Whacky Combat Shenanigans. Pls Halp.

[Khazreil]

I have some....creative players. they have an idea that logically should work, but I'm having trouble quantifying it in numbers. The first time they did it was against an enemy that was nearly dead so I just fudged something together, but they liked it so much they will do it again. One player, who has plenty of strength to do this, picked up another, who was wearing spiked armor, while they were unconcious(from booze, not damage) and swung their spiky friend as though he were a weapon. I used improvised weapon rules for chance to hit, but I fudged the damage, and have no idea how to calculate this properly.

Please help, Playground geniuses!

[RNightstalker]

First off, unless the PC has an exotic weapon proficiency: passed out drunk party members, they've got a -4 to hit off the top. Second consideration is the size and weight of the character being swung around: most weapons sized for medium characters max out around 15 pounds. How much does the drunk human flail weigh, with all combat gear and loot? (also, I imagine there would be spillage from quivers, pouches, and backpacks as well). Third, most humans use weapons because our bodies aren't built for that kind of use: we're squishy meatbags, and the character being swung around is just as likely to take damage as he is to be a vessel for delivering damage.

[lolcat]

I'd agree with the previous poster. Unless the... weapon has a specific method of preventing damage, and the object they are swung at has similar hardness/robustness (i.e. both wearing similar armor, being swung at a wooden door etc.) the damage dealt should be equal to damage received. Even more so, if an unarmored party member is swung at the Oger in his spiked fullplate....

For calculating the damage, while there are no rules for it i'd take a look at the environmental rules for how much damage falling or heavy objects deal.

[Telonius]

Yeah, it's an improvised weapon. (I suppose you could make an argument about that if the ally were a Monk, but he's in full plate). The closest thing to it would probably be a Heavy Spiked Shield designed for a Large creature. Inappropriately sized, so -6 total to attack, 1d8 damage.

Now, if you're throwing the person at somebody, the existing way to do that would be either the Fling Ally feat (if you just want him to land), or the Comet Throw Maneuver from Tome of Battle (where you'll deal damage both to the person you're throwing as well as the target). Or, you could treat him as an improvised boulder, if you have the Rock Hurling feat (or the Rock Throwing racial ability for Giants).

We also get this from the Rock Hurling feat:


As an improvised weapon, a 40- to 50-pound rock deals 2d6 points of damage with a range increment of 5 feet, and such a rock can be thrown only as a full-round action. A character without the Rock Hurling feat is considered to be nonproficient, taking a -4 penalty on the attack roll.

[AvatarVecna]

The back of Complete Warrior has rules for improvised weapon damage and handedness. Unfortunately neither is very intuitive.

[Khazreil]

Okay. gonna clarify, I did use a -6 to hit for oversized and improvised, and yes, both creatures took damage(although i did apply the "weapon"'s DR). The question was How MUCH damage to assign. I just went with an arbitrary number at the time, but 1d8 (as suggested above) seems horribly underpowered, considering its essentially a 300lb (gear included) spiked greatmace. The player swinging the "weapon" has 25 STR so no worries on ability to pick up and swing, from a logical standpoint.

[Bronk]

Okay. gonna clarify, I did use a -6 to hit for oversized and improvised, and yes, both creatures took damage(although i did apply the "weapon"'s DR). The question was How MUCH damage to assign. I just went with an arbitrary number at the time, but 1d8 (as suggested above) seems horribly underpowered, considering its essentially a 300lb (gear included) spiked greatmace. The player swinging the "weapon" has 25 STR so no worries on ability to pick up and swing, from a logical standpoint.

It sounds like they're having fun, so I'd start by letting them do the same thing over again with the same penalties and so on... but then have them go through some kind of in game 'special training' montage (like that one time in Evangelion), and maybe make the one being swung around get special boots. At that point, I'd remove all the penalties and treat the 'weapon' as a greatclub, so a 1d0 base damage, but to make it worthwhile, I'd double it, so 1d10 plus 1.5X (for a two handed weapon) strength bonus per person. Plus an additional bonus for all those spikes on the armor. Also, with the special training, the person being swung doesn't take damage anymore, but does have to make fort saves or be stunned for a round, and there'd be an off chance of being disarmed or even sundered.

I'd let the PC get rid of the stunning if the wielder gets some kind of bonus related to improvised weapons, or if the PC being swung gets some form of improved unarmed strike.

Then, whenever they think up something new, I'd let them... like if the person being swung wants to also punch the enemy at the same time for extra damage to the same attack? Might as well! Non casters need all the help they can get, and these people are just ruining their action economy otherwise.

[Jay R]

Okay. gonna clarify, I did use a -6 to hit for oversized and improvised, and yes, both creatures took damage(although i did apply the "weapon"'s DR). The question was How MUCH damage to assign. I just went with an arbitrary number at the time, but 1d8 (as suggested above) seems horribly underpowered, considering its essentially a 300lb (gear included) spiked greatmace. The player swinging the "weapon" has 25 STR so no worries on ability to pick up and swing, from a logical standpoint.

It is not a spiked greatmace. A greatmace is solid and unbending. The body is a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.

Also, the spikes on a mace are put in the right place to hit the target when it is being swung. The spikes on a person are put to be usable by the person wearing them, not the person swinging that person. Since somebody wearing spikes is presumably using them correctly, any other use would be less effective.

Weapons are carefully designed to maximize damage when wielded correctly.. The human body is not.

It's a grossly inferior weapon, as proven by the fact that nobody in either real history or fantasy history has gone into battle wielding a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.

It would do about as much damage as a defensive lineman in American football does to a quarterback, modified upward a little for the spikes, and downward a lot for the fact that the weapon/lineman is swinging free, not using its own muscles to direct the attack.

Finally, I suspect that the unconscious person would take [I]more damage from it than the target. It just doesn't sound like really good therapy for an unconscious and wounded person.

[Khazreil]

It is not a spiked greatmace. A greatmace is solid and unbending. The body is a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.

Also, the spikes on a mace are put in the right place to hit the target when it is being swung. The spikes on a person are put to be usable by the person wearing them, not the person swinging that person. Since somebody wearing spikes is presumably using them correctly, any other use would be less effective.

Weapons are carefully designed to maximize damage when wielded correctly.. The human body is not.

It's a grossly inferior weapon, as proven by the fact that nobody in either real history or fantasy history has gone into battle wielding a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.

It would do about as much damage as a defensive lineman in American football does to a quarterback, modified upward a little for the spikes, and downward a lot for the fact that the weapon/lineman is swinging free, not using its own muscles to direct the attack.

Finally, I suspect that the unconscious person would take [I]more damage from it than the target. It just doesn't sound like really good therapy for an unconscious and wounded person.

This isnt a battlefield tactic. its a barfight tactic. Also, while nobody has ever gone into battle with what you describe, i also very much doubt anyone has ever really had 25 STR to work with. also, i have seen a person get hit by another person....they stayed hit...it was bad for both of them pretty equally. Highschool was wild sometimes.
edit: as mentioned, the "weapon" was drunk, not wounded

[Darg]

Strength has no bearing on the ability to use an oversized weapon effectively. I would rule that a person is an improvised colossal weapon considering the weight. Meaning a -12 to hit if the attacker is medium sized swinging a medium creature. A colossal orc double axe weighs 240 lbs.

[AvatarVecna]

Right. Okay. Here's the actual rules on improvised weapons:


As detailed in the Player’s Handbook, objects not crafted to be used as weapons may nonetheless find use in combat. This is most true in the stereotypical tavern brawl, but any time a character can’t or doesn’t want to use a weapon, he needs to know how effective the closest object is in a fight.

Any creature using an improvised weapon—from a broken bottle to a barstool—in a fi ght is considered to be nonproficient with it and thus takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with it. An improvised weapon scores a threat (a possible critical hit) on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

What about fighting with ladders, wagon wheels, or coils of rope? In the hands of a determined (or desperate) individual, these oddly shaped objects offer a wide variety of options in combat. Of course, you must still deal with the –4 penalty on attack rolls made with such a weapon, but sometimes you have to make use of what’s available!

Bull Rush: If you perform a bull rush while carrying a big, sturdy object (such as a bench or table), you add a +2 bonus on your Strength check to push back the defender.

Defense: Objects with lots of surface area (such as tables) grant you a +2 shield bonus to Armor Class (or a +4 shield bonus to AC if you use the total defense action), but require two hands to use.

Disarm: Any object with a lot of protrusions (such as a chair or a broken wagon wheel) or that can easily ensnare objects (such as a cloak or a ladder) grants the wielder a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an enemy (including the roll to avoid being disarmed if such an attempt fails).

Entangle: Any sheetlike flexible object (such as a carpet or tapestry) can entangle an opponent with a successful ranged touch attack. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity, can move at only half speed, cannot run or charge, and may have difficulty casting spells (see the Concentration skill description, page 69 of the Player's Handbook). Escaping from such an object requires a standard action and a DC 10 Escape Artist check. These objects are treated as two-handed weapons.

Reach: Long objects (such as ladders) have reach, allowing a Small or Medium character to strike at opponents up to 10 feet away (but not at adjacent foes). These objects are treated as two-handed weapons.

Trip: An object with protrusions at the end (such as a hat rack or a barstool) or that can wrap around a leg (such as a chain) can be used to make trip attempts. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the improvised weapon to avoid being tripped.

IMPROVISED WEAPON DAMAGE

Most improvised weapons deal betwen 1d3 and 1d6 points of damage (usually bludgeoning, but possibility piercing or slashing). For more guidance on how much damage an improvised weapon deals, see Table 4-7: Improvised Weapon Damage. For every 200 pounds of an object's weight beyond 400 pounds, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage if used as an improvised weapon.

If an object weighs up to 2 pounds, a Medium character can treat it as a light weapon. Objects weighing between 2 and 10 pounds are one-handed weapons for Medium characters, and objects weighing 11 to 50 pounds are two-handed weapons. Halve these numbers for every size category below Medium, and double them for every size category above Medium.



Object Weight
Damage1
Examples


Less than 2 lbs2
1d3
Mug, Torch


2 lbs - 5 lbs
1d4
Lantern, Manacles


6 lbs - 10 lbs
1d6
Chair, Shovel


11 lbs - 25 lbs
1d8
Ladder, Small Table


25 lbs - 50 lbs
2d6
Barrel (empty)


51 lbs - 100 lbs
3d6
Chest (full), Big Table


101 lbs - 200 lbs
4d6
Cart


201 lbs - 400 lbs
5d6
Wagon



1: A sharp object deals damage as an object f twice its weight. For instance, a broken bottle deals 1d4 points of damage, not 1d3. Conversely, a soft or malleable object, such as a gourd, deals damage as an object of half its weight, and the damage is nonlethal.

2: If an item has no weight worth noting, it doesn't deal any damage when used as a weapon.

A 240 lbs orc could be wielded as a two-handed weapon by a gargantuan or colossal creature. If we were to agree that a Medium PC can wield objects weighing more than 50 lbs by taking a -2 per size up they'd have to be to wield it normally (and we ignore the usual rule about how a Large weapon isn't just a -2 to-hit, it's also one step harder to wield), then a 240 pound orc would be equivalent to wielding a Gargantuan two-handed weapon, and thus the PC should be taking -10 to hit in total. This weapon will deal 4d6 if the orc is too pudgy, 5d6 if he's got rockhard muscles and/or solid armor, or 6d6 if he is wearing spike-covered armor.

EDIT: If we were to allow this, then the most dangerous object a Medium character could wield would be an 800 lb spiky object, which would require a -12 to-hit and would deal 11d6 base damage.

[RNightstalker]

It sounds like they're having fun,

^^Run with that...


The body is a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.

It's a grossly inferior weapon, as proven by the fact that nobody in either real history or fantasy history has gone into battle wielding a spiked sack of meat with some connected bones inside.


I still prefer HK-47's term of meatbag. And in The Avengers franchise Hulk did use Loki and Thor as spiked meatbags:biggrin:

[Khazreil]

Right. Okay. Here's the actual rules on improvised weapons:



A 240 lbs orc could be wielded as a two-handed weapon by a gargantuan or colossal creature. If we were to agree that a Medium PC can wield objects weighing more than 50 lbs by taking a -2 per size up they'd have to be to wield it normally (and we ignore the usual rule about how a Large weapon isn't just a -2 to-hit, it's also one step harder to wield), then a 240 pound orc would be equivalent to wielding a Gargantuan two-handed weapon, and thus the PC should be taking -10 to hit in total. This weapon will deal 4d6 if the orc is too pudgy, 5d6 if he's got rockhard muscles and/or solid armor, or 6d6 if he is wearing spike-covered armor.

EDIT: If we were to allow this, then the most dangerous object a Medium character could wield would be an 800 lb spiky object, which would require a -12 to-hit and would deal 11d6 base damage.

This is exactly what I needed and could not find. TYSM.