Tiamat, Very Beatable By A Standard 4 Person Party?

[MaXenzie]

Back when Tyranny of Dragons released in 2014, the people of GiantITP went nuts (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?379445-Tiamat-unbeatable-by-a-standard-4-person-party) over her statblock, and many people deemed her nigh-unbeatable, save for some really obscure, impossible-to-build-in-an-actual-game builds and flagrant disregard for rules like "sneak up on the dragon with blindsight and kill her while surprised."

It's been 7 years since the release of Tyranny of Dragons, and many many many (by 5e's standards at least) books have been made and published, adding several new items, subclasses, and features to the game. 5e's also become a lot more optimized in this time, and people tend to be far better at crafting character builds.

So! Let's run this back, and see:
What 4-man, level 20 party can take on Tiamat in 2021?

List out the build, any magic items it requires, and, if need be, any Unearthed Arcana or otherwise opt-in rules the DM would need to accept before the build would work (like Chronurgy Magic.)

[Eldariel]

We had a thread talking about beating her with a single character (depending on ruling on size) or with a substantially lower level party a while back (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630508-Killing-Tiamat-inside-a-Forcecage). Not everyone agrees of course, but it seems like many found it reasonable to argue that she is beatable in Tier 3 for a strong party even without magic items or additional content and almost any reasonable party in Tier 4.

[MaXenzie]

We had a thread talking about beating her with a single character (depending on ruling on size) or with a substantially lower level party a while back (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630508-Killing-Tiamat-inside-a-Forcecage). Not everyone agrees of course, but it seems like many found it reasonable to argue that she is beatable in Tier 3 for a strong party even without magic items or additional content and almost any reasonable party in Tier 4.

I always knew Forcecage would be able to mess her up.

To throw my suggestion in, 4 Divination/Chronurgy wizards can force Tiamat to fail all of her saves vs Banishment more than 5 times, which instantly defeats her by sending her straight to Avernus once more.
During the legendary breath attacks the attacked wizards can cast Absorb Elements to tank the damage, so they should be relatively fine.

[Chaos Jackal]

Here's a thread of a lv14 PHB party taking her on. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?632872-Level-14-party-vs-Tiamat-Take-2) It's certainly on the upper end of optimization, but still abides by the limitations of the time, and doesn't even have magic items. It's party tactics that make the real difference.

But they're still just lv14. Tiamat was never very strong or hard to beat by a lv20 party; it was lack of system mastery and inexperience with the edition that made people fret. Even disregarding the possibility of just casting forcecage (let's not go down that rabbit hole again) we've come really far from the first days of 5e in our understanding of the game.

I'm not gonna claim any party can take her down, but if you add in splatbooks the options expand radically, and you don't even need to optimize too much. Add in even the most basic of items (like magic weapons) and the possibilities expand even more.

Lv20 characters, particularly spellcasters, are absurdly strong and can chew through her numbers really quickly.

Edit: swordsage'd.

[Envyus]

Hey there, original op of the original Tiamat Thread. Still of the opinion the Forcecage strategy is crock. Any Adult Dragon let alone Tiamat is too big to fit in a force cage.

[Chaos Jackal]

Hey there, original op of the original Tiamat Thread. Still of the opinion the Forcecage strategy is crock. Any Adult Dragon let alone Tiamat is too big to fit in a force cage.

I won't rehash the Tiamat in a forcecage argument (and ancient dragons by extension), but you're simply wrong about adult dragons. All of them are Huge and Huge is 15x15. There's no issue with upper limit here; even if you wanna argue that Huge goes up to 20x20, which is the minimum for a Gargantuan creature, that's still cageable. RAW, there is absolutely nothing, not even an obscure upper limit, that allows a Huge creature to avoid a barred forcecage.

And good thing that, as you can see in the provided links, she's perfectly beatable by a strong but still PHB-only party at lv14 without putting her in a forcecage as long as they use good tactics. Allowing options from books released throughout the years and raising the level to 20 makes a large number of half-competent parties more than viable at taking her on.

[Dork_Forge]

I won't rehash the Tiamat in a forcecage argument (and ancient dragons by extension), but you're simply wrong about adult dragons. All of them are Huge and Huge is 15x15. There's no issue with upper limit here; even if you wanna argue that Huge goes up to 20x20, which is the minimum for a Gargantuan creature, that's still cageable. RAW, there is absolutely nothing, not even an obscure upper limit, that allows a Huge creature to avoid a barred forcecage.

And good thing that, as you can see in the provided links, she's perfectly beatable by a strong but still PHB-only party at lv14 without putting her in a forcecage as long as they use good tactics. Allowing options from books released throughout the years and raising the level to 20 makes a large number of half-competent parties more than viable at taking her on.

Beatable? Sure, but since you're relying on the previously run simulation in a different thread I will point out for anyone looking here the following things that said simulation relied on:

1) two simulacra

2) multiple planar bound creatures

3) everyone having Phantom Steeds

4) The party being at full resources and health

5) a ruling that a readied wall spell (wall of stone, wall of force) can be used to block a breath as it happens

6) using spells to gain meta-knowledge of her block beforehand

7) prebuffing to the highest possible degree

8) it was ran in the map from the adventure, yet the verticality of the location wasn't used at all, meaning that she was reduced to playing a 2D game as a creature with a high fly speed

This is not just 'good tactics' it involves favourable rulings and an amount of preparation that you'd likely never see, or be able to achieve in any actual table play beyond white room strategy and simulating those strategies.

[Eldariel]

Beatable? Sure, but since you're relying on the previously run simulation in a different thread I will point out for anyone looking here the following things that said simulation relied on:

1) two simulacra

A given for anyone who can cast it.


2) multiple planar bound creatures

One each. There's factually no limit so this is underselling the power of a tier 3 party. No Magic Jar was used too.


3) everyone having Phantom Steeds

This is a given since level 5 in a party with Wizards. No reason not to be constantly conjuring Phantom Steeds whenever moving.


4) The party being at full resources and health

That was the question. Can a level 14 party defeat her, not can a depleted level 14 party.


5) a ruling that a readied wall spell (wall of stone, wall of force) can be used to block a breath as it happens

This is fair, this ruling was indeed used.


6) using spells to gain meta-knowledge of her block beforehand

A given for this level; otherwise the characters are plain not using their abilities.


7) prebuffing to the highest possible degree

Could've done more. Magic Jar was not used in spite of it being great in this adventure path (and in general). The Simulacrums and minions didn't use any spell slots before the fight meaning e.g. Elemental Weapon VII took an action.


8) it was ran in the map from the adventure, yet the verticality of the location wasn't used at all, meaning that she was reduced to playing a 2D game as a creature with a high fly speed

This is simply because of her size. She can't fit the towers in the map. And remember, I specifically raised her size due to objections towards her being too small. This was not my decision.

[Chaos Jackal]

To get back to the OP's question, combining 4 wizards like you mentioned can indeed do a number, even without planar binding and simulacrum (which are both perfectly reasonable to have been used, but we got a lot of people in the last thread acting like these spells are some secret high-op trick and/or cheese so let's not use them).

Eldariel, as a matter of fact, has proposed a number of full caster parties in the past (sorry for the constant referencing Eldariel, but your posts do come in handy); one of them is full wizard, an illusionist, a diviner, a chronurgist and a bladesinger. Said party can easily win initiative (Portent, Temporal Awareness, gift of alacrity, bladesinger's likely more than solid Dex, Alert feat is very common on casters and these characters are lv20 so more than enough time and ASIs to get it), has access to absurd amounts of field manipulation thanks to forcecage, wall of force and other battlefield control spells (whether Tiamat is cageable or not doesn't mean she can't be blocked) as well as Illusory Reality (which absolutely wrecks Tiamat), packs extra tricks and actions in the form of contingency and Arcane Abeyance , solid damage thanks to the bladesinger, summoning capabilities and shapechange (or is that "forbidden" like simulacrum and planar binding?) and can even go for crunching through Legendary Resistance thanks to Portent and Convergent Futures, all while being capable of staying at range, blocking most attacks and bearing the brunt of whatever goes through thanks to shield and absorb elements. Honestly, you've got way more tools than you need to take Tiamat down like that; you don't even need perfect tactics. If you add simulacrum, planar binding, magic jar or true polymorph it's not even funny; really, with the LR crunching strategy you can potentially even take her out "for good" by chewing through her resistance and then turning her into a pebble or something with true polymorph (which affects her), which you then seal up in your demiplane. No more god of evil dragons.

A more intriguing question would be taking down Tiamat with a party that isn't casters only, maybe even a party that lacks full casters altogether, though given the insane DPR capabilities of some high-level martial builds you can probably manage to brute force through her defenses and beat her on numbers alone. Really, the biggest issue for some parties with little to no caster support is the potential lack of magical weapons, which would mean that four CBE SS EA Piercer samurai for example (who, for the record, have 46 DPR each with advantage and 4 heavy crossbow attacks against AC 25 and without factoring in the potential reroll, as well as high initiative, the Dex and HP to tank a few breaths and the ability to fire with advantage even if Tiamat gets in their faces) can't just obliterate her in three turns through Action Surge. But like I said in a previous post, if you add magical weapons (and other items) the potential parties increase greatly (the aforementioned samurai, for instance, go from 46 to 74 DPR with +3 weapons, so outside of being able to pierce Tiamat's damage immunity they can also reliably take her out within two turns).

[Foxhound438]

Does Tiamat not have a burrow speed? I get that she's really big, but with godly strength and draconic abilities (which should include a blue dragon's burrow), it shouldn't be a problem for her to drill through granite like it's a stack of leaves.

(I've never played all the way through that campaign, just the first bits two or three separate times before games fell apart)


As an aside, maybe big dumb creatures, to include non-casting character classes, should be given some kind of abilities to get around the walls of force of the world? It always seemed kind of cheap to me that wall of force is just categorically undefeatable except by exactly disintegrate. You would think a strong enough push would be able to overload and break it or something.

[Chaos Jackal]

Does Tiamat not have a burrow speed? I get that she's really big, but with godly strength and draconic abilities (which should include a blue dragon's burrow), it shouldn't be a problem for her to drill through granite like it's a stack of leaves.

(I've never played all the way through that campaign, just the first bits two or three separate times before games fell apart)


As an aside, maybe big dumb creatures, to include non-casting character classes, should be given some kind of abilities to get around the walls of force of the world? It always seemed kind of cheap to me that wall of force is just categorically undefeatable except by exactly disintegrate. You would think a strong enough push would be able to overload and break it or something.

The power of force constructs is indeed a sore point.

As for Tiamat, no. She has no burrow speed, she has no spellcasting (outside of divine word 3/day), she has no teleportation abilities, she doesn't even have blindsight like dragons do (she has truesight, but that won't really help her against a fog cloud for instance). She's more powerful than the other CR30 statblock currently in existence (the tarrasque) because she has flight and ranged/area capabilities as well as regeneration and higher mental stats, but she's still not a complex opponent and lacks versatility. She's essentially a flying brute with a very big cleave ability and a massive Frightening Presence, which just won't cut it for a reasonable lv20 party (or even lower, as showcased).

We're getting a CR30 statblock of her avatar in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, and I sincerely hope it'll be a big bump and not a reprint (even though it's gonna be a bit funny in case her avatar turns out to be stronger by what is supposed to be her actual full manifestation in RoT).

[Foxhound438]

The power of force constructs is indeed a sore point.

As for Tiamat, no. She has no burrow speed, she has no spellcasting (outside of divine word 3/day), she has no teleportation abilities, she doesn't even have blindsight like dragons do (she has truesight, but that won't really help her against a fog cloud for instance). She's more powerful than the other CR30 statblock currently in existence (the tarrasque) because she has flight and ranged/area capabilities as well as regeneration and higher mental stats, but she's still not a complex opponent and lacks versatility. She's essentially a flying brute with a very big cleave ability and a massive Frightening Presence, which just won't cut it for a reasonable lv20 party (or even lower, as showcased).

We're getting a CR30 statblock of her avatar in Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, and I sincerely hope it'll be a big bump and not a reprint (even though it's gonna be a bit funny in case her avatar turns out to be stronger by what is supposed to be her actual full manifestation in RoT).

I'd be willing to forgive that as a consequence of applying stats to things in the context of the stories they're supposed to be in. In tyranny, you're supposed to be able to beat Tiamat and save the world at about 14th level. If fizban's has a stronger version, it's probably because the avatar in that campaign is supposed to be more threatening to a stronger party. Still a bit weird that she didn't have all the abilities normal to other dragons though.

[Chaos Jackal]

I'd be willing to forgive that as a consequence of applying stats to things in the context of the stories they're supposed to be in. In tyranny, you're supposed to be able to beat Tiamat and save the world at about 14th level. If fizban's has a stronger version, it's probably because the avatar in that campaign is supposed to be more threatening to a stronger party. Still a bit weird that she didn't have all the abilities normal to other dragons though.

Do note that you're not supposed to beat Tiamat at lv14 (even though it's doable); if you even fight her at all, and don't stop the ritual completely instead, you're expected to face a severely weakened version (we're talking huge chunks off all her numbers, offensive and defensive). The CR30 version is supposed to be the "you lose" version, the one that should prove your failure (and the fact that it doesn't is kinda sad).

Regarding her rather bare bones statblock, she's one of the first creatures ever published, and likely designed too; you can guess it from other discrepancies such as her Frightening Presence (which, at 240ft, is twice the size of the same-CR tarrasque and anything else ever printed) or the fact that all her breaths are Dex saves, rather than some of them being Con as per the corresponding dragon. Hell, she doesn't even have a breath or a bite as an action; she can only use them as Legendary Actions.

Part of the reason why I'm curious to see her new statblock in Fizban's; it's literally a new age Tiamat.

[Eldariel]

Do note that you're not supposed to beat Tiamat at lv14 (even though it's doable); if you even fight her at all, and don't stop the ritual completely instead, you're expected to face a severely weakened version (we're talking huge chunks off all her numbers, offensive and defensive).

To extrapolate upon this, things that weaken her:
1. Kill specific caster or steal an item from them
2. Make more than five of the casters unable to concentrate on ritual for two rounds in a row
3. Get one of five items e.g. in an earlier part of the adventure
4. Damage the ritual site
5. Deal with few enemies in the same dungeon.

Of these, you're pretty much automatically going to do two (3 and 5), you have plenty of resources for 4 (you've got numerous high level caster NPCs for the larger battle one of which could cast some area damage spells), and staying alive through the 10 rounds of battle without doing 1 or 2 is pretty hard. To that end, I'd say you're extremely likely to get at least 2-3 of those and have a fair chance at 4 if you have some foresight.

Now, relevant parts of Tiamat statblock:

AC 25
615 HP; Regeneration 30; Immune to nonmagic weapons
Saves: Str +19, Dex +9, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +17, Cha +9; Legendary Resistance x5; Immune to 6th level and lower spells
Attacks: 2x+19 for 24 & +19 for 28
Bonus action: Divine Word 3/day

Legendary Actions:
5x Bite for +19 for 32 + 14
2x Breath DC 27 for 120' lineat 67/88 or 90' cone at 77/91/72


Debuffs are in order:
1. -75 HP, all damage -15
2. -75 HP, no regeneration, weapon immunity becomes resistance
3. -75 HP, no spell immunity
4. -75 HP, -5 to AC/attack bonus/save DC
5. -75 HP, only 1 breath/3 bites

So, at two debuffs she looks like this:

AC 25
465 HP; Resistance to nonmagic weapons
Saves: Str +19, Dex +9, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +17, Cha +9; Legendary Resistance x5; Immune to 6th level and lower spells
Attacks: 2x+19 for 9 & +19 for 13
Bonus action: Divine Word 3/day

Legendary Actions:
5x Bite for +19 for 17 + 14
2x Breath DC 27 for 120' line at 52/73 or 90' cone at 62/76/57

Which is...high damage still (76+73 = 149 breath damage per round at DC27 Dex though her active attacks tickle at best) but defensively she goes from a creature with ~900-odd effective HP (in my fight she lasted 11 rounds so 300 points of healing from Regen 30) to one with ~450, which is basically a halving of damage needed for the kill, and she's vulnerable to summon attacks from anyone with the immunity dropping to resistance (though her high AC still means she's probably mostly for PCs to take down. But even ~20-50 damage from underlings matters when she loses half of her effective HP and a significant portion of her offensive output (Bite gets nerfed the hardest of course; it goes from 5x46 = 230 to 5x31 = 155 - from being able to chew a PC dead in a round to being maybe able to down one).

Tactically losing Regeneration is also particularly devastating (though losing 15 damage on all attacks hurts too) since it means she can no longer disengage to regenerate vs. less mobile opposition and then come back in a few rounds at full HP. This makes her tactically even more of a simple brute with her one tactically useful ability removed (though of course, the adventure path makes it hard for her to use this option anyways).

At max debuffs she looks like this:

AC 20
240 HP; Resistance to nonmagic weapons
Saves: Str +19, Dex +9, Con +10, Int +8, Wis +17, Cha +9; Legendary Resistance x5
Attacks: 2x+14 for 9 & +14 for 13
Bonus action: Divine Word 3/day

Legendary Actions:
3x Bite for +14 for 17 + 14
1x Breath DC 22 for 120' line at 52/73 or 90' cone at 62/76/57

At which point she's less hardy than many CR20 monsters (which a level 14 party can generally wipe the floor with) and her offense is down to her breath against which PCs particularly with any buffs like Aura of Protection or Bless are actually rolling at a fairly decent likelihood of success and she only gets 1/turn. She still resists most spells but now she's vulnerable to Eldritch Blasts, Chill Touches and such, which further adds to her frailty in this state. She's got 1/4th the HP of the full power version which combined with lacking immunities means your average level 14 attackers can put her full of holes pretty quickly. And of course she can be spammed with low level spells at her Cha/Int/Dex forcing her to burn her LRs opening up an easier avenue to abuse save-or-X effects earlier.

[JonBeowulf]

I still believe it was a bad decision to stat the real version/manifestation/incarnation/whatever of demigods and above. They're not supposed to be defeated. Provide their abilities and fluff, sure, but not their stats.

If a 4-member level 20 group of mortals can defeat her, then one or two of her enemies should have taken her out millennia ago.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The Tyranny of Dragons Tiamat is certainly beatable by a 20th level group.
Wether the task is 'Easy' is going to depend upon terrain, and the tactical prowess of the DM and players.

A true representation of Tiamat should be larger than Gargantuan. Tiamat is colossal. The Tyranny of dragons stat block is wonky...technically Tiamat can only use breath weapons as Legendary Actions. If no creatures are around Tiamat, she technically can't spew death like a Dragon should.

If a DM mods Tiamat to be able to fly, strafe with 5 Breath Weapons, and then pounce and crush people under her massive body...the answer to the question will likely change.

As a player in a very High powered, "This Eberron Campaign goes to 11" style of game, my group of a Psi Warrior, an Enchanter Wizard, an Artillerist Artificer, and Storm Sorcerer defeated Tiamat at level 10.

Now the group had many Legendary Items to help us out, and one really, overpowered, magic enchantment on the Psi Warrior's sword that allowed the group to succeed.

Firstly the Sorcerer has a Planar Gate. Tiamat, (the Daughter of Kyber), was going to take over Eberron, so we summoned the Daelkyr Drynn with a Gate spell and hid.

Tiamat takes down Drynn, but the DM reduced Tiamat's HP, and most importantly ruled Tiamat had expended a usage of Legendary Resistance.

The Enchanter casts Haste on the Psi Warrior. The spell casters can't use spells directly on Tiamat..but each due to pre-buffing can survive a single blast of Tiamat's breaths...so they start distracting Tiamat and use the terrain and things like Rope Trick to hide.

The Psi Warrior uses Psi Powered Leap to fly to the back side of Tiamat's neck and starts going Snickersnack.

The Psi Warrior's Magic Sword has acquired an Enchantment, (acquired through great personal sacrifice), that has a 15% chance upon a hit to cast Banishment on the Daughter of Kyber.

Action Surge(s) + Luck + some Potions of Catnap and Tiamat was banished.

Even with all these Advantages, the party likely would have died the round Tiamat got Banished.

As a side note, the DM ran the same encounter with their Children, whom used the Planar Gate to flee Eberron, without fighting Tiamat.😉. ....smart kids‼️

[Dork_Forge]

A given for anyone who can cast it.

The casting time is 12 hours and it costs 1,500GP per Simuclarcum, they don't regen their casting or hp RAW. So no, it isn't a given that anyone that can have one would have one, it could easily have been destroyed without time or resources to replace, or it could be present but in a state of damage and partially expended resources.

Assuming things like this is just white room, like how you favour crossbows for low levels, but don't really consider affording everything.


One each. There's factually no limit so this is underselling the power of a tier 3 party. No Magic Jar was used too.

Prep time required and creatures that need to make it to the encounter. The whole planar bind an army thing is certainly a style of play, but it is not a given and requires more prep time.

Magic Jar is also not a given to work successfully if a party were to even use it.


This is a given since level 5 in a party with Wizards. No reason not to be constantly conjuring Phantom Steeds whenever moving.

No it is not a given that a party would burn time creating Phantom Steeds, a mount that becomes useless after a single point of damage.

I think your 'given' is more reflective if your table style, rather than anything else.


That was the question. Can a level 14 party defeat her, not can a depleted level 14 party.

It's relevant to the question, especially if the context of her appearance is being used. It's not, or at least shouldn't, be often that a party has a single encounter in a day, with downtime days beforehand.


This is fair, this ruling was indeed used.

And played a significant part in the strategy used.


A given for this level; otherwise the characters are plain not using their abilities.

No not a given, the kind of divinations used are highly DM dependent on their answers and require yet more preptime.


Could've done more. Magic Jar was not used in spite of it being great in this adventure path (and in general). The Simulacrums and minions didn't use any spell slots before the fight meaning e.g. Elemental Weapon VII took an action.

And could have done less. You can't say Magic Jar is great for this, whilst also not liking the idea of the party being depleted, it's not pick and choose. You either have the context of getting to her, or it's a white room you walk into and she's there.


This is simply because of her size. She can't fit the towers in the map. And remember, I specifically raised her size due to objections towards her being too small. This was not my decision.

Funny, when I originally brought this up your response was:


Sure, but that doesn't stop her from being fired upon so it's irrelevant.


It was my understanding originally that you just didn't realise those towers were available, after all they're spread over different maps and easy to miss. However now your answer is changing.

It 100% was down to how you ran things, and having a flying creature not utilise vertical space that's there does hinder them, after all, multiple times the Help action was used against her.

I've no problem with it being possible to defeat her, but if that simulation is going to be pointed to, then the circumstances surrounding it should also be used, like the ruling that creatures can squeeze at will when not confined by anything.

[Envyus]

I won't rehash the Tiamat in a forcecage argument (and ancient dragons by extension), but you're simply wrong about adult dragons. All of them are Huge and Huge is 15x15. There's no issue with upper limit here; even if you wanna argue that Huge goes up to 20x20, which is the minimum for a Gargantuan creature, that's still cageable. RAW, there is absolutely nothing, not even an obscure upper limit, that allows a Huge creature to avoid a barred forcecage.

It's nothing to do with size categories. In universe an adult Dragon is too big for Force Cage their bodies are too long, same with a Frost, Cloud or Storm Giant they are 21" tall so don't fit in the cage.

[Valmark]

It's nothing to do with size categories. In universe an adult Dragon is too big for Force Cage their bodies are too long, same with a Frost, Cloud or Storm Giant they are 21" tall so don't fit in the cage.

Being 21 feet tall doesn't mean you're too big for a Forcecage though- especially for creatures who likely can't choose not to crouch to strike creatures at their feet, like giants. It may be the same for adult dragons, depending on their description.

[Captain Panda]

Beatable? Sure, but since you're relying on the previously run simulation in a different thread I will point out for anyone looking here the following things that said simulation relied on:

1) two simulacra


Well, that's fair if the party has casters who can do it.



2) multiple planar bound creatures


At level 20 that's also something one can expect.



3) everyone having Phantom Steeds


Now it's getting excessive.



5) a ruling that a readied wall spell (wall of stone, wall of force) can be used to block a breath as it happens


...what? That's crazy.



6) using spells to gain meta-knowledge of her block beforehand


Okay, the simulation is now starting to feel like a lot of player wishful thinking.



7) prebuffing to the highest possible degree

8) it was ran in the map from the adventure, yet the verticality of the location wasn't used at all, meaning that she was reduced to playing a 2D game as a creature with a high fly speed


So yeah, half of those items are pretty unreasonable things to expect. I agree with you.

I actually think, even if you assume a pretty strong level 20 party with planar bound minions, Tiamat is still a formidable fight. She's only a pushover if you assume she is played poorly and the PCs are given unrealistic leeway.

[Dork_Forge]

Well, that's fair if the party has casters who can do it.



At level 20 that's also something one can expect.



Now it's getting excessive.



...what? That's crazy.



Okay, the simulation is now starting to feel like a lot of player wishful thinking.



So yeah, half of those items are pretty unreasonable things to expect. I agree with you.

I actually think, even if you assume a pretty strong level 20 party with planar bound minions, Tiamat is still a formidable fight. She's only a pushover if you assume she is played poorly and the PCs are given unrealistic leeway.

To clarify, the simulation being discussed was 14th level characters, my beef with simulacrum is them both being at 100%.

I don't think she's unbeatable, I think it is a tough fight no matter how you slice it outside of a Forcecage, especially because it has a very, very low margin for error.

[Captain Panda]

To clarify, the simulation being discussed was 14th level characters, my beef with simulacrum is them both being at 100%.

I don't think she's unbeatable, I think it is a tough fight no matter how you slice it outside of a Forcecage, especially because it has a very, very low margin for error.

I also think forcecage is a pretty dubious strategy. All the DM has to say is "gargantuan means 20 ft. squares *and larger*, Tiamat's larger, spell fails.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If you interpret size categories as being actual physical size (a dubious and anti-text proposition[1] to be sure), then a 9-foot-tall goliath character is actually only 5' tall. As are all gnomes (because Small and Medium have the same size listing). And horses are 10' cubes.

Basically, that ruling makes nonsense out of the physical world. Giants are Huge, despite being > 15' tall. The largest snakes are only 15' long max, despite that being on the smaller side for an anaconda, who have reached 30' long. Etc.

[1] From the PHB:

A creature's space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn't 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide

That's as clear as possible that physical dimension (which is what forcecage relies on) and size category are effectively unlinked.

[Eldariel]

...what? That's crazy.

Readying an action when e.g. she begins inhaling to breathe or (more meta) after her turn ends [since she can only breathe outside her turn] shouldn't be terribly difficult.


Okay, the simulation is now starting to feel like a lot of player wishful thinking.

In the campaign path you have like a month of downtime before the encounter when you return from your trip. That's plenty of time to cast Contact Other Plane or Commune or Legend Lore or similar to study your target, especially when your target is what amounts to a deity making their way to the material plane.


I actually think, even if you assume a pretty strong level 20 party with planar bound minions, Tiamat is still a formidable fight. She's only a pushover if you assume she is played poorly and the PCs are given unrealistic leeway.

Try it yourself and be amazed.

[Dork_Forge]

I also think forcecage is a pretty dubious strategy. All the DM has to say is "gargantuan means 20 ft. squares *and larger*, Tiamat's larger, spell fails.

I don't think she'd fit in a Forcecage period and it takes a particular reading of the rules to allow it, not saying some tables wouldn't do it, but it certainly wouldn't fly at mine.


Readying an action when e.g. she begins inhaling to breathe or (more meta) after her turn ends [since she can only breathe outside her turn] shouldn't be terribly difficult.

There's no reason why she would begin to inhale on a PC's turn, the entire breathing action is contained within the Legendary Action. And if the inhale is meant to be why the PC readies... then what is the trigger that it can go off in time?


In the campaign path you have like a month of downtime before the encounter when you return from your trip. That's plenty of time to cast Contact Other Plane or Commune or Legend Lore or similar to study your target, especially when your target is what amounts to a deity making their way to the material plane.

In the campaign path you also have a lot of encounters, not just walking up to her prebuffed and with no resource attrition.

[Foxhound438]

Readying an action when e.g. she begins inhaling to breathe or (more meta) after her turn ends [since she can only breathe outside her turn] shouldn't be terribly difficult.




There's no reason why she would begin to inhale on a PC's turn, the entire breathing action is contained within the Legendary Action. And if the inhale is meant to be why the PC readies... then what is the trigger that it can go off in time?

It's kind of a big assumption too that a dragon needs to take a big gulp of air or something to use breath weapons. In the descriptions for the attacks in the monster manual, they just exhale, there's not a line that they need to inhale. The blurb under "Dragons" explicitly says that the breath weapons are fueled by magic, so it seems to me like it's closer to casting a spell with no components. Notably, a subtle spell can't be perceived to be cast and thus a wizard with counterspell at the ready would not be able to respond to that, and I think this issue made it into a sage advice once.

And it also opens a can of worms (or wyrms, rather), in that if a wizard can say "I ready my action to wall of force in front of the fire breath when the dragon inhales", why couldn't a dragon say "I hold my action to fire breath when the wizard starts casting wall of force, then inhale"? It's not like there's strong rules in place for what has higher priority in a case like that. I get that that question is moot in Tiamat's case, but if you try it there why wouldn't it be tried elsewhere?

[Eldariel]

It's kind of a big assumption too that a dragon needs to take a big gulp of air or something to use breath weapons. In the descriptions for the attacks in the monster manual, they just exhale, there's not a line that they need to inhale. The blurb under "Dragons" explicitly says that the breath weapons are fueled by magic, so it seems to me like it's closer to casting a spell with no components. Notably, a subtle spell can't be perceived to be cast and thus a wizard with counterspell at the ready would not be able to respond to that, and I think this issue made it into a sage advice once.

And it also opens a can of worms (or wyrms, rather), in that if a wizard can say "I ready my action to wall of force in front of the fire breath when the dragon inhales", why couldn't a dragon say "I hold my action to fire breath when the wizard starts casting wall of force, then inhale"? It's not like there's strong rules in place for what has higher priority in a case like that. I get that that question is moot in Tiamat's case, but if you try it there why wouldn't it be tried elsewhere?

Yes, DM can rule it multiple ways. Point is, it's reasonable to rule any which way depending on a lot of stuff there's no RAW for. Without that ruling it would be a bit different to do the fight but it wouldn't be all that different all told; just different ready conditions (like I said, simply readying the action for the end of her turn accomplishes the same).