Unearthed Arcana: Travelers of the Multiverse

[P. G. Macer]

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/travelers-multiverse
(https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/travelers-multiverse)
New Races! WotC seems to be experimenting a bit with racial features, and it seems likely Planescape or Spelljammer is on the horizon!

[Amechra]

This looks like Spelljammer.

Why? The Giff.

[P. G. Macer]

This looks like Spelljammer.

Why? The Giff.

Yeah, if I had to put money on which meta-setting was in the works, I’d say Spelljammer, especially with the Giff and Autognome. The Astral Elf makes me hesitate, though, unless WotC decides to port Spelljammer into the Astral Plane, which would doubtless enrage most fans of the setting.

My first thoughts are that several of these races are broken. The Giff notably gets advantage on all Strength checks and saves, and the Thri-kreen is loaded with powerful features. The Hadozee, meanwhile, seems underpowered, with only two situational features.

I’m not sure how the Autognome’s healing exemptions hold up beyond Tier 1. Does anyone have the list of spells that don’t affect constructs handy? I know Aura of Vitality is lacking the “doesn’t affect constructs/undead” clause, while Healing Spirit does have it, but I’m not sure about the rest.

[Cicciograna]

I really like these races. Also, the pun on the "giff" name made me smile.

Now I want to play a Plasmoid and name it Ditto.

[stoutstien]

Well of they are going to make races stand on their own with out the ability score crunch they will need to takes some big chances with actually features. Most of these are probably too strong but not so much so they couldn't be dialed in.

[Unoriginal]

It doesn't have to be Spelljammer or Planescape, 5e uses Spelljammer as a basis for the Material Plane and Planescape as a basis for the other planes.

So my guess is they're preparing books on both.

[Ralanr]

Well of they are going to make races stand on their own with out the ability score crunch they will need to takes some big chances with actually features. Most of these are probably too strong but not so much so they couldn't be dialed in.

Yeah. Though I feel the Giff's is just kind of...not interesting? Damage dealer is strong, very strong. But that doesn't really scream to me something that the British solider dressed Hippomen with black powder weapons would have. Feels more like a half-ogre thing.

Also, kind of wish Shardmind were introduced in this. They were a 4e race with specific lore, but I feel they'd fit well in Spelljammer.

[Wildstag]

Were Hadozee Spelljammer content? I thought they were introduced in Stormwrack just like the Darfellan was. Interesting addition to 5e either way though.

P.S. Hopefully this somewhat silences the "small Goliath & medium halfling" discussion. It is clear Giff are still ONLY medium and Auto-Gnomes are ONLY small, and Astral Elves are ONLY medium.

[Amnestic]

The Giff features are quite good but there's only two of them. Would love an extra 'ribbon' or something. Even if they're not weaker than (Astral) Elves (debatable), the elves get 7 racial features and Giff get 2. Just feels very lopsided.

[Telwar]

...oozes? The heck?

[jaappleton]

No playable flumphs yet, huh?

I demand a race that moves by farting!

THIS IS INTENTIONALLY NOT IN BLUE TEXT GIVE US WHAT WE WANT WOTC

[stoutstien]

Yeah. Though I feel the Giff's is just kind of...not interesting? Damage dealer is strong, very strong. But that doesn't really scream to me something that the British solider dressed Hippomen with black powder weapons would have. Feels more like a half-ogre thing.

Also, kind of wish Shardmind were introduced in this. They were a 4e race with specific lore, but I feel they'd fit well in Spelljammer.

You might be over sold on the reroll of a single 1 once per turn. Even with a bunch a dice flying around it will never add more than ~1 per turn on average in the long run. The constant advantage on str checks would make this guy a prime grappling machine but OTOH adv in checks is getting cheaper and easier to gain as material is released (RK).

[RogueJK]

Astral Elf is an decent option for folks who want to snag a solid damage cantrip (Sacred Flame), especially since you can use your choice of INT/WIS/CHA. Could be a good choice for a more combat-oriented Bard who wants something that packs more of a punch than Vicious Mockery, a Druid who wants something longer-ranged than Produce Flame/Thorn Whip, a Monk who wants a WIS-based ranged attack option, or a Paladin who wants a ranged damage option besides hurling Javelins but also doesn't want to give up their Fighting Style to grab cantrips.

I'm thinking an Astral Elf Stars Druid, focusing on 60' WIS-based radiant damage ranged combat with Sacred Flame + Archer form, supplemented by Guiding Bolts as needed.

Or an Astral [S]Elf Monk, with both WIS-SAD melee and ranged options. Thematically on point too.


Autognome is interesting in that its a Construct. Even Warforged aren't Constructs. That could cause some complications for party healing magic, since most healing spells can't be used on constructs. Even though they specifically allow for the Cure Wounds and Healing Word spells to work on Autognomes in the racial description, it still leaves you unable to benefit from other healing spells like Heal/Healing Spirit/Prayer of Healing/Power Word Heal/etc.

But I do like the idea of an Autognome Battle Smith Artificer, who has himself created his own "autognome" Steel Defender construct. As a Small creature, your Autognome could ride around mounted on your larger clone's shoulders. :smallbiggrin:


Hazodees are ganking Thief Rogue's schtick, with their Bonus Action Use An Object ability. I foresee a number of Hazodees with the Healer feat.

[Ralanr]

You might be over sold on the reroll of a single 1 once per turn. Even with a bunch a dice flying around it will never add more than ~1 per turn on average in the long run. The constant advantage on str checks would make this guy a prime grappling machine but OTOH adv in checks is getting cheaper and easier to gain as material is released (RK).

I don't do grappling much so that's probably why I overlooked it.

[stoutstien]

Hadozee would also make interesting artificer with a built in way to use the SSI as a bonus action but the thri-kreen is asking for trouble with all the "when held" boosters for spell casters floating around.

[Millstone85]

Interesting how the word "lineage" does not appear anywhere in the document.


Also, the pun on the "giff" name made me smile.So two giff meet in Sigil... :smallbiggrin:


Also, kind of wish Shardmind were introduced in this. They were a 4e race with specific lore, but I feel they'd fit well in Spelljammer.I think so too! Instead of being fragments of the Living Gate, they could come from damaged crystal spheres.


...oozes? The heck?Odo, Yaphit, Blobby, Rimuru, Suu... Plenty of sentient ooze characters to emulate.

[Townopolis]

My grognard is coming out; I dislike that autognomes have a 30' move speed.

But I am excited by the idea of playable ooze characters.

[nickl_2000]

Can we bring up the fact that Thri-kreen can dual wield weapons, have a shield out, and cast spells without warcaster all at the same time.

[jaappleton]

Can we bring up the fact that Thri-kreen can dual wield weapons, have a shield out, and cast spells without warcaster all at the same time.

I'm ALWAYS on the team of 'Let the players do it', 'boost the players level of power', etc because the DM can do a billion different things to compensate, to offset whatever players might do.

Even I think that is pretty garbage, and it should not make it into print.

[Unoriginal]

The Giff features are quite good but there's only two of them. Would love an extra 'ribbon' or something. Even if they're not weaker than (Astral) Elves (debatable), the elves get 7 racial features and Giff get 2. Just feels very lopsided.

Giffs are likely to get some kind of gun-proficiency feature and some kind of skill or tool proficiency feature for the 'Imperial British Officier' vibe, when this UA gets a rewrite.

If they only get the skill/tool proficiency but not any gun one, I guess they'd still be the very model of a modern Major-General.

[jaappleton]

Giffs are likely to get some kind of gun-proficiency feature and some kind of skill or tool proficiency feature for the 'Imperial British Officier' vibe, when this UA gets a rewrite.

If they only get the skill/tool proficiency but not any gun one, I guess they'd still be the very model of a modern Major-General.

See.... I don't know about that. What if firearms are introduced in the setting just as standard, non-exotic weaponry? If its filed under 'martial weapons', do you think they'd still get that racial proficiency?

Normally I'd 100% agree, what you're saying makes sense. But how are firearms treated in that setting, are they still exotic like they might be in any other world?

I'm legit asking, I've never played Spelljammer.

[Sigreid]

The Hozee and Plasmoids are knock off Yazarians and Draslites from Star Frontiers. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[nickl_2000]

So for Plasmoids it says

When plasmoids sleep, they lose their rigidity and spread out and are sometimes mistaken for a rock or some other feature of the environment.

Does that mean if I'm a plasmoid PC and I get knocked to 0 hp I ooze out of my armor? So, I won't have it on when I'm healed back to conciousness?

[togapika]

So the Giff are old-timey British military who love guns and explosions, and they get a feature for....melee damage??

[Dork_Forge]

Am I the only one that saw Thri-Kreen and immediately squealed "Darksun?!" in self delusion?

Thoughts on the races themselves to come later

[nickl_2000]

Am I the only one that saw Thri-Kreen and immediately squealed "Darksun?!" in self delusion?

Thoughts on the races themselves to come later

No, one of the players in my groups FB chat did pretty much that.

[Ralanr]

My grognard is coming out; I dislike that autognomes have a 30' move speed.

But I am excited by the idea of playable ooze characters.

I didn't even consider the movement speed. Jeez, they're probably gonna make dwarves, halflings, and gnomes have 30 in the revamp just because.



I'm ALWAYS on the team of 'Let the players do it', 'boost the players level of power', etc because the DM can do a billion different things to compensate, to offset whatever players might do.

Even I think that is pretty garbage, and it should not make it into print.

Yeah the Thri-Keen secondary arms is just sort of open to abuse. Though the worst I thought of was using TWF to have a heavy weapon in your main hands, and another non heavy in your primary.

Heck, you can have a hand crossbow in there.

[Protolisk]

Wow, so Giff are so strong, that they get what's basically the weakest fighting style (Great Weapon Fighting) for free, and can use it on any weapon, but only once per turn.

I get that it can be used on Smites or similar buffed attacks, but the reroll of a single die is not really that big of a buff. Let alone that its once per turn, and that it's on a race that is known for their gun drills. They get nothing for what they are known for.

Also, more elves? Don't we have enough?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Also, more elves? Don't we have enough?

There are never enough elves...at least according to WotC. Partial blue intentional.

[EggKookoo]

The Hozee and Plasmoids are knock off Yazarians and Draslites from Star Frontiers. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

I was coming here to say just this. I approve!

Also, this makes me think warforged will certainly get re-typed as a construct.

Edit: I noticed the Small creatures have a 30' speed. I expect this to get transplanted over to existing races as well. I approve less.

[Ralanr]

There are never enough elves...at least according to WotC. Partial blue intentional.

Elves, the cockroaches of the multiverse.

[Luccan]

I know they just introduced the rabbit folk but if I'm not mistaken one of the big things about Thri-kreen is their ability to jump really well and that's just absent here. Seems off.

Edit: also I can't believe they're doing auto-gnomes. But that does indicate moving in a more open direction with regards to creature type. I wonder if they're going to change warforged.

[Saelethil]

So the Giff are old-timey British military who love guns and explosions, and they get a feature for....melee damage??

Yeah… I think it would be more unique and thematic to make the damage reroll apply to a ranged attack instead of a melee attack.

[Protolisk]

Yeah… I think it would be more unique and thematic to make the damage reroll apply to a ranged attack instead of a melee attack.

Ar that point, let them reroll a 1 on any damage roll, just to add in explosions too. Its barely even that good of a feature to start with.

[RogueJK]

Edit: I noticed the Small creatures have a 30' speed. I expect this to get transplanted over to existing races as well. I approve less.

There have been Small races with 30' speed since Volos was released in 2016 (Goblin/Kobold).

[Ralanr]

There have been Small races with 30' speed since Volos (Goblin/Kobold).

Yeah, and I know I'm not a fan of that. Why make Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes slower for legacy then completely ignore it for other small races? Heck, dwarves are medium!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Elves, the cockroaches of the multiverse.

This, but not blue.

[SociopathFriend]

I am 110% behind a playable Ooze race. I don't care if it's useless or not- lemme at it! I will have a Healslime (https://dragonquest.fandom.com/wiki/Healslime#:~:text=The%20healslime%20(Hoimi%20Slime %20in,that%20can%20heal%20its%20allies.) or die trying.

[Warder]

Very glad that the giff aren't described as anthropomorphic hippos but as folk with hippo-like features. I really like the giff from the Spelljammer novels (Herphan Gomja), and there they were never described as straight up hippofolk. In fact, the cover art for Beyond the Moons features Gomja in the background and I much prefer that look than the ridiculous monocle-clad hippofolk seen in other art.

As for the rest, meh. Very uninspired features as usual.

[Unoriginal]

Very glad that the giff aren't described as anthropomorphic hippos but as folk with hippo-like features. I really like the giff from the Spelljammer novels (Herphan Gomja), and there they were never described as straight up hippofolk. In fact, the cover art for Beyond the Moons features Gomja in the background and I much prefer that look than the ridiculous monocle-clad hippofolk seen in other art.

Have you seen their art in the Mordenkainen's?

[Warder]

Have you seen their art in the Mordenkainen's?

I have. :(

[HX2GPX]

Do hadozee have a glide dash of sorts? Can't they just jump 5ft in the air and then glide 25 ft? If so, that seems pretty strong

Comboing this with the jump spell, and a high strength character could jump 30ft into the air then glide 150 feet. All with just the move action

[jaappleton]

Do hadozee have a glide dash of sorts? Can't they just jump 5ft in the air and then glide 25 ft? If so, that seems pretty strong

Not very different from one option the Simic Hybrid gets in one of the MtG setting books.

[Dork_Forge]

The fact that the tagline for Giff describes them as creatures of impressive size and they get stuck with the new copy-paste size nonsense that all other races do highlights the problem with this change.

[Nidgit]

Can't WotC think of another ability name besides Radiant Soul? This is the third completely different ability with that name!

Not to mention that Astral Elves are some definite powercreep.

I'd drop autognomes and plasmoids down to 25 foot speed because it just makes more sense. Both are a bit strong but not offensively so, unlike the the Thri-Kreen.

[nickl_2000]

Can't WotC think of another ability name besides Radiant Soul? This is the third completely different ability with that name!

Not to mention that Astral Elves are some definite powercreep.

I'd drop autognomes and plasmoids down to 25 foot speed because it just makes more sense. Both are a bit strong but not offensively so, unlike the the Thri-Kreen.

Ironically, if you have Radiant Soul from this racial ability you don't get either of the other two, even if you should get it as a class ability

[Dork_Forge]

Ironically, if you have Radiant Soul from this racial ability you don't get either of the other two, even if you should get it as a class ability

Why not? Is this some core rules interaction?

[Millstone85]

The fact that the tagline for Giff describes them as creatures of impressive size and they get stuck with the new copy-paste size nonsense that all other races do highlights the problem with this change.They are the only race to get "You are Medium" instead of "You are Medium or Small".

Edit: Actually, astral elves are also Medium only, and autognomes are Small only.

[nickl_2000]

Why not? Is this some core rules interaction?

Yup, it's in the core rules that when you have 2 features with the same name, you only get the abilities of the first one.

The most common examples are Channel Divinities from a Paladin/Cleric or the Unarmored Defense from a Barbarian/Rogue

[Ralanr]

Yup, it's in the core rules that when you have 2 features with the same name, you only get the abilities of the first one.

The most common examples are Channel Divinities from a Paladin/Cleric or the Unarmored Defense from a Barbarian/Rogue

That. Is. Hilarious.

WOTC should really change the name then lol.

[Wildstag]

They are the only race to get "You are Medium" instead of "You are Medium or Small".

Edit: Actually, astral elves are also Medium only, and autognomes are Small only.

The Astral Elves also get "Medium only", which bodes well for the other PHB and previously published races (species) not being affected by this new ruling.

P.S. Ninja'd

[Xervous]

Elves, the cockroaches of the multiverse.

So what does that make green dragons, who deem elves a delicacy?

[HX2GPX]

So what does that make green dragons, who deem elves a delicacy?

Cats
Cats love to play with bugs and dragons love to play with elves

[nickl_2000]

That. Is. Hilarious.

WOTC should really change the name then lol.

Ya probably.

I see it in level 6 Celestial Warlock, Astral Elf, and Protector Aasimar.

[Ralanr]

So what does that make green dragons, who deem elves a delicacy?

In some cultures, insects are a delicacy. You're just too uncivilized to understand.


Cats
Cats love to play with bugs and dragons love to play with elves

Also this.

[RogueJK]

Yup, it's in the core rules that when you have 2 features with the same name, you only get the abilities of the first one.

The most common examples are Channel Divinities from a Paladin/Cleric or the Unarmored Defense from a Barbarian/Rogue


Where is that in the Core Rules?

There's a rule that says magical effects with the same name don't stack (like from multiple castings of the same spell, or multiple magic items).

And there's a section under Multiclassing that states specific rules for Channel Divinity uses per day and Unarmored Defense in particular not being gained multiple times. (Along with Extra Attack.)

But I'm not seeing a blanket statement that says you can't have two features with the same name, period. (Especially since we're talking about a Racial feature and a Class feature.)


If that were a rule, a character who gets the Spellcasting feature from one class, and then multiclasses into another spellcasting class, wouldn't get the Spellcasting feature from their second class.

[Dork_Forge]

They are the only race to get "You are Medium" instead of "You are Medium or Small".

Edit: Actually, astral elves are also Medium only, and autognomes are Small only.

I was referring to the text that states they fall into the same height and weight range as humans.


Yup, it's in the core rules that when you have 2 features with the same name, you only get the abilities of the first one.

The most common examples are Channel Divinities from a Paladin/Cleric or the Unarmored Defense from a Barbarian/Rogue

I don't think that's accurate, if that were true then a Halfling could never take the Lucky feat. I think what you're thinking of is that a creature cannot benefit from two things with the same proper name at the same time. But that wouldn't happen here, if you're down, you don't care about resistance to radiant or bonuses to damage and if you're up you don't care about anything to do with a Death Save.

I can also only find one other example of that name.

[nickl_2000]

Where is that in the Core Rules?

There's a rule that says magical effects with the same name don't stack (like from multiple castings of the same spell, or multiple magic items).

And there's a section under Multiclassing that states specific rules for Channel Divinity uses per day and Unarmored Defense in particular not being gained multiple times. (Along with Extra Attack.)

But I'm not seeing a blanket statement that says you can't have two features with the same name, period.


If that were a rule, a character who gets the Spellcasting feature from one class, and then multiclasses into another spellcasting class, wouldn't get the Spellcasting feature from their second class.

Huh, maybe I conflated the magical effect with the specific rules for Channel Divinity, Unarmored Defense, and Extra attack.

[Millstone85]

I was referring to the text that states they fall into the same height and weight range as humans.Yes, sorry, I think I had a brain fart there.

[RogueJK]

I can also only find one other example of that name.

Astral Elf (racial death save healing ability)
Protector Aasimar (racial transformation/flying ability)
Celestial Warlock (class fire/radiant spell damage boost ability)

[Dork_Forge]

Astral Elf (racial cantrip ability)
Protector Aasimar (racial transformation/flying ability)
Celestial Warlock (class fire/radiant damage boost ability)

Ah it was the Aasimar I was missing! I forgot those were named per subrace, thanks

[Dark.Revenant]

I'm ALWAYS on the team of 'Let the players do it', 'boost the players level of power', etc because the DM can do a billion different things to compensate, to offset whatever players might do.

Even I think that is pretty garbage, and it should not make it into print.

When combined with all those other racial traits? Yeah, that's probably too strong. But let's not go overboard: it's not like TWF is an optimal fighting style, especially if you're trying to be a spellcaster. On the whole, Thri-kreen is a bit too strong (especially the telepathy) but those traits don't have a *ton* of synergy.

I've made a four-armed race before, and even with four fully-functioning arms (yes, even PAM + GWM + shield is valid), the race is essentially just +2 AC and disadvantage on Wisdom saving throws. 2 AC is a lot, but I feel a race can be balanced around those extra limbs.


Yeah the Thri-Keen secondary arms is just sort of open to abuse. Though the worst I thought of was using TWF to have a heavy weapon in your main hands, and another non heavy in your primary.

TWF only works with light one-handed weapons (remove the light restriction, but not the one-handed restriction, for Dual Wielder users). On top of that, you can't use the secondary arms to help wield versatile or two-handed weapons, since those aren't light.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Cats
Cats love to play with bugs and dragons love to play with elves

It's actually a headcanon of mine that cats ARE dragons, shape shifted to better torment and rule over men, while getting cute points.

And I'm not just talking about D&D.

[Cicciograna]

Is it cats that are dragons...or dragons that are cats?

[Saelethil]

Ar that point, let them reroll a 1 on any damage roll, just to add in explosions too. Its barely even that good of a feature to start with.

Seems pretty reasonable. My only concern would be with AOEs but a single reroll isn't going to change that much.


...I'd drop autognomes and plasmoids down to 25 foot speed because it just makes more sense. Both are a bit strong but not offensively so, unlike the the Thri-Kreen.

I would rather they drop the Plasmoid down to 15 or 20 and give them some kind of damage reduction ability, "Once per round, when you take non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, you can reduce the damage by an amount equal to your PB." or "Any time you take non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, you can reduce the damage by 1. This increases to 2 at 5th level." Those were just off the cuff ideas that I am certain are unbalanced but a team of game designers should be able to come up with something that would make a lot more sense than an Ooze having a 30' speed.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, sorry, I think I had a brain fart there.

To just point out another problem with this disjointed design methodology:

Autognomes are built in their creator's image. Their creators are Rock Gnomes.

Rock Gnomes and Humans are distinctly separated by 2 feet and many pounds, yet their creations and meant to be bigger?

I know that they point to the tables, where you can choose the Gnome entry, but you shouldn't have to consult a random table in a different book to know how big your character is.

And yes, this is literally because they turned those aspects of a character into copy and paste boiler plate text. Bah.

[EggKookoo]

There have been Small races with 30' speed since Volos was released in 2016 (Goblin/Kobold).

My (slight) disapproval was based on the assumption that they'd retrofit older races to 30'. I'm torn. I like the flavor of smaller races having slower movement, but it's also a hassle. So maybe I'll just learn to stop worrying and love 30 feet.

Edit: Not sure if this has been brought up, but why introduce the Fey type but not make elves Fey?

[RogueJK]

Edit: Not sure if this has been brought up, but why introduce the Fey type but not make elves Fey?

Elves are descended from Fey, back in their ancient pre-Elf ancestry, but as a race are not Fey.

Eladrin, on the other hand, ought to have the Fey subtype for their race. They represent the descendants of the shared proto-elven ancestor that continued to live in the Feywild and remained Fey. (I mean, c'mon... Eladrin are even classified as Fey in their statblocks from MToF. So an Eladrin NPC is Fey, but an Eladrin PC is not?)

[Luccan]

Edit: Not sure if this has been brought up, but why introduce the Fey type but not make elves Fey?

D&D elves aren't Fey and never really have been. Eladrin are about the closest we've gotten

[GooeyChewie]

The fact that the tagline for Giff describes them as creatures of impressive size and they get stuck with the new copy-paste size nonsense that all other races do highlights the problem with this change.

Quoted for truth!

Damage Dealer rewards you for rolling more dice (making rolling a 1 more likely) but does not play particularly well with Great Weapon Fighting since using GWF stops you from doing additional rerolls. Sneak Attack fits the bill. And Hippo Build is probably more valuable for covering low Strength than it is for a high-Strength character who doesn't need the boost as much. I was excited for Giff because I wanted to play somebody of literally hippopotamic proportions, but mechanically I think they're best at being Rogues.

[Ralanr]

It's actually a headcanon of mine that cats ARE dragons, shape shifted to better torment and rule over men, while getting cute points.

And I'm not just talking about D&D.

So I'm allergic to dragons? Dang.


D&D elves aren't Fey and never really have been. Eladrin are about the closest we've gotten

I've always seen elves as the fey version of monkey's evolving. But the fact that they aren't fey can make it all confusing.

[EggKookoo]

D&D elves aren't Fey and never really have been. Eladrin are about the closest we've gotten

They've never literally been Fey because up until now PC races were all Humanoid. Elves are definitely Fey-ish creatures in 5e, given their Fey Ancestry feature.

Warforged are in a similar boat. They're kind of constructs and even have features related to that, but they're Humanoid because all PC races are Humanoid.

But now they're allowing Construct and Fey PC race Types. I hope that means Elves become Fey (this UA notwithstanding) and Warforged become Constructs.

[stoutstien]

They've never literally been Fey because up until now PC races were all Humanoid. Elves are definitely Fey-ish creatures in 5e, given their Fey Ancestry feature.

Warforged are in a similar boat. They're kind of constructs and even have features related to that, but they're Humanoid because all PC races are Humanoid.

But now they're allowing Construct and Fey PC race Types. I hope that means Elves become Fey (this UA notwithstanding) and Warforged become Constructs.

I'm all for moving towards more options for type for player characters. They just need to make sure they address it in the rest of the game mechanics. I know they want to stay away from negative modifiers and features but small ones are very good for this. The mechagnome limit on which spells or features can actually heal them is a good example of this. Would you play a race that had charm and fear immunity if that also meant spells like bless don't work on you? It would actually make for some interesting choices.

[strangebloke]

Well if there's one thing the plasmoid proves, its that WotC's desire to turn our adventurers into 5x5x5 adventuring cubes is clearer than ever.

[Ralanr]

Well if there's one thing the plasmoid proves, its that WotC's desire to turn our adventurers into 5x5x5 adventuring cubes is clearer than ever.

Forum Meta.

[EggKookoo]

I'm all for moving towards more options for type for player characters. They just need to make sure they address it in the rest of the game mechanics. I know they want to stay away from negative modifiers and features but small ones are very good for this. The mechagnome limit on which spells or features can actually heal them is a good example of this. Would you play a race that had charm and fear immunity if that also meant spells like bless don't work on you? It would actually make for some interesting choices.

Don't adamantine weapons auto-crit on constructs?

[RogueJK]

Don't adamantine weapons auto-crit on constructs?

They auto-crit on objects, not Constructs.

[stoutstien]

Don't adamantine weapons auto-crit on constructs?

Only if they are also objects.
*Ninjaed**

[EggKookoo]

Ok, right, thanks. I thought Constructs had some special vulnerability somewhere...

[Brookshw]

Elves, the cockroaches of the multiverse.

I thought that was dragons (and meteor monsters if this is Spelljammer)

[GooeyChewie]

Ok, right, thanks. I thought Constructs had some special vulnerability somewhere...

A lot of healing spells don't work on constructs. But the AutoGnome has a special rule which overrides that for cure wounds, healing word and spare the dying.

[Man_Over_Game]

Where is that in the Core Rules?

There's a rule that says magical effects with the same name don't stack (like from multiple castings of the same spell, or multiple magic items).

And there's a section under Multiclassing that states specific rules for Channel Divinity uses per day and Unarmored Defense in particular not being gained multiple times. (Along with Extra Attack.)

But I'm not seeing a blanket statement that says you can't have two features with the same name, period. (Especially since we're talking about a Racial feature and a Class feature.)


If that were a rule, a character who gets the Spellcasting feature from one class, and then multiclasses into another spellcasting class, wouldn't get the Spellcasting feature from their second class.

DMG p.252, and it's very arbitrary.

It affects Cleric/Paladin and Monk/Barbarian, but apparently not Soulknife Rogue/PsiWarrior Fighter (http://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25212878&postcount=185) (who get two different dice pools to use with their respective subclass features, despite the features having the same name and overall mechanics).

So who can friggin' say.

Actually, I think I realized something.

In every instance where having two features of the same name results in the player losing something, it's mentioned directly in the multiclass section of the PHB. Anything that isn't explicitly mentioned there ignores the rule on DMG 252.

There isn't a rule about Psionic Energy Dice in the multiclass section, so any class with that feature gets it (which specifies that the dice from that subclass can use the abilities listed in the same subclass).

In the instance where two game features would have the same name, you'd get both unless they'd otherwise duplicate the same effect (like having two different spells of the same name cast on a player), and any other exception (like Channel Divinity or Unarmored Defense) is explicitly mentioned.

It's pretty stupid, but at least it's consistent enough for players to figure it out from there (assuming they knew about the exceptions listed in the MC section).

[Phhase]

Astral elf is kinda crazy with that omni-proficiency. Elves. Again. Yay. Did they really have no other options for an astral race? What about Buomman? Though I doubt anyone remembers those, they were a thing.

I am once again irritated and disappointed that an explicit construct race (this time with partial resistance to healing magic even!) is not immune to poison. Autognomes just feel like the UA Warforged again, but less interesting.

Giff exist I guess.

Hadozee...I really don't know if any of those features are good at all, but I look forward to people returning to monke.

Now plasmoid is interesting. This is the kind of creativity I like. Some neat grappling options, two resistances, and the underrated ability to flow through any plumbing. Good luck keeping this guy out of anywhere that isn't hermetically sealed.

Thri-kreen is ok. Personally, I'm less worried about the arms than everyone else. I've been playing a homebrew Thri-kreen with four arms for a while and it really hasn't been that bad. Then again I'm not a huge optimizer, but whatever, I think more flexibility is a fun and interesting kind of power. I'm less convinced about the chameleon carapace. RAW it's actually permanent with no action upkeep until you move to a different kind of terrain, so pretty decent. Except it doesn't let you hide without cover, so it kind of misses the scratch on the chameleon itch for me. And it kinda seems unfitting for Thri-Kreen too, they really should've gotten Standing Leap instead, like the Grung did, it's a much more iconic ability for them.

The Telepathy is quite good though, very permissive.

All in all, a few good things, but rather disappointing on the whole. And outside of the astral elves, none of these races really feel...extraplanar to me. I know there's a pedigree from previous versions and established lore but...are these the best representatives? I'm probably going to end up making my own extraplanar race package.

[Ralanr]

Astral elf is kinda crazy with that omni-proficiency. Elves. Again. Yay. Did they really have no other options for an astral race? What about Buomman? Though I doubt anyone remembers those, they were a thing.



Shardmind from 4e come to mind. While their lore is stuck in 4e points of light, they'd work incredibly well in SpellJammer for a revamp.

[Lavaeolus]

First thoughts: the amoeba race was definitely the one that immediately grabbed my eye, concept-wise. I'm curious if they'll make the final cut. Astral elves, meanwhile, I feel they should probably be an elf subrace? Is it just to get around the pre-Tasha's race rules, or is it just part of the standalone presentation here? Anyway, I admit that as they stand I'm not as interested them compared to the rest; plenty of elf subraces already, after all.

The giff's concept is pretty tied to Spelljammer, and I don't know if this is intended to be more open for more standard D&D campaigns? But the fluff and mechanics right now don't really go beyond them being hippo-people, which I think is a bit of a waste. The giff can be fun: gunpowder-loving platoons-for-hire wandering the galaxy, dressed in gaudy military uniforms. Right now the mechanics kind of go against that, since they're just getting melee buffs.

Don't know how exactly I'd change them. I'd probably want to give them some sort of default proficiency with firearms, much like Artificers. I know blackpowder weapons are a thing some people prefer to keep out of their campaigns, but I'd be willing to give giff a bit more flavour at the cost of making them unsuitable for some campaigns (at least without refluffing).

[SharkForce]

from my perspective, the proper way to abuse thri-kreens is not heavy weapons at all. it is a ranged build. heavy crossbow in a primary and secondary, shield in another primary, hand crossbow (which is a light weapon) in a secondary (with the same secondary that is used to reload the heavy crossbow being used to reload the hand crossbow; letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand doesn't cost any actions). sharpshooter and crossbow expert are to be used with this, of course.

because after all, who *wasn't* thinking "we should make the most powerful ranged builds even better", right?

[Ralanr]

from my perspective, the proper way to abuse thri-kreens is not heavy weapons at all. it is a ranged build. heavy crossbow in a primary and secondary, shield in another primary, hand crossbow (which is a light weapon) in a secondary (with the same secondary that is used to reload the heavy crossbow being used to reload the hand crossbow; letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand doesn't cost any actions). sharpshooter and crossbow expert are to be used with this, of course.

because after all, who *wasn't* thinking "we should make the most powerful ranged builds even better", right?

Can you hold a heavy crossbow in one hand?

[Dark.Revenant]

heavy crossbow in a primary and secondary

This doesn't work. You'd be wielding the weapon in both of those hands, and the secondary one can't wield non-light weapons.

[Dork_Forge]

DMG p.252, and it's very arbitrary.

It affects Cleric/Paladin and Monk/Barbarian, but apparently not Soulknife Rogue/PsiWarrior Fighter (http://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25212878&postcount=185) (who get two different dice pools to use with their respective subclass features, despite the features having the same name and overall mechanics).

So who can friggin' say.

Actually, I think I realized something.

In every instance where having two features of the same name results in the player losing something, it's mentioned directly in the multiclass section of the PHB. Anything that isn't explicitly mentioned there ignores the rule on DMG 252.

There isn't a rule about Psionic Energy Dice in the multiclass section, so any class with that feature gets it (which specifies that the dice from that subclass can use the abilities listed in the same subclass).

In the instance where two game features would have the same name, you'd get both unless they'd otherwise duplicate the same effect (like having two different spells of the same name cast on a player), and any other exception (like Channel Divinity or Unarmored Defense) is explicitly mentioned.

It's pretty stupid, but at least it's consistent enough for players to figure it out from there (assuming they knew about the exceptions listed in the MC section).

What page are you referring to? 252 of my DMG is about chases and options rules for grids and minis.

[GooeyChewie]

This doesn't work. You'd be wielding the weapon in both of those hands, and the secondary one can't wield non-light weapons.

On the one hand, it's good that they can't wield both a heavy crossbow and a hand crossbow at the same time. On the other hand, they can still wield two hand crossbows and a shield while maintaining a free primary hand. On the third hand, I usually don't allow unearthed arcana in my games unless the player has run the concept by me and I've confirmed that it won't be too out of place with everything, so I'll probably just disallow this build and hope the race doesn't see print in a book. On the fourth hand... wait, fourth hand? Oh, no, I think I may be a Thri-keen!

[Ralanr]

On the one hand, it's good that they can't wield both a heavy crossbow and a hand crossbow at the same time. On the other hand, they can still wield two hand crossbows and a shield while maintaining a free primary hand. On the third hand, I usually don't allow unearthed arcana in my games unless the player has run the concept by me and I've confirmed that it won't be too out of place with everything, so I'll probably just disallow this build and hope the race doesn't see print in a book. On the fourth hand... wait, fourth hand? Oh, no, I think I may be a Thri-keen!

No I’m pretty sure they could wield both.

Heavy in the primary hands. Hand crossbow in one secondary hand. Free hand to reload.

[Zevox]

Am I the only one that saw Thri-Kreen and immediately squealed "Darksun?!" in self delusion?
I know nothing about Dark Sun, but my eyebrows did raise at that just from knowing their association with Psionics in 3.5E, since I'm still (probably vainly) hoping for a proper Psionics system and Psion class to someday be added to 5E.

But anyway, general thoughts:

Astral Elves: Kind of a bland, minor new variant of Elf. Nothing wrong with it, but nothing about it interests me.
Autognomes: I dislike anything that smacks of robots in my D&D on principle, so I'll just ignore this one, as I'd never use it.
Giff: Eh, also bland to me - just another big, strong animal-person race. If I want that, I'll probably go for Minotaurs or Leonin, personally.
Hadozee: I guess their features are kind of neat mechanically (though it does feel like their feature list is a bit short compared to other races). Not jumping out to me as something I'm that interested in, but not bad.
Plasmoids: Oddly actually kind of interesting to me. It's bizarre, but the concept of a shape-shifter without a defined form that physically works more like an amoeba actually does sound kind of fun to have around for some reason.
Thri-Kreen: I like them. Inability to speak normally but with natural telepathy to make up for that is nice, and the secondary arms' limitations eliminate the most obvious, worst possible abuses of them (two-handed weapon + shield, dual-wielding two two-handed weapons), which are about the only ones I think I'd object to personally. I actually kind of wish that feature would let them get an additional attack out of the two-weapon fighting bonus action if they wield 3+ weapons, but I do get that at low levels that'd be quite powerful. Chameleon Carapace on top of that is just gravy, too. Definitely my favorite part of the UA.

[Yakmala]

Initial thoughts:

Astral Elf: I just created a new Stars Druid as a Star Elf (re-skinned High Elf with Feylost Background) but will definitely switch to Astral Elf if/when I can. Also, Astral Elf Artificer that automatically gets expertise in whatever skills they choose each day after resting.

Giff: Giff without built in firearms proficiency makes me sad.

Hadozze: Don't know much about this race, but they have my favorite ability from my favorite Rogue subclass, Fast Hands, as a racial ability! Combine this with the Healer feat and a Hadozzee of any class makes for a great field medic.

Plasmoid: Was not expecting this, but perhaps I can finally, with a bit of re-skinning, play as a Flumph.

Thri-Kreen: WotC is going to need to get very specific about what you can and cannot do with your extra set of arms. Dual Wielding with a shield seems obvious, but what if you are Dual Wielding with light weapons in all four hands? Any benefits? Using GWM with primary hands while holding a wand and/or arcane focus in the smaller hands means Warcaster is not really needed. You could also, were you so inclined, Grab Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert, have a longbow or heavy crossbow in primary hands while getting bonus action attacks with a hand crossbow in other hands. Or hold a shield while operating a hand crossbow without having to be an Artificer.

[Millstone85]

What page are you referring to? 252 of my DMG is about chases and options rules for grids and minis.I think they are referring to this:
Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section:
Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the “Combining Magical Effects” section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.
However, while I could maybe possibly see an aasimar's Radiant Soul as a game effect that the character targets themself with, I would not say the same about a celeslock's Radiant Soul.

[Man_Over_Game]

What page are you referring to? 252 of my DMG is about chases and options rules for grids and minis.

It was added in errata: https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/DMG-Errata.pdf

Just a reminder, though, it appears to not actually effect features a character would get. The rules regarding how getting duplicate features interact is listed in the Multiclass section, and it's specified for each feature (Unarmored Defense, Channel Divinity).

So, to put simply, the names of features don't matter (and don't interfere with each other) unless the Multiclass section says otherwise.

The only times DMG 252 would be relevant for the sake of features was if you were using a feature on a target that's already affected by the same feature from another character (e.g. Hexblade's Curse), in which case the strongest effect is applied (however the DM decides to determine that).


I know that's kinda contrary to what the errata'd section says, but it's consistent with every ruling with every instance where two features have the same name on the same character (such as Psionic Dice).

[Dark.Revenant]

By RAW...


Dual Wielding with a shield seems obvious
Indeed. It's +2 AC, although if you use Dual Wielder, your off-hand attack will be 1d6 instead of 1d8 (-1 DPR). Maybe TWF is competitive if you're Thri-Kreen...


Dual Wielding with light weapons in all four hands? Any benefits?
Nope.


Using GWM with primary hands while holding a wand and/or arcane focus in the smaller hands means Warcaster is not really needed.
Indeed.


You could [grab] Crossbow Expert, have a [...] heavy crossbow in primary hands while getting bonus action attacks with a hand crossbow in other hands.
Indeed. It's an increase from 1d6 to 1d10 for your main attacks, an increase of probably about 3 DPR—2 DPR if using Sharpshooter.


Or hold a shield while operating a hand crossbow without having to be an Artificer.
Indeed. +2 AC is pretty darn good.

All told, the best case scenario is TWF or CBE. You essentially get +2 AC with few (if any) compromises. When trying to maximize damage, though, you can't really do a whole lot to increase DPR.

[GooeyChewie]

No I’m pretty sure they could wield both.

Heavy in the primary hands. Hand crossbow in one secondary hand. Free hand to reload.

My apologies, the original build suggestion also included a shield as well. My intent was to say that you can’t do all three at once. You are absolutely right hat you can use both weapons at once.

[Millstone85]

Clearly, we need playable spellweavers.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-G2Nk6u88Cr8/U62h9Woe3OI/AAAAAAAABRc/ZmVa1e8EdRw/s1600/96spellweave4e.jpg

These guys got hands for days! Almost of full week each!

[Kane0]

Astral Elf, Autognome: functional if not particularly interesting
Giff: weak and pidgeonholed
Hadozee: neat way to get a pseudo-flying race if your DM doesnt allow aarakocra/winged tiefling, otherwise not much going for it other than stealing the thief 3 feature
Plasmoid: im legitimately interested
Thri-kreen: a grab-bag of potent abilities, fairly interesting but likely too strong.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Thrikreen could be worse for those worrying over power. Let's do a 5e conversion of the original Kreen in Darksun 2e.

Natural Armor: 15+Dex, no regular armor allowed
Non-Sleeping: Do not Sleep and are immune to such affects.
Multiarmed: When wielding weapons limited like normal creatures, but unarmed they get 4 1d4 Claw attacks per round.
Bite: In addition to their regular weapon attacks or multiattack they gain a bite for 1d4 Piercing with an attached Con save or be paralyzed for 1d8 rounds.
Dodge Missile: As a Monk.

All things considered, getting 4 limbs, constant mage armor and Adv on Stealth doesn't seem that bad. :)

[Melphizard]

Well after a read I can safely say this UA has 4 good races, 1 poorly done race, and one holy hell overpowered race. Here are my opinions on such:

Astral Elf: I really love this race and what options it has brought to the table. It comes with a good proficiency, the ability to be whatever class and have your favorite melee weapon, the sickle, or have two more tools as an Artificer, and in addition to all of this gets Astral Fire, providing some neat cantrips. My vision for this would be a silver-haired Astral Monk who acts like Laeral Silverhand.

Autongnome: Coming in strong the autognome has the perk of being a construct, not a humanoid. This makes them immune to a bunch of humanoid-only spells with the main downside being that you might not have a soul and when your allies cast shatter you're gonna be very annoyed. Their actual abilities though are something to see.
- We have armored coating giving what is basically natural +1 studded leather.
- Mechanical nature showing us that for some reason poison affects machines but they don't eat?
- Specialized Design: These guys were made to be Artificers.... or were made by Artificers?
- Built for Success: Generally just a really good thing to have on you since you never know when you just needed 1 more to your saving throw to avoid death
- True Life: This is so thematic and something I'm that they put in here. As a DM I would have already allowed this to a degree but having it come with the race is just a chef's kiss. The downside of it is pretty rough at almost all levels but I'm sure that with creative thinking people will find a way around it.


Giff: Ok man like why did they have to do my hippo lads like this. When I think of a Giff I think of a British Commando hippo with a monocle, a nice military uniform, and a gun. You had one job, give them firearms proficiency!!!!!!!, but unfortunately not. Now let's look at what they did to the gun hippos
- Speed: They can swim so yeah that makes sense but on the other hand it's not in the original stat block so a tad conflicting. Guess Giff get swimming lessons now.
- Damage Dealer: This is a worse version of GWF and even then this basically means if you go for a ranged base Giff, like the gunfighting hippos they are, you get only one ability.
- Hippo Build: Alright so it's a better powerful build I can get behind that if it wasn't practically the only good ability the Giff got.

(What I would have done) I feel Giff should have gotten abilities closer to their stat block which means:
- Headfirst Charge: Give the Hippos a bonus action charge similar to what orcs get
- Firearms Knowledge: You could just make this Firearm's proficiency with longsword proficiency as well if you truly wanna represent the Giff stat block
- Hippo Build: This is a good ability and would pair well with their ability to charge forward
- Scholarly Mammal: Give them a proficiency in History to pair with their knowledge of military tactics and training.


Hadozee: Flying monkey people. I didn't know they existed till reading this UA but hey I'm down for it especially after seeing what they could do
- Dexterous Feet: So what you're saying is they get the thief ability to bonus action use an object as a racial ability? Sign me the heck up! The possibilities with this are great such as one example; throwing down caltrops as a fighter to trip your enemies.
- Glide: Wait I can move 5 ft horizontally for every 1 ft I descend? So assuming I fall 500ft in a turn then I can glide myself 2500ft in 6 seconds then use a reaction to take no damage after gliding at what is around 300 mph.


Plasmoid: Alrighty well these guys are neat and can possibly be reskinned as flumphs so I can finally have the all-flumph party I dream of. Also, I looked at the art of these Plasmoids and they seem very out of the norm for what I'd consider an adventuring race. That said, they make excellent Glamour Bards. They also are a pretty good race, in my opinion, sporting quite a few good abilities like
- Creature Type: So wait I just get immunity to all type targeting spells? This alone is a really good trait even if it doesn't seem like a trait.
- Amorphous: This ability is sick and I can't wait to see what Plasmoid rogues manage to do with this; but, you have to be wearing nothing so best hope that what's on the other side of that door isn't aggressive.
- Darkvision + Hold Breath: Both very good and very useful traits to have on you
- Natural Resilience: Poison resistance is great and acid resistance is going to be something you joke about with the water genasi in your party until the fateful days you get to use it.
- Shape Self: This is an awesome ability I haven't had the time to think about the ramifications of due to a certain race I'll mention next. Least to say this is gonna be amazing in RP and in dungeons.


Thri-Kreen: Now my first thought, when I saw Thri-Kreen in here, was "great, now I don't have to do custom race and my DM may let me use this for it!" That was before I saw its abilities. I'm never going to be allowed to use this. This either needs to be nerfed or it may be the next Yuan-Ti in terms of power level. So let's see what the race I most wanted to play as can do
- Creature Type: Being a Monstrosity, just like with a Plasmoid, means I'm immune to all type targeting spells which is a really powerful trait just on its own.
- Chameleon Carapace: Free +1 Studded Leather and advantage on stealth checks. This is an incredibly good ability and if I ever see a DM allow this I'll be interested to see how they sneak about.

- Secondary Arms: When I began reading Thri-Kreen I knew there had to be an ability to account for their extra arms; how could there not be? What this means though is kind of insane. Here are a few examples
1. Shield, Weapon, Wand (or staff), Freehand: With this setup on let's say a Hexblade, you can have a shield for AC, a weapon for attacking or opportunity attacks, a wand or staff to blast spells out of, and a free hand to do material components. As Thri-Kreen you get what is the war caster feat for free.

2. (Magic Item Heavy) Staff of Power, Staff of the Magi, Wand of X, Freehand: This is what I expect to see if this ability stays as is and ever gets put into Adventurer's League. Dual-wielding magical staves or any buff sticks while still being able to cast spells and have all their benefits is what truly is gonna be the meta I suspect.

3. Shield, weapon, weapon (Light), Something else: Dual-wielding Thri-Kreens are gonna be so sick! One question to ask is whether or not the dual-wielding fighting style applies to your secondary hands but I suspect not. Even so, you get +2 AC from the shield, +1 from dual-wielding, and you get to make a bunch of attacks per round. Prepare to become General Grievous
https://c.tenor.com/vutjAlaQE7UAAAAM/general-grievous-utapau.gif

4. Heavy Crossbow, Hand Crossbow, Freehand: I'm sure somebody has already said this but being able to rapid-fire multiple crossbows with no penalty should take the cake as one of the coolest things you can do with this ability.

Well as you can see there's a lot to do with your Secondary Arms but with that, the Thri-Kreen has no more abilities and can be safely put up there as one of the best..... what? ..... what do you mean there's another ability they already have..... no.....

- Sleepless Revitalization: Alright so Thri-Kreen also can keep watch expertly as they don't need to sleep. This is really useful to have in campaigns where the DM ambushes you during rests.

Ok so with that final good ability out of the way I can safely say Thri-Kreen are the best.... no..... stop.... they already have 4 good traits and an extremely powerful creature type.... what more could they...

- Thri-kreen Telepathy: Ok this is just ungodly powerful. You can telepathically link with an INFINITE number of CREATURES within 120ft and they can understand you as long as they know ONE LANAGUAGE!!!!!! Who proofread this? How many people proofread this? This is amazing telepathy so you can talk plans with the party without being spied on and in addition, you can be an emissary to any race that can speak and in addition, you can do this from a considerable distance! This trait seems overshadowed by Secondary Arms but I think this is just as powerful if not more so. In combat Secondary Arms is op but out of combat, this trait may be one of the most powerful abilities and even makes the telepathic feat look like pre-school telepathy.


Ok, are we done? No more extra abilities? Yes? phew! So this concludes my review of all the new UA races. There are some which I really like and think would bring a lot to a party to have; there is one which I think are overpowered beyond belief and though I have a bias toward them in particular I gotta say need to be nerfed; Then there is Giff which got made the Four Elements monk of races. Hope this helps any DMs to know what they need to look out for when their player asks about letting them use one lesser-known cool UA race they found.

[EggKookoo]

Would you play a race that had charm and fear immunity if that also meant spells like bless don't work on you? It would actually make for some interesting choices.

I suspect the upcoming 2024 revision will revamp a number of spells and features to make them work across these different Types. For example, I wouldn't be surprised to see hold person and hold monster combined into a single hold creature, and so forth.

[P. G. Macer]

To the people wondering why the Giff don’t get firearms proficiency, that’s because that would be a cultural trait, and WotC said that they’re no longer doing cultural racial traits because… politics… let’s leave it at that.

On topic and hopefully well within the forum rules, the lack of cultural traits and predefined ASIs/heights/weights/lifespans (except the Astral Elf) makes a lot of these races really bland, especially the Giff and Hadozee. WotC needs to step up their game if they want to prove their naysayers wrong about new racial changes, and right now they’re proving them right; these often feel more like skins in a video game than races in a TTRPG.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

A few points to discuss on the Thri-kreen's power level.

I've seen multiple statements that the multi arms removes need for Warcaster.

I've always seen Warcaster as Adv on Concentration checks and AoO Cantrips. With a fun ribbon that my sword is my caster focus (Because honestly, it's a ribbon for most cases).

So why is it that the Kreen essentially getting that ribbon sort of is treated as replacing the whole feat?

For the Telepathy, I admit that Communication to all can be strong. But we have several races, classes and a feat that give versions of Telepathy and all of them have some major strengths in various directions. I'm unsure what a very limited range Multi talk really does. (I get it means you can communicate with a group quietly, but otherwise...)

[Kane0]

Thri-kreen Fey Ranger was my first thought.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Thri-kreen Fey Ranger was my first thought.

I'm more intrigued by the RP possibilities of this than the cool factor.

Athasian Kreen find Elves to be a delicacy as I recall. Do they find all Fey Delicacies or is it that Athasian Elves are an offshoot of Halfling?

If it's that Fey taste good, how did this kreen get their powers?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't see that anyone's mentioned the most controversial part of the UA:


"The giff are split into two camps concerning how their name is pronounced. Half of them say it with a hard g, half with a soft g. Disagreements over the correct pronunciation often blossom into hard feelings, loud arguments, and headbutting contests, but rarely escalate beyond that."

[Ralanr]

I don't see that anyone's mentioned the most controversial part of the UA:


To quote Reddit:

God himself could come down from heaven and tell me it's pronounced "jif" and I'd just say "sure thing, whatever you say Jod " and then walk backwards into hell.

[SharkForce]

I'm more intrigued by the RP possibilities of this than the cool factor.

Athasian Kreen find Elves to be a delicacy as I recall. Do they find all Fey Delicacies or is it that Athasian Elves are an offshoot of Halfling?

If it's that Fey taste good, how did this kreen get their powers?

common misconception. kreen don't eat elves because they're more tasty.

athasian elves release a scent when frightened that makes kreen hungry. this has created a reputation for kreen preferring to eat elves, which in turn commonly causes elves to be frightened around kreen...

[kingcheesepants]

No playable flumphs yet, huh?

I demand a race that moves by farting!

THIS IS INTENTIONALLY NOT IN BLUE TEXT GIVE US WHAT WE WANT WOTC

Heartily seconded

[Millstone85]

To quote Reddit:

God himself could come down from heaven and tell me it's pronounced "jif" and I'd just say "sure thing, whatever you say Jod " and then walk backwards into hell.But instead of Hell, you find yourself in Siggle (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR8s1Ai6_xM&t=20s) with the other weirdos. :smallbiggrin:

[Pixel_Kitsune]

common misconception. kreen don't eat elves because they're more tasty.

athasian elves release a scent when frightened that makes kreen hungry. this has created a reputation for kreen preferring to eat elves, which in turn commonly causes elves to be frightened around kreen...

Interesting, did not know that.

So I guess to rephrase the question, is it the Fey nature that gives off that Scent, or whatever weird evolutionary process brought a halfling to be 6' tall and elf like?

And if it's the Fey Nature, that still makes a Kreen Fey Wanderer interesting.

[SharkForce]

Interesting, did not know that.

So I guess to rephrase the question, is it the Fey nature that gives off that Scent, or whatever weird evolutionary process brought a halfling to be 6' tall and elf like?

And if it's the Fey Nature, that still makes a Kreen Fey Wanderer interesting.

athasian elves are pretty different from other D&D elves, so my guess would be probably not. they certainly don't have the elven pantheon that just about every other official setting has keeping them elfy.

still, you never know.

[Brookshw]

Clearly, we need playable spellweavers.

You're thinking too small (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/Constellate).

[jaappleton]

You're thinking too small (https://spelljammer.fandom.com/wiki/Constellate).

You jest, but the code name for an upcoming product is Constellation.

[Naanomi]

Were Hadozee Spelljammer content? I thought they were introduced in Stormwrack just like the Darfellan was. Interesting addition to 5e either way though.
Around since at least 'Monstrous Compendium Spelljammer Appendix 1' (1990?)

I kind of want to play a... Plasmid Aberrant Mind Sorcerer, take no spells with material components, continually be a blob... carry no equipment... maybe hang out in a party member's oversized waterskin?

[loki_ragnarock]

I have to admit, the Plasmoid is the first non-core race I've been excited about in the entire product line.

EDIT:
That Autognome tacks on yet another ability that breaks bounded accuracy makes me think the product line is ultimately doomed.

[Temperjoke]

See, when I read about the Plasmoids, all I could picture was Chaos, from Sonic the Hedgehog games/shows.

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/monster/images/9/90/Sonicchannel_chaos.png/revision/latest?cb=20121102133204

[ATHATH]

I'm ALWAYS on the team of 'Let the players do it', 'boost the players level of power', etc because the DM can do a billion different things to compensate, to offset whatever players might do.

Even I think that is pretty garbage, and it should not make it into print.
True, but having 4 arms is kind of the primary appeal of playing a thri-kreen, and I'd be incredibly disappointed if those extra arms were made nigh-useless by being burdened with a bajillion restrictions (imagine if they had the same restrictions as plasmoid pseudopods...).

I do like that WotC has actually gotten the guts to try some experimental features here, although the giff being yet another pseudo-large race instead of an actually large one is still a bruh moment.

I like True Life being a way to give Construct characters access to healing outside of a rest, although the person who wrote it seems to have forgotten that Mending has a minute-long casting time. It's also undermined a bit by CW and HW being allowed to affect clockwork gnomes anyway.

[werescythe]

My only issue with the Plasmoid is that it seems that they can't use their psuedopods for unarmed strikes. Personally I think they being able to make unarmed strikes with the psuedopods and maybe having it do Acid damage would be nice.

[Warder]

I feel like this thread partially explains why I am never excited for new races (or new subclasses, etc etc) anymore. Whenever WotC does try something that breaks the mold in some fashion, it is going to be scrutinized by thousands of people, of course. Then when someone finds a way for that new thing to be stronger than the previous norm, what inevitably follows is a huge public outcry that makes WotC withdraw themselves back into their super comfortable safe bubble and replace the new feature with "You learn an additional language" or whatever. Thri-kreen wouldn't be thri-kreen without four arms. If having four arms allows for some very, very particular builds to be stronger than they are - I think that's fine. It's a very niche race already, will we see a flood of thri-kreen crossbow wielders across the D&D community? Will that be worse than the flood of warlock dips since day 1?

I mean I get it, being on the watch for power creep is a noble effort. I always think it needs to be tempered by reality, though.

[stoutstien]

I feel like this thread partially explains why I am never excited for new races (or new subclasses, etc etc) anymore. Whenever WotC does try something that breaks the mold in some fashion, it is going to be scrutinized by thousands of people, of course. Then when someone finds a way for that new thing to be stronger than the previous norm, what inevitably follows is a huge public outcry that makes WotC withdraw themselves back into their super comfortable safe bubble and replace the new feature with "You learn an additional language" or whatever. Thri-kreen wouldn't be thri-kreen without four arms. If having four arms allows for some very, very particular builds to be stronger than they are - I think that's fine. It's a very niche race already, will we see a flood of thri-kreen crossbow wielders across the D&D community? Will that be worse than the flood of warlock dips since day 1?

I mean I get it, being on the watch for power creep is a noble effort. I always think it needs to be tempered by reality, though.

The sim hybrid and loxodon are proof they can do it within the 5e framework. Ive actually seen some well balanced kreen homebrews as well.

They could simply drop DV, the built in AC/camouflage, and give them automatic exhaustion for not eating enough during a day. Nothing wrong with a build defining racial feature as long as there's some reason why someone might not want it other than taste.

[Kuu Lightwing]

I feel like this thread partially explains why I am never excited for new races (or new subclasses, etc etc) anymore. Whenever WotC does try something that breaks the mold in some fashion, it is going to be scrutinized by thousands of people, of course. Then when someone finds a way for that new thing to be stronger than the previous norm, what inevitably follows is a huge public outcry that makes WotC withdraw themselves back into their super comfortable safe bubble and replace the new feature with "You learn an additional language" or whatever. Thri-kreen wouldn't be thri-kreen without four arms. If having four arms allows for some very, very particular builds to be stronger than they are - I think that's fine. It's a very niche race already, will we see a flood of thri-kreen crossbow wielders across the D&D community? Will that be worse than the flood of warlock dips since day 1?

I mean I get it, being on the watch for power creep is a noble effort. I always think it needs to be tempered by reality, though.

I would say that there's also that races normally aren't really that big part of a mechanical budget of a character, so the main benefit of having races is lore and roleplay. But you only need so many species in a game, beyond that it becomes... too many?
Like Thri-kreen is a big part of Dark Sun from what I understand, it's one of the species and cultures there, so it's interesting to see them there where they are integrated in the setting, while just releasing them as "here's a race you can play, go ahead and play them if you want an insectoid character" is a little less exciting.

[jaappleton]

Thri Kreen isn't that big of a deal, with some small adjustments.

I believe its already inferred in the ability, but the smaller arms can't utilize a shield. Just make that clear.
The small arms aren't dextrous enough to reload something.

The whole thing about hands free for components? That's nothing. A greatsword using Paladin can remove a single hand off their weapon, cast, and place the hand back on their weapon. Its not a big deal.

[Millstone85]

I believe its already inferred in the ability, but the smaller arms can't utilize a shield. Just make that clear.How much clearer than "You can’t wield a shield with a secondary arm" do you want them to be?


The small arms aren't dextrous enough to reload something.

The whole thing about hands free for components? That's nothing.If the arms are dextrous enough for somatic and material components, they should be dextrous enough for reloading.

[jaappleton]

How much clearer than "You can’t wield a shield with a secondary arm" do you want them to be?



Full disclosure: I wasn't looking at the UA and I'm just now working on my first cup of coffee when I wrote that.

My bad, that's on me.

-----
EDIT:

You're all missing the biggest part of this UA. Seriously. Its borderline criminal that none of you have noticed it.

If you multiclass Wizard, then an Astral Elf while manifesting Astral Self can utilize the magic of Melf.

Very disappointed in you all that I had to be the one who brought this up.

[EggKookoo]

I mean I get it, being on the watch for power creep is a noble effort. I always think it needs to be tempered by reality, though.

Something to keep in mind is that WotC releases these UA specifically to get feedback about them. They're not presenting them as the final product. So it's valuable to assess them in various ways, including the impact on power creep.

[Millstone85]

If you multiclass Wizard, then an Astral Elf while manifesting Astral Self can utilize the magic of Melf.Now they only need to find a big enough shelf. :smallbiggrin:

[Zevox]

Thri-kreen wouldn't be thri-kreen without four arms. If having four arms allows for some very, very particular builds to be stronger than they are - I think that's fine.
Agreed. They've already ruled out the most obvious potential issues by restricting them to light weapons and no shields in the extra arms. I think what's left is fine. It's mostly better two-weapon fighting stuff, which is great since two-weapon fighting is kind of underwhelming this edition anyway; and being able to keep a hand free for spellcasting more easily is completely fine as well as far as I'm concerned. Hell, short of outright ruling that their extra hands can't be used for somatic components of spellcasting for some reason (which would be very odd and hard to justify in my mind), I don't see how that's avoidable with a four-armed race.

[jaappleton]

Agreed. They've already ruled out the most obvious potential issues by restricting them to light weapons and no shields in the extra arms. I think what's left is fine. It's mostly better two-weapon fighting stuff, which is great since two-weapon fighting is kind of underwhelming this edition anyway; and being able to keep a hand free for spellcasting more easily is completely fine as well as far as I'm concerned. Hell, short of outright ruling that their extra hands can't be used for somatic components of spellcasting for some reason (which would be very odd and hard to justify in my mind), I don't see how that's avoidable with a four-armed race.

In theory, as its presented with all the current information?

This is all correct.

But when you factor in other things which may never actually come to fruition....

Like how I know for a fact that somewhere in the vaults of unreleased, internally playtested 5e material, there is a feat for Three Weapon Fighting

These are things to worry about.

[Zevox]

In theory, as its presented with all the current information?

This is all correct.

But when you factor in other things which may never actually come to fruition....

Like how I know for a fact that somewhere in the vaults of unreleased, internally playtested 5e material, there is a feat for Three Weapon Fighting

These are things to worry about.
:smallconfused: Without seeing what that feat does, I can't say that I know what there would be to worry about. Also, that seems like an odd feat to exist for anything besides a race with extra arms like the Thri-Kreen, since nobody else has a way to use three weapons at once.

[Millstone85]

:smallconfused: Without seeing what that feat does, I can't say that I know what there would be to worry about. Also, that seems like an odd feat to exist for anything besides a race with extra arms like the Thri-Kreen, since nobody else has a way to use three weapons at once.Says you!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fairy-one-piece-tail-universe/images/3/37/Rorono10.jpg

[jaappleton]

Says you!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fairy-one-piece-tail-universe/images/3/37/Rorono10.jpg

This may or may not be the exact inspiration of the feat.

EDIT:

FWIW, I don't believe the Feat was more than a hypothetical internal playtest. What would it break, etc. It IS written down somewhere in the vaults, but I question if it were ever supposed to be legitimately released.

[EggKookoo]

Like how I know for a fact that somewhere in the vaults of unreleased, internally playtested 5e material, there is a feat for Three Weapon Fighting


https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/85784505/ready-for-this-three-weapon-fighting.jpg

[werescythe]

I will also say that I feel underwhelmed by the Hadozee. Maybe if they were given a skill proficiency or two, or a ribbon ability (not that the glide isn't one already) would make it better.

While I don't outright hate the True Life ability for the Autognome, I won't lie and say that it doesn't feel like a cop out (though to be fair there aren't too many spells/abilities that heal constructs... so... yeah:smalleek:).

I don't know much about Giff, but I'll go ahead and say that even if their abilities are fairly powerful, I still feel that like the Hadozee it could use another proficiency or ribbon ability to make it feel better. Now I have heard it mentioned that the Giff appear to be more ranged due to their firearm usage so maybe have Damage Dealer also work for ranged weapons.

And like I already said for the Plasmoid, I feel that they should be able to use their pseudopods from the Shape Self ability, for unarmed strikes and that it should deal acid damage.

[Sigreid]

Says you!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/fairy-one-piece-tail-universe/images/3/37/Rorono10.jpg

Clearly 3 weapon fighting is the province of jugglers!!

[Amnestic]

In addition to adding lots more elves they should also add lots more tieflings.

Right now we've got a lot of different hellish bloodlines for human tieflings, now we need different mortal stock: Orc tiefling, elf tiefling (duh, obviously), halfling tiefling, gnome tiefling, aasimar tiefling (and its counterpart, tiefling aasimar which are different)...the options are many.

[Ralanr]

In addition to adding lots more elves they should also add lots more tieflings.

Right now we've got a lot of different hellish bloodlines for human tieflings, now we need different mortal stock: Orc tiefling, elf tiefling (duh, obviously), halfling tiefling, gnome tiefling, aasimar tiefling (and its counterpart, tiefling aasimar which are different)...the options are many.

Yes because if anything tieflings need, it's more options.

[Millstone85]

we need different mortal stockThat or aasimar, tieflings, genasi and other planetouched could be given something like the Ancestral Legacy trait from Van Richsten's lineages, letting them borrow traits from other races. Or they could straight-up become templates.


aasimar tiefling (and its counterpart, tiefling aasimar which are different)Or the aasiefling, which is the child of a mortal and a half-celestial/half-fiend.

I actually know of a half-celestial/half-fiend, the "concordant killer" from the 3.5 MM4.

https://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n365/b_nebb/ConcordantKiller.png
Art by Nevitan (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?p=5101043#post5101043)

[sandmote]

I don't see it mentioned, but I think its is odd that the Plasmoids get Hold Breath but the Giff don't.


Other thoughts:

Spells that d&d beyond classifies as "healing" that can't heal the Autognome: Heal, Healing Spirit, Mass Cure Wounds, Mass Heal, Mass Healing Word, Power Word Heal, Prayer of Healing Reincarnate. Not an awful list, but it could maybe be expanded to include some of the higher level spells; otherwise the autognome scales very poorly.

While I like racial features to include the proficiency bonus in theory, Built For Success feels too flexible. I significantly prefer the focus that Tireless Precision has. I take issue with Trance Proficiencies for similar reasons.

For the Giff, I guess a "camaraderie" or "follow orders" effect would violate the rule against cultural features. Maybe they could get some sort of bonus healing that is technically biological but can easily be fluffed as drinking a cup of tea?

I'd have slapped Acrobatics proficiency on the Hadozee, at least as a placeholder. Possibly also the Giff, based on some of their lore; the anti-synergy with Hippo Build would keep it weak.

I don't mind non-humanoid races, but I'd rather use some of the weaker types. There's plenty of abjuration spells targeting celestials, elementals, fey, and fiends while these healing restrictions on constructs and undead. Oozes and Monstrosities are two of the more severe buffs. Although I suppose I've written other effects in the same vein (don't know if I've left any in though).

[Arkhios]

Probably brought up already, but I feel this might be a nod back to their previously hinted two classic settings returning: Spelljammer AND DARK SUN! (if I'm not mistaken, thri-kreen was originally indigenous to Athas)

[EggKookoo]

Probably brought up already, but I feel this might be a nod back to their previously hinted two classic settings returning: Spelljammer AND DARK SUN! (if I'm not mistaken, thri-kreen was originally indigenous to Athas)

As well as a couple direct nods to Star Frontiers. It would have been cool to see some vrusk in there, but I guess they're thematically (and somewhat physically) similar to the thri-kreen.

[Bobthewizard]

from my perspective, the proper way to abuse thri-kreens is not heavy weapons at all. it is a ranged build. heavy crossbow in a primary and secondary, shield in another primary, hand crossbow (which is a light weapon) in a secondary (with the same secondary that is used to reload the heavy crossbow being used to reload the hand crossbow; letting go of a two-handed weapon with one hand doesn't cost any actions). sharpshooter and crossbow expert are to be used with this, of course.

because after all, who *wasn't* thinking "we should make the most powerful ranged builds even better", right?


This doesn't work. You'd be wielding the weapon in both of those hands, and the secondary one can't wield non-light weapons.


On the one hand, it's good that they can't wield both a heavy crossbow and a hand crossbow at the same time. On the other hand, they can still wield two hand crossbows and a shield while maintaining a free primary hand.[/COLOR]


No I’m pretty sure they could wield both.

Heavy in the primary hands. Hand crossbow in one secondary hand. Free hand to reload.


By RAW...
Indeed. It's an increase from 1d6 to 1d10 for your main attacks, an increase of probably about 3 DPR—2 DPR if using Sharpshooter.

All told, the best case scenario is TWF or CBE. You essentially get +2 AC with few (if any) compromises. When trying to maximize damage, though, you can't really do a whole lot to increase DPR.

Heavy crossbow and hand crossbow can't be used at the same time. Edit: Heavy crossbow can't be used to trigger the bonus action attack, but can be used for other attacks. Thanks Diplomancer. A heavy crossbow is a two-handed, ranged weapon and so does not qualify to trigger the bonus action attack for two-weapon fighting, crossbow expert, or even dual wielding.

From two weapon fighting "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon"

From crossbow expert "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon"

From dual wielder feat "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light."

Thri-Kreen is still pretty powerful though, allowing a shield and free hand for components while two-weapon fighting or using a hand crossbow.

[diplomancer]

Heavy crossbow and hand crossbow can't be used at the same time. A heavy crossbow is a two-handed, ranged weapon and so does not qualify to trigger the bonus action attack for two-weapon fighting, crossbow expert, or even dual wielding.

From two weapon fighting "When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon"

From crossbow expert "When you use the Attack action and attack with a one handed weapon"

From dual wielder feat "You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one handed melee weapons you are wielding aren’t light."

Thri-Kreen is still pretty powerful though, allowing a shield and free hand for components while two-weapon fighting or using a hand crossbow.

This means that, to activate crossbow expert, at least one of the shots of the attack action would have to come from the hand crossbow (or from some hypothetical 3rd, one-handed, weapon, though this will pretty always be less optimal than just using the hand crossbow, except if magic items are involved)); but nothing stops an 11th level fighter shooting twice with the heavy crossbow, once with the hand crossbow (3 attacks of the Attack action) and then one more time with the hand crossbow as a bonus action.

[Bobthewizard]

This means that, to activate crossbow expert, at least one of the shots of the attack action would have to come from the hand crossbow (or from some hypothetical 3rd, one-handed, weapon, though this will pretty always be less optimal than just using the hand crossbow, except if magic items are involved)); but nothing stops an 11th level fighter shooting twice with the heavy crossbow, once with the hand crossbow (3 attacks of the Attack action) and then one more time with the hand crossbow as a bonus action.

That's correct. I don't get to level 11 much. But even at level 5, you could make one of the attacks with the heavy crossbow. I'm not sure that's worth giving up the shield, especially before level 11.

I'll edit my post above.

[Sigreid]

Thri Kreen isn't that big of a deal, with some small adjustments.

I believe its already inferred in the ability, but the smaller arms can't utilize a shield. Just make that clear.
The small arms aren't dextrous enough to reload something.

The whole thing about hands free for components? That's nothing. A greatsword using Paladin can remove a single hand off their weapon, cast, and place the hand back on their weapon. Its not a big deal.

I would assume that it's more they aren't strong enough for a shield. I mean, they can use only finess weapons which to me says they're the fine work arms but without a lot of strength.

[jaappleton]

Probably brought up already, but I feel this might be a nod back to their previously hinted two classic settings returning: Spelljammer AND DARK SUN! (if I'm not mistaken, thri-kreen was originally indigenous to Athas)

From what I have heard

Dark Sun isn't currently being worked on.

Don't confuse that for there not being any plans for it at all, however.

[Amnestic]

Yes because if anything tieflings need, it's more options.

Ah you see, that's the genius of it, we put the options under the other races so they're not "tiefling" options, they're "halfling," "gnome", "dwarf" options.

That just happen to all be hellish planetouched tieflings-in-everything-but-name.

They'll never figure out such a devilish trick.

[Arkhios]

From what I have heard

Dark Sun isn't currently being worked on.

Don't confuse that for there not being any plans for it at all, however.

I mean, sure, just because a race from a specific setting appears in this article doesn't have to mean that they're all going to be released right away.

IIRC, the first UA article had both genasi and warforged and they ended up being released several years apart.

And, FWIW, I believe thri-kreen have been included in several other settings since the Dark Sun, and they could certainly fit in any setting very well.

My guess, however, is that all these might appear in the new Mordenkainen's Masters of the Multiverse or whatever it was called, showcasing races from several different worlds.

[Tawmis]

I mean, sure, just because a race from a specific setting appears in this article doesn't have to mean that they're all going to be released right away.
IIRC, the first UA article had both genasi and warforged and they ended up being released several years apart.
And, FWIW, I believe thri-kreen have been included in several other settings since the Dark Sun, and they could certainly fit in any setting very well.
My guess, however, is that all these might appear in the new Mordenkainen's Masters of the Multiverse or whatever it was called, showcasing races from several different worlds.

Man, it'd be a DREAM if they went as far as including some races from STAR FRONTIERS - like the Drasalite, Vrusk and Yarzarians.

EDIT -

As well as a couple direct nods to Star Frontiers. It would have been cool to see some vrusk in there, but I guess they're thematically (and somewhat physically) similar to the thri-kreen.

Just saw your post. Glad to see others who haven't forgotten STAR FRONTIERS.

[Arkhios]

Man, it'd be a DREAM if they went as far as including some races from STAR FRONTIERS - like the Drasalite, Vrusk and Yarzarians.

EDIT -


Just saw your post. Glad to see others who haven't forgotten STAR FRONTIERS.

I must admit I'm young enough to not have heard of Star Frontiers until today for the first time.

[Yakmala]

So, it just occurred to me that a Thri-Kreen fighter, once they hit level 5, could, using Action Surge, Grapple up to four creatures on the same turn.

[Millstone85]

So, it just occurred to me that a Thri-Kreen fighter, once they hit level 5, could, using Action Surge, Grapple up to four creatures on the same turn.I believe that the grapple attempt can only replace one attack per Attack action, so bring that number down to two creatures.

[stoutstien]

I believe that the grapple attempt can only replace one attack per Attack action, so bring that number down to two creatures.

No such limit exists.

[Millstone85]

No such limit exists.The text says:
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. If you're able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
I am reading that "one" as limitative.

Edit: Turns out Crawford disagrees with me, in this tweet (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/700143392257249281). I am surprised that wasn't judged worthy of the compendium.

[stoutstien]

The text says:
I am reading that "one" as limitative.

Exactly. The grapple replaced one attack rather the whole action it does not say you can only replace one per action because if that was the case they have different wording for such mechanics. See the net weapon or most of the rerolling options.

[Millstone85]

Exactly. The grapple replaced one attack rather the whole action it does not say you can only replace one per action because if that was the case they have different wording for such mechanics. See the net weapon or most of the rerolling options.Wait, how are you interpreting attacks with a net?


When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.That's a complete cancellation of Extra Attack, isn't it? Which isn't how I was reading the grappling rules.

I was saying you could "grapple + sword" but not "grapple + grapple".

[stoutstien]

Wait, how are you interpreting attacks with a net?
Strictly RaW the net would eat all your attacks available in the same action you used to make that attack with it.

[EggKookoo]

I don't think there are rules for this, but many (most?) monsters with a grapple ability specify they can only grapple one creature at a time. I suppose that's down to interpretation.

[stoutstien]

I don't think there are rules for this, but many (most?) monsters with a grapple ability specify they can only grapple one creature at a time. I suppose that's down to interpretation.

It's usually one target per limb or weapon that has the grapple/restrain rider. So if it's a bite it's one, crab claws is two, octopus is 8, and so on.

[togapika]

I'm trying to think if there's a race I was waiting for more then the Giff (There's never been an official raccoon race in any edition, right?) and yet this is just so disappointing. How often do Str saves actually come up in a game, and what Giff worth their salt would want to use a melee weapon over guns or explosives? Carrying capacity is nice enough at first, but by the point anyone has access to magical carrying i.e. bag of holding, handy haversack, etc. usually GM's don't worry about that stuff unless you're really trying to pull one over on them.

I've been in a game that meets regularly for maybe a year or longer and I can't remember the last time a character of mine had to make a strength saving throw.

[Tawmis]

I must admit I'm young enough to not have heard of Star Frontiers until today for the first time.

Oh, that's all right. Enjoy thy youth! :)

STAR FRONTIERS was quite fun back then. It had it's limits (not much for races), a lot of monsters had to be home brewed if you went outside the modules, etc.

But loved it!

[sambojin]

Excuse me, DM Sir/Mam, how much of the Plasmoid's abilities carry over to wildshape? Is it a lot? Because if it is, I'm going to be a Plasmoid Moon Druid this campaign, thankyou, please 😎


Mmmm, tool using, 1" gap squeezing, possibly talking Giant Spider form at lvl2. Or poison resistant, 10' caltrop throwing, Spike Growth grapple mastering, bird flipping-offing Warhorses for non-Moon Druids by lvl4.

(Even just the Spider Climb spell makes this look like "well, you broke the fortress I designed, didn't you?" with this race, no wildshape needed.)

Oh, and Giff are great for this too. Why shouldn't Hippo Build carry over? There's big beasts and small. Damage dealer looks a bit better too, when you can use it on d10's whenever you want, to try and eke every last bit of +DPR from it with the correct wildshape forms. Grapples ahoy!

[Hytheter]

Excuse me, DM Sir/Mam, how much of the Plasmoid's abilities carry over to wildshape? Is it a lot? Because if it is, I'm going to be a Plasmoid Moon Druid this campaign, thankyou, please 😎


Mmmm, tool using, 1" gap squeezing, possibly talking Giant Spider form at lvl2. Or poison resistant, 10' caltrop throwing, Spike Growth grapple mastering, bird flipping-offing Warhorses for non-Moon Druids by lvl4.

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so."

I'm guessing most wild shape forms can do approximately 0% of what you describe.

[Telwar]

I'm trying to think if there's a race I was waiting for more then the Giff (There's never been an official raccoon race in any edition, right?) and yet this is just so disappointing. How often do Str saves actually come up in a game, and what Giff worth their salt would want to use a melee weapon over guns or explosives? Carrying capacity is nice enough at first, but by the point anyone has access to magical carrying i.e. bag of holding, handy haversack, etc. usually GM's don't worry about that stuff unless you're really trying to pull one over on them.

I've been in a game that meets regularly for maybe a year or longer and I can't remember the last time a character of mine had to make a strength saving throw.

While I don't have a particular love for giff, aside from loving hippos, they do seem, frankly, underwhelming, with two abilities and a swim speed. The "reroll a single 1 on a melee damage die" ability is frankly strong, but if you don't melee, then there's no mileage out of it.

I'm hoping it'll be buffed somewhat after feedback.


I'm also vaguely curious if, since they're removing racial abilities that are "cultural" in nature, if there's going to be a culture layer to character creation added in, in addition to background and class proficiencies.

Now, I suspect not, since that might require more work on their part that can be more easily outsourced to literally anyone else, and it's easier to just say "use your class proficiencies to represent your cultural background," but I could be wrong.

[Hytheter]

The "reroll a single 1 on a melee damage die" ability is frankly strong

Really? It seems pretty piddly to me.

[EggKookoo]

I'm also vaguely curious if, since they're removing racial abilities that are "cultural" in nature, if there's going to be a culture layer to character creation added in, in addition to background and class proficiencies.

Now, I suspect not, since that might require more work on their part that can be more easily outsourced to literally anyone else, and it's easier to just say "use your class proficiencies to represent your cultural background," but I could be wrong.

I fully expect the 2024/5.5 update to include a cultural layer to PCs. Didn't someone say they were thinking of expanding Backgrounds, or making them more relevant? That would be the place to do it. A bonus is it lets them tailor these by setting. So FR high elves are a certain thing but Eberron high elves are a different thing. I mean on your character sheet, with cultural features, and not just in the descriptive text. And it opens the door to a variety of backgrounds for a given race in a given setting, so we end up with not one "FR high elf" culture but a few of them.

An additional benefit is that they can be mix-and-matched. Want your dwarf PC raised among humans? Give him the human cultural background. Maybe some races don't even have a cultural background of their own and always borrow another's.

Honestly most of this is where the stuff we normally think of as "race" goes. A lot of the personality of a race comes from its culture.

[Millstone85]

I fully expect the 2024/5.5 update to include a cultural layer to PCs. Didn't someone say they were thinking of expanding Backgrounds, or making them more relevant? That would be the place to do it.I think of backgrounds as being more personal. Your profession, a defining life event, that kind of thing. So I hope the cultural layer becomes its own thing. A character would now have a race, culture, background and class.

[Joe the Rat]

4-piece character development? That would work well.

The fact this is landing when I am laying plans to crack the sphere on one of my game worlds is quite serendipitous.


As well as a couple direct nods to Star Frontiers. It would have been cool to see some vrusk in there, but I guess they're thematically (and somewhat physically) similar to the thri-kreen.

They did incorporate Dralasites and Yazarians (Hadozee) into Spelljammer at one point. I too am tickled by the inclusions, though a bit disappointed they defaulted plasmoids to 1-2 arms & legs. Pentapodal Dralasites were the art standard. The pseudopod kind of fills that spot, but it isn't quite the same.

[EggKookoo]

Yeah, I don't really have a position on the specifics of how they break it out. I just expect culture to become the new race, in terms of the narrative themes of your PC's background (not necessarily Background).

Race will become much more about unambiguous physiological properties, like lifespan, size, darkvision, etc.

[stoutstien]

Really? It seems pretty piddly to me.

It is. Like ~.5 damage per turn piddly. Rerolls do have a big psychological boost/power so it's not nothing but by the math it's a actually weaker than the half orcs added crit die and we all know how bad that is.

It's going to fall on the same category as a protection fighting style where occasionally a player might think it made a difference.

It's all about the advantage on str checks. Would open the door for grappling monk's once they combine it with expertise so they can consistently land them even with a 10-12 strength.

[Sigreid]

I must admit I'm young enough to not have heard of Star Frontiers until today for the first time.

Star Frontiers was a fun game and setting. Not sure it would fly today though. The advanced rule book was about 100 pages with almost everything left up to the group playing to decide how to handle it. Now days it seems most players want everything spelled out.

[Arkhios]

Star Frontiers was a fun game and setting. Not sure it would fly today though. The advanced rule book was about 100 pages with almost everything left up to the group playing to decide how to handle it. Now days it seems most players want everything spelled out.

From what I read about it, it used percentile dice system rather than the standard d20-system, so it probably won't get much spotlight anytime soon, at least not in 5e. Maybe someone gets inspired to update it on their own, but really, I doubt WotC has any plans to do so.

[EggKookoo]

From what I read about it, it used percentile dice system rather than the standard d20-system, so it probably won't get much spotlight anytime soon, at least not in 5e. Maybe someone gets inspired to update it on their own, but really, I doubt WotC has any plans to do so.

While SF was meant to be harder than (what would later come as) Spelljammer, thematically they overlap enough that I can see WotC just folding them into the same package. "Star Frontiers" as a brand could just become a sourcebook/location/adventure within a larger Spelljammer setting. Which, in turn, is probably just going to be absorbed into some expansive "Multiverse" setting that will likely incorporate places like Sigil.

[Sigreid]

From what I read about it, it used percentile dice system rather than the standard d20-system, so it probably won't get much spotlight anytime soon, at least not in 5e. Maybe someone gets inspired to update it on their own, but really, I doubt WotC has any plans to do so.

It was percentile dice, but really, D20 is just percentile based hidden behind dividing by 5.

[Arkhios]

It was percentile dice, but really, D20 is just percentile based hidden behind dividing by 5.

True, if we're cutting corners, it certainly comes to that.

Heck, one could theoretically roll almost everything with just one die, if they really tried.

[RustyArcana]

I love that they brought all of the old Star Frontier races back.

I played a Hadozee Dragon Shaman in 3.5, he was a blast. I am looking forward to porting him over to 5E with the new Hadozee race and the new Dragon Monk subclass. :smallcool:

[togapika]

It's all about the advantage on str checks. Would open the door for grappling monk's once they combine it with expertise so they can consistently land them even with a 10-12 strength.

Grappling Monk, eh? I smell a Kensai Monk Gun-Fu build in the works....

[Ralanr]

Grappling Monk, eh? I smell a Kensai Monk Gun-Fu build in the works....

A hippo sumo specializing in gun-fu is not what I expected to think of today, but it works.

[diplomancer]

It is. Like ~.5 damage per turn piddly. Rerolls do have a big psychological boost/power so it's not nothing but by the math it's a actually weaker than the half orcs added crit die and we all know how bad that is.

It's going to fall on the same category as a protection fighting style where occasionally a player might think it made a difference.

It's all about the advantage on str checks. Would open the door for grappling monk's once they combine it with expertise so they can consistently land them even with a 10-12 strength.

It's better the more dies you roll in an attack; so pretty good for Rogues and smiting Paladins, not so good for other martials.

[Sigreid]

A hippo sumo specializing in gun-fu is not what I expected to think of today, but it works.

I was thinking a bard specialized in performance myself.

https://i0.wp.com/factrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/49.hippo-ballerina-scene-in-Fantasia.jpg

[Millstone85]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM3knnXEBwzQOJ?format=jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBNhGxMVgAA6fNq?format=png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBM3vD8WUAUmIxA?format=png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBNYDuiVIAIjuwD?format=jpg

[Ralanr]

It's better the more dies you roll in an attack; so pretty good for Rogues and smiting Paladins, not so good for other martials.

No one expects the quiet footsteps of a hippo.

[stoutstien]

It's better the more dies you roll in an attack; so pretty good for Rogues and smiting Paladins, not so good for other martials.

It really doesn't help much to have more dice per attack because it's limited to only one die. You could have 1000 d6s every attack and you'd still only get ~.4 extra damage a turn.

For completeness
D4= .375
D6=.416
D8=.43
D10= .45
D12=.916

So about ~.5 increase if to are looking at it from a general standpoint. They have always over valued damage rerolls in 5e.

[strangebloke]

It really doesn't help much to have more dice per attack because it's limited to only one die. You could have 1000 d6s every attack and you'd still only get ~.4 extra damage a turn.

For completeness
D4= .375
D6=.416
D8=.43
D10= .45
D12=.916

So about ~.5 increase if to are looking at it from a general standpoint. They have always over valued damage rerolls in 5e.

Nah, you're wrong.

Using the d4 as an example, there's a 1/4 chance Damage Dealer procs, and when it does, it adds 1.5 damage (improving from 1 to 2.5, the average result of the reroll) Multiplying the odds of Damage Dealer proccing by the amount of damage it gives when it procs yields your result of .375.

However, if you roll 30 d4s, the probability of Damage Dealer proccing goes up to 99.98%, which makes the damage increase effectively 1.5, or four times as high as if you were rolling just one d4.

This is particularly potent for larger dice. Normally with a d12 you're looking at a 1/12 chance of gaining 5.5 damage, for an average increase of 0.45 damage. But if you have 3 d12s somehow your odds of damage dealer proccing go up to ~78% and the expected damage bonus goes up to ~1.3.

So the 20th level Giff rogue with TWF shortswords might get 12d6 in a turn for (1-(5/6)^12)*2.5 = 2.2.

Still not incredible, but lots of dice does make it better.

[Foolwise]

Heck, one could theoretically roll almost everything with just one die, if they really tried.

d2? roll a d12 divide by 6
d3? d12 divided by 4
d4? d12 divided by 3
d6? d12 divided by 2
d8? 2d12 divided by 3
d10? 5d12 divided by 6
d20? 5d12 divided by 3
%? 9d12 - 8

The oft forgotten d12 finally has its time to shine!

[EggKookoo]

d2? roll a d12 divide by 6
d3? d12 divided by 4
d4? d12 divided by 3
d6? d12 divided by 2
d8? 2d12 divided by 3
d10? 5d12 divided by 6
d20? 5d12 divided by 3
%? 9d12 - 8

The oft forgotten d12 finally has its time to shine!

You heard it here first, kids. D&D 5.5e will use the d12 system!

[Ralanr]

You heard it here first, kids. D&D 5.5e will use the d12 system!

Thog is happy!

[stoutstien]

Nah, you're wrong.

Using the d4 as an example, there's a 1/4 chance Damage Dealer procs, and when it does, it adds 1.5 damage (improving from 1 to 2.5, the average result of the reroll) Multiplying the odds of Damage Dealer proccing by the amount of damage it gives when it procs yields your result of .375.

However, if you roll 30 d4s, the probability of Damage Dealer proccing goes up to 99.98%, which makes the damage increase effectively 1.5, or four times as high as if you were rolling just one d4.

This is particularly potent for larger dice. Normally with a d12 you're looking at a 1/12 chance of gaining 5.5 damage, for an average increase of 0.45 damage. But if you have 3 d12s somehow your odds of damage dealer proccing go up to ~78% and the expected damage bonus goes up to ~1.3.

So the 20th level Giff rogue with TWF shortswords might get 12d6 in a turn for (1-(5/6)^12)*2.5 = 2.2.

Still not incredible, but lots of dice does make it better.

The reroll is worth .375 for a D4.
Standard odds (1+2+3+4)/4=2.5
Odds with reroll (2.5.+2+3+4)/4 =2.875
You can't forget to include the odds of rerolling a one. Worst part is as written this and the great weapon fighting style are mutually exclusive so if you roll a one with either one of them you have to keep it. If they were stackable it'd be annoying to reroll a die three times but at least it would add a chance of some actual damage.

Doesn't matter how many dice you add that is what it adds on average due to only being able to do it once and each die is an independent variable.
It's a really neat cognitive trick that they pull with this reroll because when you use it and you get higher than a one it feels good but if you didn't roll that low to begin with it wouldn't be necessary. This is why it doesn't matter if you have a thousand dice or one. More dice increase your odds of getting a one but it does nothing to actually increase the impact. If you want to test this with a proof just use any number of rolls possible results with a die.
Average results
4d4= 10
4d4 with reroll= 10.375
100d4=250
100d4 with reroll=250.375

You could roll one 1 or 99 1s and a total impact would be the same. Frequency has no impact on intensity. Your math would be correct if you're looking at something like the sorcerer's meta magic that allows you to reroll all ones or the GWF style that can be applied to all attacks.


If it allows you to reroll all ones on melee attacks (just realized it doesn't specify weapons so you could use this with melee spell attacks) we could talk about something more interesting but as it is meh.

[strangebloke]

The reroll is worth .375 for a D4.
Standard odds (1+2+3+4)/4=2.5
Odds with reroll (2.5.+2+3+4)/4 =2.875
You can't forget to include the odds of rerolling a one. Worst part is as written this and the great weapon fighting style are mutually exclusive so if you roll a one with either one of them you have to keep it. If they were stackable it'd be annoying to reroll a die three times but at least it would add a chance of some actual damage.

Doesn't matter how many dice you add that is what it adds on average because you can only do it once and each die is an independent variable.
It's a really neat cognitive trick that they pull with this reroll because when you use it and you get higher than a one it feels good but if you didn't roll that low to begin with it wouldn't be necessary. This is why it doesn't matter if you have a thousand dice or one. More dice increase your odds of getting a one but it does nothing to actually increase the impact. If you want to test this with a proof just use any number of rolls possible results with a die.
Average results
4d4= 10
4d4 with reroll= 10.375
100d4=250
100d4 with reroll=250.375


Sorry, you're correct about everything else you're saying here (that it doesn't work with GWF, that it doesn't offer a bonus that scales well with total damage) but your math is incorrect.

In the event you roll a one, that one is improved to [average die result]. So for a d4 that's 1 -> 2.5, for a d6 that's 1 -> 3.5, for a d8 that's 1 -> 4.5 and so on. The bonus of Damage Dealer when it procs is thus 1.5 for a d4, 2.5 for a d6, 3.5 for a d8, and so on. But the probability of actually rolling a one also decreases with Damage Dealer, so the expected average damage output increases less than you'd expect.

1d4: 1.5/4 = 0.38
1d6: 2.5/6 = 0.40
1d8: 3.5/8 = 0.44
1d10: 4.5/10 = 0.45
1d12: 5.5/12 = 0.46

multiple dice allow you to increase the odds of proccing DD on at least one roll. As number of dice increase, the likelihood of DD proccing goes to one, and you get the maximum damage boost every time. This is logarithmic scaling with damage so its really bad and has a hard limit based on whatever die you're using but it is scaling. Technically.

[stoutstien]

Sorry, you're correct about everything else you're saying here (that it doesn't work with GWF, that it doesn't offer a bonus that scales well with total damage) but your math is incorrect.

In the event you roll a one, that one is improved to [average die result]. So for a d4 that's 1 -> 2.5, for a d6 that's 1 -> 3.5, for a d8 that's 1 -> 4.5 and so on. The bonus of Damage Dealer when it procs is thus 1.5 for a d4, 2.5 for a d6, 3.5 for a d8, and so on. But the probability of actually rolling a one also decreases with Damage Dealer, so the expected average damage output increases less than you'd expect.

1d4: 1.5/4 = 0.38
1d6: 2.5/6 = 0.40
1d8: 3.5/8 = 0.44
1d10: 4.5/10 = 0.45
1d12: 5.5/12 = 0.46

multiple dice allow you to increase the odds of proccing DD on at least one roll. As number of dice increase, the likelihood of DD proccing goes to one, and you get the maximum damage boost every time. This is logarithmic scaling with damage so its really bad and has a hard limit based on whatever die you're using but it is scaling. Technically.
Where are you getting the 1.5?

If you take the value of the reroll(which was what I was talking about. not damage which is not the same because math) for a D4 when you roll a 1 to account for the chance for rerolling a 1 a second time
(2.5+2+3+4)/4=2.875
And plug it back into to the damage range
(2.875+2+3+4)/4=2.969
Which would be the average damage with any given D4 for a giff.

[strangebloke]

Where are you getting the 1.5?

If you take the value of the reroll(which was what I was talking about. not damage which is not the same because math) for a D4 when you roll a 1 to account for the chance for rerolling a 1 a second time
(2.5+2+3+4)/4=2.875
And plug it back into to the damage range
(2.875+2+3+4)/4=2.969
Which would be the average damage with any given D4 for a giff.

When you roll a 1, you reroll. The expected result on the d4 reroll (including the possibility of getting another 1) is 2.5. So when you roll a 1 and use damage dealer, your average result is 1.5 higher than if you didn't have damage dealer. But you only roll a 1 one fourth of the time. So the net damage gain is 1.5/4, or 0.375.

But as the number of d4s increase, the odds of one of them rolling a 1 increases, and the odds of proccing damage dealer increase. With a large number of d4s, the probability of DD proccing once is effectively 100%, which means that you get the damage bonus of DD (which for a d4 is 1.5) effectively 100% of the time, which means DD effectively gives you 1.5 bonus damage.

https://i.ibb.co/ZhMKh8S/damage-dealer.png

[GooeyChewie]

I ran the numbers on rolling 2d4 with Damage Dealer rather than 1d4. The average damage without Damage Dealer is 5.0; the average damage with Damage Dealer is ~5.656. The increase in average damage for a single 1d4 was from 2.5 to 2.875. Damager Dealer is more effective with each additional die that you roll, but you'll notice the increase did not simply double. The second die accounted for an increase of ~0.281, while the original die contributed 0.375. While I have not worked out the math, I suspect each additional die will continue to add value at a diminishing rate, until the value levels out at 1.5 (the average increase of changing a 1 into a 1d4). This pattern would in line with the chart provided by strangebloke.



Or to put it another way, Damage Dealer only has value if you roll a 1, and the more dice you roll the more likely you are to get a 1. Rogue Giff is best Giff.

[sandmote]

So the net damage gain is 1.5/4, or 0.375.
TO be needlessly pedantic it is (2.5-1)/4, because you're giving up 1 point of damage to roll the d4. Yes, swapping a 1 for a 1d4 is always worth it, but you're still giving up the 1.

Also, off the top of my head ideas for making the Giff remotely interesting:

Clear Mind / Stiff Upper Lip
At the start of your turn, if you are frightened or charmed, the condition immediately ends. You can use this feature once, and regain it at the end of a long rest.

Large Reserves / Cup of Tea
When you reach 5th level, you gain 1 hit die at end end of a short rest, equal in size to the largest hit die you can regain. You cannot spend this hit die at the end of the same short rest.

[Kane0]

Also, off the top of my head ideas for making the Giff remotely interesting:

Clear Mind / Stiff Upper Lip
At the start of your turn, if you are frightened or charmed, the condition immediately ends. You can use this feature once, and regain it at the end of a long rest.

Large Reserves / Cup of Tea
When you reach 5th level, you gain 1 hit die at end end of a short rest, equal in size to the largest hit die you can regain. You cannot spend this hit die at the end of the same short rest.


Neat! 10char

[Aliess]

What would be people's thoughts on negative species traits? Something like
"Hive Mind - gain disadvantage on all persuasion and insight checks on non thri-keen."

[Waazraath]

Tbh, I think new races is the least needed thing in 5e at this point. If these will become part of setting where they are needed, fine, fair enough. But in general I'd really like to see more BM maneuvers, Rune Knight runes, invocations, totem options, 4e monk options and feats, or maybe a few new classes - and I'd prefer designers would put their time in those.

[Amnestic]

What would be people's thoughts on negative species traits? Something like
"Hive Mind - gain disadvantage on all persuasion and insight checks on non thri-keen."

I don't dislike 'negative' traits on their own, but I'd like them to have a positive that either outweighs or equalises the negative (and if so, they need additional traits). Kobolds are a good example of this in action - Sunlight Sensitivity gives a lot of disadvantage, but it's counteracted by pack tactics which usually ends up as a net positive outside of some very specific campaigns.

So your Hive Mind might be offset by a boost to Wis or Int saves or some limited telepathy or something like that.

[jaappleton]

Tbh, I think new races is the least needed thing in 5e at this point. If these will become part of setting where they are needed, fine, fair enough. But in general I'd really like to see more BM maneuvers, Rune Knight runes, invocations, totem options, 4e monk options and feats, or maybe a few new classes - and I'd prefer designers would put their time in those.

Know what?

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Whatever race doesn't yet exist? Between reflavoring and Tasha's, you can create pretty much anything you want at this point.

Adding new Invocations, Maneuvers, etc is where the design team should be focusing their efforts.

[Ralanr]

Know what?

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Whatever race doesn't yet exist? Between reflavoring and Tasha's, you can create pretty much anything you want at this point.

Adding new Invocations, Maneuvers, etc is where the design team should be focusing their efforts.

I don't disagree, but I feel like this effort would be pushed more toward making new spells than maneuvers, and this doesn't help other martial classes that don't have access to infusions, invocations, or maneuvers (like barbarian or monk). Obviously this means we should see more subclass development, and I'd love to see more than just two new subclasses like we're getting in the dragon book.

I feel like the barbarian could use more subclasses. I'm biased but it feels like they don't get enough compared to others.

[Joe the Rat]

I was thinking a bard specialized in performance myself.

https://i0.wp.com/factrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/49.hippo-ballerina-scene-in-Fantasia.jpg

Shall we combine with a Lizardfolk Rogue?

[Amnestic]

I don't disagree, but I feel like this effort would be pushed more toward making new spells than maneuvers, and this doesn't help other martial classes that don't have access to infusions, invocations, or maneuvers (like barbarian or monk). Obviously this means we should see more subclass development, and I'd love to see more than just two new subclasses like we're getting in the dragon book.

I feel like the barbarian could use more subclasses. I'm biased but it feels like they don't get enough compared to others.

We've already seen in Tasha's that they're okay with "patching" base classes via Optional Class Features (eg. expanded spell lists, Primal Knowledge, Steady Aim), there's little reason they can't make a set of, for example, barb-exclusive maneuvers and add them as OCFs in a future book.

[Waazraath]

I don't disagree, but I feel like this effort would be pushed more toward making new spells than maneuvers, and this doesn't help other martial classes that don't have access to infusions, invocations, or maneuvers (like barbarian or monk). Obviously this means we should see more subclass development, and I'd love to see more than just two new subclasses like we're getting in the dragon book.

I feel like the barbarian could use more subclasses. I'm biased but it feels like they don't get enough compared to others.

As for invocations: one of the biggest flaws in Tasha's imo is that it made the 'gain an invocation feat' exclusively for spell casters. In a fantasy world, there is plenty of justification for a character taking such a feat due to heritage or being exposed to some magical effect. I hope that if there ever comes a 'gain an infusion'-feat, they won't make this mistake. Maybe even more for infusions, since a few of those (repeated shot crossbow and returning weapon for throwing) are highly convenient and for specific fighting styles.

And yeah, they definitely should develop more options for martials in general, that's why I menitoned new options for totem barbarians, rune knights and 4e-monks. But maybe some alternative class features for all classes - the champion was decent when 5e was published, but as the game is now, with all power creep since release, it really wouldn't hurt if the champion got some acf's, if only for games where other characters are highly optimized.




Whatever race doesn't yet exist? Between reflavoring and Tasha's, you can create pretty much anything you want at this point.


and yes, this as well.

[Telwar]

Know what?

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Whatever race doesn't yet exist? Between reflavoring and Tasha's, you can create pretty much anything you want at this point.

Adding new Invocations, Maneuvers, etc is where the design team should be focusing their efforts.

Races are one of the biggest choices that players make mechanically on character creation, and for non-casters one of like two choices they make (the other is class and subclass). So it's fairly low-hanging fruit for WotC to pump out, since they're extremely reluctant to create a new class, and apparently fairly reluctant to make new subclasses.

And yet, I'm honestly surprised they didn't resort to "make it up, rulings not rules."

[Sigreid]

What would be people's thoughts on negative species traits? Something like
"Hive Mind - gain disadvantage on all persuasion and insight checks on non thri-keen."
My issue would be with it being inconsistent with the design rules they laid down. For example, I was annoyed by the kobold strength penalty not because I'm against there being racial penalties, but because they had established firmly that we don't do negitive attribute modifiers anymore.

[Aliess]

So your Hive Mind might be offset by a boost to Wis or Int saves or some limited telepathy or something like that.
That was the sort of thing I was thinking. They gain telepathy as written, but struggle to cope with the mindset of others so it comes with a drawback. Not that I am particularly sold on this particular ability, just the idea that you could throw in more racial benefits if they also have downsides.


My issue would be with it being inconsistent with the design rules they laid down. For example, I was annoyed by the kobold strength penalty not because I'm against there being racial penalties, but because they had established firmly that we don't do negitive attribute modifiers anymore.

Interesting. I want aware that had been established. Oh well. :)

[Amnestic]

On the note of "do we need more races", the answer 'mechanically' is no, but narratively? Maybe.

Eberron wouldn't be what it is without warforged or dragonmarked. People would be clamouring if the Giff were left absent from a Planescape book. I don't know that much about Ravnica but I'm guessing Simic Hybrids being missing would have been felt, and [dark sun something something idk].

Yes, players/DMs can make their own via the Tasha's custom lineage stuff, not disagreeing there, but if a setting book is going to discuss a race's involvement in the setting and their place in it, it would be pretty silly to not also provide rules for them. No, we perhaps don't need Astral Elves* or mechagnomes, but talking about a blanket moratorium on new races doesn't really work for me. If they're notable for the setting they should have rules.

*we do, actually. In fact we need an entire setting where the only playable race is different elf flavours.

[Sigreid]

That was the sort of thing I was thinking. They gain telepathy as written, but struggle to cope with the mindset of others so it comes with a drawback. Not that I am particularly sold on this particular ability, just the idea that you could throw in more racial benefits if they also have downsides.



Interesting. I want aware that had been established. Oh well. :)

Ok, I'll admit that this may be my reading into it, but the fact that they removed all of the negatives from the races in the PHB to me set a design standard.

[Thunderous Mojo]

A question I wonder at is: how much work time does it take to create a new race for 5e D&D?

The meetings for artwork, etc, seem like they might consume more time then the actual creation of the mechanics of a Dhampir etc.

I'm surprised at how taken I am with the Harengon race from Witchlight.
Rabbit-folk, conceptually, do not really appeal to me, but the Harengon brigands won me over.

[Tawmis]

From what I read about it, it used percentile dice system rather than the standard d20-system, so it probably won't get much spotlight anytime soon, at least not in 5e. Maybe someone gets inspired to update it on their own, but really, I doubt WotC has any plans to do so.

Oh, I don't want them to revamp the percentile system - I want them to give us a 5e version with the d20 system. As in make it a part of D&D.
Mostly just need them to add the races - and some of the monsters from the modules into 5e. :)

[Luccan]

Ok, I'll admit that this may be my reading into it, but the fact that they removed all of the negatives from the races in the PHB to me set a design standard.

They did have Drow with Sunlight Sensitivity, it was really just the ability score penalties that were unprecedented

[Sigreid]

They did have Drow with Sunlight Sensitivity, it was really just the ability score penalties that were unprecedented

And that's mostly what I was thinking of.

[KorvinStarmast]

Ability score minuses are not unprecedented, previous editions had them - perhaps you meant "not like that in the PHB" for unprecedented? :smallconfused:

Am I the only one that saw Thri-Kreen and immediately squealed "Darksun?!" in self delusion? I choked down the squeal but I did grin.

Also, more elves? Don't we have enough? The sarcastic, possibly facetious description of D&D as "an elf game" has become a hard reality.

Elves, the cockroaches of the multiverse. /me Checks to see if Ralanr is a dwarf.

Yeah, and I know I'm not a fan of that. Why make Halflings, Dwarves, and Gnomes slower for legacy then completely ignore it for other small races? Heck, dwarves are medium! aye.

But I'm not seeing a blanket statement that says you can't have two features with the same name, period. (Especially since we're talking about a Racial feature and a Class feature.)
If that were a rule, a character who gets the Spellcasting feature from one class, and then multiclasses into another spellcasting class, wouldn't get the Spellcasting feature from their second class. Thank you for saving me the typing. :smallsmile:

Autognomes are built in their creator's image. Their creators are Rock Gnomes.
Solution(out of the box): remove gnomes from the game entirely. Problem solved! :smallbiggrin:

And yes, this is literally because they turned those aspects of a character into copy and paste boiler plate text. Bah. Yep. Sloppy thinking and sloppy editing. :smallfrown:

Elves are descended from Fey, back in their ancient pre-Elf ancestry, but as a race are not Fey.

Eladrin, on the other hand, ought to have the Fey subtype for their race. They represent the descendants of the shared proto-elven ancestor that continued to live in the Feywild and remained Fey. (I mean, c'mon... Eladrin are even classified as Fey in their statblocks from MToF. So an Eladrin NPC is Fey, but an Eladrin PC is not?) Yeah, different rules for the MM and PHB. It'd a D&D 5e thing.

Tbh, I think new races is the least needed thing in 5e at this point. Concur.

[Luccan]

Ability score minuses are not unprecedented, previous editions had them - perhaps you meant "not like that in the PHB" for unprecedented? :smallconfused:
.

Yes, that is what I meant. I didn't think previous editions were relevant to why Kobolds and Orcs receiving those penalties didn't match 5e's implicit standards

[strangebloke]

IMO, races are one thing that should absolutely be limited by DM. Assuming that every race is present becomes frankly unworkable at some level by virtue of simple mass. There's way too many races to coherently all put in the same setting. Sure, you can have a PC that is a weird one-of-a-kind warforged, or a tabaxi who is visiting from the tabaxi colonies to the far north, but there's a limit to how far you can push this. Further complicating matters Some races are very aesthetically inconsistent with a given setting. Giff are out of place in curse of strahd. Gnomes are imo out of place in a lot of settings where they're assumed to be default.

In a sense I'm fine with more race options, I'm just not going to use most of them. Of those in this update.... probably would only allow plasmoids and astral elves.

[EggKookoo]

IMO, races are one thing that should absolutely be limited by DM. Assuming that every race is present becomes frankly unworkable at some level by virtue of simple mass. There's way too many races to coherently all put in the same setting. Sure, you can have a PC that is a weird one-of-a-kind warforged, or a tabaxi who is visiting from the tabaxi colonies to the far north, but there's a limit to how far you can push this. Further complicating matters Some races are very aesthetically inconsistent with a given setting. Giff are out of place in curse of strahd. Gnomes are imo out of place in a lot of settings where they're assumed to be default.

I handle this by having very limited true races in my setting. If you want to play someone not allowed by those limits, you're a mutant of some kind. There's probably only one of you in the entire world.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yes, that is what I meant. I didn't think previous editions were relevant to why Kobolds and Orcs receiving those penalties didn't match 5e's implicit standards FWIW, from a wordsmithing perspective, I think "inconsistent" probably would scan better than "unprecedented" but that's getting way into the blue pencil editing thing.
Beyond that: for me, no PCs are oozes.
Yes, a once ate my PC; the wallabies went hungry that day!

[Sigreid]

FWIW, from a wordsmithing perspective, I think "inconsistent" probably would scan better than "unprecedented" but that's getting way into the blue pencil editing thing.
Beyond that: for me, no PCs are oozes.

An ooze fungus druid could be hilarious.

[strangebloke]

I handle this by having very limited true races in my setting. If you want to play someone not allowed by those limits, you're a mutant of some kind. There's probably only one of you in the entire world.

Agreed. What I usually do is fold several 'races' into a single umbrella species, and then only have 2-3 species total. Currently I have

Greyskins (giants, goliaths, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears)
Redbloods (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Haflings, Aasimar, Genasi, Tieflings)
Dragonkin(Dragons and their servants: Kobolds, Dragonborn, Lizardfolk)
Beastmen (tabaxi, centaurs, leonin, minotaurs)

Most of these have specific lore about how their own people came to be and how much variance there is, and I even have a history of inter-race and intra-race relations.

Its a bit of work, but... well, we're a bit off topic :smalltongue:

[Ralanr]

Agreed. What I usually do is fold several 'races' into a single umbrella species, and then only have 2-3 species total. Currently I have

Greyskins (giants, goliaths, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears)
Redbloods (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Haflings, Aasimar, Genasi, Tieflings)
Dragonkin(Dragons and their servants: Kobolds, Dragonborn, Lizardfolk)
Beastmen (tabaxi, centaurs, leonin, minotaurs)

Most of these have specific lore about how their own people came to be and how much variance there is, and I even have a history of inter-race and intra-race relations.

Its a bit of work, but... well, we're a bit off topic :smalltongue:

Dragonborn: You dare insult our honor?!

[Wildstag]

Greyskins (giants, goliaths, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears)
Redbloods (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Haflings, Aasimar, Genasi, Tieflings)
Dragonkin(Dragons and their servants: Kobolds, Dragonborn, Lizardfolk)
Beastmen (tabaxi, centaurs, leonin, minotaurs)




Dragonborn: You dare insult our honor?!

I was about to say the same for Goliaths and Giants. I really dislike the retconning of Goliaths in Faerun that has made them giant-kin when they weren't in their conception and had a relationship towards giants akin to that Dragonborn have with Dragons (in default setting that is).

Honestly, everything about Goliaths has been watered down so heavily as to make them not unique at all. The loss of their lithoderms and the tattooing of their markings just makes them "big human".

[Ralanr]

I was about to say the same for Goliaths and Giants. I really dislike the retconning of Goliaths in Faerun that has made them giant-kin when they weren't in their conception and had a relationship towards giants akin to that Dragonborn have with Dragons (in default setting that is).

Honestly, everything about Goliaths has been watered down so heavily as to make them not unique at all. The loss of their lithoderms and the tattooing of their markings just makes them "big human".

Yeah, I'll admit I don't actually know much about Goliaths beyond their concept of fair play.

For a race that basically takes up the design space of half-ogres (seriously, how is this name a playable race by this point), I expected a little more? But a lot of early released races after the PHB are kind of barebones. The Genasi are terrible, and the aarakocra are only brought up because of the power of flight.

[Naanomi]

For a race that basically takes up the design space of half-ogres
I think 4e used them as stand-ins for Darksun's half-giants

[Ralanr]

I think 4e used them as stand-ins for Darksun's half-giants

I can't even remember if 4e did half-ogres, and I bought a lot of the books despite never playing it (back when I was obsessed with trying to play it, but knew no one to do it with).

[strangebloke]

I was about to say the same for Goliaths and Giants. I really dislike the retconning of Goliaths in Faerun that has made them giant-kin when they weren't in their conception and had a relationship towards giants akin to that Dragonborn have with Dragons (in default setting that is).

Honestly, everything about Goliaths has been watered down so heavily as to make them not unique at all. The loss of their lithoderms and the tattooing of their markings just makes them "big human".

This is my point, there's too many unconnected one-off races, its absurd. "Wandering through the mountains, you find a tribe of 50 goliaths just out for a stroll, these are the only goliaths you'll ever meet. NEXT mountain over is a bunch of rock gnomes."

Tying goliaths to giants and dragons to dragonborn just gives them something tangible to be connected to rather than just existing as these weird independent entities. If a player wants to play a goliath there's a whole history of connection between them and orcs and them and storm giants and them and hobgoblins. The base lore wouldn't really give them that.

It's a positive, not a negative.

[Ralanr]

This is my point, there's too many unconnected one-off races, its absurd. "Wandering through the mountains, you find a tribe of 50 goliaths just out for a stroll, these are the only goliaths you'll ever meet. NEXT mountain over is a bunch of rock gnomes."

Tying goliaths to giants and dragons to dragonborn just gives them something tangible to be connected to rather than just existing as these weird independent entities. If a player wants to play a goliath there's a whole history of connection between them and orcs and them and storm giants and them and hobgoblins. The base lore wouldn't really give them that.

It's a positive, not a negative.

I agree you can tie them to other big things. Dragonborn are tied to dragons after all.

In that (at least in FR lore) they really hate them and have plenty of stories about rebelling and killing them back in Abier.

[Telwar]

I can't even remember if 4e did half-ogres, and I bought a lot of the books despite never playing it (back when I was obsessed with trying to play it, but knew no one to do it with).

Barring them being in a Dragon article I don't think so.

Part of it is that the 3.5 entry for half-giants was like 1/3 of a page, and goliaths got a full write-up in Races of Stone, so they were a) the new hotness and b) very detailed. By far, goliaths are probably the single most popular race to come out of 3e.

[strangebloke]

I agree you can tie them to other big things. Dragonborn are tied to dragons after all.

In that (at least in FR lore) they really hate them and have plenty of stories about rebelling and killing them back in Abier.

oh tbc I don't have dragonborn as mindless servants of dragons, just a race created by dragons to be warriors in the dragon/giant war who still possess free will and can and do rebel (or just flee the draconic regions)

Similarly I don't have Goliaths as giant vassals, they're just there doing goliath things while also having a shared origin story with giants and orcs and things.

I could ramble about my own lore for ages but its well off topic.

[togapika]

I was about to say the same for Goliaths and Giants. I really dislike the retconning of Goliaths in Faerun that has made them giant-kin when they weren't in their conception

What were they originally?

[PhoenixPhyre]

oh tbc I don't have dragonborn as mindless servants of dragons, just a race created by dragons to be warriors in the dragon/giant war who still possess free will and can and do rebel (or just flee the draconic regions)

Similarly I don't have Goliaths as giant vassals, they're just there doing goliath things while also having a shared origin story with giants and orcs and things.

I could ramble about my own lore for ages but its well off topic.


Dragonborn arise in two ways:
* "natural" dragonborn arise whenever dragons settle around and interact with goblinoids[1] or humans on a generational time-scale. These do not necessarily breed true. They're the "dragon" equivalent of genasi/tieflings/aasimar
* "artificial" dragonborn (long thought of as the only ones due to a paucity of dragons in the area they arose in) were created by a human empire by fusing pieces of dragon soul with unborn children in an attempt to create super-soldiers. These ones breed true, but are limited in number and are only found in one small area in the world.

Goliaths, on the other hand, are one of the original races, except diminished. Specifically the Titans of myth and legend weren't always huge--they normally were basically goliaths, but with runic powers to transform themselves (and their environment). Due to some bad decisions[2], they degenerated and split into two races--dwarves and goliaths. Goliaths possess runic technology to transform members of their race into giants, but it's risky. Failures either die or become the giant-kin (which breed true). This leads to giants and goliaths being mostly in mixed groups--becoming a giant (being selected for that transformation) is the reason that many goliath cultures are so competitive and push so hard.

[1] my goblinoids are all one race, where hobgoblins and bugbears are temporary "enhancements" added to goblins by their tribe to fill various needs. Goblins are the children of chaos, so they're extremely adaptable and have a shared tribal memory at the sub-conscious level; taking a goblin from their tribe leaves something like a human-intelligence cat--insanely curious and with basically no short-term memory. A scary thought. And humans (and orcs) were artificially created (by elves) from hobgoblins to try to "lock in" the potential there without needing the whole shared-memory or tribal dependence.

[2] There were multiple Titan-Wyrm[3] wars in early pre-history. The last one was started by the titans creating this orb that would drain the power out of the wyrm, making them helpless. Well...creating it drained the power out of about half their own people (the ancestors of the dwarves) and then using it kinda messed up the remainder of both races and making runic power no longer really functional anywhere. As a result, the titans became the goliaths, while the wyrm became the dragons.

[3] the progenitor species of the dragons. Not locked to a single element, basically elemental creations of death/destruction/ending. Originally designed as the counterparts to the titans--the titans built while wyrm broke down the leftover pieces for re-use. After the Dawn War when Chaos/Change rebelled and the planes were ordered, that kinda went out the window and cooperation stopped.

[Ralanr]

oh tbc I don't have dragonborn as mindless servants of dragons, just a race created by dragons to be warriors in the dragon/giant war who still possess free will and can and do rebel (or just flee the draconic regions)

Similarly I don't have Goliaths as giant vassals, they're just there doing goliath things while also having a shared origin story with giants and orcs and things.

I could ramble about my own lore for ages but its well off topic.

Idk where you got that dragonborn were mindless servants of dragons. That relates closer to kobolds if anything.

The actual origins of what dragonborn are, aren't established. There's just a vague story in 4e with three possibilities linked to the god Io, which I think has been retconned out of existence in the new dragon book. So maybe that will update us on dragonborn origins.

Note I don't mean to present myself as downplaying your lore. It hits a lot of similar beats I'd hit as well.

[Amnestic]

Idk where you got that dragonborn were mindless servants of dragons. That relates closer to kobolds if anything.

The actual origins of what dragonborn are, aren't established. There's just a vague story in 4e with three possibilities linked to the god Io, which I think has been retconned out of existence in the new dragon book. So maybe that will update us on dragonborn origins.

Note I don't mean to present myself as downplaying your lore. It hits a lot of similar beats I'd hit as well.

In 3.5 they were an 'artificial' race of those who chose/were chosen by Bahamut to go through a special ritual that had them enter a magic egg, becoming reborn as dragonborn versions of their old race, combining racial traits of both their new form and their old race.

Races of the Dragon pg. 8:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561287824964452363/897919393663688734/unknown.png

[Ralanr]

In 3.5 they were an 'artificial' race of those who chose/were chosen by Bahamut to go through a special ritual that had them enter a magic egg, becoming reborn as dragonborn versions of their old race, combining racial traits of both their new form and their old race.

Races of the Dragon pg. 8:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561287824964452363/897919393663688734/unknown.png

That I knew, but from 4e onwards has separated them from that. Especially given the lack of other Dragonborn types to represent those races.

[strangebloke]

What were they originally?



Dragonborn arise in two ways:
* "natural" dragonborn arise whenever dragons settle around and interact with goblinoids[1] or humans on a generational time-scale. These do not necessarily breed true. They're the "dragon" equivalent of genasi/tieflings/aasimar
* "artificial" dragonborn (long thought of as the only ones due to a paucity of dragons in the area they arose in) were created by a human empire by fusing pieces of dragon soul with unborn children in an attempt to create super-soldiers. These ones breed true, but are limited in number and are only found in one small area in the world.

Goliaths, on the other hand, are one of the original races, except diminished. Specifically the Titans of myth and legend weren't always huge--they normally were basically goliaths, but with runic powers to transform themselves (and their environment). Due to some bad decisions[2], they degenerated and split into two races--dwarves and goliaths. Goliaths possess runic technology to transform members of their race into giants, but it's risky. Failures either die or become the giant-kin (which breed true). This leads to giants and goliaths being mostly in mixed groups--becoming a giant (being selected for that transformation) is the reason that many goliath cultures are so competitive and push so hard.

[1] my goblinoids are all one race, where hobgoblins and bugbears are temporary "enhancements" added to goblins by their tribe to fill various needs. Goblins are the children of chaos, so they're extremely adaptable and have a shared tribal memory at the sub-conscious level; taking a goblin from their tribe leaves something like a human-intelligence cat--insanely curious and with basically no short-term memory. A scary thought. And humans (and orcs) were artificially created (by elves) from hobgoblins to try to "lock in" the potential there without needing the whole shared-memory or tribal dependence.

[2] There were multiple Titan-Wyrm[3] wars in early pre-history. The last one was started by the titans creating this orb that would drain the power out of the wyrm, making them helpless. Well...creating it drained the power out of about half their own people (the ancestors of the dwarves) and then using it kinda messed up the remainder of both races and making runic power no longer really functional anywhere. As a result, the titans became the goliaths, while the wyrm became the dragons.

[3] the progenitor species of the dragons. Not locked to a single element, basically elemental creations of death/destruction/ending. Originally designed as the counterparts to the titans--the titans built while wyrm broke down the leftover pieces for re-use. After the Dawn War when Chaos/Change rebelled and the planes were ordered, that kinda went out the window and cooperation stopped.

pretty similar to how I handle things. I also have greyskins/giantkin as their own race, born of chaos. As children of chaos, forms reflect their spirits and their environment and needs. Goblins are greyskins that have been forced into survival mode and have adopted a small, furtive form to better ensure survival. Orcs are greyskins who have "gone orc" and have adopted a perpetually violent posture for whatever reason. Goliaths are greyskins who've adopted an austere, competitive outlook.

Giants represent the peak of capability for greyskins, though 'capability' here isn't strictly positive. A disgusting hedonistic hill giant may be impressive in their raw excess, but most greyskins will view a hill giant as scum of the earth and a waste of potential.

dragonborn are like warforged in that they were created for a war that is no longer occurring and therefore seek their own purpose while not really having existed as their own independent civilization at any point. You find a lot of dragonborn expats in distant ports and they're often viewed with mistrust because a fear of draconic tyranny is ingrained in the psyche of most peoples (Most dragons that interact with younger peoples are tyrants, even if many are beneficent tyrants). So dragonborn are hated for being suspected agents of the dragons even as they are fleeing draconic rule themselves.

Idk where you got that dragonborn were mindless servants of dragons. That relates closer to kobolds if anything.

I know, I thought you thought I had them as mindless slaves.

Silly misunderstanding.

[Brookshw]

Solution(out of the box): remove gnomes from the game entirely. Problem solved! :smallbiggrin:


This is always the solution. ALWAYS!

I have a long standing beef with gnomes and banned them from games for years. One day, people I had been playing with for years and were well aware I despised that race, decided to mess with me and create an all gnome party. It did not end well for them....:smallamused:

[PhoenixPhyre]

This is always the solution. ALWAYS!

I have a long standing beef with gnomes and banned them from games for years. One day, people I had been playing with for years and were well aware I despised that race, decided to mess with me and create an all gnome party. It did not end well for them....:smallamused:

I've soft-banned gnomes from my setting--they all disappeared 250 years ago after the Cataclysm. It's a soft ban because I know they still exist in isolated pockets, but no party has gone to the trouble of finding them and bringing them back into communion with the rest of the world.

Except the mechagnomes (sort of like the ones from this UA, except more cyborg and less robot). A party did find a group of them and guide them back to the real world and out of their demi-plane factory/lab/thing. Still haven't statted them up as a playable race yet...laziness is a real affliction.

[Dork_Forge]

I feel pretty gneutral about gnomes, but I see people tend to hate them, why is that?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I feel pretty gneutral about gnomes, but I see people tend to hate them, why is that?

It's taken me now 5 years of pondering to figure out what their unique niche would be, compared to
* goblins
* halflings
* kobolds
* dwarves

[Ralanr]

It's taken me now 5 years of pondering to figure out what their unique niche would be, compared to
* goblins
* halflings
* kobolds
* dwarves

I assumed it was tinkering/being more foresty compared to them.

Like the elf version of halfings.

[Millstone85]

I assumed it was tinkering/being more foresty compared to them.

Like the elf version of halfings.My headcanon is that gnomes are descended from dwarves who settled in the Feywild, becoming more whimsical and nature-loving over generations while keeping their love for gems, metals and craftsmanship. In any case, I see them as an interesting blend of dwarven and elven traits.

Plus, their gods are in Bytopia, which is, in my opinion, the best of the Upper Planes. So yeah, I actually really like gnomes.

Whereas halflings... only become interesting to me when they start riding dinosaurs or eating people in the desert.

[strangebloke]

I feel pretty gneutral about gnomes, but I see people tend to hate them, why is that?

There's nothing wrong with them, but they are often seen as discordant with the rest of the setting, in the same way that warforged or tabaxi or thri-keen or giff or kender might be.

IMO, anyway.

They're meant to be keebler elves. Santa Elves. Cheerful Tinkerers who ride badgers and live in toadstools and have magical hearts full of whimsy. They're fairy tale characters. Garden Gnomes with adventurer levels. But if you're not doing a fairy tale setting, you're trying to do something more... realistic isn't the right word. Bleak? Austere? Gnomes make less sense. I don't usually see them run in the manner they're intended. I've never seen a party run across an honest-to-bahamut gnome village in the forest. More often I've seen gnomish inventors in urban workshops. That's a pretty narrow typecasting, and runs into the problem I described above where it feels like they're a race of hats moreso than a real people group.

[Ralanr]

My headcanon is that gnomes are descended from dwarves who settled in the Feywild, becoming more whimsical and nature-loving over generations while keeping their love for gems, metals and craftsmanship. In any case, I see them as an interesting blend of dwarven and elven traits.

Plus, their gods are in Bytopia, which is, in my opinion, the best of the Upper Planes. So yeah, I actually really like gnomes.

Whereas halflings... only become interesting to me when they start riding dinosaurs or eating people in the desert.

I have never considered gnomes to be related to dwarves but I'll admit your connection makes some sense. I still can't see it because gnomes are not nearly hairy enough to be somewhat related to dwarves in my mind.

[KorvinStarmast]

More often I've seen gnomish inventors in urban workshops. That's a pretty narrow typecasting, and runs into the problem I described above where it feels like they're a race of hats moreso than a real people group. My brother has a 'gnomehome' area in the main campaign area that is the central part of the continent's homeland. And of course, pranksters who like to use illusions and drink beer. As a player, I put up with it and restrained my more murderous instincts since the rest of the players were mostly cool with the whole thing.

[strangebloke]

My brother has a 'gnomehome' area in the main campaign area that is the central part of the continent's homeland. And of course, pranksters who like to use illusions and drink beer. As a player, I put up with it and restrained my more murderous instincts since the rest of the players were mostly cool with the whole thing.

Why are they happy! Why should they be happy?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I assumed it was tinkering/being more foresty compared to them.

Like the elf version of halfings.

Meh. But that's got the same sort of heavily split-brain issue that elves do (and that 4e tried to fix, but then got reverted in 5e):
* One side is the "I'm a sylvan forest lover"
* The other side is a steampunk (gnome) | crystal-spires-and-arcane-magics (elf) freak.

Both in the same base race. And dwarves have the tinkering, and restricting gnomes to just forests seems...narrow.


My headcanon is that gnomes are descended from dwarves who settled in the Feywild, becoming more whimsical and nature-loving over generations while keeping their love for gems, metals and craftsmanship. In any case, I see them as an interesting blend of dwarven and elven traits.

Plus, their gods are in Bytopia, which is, in my opinion, the best of the Upper Planes. So yeah, I actually really like gnomes.

Whereas halflings... only become interesting to me when they start riding dinosaurs or eating people in the desert.

Halflings are the product of magical fallout affecting goblins. They're matriarchal and almost eu-social, with a third neuter "gender". They breed in large packs and defend themselves in human (ok, halfling) waves, throwing the neuter "workers" at the problem until it goes away.

I've finally decided that gnomes are similar to plane-touched--it's what happens when a fey influence sits on a group of goblins for long enough. So forest gnomes are goblins whose ancestors were strongly influenced by "naturey" fey forces. "rock" gnomes are the result of more civilization-obsessed fey[1] influencing a group of goblins. All gnomes have the natural curiosity of goblins, tempered by the lack of the goblin shared-memory space and influenced by the obsessive nature of the fey. So instead of being fad-driven at the tribal level[2], gnomes just get obsessed about something as individuals.

[1] My fey are what you get when you take nature spirits (normally bodiless, genderless, and really not particularly human in thought) and get them obsessed with something relating to mortals. Could be an emotion, could be a lifestyle pattern, could be an idea. This makes fey basically "trying to act like mortals" without really understanding them. And being effectively caricatures of one small area, taken to extremes.

[2] Goblins don't think as individuals much. But if one of them gets an idea, the others around will tend to cluster on that idea...until someone else gets a grand idea, which sends the tribe careening off in a different direction. Makes them insanely creative...but hopeless at organization and putting consistent thought to things. Basically, they're a race of self-reinforcing ADD sufferers. One of the reasons they make hobgoblins is that hobs aren't tied to the tribal memory as strongly, so they can act as leaders and as a stabilizing influence. This means that a tribe of goblins working hand in hand with a more stable race can do wonders--the more stable race acting as a brake and an anchor to the flighty goblin minds.

[Amechra]

I still can't see it because gnomes are not nearly hairy enough to be somewhat related to dwarves in my mind.

Their culture calls upon them to spend two hours a day shaving.

This is, coincidentally, why dwarves and gnomes are perpetually at war.

[Ralanr]

Their culture calls upon them to spend two hours a day shaving.

This is, coincidentally, why dwarves and gnomes are perpetually at war.

Dwarf: “You dare bring a straight razor? How do I know you won’t shave my beard in my sleep?”

Gnome: I’m sorry, but last I remembered you were the one pilfering our loot on your watch. If you’d been watching Steve would be ok.

[EggKookoo]

I have never considered gnomes to be related to dwarves but I'll admit your connection makes some sense. I still can't see it because gnomes are not nearly hairy enough to be somewhat related to dwarves in my mind.

In pre-AD&D, I think gnomes were specifically called out as a type of dwarf.

My setting gnomes are subterranean and weird and unearthly, almost alien. They also turn to stone when they sleep, or at least some do.

[Millstone85]

They're meant to be keebler elves. Santa Elves. Cheerful Tinkerers who ride badgers and live in toadstools and have magical hearts full of whimsy.Exactly! Look, this could be a Christmas illustration:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/7/73/Rock_gnome_arcane-5e.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/700


They're fairy tale characters. Garden Gnomes with adventurer levels. But if you're not doing a fairy tale setting, you're trying to do something more... realistic isn't the right word. Bleak? Austere? Gnomes make less sense.Speaking of moving gnomes to a bleak setting, it ever amuses me that where you get duergar instead of dwarves, drow instead of elves, and grimlocks instead of humans, you "only" get svirfneblin instead of gnomes.

[Ralanr]

Speaking of moving gnomes to a bleak setting, it ever amuses me that where you get duergar instead of dwarves, drow instead of elves, and grimlocks instead of humans, you "only" get svirfneblin instead of gnomes.

And out of all of those, the svirfneblin are actually good*

*For the Underdark.