Making a Tankier Rogue?

[SociopathFriend]

So we're playing Descent into Avernus and per some of the players dropping out and other new ones joining in- I am the only Martial in the game. Everyone else is Sorcerers, Warlocks, and so on.

Now yes, they could be relatively sturdy and good in melee, they're not. We have Druids that could show up- they don't.

With that said- I'm a Level 7 Rogue that has Level 8 banked and ready to go for next session. Given I have an enchanted shield (Hidden Lord, and yes I know what it is) I would like to multiclass into something to both let me wield it AND be a bit better in melee given I am repeatedly stuck in it AND our NPC meatshield has just left the party. I don't necessarily mean hitting better so much as improving my ability to take a hit- though obviously hitting better wouldn't be upsetting.


Rogue Mastermind 7 (Level 8 is the one I'm asking about)
LE Alignment
Stats: 12/16/14/13/14/15
Average HP
Human Race
Criminal Background
Expertise: Deception, Insight, Perception, Stealth
Alert Feat

Studded Leather Armor
Shield of the Hidden Lord
Shortsword
Shortbow

[OldTrees1]

I believe your multiclass options are limited to:
Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard

You want Shield proficiency with a metal shield:
Artificer, Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, Hexblade

You want defense:
Cleric (2 1st level spells, domain), Fighter (+1 AC fighting style, second wind), Hexblade (~6 1st level spells)

Cleric could cast Shield of Faith 2/long rest and get some defensive domain(Forge is +1 AC).
Fighter gets +1 AC and some bonus action healing
Hexblade gets 5 temp HP roughly 6 times per day gia Armor of Agathys


The alternative is going Rogue 8 and getting a Feat/ASI.
Inspiring Leader would be 10 temp HP (per person) roughly 3 times per day


Conclusion:
Rogue 8 in my opinion

[SociopathFriend]

I believe your multiclass options are limited to:
Artificer, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard


This particular DM allows Dexadin for the record- you just have to justify the Oath you plan on taking.
I think I can make a pretty excellent case for Conquest but that's it.

[Drakefall]

Hey, OP.

I think OldTrees1 did a good job listing your options, obviously with the addition of Paladin of Conquest as per your second post so I'll just note my opinions on how I'd progress in the same situation.

Sticking Rogue?

I would only jump to Rogue 8 if you have decided to stay a single-classed Rogue. You'd pick up Moderately Armoured to gain shield proficiency and you can also grab a breastplate if you can to get a further little AC bump. Grabbing Moderately Armoured and then multiclassing would obviously be a waste of an ASI.


Multiclassing?

I think the most effective and fluffy options would be Fighter, Warlock (Hexblade), or Paladin (Conquest).

Fighter's very straightforward and gives you simple and useful abilities. You could take it into Cavalier if you want to be stickier in melee. Solid choice.

Warlock and Paladin work well if you want to make friends with your shield and get some dank magic. Spells like Shield, Wrathful Smite, Bless, Divine Shield, etc. all help bolster you as a defensive melee fighter without requiring higher level slots or a high casting stat to be effective. I think Warlock will give you more bang for your buck in the short term with the short rest recharge on the spell slots, the ability to grab a blade cantrip to make up for reduced Sneak Attack progression, and the helpful invocations. I think it more than makes up for not getting a fighting style or a Hit Dice boost with all those boosts.

If you are going to multiclass I'd say the best way to do it would be to take your 8th level in your new class to get your proficiencies and then your 9th level in Rogue 8 for the ASI. You can use it to increase your Dex or Cha (depending on how you've multiclass) or grab Resilient (Wis), Fey Touched, or some other useful feat.

After that, you can progress your Rogue levels for Sneak Attack or try to tough it out in your new class until you get that sweet extra attack. Rogue X/Warlock 2-3 seems the most attractive option to me. I think between what will be a pretty damn impressive AC, spells to boost that when necessary, strong Dex saves, and the ability to gain resistance to those big attacks that do hit your somewhat lesser HP won't be as big a deal and your longevity should be pretty good.

There are obviously a lot of ways you can go though and I think pretty much all of them will be effective. Artificer might actually be very compelling and strong as well if it fits with the character.

Good luck getting tonky!

[Arkhios]

I'd say stick to rogue, and take Moderately Armored as your 8th level ASI. That gives you both medium armor proficiency and shield proficiency, as well as a choice of +1 str or +1 dex.
Obviously, right now it doesn't do much, in terms of your ability modifiers, but at next ASI level, at rogue 10, you could even out two scores of your choice (the one you choose with the feat (most likely Dex) and maybe Cha?)

8th level in rogue might not itself be that impressive, but at 9th level you get your next Mastermind ability, and I can imagine it wouldn't fun to give up your intended character concept. That way you could keep it and still branch out to doing something extra.


I think OldTrees1 did a good job listing your options, obviously with the addition of Paladin of Conquest as per your second post so I'll just note my opinions on how I'd progress in the same situation.

While I agree OldTrees1 did good job already, I must note that Paladin multiclass is unfortunately out of question*, primarily because rules are clear that you need to have str and cha each at least 13 in order to multiclass to or from paladin.
*unless OP's DM decides to waive the multiclassing requirement.


The alternative is going Rogue 8 and getting a Feat/ASI.
Inspiring Leader would be 10 temp HP (per person) roughly 3 times per day

This is also a good suggestion!

[Kane0]

2 levels in fighter will do wonders for your immediate survivability, which you can do before or after additional rogue levels. Before would let you take shield master sonce you are now proficient, which goes really nicely with both shoving for sneak attacks and advantage on evasion saves.

Just dont pick protection or interception style since that conflicts with uncanny dodge.

Alternatively, kill yourself and have the druid reincarnate you until you roll dwarf on the chart.

[swamp_slug]

The previous posters make a lot of excellent points.

My personal opinion, would be to multiclass at level 8, then take another level of Rogue for level 9. This means that you don't waste a feat on Moderately Armoured but can spend it on Medium Armor Master instead, which is extra AC due to your high Dex and stealth in all medium armor.

As to which class to multiclass into, I would recommend Fighter: take Defense Fighting Style for extra AC and then look at Battle Master, for maneuvers such as Bait and Switch, Riposte and Precision Attack, or Samurai for THP and guaranteed Advantage three times per day.

[Drakefall]

While I agree OldTrees1 did good job already, I must note that Paladin multiclass is unfortunately out of question*, primarily because rules are clear that you need to have str and cha each at least 13 in order to multiclass to or from paladin.
*unless OP's DM decides to waive the multiclassing requirement.
They did.


This particular DM allows Dexadin for the record- you just have to justify the Oath you plan on taking.
I think I can make a pretty excellent case for Conquest but that's it.
See? :smallwink:


The previous posters make a lot of excellent points.

My personal opinion, would be to multiclass at level 8, then take another level of Rogue for level 9. This means that you don't waste a feat on Moderately Armoured but can spend it on Medium Armor Master instead, which is extra AC due to your high Dex and stealth in all medium armor.

As to which class to multiclass into, I would recommend Fighter: take Defense Fighting Style for extra AC and then look at Battle Master, for maneuvers such as Bait and Switch, Riposte and Precision Attack, or Samurai for THP and guaranteed Advantage three times per day.

These are both great ways to go if OP wants to stay away from magic. Simple and effective in both cases.

[Arkhios]

They did.


See? :smallwink:

I... did not notice that! Nevermind then.

[strangebloke]

So if you were building from level 1 I would recommend going barbarogue but that requires building around strength which may not be practical for you.


I will agree with Kane0. Take your next level in fighter, get shield and medium armor proficiency. Your AC goes from 16-17 to 18-19 instantly and you get second wind which translates to a LOT of free healing over the course of an adventuring day. Grab defense style if you want to go hard on defense. Then go back to rogue for an ASI, and grab either shield master or sentinel, both of which will help you 'tank.' Shield master makes you able to lock down foes and make them slower such that they can't get to the back line and benefit more from your magic shield. Sentinel lets you reduce speeds to zero outright and ALSO gives you huge damage buffs because you can sneak attack on the reaction attack you get in melee.

From there, I'd probably go back to fighter. Either go BM and play with reaction maneuvers (brace and riposte) to get loads of free damage, or maybe go EK for stuff like shield. The action surge will give you plenty of damage (you can use the second action to ready an attack and double dip on sneak attack.)

[Dork_Forge]

I'd say take a Fighter level:

-Slight hp bump

-Second Wind combined with Uncanny Dodge should make you really durable

For Fighting Style you have some options:

Defense for higher AC

Parry for the attacks where Uncanny might still down you, but that's pretty niche

I'd probably go with Defense if you're looking to be sturdier and swap out the short sword for a rapier.

Barbarian works really, really well, but as Strangebloke pointed out, that's dependent on Str.

I wouldn't MC into Paladin, that first level would be incredibly minor in terms of helping your actual survivability.

[stoutstien]

Vote for fighter dip as well. High return regardless of how deep you dip.

[strangebloke]

You know, ironically bladesinger could be really good here if you have a decent int mod. Mage Armor, Shield, and eventually stuff like blur would be really good, on top of bladesinging.

Doesn't let you use the shield but you know.

[Dork_Forge]

You know, ironically bladesinger could be really good here if you have a decent int mod. Mage Armor, Shield, and eventually stuff like blur would be really good, on top of bladesinging.

Doesn't let you use the shield but you know.

They have a 13 Int, and Bladesinger would likely yield worse results for a long time until more slots and higher level spells come online.

At 8th level it's just less hit points and 3 1st level spells a day.

[SociopathFriend]

ight not itself be that impressive, but at 9th level you get your next Mastermind ability, and I can imagine it wouldn't fun to give up your intended character concept. That way you could keep it and still branch out to doing something extra.


The intended concept was something like, "The drive to rise". More or less the idea that most people will be content to reach a certain point and stop when comfortable- but this character will always be driven to do more, to take more, to achieve and press his limits.

And the background set him up as a babe, stolen by thieves on-accident, and so largely grown up without traditional morals. Your worth is gauged by how much you can manipulate and control someone- that is how you are 'strong'.
Mastermind was the start of it but the character imo has well-established his ability to adapt and grow through both word and deed in the campaign.

His current goal is more or less wondering how he can end up controlling Elturel upon freeing it from Avernus (which he was contracted to do). But for the last several sessions he's also been clear that he's fighting a lot more up-close and personal compared to his normal back-stabbing routine and it's something he's trying to improve in.

I'm not the best at planting an idea but imo I do quite decently encouraging it to grow.




Alternatively, kill yourself and have the druid reincarnate you until you roll dwarf on the chart.


Druid has to show up to a session more than once every two months for that to be viable.


Still reading through all the responses- they're all appreciated.

[Nidgit]

Agreed that a quick Fighter dip is the best option. If we're including Defense as the fighting style, that's a 3+ AC bonus and access to Second Wind without using your next ASI. Plus, you're one step closer to Action Surge, which is fantastic for Rogues if you're Readying an action for another off-turn Sneak Attack.

Hexblade's a decent option too since I assume you've got decent Charisma. You'd be getting sturdier while setting up for some potential Invocation synergy with Mastermind.

Cleric's fine too if that's the direction you want to go in.

[Man_Over_Game]

Agreed that a quick Fighter dip is the best option. If we're including Defense as the fighting style, that's a 3+ AC bonus and access to Second Wind without using your next ASI. Plus, you're one step closer to Action Surge, which is fantastic for Rogues if you're Readying an action for another off-turn Sneak Attack.

Hexblade's a decent option too since I assume you've got decent Charisma. You'd be getting sturdier while setting up for some potential Invocation synergy with Mastermind.

Cleric's fine too if that's the direction you want to go in.

I'd normally agree with Hexblade, but one big selling point is Shield, which directly conflicts with the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge.

[stoutstien]

I'd normally agree with Hexblade, but one big selling point is Shield, which directly conflicts with the Rogue's Uncanny Dodge.

Would be interesting to compare the flat AC+second wind gain through the fighter dip compared to the one shield of short rest that you get through hexblade. For this particular example you know you're going to have at least a plus two shield to work with so playing on with the low 20s for Armor class it's just when that question gets interesting

[Odessa333]

Fighter is a strong option if you want to multiclass. Still, to offer an alternate, consider artificer. With 2 levels you can craft yourself magic armor/shield for more AC, you can get a magic weapon, or even a bag of holding. Plus it comes with healing spells. I would likely not multiclass and take the moderately armored feat myself, though you have options.

[SociopathFriend]

Agreed that a quick Fighter dip is the best option. If we're including Defense as the fighting style, that's a 3+ AC bonus and access to Second Wind without using your next ASI. Plus, you're one step closer to Action Surge, which is fantastic for Rogues if you're Readying an action for another off-turn Sneak Attack.

Hexblade's a decent option too since I assume you've got decent Charisma. You'd be getting sturdier while setting up for some potential Invocation synergy with Mastermind.

I haven't checked out Invocations all that much beyond the PHB- does Tasha and Xanathar add anything particularly noteworthy for something like this?

[RogueJK]

I agree with the recommendation for Fighter 1 for Medium Armor + Shield + Defense fighting style, followed by Rogue 8 for Inspiring Leader. That's +3 AC right there (or +4 if you acquire a Breastplate), plus the magic shield bonuses. And a decent chunk of Temp HP for you and everyone in the party each short rest.

From there, after Rogue 8/Fighter 1, decide if you want to pick up some additional Fighter levels more than you want upper level Rogue abilities. 2 levels of Fighter gets you Action Surge, 3 gets you Battlemaster Maneuvers, 4 gets you an ASI, 5 gets you Extra Attack, and 6 gets you another ASI. Any of those are viable stopping points before returning to Rogue, as is stopping at just the Fighter 1 dip and going straight Rogue.


I haven't checked out Invocations all that much beyond the PHB- does Tasha and Xanathar add anything particularly noteworthy for something like this?

No, not for what you're wanting.

[Witty Username]

A level in ranger will get you medium armor and shields, and an extra skill. seems like a good pick. Also a second level will get you an extra 20 hit points with good berries.

[Eldariel]

You could take a level in Rogue and put a feat into Moderately Armored for shields and medium armor for now, which would allow you to push up to 19 AC. You have Uncanny Dodge but vs. multiple enemies and multiattackers you probably also want the option of casting Shield. The only way to get everything you could want with one level dip is Hexblade: this would get you medium armor and shield proficiencies, Shield-spell (1/SR for now but 2/SR in a level), Hexblade's Curse (goes great with sneak attack actually) and few decent other spells. Second level would get you two invocations too.

Overall, I think your options are something like:
1. Hexblade
2. Cleric (specific domain is a harder call, but getting Shield of Faith when your Concentration is free is pretty sweet even if you can't Concentrate for all that long on average)
3. Artificer
4. Paladin of Conquest
5. Bladesinger
6. Barbarian
7. Fighter

In about that order, from best to worst. Spells obviously add a ton to your ability to deal with different kinds of issues and the two classes that give you proficiencies and spells are Hexblade and Cleric (far as domains go, Forge, Peace, Arcana, etc. are all good). Additionally, Booming Blade and Green-Flame Blade are obviously a straight-up improvement over your plain attack so there's no real reason to stick to attacking the oldfashioned way. Absorb Elements is another nice spell though again, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion do already do good work there.


With stats this average, you could actually audit towards Charisma-centric Warlock/Rogue with Hexblade to keep your ranged and melee options open (Eldritch Blast and Pact Weapon). One Cha half-feat on Rogue 8 and you're on track (e.g. Fey-Touched or Shadow-Touched).

[Sillybird99]

Overall, I think your options are something like:
1. Hexblade
2. Cleric (specific domain is a harder call, but getting Shield of Faith when your Concentration is free is pretty sweet even if you can't Concentrate for all that long on average)
3. Artificer
4. Paladin of Conquest
5. Bladesinger
6. Barbarian
7. Fighter



Bladesinger would require multiple levels to get OP even close to what they want. Fighter being at the bottom seems silly since it gives the highest bang for buck according to what OP wants= survivability, although paladin, cleric (certain domains) and barbarian probably tie for that but with the cost(?) of being divine or having lower AC. Everything else is less survivable and has more roleplaying implications. Fighter seems like the safest and possibly best option.

**edit** actually AC doesn't matter that much because of their dex bonus to AC, making armor proficiency more meaningless than I initially calculated. Regardless, I think second wind and rage are the best optionss for non-magical survivability and with the fewest level dips.

[Eldariel]

Bladesinger would require multiple levels to get OP even close to what they want. Fighter being at the bottom seems silly since it gives the highest bang for buck according to what OP wants= survivability, although paladin, cleric (certain domains) and barbarian probably tie for that but with the cost(?) of being divine or having lower AC. Everything else is less survivable and has more roleplaying implications. Fighter seems like the safest and possibly best option.

**edit** actually AC doesn't matter that much because of their dex bonus to AC, making armor proficiency more meaningless than I initially calculated. Regardless, I think second wind and rage are the best optionss for non-magical survivability and with the fewest level dips.

Second Wind on this level is peanuts. Like your HP total is gonna be...8+5*7+2*8=59ish. Healing 6,5 is like a 10% heal. It's not nothing but it's not something to write home about either. Rage is good though; it scales with your HP total, essentially making you go from 60 to 120 HP vs. physical attacks. That said, Rage has the issue of not working vs. elemental damage and considering the adventure path and typical enemies, those are like to be fairly common (particularly fire). It's still fine but not as good as it would be otherwise.

This is why I think it's more valuable to just grab useful spellcasting instead, though if you have to pick between Barb and Fighter, Barb by a long shot, unless you plan to go at least 3 levels deep (Battlemaster is a great dip for a Rogue thanks to Brace, Riposte & Precision Attack). But like, Forge Cleric gets the same AC as Defense style Fighter and on top of that the ability to cast e.g. Bless or Shield of Faith 2xday for even more AC or team save+attack buffs depending on which is necessary. Which I think will amount to more than 1d10+1 HP per short rest. Hexblade OTOH gets Shield 1/SR for when you're fighting multiple enemies alongside Hexblade's Curse (which is great on a Rogue) and other kinds of stuff, and Artificer 1 gets some decent stuff (though not Shield or Shield of Faith specifically). If I were to go Artificer, Pally, Bladesinger or Fighter, it would have to be a multilevel dip while Hexblade, Cleric and Barbarian make sense as single level dips. Hexblade and Arcana Cleric also get Booming Blade as a damage buff & tank ignoring punisher, which is pretty nice.

[stoutstien]

Second wind is like a free HD that recharges on a SR and can be used when you can't rest. Even at lv 1 it's nothing to write off as a weak feature. Only takes 1HP to be a threat.

[Dork_Forge]

Second wind is like a free HD that recharges on a SR and can be used when you can't rest. Even at lv 1 it's nothing to write off as a weak feature. Only takes 1HP to be a threat.

Pretty much this, when a class has no self healing, anything is nice. You could even argue that to some degree it's worth double, since they're high enough in Rogue for both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

I think some optimisers write off hp unless it's in huge amounts, and I think that's a mistake.

[strangebloke]

Bladesinger would require multiple levels to get OP even close to what they want. Fighter being at the bottom seems silly since it gives the highest bang for buck according to what OP wants= survivability, although paladin, cleric (certain domains) and barbarian probably tie for that but with the cost(?) of being divine or having lower AC. Everything else is less survivable and has more roleplaying implications. Fighter seems like the safest and possibly best option.

**edit** actually AC doesn't matter that much because of their dex bonus to AC, making armor proficiency more meaningless than I initially calculated. Regardless, I think second wind and rage are the best optionss for non-magical survivability and with the fewest level dips.
Barbarian is bad because you miss out on tons of benefits of the class by way of being dexterity focused. Can't get rage damage, can't use reckless. There's a lot of negative synergy here that makes a traditional barbarogue a bad idea imo.

The AC bonus isn't trivial. OP has a +2 shield and if they pick up defense style and use half plate they'll go from 16-17 to 22.

Second Wind on this level is peanuts. Like your HP total is gonna be...8+5*7+2*8=59ish. Healing 6,5 is like a 10% heal. It's not nothing but it's not something to write home about either. Rage is good though; it scales with your HP total, essentially making you go from 60 to 120 HP vs. physical attacks. That said, Rage has the issue of not working vs. elemental damage and considering the adventure path and typical enemies, those are like to be fairly common (particularly fire). It's still fine but not as good as it would be otherwise.

This is why I think it's more valuable to just grab useful spellcasting instead, though if you have to pick between Barb and Fighter, Barb by a long shot, unless you plan to go at least 3 levels deep (Battlemaster is a great dip for a Rogue thanks to Brace, Riposte & Precision Attack). But like, Forge Cleric gets the same AC as Defense style Fighter and on top of that the ability to cast e.g. Bless or Shield of Faith 2xday for even more AC or team save+attack buffs depending on which is necessary. Which I think will amount to more than 1d10+1 HP per short rest. Hexblade OTOH gets Shield 1/SR for when you're fighting multiple enemies alongside Hexblade's Curse (which is great on a Rogue) and other kinds of stuff, and Artificer 1 gets some decent stuff (though not Shield or Shield of Faith specifically). If I were to go Artificer, Pally, Bladesinger or Fighter, it would have to be a multilevel dip while Hexblade, Cleric and Barbarian make sense as single level dips. Hexblade and Arcana Cleric also get Booming Blade as a damage buff & tank ignoring punisher, which is pretty nice.

With hit dice healing a seventh level rogue has 94.5 (6d8+14+8+7d8+14) hp total. 1 level of fighter increases this by 1d10+1 per short rest, 1d10+CON HP and 1d10+CON hit dice.

That's a total of 129 hp of hp and natural healing on a two short rest day, or a 36% increase in one level.

[Arkhios]

With hexblade brought up, you could take a level now, grab those juicy cliche features from the first level, then 8th level in rogue and take Medium Armor Master, for best potential AC in medium armor sans defense fighting style, and then continue as a hexblade, eventually turning your ASI focus from Dexterity to Charisma.

You also might want to consider taking Fighting Initiate feat to eventually grab even that Defense Fighting Style.

[Dork_Forge]

With hexblade brought up, you could take a level now, grab those juicy cliche features from the first level, then 8th level in rogue and take Medium Armor Master, for best potential AC in medium armor sans defense fighting style, and then continue as a hexblade, eventually turning your ASI focus from Dexterity to Charisma.

You also might want to consider taking Fighting Initiate feat to eventually grab even that Defense Fighting Style.

Their Dex is 16 and Cha is 15, by switching at this point all they're really achieving is putting their progression behind.

[Arkhios]

Their Dex is 16 and Cha is 15, by switching at this point all they're really achieving is putting their progression behind.

At this point nothing changes, in that regard. Hexblade doesn't force you to use Charisma. It gives you the option to do so. Going forward, you can opt to focus on Charisma, leaving Dexterity at 16 while increasing Charisma further. But you don't have to. Dex based Hexblade is just as viable. It is, as I said, just an option the Patron grants, not a mandatory path going forward.

Key Ability score at 16 is perfectly fine through a character's whole career, due to bounded accuracy. Getting higher score is certainly nice to have, but not at all mandatory.

That said, there was another thing I thought I might address, but forgot.

Paladin is able to get much higher AC than a fighter, because they, too, can take the Defense Fighting Style, and they can also cast Shield of Faith. The downside is that they get both at 2nd level, while fighter gets fighting style at first level, and therefore, I'd say fighter is a stronger dip.

[Dork_Forge]

At this point nothing changes, in that regard. Hexblade doesn't force you to use Charisma. It gives you the option to do so. Going forward, you can opt to focus on Charisma, leaving Dexterity at 16 while increasing Charisma further. But you don't have to. Dex based Hexblade is just as viable. It is, as I said, just an option the Patron grants, not a mandatory path going forward.

Key Ability score at 16 is perfectly fine through a character's whole career, due to bounded accuracy. Getting higher score is certainly nice to have, but not at all mandatory.

I was specifically referring to the proposition of switching scores, in terms of leaving primary score at 16, yes that's perfectly fine, but given just how many things Dex impacts, it's particularly useful to not leave there.

[Eldariel]

Second wind is like a free HD that recharges on a SR and can be used when you can't rest. Even at lv 1 it's nothing to write off as a weak feature. Only takes 1HP to be a threat.

Exactly, on level 1 it's not nothing but on level 8, it is. It's a great feature on level 1 but scales horribly.


Barbarian is bad because you miss out on tons of benefits of the class by way of being dexterity focused. Can't get rage damage, can't use reckless. There's a lot of negative synergy here that makes a traditional barbarogue a bad idea imo.

The AC bonus isn't trivial. OP has a +2 shield and if they pick up defense style and use half plate they'll go from 16-17 to 22.

Barbarian gets to 21 while still halving damage, Forge Cleric would get to 22, . Even with the negative synergy, it's probably worth more. Fighter gives you a slightly advanced hit die tool while Barb lets you take on tougher fights. Reckless doesn't matter since you're probably only dipping one level if you go the Barb route.


With hit dice healing a seventh level rogue has 94.5 (6d8+14+8+7d8+14) hp total. 1 level of fighter increases this by 1d10+1 per short rest, 1d10+CON HP and 1d10+CON hit dice.

That's a total of 129 hp of hp and natural healing on a two short rest day, or a 36% increase in one level.

Sure, but that doesn't affect what you can take in one fight, it only lets you go longer. If another multiclass would make you tankier enough to take less damage in a fight, it can easily give you more overall durability - reducing/preventing damage is generally at the very least competitive with healing it. Remember, Barbarian would give you 2d12 in terms of HP + HD, Paladin would give you 5/level Lay on Hands, and all of them get a HD and level. The difference between Fighter and other classes is Second Wind for 6,5*3 = 19,5 HP over a day assuming two short rests, which is in the neighbourhood of 15% - but of course, e.g. Barb's Rage can easily reduce damage you take over a day by more than that as can e.g. Hexblade's Shield, Cleric's Shield of Faith or Bless, etc.

[OldTrees1]

Barbarian gets to 21 while still halving damage, Forge Cleric would get to 22, . Even with the negative synergy, it's probably worth more. Fighter gives you a slightly advanced hit die tool while Barb lets you take on tougher fights. Reckless doesn't matter since you're probably only dipping one level if you go the Barb route.

Did I miss when the 12 Strength stopped being an issue?

Paladin was mentioned as a special exception. I don't believe Dexbarians were confirmed by the OP yet. So I think the 12 Strength means Barbarian 1 requires Rogue 8 AND not taking either Medium Armored or Inspiring Leader.

[stoutstien]

Pretty much this, when a class has no self healing, anything is nice. You could even argue that to some degree it's worth double, since they're high enough in Rogue for both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.

I think some optimisers write off hp unless it's in huge amounts, and I think that's a mistake.

Aye. HP is a hard one to value past a vague general idea but second wind is such a under rated feature because it's the best of all worlds. It isn't magical/spell, it comes back on a SR, it's usable in or out of combat, it scales okay enough for what it is, and it's a lv 1 feature.
Tracking healing for my tables it's constantly in the top 5 EHP tools once you factor in how important the HP is right then and not after the fact. It's a spell slot saver.

[Eldariel]

It isn't magical/spell

Why is this an advantage? You have to take a level in a class that doesn't gain spell slots to gain it so this is at best a wash - every level in Fighter is fewer spell slots for the party.

EDIT: It's somewhat comparable to Song of Rest though except Song of Rest applies to the whole party while Second Wind, if superior in numbers, is personal only meaning practically speaking I'd rather have Song of Rest (in spite of Bard being a great class even without the ability).

[strangebloke]

Barbarian gets to 21 while still halving damage, Forge Cleric would get to 22, . Even with the negative synergy, it's probably worth more. Fighter gives you a slightly advanced hit die tool while Barb lets you take on tougher fights. Reckless doesn't matter since you're probably only dipping one level if you go the Barb route.

Sure, but that doesn't affect what you can take in one fight, it only lets you go longer. If another multiclass would make you tankier enough to take less damage in a fight, it can easily give you more overall durability - reducing/preventing damage is generally at the very least competitive with healing it. Remember, Barbarian would give you 2d12 in terms of HP + HD, Paladin would give you 5/level Lay on Hands, and all of them get a HD and level. The difference between Fighter and other classes is Second Wind for 6,5*3 = 19,5 HP over a day assuming two short rests, which is in the neighbourhood of 15% - but of course, e.g. Barb's Rage can easily reduce damage you take over a day by more than that as can e.g. Hexblade's Shield, Cleric's Shield of Faith or Bless, etc.

Hexblade casting shield doesn't work because you can't cast shield while holding sword and shield unless you also have warcaster which our guy doesn't. Unless I suppose you're doing some kind of janky strat where you have your weapon drawn or undrawn at the end of every turn.

Barbarian just gives you HP and nothing else, its a boring choice with no opportunity for further development and negative synergy because you can't use cunning action when you rage and can't use rage damage. Rage reduction is also less good by this point because a significant fraction of all damage will not be B/S/P, and because the guy here already has uncanny dodge to reduce damage by 50% on heavy hits. It does offer more total HP in a very hard fight, but overall I don't think its a good choice.

Cleric might be better than fighter depending on various factors but thematically might not work for this character. (Usually I would say this of hexblade as well, but considering the shield it seems about right.)

[Arkhios]

Why is this an advantage? You have to take a level in a class that doesn't gain spell slots to gain it so this is at best a wash - every level in Fighter is fewer spell slots for the party.

EDIT: It's somewhat comparable to Song of Rest though except Song of Rest applies to the whole party while Second Wind, if superior in numbers, is personal only meaning practically speaking I'd rather have Song of Rest (in spite of Bard being a great class even without the ability).

Well, they (the OP) have survived this far without having spell slots. And there are circumstances where magic simply doesn't work. It is situational, but it is an advantage to be able to regain hit points reliably without magic, even in mid-combat.

Then there is the slight possibility that not everyone thinks that magic and spell slots solves everything.

[Dork_Forge]

Why is this an advantage? You have to take a level in a class that doesn't gain spell slots to gain it so this is at best a wash - every level in Fighter is fewer spell slots for the party.

EDIT: It's somewhat comparable to Song of Rest though except Song of Rest applies to the whole party while Second Wind, if superior in numbers, is personal only meaning practically speaking I'd rather have Song of Rest (in spite of Bard being a great class even without the ability).

Non magical is more reliable, no spell slots means nothing in this case since the OP is a Mastermind Rogue, they aren't losing anything.

Song of Rest is not the same at all, being less HP and requiring a short rest to use, it's an entirely different class of healing ability.

[stoutstien]

Why is this an advantage? You have to take a level in a class that doesn't gain spell slots to gain it so this is at best a wash - every level in Fighter is fewer spell slots for the party.

EDIT: It's somewhat comparable to Song of Rest though except Song of Rest applies to the whole party while Second Wind, if superior in numbers, is personal only meaning practically speaking I'd rather have Song of Rest (in spite of Bard being a great class even without the ability).

Not being magical means it can't be blocked or stopped and you don't have the juggling issue with certain spells with components. You also don't have the one leveled spell per turn thing.

Comparing it to song of rest is interesting because second wind can be used as active mitigation where song of rest is purely extra recovery assuming they have the HD to spend.
It's one of the reasons second wind is so good. It enhances song of rest because you have "more" HDs in a day to throw around.

[MrCharlie]

So we're playing Descent into Avernus and per some of the players dropping out and other new ones joining in- I am the only Martial in the game. Everyone else is Sorcerers, Warlocks, and so on.

Now yes, they could be relatively sturdy and good in melee, they're not. We have Druids that could show up- they don't.

With that said- I'm a Level 7 Rogue that has Level 8 banked and ready to go for next session. Given I have an enchanted shield (Hidden Lord, and yes I know what it is) I would like to multiclass into something to both let me wield it AND be a bit better in melee given I am repeatedly stuck in it AND our NPC meatshield has just left the party. I don't necessarily mean hitting better so much as improving my ability to take a hit- though obviously hitting better wouldn't be upsetting.


Rogue Mastermind 7 (Level 8 is the one I'm asking about)
LE Alignment
Stats: 12/16/14/13/14/15
Average HP
Human Race
Criminal Background
Expertise: Deception, Insight, Perception, Stealth
Alert Feat

Studded Leather Armor
Shield of the Hidden Lord
Shortsword
Shortbow

Long term, fighter (battlemaster)/rogue is basically the best straight martial rogue imaginable right now. It works much better with a swashbuckler though. Even without swashbuckler, riposte, brace, quick toss, and precise attack all make you spectacularly good at triggering more sneak attacks.

The real problem is that mastermind is doing almost literally nothing for you. Your best bet to have return in investment for battlemaster levels is to get in a melee position for sneak attack then pray that someone sends a familiar to aid or a summon to flank with you for a riposte or brace sneak attack. Rogue/Fighter works great as a frontline, but only with swashbuckler and battlemaster both to make it worth the risk with your d8 hit die. When surrounded Swashbuckler/Battlemasters can bonus action disengage, move around until they can attack in sneak attack position, then walk away and use brace to get two sneak attacks opportunities the majority of the time. A surrounded mastermind/battlemaster is basically DOA.

(I'd personally beg for some DM intervention to let me retrain, but I'm shameless)

Immediately, cleric is the most defensive multiclass 90% of the time, and this is no exception. It's going to be pretty much dead at higher levels though, as you will never achieve notable spellcasting.

[Melil12]

Rogue/Fighter Echo Knight has a lot of useful synergy.

Teleporting around and attacking via your shadow. Our campaign has a soul knife rogue/ fighter echo knight. Using thrown psionic knifes has proven to be fairly strong.

[NecessaryWeevil]

A single melee character isn't going to cut it, regardless of how it's built, unless the casters are playing well.
How good are they at providing buffs, summoned allies, etc.? That might affect the build suggestions.

[SociopathFriend]

A single melee character isn't going to cut it, regardless of how it's built, unless the casters are playing well.
How good are they at providing buffs, summoned allies, etc.? That might affect the build suggestions.

(rampant laughter)
I haven't been buffed in a fight yet and nobody has summoned a thing.

The Celestial Patron Warlock shoots things and the Wild Magic Sorcerer shoots things.



Rogue/Fighter Echo Knight has a lot of useful synergy.

Teleporting around and attacking via your shadow. Our campaign has a soul knife rogue/ fighter echo knight. Using thrown psionic knifes has proven to be fairly strong.

Huh- I've never looked into Echo Knight. Some sort of psychic teleporter?


Also for the ones who mentioned it- Dexadin was an exception to multiclass requirements. Not a rule. Barbarians still need Strength.

[OldTrees1]

Also for the ones who mentioned it- Dexadin was an exception to multiclass requirements. Not a rule. Barbarians still need Strength.

Good to know.

I did a 1 level analysis at the start and concluded the 1 level look ahead was choosing between
Forge Cleric 1, Fighter 1, Hexblade 1, Rogue with Moderate Armor, or Rogue with Inspiring Leader (no +4 AC shield, but everyone gets lots of THP per combat)

How many levels are you considering for the look ahead?

[SociopathFriend]

Good to know.

I did a 1 level analysis at the start and concluded the 1 level look ahead was choosing between
Forge Cleric 1, Fighter 1, Hexblade 1, Rogue with Moderate Armor, or Rogue with Inspiring Leader (no +4 AC shield, but everyone gets lots of THP per combat)

How many levels are you considering for the look ahead?

I dunno what Avernus caps at but the Mastermind 9 perk holds no interest for me and I doubt the campaign goes to 14-15 (which would be needed for 1-2 multiclass Levels and the 13th Mastermind feature).

So frankly- I'm fully willing to go multiple levels in a different class. The only reason I would level as a Rogue again is the ASI/feat.



On a side note eesh- Avernus is mean to good aligned characters. The Lawful Good Celestial Patron Warlock came just shy of death within a day purely from existing.

[Eldariel]

Not being magical means it can't be blocked or stopped and you don't have the juggling issue with certain spells with components. You also don't have the one leveled spell per turn thing.

Comparing it to song of rest is interesting because second wind can be used as active mitigation where song of rest is purely extra recovery assuming they have the HD to spend.
It's one of the reasons second wind is so good. It enhances song of rest because you have "more" HDs in a day to throw around.

All of those seem pretty trivial; on this level, bonus action to heal 6,5 is peanuts so it being usable in combat isn't really that relevant. It's more of a sustenance tool. And sure, if you have both, Song and Second Wind, you'll downtime heal even faster, but that's again a greater level investment. Every level not giving spells is a level that weakens the party's sustenance and resuscitation ability; of course, resources can also temper the loss of resources instead in which case you're actively preventing HP loss instead of recovering it, but potentially getting a fairly significant amount of "HP damage prevented" for e.g. a CC spell.

It's a great level 1 ability; you're healing almost 50% of your HP by that point. That's strong! But on this level you're healing maybe 10%, which isn't all that since the damage enemies deal increases proportionally with level thus making it basically undo one-third of a hit or something from a CR appropriate foe.

[Dork_Forge]

All of those seem pretty trivial; on this level, bonus action to heal 6,5 is peanuts so it being usable in combat isn't really that relevant. It's more of a sustenance tool. And sure, if you have both, Song and Second Wind, you'll downtime heal even faster, but that's again a greater level investment. Every level not giving spells is a level that weakens the party's sustenance and resuscitation ability; of course, resources can also temper the loss of resources instead in which case you're actively preventing HP loss instead of recovering it, but potentially getting a fairly significant amount of "HP damage prevented" for e.g. a CC spell.

It's a great level 1 ability; you're healing almost 50% of your HP by that point. That's strong! But on this level you're healing maybe 10%, which isn't all that since the damage enemies deal increases proportionally with level thus making it basically undo one-third of a hit or something from a CR appropriate foe.

In this particular build hp goes further since the OP has both Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, making the most out of the hp pool they have.

Some things of note:

1) Your stance can be read as any level that doesn't give you spellcasting is a detriment to the party, you would be very hard pressed to actually prove that.

2) CR appropriate foes are not going to make up the bulk of what you fight, multiple, lower CR foes likely will.

[strangebloke]

All of those seem pretty trivial; on this level, bonus action to heal 6,5 is peanuts so it being usable in combat isn't really that relevant. It's more of a sustenance tool. And sure, if you have both, Song and Second Wind, you'll downtime heal even faster, but that's again a greater level investment. Every level not giving spells is a level that weakens the party's sustenance and resuscitation ability; of course, resources can also temper the loss of resources instead in which case you're actively preventing HP loss instead of recovering it, but potentially getting a fairly significant amount of "HP damage prevented" for e.g. a CC spell.

It's a great level 1 ability; you're healing almost 50% of your HP by that point. That's strong! But on this level you're healing maybe 10%, which isn't all that since the damage enemies deal increases proportionally with level thus making it basically undo one-third of a hit or something from a CR appropriate foe.

Compared to what? Hexblade shield doesn't work (no warcaster) and barbarian also doesn't work (no strength).

That leaves cleric which yes is strong but may not be thematically appropriate (and I'd argue over three levels fighter does a lot more because of things like brace)

[MrCharlie]

I dunno what Avernus caps at but the Mastermind 9 perk holds no interest for me and I doubt the campaign goes to 14-15 (which would be needed for 1-2 multiclass Levels and the 13th Mastermind feature).

So frankly- I'm fully willing to go multiple levels in a different class. The only reason I would level as a Rogue again is the ASI/feat.



On a side note eesh- Avernus is mean to good aligned characters. The Lawful Good Celestial Patron Warlock came just shy of death within a day purely from existing.
I'd recommend a fighter then, for battlemaster maneuvers eventually. People are right that second wind basically sucks, but you will want more feats, fighting styles are good and this gets you one earlier, and battlemaster maneuvers are the most reliable way to get reaction attacks in the game. Spellcasting classes won't get the good stuff for at least 5 levels (most level 1 and 2 spells suck at higher levels, particularly with your mediocre casting stats), at which point you're already getting extra attack, and have had maneuvers for 2 levels.

Also, so as not to spoil the adventure path your guess as to the levels is almost spot on the money; Level 13 is expected, but you can likely get to 14 or 15 if your DM rewards XP for the final few chapters and lets you level mid-way through, depending on your choices, so you might just barely get the level 6 fighter feat.

Also, to briefly forray into this strange drive to get you to become a spellcaster-Your wisdom and charisma are both mediocre (<16). Even with a good wisdom or charisma an ultra-majority of creatures have magic resistance in this campaign. Further, battlemaster maneuvers are basically better spells-reaction attacks, bonus action attacks, rider conditions on attacks-for a rogue. Put together, there is zero reason to go for a spellcasting in the long term.

Short term, cleric is still the best choice for solving the AC problem (forge cleric+shield of faith), but your AC will be fine the second you take a fighter level and can put on uber-shield.

As an aside, remember you can wear medium armor. 14+2 (Scale armor) is better than 12+3 (studded leather), and in general you should put on the best armor the party finds. Stealth isn't worth dying.

[Eldariel]

Then there is the slight possibility that not everyone thinks that magic and spell slots solves everything.

What do you mean by this? Spell slots and magic are just one resource among many, but they are the resource with most possible uses and thus the resource that can do the largest number of different things in the game. Thus, while they can't solve everything, I have yet to see any convincing arguments suggesting that other resources are as valuable and definitely find it hard to believe that not getting resources is as strong as getting more resources (e.g. similar AC-boosts simply don't exist anywhere else in the system).

Doesn't seem like a matter of "thinking" to me: the system is there, the numbers are there. They either are something or are not something. One can believe whatever, but the numbers are what they are and they're relatively easy to compare to others - you have a raw number, then cost (LR resource/total resource, SR resource/total resource), then duration/span. While base assumptions such as number and type of encounters per LR does vary, if you just default to the 2 SR/6-8 encounter with 3 rounds each day, you get fairly usable numbers as the function of the level.

Similarly with levels - 1 level is worth 1 level. Thus what you get for each level can be directly compared to any other level. Thus if you e.g. get spell slots from one level and not from the other, what you get from the other must be better enough than the spell slots (i.e. provide more over your average day than the spell slots) that it's reasonable to take the non-spell pick, which is sadly rarely the case in 5e.


Compared to what? Hexblade shield doesn't work (no warcaster) and barbarian also doesn't work (no strength).

That leaves cleric which yes is strong but may not be thematically appropriate (and I'd argue over three levels fighter does a lot more because of things like brace)

Sure, Hexblade needs two levels to make Shield easy to use; one for War Caster and one for Shield. Even then, Booming Blade, Hexblade's Curse (including the heal), med/heavy armor, cantrips & spell slot (which can also just grant some long duration buff like AoA to gain +5 HP every SR more or less - this way no need to worry about War Caster) seems like a pretty darn solid set of stuff for one level. Of course you do eventually want two levels for the second slot, invocations, etc. but one is fine. And Rogue 8 can always get War Caster with one level if desired, which is great for tanking with BB anyways.

I agree that Battlemaster pairs very well with Rogue; to that end, 3 levels of Fighter is definitely good. That said, 1 or 2 feels inferior to Cleric, Hexblade or Barbarian if allowed. And Paladin is, if not superior, competitive as well.

[strangebloke]

Sure, Hexblade needs two levels to make Shield easy to use; one for War Caster and one for Shield. Even then, Booming Blade, Hexblade's Curse (including the heal), med/heavy armor, cantrips & spell slot (which can also just grant some long duration buff like AoA to gain +5 HP every SR more or less - this way no need to worry about War Caster) seems like a pretty darn solid set of stuff for one level. Of course you do eventually want two levels for the second slot, invocations, etc. but one is fine. And Rogue 8 can always get War Caster with one level if desired, which is great for tanking with BB anyways.

I agree that Battlemaster pairs very well with Rogue; to that end, 3 levels of Fighter is definitely good. That said, 1 or 2 feels inferior to Cleric, Hexblade or Barbarian if allowed. And Paladin is, if not superior, competitive as well.

OP has said that he intends to take every level from here on out in the new class, and Barbarian isn't allowed. So with this in mind, and knowledge of the module, fighter is imo the best option.

[Frogreaver]

For combat Battlemaster or hex blade are your best bets.

Best all around is rogue.

Cleric deserves honorable mention.

[MrCharlie]

What do you mean by this? Spell slots and magic are just one resource among many, but they are the resource with most possible uses and thus the resource that can do the largest number of different things in the game. Thus, while they can't solve everything, I have yet to see any convincing arguments suggesting that other resources are as valuable and definitely find it hard to believe that not getting resources is as strong as getting more resources (e.g. similar AC-boosts simply don't exist anywhere else in the system).

Sure, Hexblade needs two levels to make Shield easy to use; one for War Caster and one for Shield. Even then, Booming Blade, Hexblade's Curse (including the heal), med/heavy armor, cantrips & spell slot (which can also just grant some long duration buff like AoA to gain +5 HP every SR more or less - this way no need to worry about War Caster) seems like a pretty darn solid set of stuff for one level. Of course you do eventually want two levels for the second slot, invocations, etc. but one is fine. And Rogue 8 can always get War Caster with one level if desired, which is great for tanking with BB anyways.

I agree that Battlemaster pairs very well with Rogue; to that end, 3 levels of Fighter is definitely good. That said, 1 or 2 feels inferior to Cleric, Hexblade or Barbarian if allowed. And Paladin is, if not superior, competitive as well.
Spell slots have the most possible uses, but not the best possible uses for dealing damage or mitigating damage without investment. To put it simply, he isn't going to get the same value out of 6 levels in cleric that he would out of 6 levels in fighter, and the spells he will get will be severely gimped by his wisdom. If you think of battlemaster maneuvers as spells, they are better spells than 3rd level cleric spells, for a rogue.

Hexblade isn't bad, but it mostly isn't bad when you treat it like a fighter and basically treat the spellcasting as a source of temp HP. Once you do that, you're making yourself more survivable-but not hurting the enemy more (in this campaign specifically, cold resistance is common). I favor hurting the enemy at the expense of some temp HP, particularly given how much more battlemaster can let you hurt the enemy. I think hexblade is, in practice, his best other option though, holistically-Cleric loses steam when hexblade starts picking it up, and always being able to tank the first hit (or mitigate it a ton) with no recovery needed is actually highly valuable. Plus, AoA+uncanny dodge is nuts.

[Dork_Forge]

Spell slots have the most possible uses, but not the best possible uses for dealing damage or mitigating damage without investment. To put it simply, he isn't going to get the same value out of 6 levels in cleric that he would out of 6 levels in fighter, and the spells he will get will be severely gimped by his wisdom. If you think of battlemaster maneuvers as spells, they are better spells than 3rd level cleric spells, for a rogue.

Hexblade isn't bad, but it mostly isn't bad when you treat it like a fighter and basically treat the spellcasting as a source of temp HP. Once you do that, you're making yourself more survivable-but not hurting the enemy more (in this campaign specifically, cold resistance is common). I favor hurting the enemy at the expense of some temp HP, particularly given how much more battlemaster can let you hurt the enemy. I think hexblade is, in practice, his best other option though, holistically-Cleric loses steam when hexblade starts picking it up, and always being able to tank the first hit (or mitigate it a ton) with no recovery needed is actually highly valuable. Plus, AoA+uncanny dodge is nuts.

False Life is better for tanking than AoA.

I'm not sure if it was ruled out for some reason, but Artificer would yield a lot even with a low Int. They get the profs they need, spellcasting, access to their own magic items, and the lightning launcher of the Armorer would be pretty nice in general for a Rogue.

I think Fighter is the best choice overall, but I'd go Artificer over Hexblade in a hearbeat.

[MrCharlie]

False Life is better for tanking than AoA.

I'm not sure if it was ruled out for some reason, but Artificer would yield a lot even with a low Int. They get the profs they need, spellcasting, access to their own magic items, and the lightning launcher of the Armorer would be pretty nice in general for a Rogue.

I think Fighter is the best choice overall, but I'd go Artificer over Hexblade in a hearbeat.
Depends on what you mean by tanking. If you mean "Drawing aggro away from allies and not dying", then AoA actively incentivizes enemies to ignore you, so yeah. If you mean "Survive as the only frontline and let the casters figure the rest out, selfish bastards", then I disagree. The actual temp HP difference is trivial.

Artificer is an excellent option though, you are right. Notably, it gives them a great AC if they simply accepts never having advantage or disadvantage from his armor-they can just put on full plate and use infiltrator. Stealth is always straight from now on.

The one negative over warlock is that temp HP spam is harder, as artificers don't get great ways to spam temp HP-and the best one (guardian) gives a weak weapon for a Rogue and no stealth advantage, and scales poorly with a multiclass. I think temp HP is actually very valuable because of uncanny dodge+evasion, which effectively mean that there is a higher threshold to actually hurt the character (and I value that a lot in a campaign with super dangerous long rests, like Avernus).

[Dork_Forge]

Depends on what you mean by tanking. If you mean "Drawing aggro away from allies and not dying", then AoA actively incentivizes enemies to ignore you, so yeah. If you mean "Survive as the only frontline and let the casters figure the rest out, selfish bastards", then I disagree. The actual temp HP difference is trivial.

I meant both that it was more temp hp, and that since the context of the game is highly prevalent cold resistance, the damage aspect of AoA is largely irrelevant. For levels 8 and 9 you're talking 2 cold damage, which is nothing but an annoyance. And since Uncanny Dodge is on the table, the extra hp can be nice.


Artificer is an excellent option though, you are right. Notably, it gives them a great AC if they simply accepts never having advantage or disadvantage from his armor-they can just put on full plate and use infiltrator. Stealth is always straight from now on.

The higher AC is nice and if the OP has Expertise in Stealth then forgoing advantage could be worth it (and they can carry around other armor for foreseeable scouts).


The one negative over warlock is that temp HP spam is harder, as artificers don't get great ways to spam temp HP-and the best one (guardian) gives a weak weapon for a Rogue and no stealth advantage, and scales poorly with a multiclass. I think temp HP is actually very valuable because of uncanny dodge+evasion, which effectively mean that there is a higher threshold to actually hurt the character (and I value that a lot in a campaign with super dangerous long rests, like Avernus).


It depends what you mean about temp hp, so far I think you've only mentioned AoA which is awful for temp hp spam. You'll only ever get two castings of it a short rest and they take an action. That gets a lot better if you take the Fiendish Vigor invocation at 2nd level however.

If looking for temp hp on an Artificer then they can be very good at it, the Artillerist provides a lot, and any Artificer can prepare False Life.

At Rogue 7/Art 1 OP can rock medium armor and shield, at Art 2 they can make their armor magical, and at 3 they can choose Guardian (the ability to make your own +1 weapon is nice, you don't have to use the Thunder Gauntlets).

At the level Armorer comes online they'd get 4 uses of it per long rest, and they can use False life multiple times a day from level 1, with Aid coming online at Art 5.

Artificer also gives the option to heal yourself, which is nice.

Personally I'd go Fighter, and if going Artificer I'd go with Infilitrator 90% of the time, switching to Guardian when particularly meat wall-y moments are coming up.

[SociopathFriend]

Depends on what you mean by tanking. If you mean "Drawing aggro away from allies and not dying", then AoA actively incentivizes enemies to ignore you, so yeah. If you mean "Survive as the only frontline and let the casters figure the rest out, selfish bastards", then I disagree. The actual temp HP difference is trivial.


For the record "casters are selfish bastards that can figure it out" is pretty hardcore where we've been heading. At this point I have actively been the only one to bring rations and water into Avernus and am just as actively trying to bang their caster heads together to try and figure out ways to get water for everyone.

And yes- Druids would be so very useful if they showed up to sessions. Alas- Warlocks and Wild Magic Sorcerers are not known for their spell flexibility.

Either our little hell car is gonna get us somewhere important within a day or two or this is going to be a one-man mission in short order.

[Arkhios]

What do you mean by this? Spell slots and magic are just one resource among many

My point is exactly what you said. Spell slots and magic are just one resource among many. All of which carry potentially equal value, depending on who you're asking from.

You may think, or feel, or read from a graph, that they are more valuable, and that's fine. That's your point of view, or rather, opinion. But the point is, not everyone values the same things.

For me, personally, if you're already at 7th or 8th level but you don't have any previous spellcasting progression, and you're planning or pondering on whether to take your very first levels in a class that grants you spell slots, the value is rather low at that point. Spellcasting is strong if you start with it and stick to it. But if you only dip to it, or branch out later, the benefits aren't immediately all that great. You have to work it from ground up, several levels behind others. And then there's the fact that yes, while you may have spell slots now, those can be used only within the limits of the class or classes that gave them to you.

For example, the way you said it, almost seems as if you're trying to say, that your spell slots would be usable by others in your group, when all you can do with them is to cast your own spells, or use your own class features (if any) to expend them otherwise. Others can't tap into your resources. In other words, you can't give your spell slots to someone else to cast their spells. So, really, spell slots gained are still a resource limited by what you can do with them. If you've just taken the first level in a class granting you spell slots, it really isn't all that much you can do with them.

Let me put this another way:

At level 8, as a rogue 7/cleric 1 (for example):
You have access to your 1st level cleric spells, and you have two (2) first level spell slots until you finish a long rest. That's all.

Another player, let's assume one of them is an 8th level sorcerer:
They have access to their 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level spells, AND they have four (4) 1st level spell slots, three (3) 2nd level spell slots, three (3) 3rd level spell slots, and two (2) 4th level spell slots.

That you can now cast two spells before you dry out isn't very impressive, when the sorcerer can cast five times as many spells, even before they use sorcery points to possibly cast even more.
I wouldn't sing high praise to taking first few levels of a spellcasting class at 8th level and beyond, when your friends are oh so much better at doing it already, and keep getting better.


In my honest opinion, as a 7th level rogue (other than arcane trickster), taking levels in another "mundane" class blends into rogue levels more smoothly than a spellcasting class that introduces a whole new expendable resource and mechanic to your existing class abilities. I'm not saying it wouldn't work. Only that, to me, it seems it might be a bit clumsy change in how the character "plays".

[Frogreaver]

The character has crap concentration saves. Relying on concentration for anything is going to be bad unless you invest in warcaster.

Let's look at your character about 4 levels in the future to get an idea of what some good possibilities are.

1. Rogue 7 / Fighter 4. Defensive Style, 1d10+4 hp recovery per short rest, +36 hp, Action Surge (can be used to dodge), battlemaster maneuvers grant much more damage, ASI for inspiring leader +13 temp hp per short rest.

Key Metrics (assuming 2 short rests)
20 AC
+36 hp
+28.5 self healing
+39 self temp hp
3 dodge actions
Maneuvers add much extra damage

2. Rogue 8/Hexblade 3. Take Hexblade first for Shields and Medium Armor along with booming blade. Take rogue 8 next for warcaster - allowing you to use shield spell with your slots. Take warlock again for fiendish vigor and more spell slots for shield spell. Next level of warlock opens up mirror image and devil's sight + darkness combo.

Key Metrics (assuming 6 encounters and 2 short rests)
19 AC
+32 hp
+48 self temp hp
6 uses of shield/mirror image/darkness
Booming blade for some extra damage

3. Rogue 11. Moderately Armored gains shields. +2d6 more sneak attack damage. Can also take inspiring leader with level 10 ASI.

Key Metrics
19 AC
+32 hp
+39 self temp tp
+2d6 sneak attack
Reliable Talent is amazing

4. Rogue 7/ Twilight Cleric 4. Medium Armor and Shields. Ability to use channel divinity to generate alot of temp hp. Can use slots for healing words or sanctuary in battle. Aid and prayer of healing can be used out of battle. ASI can be used for resilient Con.

Key Metrics (assumes 2 short rests, 4 rounds of combat when using channel divinity for temp hp generation).
19 AC
+43 hp
+84 temp hp
+5 self hp max from aid
4 slots for healing word/sanctuary
2 slots for prayer of healing
*No notable offensive additions at this level.

For me, all these combos seem perfectly viable for making a tankier rogue. My personal favorite is the battlemaster as it adds the most instant value and provides one of the largest increases in offensive capabilities. Hexblade isn't far behind. Twilight Cleric arguably has the best defensive scaling if you go significantly past level 11.

[OldTrees1]

1. Rogue 7 / Fighter 4. Defensive Style, 1d10+4 hp recovery per short rest, +36 hp, Action Surge (can be used to dodge), battlemaster maneuvers grant much more damage, ASI for inspiring leader +13 temp hp per short rest.

Key Metrics (assuming 2 short rests)
+39X ally temp hp

2. Rogue 8/Hexblade 3. Take Hexblade first for Shields and Medium Armor along with booming blade. Take rogue 8 next for warcaster - allowing you to use shield spell with your slots. Take warlock again for fiendish vigor and more spell slots for shield spell. Next level of warlock opens up mirror image and devil's sight + darkness combo.

Key Metrics (assuming 6 encounters and 2 short rests)
+0 ally temp hp

3. Rogue 11. Moderately Armored gains shields. +2d6 more sneak attack damage. Can also take inspiring leader with level 10 ASI.

Key Metrics
+39X ally temp tp

4. Rogue 7/ Twilight Cleric 4. Medium Armor and Shields. Ability to use channel divinity to generate alot of temp hp. Can use slots for healing words or sanctuary in battle. Aid and prayer of healing can be used out of battle. ASI can be used for resilient Con.

Key Metrics (assumes 2 short rests, 4 rounds of combat when using channel divinity for temp hp generation).
+84X ally temp hp
+10 ally hp max from aid

For me, all these combos seem perfectly viable for making a tankier rogue. My personal favorite is the battlemaster as it adds the most instant value and provides one of the largest increases in offensive capabilities. Hexblade isn't far behind. Twilight Cleric arguably has the best defensive scaling if you go significantly past level 11.

I think it is useful to also track the boost to ally hp. With a single frontline character, you are unlikely to survive holding the entire line, so you want the backline to absorb some of the hits.

All 4 of these seem great options. Battlemaster and Hexblade give a bonus quickly. Rogue and Twilight Cleric have a delay but reward you for the delay (Reliable Talent is amazing out of combat, and Twilight Cleric has the most hp buffer). Given the context I would favor Hexblade for thematic reasons. Followed by Twlight Cleric, Battlemaster, and Rogue in that order for various reasons. However these are all great options and nicely broken down.

[SociopathFriend]

I think after a good deal of thought- I'm going to multiclass into Fighter. WHAT Fighter I dunno but that's a decision that's several Levels away.
The suggestions have been very helpful and, dare I say it, thought-provoking- but a few things push me to Fighter:

Firstly, the fact that we're in Avernus. I do not have an Arcane Focus or its Holy counterpart, I do not have a component pouch or anything similar. While this does not rule out ALL spellcasting it is still something I'm unable to do anything about. You might be able to craft this sort of thing but unless we find a trove of water- we literally do not have hours to spare doing anything.

Secondly, the DM we have is not at all above dishing out spells like Silence if he wants to really mess with casters. Making an entire party of casters would be (most likely) openly daring him to do it again. While a Rogue can work well enough in silence- Warlocks do not (Eldritch Blast has Verbal) and from what I know of the Sorcerer's spell list- he has plenty of Verbals himself. I can work around such things- I do not have the most faith in my allies doing so.

[strangebloke]

I think after a good deal of thought- I'm going to multiclass into Fighter. WHAT Fighter I dunno but that's a decision that's several Levels away.
The suggestions have been very helpful and, dare I say it, thought-provoking- but a few things push me to Fighter:

Firstly, the fact that we're in Avernus. I do not have an Arcane Focus or its Holy counterpart, I do not have a component pouch or anything similar. While this does not rule out ALL spellcasting it is still something I'm unable to do anything about. You might be able to craft this sort of thing but unless we find a trove of water- we literally do not have hours to spare doing anything.

Secondly, the DM we have is not at all above dishing out spells like Silence if he wants to really mess with casters. Making an entire party of casters would be (most likely) openly daring him to do it again. While a Rogue can work well enough in silence- Warlocks do not (Eldritch Blast has Verbal) and from what I know of the Sorcerer's spell list- he has plenty of Verbals himself. I can work around such things- I do not have the most faith in my allies doing so.

Cool! There are a lot of good fighter subclasses when you get there, but there's a reason people have been bringing up the battlemaster a lot. The maneuvers brace and riposte grant you reaction attacks when you otherwise wouldn't be able to get them. And as a rogue, when you get a reaction attack you can get sneak attack. The text of sneak attack says "once per turn" of course, rather than "once on your turn."

Getting two Sneak attacks in a round is absurdly strong.

You can do this with action surge or haste as well if you want to cheese. First action is an attack, second action is a readied attack for next turn.

[Eldariel]

I think after a good deal of thought- I'm going to multiclass into Fighter. WHAT Fighter I dunno but that's a decision that's several Levels away.
The suggestions have been very helpful and, dare I say it, thought-provoking- but a few things push me to Fighter:

Firstly, the fact that we're in Avernus. I do not have an Arcane Focus or its Holy counterpart, I do not have a component pouch or anything similar. While this does not rule out ALL spellcasting it is still something I'm unable to do anything about. You might be able to craft this sort of thing but unless we find a trove of water- we literally do not have hours to spare doing anything.

Secondly, the DM we have is not at all above dishing out spells like Silence if he wants to really mess with casters. Making an entire party of casters would be (most likely) openly daring him to do it again. While a Rogue can work well enough in silence- Warlocks do not (Eldritch Blast has Verbal) and from what I know of the Sorcerer's spell list- he has plenty of Verbals himself. I can work around such things- I do not have the most faith in my allies doing so.

One thing I would like to mention re@Avernus is that source of magic weapon (like Forge Cleric or some caster with the spell) would be fairly valuable as well, so as to ensure you don't have to deal with damage reduction vs. most thing. Even Warlock multiclass would just see you use melee while precasting buffs so stuff like Silence wouldn't really matter to you. But of course, it's all up to you indeed: I hope you have fun and I do recommend Battlemaster since it combines ridiculously well with Rogue to get off-turn attacks.

[SociopathFriend]

Cool! There are a lot of good fighter subclasses when you get there, but there's a reason people have been bringing up the battlemaster a lot. The maneuvers brace and riposte grant you reaction attacks when you otherwise wouldn't be able to get them. And as a rogue, when you get a reaction attack you can get sneak attack. The text of sneak attack says "once per turn" of course, rather than "once on your turn."

Getting two Sneak attacks in a round is absurdly strong.

You can do this with action surge or haste as well if you want to cheese. First action is an attack, second action is a readied attack for next turn.

I think the DM would have an aneurism given he was relatively displeased when I got two Sneak Attacks off in one round already. Granted this might be because he loves Rogues and he never did that and so is enjoying a healthy dose of jelly beans.



One thing I would like to mention re@Avernus is that source of magic weapon (like Forge Cleric or some caster with the spell) would be fairly valuable as well, so as to ensure you don't have to deal with damage reduction vs. most thing. Even Warlock multiclass would just see you use melee while precasting buffs so stuff like Silence wouldn't really matter to you. But of course, it's all up to you indeed: I hope you have fun and I do recommend Battlemaster since it combines ridiculously well with Rogue to get off-turn attacks.

I prepped like a good boy- I've got Silvered arrows and Silvered melee weapons. Also now that I'm a Fighter in addition to a Rogue- literally any magical weapon we come across is fair game for me to use unlike before where I was limited to Simple ones. First word of complaint about that from the casters and I swear I will turn the war machine around.

[MaverickOrig]

My tankiest character was a mastermind rogue.

Do what EVERY character can do, but better.

DODGE

You use your action to dodge, your bonus to provide mastermind help to give advantage to your party's best damage dealer and then use your reaction to get sneak attacks in (with feats like sentinel)

Grab fighter, and head for scout fighter if UA content allowed.

Superiority dice used for scout maneuver:

If you are hit by an attack while wearing light or medium armor, you can expend one superiority
die as a reaction, adding the number rolled to
your AC. If the attack still hits, you take half
damage from it.

Throw on a shield and breastplate to have AC and stealth. Enjoy

If UA is not allowed, try cleric and start combats with bless... And excellent tanking spell.

[strangebloke]

I think the DM would have an aneurism given he was relatively displeased when I got two Sneak Attacks off in one round already. Granted this might be because he loves Rogues and he never did that and so is enjoying a healthy dose of jelly beans.



Lol, that's a common reaction to realizing how good rogues are at exploiting OAs.

Ultimately only you can gauge the social repercussions