideals.

P.S. Am I misremembering? I don't recall the Order really having a plan at all: the thing Serini caught them trying to do was a spontaneous improvisation.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 10:18 PM

Of course she's wrong, and they had good reason, and they have vital information she doesn't have. However, what they don't have is absolute right to be heard regardless. And that is my disconnect with everyone railing against Serini for having the gall to not kowtow to them. She has a perfection for reason to not give them the time of day. They have done nothing to counter that. And yet Serini is a moronic, irrational egomaniac for not immediately responding to a group of Gate destroyers who may not even have anything relevant to say that she doesn't already know, and which is likely to be purely self-serving so that they can make sure the last Gate also goes kablooey so long as it stops Xykon from getting his hands on it, just like the last two times.

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

I'm pretty sure I've never called Serini an idiot, and if I have, I was wrong to do so. I find the hyperbolic extremes people are going to with their reaction to her actions to be quite overblown (the whole "actually Serini is evil" stuff I've seen rolling around is just, ugh).

And... they have done things to counter that. They've had opportunities to kill her right there and have worked to de-escalate things. They placed themselves in a position to strike Xykon, instead of pressing in further to destroy the Gate. They've been trying to contact her, explicitly stating that they're trying to safeguard the gates, not destroy them. And they're still working on de-escalating things after she's badly poisoned two members and petrified another.

And while I wish you would avoid couching my arguments in the most insulting light possible (I definitely have not called her an 'uppity bitch not knowing her place'), I agree, it's not going in that direction.

The direction has been pretty clear: The Scribbles saved the world, and then royally f'd up the endgame because the (seeming, still don't see no body!) death of Kraagor broke them. They broke all ties, allowing them and/or their dungeons to be defeated in isolation as their assumptions about the awesomeness of their own specific sort of power left them vulnerable. They weren't able to handle the trauma of Kraagor's loss, and the echoes of that have nearly undone every single one of their achievements.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 10:27 PM

I'm pretty sure I've never called Serini an idiot, and if I have, I was wrong to do so. I find the hyperbolic extremes people are going to with their reaction to her actions to be quite overblown (the whole "actually Serini is evil" stuff I've seen rolling around is just, ugh).

And... they have done things to counter that. They've had opportunities to kill her right there and have worked to de-escalate things. They placed themselves in a position to strike Xykon, instead of pressing in further to destroy the Gate. They've been trying to contact her, explicitly stating that they're trying to safeguard the gates, not destroy them. And they're still working on de-escalating things after she's badly poisoned two members and petrified another.

And while I wish you would avoid couching my arguments in the most insulting light possible, (I definitely have called her an 'uppity bitch not knowing her place'), I agree, it's not going in that direction.

The direction has been pretty clear: The Scribbles saved the world, and then royally f'd up the endgame because the (seeming, still don't see no body!) death of Kraagor broke them. They broke all ties, allowing them and/or their dungeons to be defeated in isolation as their assumptions about the awesomeness of their own specific sort of power left them vulnerable. They weren't able to handle the trauma of Kraagor's loss, and the echoes of that have nearly undone every single one of their achievements.

You specifically haven't called her moronic, no. Most of my diatribe wasn't directed at you, but at the general vibe I see (there is an entire thread devoted to calling Serini a moron, for example). And while neither you now anyone else has described Serini as an uppity bitch who needs to know her place, that is the logical conclusion of expecting the Order to have the absolute right to be heard by her. Every argument I've seen has gone to the effect of "she woudlnt lose anything," or "she should know she doesn't know everything," or "the stakes are too high for her to-". Every single one hinges on her bieng in the wrong for not acquiescing to the Order, despite the fact that they destroyed Gates. Not a single one has ever tried to address the onus on the Order of needing to show their worth. From our perspective, we know their worth. From Serini's, she doesn't at all. And yet, despite pounding that drum over and over, I still have never seen anyone critical of Serini put any responsibility on the Order. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Serini needs to know her place, which is subservient to the Order. The colorful bits were me editorializing, and I apologize if it came across as accusing you or anyone else of thinking in such insulting terms. I didn't intend it to be taken that way, I just wanted to emphasize how distasteful I found that conclusion. But I cannot separate "Serini should have listened to the Order for whatever reason" from "they did not need to do anything on their own to earn the right to be heard".

Ruck

2021-10-05, 10:33 PM

Everything Peelee said in those last two posts goes for me as well.

Anitar

2021-10-05, 10:35 PM

How does one "prove they have the right to be heard" by someone who won't give them any chance to offer proof (or any other information, for that matter)?

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 10:40 PM

I still feel that people keep conflating the "I don't agree with Serini" opinions with "Serini is evil and needs to die painfully" opinions.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 10:42 PM

How does one "prove they have the right to be heard" by someone who won't give them any chance to offer proof (or any other information, for that matter)?

They had multiple Sendings. They certainly had chances to do so in those. And, again, if it comes to light that they did, then I will switch sides so fast I'll need some dramamine to help with the motion sickness.

But, that aside, I have to note again that I have yet to see anyone critical of Serini even suggesting that they need to, which I find problematic.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 10:45 PM

Not a single one has ever tried to address the onus on the Order of needing to show their worth. From our perspective, we know their worth. From Serini's, she doesn't at all. And yet, despite pounding that drum over and over, I still have never seen anyone critical of Serini put any responsibility on the Order. The only conclusion I can draw from this is that Serini needs to know her place, which is subservient to the Order. The colorful bits were me editorializing, and I apologize if it came across as accusing you or anyone else of thinking in such insulting terms. I didn't intend it to be taken that way, I just wanted to emphasize how distasteful I found that conclusion. But I cannot separate "Serini should have listened to the Order for whatever reason" from "they did not need to do anything on their own to earn the right to be heard".

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

I mean, where does her authority come from? Why does anything need to be proven to her? She saved the world that one time? Is that it? Is it her high-level? Is it that she built this tomb for Kraagor and its the closest thing to a gate she decided to defend, even if she took a while before getting around to doing that?

I'm not dismissing those as valid reasons, for the record. And no, she shouldn't be obligated to help them because they're a mid-to-high level party of mostly-good-aligned characters... but she's actively working against them. They've been trying to contact her because it's her turf and they want her help, but their plans thus far have been operating under the assumption that she's not present.

So, to turn that question around on Serini: What has she done that's obligated the Order of the Stick to prove themselves to her? Because it really does feel like it comes down to "She was part of the party that saved the world that one time" and "she constructed a dungeon that's severely inconvenienced Team Evil". Those are noteworthy accomplishments... then again, they only really know the first part of that for certain.

And as far as they're aware, she's trying to kill them all.

But second, lets be fair and address it: The problem I have with the argument that the Order needs to show their worth to her is that she's not giving them the chance to do so. No secret tests of character, no leading them on with messages to try to pump them for info while keeping herself open to the possibility that she's wrong, no divinations, not standing down when they're willing to let bygones be bygones after badly poisoning and petrifying two members of their group and giving them one last chance.

So, no, they've not done anything to prove themselves to her. She's refused to allow them to.

Again, she's being more hardline and unreasonable than the Paladins. Go back all the way to Azure City, when Hinjo discovered that this party who had destroyed one Gate, was harboring a known murderer (and more), and was working with his duplicitous uncle behind the Paladin's backs. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html)

He still kept perspective, kept calm, wanted to do things legally and by the book (because Paladin), but was trying to keep things de-escalated and calm, trying to reason with people, trying to focus on the big picture.

Right now, yeah, I'm sorry, but Seriri's acting closer to Miko than Hinjo right now. Both of them were presented with the same facts, knew of the same dangers, understood the same stakes.

One was willing to give Shojo a chance to prove himself right (via a trial).

The other... did not.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 10:53 PM

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

Nothing could be simpler! It's because they want to talk to her. She does not want to talk to them. This, by default, means they need to prove their worth. If Serini wanted to talk to them and they did not want to talk to her, it'd be the other way around.

And, again, they had ample chances to prove their worth, with all the Sendings they had going. They could have talked about the planet in the Rift, or the godsmoot, or any of the things they already want to talk to her about. Things that may have piqued her interest. So far, it looks like they were just saying "we have information! Totally! It's legit and everything!" Which, if anything, would just make one even more suspicious that they have nothing and are on a fishing expedition.

Ruck

2021-10-05, 10:56 PM

First, lets address the question begged in that statement that the Order needs to prove their worth to Serini: Namely, why?

I mean, where does her authority come from? Why does anything need to be proven to her? She saved the world that one time? Is that it? Is it her high-level? Is it that she built this tomb for Kraagor and its the closest thing to a gate she decided to defend, even if she took a while before getting around to doing that?

She did! She built this gate, she's defending it, and she considers it her top priority. Why does she need more authority than that?

I don't really understand how "authority" comes into it; there's no formal structure or hierarchy here, so the framing of the question really means Serini's autonomy, her own decisions to protect the gate the way she sees best and her ability to do so. Why should she cede her own autonomy to a group of people who keep saying they're protecting the gates but keep destroying them?

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 10:57 PM

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 11:02 PM

Nothing could be simpler! It's because they want to talk to her. She does not want to talk to them. This, by default, means they need to prove their worth. If Serini wanted to talk to them and they did not want to talk to her, it'd be the other way around.

And, again, they had ample chances to prove their worth, with all the Sendings they had going. They could have talked about the planet in the Rift, or the godsmoot, or any of the things they already want to talk to her about. Things that may have piqued her interest. So far, it looks like they were just saying "we have information! Totally! It's legit and everything!" Which, if anything, would just make one even more suspicious that they have nothing and are on a fishing expedition.

They'd like to talk to her, sure.

But that's not their main goal right now. Their main goals right now are:

1: Not blow up the world.

2: Destroying Xykon.

3: Either defeating Redcloak or convincing him to alter his plan.

So, yes, they'd like to talk to Serini, but she's not actually integral to any of the above plans. She'd be a useful asset, but what they really want right now is for her to stop shooting them in the face and preventing them from saving the world already geez.

That's why I don't buy that they have an obligation to prove anything to Serini. As far as I'm concerned, she lost the right to demand that when she attacked and abducted their friends and allies, and then attacked them when they were getting set to ambush a potentially weakened big bad.

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.

EDIT: Oh, and one other note: You're saying that they have the opportunity to prove themselves via the Sendings... but it's a 25 word limit, and a Lv. 4/5 spell, and they have no idea that they have anything to prove. It's unfair to blame them for failing to take advantage of the Sending to prove themselves when they're completely in the blind about her attitude towards them.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 11:07 PM

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.
That's not what she wants. She wants them away from and uninvolved with the gate.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 11:09 PM

They'd like to talk to her, sure.

But that's not their main goal right now. Their main goals right now are:

1: Not blow up the world.

2: Destroying Xykon.

3: Either defeating Redcloak or convincing him to alter his plan.

So, yes, they'd like to talk to Serini, but she's not actually integral to any of the above plans. She'd be a useful asset, but what they really want right now is for her to stop shooting them in the face and preventing them from saving the world already geez.

That's why I don't buy that they have an obligation to prove anything to Serini. As far as I'm concerned, she lost the right to demand that when she attacked and abducted their friends and allies, and then attacked them when they were getting set to ambush a potentially weakened big bad.

If she didn't want to interact with them, that's fine. She just needs to, you know, not interact with them.

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 11:11 PM

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

They tried to talk with her after she ambushed them in lieu of killing her. You know, because of the whole ambushing thing. I... don't really see how that's a bad thing.

edit to add: They didn't know she was even alive before she ambushed them, too. As far as they knew Kraagor's Tomb was inhabited only by the monsters put in it by her back when she built it and there were no active defenders. They didn't know they were trespassing or that Serini didn't want them there.

mehs

2021-10-05, 11:18 PM

I wonder if there's a way to explain actions here within the framework of the rules, or if we should just see that as an artistic interpretation.
An attack would not break the grapple (or a pin). Serini could've just escaped grapple, I guess, but getting out of a pin would require two grapple checks at least, and she's probably both weaker than Haley due to her old age, and also smaller, getting -4 to her check. She could've used escape artist skill to break the pin/grapple, but that would take at least two rounds.
One possible interpretation would be that the piercer bull rushed Haley moving her out of Serini's space, but it doesn't look drawn that way.

Custom epic usage of escape artist to go from pin to free in one standard action rather than one?

Peelee

2021-10-05, 11:18 PM

They tried to talk with her after she ambushed them in lieu of killing her.

Oh, the magnanimity. "We didn't immediately kill you, so that's a favor you owe us for". Truly that could only come from the most heroic of heroes. I may need my fainting couch so I don't hurt myself as I swoon.

Ionathus

2021-10-05, 11:21 PM

"The Order hasn't given her a compelling reason to listen" is not the same sentence as "The Order is at fault for not giving her a compelling reason to listen."

And "not killing someone who's attacking you" is not a perfect demonstration that you can be trusted with a Gate. Sure, it's preferable to the alternative, but the two things don't really affect each other -- for all we know, Serini already expected that The Order wouldn't try to kill her. I don't see how that would impact her opinion of their competency, their threat to the Gate, or whether they're worth talking to.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-05, 11:21 PM

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

Yes, it's her fault, because she's attacked them and is, as far as they're aware, trying to kill them! Do you really expect them to go "Oh, I'm sorry, we should've known by your ambush with an incredibly powerful monster that you aren't actually trying to permanently kill us, just incapacitate us so you can destroy our memories and outright sabotage our efforts at saving the lives of literally everyone to ever exist anywhere, no biggie, we'll just be going now"?

And the question of why does she deserve demanding people prove themselves worthy to her returns. Where does her authority come from? Because yeah, she saved the world and built a tomb that's slowing down Team Evil. But not stopping them. The many doors trick won't fool them forever, and she can't run out the clock on this.

With her plan, sooner or later, Xykon will take control of the gate. Even if they have to recheck every door, they've got time, the Calvary coming to stop them is the party that she's attacked out of nowhere. The trap will be tricky for them to deal with, but does anyone seriously think they won't figure it out eventually, once the brute force technique that they'd been using fails?

She's being arrogant, acting recklessly, attacking people without giving them any chance at all to prove themselves... and any claim that she's doing this to better protect the gate falls apart with that last point. She's done nothing but bought time, and is doing nothing with it.

So... why does anyone have to prove anything to her again?

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 11:22 PM

Oh, the magnanity. "We didn't immediately kill you, so that's a favor you owe us for". Truly that could only come from the most heroic of heroes.

After she, as far as they know, tried to kill them first.

I just edited my post, but they didn't know she was even alive until she ambushed them and didn't know she didn't want them to be there.

pyrefiend

2021-10-05, 11:26 PM

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

She should listen because she's in charge of protecting a gate, and the Order has been directly involved in all the goings-on with the gates. Why turn down the opportunity to get some sort of explanation about what has been going on? In the worst case scenario, she'd learn nothing useful, and she'd reveal only that she is alive. (She could lie about anything else.) In the best case scenario, she'd learn something important about what has been going on with the other Gates. (Something VERY useful, as it turns out!)

The idea that the Order needs to "prove their worth" just seems silly to me. She's in charge of protecting a Gate. They're offering information about the Gates. Unless she thinks that they're some sort of magical prank callers, which seems unlikely, she should realize that she has a lot to gain and little to lose by hearing them out—if only for a few dozen words.

I don't think her behavior is unrealistic. Lots of people perform important jobs incompetently. But I do think she's doing her job incompetently, and I don't think we're supposed to think otherwise.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 11:30 PM

She should listen because she's in charge of protecting a gate, and the Order has been directly involved in all the goings-on with the gates.

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 11:32 PM

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

Don't know about that, but when he calls you to ask to borrow your car, it might be a good idea to pick up the phone and tell him not to instead of giving him no indication you exist.

What you definitely should not do is hide in your garage with a baseball bat to beat him with when he comes to check on you and or borrow said car.

pyrefiend

2021-10-05, 11:39 PM

That certainly is one way to describe "destroyed two Gates".

I have a friend who totalled three cars in one year, when should I sign you up for driving lessons with them?

It's pretty uncharitable to describe their involvement with the gates by merely saying that they destroyed two of them. It's not as though they're intentionally trying to usher in the destruction of reality, and Sirini presumably knows that.

But... even if she does think that they're intentionally destroying the gates in order to destroy the world, she would still have much to gain and little to lose by answering them. She could just lie about everything. In the best case scenario she'd fool them and learn about them; in the worst case scenario they wouldn't learn anything except that she exists.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 11:40 PM

The idea that the Order needs to "prove their worth" just seems silly to me. She's in charge of protecting a Gate. They're offering information about the Gates. Unless she thinks that they're some sort of magical prank callers, which seems unlikely, she should realize that she has a lot to gain and little to lose by hearing them out—if only for a few dozen words.
Already had many instances of two dozen plus one words.

It's also worth noting the Paladins did successfully engage her in conversation. Rather than give her any information, what they found important to convey is to insist that Serini should work with them and lecture her on how wrong she is.

Edit: For the record, I'm not convinced there is any indication to Serini they might have something worth listening to. Nor am I convinced that they would not have a chance to speak before being mind-wiped if Serini was successful at capturing them.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 11:49 PM

I'm sorry, but i don't think the comic, with all the themes that have been present over its run, will go in the direction of "and everything would be fine right now if it weren't for this uppity bitch not knowing her place."

I definitely have not called her anything remotely close to this :smallconfused: I'd like to take the temperature down a notch or two if we could.

If I'm holding her actions to a high standard, it's because she has, by her own admission, appointed herself protector of the entire world. For me, that does not square with being so sure she knows everything she could ever need to know that she won't even answer a phone call, never mind an insistent and repeated one.

It's pretty uncharitable to describe their involvement with the gates by merely saying that they destroyed two of them. It's not as though they're intentionally trying to usher in the destruction of reality, and Sirini presumably knows that.

But... even if she does think that they're intentionally destroying the gates in order to destroy the world, she would still have much to gain and little to lose by answering them. She could just lie about everything. In the best case scenario she'd fool them and learn about them; in the worst case scenario they wouldn't learn anything except that she exists.

An epic rogue, lie or be evasive? What a strange notion.

pyrefiend

2021-10-05, 11:50 PM

Already had many instances of two dozen plus one words.

It's also worth noting the Paladins did successfully engage her in conversation. Rather than give her any information, what they found important to convey is to insist that Serini should work with them and lecture her on how wrong she is.

So... what is the point here? She's so averse to being lectured that she's no longer willing to communicate with anyone who might prove unhelpful? That doesn't seem like a particularly reasonable policy. Even if there's only a small chance that the Order (or whoever) has some useful information, she should take that chance seriously. There's a lot at stake! The possibility of receiving an annoying and unhelpful lecture is not good enough reason to give up an opportunity at intel.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.

Peelee

2021-10-05, 11:51 PM

I definitely have not called her anything remotely close to this :smallconfused: I'd like to take the temperature down a notch or two if we could.

If I'm holding her actions to a high standard, it's because she has, by her own admission, appointed herself protector of the entire world.

I've already addressed the first paragraph.

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

georgie_leech

2021-10-05, 11:52 PM

Hurkyl already responded perfectly, but I have to point out they are still trying to talk to her, and as such, still need to show her why she should listen. And, yet again, that's somehow entirely her fault, apparently.

Personally, I had hopes that they'd get a chance while Haley was physically holding her still. After all, forcing someone to listen may not be the most polite or effective, but it is a workaround when someone doesn't want to talk in the first place. Alas, she proved to wily for that. Here's hoping one them exclaims frustratedly about her stopping them from stopping the world from being destroyed when Xykon gets the Gate or the like.

Psyren

2021-10-05, 11:53 PM

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

At least they don't assume they know everything and will answer a phone call about their task.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.

This.

BriarHobbit

2021-10-05, 11:53 PM

Serini fights on, but a single smallish piercer is not going to change the flow of battle. At this level, it's a minor distraction. The Order needs to win this fight. If they can't beat Serini or persuade her to stand down now, they won't be able to do it tied up as she prepares to douse them with amnesia potion.

Hurkyl

2021-10-05, 11:55 PM

So... what is the point here? She's so averse to being lectured that she's no longer willing to communicate with anyone who might prove unhelpful? That doesn't seem like a particularly reasonable policy. Even if there's only a small chance that the Order (or whoever) has some useful information, she should take that chance seriously. There's a lot at stake! The possibility of receiving an annoying and unhelpful lecture is not good enough reason to give up an opportunity at intel.

I'm not saying that her behavior is inexplicable. I can understand that she's motivated by crankiness and arrogance, and I can understand why she's cranky and arrogant. But I really don't think we're supposed to think that she's doing a great job of protecting the Gate.
Great. She has a chance to debrief/interrogate the Order before mindwiping them.

danielxcutter

2021-10-05, 11:56 PM

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

Also point of order - Lirian's Gate being destroyed isn't the Order's fault at all and Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate.

Seriously, I'd imagine "someone attacked me for the Gate locations, be on guard for a sorcerer lich" would be in the bounds of the oath, assuming anyone besides Soon and the Guard even cared about it at all in the first place(and we're inclined to believe they didn't).

RatElemental

2021-10-05, 11:56 PM

I've already addressed the first paragraph.

For the second, hey, the Order also appointed themselves proctor of the entire world. Let's hold them both to the same standard, shall we? So, if we start off with "number of Gates destroyed".... Oh. Oh my.

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

Also point of order - Lirian's Gate being destroyed isn't the Order's fault at all and Miko was the one who destroyed Soon's Gate.

The two gates the order destroyed people keep referring to are Dorukan's and Girard's.

Yendor

2021-10-06, 12:00 AM

Serini was contacted out of the blue by a group claiming to be protecting the Gates. The only people who are supposed to know about them aren't supposed to contact her about them, and the last person she encountered who knew about them horribly disfigured her and stole her information on them. Why, then, should she automatically assume they have good intentions? Surely the prudent thing would be to find out who the hell these people are first. And if the first thing she finds out is that they destroyed one of the Gates, directly contradicting their claims, why would she want anything to do with them?

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Lirian hadn't let slip that there were other Gates left standing.

danielxcutter

2021-10-06, 12:01 AM

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

And if we're chalking "not knowing something they had no way of knowing" as a major point against the Order, that should go the same for Serini for not knowing about the Godsmoot(if nothing else she should know that the gods might pull the rug out from everyone if things get real bad).

Also, if they hadn't blown the Gate, Redcloak would bring Xykon back to the dungeon and they'd have lured someone else in to deactivate the rune all over again. So yeah.

Alexandrite

2021-10-06, 12:01 AM

Well, there goes Serini again. Unless the Piercer can fly around freely, she must be a future psychic to have positioned a monster right above where she would get pinned in the middle of an ambush-turned-battle.

I've got mixed feelings about this fight continuing. On one hand it's pretty cool seeing what random monsters will show up here, on the other Serini herself started getting annoying after about two pages and this could easily go on for a while.

pyrefiend

2021-10-06, 12:03 AM

Great. She has a chance to debrief/interrogate the Order before mindwiping them.

That's a good point. If her plan all along has been to interrogate them from a position of strength, then that's not so terribly unreasonable. I still think it's fairly unreasonable, but it's not as bad as if she were completely writing them off as unimportant.

Peelee

2021-10-06, 12:10 AM

Well, one was just sheer ignorance. The other time prevented the world from being destroyed by the gods. So... They're doing a pretty good job I think.

First one is incompetence, second one the result is something they had no idea about at the time. Sorry, I'm not big on justification after the fact. But hey, if we're doing that, then we know everything turns out alright in the end so Serini is free and clear here, right?

At least they don't assume they know everything and will answer a phone call about their task.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance. Kind of rides on that whole "depends on the person's thoughts about the caller" thing I've been hammering on about, ya know? I bet Tarquin is just kicking himself for not finding out who Serini is so he could have Sent to her, since she would be obligated to discuss things with him, as he would be any old person wanting to talk Gate.

Wraithfighter

2021-10-06, 12:12 AM

That's a good point. If her plan all along has been to interrogate them from a position of strength, then that's not so terribly unreasonable. I still think it's fairly unreasonable, but it's not as bad as if she were completely writing them off as unimportant.

Agreed. I'd still ding her a bunch of points for her actions thus far, but if she's willing to hear them out from a position of strength and accept that she might be wrong, it'd assuage a lot of my concerns about her actions, that while she might be arrogant, it's not to the point where she's willing to risk the fate of the world on the assumption that she's right.

Because, yeah, it's literally the end of the world if she's wrong. She really, really shouldn't be taking that chance.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance. Kind of rides on that whole "depends on the person's thoughts about the caller" thing I've been hammering on about, ya know? I bet Tarquin is just kicking himself for not finding out who Serini is so he could have Sent to her, since she would be obligated to discuss things with him, as he would be any old person wanting to talk Gate.

You mean, like when Elan, Haley and Durkon had to play nice with Tarquin the Tyrant for a few days because he had critical information about the gate they were searching for, with Roy being willing to stay unjustly (if legally) imprisoned for a while in order to let that happen?

Psyren

2021-10-06, 12:16 AM

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

...Come to think of it, why did she do that? Clearly the other Scribblers (and their descendants) didn't need her diary to find them, because Shojo knew where Lirian's was without it.

Somehow, I doubt they would be particularly receptive if Nale Sent to them offering assistance.

Yeah, they'd never answer a Sending from Nale, or indeed any other enemy, what was I thinking.

RatElemental

2021-10-06, 12:19 AM

Yeah, they'd never answer a Sending from Nale, or indeed any other enemy, what was I thinking.

Well there was that one time Nale sent to Roy. Roy spoke, but Nale didn't respond to anything he said and he was just reading off a ransom demand anyway.

Psyren

2021-10-06, 12:20 AM

Well there was that one time Nale sent to Roy. Roy spoke, but Nale didn't respond to anything he said and he was just reading off a ransom demand anyway.

I didn't think I'd need the blue text there.

Hurkyl

2021-10-06, 12:25 AM

...Come to think of it, why did she do that? Clearly the other Scribblers (and their descendants) didn't need her diary to find them, because Shojo knew where Lirian's was without it.
I thought they all exchanged gate locations with the others? If nothing else we know that Girard communicated coordinates to both Soon and Serini. I would assume all of the Scribblers recorded them in some fashion. Didn't Xykon say something about Serini simply being the most accessible of the group?

danielxcutter

2021-10-06, 12:31 AM

a_flemish_guy

2021-10-06, 12:39 AM

Wraithfighter

2021-10-06, 12:40 AM

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

Not to mention that she could probably encode the coordinates carefully, a cypher made by an epic level rogue is probably something that's going to be hard to crack.

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story. I have a feeling that it's going to play into things more and inform how she got so... this when we actually start getting conversations, but story functionality is something we have to keep in mind too. Sometimes characters make mistakes during a story because, without it, we wouldn't have a story.

Still... maybe this is a reason she's so hell-bent against getting help from the Order of the Stick. She sees a lot of her younger, more carefree self in the party, and just how much damage that sort of attitude did to the world, and to her friends.

Psyren

2021-10-06, 12:45 AM

The question is still, "why the heck did she keep them around with her". She's an epic rogue, she could always leave the coordinates back in her room in the dungeon and 'port back into the area if she needed to access them. She's probably got the resources and UMD modifier for that.

On top of which, Girard's was really the only hidden one. All the rest were at pretty prominent landmarks that she could have remembered. So there was literally one set of coordinates for her to remember rather than 5, did she need her diary for that?

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story.

From a narrative aspect I have no problem with it, it does make for a great story. But since apparently any attempt at questioning her competence is reproachful...

danielxcutter

2021-10-06, 12:47 AM

Not to mention that she could probably encode the coordinates carefully, a cypher made by an epic level rogue is probably something that's going to be hard to crack.

But really, all of this is just kinda moot. She didn't do all those things because if she did those things, we wouldn't have a story. I have a feeling that it's going to play into things more and inform how she got so... this when we actually start getting conversations, but story functionality is something we have to keep in mind too. Sometimes characters make mistakes during a story because, without it, we wouldn't have a story.

Still... maybe this is a reason she's so hell-bent against getting help from the Order of the Stick. She sees a lot of her younger, more carefree self in the party, and just how much damage that sort of attitude did to the world, and to her friends.

I do suppose the coordinates wouldn't have done much on their own if you didn't already know where at least one of the Gates were in the first place. (Also they were coded.)

Alexandrite

2021-10-06, 12:48 AM

Serini has nothing to lose from at least listening to what the Order has to say, as she's already revealed herself and they're still interested in talking even after her opening attack. The worst case from an outside perspective is that they know nothing or lie, and then things continue as normal. Her only reasoning for not taking this chance for information is spite and perhaps some arrogance that she knows everything about the situation.

We as the reader know her intel is a few eggs short of a cake here, so it could be hard to impartially judge her decisions regarding the Order. But the Giant knows that we have the relevant information and is also a very good writer so I don't think we're intended to see her actions so far as reasonable. That's not to say she's a villain or an 'uppity bitch' as some have apparently called her, but by refusing communication at every chance she's made herself into an antagonist, certainly. And if the Order eventually decided it was a waste of time/too risky trying to reason with her and treated her like one, she'd be the only one at fault for that.

Hurkyl

2021-10-06, 12:52 AM

Vikenlugaid

2021-10-06, 01:44 AM

Didn't you argue that the Order were partly responsible for Soon's gate's destruction because they'd contributed to Miko's downfall? And now you think Serini writing down all the secrets in a diary is a stretch???
.
Partly, but i didn't say they were "twice guilty" than Miko for that gate.

Btw, I am totally sure uf Miko was alife and she was the one coming to this gate, everybody would agree with Serini capturing her... But the justification for Serini, not knowing her personality, is the same than with the order or the paladins here.
The only diference to us the readers is if we like or not lile that character, and that is irrelevant from the point of view of a character who doesn't know them.

Liquor Box

2021-10-06, 01:52 AM

A.) If I say "you can't buy a Ferrari, you don't even have five dollars!" and you pull a twenty out of your wallet, I'm still probably not going to re-evaluate whether or not you can buy a Ferrari. Especially if you have been denied several times already, and burned down the last dealership specifically because you were about to get another rejection.

Well that scenario implies you had some reason to think I don't have $5, and you extrapolate that I therefore don't have enough for a Ferrari. Me pulling $20 out shows that your "some reason" was wrong. Although it doesn't prove that I do have enough, your reason to think I don't has been dispelled. Therefore you'd be irrational not to re-evaluate.

Of course if you did choose to re-evaluate, me trying to buy a Ferrari several times before does suggest my assertion that I have enough this time might not be reliable. I don't know how that relates to the comic though, because the only time the Order has taken on Team Evil, they won.

2.) OK, let's say the Order only wants to talk to her. Your attempted role reversal still fails immediately because that is an incredibly poor method to extract information you want to learn.

What's a better tactic? They've already tried talking to her cordially several times and been rejected. That being the case, subduing her and holding her captive seems reasonable. They would have something she wants to bargain with (her freedom), or if their morals are more Serini like they could hit her with a stick if she doesn't answer how they like.

serini also isn't just joe rando, she's an epic level rogue, her diary was safer on her then it was in any vault
shouldn't she have written down the coordinates? maybe, but I think it was done at the time when they where adventuring, there's no entry in there going: if anyone reading this wants to find the gates these are the coordinates of each of them
but rather, entry: date, coordinates, dear diary, today we sealed the rift at windy canyon in the western dessert, it was great adventure,blablabla...
I don't know who Joe Rando is, but you have identified the obvious way of not giving away secrets. Don't write them in your diary.

Thank you! I was thinking exactly that when in previous threads

You are most welcome

Now? That's an interesting position to take. Nothing much has changed since the last strip. Her excuse has been, and continues to be, "I do not think these people who blew up several Gates have anything to say that I'm interested in hearing". Nothing in the current strip changes that. She very much still has that excuse.

If she just doesn't think they have anything interesting to say, then it would be unwise of her not to talk to them just in case, unless she has a reason not to. In the Moron thread some people were suggesting that she did have a reason not to, because she didn't even want the Order to know she was alive. I think the point being made here, is that that reason not to no longer exists because they now know she's alive.

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-06, 02:13 AM

I actually do think the argument of "Serini was dumb for writing down the locations of the gates in her diary" has some merit, to a degree. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if she carried around some guilt for that, nor would it surprise me if it in some way informed how she's behaving now. Maybe when she sees the Order, they remind her of herself as a plucky halfling girl who accidentally gave a megalomaniac the chance to blow up the world. I'm not saying this is true, but it's certainly a possible route her character could go down.

(Though I also can't really think of where else she would have kept it that would be safer than on her person--I don't believe she was living at the dungeon at the time, and I imagine a rogue that can hide/evade/slip away at a moment's notice can keep better watch over it than leaving it around. But I understand the idea that she should have burned those pages or blacked the coordinates out with marker or something.)

But that was also decades ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure where the statute of limitations on that runs out, but as far as "actions that have jeopardized the Gates" goes, the Order's are at least more recent.

Alexandrite

2021-10-06, 02:14 AM

At the conclusion of this strip she has has something very concrete to lose: the chance to take actions while the Order is partially incapacitated.

Only if she's deadset on seeing the Order as enemies that need to be defeated. Which, given that they've tried multiple times to settle things without combat and also managed to come back from most of what she's thrown at them so far, doesn't feel like the most reasonable mindset to have.

Liquor Box

2021-10-06, 02:28 AM

I wonder what the reaction would be if Serini heard them out and responded "Okay, thank you for your information. Now get out and never come back". A lot of the anti-Serini sentiment wasn't just that she's not listening to them, but also asserting that, at the very least, she is obligated to actively include them in her defenses.

I'm not entirely sure the Order would accept being shut out; the only way I could see the Order agreeing is if the plot did something shortly thereafter to invalidate the agreement before they have time to really accept it.

I don't think anyone has asserted that she is obligated to include them in her defences. It's just she would be unwise not to do so, because including them is probably her best chance of preventing the gate's destruction. This should be apparent to her based on what she already seems to know, but would probably be even more apparent if the Order gave her further details.

So if she said "now get out and don't come back", she'd still be acting irrationally. But, even if she's not working with them, at least she's not attacking them (I presume she's not?), which would be an improvement.

But that was also decades ago, wasn't it? I'm not sure where the statute of limitations on that runs out, but as far as "actions that have jeopardized the Gates" goes, the Order's are at least more recent.

They are more recent, but i don't think time elapsed dictates who is most responsible. She is partially responsible for the destruction of the gates. In most cases others are probably more responsible, because their actions contributed more directly, but she is still partially responsible. I'm not trying to paint her as the one cause of the world's downfall, only that she has made catastrophic mistakes just like the Order. If one was to call the Order incompetent, then I think Serini would be incompetent too if judged by the same standard.

Partly, but i didn't say they were "twice guilty" than Miko for that gate.

The 'twice' was simply a reference to the number of gates destruction they played a part in.

Btw, I am totally sure uf Miko was alife and she was the one coming to this gate, everybody would agree with Serini capturing her... But the justification for Serini, not knowing her personality, is the same than with the order or the paladins here.
The only diference to us the readers is if we like or not lile that character, and that is irrelevant from the point of view of a character who doesn't know them.

Depending on the circumstances, I don't think i'd agree with Serini attacking Miko. I don't even think I'd agree with the paladins attacking her (despite them having more reason to do so) if she was gunning for Xykon and was willing to work with them.

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-06, 02:58 AM

They are more recent, but i don't think time elapsed dictates who is most responsible. She is partially responsible for the destruction of the gates. In most cases others are probably more responsible, because their actions contributed more directly, but she is still partially responsible. I'm not trying to paint her as the one cause of the world's downfall, only that she has made catastrophic mistakes just like the Order. If one was to call the Order incompetent, then I think Serini would be incompetent too if judged by the same standard.

Dictate who's most responsible? Certainly not. But I think it does give her more time to reflect on those mistakes and learn from them.

I don't think the Order has had that, from her perspective (which is always what I've been trying to consider, to be clear. I don't actually believe the Gates were destroyed through incomp--okay, I don't believe Girard's Gate was destroyed through incompetence). Certainly from her perspective I'd be side-eyeing the fact that the intentional destruction was done after the semi-accidental one, for reasons she has already expressed disdain.

Liquor Box

2021-10-06, 03:44 AM

Dictate who's most responsible? Certainly not. But I think it does give her more time to reflect on those mistakes and learn from them.

I don't think the Order has had that, from her perspective (which is always what I've been trying to consider, to be clear. I don't actually believe the Gates were destroyed through incomp--okay, I don't believe Girard's Gate was destroyed through incompetence). Certainly from her perspective I'd be side-eyeing the fact that the intentional destruction was done after the semi-accidental one, for reasons she has already expressed disdain.

If your point is that Serini has had more time to reflect on and learn from her mistake than the Order, then I agree. Whether she has actually done that probably depends whether you think she is making another blunder now.

No doubt, Girard's gate was destroyed deliberately by Roy. I think that was a good decision from him, given what he knew. I think V was speaking with the voice of the author when saying "Sir Greenhilt's logic is sound based on what he knows, but he does not know all". You (or Serini) may not see it that way. But, if Roy was wrong to destroy Girard's gate, then that was still just a lapse in judgment by him, much like Serini's lapse of judgment with the diary.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html

kingcheesepants

2021-10-06, 03:47 AM

because she gains nothing from talking to them?

she's not there to help them take out xykon or to hear anything about xykon, granny serini is there to give them all a big helping of amnesia soup and that's it

She absolutely doesn't know that she has nothing to gain from them. She's presuming that they just want to stop Xykon from taking over the world and since she doesn't care about Xykon she therefore thinks that she has nothing to gain from talking. But they very well could have valuable information that she could utilize or that recontextualizes the situation in an important way (as is indeed the case) and for all she knows she might be able to get them to back away or leave without a fight and possibly stop others from coming. The only way to find out is by talking which she is actively avoiding. Heck even if talking leads to nothing worthwhile she could drug them more easily if they were talking it out over some drinks rather than fighting. Avoiding talking is actively detrimental to all of her goals.

But talkint how? While they have her grappled? Who would want to talk like that when she can avoid that situation?

The order was attempting to establish communication before anyone was being grappled and presumably they would be perfectly willing to stop grappling her if she stopped fighting them and just talked. In fact accepting their overtures to communication would be the easiest way to get out of the situation of being grappled (and shot at etc).

Bookwyrm13

2021-10-06, 04:51 AM

If your point is that Serini has had more time to reflect on and learn from her mistake than the Order, then I agree. Whether she has actually done that probably depends whether you think she is making another blunder now.

No doubt, Girard's gate was destroyed deliberately by Roy. I think that was a good decision from him, given what he knew. I think V was speaking with the voice of the author when saying "Sir Greenhilt's logic is sound based on what he knows, but he does not know all". You (or Serini) may not see it that way. But, if Roy was wrong to destroy Girard's gate, then that was still just a lapse in judgment by him, much like Serini's lapse of judgment with the diary.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html

I admit, I have conflicting thoughts about whether or not we're meant to believe Roy was making a sound decision. Certainly we are at the time, but then Serini shows up and, in what I personally find to be a very clever piece of writing, challenges that assumption by beginning with a different premise--the idea that a world ruled by Xykon is preferable to one destroyed. I don't know if Rich wants us to agree with that premise. I don't know if I agree with the premise myself, honestly. But I think it's a question worth asking, and I believe that it was intended to be a question worth asking, and it provide an interesting contrast to the assumptions we'd been meant to make up until that point.

But I also don't think it matters that much. Maybe Roy was right, wrong, right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. And hey, if they want to blame Scribblers after the fact for their lapses in judgment, I'm happy to. Whether it's Serini keeping the locations in a diary, Dorukan putting a self-destruct button on his Gate, Girard relying purely on his family line and no one else, Lirian lashing her Gate between two sapient beings that fear fire, Lirian and the druids caring for the forest in such a way that it's so susceptible to forest fire, Lirian giving Xykon the information that there are multiple gates (Guys, I'm starting to think the real bad decision maker of the Scribblers was Lirian all along). They've all made mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20.

The problem is that right now, the world can't afford any more lapses in judgment. Serini can't change what she did in the past (and of course, nor can the Order). But what she can influence, is whether or not she lets the most prolific and recent group of Gate-destroyers anywhere near the last one.

Tyrell

2021-10-06, 05:08 AM

I'm curious, actually. I can't find any 3.5e sources that detail stats for a piercer, and the one source I could find that details stats for a piercer, for 5e, gives them an INT of 1. Yet it answers to a name, and makes a noise indicating anger/hunger/some other emotion, despite the fact that that's borderline non-sentient. Is her Animal Handling just that high or is something weird going on here?

Riftwolf

2021-10-06, 05:27 AM

Just to check, has anyone else mentioned the Piercer's called Franklin or are we letting that one slide?

RatElemental

2021-10-06, 05:31 AM

Just to check, has anyone else mentioned the Piercer's called Franklin or are we letting that one slide?

A few have, but going any further beyond that observation tends to run afoul of forum rules.

Liquor Box

2021-10-06, 05:50 AM

I admit, I have conflicting thoughts about whether or not we're meant to believe Roy was making a sound decision. Certainly we are at the time, but then Serini shows up and, in what I personally find to be a very clever piece of writing, challenges that assumption by beginning with a different premise--the idea that a world ruled by Xykon is preferable to one destroyed. I don't know if Rich wants us to agree with that premise. I don't know if I agree with the premise myself, honestly. But I think it's a question worth asking, and I believe that it was intended to be a question worth asking, and it provide an interesting contrast to the assumptions we'd been meant to make up until that point.

I tend to agree with Serini that Xykon ruling is better than the end of the world. But a couple of other points:

If Xykon gets control of the gate there's a high risk of it being the end of the world anyway, and I think this should be apparent to Serini.
Girard's gate was not the last gate, so destroying the gate does not mean the end of the world. Roy explicitly mentions that when discussing his decision, and Serini alludes to when agreeing that destroying the gate is not an option this time.

So I think it is possible to agree with Serini's premise that Xykons rule would be preferable, but still agree with Roy's decision, and to have doubts about Serini's decision making.

But I also don't think it matters that much. Maybe Roy was right, wrong, right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons. And hey, if they want to blame Scribblers after the fact for their lapses in judgment, I'm happy to. Whether it's Serini keeping the locations in a diary, Dorukan putting a self-destruct button on his Gate, Girard relying purely on his family line and no one else, Lirian lashing her Gate between two sapient beings that fear fire, Lirian and the druids caring for the forest in such a way that it's so susceptible to forest fire, Lirian giving Xykon the information that there are multiple gates (Guys, I'm starting to think the real bad decision maker of the Scribblers was Lirian all along). They've all made mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20.

I agree, it doesn't matter much to any of the wider discussion. But I do think that when people suggest that the order are incompetent, it's reasonable to point out the Serini's own history includes incompetence of a similar degree.

As a brief aside, I'm not so sure that it was a mistake for Dorukan to have a self destruct button. As per our discussion about Roy at Girard's gate, it may have been good thinking by him to have a self destruct so it could be destroyed if a Xykonesque character gets control of it.

The problem is that right now, the world can't afford any more lapses in judgment. Serini can't change what she did in the past (and of course, nor can the Order). But what she can influence, is whether or not she lets the most prolific and recent group of Gate-destroyers anywhere near the last one.

I agree. And the question from her perspective is which course of action is more likely to avoid the destruction of the gate or release of the Snarl. Seeking to take out the Order so she can oppose the overwhelmingly powerful Xykon on her own, or combining her resources with powerful potential ally. For various reasons I think she has got that equation wrong, but I appreciate you may not see it that way.

chrestomancy

2021-10-06, 05:50 AM

I suspect there would be considerably more Gates left standing if Serini hadn't put the coordinates in her diary that Xykon stole.

I think the reason the locations of the gates was in her diary is because the diary was recorded at the time they found and secured the gates. It's basically like my Kingmaker notes - they record all sorts of details of the adventuring party's lives, and the assumption is that nobody else will ever read it. After separating out and each defending a gate, sure, anybody writing down a list of where all the gates are would be extremely stupid. She probably didn't do that. But she never thought to burn all her old notes, probably because the diary had too much personal meaning to her, records of her friends, including the one who she has built a tomb and monument to.

Serini's actions in fighting the Order are pretty unreasonable, but she is behaving in exactly the same way as all the other members of the Order of the Scribble. They split up, each defending a gate, and refused to communicate, cooperate or anything. This decision is fundamental to every one of them. Of course Serini doesn't trust the Order of the Stick. She barely knows them. The people she's closest to, she decided it would be safer to not trust them either. She's an idiot, just like Dorukan, Lirian, Girard and Soon. The difference between the Scribble and the Stick is the difference between the heroes tale and the tragic backstory. There's a thread in OotS about a "plucky band of misfits, working together". They work together despite their differences. They trust each other, and share information even when it is personally damaging, or risks ruining late-plot dramatic tension. They are the heroes the Scribble could never have been.

Aetius

2021-10-06, 06:54 AM

The problem I have with the argument that the Order needs to show their worth to her is that she's not giving them the chance to do so.

She did. She obviously did her homework and bothered to research what the Order and their Allies were doing. And she DID evaluate thei worth on their own actions.

And those actions were:

Destroying a gate due to ignorance.
Failing to protect a gate (and have their allies deliberately destroy it)
Deliberately destroying a gate

And the reason for the destruction of two of the gates was the sentiment that it's better to destroy a gate than to let it fall into Xykons hands. Which Serini stronly disagrees with.
Sure - we know the Order would probably not do it with the last gate.

What she didn't do is give them another chance to show their worth.
But how would she even do that?
Talk is cheap if it contradicts your actions up to that point.
Just trying it once (again) is not really an option if there is only one gate left.
And everything else would amount to elaborate trickery to try to determine their real sentiment, which seems unpractical. Ecspecially if she doesn't think they can actually help her to defend the gate.

So what would she reasonably gain by talking to them?

We have gotten to know the Order quite well and Serini is not wrong in assuming, that she wouldn't have much of a chance to talk them into leaving her and her dungeon alone.
They would still do whatever it takes to get involved and if Serini denied them access they would eventually force the issue.
Or at least it's reasonable to believe that a bunch of adventurers who are willing to destroy a gate that holds together the fabric of the universe in their quest to vanquish Xykon wouldn't be stopped by the complaints of an old lady.

On the other hand keeping them in the dark about her existance and sentiment gave her the element of surprise.
And even now she has a (albeit dwindling) tactical advantage she's probably unwilling to give up by giving them time to regroup.

The only way to do things?
Not really.

Totally unreasonable reaction?
Neither.

danielxcutter

2021-10-06, 07:03 AM

If they’d left Dorukan’s or Girard’s Gate alone there’s a good chance the gods would have ended the world already.

And Shojo mentions that the Scribblers feared that the gods might do that, so…

Shining Wrath

2021-10-06, 08:07 AM

If Serini decamps and leaves Sunny behind, Sunny uses eye #8 and disintegrates a path out of the chamber, probably straight up. I doubt the Order would kill a fleeing enemy that seems to be child-like.

KorvinStarmast

2021-10-06, 08:47 AM

Both - the main comic brings up the deciphering of the code:
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html
and SoD has Xykon's speech to Redcloak that explains how he deciphered the code - . Thanks.

but the pro-Serini camp There were more participants in that thread than Pro and Con Serini. It is rather annoying to see the assumption of a Manichaean approach as the basis for discussion.
Bravo! I hope everyone is taking notes because this is how you conduct a D&D ambush. Absolutely textbook on Serini's part!

She:
-- Gathered intelligence on the intruders.
-- Made a plan.
-- Selected the spot for the ambush.
-- Had a retreat planned just in case the encounter went wrong.

Right now we're seeing the "break contact, live to fight again some other day" contingency plan.
Great post and I appreciate the tactically/doctrinally savvy terms (to include meeting engagement, etc). I suggest that at some point you learned what means "Hooah!" :smallsmile:

... Come to think of it, for all their time together as an adventuring party the Scribblers don't really seem to like each other very much. They put the fun into dysfunctional.

If that pattern follows, how will Serini's gate be destroyed? It won't be. The Order will finally break that cycle. :smallwink:

Intelligent monsters ARE people in this world, but there may be plenty of dumb animal type monsters who might wind up rampaging and destroying the gate.
Don't think so, since that will mean the world's destroyed, by the gods.

I meant the 70s. {snip} yeah, always have a back up. :smallsmile:
The Lurker is nasty but the Trapper is just sadism. I have solemnly limited myself to no more than one per campaign and only near the very bottom of very large dungeons. How did parties discover them and prevent being consumed? Did any successfully do that?

But even then I expect the Giant to have more to say on the philosophical conflict rather than just brushing it aside with a tropey resolution. One hopes.

If it was me, I'd take one of the many missed shots she fired at Haley and stab her with the poisoned arrow. Let her sleep it off.:smallamused: Great idea, but might her troll blood resist that sleep poison? I am not smart enough on 3.5e trolls to know if their have resistance to stuff like that.

If Sunny is the one appearance unexpected ally, Serini hightailing it now and leaving them behind is a handy way to accomplish that without also having Serini being an ally. Serini and Sunny have a relationship. I don't see their bond being broken easily.

The question noone is asking, is HOW does she have all these monster allies. {snip}. But why are so many working WITH her? She builds relationships. :smallwink: (Think of how the Riddle of Steel is explained by Thulsa Doom in the Conan movie with Arnold Schwarznegger).

She is operating entirely on flawed assumptions and making no effort to confirm that those assumptions are correct. She may not be aware of what she doesn't know. :smallwink:
The Order are (from her perspective) kids, and her stance toward them as an experienced, reasonably successful, epic level adventurer is "Stay Offa My Lawn!"

It's just sheer arrogance, and when the league of Paladins are being more pragmatic, open-minded and cautious about their approach to defending the Gates, it is not a good look for Serini. Her data points do not align with your reader side 'omniscience' since she isn't a fan of The Order. Most of the people posting on this forum are fans of the order. :smallwink: Where you sit colors what you see.

I've got mixed feelings about this fight continuing. Right now, Serini is in "flight" not "fight" mode.

drazen

2021-10-06, 08:50 AM

If Serini didn't want all those Sendings, maybe she should have replied "I'm on the No Sending list. Please remove me from your contact list, or you can deal with those two idiot lawyers again. Thank you!"

Unless it's like picking up the phone on a robocall and proving the number exists. But ignoring them didn't seem to stop them anyway.

Better yet: "Gate's actually at the SOUTH Pole, duncewaffles. I lied in my journal for extra deception, being a rogue and all. Xykon's distracted raiding fake dungeons."

Hurkyl

2021-10-06, 08:56 AM