I MISUNDERSTOOD! The new CR book, and a new adventure book, AND MORE

[jaappleton]

Previously I made this topic

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636273-WOTC-is-making-another-Critical-Role-book

And I stated WOTC was working on another Critical Role book, and that it was an adventure book similar to Candlekeep Mysteries.

I misunderstood. That information is not correct.

WOTC is, indeed, working on a new CR book. And if you watch the show, you can guess what it is... Its indeed a campaign book. I can't confirm 100%, but its very safe to say it would be a campaign setting for Marquet, where Campaign 3 of the show takes place.

Marquet is very much middle east inspired. I'm not saying its similar to Al Quadim, because that setting can be considered quite problematic by todays standards, but it very much does evoke that sort of vibe.

So that's the Critical Role book.

And they are, indeed, working on a different book. An adventure book.

Code named Constellation.

Couple that code name with what just released today as Unearthed Arcana... I'm told its more of a 'multiverse' book than specifically a 'Spelljammer' book.

Also...

Look for a dragon islands adventure set near the Sword Coast of Faerun in the future. Jeopardy is the name of that one.

[Dark.Revenant]

Look for a dragon islands adventure set near the Sword Coast of Faerun in the future. Jeopardy is the name of that one.

Holy crap they're actually remaking Council of Wyrms?

[Unoriginal]

WOTC is, indeed, working on a new CR book. And if you watch the show, you can guess what it is... Its indeed a campaign book. I can't confirm 100%, but its very safe to say it would be a campaign setting for Marquet, where Campaign 3 of the show takes place.

Marquet is very much middle east inspired. I'm not saying its similar to Al Quadim, because that setting can be considered quite problematic by todays standards, but it very much does evoke that sort of vibe.

Given the kind of stunts the CR team has done in the past, I have no doubt that their 3rd campaign will at least reach the "considered quite problematic by today's standards" level.

I also have no doubt they're going to lose a significant amount of their fanbase before the 3rd campaign reaches the 20th episode due to that and the resulting flame wars.

The question is: will it be enough/quick enough for WotC to cut their losses on that CR book? We'll see soon enough.




And they are, indeed, working on a different book. An adventure book.

Code named Constellation.

Couple that code name with what just released today as Unearthed Arcana... I'm told its more of a 'multiverse' book than specifically a 'Spelljammer' book.

"Good news, everyone! Crystal Sphere Express is back in business, again!"




Also...

Look for a dragon islands adventure set near the Sword Coast of Faerun in the future. Jeopardy is the name of that one.

Dragon islands... Jeopardy... Double Dragon, Double Jeopardy?

[Dork_Forge]

Given the kind of stunts the CR team has done in the past, I have no doubt that their 3rd campaign will at least reach the "considered quite problematic by today's standards" level.

I also have no doubt they're going to lose a significant amount of their fanbase before the 3rd campaign reaches the 20th episode due to that and the resulting flame wars.

The question is: will it be enough/quick enough for WotC to cut their losses on that CR book? We'll see soon enough.


I'm not a CR fan and I've never seen it to any degree, what kind of thing are you referring to?

[Ralanr]

I am all for an Arabian Setting so yes please.

[Luccan]

I'm not a CR fan and I've never seen it to any degree, what kind of thing are you referring to?

I've seen the whole second campaign and I could not tell you what they mean

[jaappleton]

Given the kind of stunts the CR team has done in the past, I have no doubt that their 3rd campaign will at least reach the "considered quite problematic by today's standards" level.

I also have no doubt they're going to lose a significant amount of their fanbase before the 3rd campaign reaches the 20th episode due to that and the resulting flame wars.

The question is: will it be enough/quick enough for WotC to cut their losses on that CR book? We'll see soon enough.

WOTC still employs Mike Mearls.

That should really be all you need to know regarding if they'd cut bait.

[Unoriginal]

I'm not a CR fan and I've never seen it to any degree, what kind of thing are you referring to?


I've seen the whole second campaign and I could not tell you what they mean

Can't go into it due to forum rules, but let's just say that several in the CR cast have made comments or did actions that were pretty controversial on matters related to the topics of real-life race-related prejudices and representation, and all of them have refused to address the issues when it was their fans being jerks to other fans based on those same topics.


WOTC still employs Mike Mearls.

That should really be all you need to know regarding if they'd cut bait.

Fair enough, but I was more talking about if WotC would stop the cooperation if CR lost large chunks of its customer base.

[jaappleton]

Can't go into it due to forum rules, but let's just say that several in the CR cast have made comments or did actions that were pretty controversial on matters related to the topics of real-life race-related prejudices and representation, and all of them have refused to address the issues when it was their fans being jerks to other fans based on those same topics.



Fair enough, but I was more talking about if WotC would stop the cooperation if CR lost large chunks of its customer base.

The CR fanbase at times can be... not great. That's 100% true. Some are incredibly vocal and are... I want to find the right word... Overzealous? I think that might suffice. And I think you know and I both exactly know what I mean.

Regarding some actions the cast did... Sam Riegal once had a character, an Artificer (Original UA version) who was homosexual. And almost as a comedic bit, slept with a woman. It was seen by many as making light of homosexuality. FWIW, I don't for one second believe Sam to be at all homophobic. That's strictly my own personal opinion, and for whatever its worth, I'm absolutely not at all straight. Nonetheless, it was a very bad look, it was absolutely unnecessary.

And CR's biggest than its ever been with no signs of slowing down. Yes, I'm aware of the twitch leak. CR make 9 million over the last few years off Twitch, and suddenly everything thinks they're evil or something because they've had success.... I'd like to remind people they have a staff of nearly 50 people, plus the rental space of the studio. A 900 square foot home in LA, with no yard or off street parking, goes for over one million dollars. What do you think the cost of the studio space is? Plus everyones salaries? Health insurance? Overhead is enormous when you account for everything.

[Dr.Samurai]

It's not all of a sudden, to be clear. This sort of resentment toward successful people has been a thing for years now. So if people find out that you're successful, the Eye of Sauron notices you too.

[jaappleton]

It's not all of a sudden, to be clear. This sort of resentment toward successful people has been a thing for years now. So if people find out that you're successful, the Eye of Sauron notices you too.

It is rather amazing to me how some fans went from,

"The cast is so amazing they deserve ALL the good things!"

To going

"WAIT THEY MAKE HOW MUCH HOW COULD THEY BE SO EVIIIIIILLLLLLLLL?!?!?!?!?"

Truly, genuinely, I find it very disturbing.

[Dork_Forge]

Overhead is enormous when you account for everything.

I'm not touching the rest because of the rules, but thank you for providing that context.

Regarding the last part though, I feel you are doing your point a disservice by framing it this way. Overhead is enormous, but if that figure is solely Twitch income, it likely makes them a very profitable business alone. I assume they also have a Youtube means of distribution, merchandise, and I'd assume other things like licensing kickbacks from WotC, and they must be paid for appearances at events.

[Unoriginal]

Nonetheless, it was a very bad look, it was absolutely unnecessary.

And it was not the only time equally bad looks happened, in-game or not. Like Liam O'brian's comments toward Marisha Ray's 2nd campaign character, and how the artworks for that character he selected. But again, can't really discuss those topics because of forum rules.


And CR's biggest than its ever been with no signs of slowing down.

True for the first part, but I'd debate the second.

I could be completely wrong, of course, but from what I've seen, the early signs have started to show up. Granted they're early enough signs that the cast could react and change things, but I don't think they will until it's too little, too late.



and suddenly everything thinks they're evil or something because they've had success...

It's not because they've had success, people were overjoyed for them to have success. Pretty sure people were more peeved and shocked about CR suddenly and openly going "legally, fan artists' works are ours, and we need to protect our money" after years of acting as if they were friends of the little guys (while still making free money out of those fan artists).

[jaappleton]

It's not because they've had success, people were overjoyed for them to have success. Pretty sure people were more peeved and shocked about CR suddenly and openly going "legally, fan artists' works are ours, and we need to protect our money" after years of acting as if they were friends of the little guys (while still making free money out of those fan artists).

I will say this... I agree this in particular is not a good look.

However

The way copyright laws work, essentially CR is backed into a corner. They need to have these policies out there so that if they need to start enforcing copyright laws, they are able to.

Without these policies, everything sort of becomes free use and when they try to enforce it, any judge is going to say, "Well what about these 5487498657 other instances where you did nothing?"

Again, I don't necessarily agree with it. But... I get it.

[Zhorn]

Well I'm looking forward to this book. Cheers for fishing out some of the details.

As for all the other stuff... nontroversies.
That folks reacting the loudest in any population rarely turn out to be a majority.
And as far as the business decisions and numbers being revealed, none of it has been shocking once you look at the context of the size of the business that CR is.

[TyGuy]

Can't go into it due to forum rules, but let's just say that several in the CR cast have made comments or did actions that were pretty controversial on matters related to the topics of real-life race-related prejudices and representation, and all of them have refused to address the issues when it was their fans being jerks to other fans based on those same topics.

Any chance you can share what key words to Google? I'm really curious what controversies are circling that community.
Personally I feel like the crew cultivates and sm deserves it all, so I have a sort of schadenfreude from watching them reap what they sow.

[Dr.Samurai]

That really surprises me. I have never watched an episode of CR but I have seen some clips and they seem like real wholesome people...

[Zhorn]

That really surprises me. I have never watched an episode of CR but I have seen some clips and they seem like real wholesome people...
From memory there was only one cast member that really caused issues, and they were ousted from the crew during the first campaign.
For the rest though they genuinely are wholesome and watching them with some of their charity work they've done over the years and how regularly they've used their platform to draw attention to those charities shows they do really mean well.

But having a big audience means you are a big target, and there are some folks out there that just get their jollies off seeing others that having been doing better than them get taken down a peg or two.

On the 'representation' side, they are actors and occasionally portray characters outside their own personal experiences or with traits that show there's a greater array of people other there than just the players at the table. For the sane people out there this is entirely harmless since they are player a single character, not representing EVERY PERSON that has that one single trait, but again; big audience. There are obsessive people in the fandom that latch onto characters too strongly; "This character is literally ME" or "This is character represents ALL PEOPLE of <trait x>", and when it doesn't line up with what they personally wanted they get angry and they get loud.
But as mentioned above, the loudest doesn't represent the majority. You just catch more crazies with a bigger net, and the net that is the CR fandom is pretty big.

If you come across any stories about the cast doing something horrible, usually going to the source and getting the context pretty reliably shows it was a mountain out of a molehill.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

It's not because they've had success, people were overjoyed for them to have success. Pretty sure people were more peeved and shocked about CR suddenly and openly going "legally, fan artists' works are ours, and we need to protect our money" after years of acting as if they were friends of the little guys (while still making free money out of those fan artists).

No, it's the success. The fact that ANYONE thought these people were anything less than successful people running a business were fooling themselves.

I mean, let's take away the CR success itself. These people are some of the most respected names in the Voice Acting Industry. Jaffe is essentially American royalty coming as the grandson of George Axelrod. His story even reads that way, he was a successful child actor until he decided it was ridiculous and he didn't care and walked away.

Only Mercer really fits the mold of "One of us who made it." having been a small time gamer, cosplayer and nerd like us until he started VA work.

Pointing out that they own their own IP and that anyone else using their IP is technically out of line is an unfortunate requirement. Because otherwise they can't claim their IP. That's never been not true, and the fact that they chose not to put it in concrete didn't make it not true.

The reality is, a great many people built them up as small indie group of friends who are one of us and then got upset when their own false narrative was challenged by them being financially successful.


Regarding the last part though, I feel you are doing your point a disservice by framing it this way. Overhead is enormous, but if that figure is solely Twitch income, it likely makes them a very profitable business alone. I assume they also have a Youtube means of distribution, merchandise, and I'd assume other things like licensing kickbacks from WotC, and they must be paid for appearances at events.

They are paid for events. You know why? Because They're Illidan Stormrage, Turaylon, Jaina Proudmore, Rexar. They're McCree, they're Kid Trunks, Shin Chan, Gaara of the Sand, Roy Mustang...

These people were rich before CR started. They've never not been rich while CR has existed and never claimed not to be. I'm unsure why the idea of putting a number on it makes it an issue in any way.

[jaappleton]

No, it's the success. The fact that ANYONE thought these people were anything less than successful people running a business were fooling themselves.

I mean, let's take away the CR success itself. These people are some of the most respected names in the Voice Acting Industry. Jaffe is essentially American royalty coming as the grandson of George Axelrod. His story even reads that way, he was a successful child actor until he decided it was ridiculous and he didn't care and walked away.

Only Mercer really fits the mold of "One of us who made it." having been a small time gamer, cosplayer and nerd like us until he started VA work.

Pointing out that they own their own IP and that anyone else using their IP is technically out of line is an unfortunate requirement. Because otherwise they can't claim their IP. That's never been not true, and the fact that they chose not to put it in concrete didn't make it not true.

The reality is, a great many people built them up as small indie group of friends who are one of us and then got upset when their own false narrative was challenged by them being financially successful.



They are paid for events. You know why? Because They're Illidan Stormrage, Turaylon, Jaina Proudmore, Rexar. They're McCree, they're Kid Trunks, Shin Chan, Gaara of the Sand, Roy Mustang...

These people were rich before CR started. They've never not been rich while CR has existed and never claimed not to be. I'm unsure why the idea of putting a number on it makes it an issue in any way.

I can confirm Mercer drove a busted as hell like 1995 Camry during the infancy of CR.

[Dork_Forge]

They are paid for events. You know why? Because They're Illidan Stormrage, Turaylon, Jaina Proudmore, Rexar. They're McCree, they're Kid Trunks, Shin Chan, Gaara of the Sand, Roy Mustang...

These people were rich before CR started. They've never not been rich while CR has existed and never claimed not to be. I'm unsure why the idea of putting a number on it makes it an issue in any way.

You may have misunderstood what I said.

I never judged them for being successful, I have never seen an episode, I have no intention of doing so and the only feelings I have about them are 'huh a DnD animated show would be neat again' and 'darn it why do all these new players think a potion is a bonus action'

I addressed what I saw as a flawed concept regarding their monetary situation. Please do not push upon that or me, any kind of judgement or negativity that I have not exhibited.

And I have no idea if they were rich before CR, I severely doubt it to be honest given what they do and where they must live to do it, but nor do I care or think it's relevant in any way.

[Rynjin]

People vastly overestimate how much money even the most successful voice actors that run in the same circles as Mercer make.

For reference, I'm pretty sure Sean Schemmel and Christopher Sabat fall firmly into the "upper middle class" tax bracket, at best.

That should really tell you all you need to know about VA salaries, at least when it comes to just getting paid by the gig.

Edit: Looking it up, Sabat has a total net worth of $8 million. So he's far from hurting, but he doesn't even really meet a reasonable metric of "rich" the way most people would judge it. He's I think the highest paid American anime dub/video game voice actor in terms of how much he gets paid yearly for solely his work in acting (and line producing, etc.). Schemmel is at a net worth of $3 million for comparison.

Some fun facts, this is about 1/6th of what Dan Castellanata makes, and a much, much smaller fraction of what somebody like Seth McFarlane does.

Matt Mercer, specifically, makes about $80 grand a year from acting. So, you know, he makes a bit more than my mom did working for the Florida Department of Transportation. "Rich guy", eh?

Video game and anime voice actors just don't get paid all that much in the grand scheme even compared to OTHER VOICE ACTORS, much less "real" actors.

TL;DR: Get that bread Mercer.

[Temperjoke]

On these forums, just mention something from CR, and a number of the people here will start frothing at the mouth regardless.

AAAAAANYWAYS

I'm really interested in seeing the possible Spelljammer book!

[jaappleton]

On these forums, just mention something from CR, and a number of the people here will start frothing at the mouth regardless.

AAAAAANYWAYS

I'm really interested in seeing the possible Spelljammer book!

MULTIVERSE book. An adventure book.

I believe this was the 'peak at a classic setting' referenced during the recent D&D Celebration.

[Temperjoke]

MULTIVERSE book. An adventure book.

I believe this was the 'peak at a classic setting' referenced during the recent D&D Celebration.

Yes, yes, but even if it's not explicitly a "Spelljammer" the fact that it's a multiverse adventure means there's a strong possibility that it's going to touch on a lot of Spelljammer territory.

[jaappleton]

Yes, yes, but even if it's not explicitly a "Spelljammer" the fact that it's a multiverse adventure means there's a strong possibility that it's going to touch on a lot of Spelljammer territory.

100% agreed.... if the adventure book sells well.

I think it could easily be a tactic by WOTC.

"You want Spelljammer? Put your money where your mouth is."

[Thunderous Mojo]

MULTIVERSE book. An adventure book.

I believe this was the 'peak at a classic setting' referenced during the recent D&D Celebration.

I agree. The fact the original Spelljammer had no adventures written for it, just box sets and ship construction rules, would fit the section of Ray W's prophecy of "Old setting in a format never seen before".

While this could mean an entirely new media format, turning a 'Setting' into and Adventure also fits.

A Spelljamming Adventure set partially in the Astral Sea is should have Githyanki and Mind Flayers in it. I love Neogi as well...so a Neogi Master and thralls would be great as well. (Plus Neogi Master are a good value for a DM's XP budget )

Given that PCs that finish the Wilds Beyond the Witchlight will be 8th level, I wonder if this Spelljamming Joint will dovetail nicely.

It would be cool to have a Campaign start in the Feywild and finish in the Far Realm.

[Dienekes]

That really surprises me. I have never watched an episode of CR but I have seen some clips and they seem like real wholesome people...

Eh, I’m not surprised there’s some controversy. I don’t watch them myself, but I understand they’re just a bunch of comedic improv actors that are tasked with performing engaging comedy storytelling in front of a live audience for hundreds of hours.

Some jokes won’t land. Others will be harmless and people will take offense anyway. Sometimes there will be unintended implications. And sometimes people just have an off day. That’s all normal.

Honestly I wouldn’t worry about such things unless they start actively bullying a subgroup or spreading hate purposefully.

[Sparky McDibben]

Previously I made this topic

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636273-WOTC-is-making-another-Critical-Role-book

And I stated WOTC was working on another Critical Role book, and that it was an adventure book similar to Candlekeep Mysteries.

I misunderstood. That information is not correct.

WOTC is, indeed, working on a new CR book. And if you watch the show, you can guess what it is... Its indeed a campaign book. I can't confirm 100%, but its very safe to say it would be a campaign setting for Marquet, where Campaign 3 of the show takes place.

Marquet is very much middle east inspired. I'm not saying its similar to Al Quadim, because that setting can be considered quite problematic by todays standards, but it very much does evoke that sort of vibe.

So that's the Critical Role book.

And they are, indeed, working on a different book. An adventure book.

Code named Constellation.

Couple that code name with what just released today as Unearthed Arcana... I'm told its more of a 'multiverse' book than specifically a 'Spelljammer' book.

Also...

Look for a dragon islands adventure set near the Sword Coast of Faerun in the future. Jeopardy is the name of that one.

I mean, I'm not super excited for another CR book, honestly. The last one wasn't exactly revolutionary, and if I want an Arabian setting, I can just use Kobold Press' Southlands. That being said, more books is still more books, so yay. I am definitely interested in a multiverse book, though. It might be Spelljammer...but it might also be Planescape.

And a dragon islands adventure makes me think of B. Dave Walters' A Darkened Wish comic, which I think takes place in a similar locale. That might be interesting. I didn't really like that comic, and I don't know how you'd get that series of events without railroading the PCs hard.


WOTC still employs Mike Mearls.

That should really be all you need to know regarding if they'd cut bait.

Ladies and gentlemen, the "Burn of the Year" award goes to Mr. Appleton for dropping some truth-bombs.


Regarding the last part though, I feel you are doing your point a disservice by framing it this way. Overhead is enormous, but if that figure is solely Twitch income, it likely makes them a very profitable business alone. I assume they also have a Youtube means of distribution, merchandise, and I'd assume other things like licensing kickbacks from WotC, and they must be paid for appearances at events.

OK, but that's not really accurate. We know they have a fair bit of revenue, but we know nothing about their profitability. These are related but separate financial metrics (sorry, this is my literal job, so I get tetchy when they're mixed up). We will know nothing about CR's profitability until they publish an audited 10-K. Finally, you're conflating revenue that goes to the company (Twitch subs, etc) with revenue that goes to the owners (appearance payments). Their other employees don't see a dime of the "owner money." Also, I will never understand the panic button that goes off when folks realize their favorite content creators are "cashing in."

Not saying you were panicking or anything there, Forge, but I wanted to jump in an clarify a a couple points.

[Tawmis]

And they are, indeed, working on a different book. An adventure book.
Code named Constellation.


I wouldn't be surprised if this is somehow Dragonlance related.
Between the deal they settled with Weis and Hickman.
The recent (soon to be released) Fizban's book of Dragons.
Fizban being a Dragonlance specific character.
And Constellations were a BIG part of Dragonlance (the gods represented in the stars).

[jaappleton]

I wouldn't be surprised if this is somehow Dragonlance related.
Between the deal they settled with Weis and Hickman.
The recent (soon to be released) Fizban's book of Dragons.
Fizban being a Dragonlance specific character.
And Constellations were a BIG part of Dragonlance (the gods represented in the stars).

From what I have been told, Dragonlance isn't involved with the Constellation project.

[Dork_Forge]

OK, but that's not really accurate. We know they have a fair bit of revenue, but we know nothing about their profitability. These are related but separate financial metrics (sorry, this is my literal job, so I get tetchy when they're mixed up). We will know nothing about CR's profitability until they publish an audited 10-K. Finally, you're conflating revenue that goes to the company (Twitch subs, etc) with revenue that goes to the owners (appearance payments). Their other employees don't see a dime of the "owner money." Also, I will never understand the panic button that goes off when folks realize their favorite content creators are "cashing in."

Not saying you were panicking or anything there, Forge, but I wanted to jump in an clarify a a couple points.

I mean you can get all kinds of technical with those terms, but I was more referring to the realistic use of them:

The money coming in outstrips their mandatory expenses.

Actual profits are just money sitting around getting taxed, assuming they have good accountants they'd want to out as much behind expenses as they can.

Since the use of the word profit triggered this I will reframe what I said as: They are realistically, incredibly well off.

And to clear up the 'Also' onwards:

1) I'm not a fan, I've never seen an episode, part of an episode, or even a clip. It just doesn't interest me.

2) I have nothing whatsoever against them being financially successful, I love when people can make their hobbies successful careers and don't feel ill-will towards their success at all. As someone that makes 90% of their income from 5E, it's very nice and aspirational to see.

[SirDidymus]

I agree. The fact the original Spelljammer had no adventures written for it, just box sets and ship construction rules, would fit the section of Ray W's prophecy of "Old setting in a format never seen before".

While this could mean an entirely new media format, turning a 'Setting' into and Adventure also fits.
]

There were a few adventures back in the day. I played Wildspace a couple times and I've been tempted to try to update it for 5E.

[Sparky McDibben]

I mean you can get all kinds of technical with those terms, but I was more referring to the realistic use of them:

The money coming in outstrips their mandatory expenses.

Actual profits are just money sitting around getting taxed, assuming they have good accountants they'd want to out as much behind expenses as they can.

Since the use of the word profit triggered this I will reframe what I said as: They are realistically, incredibly well off.

Again, we don't know that. $9M in revenue is extremely small. If they have $10M in expenses (easily possible for a 50-person operation), their profits are negative. Without knowing their expenses, we cannot know their profitability. End of story. And really, we don't even know their revenue line entire, much less COGS, SG&A, or even D&A. So, no, we cannot make any assumptions about the financial health of their enterprise.


And to clear up the 'Also' onwards:

1) I'm not a fan, I've never seen an episode, part of an episode, or even a clip. It just doesn't interest me.

2) I have nothing whatsoever against them being financially successful, I love when people can make their hobbies successful careers and don't feel ill-will towards their success at all. As someone that makes 90% of their income from 5E, it's very nice and aspirational to see.

Yes, I know. You stated that previously. That's why I included the last sentence in my original post, so you wouldn't have to repost this. The line you're responding to wasn't directed at you, but I can see why you thought it might be. I'll try to be more clear in the future!

[Dark.Revenant]

All I'll comment on the topic of the Twitch leak:

When I saw what CR made on Twitch, my immediate response was "that's all?"

[Dork_Forge]

we cannot make any assumptions about the financial health of their enterprise.


I'm not going to reply to the rest because I can see you're just going to argue against it unless we see SEC filings. But the quoted doesn't make sense to me, they've been doing this for years, we certainly can assume that they're doing well enough to keep doing it, whilst paying region suitable wages.

[Chronic]

Let's be honest, CR probably got more from Amazon for the diffusion of the animated series than they did from twitch for their streams, considering how much platform overpay for hype content these days.

[jaappleton]

Let's be honest, CR probably got more from Amazon for the diffusion of the animated series than they did from twitch for their streams, considering how much platform overpay for hype content these days.

I have no hard evidence to back this up but I'd bet that CR's highest profit margin is on merch.

[Sparky McDibben]

I'd actually doubt that the highest margin is on merchandise - I'd suspect the highest margin is on any licensing deals they have with WotC. And given that animation is a very time-intensive and high-value-add process, I think the margin is probably pretty low there. They're definitely getting a revenue stream, but my guess is that it's close to less than 10% of the total Amazon revenue.

[Dork_Forge]

I'd actually doubt that the highest margin is on merchandise - I'd suspect the highest margin is on any licensing deals they have with WotC. And given that animation is a very time-intensive and high-value-add process, I think the margin is probably pretty low there. They're definitely getting a revenue stream, but my guess is that it's close to less than 10% of the total Amazon revenue.

But wasn't the actual production paid for via a Kickstarter? Even if the 11 million or whatever it was doesn't cover the entire bill, it must cover most of it, leaving the Amazon deal to mostly be gravy. A quick google shows Attack on Titan is $5 million+ per season, and I doubt that we'll end up with the production quality of a hit anime.

[togapika]

Also, I will never understand the panic button that goes off when folks realize their favorite content creators are "cashing in.".

I don't watch CR, and while I do have problems arising FROM their existence, them getting rich isn't one of them.
My only real problems are: 1, Folks wanting to try and be "the next CR" when they haven't even made sure their campaign will last 2 sessions, let alone 2 years. 2. Folks not realizing that these are all trained voice actors who STARTED with a budget for their game, as they didn't start streaming their game until Felicia Day hired them to do so.

[Sparky McDibben]

But wasn't the actual production paid for via a Kickstarter? Even if the 11 million or whatever it was doesn't cover the entire bill, it must cover most of it, leaving the Amazon deal to mostly be gravy. A quick google shows Attack on Titan is $5 million+ per season, and I doubt that we'll end up with the production quality of a hit anime.

Unknown but doubtful; there are a ton of rules about what you can use Kickstarter money for...and what you can't. The Amazon deal just added two extra episodes and then a second season. There's also not a lot of clarity about who owns which episodes and where those revenue streams are going. We also don't know the particulars of the Amazon deal - is it just distribution? A full share? Is marketing included? Et cetera, et cetera.

I mean, there is a world in which the Amazon deal is mostly gravy, but there are several worlds in which the Amazon deal doesn't work out so well.


I don't watch CR, and while I do have problems arising FROM their existence, them getting rich isn't one of them.
My only real problems are: 1, Folks wanting to try and be "the next CR" when they haven't even made sure their campaign will last 2 sessions, let alone 2 years. 2. Folks not realizing that these are all trained voice actors who STARTED with a budget for their game, as they didn't start streaming their game until Felicia Day hired them to do so.

Excellent points. Don't work for free, kids.

[Zhorn]

I have no hard evidence to back this up but I'd bet that CR's highest profit margin is on merch.
Agreed. selling merchandise tends to be what a lot of productions get budgeted around. When you look at popular cartoons with really good casting/plot/writing still getting canceled despite really high ratings, it's usually down to poorly managed merchandising, where all the effort was put into stuff for a different age bracket than what the actual audience turned out to be, like making a munch of toys for boy aged 5-12, but the main viewing audience was even mixed genders aged 18-30 who don't buy the toys and don't have any merch aimed at them.


I don't watch CR, and while I do have problems arising FROM their existence, them getting rich isn't one of them.
My only real problems are: 1, Folks wanting to try and be "the next CR" when they haven't even made sure their campaign will last 2 sessions, let alone 2 years. 2. Folks not realizing that these are all trained voice actors who STARTED with a budget for their game, as they didn't start streaming their game until Felicia Day hired them to do so.
Pretty close. It was a home game for 2 years before Felecia got Geek and Sundry involved. Originally it was just a low key home game that spun off from a oneshot Matt Mercer did for Liam O'Brien as a belated birthday gift (Dec 2012). In the early day's it was very close to your average home games with snacks, people talking over each other, featureless combat grids, etc. There's some camera phone clips floating around from before it started streaming, and the only thing 'remarkable' was that mostly everyone was from the voice actor industry, and even then is started as a mixed group using friend of friends of work colleagues to pad the group out. The budget came later, but even then it was a slow ramp up, moving from a home game into filming in the geek and sundry office space (March, 2015) to have access to a bigger room with cameras, dressing that up for a couple of year, then to their own studio by year 3 (2018) for the start of their second campaign.
You overall point though is right on the money, people are trying to be the next Critical Role and think they can just jump into the high production, high engagement format when they haven't tackled that fundamental issue of having a stable group that can handle the consistent time commitment.


But wasn't the actual production paid for via a Kickstarter? Even if the 11 million or whatever it was doesn't cover the entire bill, it must cover most of it, leaving the Amazon deal to mostly be gravy. A quick google shows Attack on Titan is $5 million+ per season, and I doubt that we'll end up with the production quality of a hit anime.
From my understanding it went:
Shopping around the idea for a Critical Role animated special (single 30min episode)
No production companies were interested in funding it, not seeing it as having enough market appeal
CR decide to try and do it independently, start the kickstarter to get ~$750,000
The kickstarter goes crazy good
Production plans expand for it to be a multi episode series
Then amazon comes in, seeing the market interest and throws extra money at the project in exchange for exclusive airing/distribution
Production plans expand to ~24 episodes over 2 seasons

As far as the quality of animation, expect something a fair bit more detailed than Justice League but slightly less detailed than Castlevania.

[Quietus]

From my understanding it went:
Shopping around the idea for a Critical Role animated special (single 30min episode)
No production companies were interested in funding it, not seeing it as having enough market appeal
CR decide to try and do it independently, start the kickstarter to get ~$750,000
The kickstarter goes crazy good
Production plans expand for it to be a multi episode series
Then amazon comes in, seeing the market interest and throws extra money at the project in exchange for exclusive airing/distribution
Production plans expand to ~24 episodes over 2 seasons

I believe it was two episodes to start, but otherwise, that lines up with what I know of.

For reference on the quality of the animation, this is the title sequence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eRRwcTdhtE

[Dark.Revenant]

I believe it was two episodes to start, but otherwise, that lines up with what I know of.

For reference on the quality of the animation, this is the title sequence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eRRwcTdhtE

If the show's overall animation quality is similar to the title sequence, then it definitely wasn't cheap. In fact, I don't expect the animation to be that dynamic in the majority of scenes, because otherwise the cost would be too high. That would be a lot of key-frames.

[jjordan]

I'm told its more of a 'multiverse' book than specifically a 'Spelljammer' book.
Coupled with the Unearthed Arcana that was recently released I feel as though they may be viewing 'multiverse' through a 'Spelljammer' lense. Which makes sense because that's a gloss that can be applied on top of the existing structure rather than a fundamental reworking of the structure. I prefer the latter but I can understand why WotC would not; this allows them to experiment and re-work Spelljammer in ways that they probably couldn't get away with if this book was explicitly a Spelljammer port.

I will probably order and enjoy the new CR book. Any campaign book that has a non-Western orientation/flavor to it is going to catch a lot of criticism even if it doesn't contain any flagrant mistakes. There are some people who will just take offense rather than offering corrections that educate and, in my opinion, make the game better. I'm fine with them making money (while they may be earning upper-tier actor money I doubt they have become millionaires from this work) even if I really don't like most of their fanbase (the vocal ones I see posting some really hurtful **** in various forums).

[Quietus]

If the show's overall animation quality is similar to the title sequence, then it definitely wasn't cheap. In fact, I don't expect the animation to be that dynamic in the majority of scenes, because otherwise the cost would be too high. That would be a lot of key-frames.

Perhaps. They've also put out a more traditional animated scene, they previewed it at NYCC, with them dubbing over it in real time. Link below, this one is considerably less dramatic/epic, but should give an idea the animation quality in slower moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYSVcn60ik

[Ralanr]

Coupled with the Unearthed Arcana that was recently released I feel as though they may be viewing 'multiverse' through a 'Spelljammer' lense. Which makes sense because that's a gloss that can be applied on top of the existing structure rather than a fundamental reworking of the structure. I prefer the latter but I can understand why WotC would not; this allows them to experiment and re-work Spelljammer in ways that they probably couldn't get away with if this book was explicitly a Spelljammer port.

I will probably order and enjoy the new CR book. Any campaign book that has a non-Western orientation/flavor to it is going to catch a lot of criticism even if it doesn't contain any flagrant mistakes. There are some people who will just take offense rather than offering corrections that educate and, in my opinion, make the game better. I'm fine with them making money (while they may be earning upper-tier actor money I doubt they have become millionaires from this work) even if I really don't like most of their fanbase (the vocal ones I see posting some really hurtful **** in various forums).

Bolded for emphasis, but I thought that's how Spelljammer, and the D&D multiverse worked. With the crystal orbs and what not.

[Dark.Revenant]

Perhaps. They've also put out a more traditional animated scene, they previewed it at NYCC, with them dubbing over it in real time. Link below, this one is considerably less dramatic/epic, but should give an idea the animation quality in slower moments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYSVcn60ik

I reiterate my assessment: this ain't budget animation.

[Chronic]

I'd actually doubt that the highest margin is on merchandise - I'd suspect the highest margin is on any licensing deals they have with WotC. And given that animation is a very time-intensive and high-value-add process, I think the margin is probably pretty low there. They're definitely getting a revenue stream, but my guess is that it's close to less than 10% of the total Amazon revenue.

The animation was financed pretty much fully by the kick-starter. And considering how platform overpay hype content, I'd be surprised if they didn't get at least a 100% margin on it, payed upfront. Plus the money for season 2. Amazon prime buy ****ty movies for 80 million dollars juste to get a 2 day buzz, and good animation is really hard to get this days. The Japanese animation production system is at its limit, you can't have a good studio producing a show for you, the delay is 4 to 5 years right now since their schedule is full, even lesser studios are hard to get these days. So I'm pretty sure they payed a premium to the CR company to get their show.

[Veldrenor]

Previously I made this topic

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636273-WOTC-is-making-another-Critical-Role-book

And I stated WOTC was working on another Critical Role book, and that it was an adventure book similar to Candlekeep Mysteries.

I misunderstood. That information is not correct.

WOTC is, indeed, working on a new CR book. And if you watch the show, you can guess what it is... Its indeed a campaign book. I can't confirm 100%, but its very safe to say it would be a campaign setting for Marquet, where Campaign 3 of the show takes place.

Marquet is very much middle east inspired. I'm not saying its similar to Al Quadim, because that setting can be considered quite problematic by todays standards, but it very much does evoke that sort of vibe.

So that's the Critical Role book.

Critical Role just announced pre-orders for a CR campaign book called Call of the Netherdeep (https://critrole.com/hype-call-of-the-netherdeep-our-dungeons-dragons-adventure-module-is-available-for-pre-order-right-now/). The page says that the adventure begins in Xhorhas and then travels to Marquet, so maybe you didn't misunderstand? Or maybe they're doing both this adventure book and a Marquet setting book?

[jaappleton]

Critical Role just announced pre-orders for a CR campaign book called Call of the Netherdeep (https://critrole.com/hype-call-of-the-netherdeep-our-dungeons-dragons-adventure-module-is-available-for-pre-order-right-now/). The page says that the adventure begins in Xhorhas and then travels to Marquet, so maybe you didn't misunderstand? Or maybe they're doing both this adventure book and a Marquet setting book?

They're doing both the adventure book, and another campaign setting for Marquet.

[Wildstag]

The Spelljammer push really hurts my dreams of seeing Planescape. Admittedly, their adoption of The Forgotten Realms as default setting hurts just as much, since Planescape is incompatible with the World Tree multiverse setting in TFR.

Shame that Council of Wyrms doesn't get the same nostalgia factor spelljammer coasts on.

[Unoriginal]

The Spelljammer push really hurts my dreams of seeing Planescape. Admittedly, their adoption of The Forgotten Realms as default setting hurts just as much, since Planescape is incompatible with the World Tree multiverse setting in TFR.

World Tree is not the reference planar structure for FR, in 5e.

All the 5e books make clear the planar stuff is mostly Planescape.

In-universe, no mortal actually know for sure how the planes are, but the Great Wheel is the favored model for most people used to planar travel (in a kind of "atoms as planets with the electrons as moons" simplification).

[Ralanr]

World Tree is not the reference planar structure for FR, in 5e.

All the 5e books make clear the planar stuff is mostly Planescape.

In-universe, no mortal actually know for sure how the planes are, but the Great Wheel is the favored model for most people used to planar travel (in a kind of "atoms as planets with the electrons as moons" simplification).

I imagine this is why high level NPC casters like Tasha and Mordenkainen are generally kind of jerks. They've been around so many other worlds that your concerns are petty.

Oh my god, it's Rick Sanchez...

[Unoriginal]

I imagine this is why high level NPC casters like Tasha and Mordenkainen are generally kind of jerks. They've been around so many other worlds that your concerns are petty.

Oh my god, it's Rick Sanchez...

Tasha and Mordenkainen are pretty terrible people independently of that stuff.

So is Rick Sanchez.

[Millstone85]

Planescape is incompatible with the World Tree multiverse setting in TFR.
World Tree is not the reference planar structure for FR, in 5e.What Unoriginal said.

Now, the World Tree does get mentioned in the DMG as an alternative cosmology, and I would ask: Is it truly incompatible with the Great Wheel?


The Outlands is circular, like a great disk. In fact, those who envision the Outer Planes as a wheel point to the Outlands as proof, calling it a microcosm of the planes. That argument might be circular, since the arrangement of the Outlands inspired the idea of the Great Wheel in the first place.
Similarly, one vision of the planes where the deities of the Forgotten Realms reside situates a number of celestial planes in the branches of a World Tree, while the fiendish planes are linked by a River of Blood. Neutral planes stand apart from them. Each of these planes is primarily the domain of one or more deities, though they are also the homes of celestial and fiendish creatures.It could be said that sages debating the precise arrangement of the planes simply based their models on their favourite transitive planes.

Or, and that's my preferred take, the Outlands shows the big picture but the World Tree / River of Blood combo is more relevant to Torillian interests. Indeed, it links Toril to specific regions of various outer planes, where that world's gods reside.

[jaappleton]

The Spelljammer push really hurts my dreams of seeing Planescape. Admittedly, their adoption of The Forgotten Realms as default setting hurts just as much, since Planescape is incompatible with the World Tree multiverse setting in TFR.

Shame that Council of Wyrms doesn't get the same nostalgia factor spelljammer coasts on.

Planescape is Chris Perkins favorite setting by far. His interest in working on that has not waned.

I don't know definitively if it's actively being worked on at the moment. Believe me, that and if Psionics are being worked on are my two top priorities in terms of uncovering secrets.

The interest is absolutely there, as far as Planescape. That's all I can say definitely.

[GeoffWatson]

I believe it was two episodes to start, but otherwise, that lines up with what I know of.

For reference on the quality of the animation, this is the title sequence : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eRRwcTdhtE

There's plenty of animation where the title sequence is much, much better than (most of) the rest of the show.

[Ralanr]

There's plenty of animation where the title sequence is much, much better than (most of) the rest of the show.

This might be more accurate. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYSVcn60ik&t=34s)

[ProsecutorGodot]

This might be more accurate. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSYSVcn60ik&t=34s)

I wouldn't expect every second of a bar scene to be animated to the highest standards. We can expect the best animation to be in moments of combat since, you know, this is a dungeons and dragons cartoon about heroic adventurers doing battle with evil beasts and baddies. Once we get a few proper combats in I'll be comfortable making my own judgements.

That said, I do expect a lot of the show to be a bit stiff, there will be many sweeping camera angles with blurred faces and scenes where little movement beyond some hand gesturing, walk cycling and lip flapping happens. That's just how animation is.

[Wildstag]

Yeah, I'm kinda surprised to hear that the World Tree part of the cosmology was changed. I could have sworn that was part of The Forgotten Realms going back to 2e at least. Well that's good news. I just recall seeing it in the DMG and had missed the word "Alternate".

[Ralanr]

I wouldn't expect every second of a bar scene to be animated to the highest standards. We can expect the best animation to be in moments of combat since, you know, this is a dungeons and dragons cartoon about heroic adventurers doing battle with evil beasts and baddies. Once we get a few proper combats in I'll be comfortable making my own judgements.

That said, I do expect a lot of the show to be a bit stiff, there will be many sweeping camera angles with blurred faces and scenes where little movement beyond some hand gesturing, walk cycling and lip flapping happens. That's just how animation is.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. Not everything's gonna be Castlevania level, and even Castlevania had some spotty areas (probably, I never saw any noticeable issues).