Messing with Players' Heads

[ReproMan]

Hello all,

I'm just writing to get some quick thoughts and input on what everyone here thinks about screwing around with Players' heads and expectations. The dos and don'ts, the ins and outs, good and bad examples, when it crosses the line, when it ceases to be fun, etc.

I'm asking for a campaign actually happening on this board, actually (To all my players: Fiery death will result if you try and get any answers out of me.), which, if you’re interested, can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62667). It’s not terribly long, and I’m just getting into the groove, wondering how many buttons I can push to make things stay interesting…

[tyckspoon]

Generally speaking, the occasional mindscrew is perfectly ok and should probably be done from time to time on principle; you don't want your players to get too stuck in any one groove or mode of thought. You don't want to take it so far that the entire campaign is based on a series of these events, however. That will tend to destroy players' sense of reality and at the worst extremes leave them playing as if they were trying to survive Call of Cthulu (DM: "You hear about.."
Player: "No. I drop out of school, move to Hawaii, and become a beach musician.")
A campaign based on messing with the players' heads can be fun, but the players need to know it's going to happen so they can adjust their expectations accordingly. It's not a change you can easily make in the middle of an ongoing campaign.

[Egill]

Play Nobilis?

[BizzaroStormy]

Your party exits a town and is walking through a small canyon.

DM to random player: Make a reflex save.

Player: what? why?

DM: Just do it.

*rolls*

Player: Ok, I got a total of 13

DM: You fail, a boulder fell on you. 12d8 damage.

Player: WTF?!? Now im dead!

DM: *hands him a new character sheet*

If that doesnt screw with your players heads, nothing will. Its also a great way to get rid of powergamers.

[LongVin]

Just randomly roll dice and make "hmm" sounds.

Ask for random rolls "hey, can you roll spot real quick?' if get a phenemenol roll point out something minor but interesting if they get an average or bad roll and they ask what they see just go "oh, nothing. It isn't important." see how paranoid they get. And if they get a horrible role make them think they see something horrible.

[Irreverent Fool]

About halfway through the dungeon, ask everyone what their will saves are and proceed to roll dice behind the screen after everything they do, checking back to confirm their saves. After awhile, select a player at random and take him out of the room. Explain to him that you weren't rolling for any particular reason, but are going to stop now. Tell him not to share this information with the other players and continue play as normal.

[Lord Tataraus]

About halfway through the dungeon, ask everyone what their will saves are and proceed to roll dice behind the screen after everything they do, checking back to confirm their saves. After awhile, select a player at random and take him out of the room. Explain to him that you weren't rolling for any particular reason, but are going to stop now. Tell him not to share this information with the other players and continue play as normal.

I've got to do that!!! Pirate, since your reading this thread, it's going to be you...
Nobody - if you read this, remove it from your memory, I have faith in your forgetfulness...

[VerdugoExplode]

I just thought of a situation which would probably ruin players for a long time afterwards.

Have them receiving orders from a mysterious group to arrest people for numerous murders committed. At the end of it all have them found out they were hired by a group of kobolds to get rid of adventurers who had been habitually attacking them. Well, it sounded good in my head, I feel as though it sounds slightly more convoluted here.

Just a thought.

[dyslexicfaser]

That is pretty classic - it genuinely messes with players when you explain how all their 'good deeds' up until this point was actually the main villain using you to eliminate his competition and shore up his defenses.

[Jack Zander]

A dungeon full of enchantments and illusions, but with no true danger at all.

-Ghost sounds of terrible terrible things in the hallways.
-A magic mouth riddle door with an impossible riddle. If you answer incorrectly, the door locks forever and the walls close in (as far as the PCs can tell). However, the door is not locked to begin with.
-A doorway where as soon as the first PC enters, an illusionary block of stone smashes the PC to bits then resets itself while smearing illusionary blood all over the floor. The PC is actually teleported into the next room.
-Illusions of pit traps where it is save to walk.
-Illusions of incorporeal creatures.
-Fear enchantments that cause players to flee in terror from nothing, while the other party members think there actually is something in the next room.

etc.

[VerdugoExplode]

Well, I mean the kobolds could actually be good, or at least neutral. Mining and trading with a nearby community until a group of good aligned adventurers decide to attack them because, well, they're kobolds. It would definitely add an unnecessary degree of moral complexity to the situation.

[Inyssius Tor]

I've been thinking about running a dungeon, doing this (http://www.feartheboot.com/comic/default.aspx?c=39) all the time. Exactly how true the "I wasn't supposed to read that" part is may vary.

EDIT: Or, perhaps, the descriptions could be perfectly accurate--up to a point.

[Xefas]

What do players love the most? Experience...but barring that: treasure.

Screw with their treasure, and it's bound to get to them.

I once had my players in a dungeon, and they entered a large room with a pedestal in the middle. Upon the pedestal was an obscenely large ruby. On all the walls were differently shaped mirrors. Some of the mirrors were set deeper into the walls than other, and every 3rd mirror did not reflect the ruby, but reflected everything else normally.

The players opted to sit around for about 20 minutes bickering, and then leave without touching anything.

The kicker being that the room was perfectly normal in every way, and they could have just taken the ruby. All the other objects just screw with them, and make them think its a trap.

[Lord Tataraus]

What do players love the most? Experience...but barring that: treasure.

Screw with their treasure, and it's bound to get to them.

I once had my players in a dungeon, and they entered a large room with a pedestal in the middle. Upon the pedestal was an obscenely large ruby. On all the walls were differently shaped mirrors. Some of the mirrors were set deeper into the walls than other, and every 3rd mirror did not reflect the ruby, but reflected everything else normally.

The players opted to sit around for about 20 minutes bickering, and then leave without touching anything.

The kicker being that the room was perfectly normal in every way, and they could have just taken the ruby. All the other objects just screw with them, and make them think its a trap.

You have no idea how much I've done that :smallbiggrin:
My players are always asking when they get big loot (I always make them poor for the longest time before they get extremely rich in one haul) though a lot of the time I like to put things like that in or more commonly the "big loot in plain site" that they never find just for my amusement as they pass it by! :smalltongue:

[mabriss lethe]

I've had a campaign in mind for a while. It's still sort of vague, but here's how it all starts. I'm aiming it to begin as a mid-level campaign, but that might change after it all gets fleshed out.

Each character gets a quick solo session without the other players present. In that session, they're doing whatever it is that would normally motivate the character. Whatever they want to do... doesn't matter. They're about 10 minutes away from a raiding party of infernals(most likely demons, but maybe devils). The intro sessions all end the same, The players gasp out their dying breath on the talons of some monstrosity only to discover that their killer is a "harvester." Their souls are captured and the raiding party descends back into their infernal realm with their prizes.
I got long winded, the rest is behind a spoiler if you're interested.

The second session is the first full one with all the players together. They're prisoner souls bound back to the abyss/hells on a grotesque caravan. The PCs share are all bound to the same chain, suffer abuses, indignities, etc at the hands of their captors. If they try, they can find an exploitable weakness in the chain but won't have a chance to use it just at that moment. Later on, the caravan is ambushed by a rival infernal faction. The PCs can then make good on their escape, They stumble upon the remains of several dead infernals of some generic sort, all bear arms and armor (an excuse to rearm the PCs and give them a chance to work out some frustration on their would be slavers.) Whether they try to escape completely or attempt an assault on the guards doesn't matter. The gateway back to the mortal realm vanished behind them and they'd be nothing more than fleeting phantoms if they found a way to return. In the end, they're recaptured by the rival faction (miltant servants of a Devil prince.) The PCs watch as other escapees are returned to their chains. Just before they're reshackled, the captain of the ambushers intercedes. "Leave them" he'll say "These mortals may just be what the Master is looking for."

Third session: the players are escorted to meet their savior (the devil price)
He has a proposition for them. Since they were "poached" in a most unorthodox manner, there is a way to return them physically to the mortal realm, (without the normal EXP penalty.) However the price for the Prince's intercession is pretty steep. The PCs have to become his mortal agents. Sounds pretty bad, right? The paladin will be squirming a little by now, no doubt. Turns out that demons from the Abyss are planning a major thrust into the mortal realm. He wants the players to put a stop to it. If a canny player points out that his orders only affect demons, but not devils, he'll calmly reply that his hunters may kill any infernal in the mortal realm, regardless of affiliation. None of them are his after all. He's currently out of favor in Hell. He plans on waiting out the current crisis in hell, jockeying for a higher throne. At the moment he doesn't care about the mortal realm. He doesn't want the world to fall until He's the one in charge of the armies of Hell and is certain to win. (is planning a tentative invasion somewhere a few millennia from now at the earliest.)

The PCs get to return to the mortal realm and can basically get back to living their lives once they discharge the first of their duties. To find the demons' ally in the region that is granting them access to the mortal realm to poach souls.

Full of moral ambiguity and the PCs will never really know when their new boss just might turn on them.

[Lord Tataraus]

Wow, mabriss lethe, that sounds like an awesome campaign. That would be really cool if they all took levels in Montebank for the flavor of it all....hm...a campaign where all the player's are Montebanks...

[dyslexicfaser]

Wow, mabriss lethe, that sounds like an awesome campaign. That would be really cool if they all took levels in Montebank for the flavor of it all....hm...a campaign where all the player's are Montebanks...

Never heard of em.

Enlighten us, Lord T?

[Lord Tataraus]

Never heard of em.

Enlighten us, Lord T?

Dragon Compendium page 42 (man I love that book :smallbiggrin: ) originally from DR65
Its a base class that the whole flavor of it is you have entered a pact with a Demon, Devil, or other force of evil to gain powers in exchange of working for them. Get get some cool bonus damage (not precision, but progresses slowly and gets triggered about as easily as sneak attack) they also get a stare ability that cuases a bunch of penalties, but they don't know what happened (usuable at will) as well as movement abilities like dimension door by going through hell. Death is more interesting because you need to make a Bluff or Diplomacy check to convince your patron to let you back into the material plane. And the capstone ability: gain half-fiend template, shift alignment to evil (if not already) and become an NPC as the thrall of your patron (of course their are always ways to get out of that part of the pact). Overall its an amazing class both flavor-wise and crunch-wise and has tons of built in plot hooks, especially if you're tricked into entering the class.

[bosssmiley]

It's too easy.

Let me repeat that: it's too easy.

Seriously, you as the GM, are the sole source of information on what is happening that the players have. You are their entire sensorium when it comes to the game world. If you become unreliable the characters are essentially living an unfathomable, meaningless hallucination.

As the GM you can quite easily screw players (and their characters) over at any time. It can be by a simple omission, an incorrect emphasis, describing details in the wrong order, mis-speaking, etc. etc. If your descriptions cannot be trusted in the game, then nothing can. Nothing!

Oh, and your players love it when you do this. They really love being the butt of the GM's jokes. They really, really love being made to look stupid in their escapist RPG when they've already been put upon all week IRL. They love it so much, they might decide that gaming with you ever again would be anticlimactic. :smallamused:

If you're going to play unreliable narrator games, then for Pelor's sake telegraph that this is what you are doing! Sure, some of your players might play the "I disbelieve" meta-game, but the good ones will go along with it. If needs be throw clues in their faces again and again until at least one of the players tumbles to the fact something simply ain't right. Like one of the articles on the WOTC site says: illusions are ultimately meant to be seen through (otherwise they're just nonsense encounters), secret doors are meant to be found by the protagonists (otherwise they might as well not exist).

Good luck trying to headscrew your players, but don't be surprised at outrage and walkouts. People want to play heroes, not suckers.

[Raum]

I'm just writing to get some quick thoughts and input on what everyone here thinks about screwing around with Players' heads and expectations. The dos and don'ts, the ins and outs, good and bad examples, when it crosses the line, when it ceases to be fun, etc.In general I agree with bosssmiley, you are the players' only interface into the campaign world. They have to trust you. Screwing with that by lying to them is seldom a good thing. Now messing with them while telling the entire truth is a possibility... Of course some are likely to figure it out earlier than others, but that's good. It often leads to completely in character discussions of what is actually going on. :)

[Elhann]

Nothing messes their heads up more than telling the whole truth. The fact that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, is horrible for them, but...

My players were used to have a monster in every body of wter they found in any dungeon they explored. When I got to DM for them, I included a small pool inside a talonite temple. There was absolutely NOTHING inside, and they would have spend half an hour deciding which was the best way to overcome it. When "walk on the floor just next to the pool" would have been perfect.

Are everyone's players so afraid of perfectly fine wells just used by the townsfolk, or estatues?

Elhann

[Paragon Badger]

Nothing messes their heads up more than telling the whole truth. The fact that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, is horrible for them, but...

My players were used to have a monster in every body of wter they found in any dungeon they explored. When I got to DM for them, I included a small pool inside a talonite temple. There was absolutely NOTHING inside, and they would have spend half an hour deciding which was the best way to overcome it. When "walk on the floor just next to the pool" would have been perfect.

Are everyone's players so afraid of perfectly fine wells just used by the townsfolk, or estatues?

Elhann

You enter a large chamber, with ruined pillars. There is a puddle in the center of the room. It's small aquatic ripples shudder at your footsteps, the reflection upon it like a great big eye, staring you down... waiting... searching... for a weakness, perhaps? Scanning your body for a vulernable spot; the puddle waits patiently, unmoving like a patient assassin, still as a sniper, it's aquatic half-inch depths beguile what lies below.

[Maxymiuk]

Are everyone's players so afraid of perfectly fine wells just used by the townsfolk, or estatues?

Not wells specifically, but I do tend to end up with the scarred veteran type of player more often than not.

Me: There is an ivory horn hanging on the wall above the mant-
Player#1: It's a trap!

Me: After defeating the owlbear, in its lair you find a longswo-
Player#2: It's cursed!

Me: Coming towards you is an old-
Player#3: FIREBALL!

:smallsigh:

[ReproMan]

I'm not sure I was entirely clear with what I meant in my original post when I said 'Screwing with their heads'.

I'm doing the 'It's all a dream', not the 'The chair you're sitting on grows teeth and gets hungry', not the 'I am Tyler Durden', and absolutely NOTHING David Lynch. What I meant was more the 'Keyser Soze' or the 'Third Man' mind screw, where the rules of the game are followed perfectly, I describe as faithfully and honestly as I possibly can. It's just the situations and the characters in the game that aren't always... as they seem.

For example, I'll give y'all a quick rundown of my current campaign happenings:

The group is invited to a meeting with a couple other adventuring parties where they're all hired to track down a mysterious killer. After accepting this job from the businessman, the groups go outside, and one of the other Adventuring Parties is promptly nuked without while loading into a cart, with a magician in black robes half a block away laughing his a** off. The players charge after this guy, but he's gone when they get there, and then notice that some of the people who just 'died' in the cart explosion are actually moving and trying to stand. They run up to help them, and it turns out they've all been turned to Zombies. They fight and win, but at the conclusion of this the evil mage Scorching Ray's their employer out of a second story window, leaving behind a 'Major Image' to mock and distract the party as he beats a safe retreat.

Everything that just happened in-game is perfectly within the rules of DnD (in fact, the specific powers used aren't all that much higher than the ECLs of the Party itself). They were just used in creative, unexpected ways to mess with player expectations and introduce a really creepy psychopath villain.

So, my question is this: What are the ways I can use the actual rules in unexpected, interesting ways to mess with the players heads, and how far can I go with this before it ceases to be fun?

[Paragon Badger]

Like how I just said; go in detail to describe something that isn't important. :smallwink:

Player psychology. Go against the tropes and cliches of standard campaigns. The crying child on the corner of the street is really an evil wizard using shapeshift, who is convincing them to walk right into a trap.

[Raum]

The group is invited to a meeting with a couple other adventuring parties where they're all hired to track down a mysterious killer. After accepting this job from the businessman, the groups go outside, and one of the other Adventuring Parties is promptly nuked without while loading into a cart, with a magician in black robes half a block away laughing his a** off. The players charge after this guy, but he's gone when they get there, and then notice that some of the people who just 'died' in the cart explosion are actually moving and trying to stand. They run up to help them, and it turns out they've all been turned to Zombies. They fight and win, but at the conclusion of this the evil mage Scorching Ray's their employer out of a second story window, leaving behind a 'Major Image' to mock and distract the party as he beats a safe retreat.Your description seems to be more of a series of guerrilla attacks than "messing with their heads." There's nothing wrong with using hit and run tactics either, just be prepared for the players to pick a tangent and follow it till it.

One thing to be aware of, the situation - whether sneak attack, assassination attempt, or simple hit and run distraction - doesn't occur in a vacuum. There may be witnesses or even accomplices, hide / spot roles may clue the players in before the antagonists are ready, witnesses may interfere on either side...sometimes intentionally other times by accident, etc. Also, decide ahead of time what the antagonist's goals are and have some idea of what he'll do to accomplish it. In other words, be prepared for your players to keep hunting for the escaped mage and never go back to find the zombies. In this case, what were the zombies raised for, what commands were they given, and how are they accomplishing it?


So, my question is this: What are the ways I can use the actual rules in unexpected, interesting ways to mess with the players heads, and how far can I go with this before it ceases to be fun?Don't abuse the rules in "unexpected ways". There's no need. The rules shouldn't even be the orientation of the game. The rules are merely the physics of the world, they should be secondary to what is happening in the world.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm just writing to get some quick thoughts and input on what everyone here thinks about screwing around with Players' heads and expectations. The dos and don'ts, the ins and outs, good and bad examples, when it crosses the line, when it ceases to be fun, etc. If you're doing it arbitrarily, it's a bad idea. But changing how you run the game to get the players more engaged is an excellent idea.

Start by removing the PCs' digital readouts. That is, you keep track of their hit points, and tell them "That hurt" rather than giving damage numbers; they can make Heal (first aid) checks to gage approximate degree of hurt. Most DMs will say "Make a Will save, DC XX", but you should just say "Make a d20 roll". The general rule is: don't give players information that their PCs wouldn't know. Example:
Succeeding on a Saving Throw

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. If you tell the players what type of saving throw to make, and the DC, they're going to infer something about what's going on from this information. That's a bad idea, because the PCs cannot deduce this. By providing such extra info you're making it harder for your players to roleplay their characters appropriately. Also, don't give names of monsters or spells the PCs encounter; just paraphrase the descriptions until they succeed on their Knowledge or Spellcraft checks. In addition to not naming enemy types, don't read off inventory lists of what they're carrying. Say "That tusked humanoid has some sort of metal armor and is coming at you with a big sword" but don't mention what they're wearing an amulet, two rings, a shiny belt, and a big pouch on the belt -- that's way beyond what the PC's reactive Spot check should glean during combat. Checking to see if the enemy has a spell component pouch should require a non-reactive (move action) Spot check unless the PC has previously seen them reach their hand into it to cast something. That the enemy holds a shield and is swinging a sword at you is obvious. That the hand holding the sword is wearing a black glove with purple stitching isn't going to register unless the PC goes on the defensive and takes the time to examine their enemy more closely.

During combat I treat all player utterances as in-game free action talking. As per the rules, the DM gets to determine how many free actions the PCs get. Too much chatter along the lines of
My longsword is XX-bane, so it's going to do an extra 2d6 damage against these guys. I think bane is a better buy than elemental enhancements like flaming because too many monsters have energy resistance. uses up their free actions. Since drawing ammunition and spell components require free actions, having none left can really hurt them.

Keep the players in character when it matters, and you'll have a more intense, compelling game.