Could the Order already have broken the gate's defences?

[Mad Humanist]

I mean the Durkon and Minrah managed to totally disappear from Team Evil's perspective as far as we know. I think maybe we can guess that Team Evil will have to retreat from their current cave exploration. Then they will have to think. That might be enough of a clue for clever boys like Redcloak and Xykon to investigate further and discover and bypass the traps.

There could also be upsides. Maybe Xykon will demand that Redcloak tell the story of the meeting with Durkon again to see if he can spot clues. That might cause strife between them.

I can't see them just going back to doing things the way they were.

[Precure]

Not Xykon, but Redcloak is already on their trail.

[hungrycrow]

Team Evil lost the Order's trail and Xykon just picked a random door. They don't have a particular reason to think that the Order hid in the dungeon behind a teleport trap rather than some other way.

Of course Redcloak could figure that out just because this forces him to stop and restrategize. But he was already close to doing that anyways, since he was getting close to noticing the Mitd's sabotage.

[dmc91356]

And the worg has told them about the meld into stone trick as well. Enough plausible scenarios so that there is not necessarily a reason to really look for the actual traps that separate the real dungeon from the fake ones.

[Hurkyl]

Monsters appeared in a dungeon they have very good reason to expect to be empty and no apparent explanation.

We know the answer to that particular puzzle is the MitD was painting extra X's, but Redcloak? He has absolutely no clue what the explanation is. This is going to prompt him to do investigate a lot of different things and stop accepting things at face value.

[brian 333]

Greyview: Smelling a rat I am. A very dead rat, here by the scorch mark on the floor. In a dungeon where the rats are not found. Wondering, I am, where the rat came from, and where it has gone?

[Psyren]

I mean the Durkon and Minrah managed to totally disappear from Team Evil's perspective as far as we know. I think maybe we can guess that Team Evil will have to retreat from their current cave exploration. Then they will have to think. That might be enough of a clue for clever boys like Redcloak and Xykon to investigate further and discover and bypass the traps.

There could also be upsides. Maybe Xykon will demand that Redcloak tell the story of the meeting with Durkon again to see if he can spot clues. That might cause strife between them.

I can't see them just going back to doing things the way they were.

They were going to start rethinking their approach eventually (when they ran out of unmarked doors and realized what MitD was doing.) Maybe the Order's appearance sped that up slightly, but that's actually a good thing, given that they've been carting XP and treasure away from each sojourn quite literally by the armload.

As for the unknown defenses on the Gate - they've already foreshadowed that the teleport trap is bidirectional so it can keep something in (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1224.html), presumably something quite nasty. No doubt that entity, whatever it is, is this Gate's Final Boss Trump Card - similar to Soon's Ghost Martyr effect, Lirian's Guardian Virus, and Girard's Microcosm Runes.

[RatElemental]

High level adventurers disappearing is also something that they can just do. Be it wind walk, teleport, rope trick, etc, high level parties have a plethora of disappearing acts they can pull off.

[danielxcutter]

And now I think of it, they don’t know that the Order can’t teleport. The only time they saw V was during the splices and they teleported away(albeit the MitD did that, but Xykon doesn’t know that). Plus even if they knew V can’t teleport, Durkon can still Plane Shift them out. Heck, if Minrah cast Thor’s Might on her own she might be able to help with that.

[Hurkyl]

Doesn't the location itself put limitations on things like that?

[Emanick]

Doesn't the location itself put limitations on things like that?

We don't know. Many people have plausibly suggested that multidimensional stone prevents spells like Teleport and Plane Shift from working, but then again, Serini seems to have used Dimension Door or a similar spell to exit her lair and go after the Order, so unless she has a way to circumvent the multidimensional stone's properties, it doesn't seem to block all such travel.

[Mad Humanist]

We don't know. Many people have plausibly suggested that multidimensional stone prevents spells like Teleport and Plane Shift from working, but then again, Serini seems to have used Dimension Door or a similar spell to exit her lair and go after the Order, so unless she has a way to circumvent the multidimensional stone's properties, it doesn't seem to block all such travel.

I suspect there are a few gaps intentionally placed and that Serini closely guards the details of these gaps. She probably has never written them down. I don't know whether this was an intentional lesson learnt because of her dealings with Xykon, or that she just never had any need.

[hungrycrow]

It seems like the teleport trap itself disproves the idea of multidimensional stone blocking teleport.

[Mad Humanist]

It seems like the teleport trap itself disproves the idea of multidimensional stone blocking teleport.

Why? Maybe multi-dimensional stone looks just like ordinary stone unless you use magic somehow.

[Hurkyl]

I've been calling it teleport, but I'm not sure it's the right word. Can we pin down the effect more?

Visually, it seems more like rewiring space so that rather than the passageway going from point A to point B, it goes to point C instead. It's more like... a permanent gate that can be toggled on and off with the trap mechanism?

[RatElemental]

Multidimensional stone was explained as existing on both the material and the ethereal planes to explain why Xykon couldn't ghostform through it to find the gate. Teleport doesn't leave the material plane and neither does dimension door.

[Peelee]

Teleport doesn't leave the material plane and neither does dimension door.You sure about that?
Teleportation

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane. Anything that blocks astral travel also blocks teleportation.

[RatElemental]

You sure about that?

Might've got my editions mixed up. I had a notion it went through the astral but when I looked to confirm I got results saying it was all material. Still, going through the astral plane is an entirely different beast from going through the ethereal.

[Peelee]

Might've got my editions mixed up. I had a notion it went through the astral but when I looked to confirm I got results saying it was all material. Still, going through the astral plane is an entirely different beast from going through the ethereal.

Oh definitely. There's a reason I only contested the planar bit, and not the specific plane. :smallwink:

Teleporting is cool. All my sorcs have been teleport specialists.

[RatElemental]

Oh definitely. There's a reason I only contested the planar bit, and not the specific plane. :smallwink:

Teleporting is cool. All my sorcs have been teleport specialists.

One interesting thing about this whole situation though: If this were another edition then blocking ethereal travel would mean that the souls of the dead couldn't make their journey to the outer planes and would be trapped inside. That tomb would be haunted as all get out as a result. Until Pharasma showed up personally to smash it to bits for doing so, that is.

[danielxcutter]

Re: trapped souls - I dunno, maybe they could just leave the way Team Evil did? Actually not sure how the dungeon prevents the monsters inside from just doing that already.

Re: multidimensional stone - preventing teleportation on the way in seems like a useful defense, though the easiest way is to simply make sure someone can't use divinations to pinpoint the location of the Gate and then 'port in to there. Still, blocking the Ethereal isn't sufficient for blocking teleportation; it's why Lauren could Psionic Dimension Door out of V's Resilient Sphere and Forcecage. Still, we don't know precisely how Serini got from her hideout to the dungeon; perhaps there are other ways into it? Maybe we'll see later.

[LuisDantas]

I don't expect the seal to actually be in Kragoor's Gate. Or perhaps what we are seeing is not necessarily Kragoor's Gate anyway.

Serini is putting a lot of effort into making a good show that the Gate is a crucial location that she will defend at all costs.

But a careful reading of strips 276 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) and 277 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) reminds us that the rifts themselves were found in locations not of their choosing and which they all presumably agreed to hide to the best of their abilities.

277 also tells us that Serini built "a tomb for Kraagor (...) with the nastiest beasts in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might" while the other four surviving members of the Order of the Scribble presumably built the gates named after themselves to protect individual sealed rifts of their choice. Technically only Dorukan's and Girard's gates are directly referenced; Lirian's and Soon's are implied.

From more recent strips such as 1227 and 1228 we also know that she changed her plans when Xykon attacked her and that she has been well informed of what happened to the other gates. Oh, and also that she remains fond of misdirection tactics - she is, after all, an epic-level Rogue. Also, she is fully aware of Xykon and even knows that he has her diary.

While Xykon and Redcloak seem to have met some formidable opposition in this dungeon, what we actually saw is much more misdirection-oriented. A Beholder is impressive on its own way, but I would hardly describe Mimics and Piercers as some of the most powerful monsters around.

Even Roy has been saying recently that there must be more to the defenses of this final rift than what we saw this far. There is also the apparent discrepance of function between the multiple dungeon entries. Strip 1237 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html) implies that most of them are redundant, but it is odd that Redcloak and Xykon would not have noticed that.

I think that Serini is testing the Order's character and behavior instead of truly attempting to stop it. She failed to stop Xykon on her own and she values sincere, dedicated friendships. My money is that she has been using some form of magical effect to teleport Team Evil to random parts of Kragoor's beast-filled tomb all this time, while she is now taking the measure of the Order of the Stick in order to decide how much to trust them.

[Psyren]

I don't expect the seal to actually be in Kragoor's Gate. Or perhaps what we are seeing is not necessarily Kragoor's Gate anyway.

Serini is putting a lot of effort into making a good show that the Gate is a crucial location that she will defend at all costs.

But a careful reading of strips 276 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) and 277 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) reminds us that the rifts themselves were found in locations not of their choosing and which they all presumably agreed to hide to the best of their abilities.

277 also tells us that Serini built "a tomb for Kraagor (...) with the nastiest beasts in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might" while the other four surviving members of the Order of the Scribble presumably built the gates named after themselves to protect individual sealed rifts of their choice. Technically only Dorukan's and Girard's gates are directly referenced; Lirian's and Soon's are implied.

From more recent strips such as 1227 and 1228 we also know that she changed her plans when Xykon attacked her and that she has been well informed of what happened to the other gates. Oh, and also that she remains fond of misdirection tactics - she is, after all, an epic-level Rogue. Also, she is fully aware of Xykon and even knows that he has her diary.

While Xykon and Redcloak seem to have met some formidable opposition in this dungeon, what we actually saw is much more misdirection-oriented. A Beholder is impressive on its own way, but I would hardly describe Mimics and Piercers as some of the most powerful monsters around.

Even Roy has been saying recently that there must be more to the defenses of this final rift than what we saw this far. There is also the apparent discrepance of function between the multiple dungeon entries. Strip 1237 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html) implies that most of them are redundant, but it is odd that Redcloak and Xykon would not have noticed that.

I think that Serini is testing the Order's character and behavior instead of truly attempting to stop it. She failed to stop Xykon on her own and she values sincere, dedicated friendships. My money is that she has been using some form of magical effect to teleport Team Evil to random parts of Kragoor's beast-filled tomb all this time, while she is now taking the measure of the Order of the Stick in order to decide how much to trust them.

I honestly think the Gate is really here. I don't think Rich would have explicitly lampshaded the possibility of a fake-out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) if he were planning to actually do one.

[hungrycrow]

I honestly think the Gate is really here. I don't think Rich would have explicitly lampshaded the possibility of a fake-out (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) if he were planning to actually do one.

Xykon also got this location from Serini's diary, right? I don't see why she would fake that location but give the real locations of the other gates.

[Psyren]

Xykon also got this location from Serini's diary, right? I don't see why she would fake that location but give the real locations of the other gates.

I mean, let's be real, she absolutely should have done that - but you're right.

[danielxcutter]

I suppose Serini may not have literally had a page where she wrote down the (coded) locations with exact coordinates. Information about the general location might be enough to narrow it down. I do wonder how Serini specifically knew that Soon's Gate was literally in the throne room, though, or at least how Team Evil figured that out - perhaps the building itself was built before the Scribblers broke up, and Soon just founded the Guard?

[Psyren]

I suppose Serini may not have literally had a page where she wrote down the (coded) locations with exact coordinates. Information about the general location might be enough to narrow it down. I do wonder how Serini specifically knew that Soon's Gate was literally in the throne room, though, or at least how Team Evil figured that out - perhaps the building itself was built before the Scribblers broke up, and Soon just founded the Guard?

Team Evil figured it out, not from the diary, but by overhearing Hinjo say so. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html) So her diary probably didn't say "it's in the throne room" (especially since there wouldn't have been a throne room until after they broke up.)

[danielxcutter]

I see! So it didn’t literally have the precise coordinates for each specific Gate, and just the general area. That’s a bit less stupid, yeah.