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Crow
2007-11-17, 12:57 AM
Whoa now!

Page 301, DMG:

"A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation."

Characters can't take immediate actions if they are flat-footed.

So even without a suprise round, if somebody beats the wizard on initiative in a normal combat, that wizard can't light off Celerity until at least his turn has come up. Could this possibly make this spell a little less broken?

Foresight still helps to make it broken again though!

Reinboom
2007-11-17, 12:59 AM
No, this has been discussed many times already.

I point you to the other variable in the equation:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/foresight.htm

-Even before 9th level, however, getting 2 actions suddenly in a round is still very deadly.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 12:59 AM
Foresight being active means the wizard isn't flatfooted. Ergo, the wizard can cast it anytime, preempting the initiative order.

And yes, it's very possible to get Foresight up effectively all day if you want to.

Crow
2007-11-17, 01:04 AM
Yes, but having to hold up a 9th level spell all day (and likely sacrificing all of the rest of your 9th level spells all day) is one thing.

I was talking about some of the other "wizard goes first" issues. Mainly, lower-level wizards (starting at level 7) always going first no matter the initiative order.

Reinboom
2007-11-17, 01:16 AM
Ah, not so much a power there. They get high bonuses, sure.
Improved Initiative and/or nerveskitter (a level 1 spell that gives +5 to init) help.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 02:01 AM
Yes, but having to hold up a 9th level spell all day (and likely sacrificing all of the rest of your 9th level spells all day) is one thing.

You can use a metamagic rod to extend the spell up to three time a day, not that you'll need to. At level 17, the earliest you can get Foresight, you'll have it up for more than five and one-half hours with a single casting using said rod. Two castings should do you for a full day's work, or one for a light day.

Trust me, this has been gone over many times. There are reasons why the paranoid superwizards are slightly overrated on these forums, but this combination isn't one of those reasons. It's solid, and it's perfectly reasonable that a wizard would have it up each and every day as a matter of course, given access to these three spells.

Ponce
2007-11-17, 02:07 AM
Can you make immediate actions with impunity before initiative begins? If so, couldn't you just load up on Nerveskitter? 1st level spell, +5 untyped bonus to initiative, SpC.

Nowhere Girl
2007-11-17, 02:13 AM
Can you make immediate actions with impunity before initiative begins? If so, couldn't you just load up on Nerveskitter? 1st level spell, +5 untyped bonus to initiative, SpC.

You can take one right after initiative begins, even on someone else's turn (because that's how immediate actions work) -- even on (actually before) the turn of the person to win first place on the initiative roll -- if you're not flatfooted. Which Foresight just happens to prevent you from being.

Setra
2007-11-17, 02:17 AM
I don't think Celerity is broken.

Only Time Stop.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-17, 02:23 AM
Whoa now!

Page 301, DMG:

"A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation."

Characters can't take immediate actions if they are flat-footed.

This is nothing new to me.

I still find most of the extra action abilities to be both unbalanced and bad for the game design in general (once you can use a swift action to get a standard, for example, you're going to throw out the usual swift actions). I remove Belt of Battle (it actually does everything and MORE than a similar, more expensive item in the book), Celerity, and White Raven Tactics from my games.


Ah, not so much a power there. They get high bonuses, sure.
Improved Initiative and/or nerveskitter (a level 1 spell that gives +5 to init) help.

Nerveskitter tends to be fairly lame because it makes you lose your first turn swift action.

Draz74
2007-11-17, 02:29 AM
This is nothing new to me.

I still find most of the extra action abilities to be both unbalanced and bad for the game design in general (once you can use a swift action to get a standard, for example, you're going to throw out the usual swift actions). I remove Belt of Battle (it actually does everything and MORE than a similar, more expensive item in the book), Celerity, and White Raven Tactics from my games.

I don't know if I've ever agreed with one of your posts more than I agree with this one ...

Ponce
2007-11-17, 02:29 AM
You can take one right after initiative begins, even on someone else's turn (because that's how immediate actions work) -- even on (actually before) the turn of the person to win first place on the initiative roll -- if you're not flatfooted. Which Foresight just happens to prevent you from being.

Assume for a moment it is a regular encounter, the wizard is flatfooted. He can't cast it before initiative. He can't cast it during initiative, since that's not a turn. He has to cast it after, but by then it is someone else's turn and initiative has already been determined. You can't retroactively add a bonus to a roll. Wouldn't this mean either 1) Nerveskitter is pretty much useless, or 2) immediate actions work very strangely outside of combat?

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 05:25 AM
This is nothing new to me.

I still find most of the extra action abilities to be both unbalanced and bad for the game design in general (once you can use a swift action to get a standard, for example, you're going to throw out the usual swift actions). I remove Belt of Battle (it actually does everything and MORE than a similar, more expensive item in the book), Celerity, and White Raven Tactics from my games.



Yes.

To the person who said time stop is broken, but celerity isn't, do you realize that they are essentially the same beast? They both give extra actions, but one is a NINTH level spell and one is a fourth level spell. One can interrupt anyone else's actions and be used to hurt people, and one can be used on your own turn for self buffing. The contradiction here hurts my head.

Setra
2007-11-17, 05:31 AM
Yes.

To the person who said time stop is broken, but celerity isn't, do you realize that they are essentially the same beast? They both give extra actions, but one is a NINTH level spell and one is a fourth level spell. One can interrupt anyone else's actions and be used to hurt people, and one can be used on your own turn for self buffing. The contradiction here hurts my head.
But technically it isn't an 'extra' action so much as an action in advance.

Without timestop Celerity is suddenly a lot less useful.

Just bump it up a level or three.

Or maybe it just seems that way to me.

Stephen_E
2007-11-17, 06:14 AM
Time Stop isn't such a big problem these days without Celerity and Fortell. Now that you can stop Wizards defensive casting, and set a contingency Anti-Magic Sphere to activate in responce to contingency spells, you have a decent chance of stopping the Wizard getting Timestop off, unless they're using Fortell/Celerity (even that can be neutralised, but it's bloody hard, and the most you can do is lock the Wizard down with a Mage Killer character and hope the rest of your forces can defeat the wizard's minions).

Stephen

Chronos
2007-11-17, 01:03 PM
Wouldn't this mean either 1) Nerveskitter is pretty much useless, or 2) immediate actions work very strangely outside of combat?Or 3), Nerveskitter is an exception to the general rule, as specifically stated in the spell description. You can cast Nerveskitter during initiative resolution, even though you wouldn't normally be able to take immediate actions at that time.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-17, 01:09 PM
But technically it isn't an 'extra' action so much as an action in advance.

Without timestop Celerity is suddenly a lot less useful.

Not really, no. It just means you need to remove any threats with one spell, instead of four. Good wizards do that anyway.

Setra
2007-11-17, 01:12 PM
Not really, no. It just means you need to remove any threats with one spell, instead of four. Good wizards do that anyway.
Well then if they're gonna have a turn before Celerity can be cast anyways the battle is already over isn't it?

Unless you have Foresight on, of course. In which case you might go first anyways as you are never surprised, or just roll high on initiative, no need for Celerity then either.

In any case, Celerity in and of itself isn't broken, when used with Foresight it is, but not in and of itself.

Just like Foresight is not in and of itself broken, only when used with Celerity.

Edit: Just a fun thought..

Celerity is 'stealing time from the future' right?

Foresight allows you to see into the future right?

I sense a Time Paradox.

Crow
2007-11-17, 01:25 PM
Isn't nerveskitter a Personal range spell? Maybe you could persist it?

Reinboom
2007-11-17, 01:52 PM
Isn't nerveskitter a Personal range spell? Maybe you could persist it?

Close range spell.

Crow
2007-11-17, 01:54 PM
Close range spell.

Oh well. Thanks.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-17, 02:05 PM
Wasn't there some metamagic feat that allowed you to change the range of a spell? I'm sure there is one.

Curmudgeon
2007-11-17, 02:10 PM
Wouldn't this mean either 1) Nerveskitter is pretty much useless Check the Spell Compendium errata. Nerveskitter is specifically cited as an exception, so you can cast it when flat-footed.

Too bad they didn't bother to add a similar exception for Feather Fall after redefining it as an immediate action spell, too.

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 03:06 PM
But technically it isn't an 'extra' action so much as an action in advance.

Without timestop Celerity is suddenly a lot less useful.

Just bump it up a level or three.

Or maybe it just seems that way to me.

Every time the wizard takes an action in combat, something terrible happens to his enemies. Being able to borrow an action means something terrible could happen twice before they get to react. The wizard going twice in a row and doing two terrible things is likely to end the combat on the spot, unless it's an incredibly difficult encounter.

Sergeantbrother
2007-11-17, 03:49 PM
Am I the only person who thought Vampire when I first saw this?

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-17, 04:39 PM
Nerveskitter always struck me as being more of a "buff spell" rather than a "reaction spell", personally. I mean, the name alone suggests that it makes you hyper-sensitive to hostilities, ready to draw guano at a moment's notice, not "I see him about to spring forth with an attack. I'm so nervous! I go first!":smallyuk:

Shisumo
2007-11-17, 04:47 PM
Am I the only person who thought Vampire when I first saw this?

Probably, because anyone who thought Celerity was anything other than broken was almost certainly insane.