Battle Sorcerer variant Warmage?

[redking]

Any reason why the Battle Sorcerer variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) of Sorcerer could not be applied to Warmage? It doesn't look particularly unbalanced. Any thoughts as to the viability of this?

[lylsyly]

d8 instead of d6 HD and Proficiency with 1 martial weapon are the only gains but at the loss of fewer spells per day?
Why would you want to???

Would be better to just give the warmage the bump in HD and prof in 1 martial weapon. It wouldn't be unbalanced.

just my 2 cp ymmv

[pabelfly]

Any reason why the Battle Sorcerer variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer) of Sorcerer could not be applied to Warmage? It doesn't look particularly unbalanced. Any thoughts as to the viability of this?

If the change interests you, see about applying something similar to both Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer to Warmage with your DM. Lose more spells but get more HP and 3/4 BAB, some weapon proficiencies, and light armor casting without ASF, among other goodies.

It's not a great change though. Stalwart Battle Sorcerer works when you want a simple, no-nonsense Gish. Warmage is really lacking in the spells a Gish wants. You'll need to spend a lot of feats improving your spell list, as well as feats to boost your melee and your casting.

[redking]

d8 instead of d6 HD and Proficiency with 1 martial weapon are the only gains but at the loss of fewer spells per day?
Why would you want to???

You get cleric BAB as well. Makes for a quicker entry to abjurant champion, for example.


If the change interests you, see about applying something similar to both Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer to Warmage with your DM. Lose more spells but get more HP and 3/4 BAB, some weapon proficiencies, and light armor casting without ASF, among other goodies.

It's not a great change though. Stalwart Battle Sorcerer works when you want a simple, no-nonsense Gish. Warmage is really lacking in the spells a Gish wants. You'll need to spend a lot of feats improving your spell list, as well as feats to boost your melee and your casting.

All I wonder about is if having fewer "spells known" is really a trade off because Warmage knows all spells. Maybe losing the Advanced learning class feature might make up for it.

[Biggus]

All I wonder about is if having fewer "spells known" is really a trade off because Warmage knows all spells. Maybe losing the Advanced learning class feature might make up for it.

Given that the Warmage gains less than a Sorcerer from the "battle" variant (their HD only increases one step, and they can already cast in light armor) I wouldn't say this is necessary, especially as the Warmage is generally considered weaker than the Sorcerer to start with.

[redking]

Given that the Warmage gains less than a Sorcerer from the "battle" variant (their HD only increases one step, and they can already cast in light armor) I wouldn't say this is necessary, especially as the Warmage is generally considered weaker than the Sorcerer to start with.

So you'd recommend that the Warmage just get fewer daily spell slots, and just ignore the stuff about spells known?

[TotallyNotEvil]

You could honestly hand it out for free to the poor Warmage.

[Ronin Duelist]

You could honestly hand it out for free to the poor Warmage.

I agree with this one. I mean, it might depend from group to group, and your typical optimization/power levels, but giving the Warmage the bonuses for free wouldn't be unbalanced at all. At the end of the day, the Warmage is still an inferior option to a Sorcerer or a Cleric.

[Seerow]

I agree with this one. I mean, it might depend from group to group, and your typical optimization/power levels, but giving the Warmage the bonuses for free wouldn't be unbalanced at all. At the end of the day, the Warmage is still an inferior option to a Sorcerer or a Cleric.

If you're giving Stalwart and Battle Sorcerer boons, basically you're going from a d6 equivalent to a d12 equivalent, so 3 hp per level, medium BAB, and gaining a martial weapon proficiency. The armor proficiencies overlap with Warmage's existing features. It's not a ton, but it's not nothing either. I'd feel comfortable trading that out for 1 spell per day. I might even consider bumping the armor up a category (so medium at start, heavy at level 8).

[Darg]

I've always looked at the warmage and was always surprised by the low BAB. Sure, it gets 9th level spells, but that didn't stop cleric or druid.

The warmage's real weakness is the extremely limited spell list and there are ways to help mitigate that.

Due to the benefits already obtained by being warmage, the only benefits of the battle sorcerer variant would be:
1) 2 hp at level 1 and +1 every level there after
2) 1 free martial weapon proficiency feat (light or one handed only)
3) 3/4 BAB

Overall, I think it would be a balanced trade losing one spell slot per level and even plays well considering you don't suffer ASF from light shields.

This is especially true when it's completely possible to get divine power on your spell list and you already have transformation on your spell list.

[RandomPeasant]

I've been toying with the idea of a general-purpose ACF something like this:

Battle Mage
You have been trained more in the art of physical violence than most mages.
Prerequisites: Arcane Spellcaster
Lose: You gain one less spell slot per day of each level.
Gain: Your BAB and hit die improve by one step (for example, a Warmage would have 3/4 BAB and a d8 hit die). You gain proficiency with a martial weapon of your choice, or all martial weapons if your class provides you with limited martial weapon proficiency. You gain the ability to cast arcane spells without a failure chance in armor one level heavier than you normally could, and proficiency with armor of that type (for example, a Sorcerer would gain proficiency with light armor and ignore the ASF of light armor). You gain the Arcane Channeling ability of the Duskblade, though not the ability to channel as a full attack.

Then people can just play gishes from 1st level as whichever sort of arcane caster they feel suits their gishing ambitions. The spell knowledge restriction is removed because it either doesn't make sense (for Warmage types), is unreasonably punishing (for Sorcerer types), or is fairly meaningless (for Wizard types).

[Troacctid]

The closest analogue for losing known spells as a warmage is losing advanced learning. So, a direct translation of battle sorcerer to warmage should just take away advanced learning instead of one spell known per level. Easy. Then you just increase hit dice to d10s instead of d8s and armor from light/medium to medium/heavy instead of none to light to account for the warmage's better starting stats, and you're done!


You could honestly hand it out for free to the poor Warmage.

I agree with this one. I mean, it might depend from group to group, and your typical optimization/power levels, but giving the Warmage the bonuses for free wouldn't be unbalanced at all. At the end of the day, the Warmage is still an inferior option to a Sorcerer or a Cleric.
I mean, they're inferior for a self-buffing gish build, sure, but not for a blaster. Warmages are just plain better at their job than sorcerers until, like, level 14 or so. And they're certainly not underpowered—they're sitting in the same tier as the bard, which I think everyone agrees is regular-powered.

[Anthrowhale]

I mean, they're inferior for a self-buffing gish build, sure, but not for a blaster. Warmages are just plain better at their job than sorcerers until, like, level 14 or so. And they're certainly not underpowered—they're sitting in the same tier as the bard, which I think everyone agrees is regular-powered.
It's been awhile since we last discussed this, and in the meantime I played around with the Minimal Mailman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628874-A-Minimal-Mailman) sorcerer. I'm curious how that compares in your view?

Sorcerer, unlike Warmage, benefits from Fire Sphere@L1 (=+1 caster level with fire spells), the Planar Sorcerer substitution level@L5 (=half damage is force), and productive use of Ocular Spell @L6 for double damage in the first round of combat.

[RandomPeasant]

Warmages are good to the degree they can find non-blaster things to do, whether that's the BFC spells they get on their list, or the various things they can do to expand that list. But blasting is not worthwhile in most situations, so the fact that a Warmage is better at it than a Sorcerer is of no real consequence.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I mean, they're inferior for a self-buffing gish build, sure, but not for a blaster. Warmages are just plain better at their job than sorcerers until, like, level 14 or so. And they're certainly not underpowered—they're sitting in the same tier as the bard, which I think everyone agrees is regular-powered.
I agree with you on it being on the same tier as the Bard, but playing a Bard doesn't feel like making the proverbial lemonade, if that makes sense. It's a more cohesive package.

And I agree they are mostly on the same tier in levels of power, and there's shockingly good stuff in their list! But the freedom you give up, even if it's not for power, kind of stings.

Trading one spell per day per level would be fine, but I wouldn't trade Advanced Learning. The class is dearly lacking in wiggle room, and that's it's one feature that helps with that.

Sitting bellow Sorcs in spells per day and with the limited list, but with a fairly robust chassis with feel much better, I think. Would add to the, well, warmage feeling.

[Troacctid]

It's been awhile since we last discussed this, and in the meantime I played around with the Minimal Mailman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628874-A-Minimal-Mailman) sorcerer. I'm curious how that compares in your view?

Sorcerer, unlike Warmage, benefits from Fire Sphere@L1 (=+1 caster level with fire spells), the Planar Sorcerer substitution level@L5 (=half damage is force), and productive use of Ocular Spell @L6 for double damage in the first round of combat.
+1 CL is worth about +3.5 damage, which puts you about even with warmage edge, but only by locking you into the Fire Spells Only build. Half your damage being force is fine, but you could also just...cast a spell of a different element, and deal full damage instead of half? It's solving a problem for the sorcerer that was never a problem at all for the warmage. As for the Ocular Spell + Practical Metamagic combo, that's obviously not exclusive to sorcerers, so you can just take it as a warmage and do the exact same build. So, I think it compares pretty well.

Dragonblood sorcerer, by the way, is one of the least useful ACFs you could be replacing your familiar with in this kind of build. You should be on Aligned Spellcaster, Impromptu Metamagic, Drakken Familiar, or Spell Shield. Other than that, I think the build is fairly illustrative of the differences between sorcerer and warmage postal workers. Sorcerers can go ham with fire, but they have to then spend resources making sure they don't fold to enemies who resist fire. Warmages can go slightly less ham, but they have enough breadth of damage types that they don't have to worry about folding to enemies who resist fire, so they can spend those resources on going more ham instead.


Warmages are good to the degree they can find non-blaster things to do, whether that's the BFC spells they get on their list, or the various things they can do to expand that list. But blasting is not worthwhile in most situations, so the fact that a Warmage is better at it than a Sorcerer is of no real consequence.
On the contrary, blasting is useful in basically every combat. How many monsters in this game can't be defeated by unloading lots of damage onto them? It is, and I say this completely unironically, the universal solution to any encounter.

Yes, any encounter. :vaarsuvius: (https://imgur.com/gallery/axFHUlG)

[Darg]

On the contrary, blasting is useful in basically every combat. How many monsters in this game can't be defeated by unloading lots of damage onto them? It is, and I say this completely unironically, the universal solution to any encounter.

Yes, any encounter. :vaarsuvius: (https://imgur.com/gallery/axFHUlG)

I have to completely agree. A group of creatures is going to be extremely vulnerable to a fireball or an equivalent. Single target fights are a little more iffy, but spells still keep up in this department if your melee aren't ubercharging things to death. The best part is that a DM is going to be less likely to make a creature immune to all damage.

[redking]

Lots of very high quality ideas on this thread.


The closest analogue for losing known spells as a warmage is losing advanced learning. So, a direct translation of battle sorcerer to warmage should just take away advanced learning instead of one spell known per level. Easy. Then you just increase hit dice to d10s instead of d8s and armor from light/medium to medium/heavy instead of none to light to account for the warmage's better starting stats, and you're done!

D'accord on most of this. Not sure about going up to d10s though. Yes, sorcerer gets a d4 increase, but an extra d4 on a d6 seems excessive.

The battle sorcerer allows for the following -


Battle Sorcerer
The battle sorcerer is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.

Hit Die: d8.

Base Attack Bonus: The battle sorcerer uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.

Class Skills
Remove Bluff from the battle sorcerer's class skill list. Add Intimidate to the battle sorcerer's class skill list.

Class Features
The battle sorcerer has all the standard sorcerer class features, except as noted below.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: At 1st level, a battle sorcerer gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. She also gains proficiency with light armor.

Spellcasting: A battle sorcerer can cast sorcerer spells derived from her class levels of battle sorcerer while in light armor without the normal arcane spell failure chance.

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).


Given this, I would just give the intimidate for free and remove advanced learning as you say and one less spell per level.

There isn't much room for stalwart sorcerer, so maybe just roll in stalwart sorcerer.

[Anthrowhale]

+1 CL is worth about +3.5 damage, which puts you about even with warmage edge, but only by locking you into the Fire Spells Only build. Half your damage being force is fine, but you could also just...cast a spell of a different element, and deal full damage instead of half? It's solving a problem for the sorcerer that was never a problem at all for the warmage. As for the Ocular Spell + Practical Metamagic combo, that's obviously not exclusive to sorcerers, so you can just take it as a warmage and do the exact same build. So, I think it compares pretty well.

Warmages have to buy ranks in knowledge[dungeoneering] cross-class which delays Ocular Spell + Practical Metamagic until 9th level. It's also more clear what to load the sorcerer's eyes with since force damage is universal.

Warmages do have a full rainbow of damage flavors available, but if they want to keep up with a fire sorcerer switching away from fire has a significant effect on the quality of their delivery. It looks something like this:


Level
Sorcerer Damage
Warmage Damage
Empower Warmage Damage
Sorcerer Damage to fire immune
Warmage Damage to fire immune


1
2d8 fire (9)
2d8+2 fire (11)
2d8+2 fire (11)
1d8(4.5)
1d8+2 (6.5)


2
3d8 fire (13.5)
2d8+2 fire (11)
2d8+2 fire (11)
1d8(4.5)
1d8+2 (6.5)


3
3d8 fire (13.5)
3d8+2 fire (15.5)
3d8+2 fire (15.5)
2d8(9)
2d8+2 (11)


4
4d8+4 fire (22) or 2x 4d6 fire resist (28)
3d8+6 fire (19.5)
3d8+6 fire (19.5)
2d8(9)
2d8+2 (11)


5
4d8+4 force/fire (22) or 2x 4d6 force/fire resist (28)
4d8+6 fire (24) or 2x 4d6+2 fire resist (30)
4d8+6 fire (24) or 2x 4d6+2 fire resist (30)
2d8+2 (11)
3d8+2 (15.5)


6
10d8+5 force/fire (50)
4d8+7 fire (25) or 2x4d6+4 +3 fire resist (39)
4d8+3 x1.5 fire (31.5) or 2x4d6 +3 x1.5 fire resist (46.5)
5d8+2.5 (25)
5d6+3 (20.5)


7
10d8+5 force/fire (50)
5d8+7 fire (29.5) or 2x4d6+4 +3 fire resist (39)
5d8+3 x1.5 fire (38) or 2x4d6 +3 x1.5 fire resist (46.5)
5d8+2.5 (25)
4d8+3 (21)


8
(10d8+5)*1.5 force/fire (75)
10d6+3 fire (38) or 2x4d6+4 +3 fire resist (39)
10d6+3 fire (38) or 2x4d6+4 +3 x1.5 fire resist (58.5)
(5d8+2.5)*1.5 (37.5)
8d6+3 (31)


9
(10d8+10)*1.5 force/fire (82.5)
10d8+16 fire (61)
11d6+3 fire (41.5) or 3x4d6+4 +3 x1.5 fire resist (85.5)
(5d8+5)*1.5 (41)
9d6+3 (34)


10
(5d8+5)*1.5 + 13d6 force/fire (86.75)
5d8+9 + 12d6+4 fire (77.5)
12d6+12+4 x1.5 fire (63) or 3x4d6+4 +3 x1.5 fire resist (85.5)
(5d8+5)*.75+13d6*.5 (43)
10d6+4 (39)


This is for a warmage taking the same feats as the sorcerer, except ocular spell is delayed until level 6 and is useful at level 9, starts with an edge of 2, and invests in intelligence boosters fairly aggressively.

Once the warmage gets ocular spell + practical metamagic it loads eyes with fire spells and chooses to cast some other spell instead when encountering fire-immune enemies.
The sorcerer gets some non-fire lesser orb spell at level 1 and trades it away for whatever is desired after level 5.

Unused resources:
sorcerer wealth, warmage wealth * ~2/3
warmage advanced learning @3&6, Sorcerer Spells knowns L1*4, L2*3, L3*3, L5.
warmage feat @L3, Sorcerer feat @L9

Overall, I believe the fire sorcerer is on at least rough parity? (Or am I misusing the warmage somehow?) For normal creatures, you see similar damage numbers level 1-5, with the sorcerer pulling ahead level 6-10. For fire immune creatures, you see less damage by the sorcerer in levels 1-5 and more damage in levels 6-10.

[RandomPeasant]

On the contrary, blasting is useful in basically every combat. How many monsters in this game can't be defeated by unloading lots of damage onto them? It is, and I say this completely unironically, the universal solution to any encounter.

Which is why magic missile is universally considered a top-tier 1st level spell, and the most powerful spell in the game is meteor swarm. Blasting is okay in specifically the situation where you are deal with a large group of chaff enemies, and the fact that the Warmage has the ability to pull out a blasting spell in that situation is not without value. But it is not a reliably worthwhile use of your spell slots.

[Anthrowhale]

Which is why magic missile is universally considered a top-tier 1st level spell, and the most powerful spell in the game is meteor swarm. Blasting is okay in specifically the situation where you are deal with a large group of chaff enemies, and the fact that the Warmage has the ability to pull out a blasting spell in that situation is not without value. But it is not a reliably worthwhile use of your spell slots.

I don't agree with this if you optimize the blasting. The sorcerer numbers mentioned above are calibrated around >1/2 killing a single CR=level enemy across 4 encounters per day at all levels. 1 character out of 4 half finishing a typical encounter 4 times per day on their first action is fairly useful and plausibly on the high end of 'not overpowered' for a typical game. Merely optimizing for level 1-10 ended up also satisfying this for 11-20, so if you further optimize at higher levels, blasting becomes simply overpowered. For example (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?621105-The-best-nuke), 10 nukes dealing a total of 50680 damage, half fire, half force, with a fortitude save for 1/2 in a 2.75 mile radius, all of them deliverable in a single round if desired.

[RandomPeasant]

Well that gets you into questions about relative optimization. Certainly you can make your damage numbers very big with appropriate work. But are those very big damage numbers comparably powerful to the things a character could be doing instead with the same level of effort?

[Darg]

It doesn't even take much work. Buy a few rods of metamagic and damage output is fairly optimized if you pick up arcane mastery. Although, metamagic rods like to screw sorcerers. I think burning resources to do ~372 damage on the first round to everything in a 40ft radius is good enough to wipe out a lot of an encounter. I mean, if a character walks in and quicken dispels to finger of death a BBEG and ends what was supposed to be a challenging encounter instantly the DM isn't doing a good job tailoring challenging encounters to the party. When challenging encounters are supposed to take 25% of a party's resources having quick encounter ending options might be valuable, but if you wip them out too often the DM should be compensating to bring expenditure up to near that 25%.

[Gnaeus]

Well that gets you into questions about relative optimization. Certainly you can make your damage numbers very big with appropriate work?

You really don’t want to make this about comparative optimization. That takes into account the floor as well as the ceiling, and warmages are likely to significantly outperform a sorcerer who doesn’t know what he is doing. You would need to demonstrate that the high op high level sorcerer is better at damage combat by more than a first level warmage is better than a first level sorcerer who took mage armor and burning hands or magic missile or shocking grasp.

[Troacctid]

Overall, I believe the fire sorcerer is on at least rough parity? (Or am I misusing the warmage somehow?) For normal creatures, you see similar damage numbers level 1-5, with the sorcerer pulling ahead level 6-10. For fire immune creatures, you see less damage by the sorcerer in levels 1-5 and more damage in levels 6-10.
The warmage should be using fireburst or scorching ray once they get them. The non-fire spell is typically lightning bolt or ice storm (or an advanced learning spell—Boccob's rolling cloud is good with fire bonuses and duplicates the planar sorcerer ability, so that would be my pick) at level 6–7. If you can't manage Ocular Spell, you can use Empower Spell instead, which has the advantage of working on AoE effects too, or Corrupt Spell, which doesn't add as much damage (+1 per die with a Stone Socket of Gruumsh) but would be a +0 metamagic instead of +1.

If you track damage against two targets instead of just one, or if the target is ever more than 65 feet away, the warmage should pull ahead very easily. The warmage is also advantaged at the spell level break points (especially 6, 8, and 12) due to having more spells known of their highest level.

Also, don't forget that the warmage can use a pearl of the waves to cast quickened ice storm at level 6 or quickened cone of cold at level 10 very cheaply, so they can double-spell easily when they need to nova. The sorcerer can't use that trick because they don't have the spells known to spare, and also they can only get ice storm as a 4th level spell, and they have -2 CL for cold spells.

If I were the sorcerer, I'd take Aligned Spellcaster. That would tighten up the contest significantly, because you'd either be getting between +1 and +3 CL for picking good or +1 damage per die for picking evil. I'd also go kobold and swap in Draconic Reservoir for one of the other feats to get higher-level spells faster. You can still take Bloodline of Fire with a regional background. If you're a stalwart sorcerer, choose the greatpick as your martial weapon, then become a dragonborn so that it becomes an invalid choice, allowing you to swap the two bonus feats for any other feats of your choice—AKA more metamagic stuff. And that's how a sorcerer beats a warmage at blasting!


Which is why magic missile is universally considered a top-tier 1st level spell, and the most powerful spell in the game is meteor swarm. Blasting is okay in specifically the situation where you are deal with a large group of chaff enemies, and the fact that the Warmage has the ability to pull out a blasting spell in that situation is not without value. But it is not a reliably worthwhile use of your spell slots.
Are those really the best blasting spells you've heard of? No wonder you think blasting is underpowered.


Well that gets you into questions about relative optimization. Certainly you can make your damage numbers very big with appropriate work. But are those very big damage numbers comparably powerful to the things a character could be doing instead with the same level of effort?
Well yeah.
https://c.tenor.com/BNE4h1UEy6kAAAAM/her-comes-the-mail-mail-dog.gif
The numbers are also very big without any work. Try mathing out how much damage a warmage deals on average by using Sudden Empower on a greater fireburst hitting two enemies, or eight holly berries hitting just one. How does that compare to the things you could be doing instead with zero effort?

[RandomPeasant]

You really don’t want to make this about comparative optimization. That takes into account the floor as well as the ceiling, and warmages are likely to significantly outperform a sorcerer who doesn’t know what he is doing.

In my experience, Sorcerers who don't know what they're doing end up with a spell selection that can be roughly approximated as "randomly choose from what the fixed-list casters get". When that's blasting spells, the Warmage is better, but fairly marginally so (Sudden Empower is probably the biggest of what they get, and it's not a big enough deal for a 1/day effect). But blasting spells are the worst of the things on the fixed-list caster lists by a large margin (which is why the Warmage is T3 and the others are T2). A Warmage looks real bad when the Sorcerer happens to pick color spray or sleep as his 1st level spell, which happens roughly as often as picking magic missile or burning hands. The Warmage does make out okay, but that's because they get a good non-blasting spell at most levels, not because blasting is Good Actually at any level of optimization.


Try mathing out how much damage a warmage deals on average by using Sudden Empower on a greater fireburst hitting two enemies, or eight holly berries hitting just one. How does that compare to the things you could be doing instead with zero effort?

You're the one making the argument, you do the math. It's not my job to tell you why you're wrong, it's your job to tell me why you're right. But I'm sure that the math on the 1/day nova in favorable circumstances will make for a super compelling argument once you've bothered to make it.

[Darg]

In my experience, Sorcerers who don't know what they're doing end up with a spell selection that can be roughly approximated as "randomly choose from what the fixed-list casters get". When that's blasting spells, the Warmage is better, but fairly marginally so (Sudden Empower is probably the biggest of what they get, and it's not a big enough deal for a 1/day effect). But blasting spells are the worst of the things on the fixed-list caster lists by a large margin (which is why the Warmage is T3 and the others are T2). A Warmage looks real bad when the Sorcerer happens to pick color spray or sleep as his 1st level spell, which happens roughly as often as picking magic missile or burning hands. The Warmage does make out okay, but that's because they get a good non-blasting spell at most levels, not because blasting is Good Actually at any level of optimization.



You're the one making the argument, you do the math. It's not my job to tell you why you're wrong, it's your job to tell me why you're right. But I'm sure that the math on the 1/day nova in favorable circumstances will make for a super compelling argument once you've bothered to make it.

You're making the argument that non-damage control spells are better in all situations over damage spells without any proof yourself. If a creature is dead, it is much harder for the situation to reverse itself than if were just asleep. Against one target a 10d6 spell does 35 damage on average with failed saves or 17.5 with saves. Now, what if we increased the number of target hits to 4? That's an average of 70-140 damage. By the book an EL 10 encounter with 4 creatures means 4 CR 6 creatures which can range from 17 hp all the way up to 100+. Now, what happens if you happen use a charge from your maximize rod? You now do 140-240 damage or 30 per save or 60 per failed. Even for a CR appropriate single creature encounter, 30 HP from 170 hp leaves 140. Now imagine the rest of your party does 30 damage each and the creature is left with 50. For a game designed around taking 3-4 turns to per encounter, doing 30 damage is above and beyond appropriate. Now, what if you do 30, one does 10, another does 5, and the last does 0. Doing 30 damage seems like a bigger deal now.

[Troacctid]

In my experience, Sorcerers who don't know what they're doing end up with a spell selection that can be roughly approximated as "randomly choose from what the fixed-list casters get". When that's blasting spells, the Warmage is better, but fairly marginally so (Sudden Empower is probably the biggest of what they get, and it's not a big enough deal for a 1/day effect). But blasting spells are the worst of the things on the fixed-list caster lists by a large margin (which is why the Warmage is T3 and the others are T2). A Warmage looks real bad when the Sorcerer happens to pick color spray or sleep as his 1st level spell, which happens roughly as often as picking magic missile or burning hands. The Warmage does make out okay, but that's because they get a good non-blasting spell at most levels, not because blasting is Good Actually at any level of optimization.
If you think color spray is such a game-breaker, just take Anarchic Bloodline. Personally, I think save-or-lose effects are overrated. They're obviously a lot more powerful when they work, but they also have a good chance of doing absolutely nothing, either because the target saved or because they were immune. The sorcerer who took color spray as her only offensive spell at level 1 is going to feel pretty stupid when she runs into any vermin or undead (both very common low-level enemies) or constructs or oozes (less common at low levels but not unheard of). Blasting works on everything and still does half damage on a save.


You're the one making the argument, you do the math. It's not my job to tell you why you're wrong, it's your job to tell me why you're right. But I'm sure that the math on the 1/day nova in favorable circumstances will make for a super compelling argument once you've bothered to make it.
I didn't math it out because I assumed, apparently wrongly, that you would already have some idea of the damage that good blasting spells can deal (or at least be able to quickly extrapolate from the spell description) before arguing that they suck. Which I guess is my bad, since you had already named magic missile and meteor swarm as your benchmarks. How can you possibly have an informed opinion about blasting spells if you don't know how much damage they do? Did you just hear once that blasting was bad and take it on faith without examining how or why or in what circumstances it would be true?

(They're both around 200 damage, by the way, or 100 damage on a miss. Zero feats, zero items needed.)

[Anthrowhale]

The warmage should be using fireburst or scorching ray once they get them.
Fireburst seems like a pretty iffy spell to optimize for tactically? Surrounding yourself with enemies and avoiding friends is tactically unsound. It's also resistance:yes and save:refl.

Scorching Ray is good at level 5 when you get two rays although you do pick up spell resistance. The Sorcerer could use it with 2 rays at level 4. I adjusted the table.


The non-fire spell is typically lightning bolt or ice storm (or an advanced learning spell—Boccob's rolling cloud is good with fire bonuses and duplicates the planar sorcerer ability, so that would be my pick) at level 6–7.

SR:Yes and Save:Refl are unappealing. Ice Storm at least is Save:no --- table adjusted.


If you can't manage Ocular Spell, you can use Empower Spell instead, which has the advantage of working on AoE effects too, or Corrupt Spell, which doesn't add as much damage (+1 per die with a Stone Socket of Gruumsh) but would be a +0 metamagic instead of +1.

Empower Spell can help. It looks like it allows the warmage to keep up with sorcerer damage-wise although your stuck with spell resistance. Table updated. Corrupt Spell applies to only a single spell, so it seems rather incompatible with the essence of a warmage.


If you track damage against two targets instead of just one, or if the target is ever more than 65 feet away, the warmage should pull ahead very easily. The warmage is also advantaged at the spell level break points (especially 6, 8, and 12) due to having more spells known of their highest level.

The sorcerer doesn't really require many spells to deal damage, but there are many spells known that could be used if desired.


Also, don't forget that the warmage can use a pearl of the waves to cast quickened ice storm at level 6 or quickened cone of cold at level 10 very cheaply, so they can double-spell easily when they need to nova. The sorcerer can't use that trick because they don't have the spells known to spare, and also they can only get ice storm as a 4th level spell, and they have -2 CL for cold spells.

This particular sorcerer is only using ~4 spells known.


If I were the sorcerer, I'd take Aligned Spellcaster. That would tighten up the contest significantly, because you'd either be getting between +1 and +3 CL for picking good or +1 damage per die for picking evil.

These seem disadvantageous. More caster level runs into caster level caps quickly. Maybe aligned[evil] works, but it's not to compatible with Mark of the Enlightened Soul.

Using the table, it looks like the warmage is almost caught up to the sorcerer at this point.

[RandomPeasant]

Fireburst seems like a pretty iffy spell to optimize for tactically? Surrounding yourself with enemies and avoiding friends is tactically unsound. It's also resistance:yes and save:refl.

I'm really not sure why that's getting talked up. You get one extra damager per level over the likes of fireball and lightning bolt, but you have to make tactical decisions that are dramatically worse, and it's much harder to hit multiple targets. If fireball hits more things than fireburst does (and it almost always will), it does more damage.


The sorcerer doesn't really require many spells to deal damage, but there are many spells known that could be used if desired.

The Warmage's advantage of having more blasting spells known is really overstated. If you want flexibility, you get much more value out of a different approach than out of a slight variation on the same approach.


You're making the argument that non-damage control spells are better in all situations over damage spells without any proof yourself. If a creature is dead, it is much harder for the situation to reverse itself than if were just asleep.

Sure. But you can put a target to sleep with one sleep spell, and you can't put them to dead with one blasting spell. At least, not without a great deal of optimization.


Now, what if we increased the number of target hits to 4?

And what if we give all the targets Evasion? If your argument starts out with "let's assume this is an encounter that is extremely favorable for a blaster mage", it's not really a very compelling argument for a blaster mage.


If you think color spray is such a game-breaker, just take Anarchic Bloodline.

So you concede that the way to make Warmages good is to get them non-blasting spells. I don't think the class is bad. But the idea that the reason the class is good is because it has spells like fireball and cone of cold is just not remotely accurate.


They're obviously a lot more powerful when they work, but they also have a good chance of doing absolutely nothing, either because the target saved or because they were immune.

So do blasting spells! Depending how you massage the damage numbers and turn order, a 15 or 20 damage fireball may well have no effect on how many rounds it takes to kill a Troll. On a failed save, a save-or-lose causes the target to lose. On a failed save, a blasting spell deals about as much damage as a comparably-powerful martial character. One of these things is better than the other, and it's not the one you're talking up.


I didn't math it out because I assumed, apparently wrongly, that you would already have some idea of the damage that good blasting spells can deal

You'll note that you don't specify spells until after I did. There are, in fact, people who think magic missile is a gold-standard spell. Some of those people even worked for WotC writing 3.5. Those people are wrong, but you are also wrong, so I'll thank you not to insult me for not knowing which of the mediocre pile of magic that is "blasting spells" you thought were the good ones before you bothered to specify.


(They're both around 200 damage, by the way, or 100 damage on a miss. Zero feats, zero items needed.)

As far as mathematical backing for your argument goes, this is pretty slim pickings, but at least it's something. So, sure, let's go.

First, Empowered greater fireburst. This does in fact do an impressive pile of damage. It is also a 1/day nova that requires you to be within 10ft of two different opponents, as a character with no native mobility or defensive options. Imagine, for a moment, a concrete example of an EL 10 encounter with two opponents: a pair of stone giants. Let's suppose, for the sake of your argument, that the stone giants are within a single move of the Warmage and that they're close enough that you can hit both of them. You run up close enough to hit the stone giants. This provokes attacks of opportunity from both of them. Good luck with that concentration check.

Second, fire seeds. Your math appears to be wrong again here, unless you are also assuming this is your 1/day nova, in which case I really think you should re-asses your view of the Warmage in the other three encounters where it doesn't get to deal 50% extra damage. The issue here is that you have to get your enemy to step on top of your landmine, which they have no particular reason to do. And the landmine's range is pretty tiny, so getting them to accidentally maneuver into the area seems pretty rough. And 200 damage doesn't even kill a CR 12 bruiser like the Colossal Monstrous Scorpion.

So after doing basically all your math for you, I find myself just as unimpressed with the damage output of blasters as I was before doing that. I think I will probably not do that again, and go back to assuming people who don't present math to back up their argument are just wrong.

[Darg]

Sure. But you can put a target to sleep with one sleep spell, and you can't put them to dead with one blasting spell. At least, not without a great deal of optimization.



And what if we give all the targets Evasion? If your argument starts out with "let's assume this is an encounter that is extremely favorable for a blaster mage", it's not really a very compelling argument for a blaster mage.

I did it to show the advantages damage spells have and the disparity that the number of targets have on the health of the enemies you face. We can also say that facing creatures not immune to mind effecting spells is an extremely favorable encounter for enchanters and say it isn't a compelling argument for an enchanter. With the same logic we could say that being a conjurer outside of a permanent dimension lock is extremely favorable for the conjuror and so it isn't a very compelling argument for a conjurer.

The fact that a favorable situation for a blaster is making you argue that unfavorable situations negates it's usefulness is pretty telling that your position is groundless. I mean, why stop at evasion and not give every creature you come across improved evasion? The point of blasting is to make it easier for others to finish the job or to finish it yourself. You are also able to inflict damage in an area. Some of the fun is pushing the envelope with how much damage you can do and that amount is large if you burn resources.

An example of soloing your colossal scorpion example as a 12th level caster would be to cast scorching ray using lesser rods of maximize and empower, twin spell or energy admixture, and then cast celerity to do it again. There is also the option to add a lesser quicken rod. All done as a one round kill. If you are getting the drop on the creature you could take advantage of invisibility and delay spell too.

[Troacctid]

Fireburst seems like a pretty iffy spell to optimize for tactically? Surrounding yourself with enemies and avoiding friends is tactically unsound. It's also resistance:yes and save:refl.
It is somewhat situational, but then again, compared to a melee gish... 🤷

Try putting it in a glyph seal for best results.


Corrupt Spell applies to only a single spell, so it seems rather incompatible with the essence of a warmage.
Are you looking at the 3.0 version?


The sorcerer doesn't really require many spells to deal damage, but there are many spells known that could be used if desired.
Only one of your highest level at those break points, though. Warmages learn more spells faster. Sorcerers have to wait longer. This tends to give warmages an edge (yuk yuk yuk) early on, while sorcerers start to catch up later, with exactly where that inflection point is depending on their respective builds.


The fact that a favorable situation for a blaster is making you argue that unfavorable situations negates it's usefulness is pretty telling that your position is groundless. I mean, why stop at evasion and not give every creature you come across improved evasion? The point of blasting is to make it easier for others to finish the job or to finish it yourself. You are also able to inflict damage in an area. Some of the fun is pushing the envelope with how much damage you can do and that amount is large if you burn resources.
Evasion doesn't even help much against warmages, because when they're fighting a rogue, they can just switch to a spell with a ranged touch attack, or a Fortitude save, or no save at all. We can see how well you can sneak attack when you're stuck in a stinking cloud or black tentacles. Being shut down by special defenses is a problem for sorcerer blasters, but it's definitely not a problem for warmages. Warmages are extremely difficult to shut down once you get past the early levels.

[Anthrowhale]

Try putting it in a glyph seal for best results.

The ability to have a source of damage which matches whatever oddball circumstance you happen to end up in does matter at times. I'm not sure how to take that into account, but it's not measured by the table I made. On the other hand, the sorcerer's ability to use Alter Self and Arcane Fusion isn't accounted for either.


Are you looking at the 3.0 version?

The champions of ruin version is 3.5 and applies to a single spell. The complete divine version is 3.5 and costs a level. Both are kinda meh?


Only one of your highest level at those break points, though.

Generically perhaps, but not in this particular build. For the chosen metamagic it's always better to use lower level spells anyways.

One last thought, is that we haven't used items much in the table. The Bolt of Heironeous (.35K after mark of the enlightened soul comes online), ring of mystic fire (7.5k gp), and lesser rods of empower spell (9k gp) are each relevant. These somewhat favor the sorcerer but increase the damage output of both.

[RandomPeasant]

I did it to show the advantages damage spells have and the disparity that the number of targets have on the health of the enemies you face.

What advantages? There are also AoE save-or-lose spells. The Warmage even has some of them, which you can cast instead of trying to do things with fireball or running up into melee range with multiple enemies. The fact that all the Warmage boosters can talk about is "what if the Warmage uses his 1/day nova in favorable circumstances against enemies that tactically cooperate with him" indicates that the Warmage is not very good.


We can also say that facing creatures not immune to mind effecting spells is an extremely favorable encounter for enchanters and say it isn't a compelling argument for an enchanter.

And that would be a reasonable argument. Let's talk about enchanters for a second, specifically the most comparable enchanter: the Beguiler. What happens when you encounter an enemy that's immune to mind-effecting spells? Are you, in fact, hosed? No. You aren't. At 1st level, the Beguiler gets silent image, which is extremely potent against mindless enemies, who represent the bulk of foes immune to her sleeps and color sprays at that level. And 4th level, she picks up glitterdust, a top-tier offensive spell that isn't mind-affecting to begin with. At 6th level, she grabs haste and slow, giving her reliably useful options against any foe, and dispel magic to strip spells like protection from law off any opponents relying on defensive spells to negate her. Eventually, they she accumulate a collection of charmed, dominated, or Diplomancy'd allies that she can have beat up on anyone immune to her mainline offensive spells. That's what having a reliable backup plan for unfavorable circumstances looks like, and it's part of what you need to have an effective strategy.


With the same logic we could say that being a conjurer outside of a permanent dimension lock is extremely favorable for the conjuror and so it isn't a very compelling argument for a conjurer.

"Permanent dimension lock" is about as common as "Permanent antimagic field", not "you encounter only one opponent".


The point of blasting is to make it easier for others to finish the job or to finish it yourself.

And what does the math look like on that? What assumptions are you making about your allies' damage output and the enemies you're fighting to have fireball shorten a fight? Here's the assumptions I have to make sleep do that: you cast it, then all the enemies who fail their saves are out of the fight automatically.

[Anthrowhale]

"Permanent dimension lock" is about as common as "Permanent antimagic field", not "you encounter only one opponent".

Note that the table I made is explicitly for the 'you encounter one opponent' situation.

[Gnaeus]

And that would be a reasonable argument. Let's talk about enchanters for a second, specifically the most comparable enchanter: the Beguiler. What happens when you encounter an enemy that's immune to mind-effecting spells? Are you, in fact, hosed? No. You aren't. At 1st level, the Beguiler gets silent image, which is extremely potent against mindless enemies, who represent the bulk of foes immune to her sleeps and color sprays at that level. And 4th level, she picks up glitterdust, a top-tier offensive spell that isn't mind-affecting to begin with. At 6th level, she grabs haste and slow, giving her reliably useful options against any foe, and dispel magic to strip spells like protection from law off any opponents relying on defensive spells to negate her. Eventually, they she accumulate a collection of charmed, dominated, or Diplomancy'd allies that she can have beat up on anyone immune to her mainline offensive spells. That's what having a reliable backup plan for unfavorable circumstances looks like, and it's part of what you need to have an effective strategy.

And what does the math look like on that? What assumptions are you making about your allies' damage output and the enemies you're fighting to have fireball shorten a fight? Here's the assumptions I have to make sleep do that: you cast it, then all the enemies who fail their saves are out of the fight automatically.

And beguiler ALSO has a higher optimization floor than either sorcerer or warmage. Which we don’t actually need to compare because they do different things. No one said Warmage is better than beguiler. We said warmage is effective at blasting, and better in combat than sorcerer at low op.

Sleep is a HIGHLY situational spell. For example:
Sorcerer 1 v. Warmage 1. Warmage can only roll 1s on all his d20s.
Sorcerer 1 casts sleep.
Sleep has a 1 round cast time. Warmage casts magic missile. Does 1d4+5. Sorcerer loses spell and dies.

Or

Sorcerer encounters any undead or vermin. Sleep and color spray don’t work. He is a warmage with 2 less hp, no shield, and all spells expended.

Or

Sorcerer encounters anyone with a bow. Begins to cast sleep and gets shot.

Which doesn’t make sorcerer worthless, or even below warmage in tier. The sorcerer could be using mount to get places quickly. Or charm person to interrogate enemy guards. Or unseen servant to clean Baba Yaga’s hut. But he isn’t better at combat because he picked sleep.

[ThanatosZero]

Battle Mage
You have been trained more in the art of physical violence than most mages.
Prerequisites: Arcane Spellcaster
Lose: You gain one less spell slot per day of each level.
Gain: Your BAB and hit die improve by one step (for example, a Warmage would have 3/4 BAB and a d8 hit die). You gain proficiency with a martial weapon of your choice, or all martial weapons if your class provides you with limited martial weapon proficiency. You gain the ability to cast arcane spells without a failure chance in armor one level heavier than you normally could, and proficiency with armor of that type (for example, a Sorcerer would gain proficiency with light armor and ignore the ASF of light armor). You gain the Arcane Channeling ability of the Duskblade, though not the ability to channel as a full attack.


That is one fine ACF. A Bard gains d8 HDs, good BAB and the ability to cast spells in medium armor.

A Battle Mage Bard 10/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Spellsword 1/Bladesinger 1
will have 19 BAB, CL 20, 10/20 Bard and 10/10 Sublime Chord Spellcasting.

Spell Level Spells per Day Spells Known
0th 2 6
1st 2 4
2nd 2 4
3rd 1 4
4th 0+5 2+4
5th 4 4
6th 4 4
7th 3 4
8th 3 3
9th 2 2

[aglondier]

Monte Cook did a very good Battle Sorceror in his Arcana Unearthed.

[Psyren]

...all this time I had no idea Warmages are ½ BAB, why???

[Darg]

...all this time I had no idea Warmages are ½ BAB, why???

Beats me. 9/10 I think they are 3/4 BAB. It might be that WotC was afraid of arcane 9ths casters having 3/4 BAB as a standard benefit because it is a divine caster thing. Considering the massive penalties for battle sorcerer variant and the relatively strong benefits (if we consider martial ability=spellcasting) they get in exchange it seems like a fair trade.

[redking]

Beats me. 9/10 I think they are 3/4 BAB. It might be that WotC was afraid of arcane 9ths casters having 3/4 BAB as a standard benefit because it is a divine caster thing. Considering the massive penalties for battle sorcerer variant and the relatively strong benefits (if we consider martial ability=spellcasting) they get in exchange it seems like a fair trade.

I was surprised that warmages are only 1/2 BAB too. That's why I am going with this for the warmage type classes.


Battle mage variant class features for warmage, dread necromancer and beguiler
The battle mage is no weak arcanist, hiding behind the fighters. Instead, she is a capable physical combatant who mixes magical prowess with fighting skill.
Hit Die: d8.
Base Attack Bonus: The battle mage uses the base attack bonus progression of the cleric.
Class Features
The battle mage or has all the standard warmage or dread necromancer or beguiler class features, except as noted below.
Weapon Proficiency: At 1st level, a battle mage or dread battle mage gains proficiency with any light or one-handed martial weapon of the character's choice. A battle mage that already has proficiency in a martial weapon gets an additional martial weapon proficiency.
Spellcasting: A battle mage has fewer daily spell slots than a standard warmage or dread necromancer or beguiler. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Warmage or Table: The Dread Necromancer or Table: The Beguiler (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level warmage may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).
A battle mage mage loses the advanced learning class feature of warmages or dread necromancers or beguilers.

I have a growing appreciation for ACFs and variant classes, which I believe Pathfinder embraced strongly with archetypes.