Ironglass Rose

[danielxcutter]

The Ironglass Rose is a psionic monster that can be found here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psb/20040521c).

Is it just me, or does it seem under-CRed? It's got six tendrils, using its "breath weapon" doesn't interfere with its physical attacks, it's immune to the common weakness of plants, and while the PLAs don't seem to have too high DCs at-will augmented Inertial Armor for a +9 armor bonus when it already has about average AC for its CR means that it's ridiculously hard to kill with martials.

I suppose killing them with touch attacks or spells might make it easier, but between the abilities specific to an Irongrass Rose and the plant type benefits it gets by default it seems overtuned.

Am I correct about this?

[Kaleph]

If I'm reading it correctly, it has a 12d8+120 melee damage potential/round, plus 10d6 AOE force damage, plus 3d3 constitution drain, and all in one round. That's quite the insta-kill for, say, 7th level characters. On the other hand it would be quite vulnerable to debuffs like glitterdust, slow, grease etc. After a slow spell it would particularly suck. Not a well-balanced monster, for sure.

[Quentinas]

If we compare to a ten headed hydra the hydra have 2 attack more but no breath weapon (a normal ten headed hydra) and the attack would be 6d8+48 (for the rose) vs 10d10+50 so the hydra do more damage (on average 75 for the rose , 105 for the hydra) with some big difference first the rose is a good grappler with the damage 6d8+ 72 which is 99 on average, the constitution loss (so 3d3 which is 6 point point of constitution so hit dice *3 of loss of hitpoints) and the breath weapon. On the defensive capabilities the hydra recover more health for turn but take higher damage. It's true that the hydra could boost his damage up to the double (if they destroy the heads in the wrong way) but it's not easy , so for me the rose should have at least 1 point of CR more if we compare to a hydra

[danielxcutter]

If I'm reading it correctly, it has a 12d8+120 melee damage potential/round, plus 10d6 AOE force damage, plus 3d3 constitution drain, and all in one round. That's quite the insta-kill for, say, 7th level characters. On the other hand it would be quite vulnerable to debuffs like glitterdust, slow, grease etc. After a slow spell it would particularly suck. Not a well-balance monster, for sure.

Assuming the tendrils all hit and make the grapple checks... but yes, more than a bit overtuned. It's not just me then.

[Zarvistic]

Looks fine to me at that CR, perhaps it's even too high? I think it really depends on how the fight against this would start and if it's getting any help. If it doesn't start right next to the party, it only has SR/PR 20 and the breath attack. You can pretty safely disregard the rest cause it's speed is 30 over land and it has no fly. Also just putting any kind of damage reduction 10 on the martial takes away a lot of it's offense.

[danielxcutter]

Looks fine to me at that CR, perhaps it's even too high? I think it really depends on how the fight against this would start and if it's getting any help. If it doesn't start right next to the party, it only has SR/PR 20 and the breath attack. You can pretty safely disregard the rest cause it's speed is 30 over land and it has no fly. Also just putting any kind of damage reduction 10 on the martial takes away a lot of it's offense.

Uh… it’s effectively got AC 33, it’s capable of using its tendrils in the same round as it lazers you in the face, SR 20 isn’t exactly that low for the CR… it’s CR 9, not CR 19, and spoiler alert: not every party is full of optimized full casters.

[ciopo]

It looks fine to me? AC 33 is on the high side of stuff but I thumb it at about 13+ to hit for a dedicated melee character, and as said it's trivialized by flight

[danielxcutter]

The average AC at that level is 24. That's seven points higher than that. And that's not including its offensive capabilities.

In short, this is practically designed to kill the martials.

[ciopo]

Napkin barbarian : bab9+str7 (18base +2 levelup + 4 rage) +1mwk wpn +2charge/flank. I wasn't far off from the 13+tohit and that's withiut morale/luck/whatever bonuses from partywide buffs. AC33 is on the high side, for sure, I agree, but it's far from "only hit on a 20" territory. A party of 4 barbarian would probably kill it in 2-3 rounds... which means that the plant should get, worst case scenario, two full attacks.

[danielxcutter]

Spoiler alert: most parties aren’t 4 barbarians either. And 18 base Str at level 1 is pushing it a little.

[Eurus]

It's a bit tough to say, honestly. Compared to other CR 9 monsters it's nuts, but it's also true that a lot of monsters are significantly over-CRed (at least, as solo encounters). As a boss fight, it's not a terrible design... but the combination of really high AC and fairly high spell resistance means that I've definitely seen some parties that just wouldn't be able to scratch it, and if it focuses its damage intelligently it's very likely to kill a PC in a round.

Also, even if you did have the weird hypothetical four-barbarian party, at least two of them are probably getting grappled by opportunity attacks (15 foot reach and combat reflexes!) before they ever get there. Yes, a DPS-charger build can probably take it out in one pounce, but that's not a particularly persuasive argument in regards to CR since very little can survive that regardless of CR.

[ciopo]

Spoiler alert: most parties aren’t 4 barbarians either. And 18 base Str at level 1 is pushing it a little.
No, not really, 16+2 racial. 20 at level 1 would be pushing it, but a starting 18 on the main ability score for the role you want to take is the status quo. Tho I got to say my own experience is a starting 15+2 racial is much more common.

The 4 barbarian was a bit of a jibe, the party itself would of course be that much more effective with a diverse roster of classes, what with stuff like inspire courage or prayer or whatnot to make it even easier for the whole party to hit higher AC



Also, even if you did have the weird hypothetical four-barbarian party, at least two of them are probably getting grappled by opportunity attacks (15 foot reach and combat reflexes!) before they ever get there. Yes, a DPS-charger build can probably take it out in one pounce, but that's not a particularly persuasive argument in regards to CR since very little can survive that regardless of CR.
Or you let it charge you, then it gets one tentacley attack of, and he gets four full attacks in the face, but that's featurless room hypotheticals. I'd think you'd encounter it in a jungle, so there is some possibility it ambushes you.

[Eurus]

Or you let it charge you, then it gets one tentacley attack of, and he gets four full attacks in the face, but that's featurless room hypotheticals. I'd think you'd encounter it in a jungle, so there is some possibility it ambushes you.

Fifteen foot reach means that's still complicated -- it can charge in and hit you from fifteen feet away, then a five foot step still won't get you into melee with it for a full attack unless you've got a reach weapon. But yeah, it's hard to say exactly how it would go because terrain and exact party makeup are so variable. Still, it's a monster with some options, and there are a lot of reasonable party compositions that would have quite a lot of trouble with this thing at an appropriate level.

[danielxcutter]

And again, it's entirely possible for this to delete a PC so hard the party doesn't have enough left to Raise.

[ciopo]

I don't know what to say, I'm the most martial minded in my group , currently 9th level incidentally, and this thing only hits me on a 20 if I go for full combat expertise and I have barkskin/halo fo sand on, which I would against what looks like an obvious "bruiser", and that'd be because I would be engaging it on purpose to prevent it from going for the rest of the party, but otherwise it's not looking particularly out of line.

The point of comparison I have in mind are, because we had an encounter one session ago, greater air elemental, and by comparison this thing is slowish and grounded, giving us plenty of time to get buffed if we so wish to do, unlike the elemental that got what it takes to go for the squishies instead of me, the designated beefwall.

Granted, it was the warlock that carried the damage big time against the elemental, and it would be even more so against this dude, except for that SR, so bleh, but I'm not seeing this nice plant being that risky

I suppose it might be because I have the expectation that if the GM is pulling a web content monster, the players also have adeguate system mastery, too? I surely wouldn't use this moster against vanilla characters, so I concede that point

[Thurbane]

I can pretty safely say if I threw this thing at the last ECL 9 party of 5 I DM'd, there would be one or more deaths.

Admittedly, my players are generally pretty low op.