Really disappointed with the nerf to dragon monk

[Dualswinger]

So you tubers are starting to get their advance copies and we’ve seen that, despite how underpowered monks are, they’ve doubled the cost of their signature ability dragons breath to 2 ki.

It already was a fairly weak aoe, and I was ok with the lack of “dragon warlock” because this would be then (close-to) at will cheaper dragons breath.

But at the level they get their breath, they are outclassed by a wizard with a single 2nd level spell, and the wizard can still use their action each round.

[Lord Vukodlak]

So you tubers are starting to get their advance copies and we’ve seen that, despite how underpowered monks are, they’ve doubled the cost of their signature ability dragons breath to 2 ki.

It already was a fairly weak aoe, and I was ok with the lack of “dragon warlock” because this would be then (close-to) at will cheaper dragons breath.

But at the level they get their breath, they are outclassed by a wizard with a single 2nd level spell, and the wizard can still use their action each round.

Can you still use it a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus for free? And does the breath still replace one of their existing attacks

[Arkhios]

Youtubers are getting advance copies of what, exactly? :smallconfused:

[Lord Vukodlak]

Youtubers are getting advance copies of what, exactly? :smallconfused:

Fizban's Treasury of Dragons

[Dualswinger]

Can you still use it a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus for free? And does the breath still replace one of their existing attacks

Yes. The only change to breath is the extra use ki cost.

They’ve also lost the ability to use their wings with ki. Now it’s just pb uses, that’s it.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Yes. The only change to breath is the extra use ki cost.

They’ve also lost the ability to use their wings with ki. Now it’s just pb uses, that’s it.

So it still replaces one of their attacks in their attack action, and sill has a number of uses equal to their prof bonus for free. I mean openhand monks will spend a ki point to gain one extra attack.

So a 5th level monk with their martial arts can attack two times(three with a bonus action martial arts.).

If they're a dragonmonk they can replace one of those attacks with a 2d6 elemental blast of their choice that can hit two or three people, three times before having to spend Ki. Ki which recharges on a short rest.

[Dualswinger]

I’m sad because the 1 ki turned dragon monk from “can basically use dragons breath at will when needed” to “has to save uses for the important moments” like every other class.

[Kane0]

Still sounds alright so far

[Joe the Rat]

Given that we are looking at "Monk with a dragon theme" rather than "firebreather who can also kick things," and this actually pulls things more in line with other traditions, this is appropriate tuning.

Think Dragon Shaman, not Dragonfire Adept.

[Xervous]

Given that we are looking at "Monk with a dragon theme" rather than "firebreather who can also kick things," and this actually pulls things more in line with other traditions, this is appropriate tuning.

Think Dragon Shaman, not Dragonfire Adept.

Judging by some popular opinions here ‘more in line with other traditions’ is itself disappointing.

[stoutstien]

Judging by some popular opinions here ‘more in line with other traditions’ is itself disappointing.

Still going to beat mook clearer monk and if you can leverage the elemental unarmed strikes to target vulnerabilities every once in a while it not a bad damage dealer.

Just having an option to target dex rather than AC or Con is a solid upgrade in options. Combine it with one of the new dragonborn options in the same book and you could reasonably be the master of breath attacks.

[strangebloke]

It was overtuned before and I was fine with that. Personally I'd get rid of the free dragon breath uses and lower the cost to one, but I know nobody will agree with me. As things stand its still a good subclass, probably the best overall.

Assuming that OP's information is accurate.

[Taevyr]

Anywhere we can see the full final version? Can't seem to find the youtube video(s) you mean, and I've been curious about it

[Foolwise]

Anywhere we can see the full final version? Can't seem to find the youtube video(s) you mean, and I've been curious about it

There's only one video up right now. At 3:56 of the video, the guy stops on the first page of the monk subclass. You can read up to the 6th level feature.

[Dualswinger]

Anywhere we can see the full final version? Can't seem to find the youtube video(s) you mean, and I've been curious about it

Check Reddit r/dndleaks

[Dualswinger]

I’m a big enough girl to admit when I have an unpopular opinion. Seems most feel okay with the nerf as it is. I’ll have to play one and see how it feels.

On a semi related note, if you are flying directly overhead of enemies does a 15ft cone turn into a 15ft diameter attack?

[RustyArcana]

The playtest was very strong. I did not think it was going to pass through the review process without being nerfed. :smallfrown:

[Amechra]

Honestly, I'm kinda annoyed that they went with making the breath more expensive but kept the free uses. That's just fiddly.

[Foolwise]

Reddit apparently no longer allows me to view pages in browser... I am forced to DL the app or get moved to r/popular

So basically Reddit doesn't want my views/clicks

[Hytheter]

Reddit apparently no longer allows me to view pages in browser... I am forced to DL the app or get moved to r/popular

So basically Reddit doesn't want my views/clicks

Reddit is annoyingly pushy about its app on mobile. Compact mode still works fine for me, though; it may not be to your liking but try adding /.compact to the the end of the web address.

[Ralanr]

I can’t find it on Reddit, but UA’s are usually released as too strong so it’s generally expected to be nerfed upon release.

There are exceptions to this rule though. Like Twilight Cleric.

[Unoriginal]

On a semi related note, if you are flying directly overhead of enemies does a 15ft cone turn into a 15ft diameter attack?

Absolutely, though only if the enemies are in contact with the area 15ft away from you.

Ex: if you are flying 10ft above enemies on the ground, the cone's AoE would be 10ft, but if you're flying 20ft above a group of Large foes they would still get caught in the 15ft AoE.

[PhantomSoul]

I can’t find it on Reddit, but UA’s are usually released as too strong so it’s generally expected to be nerfed upon release.

There are exceptions to this rule though. Like Twilight Cleric.

Yeah, the Twilight Cleric is still waiting for its explanation... xD

[strangebloke]

Honestly, I'm kinda annoyed that they went with making the breath more expensive but kept the free uses. That's just fiddly.

Agreed. I know people like the "first one is free" mechanic but I'm personally not a fan because adding an entirely new resource pool is just about always :smallsigh:

...honestly with no posted links or evidence of any kind, I'm skeptical this change even happened.

[Dualswinger]

Agreed. I know people like the "first one is free" mechanic but I'm personally not a fan because adding an entirely new resource pool is just about always :smallsigh:

...honestly with no posted links or evidence of any kind, I'm skeptical this change even happened.

Apologies, I made this thread during my commute. Here's the youtube vid.

https://youtu.be/2wWKlowwm18?t=214

[Ralanr]

Apologies, I made this thread during my commute. Here's the youtube vid.

https://youtu.be/2wWKlowwm18?t=214

Huh...they nerfed Chromatic by the looks of it.

[Dark.Revenant]

They nerfed all of them, technically, since the 3rd level feature now activates at 5th level instead. Gem and Chromatic got a slightly bigger nerf, though, because of the restriction to 1 minute instead of 10. Not that it would really matter in most situations.

Gem Dragonborn still have their 30-foot unlimited, no-action, language-barrier-breaking one-way telepathy, so they're probably still the strongest of the three.

[Ralanr]

They nerfed all of them, technically, since the 3rd level feature now activates at 5th level instead. Gem and Chromatic got a slightly bigger nerf, though, because of the restriction to 1 minute instead of 10. Not that it would really matter in most situations.

Gem Dragonborn still have their 30-foot unlimited, no-action, language-barrier-breaking one-way telepathy, so they're probably still the strongest of the three.

Metallic's second breath weapon still gives it on level 3 according to the preview.

Chromatic really got hit hard. Reduced from 10 minutes to 1, given at level 5, and still costs an action? Yikes. I'd have to homebrew it as a bonus action. Sure damage immunity is powerful, but if I was DMing this kind of dragonborn, I'd make it so whatever they're fighting had other ways to hit them while still letting them have their moment.

[Segev]

By level 5, that's three rounds in which you can use the breath weapon without touching your ki. You still get 1 or 2 attacks (3 if you spend ki) on top of it, too.

I get the concern - 2 ki is a lot, especially when competing with Stunning Strike and Flurry of Blows - but most fights last only 3-4 rounds. If you're not getting at least 2 fights in between short rests, that's actually almost "free" to use it.

[Amechra]

I was honestly just hoping that they'd cut the "you can do this X times per long rest before you have to start spending ki on it" thing and leave everything else alone. Giving Monks long-rest resources just kinda feels wrong.

[Segev]

I was honestly just hoping that they'd cut the "you can do this X times per long rest before you have to start spending ki on it" thing and leave everything else alone. Giving Monks long-rest resources just kinda feels wrong.

Oh, that's a long-rest resource? Then the change to 2 ki is a bit of a problem, yeah. If the X times for free thing was a short-rest resource, 2 ki would be fine, though.

[strangebloke]

Oh, that's a long-rest resource? Then the change to 2 ki is a bit of a problem, yeah. If the X times for free thing was a short-rest resource, 2 ki would be fine, though.

This is looking like a day one houserule.

It's 1 ki and you get no free uses. Balance? Who cares about that? I just think keeping track of 'free' uses is lame.

[Foolwise]

This is looking like a day one houserule.

It's 1 ki and you get no free uses. Balance? Who cares about that? I just think keeping track of 'free' uses is lame.

Should probably include monks get to add their Wisdom mod to their ki pool with that houserule.

[strangebloke]

Should probably include monks get to add their Wisdom mod to their ki pool with that houserule.

way ahead of you boss :smallamused:

[ATHATH]

That's incredibly disappointing, yeah.

[Foolwise]

Wow. The worst nerfs were on the next page. 11th and 17th features were trashed.

So the Dragon Monks changes from UA:

3rd- Draconic Disciple
Only change was allowing to pick another language if they already know Draconic. (Buff, I guess)

3rd- Breath of the Dragon
Now costs 2 ki instead of 1 ki to use after PB free uses. (Nerf)

6th- Unfurled Wings
Limited to free uses only. Can no longer spend 1 ki to use again after PB free uses. (Nerf)

And here's where it gets bad.
11th- Aspect of the Wyrm
Aura range reduced from 30ft to 10ft, but unlike paladins, it never increases back to 30ft later. (Huge Nerf)
Aura no longer allows PC and allies within aura to deal retributive damage with their reaction. This was the coolest ability of the subclass imo, an AoE Absorb Elements for the party... (trashed)
PC has to choose between giving the party (again, within 10ft) resistance to one dragon type damage OR cause ONE enemy to frightened within the 10ft... (bleh)
I forget if the free use remained, but the ki cost for this weakened ability was lowered from 4 ki to 3... (thanks, I guess)

17th- Ascendant Aspect
Blindsight range reduced from 30ft to 10ft... since the 11th level, spellcasters could get 120ft truesight... but 30ft blindsight at 17 is waaay too much for a monk (WTF)
Breath weapon reqs a 1 ki cost to pump dmg up to 4 rolls of MA dice and expands the range to 60ft cone or a 90ft line. UA had no cost, dmg was at least 4 rolls as damaged creatures would need to repeat the save to end a persistent 1 roll damage each turn, but did not expand the range. (Mixed bag. Having to pay 1 ki to get damage to scale properly sucks. Losing the damage rider is offset by the expanded range that can potentially hit more targets)
The damaging fury released from Aspect of the Wyrm was nerfed from 4d10 to 3d10, and again, this is now only a 10ft aura, not 30ft. And the icing on the cake? Instead of auto hit damage from the UA, it is now Dex save or suck (Again WTF)

I was so excited to play this subclass... not so much now. An AoE version of a 1st level spell was too powerful at 11th? Seriously? Twilight Cleric gets 3 mins of flight at 6th, and this Monk at 6th could burn all their ki and free uses for.... 9 rounds of flight. Whoa. WotC, you better scale that back. If you don't a 20th level Monk could fly for 26 rounds... that almost matches the 6th level Twilight Cleric's 30 rounds!
And that 10ft aura... woof. Had they raised it to 30ft at 17 to match the Paladin's at 18, fine. But the 10ft blindsight at 17!!! When fighters can get 10ft blindsight at 1 with a fighting style? Give me a break.

Why can't monks have nice things? Why?

[Kane0]

Oof, I retract my previous 'alright so far'.

[Amechra]

Yeah, what the heck? Who made those decisions?

[Ralanr]

Jeez.

I know you can argue that the 120 truesight costs a spell slot, but those nerfs are just painful. Were they worried the monk would just be using their abilities too often or something?

[Amechra]

What baffles me is that they looked at the Monk, the quintessential short rest class, and decided that the best way to design a Dragon-themed Monk was to... give it a bunch of features that have their own discrete pools of uses that recharge on a long rest?

Because if they just removed the ability to spend ki on the 6th level feature and didn't change when those uses recharge, your 6th level dragon monk can fly for three rounds per short rest.

What feedback are they responding to here?

[Dork_Forge]

Just on the Blinsight, I can see why they'd do that:

10ft Blindsight is worth a Fighting Style

A Fighting Style is worth a feat

So putting more than a feat's worth of power as a single part of a feature might seem inconsistent with their previous weighting/valuing

I don't agree, but I think that might have something to do with it.

[Ralanr]

Just on the Blinsight, I can see why they'd do that:

10ft Blindsight is worth a Fighting Style

A Fighting Style is worth a feat

So putting more than a feat's worth of power as a single part of a feature might seem inconsistent with their previous weighting/valuing

I don't agree, but I think that might have something to do with it.

Are class features not meant to be stronger than feats?

[Unoriginal]

Are class features not meant to be stronger than feats?

Not all of them, no.

Some class and subclass features are meant to be weaker, some are meant to be stronger, and some are meant to be equal.

Also it depends on when you get said feature. If you have to wait for lvl 17 to do something, but you could do nearly the same but a weaker at lvl 4 for one ASI spent, many will judge that getting it earlier is worth the power difference.

[Dork_Forge]

Are class features not meant to be stronger than feats?

It varies, but the class feature is not only gaining Blindsight, so the question doesn't apply directly.

[stoutstien]

Are class features not meant to be stronger than feats?

**Looks at sharpshooter and then the grappler feat**

I'm not confident if a feat was designed to be as strong as a feat let alone 1/4 of a class feature.

I know players will have a lot of kneejerk reactions to the printed version of this option. the UA was over tuned and they rarely get the readjusting spot on without multiple rounds of play testing. I think by the numbers it will function just fine. I've been toying with it in different mock party set ups and honestly it pretty ki friendly and deals damage close to the mercy which IMO is one of the best damage dealing monks at the moment. the higher level changes seem huge but of all the classes the monk has the least need for flight and the range difference for the aura isnt that big of a deal thanks to the massive mobility the class has. If you are already in fireball formation what difference does it make and of you are spread out enough to avoid everyone from getting nuked then you only need to worry about addressing those in the path of the elemental damage.

[Dork_Forge]

I've not read through the final version yet, pausing videos to read books seems to be a tradition at this point apparently, but here's a question for folk:

What do you think of the subclass on its own, instead of comparing it to the UA?

[Segev]

I've not read through the final version yet, pausing videos to read books seems to be a tradition at this point apparently, but here's a question for folk:

What do you think of the subclass on its own, instead of comparing it to the UA?

I like that the breath weapon is in place of an attack, not a full on action.

Otherwise, it doesn't feel very monk-like to me. It feels like dragon mechanics stapled onto a monk, and poorly so, with lots of hedges and decisions driven by fear that it might actually be useful. This was a common problem in 1e through 3e and PF (I won't comment on 4e), but one that 5e did a lot of good work in avoiding. It's sad to see it returning in more recent work.

[Nadan]

I guess the nerfs maybe results from all the "four elements monk but better" and "fix for 4 elements monk as hexblade for blade pact" replys.
Well, it is not a fix anymore...by nerf it to just slightly better than 4 elements.

[Ralanr]

I guess the nerfs maybe results from all the "four elements monk but better" and "fix for 4 elements monk as hexblade for blade pact" replys.
Well, it is not a fix anymore...by nerf it to just slightly better than 4 elements.

Why would that stop them? That's literally been their design philosophy with a lot of new subclasses.

Undead warlock for example!

[Segev]

Why would that stop them? That's literally been their design philosophy with a lot of new subclasses.

Undead warlock for example!

Well, yes, they tend to start strong and prune back with UA to official books, but they also tend to try to fix older mistakes by just releasing more/stronger options to replace or go alongside them.

[Nadan]

Well, yes, they tend to start strong and prune back with UA to official books, but they also tend to try to fix older mistakes by just releasing more/stronger options to replace or go alongside them.
If it isn't a monk subclass then I think the prune is reasonable.
But it is, the weakest class in the game, even in the UA version I think it just ok if not slightly weak at latter level (average damage of 4d10 is 22, when a CR5 monster can have over 100hp)
I still don't get why WotC hate monk, maybe is the stun ? Is that feature too cheap so they think monk is strong enough?

[ProsecutorGodot]

If it isn't a monk subclass then I think the prune is reasonable.
But it is, the weakest class in the game, even in the UA version I think it just ok if not slightly weak at latter level (average damage of 4d10 is 22, when a CR5 monster can have over 100hp)
I still don't get why WotC hate monk, maybe is the stun ? Is that feature too cheap so they think monk is strong enough?
This is a statement that people continue to make but never actually back up.

I will say I think this was tuned a bit too far back but I don't think it's necessarily a weak option.

[Tvtyrant]

This is a statement that people continue to make but never actually back up.

I will say I think this was tuned a bit too far back but I don't think it's necessarily a weak option.

They do, I'm not part of this argument but there are dozens of threads on the subject. The weak monk side is it does piddly damage with bad defenses and the other side is it gets stuns and movement so it is ok. Whether that makes them weak or not is up to how much people value their stun.

It wasn't an overpowered option at its height, is the thing. The piddly AoE was fine but not spectacular, even against hordes the Wizard/Sorcerer could throw fireballs repeatedly to do more. That people are arguing that halving the uses doesn't effect the class power is not a sign of how /strong/ it is.

[Nadan]

piddly damage with bad defenses and the other side is it gets stuns and movement
Yeah I think the fundamental job for a martial class is kill enemies really fast, but monk can't, and for some reason monk is a melee guy only have d8 hit dice.
The value of higher speed is another topic worth debate, like, how fast do you need if you can just snipe target to death 600 feet away without disadvantage ( longbow as kensei weapon and sharpshooter feat)
So the only thing remain that worth taking about is stun

[Amechra]

Without the UA, I'd still say that the current design is unnecessarily fiddly. The Monk should not be getting "X times per long rest" features — the only subclasses that have gotten them in the past have been Open Hand (Wholeness of Body, kinda Tranquility) and Mercy (Hand of Ultimate Mercy), and those were once-per-long-rest dealies, not "here, track a separate pool of uses for each ability".

In terms of raw numbers, I'd say it's probably fine, if a little conservative — since the breath weapon is tied to the Attack action, I feel like we're going to see a bunch of "Dragon Archers" using Dedicated shortbows.

...

Also, mobility is super good if you're a ranged character. It helps you get out of melee if you happen to find yourself there, and prevents melee characters from closing with you.

[strangebloke]

This is a statement that people continue to make but never actually back up.

I will say I think this was tuned a bit too far back but I don't think it's necessarily a weak option.
People back it up, their math is just bad.

Yeah I think the fundamental job for a martial class is kill enemies really fast, but monk can't, and for some reason monk is a melee guy only have d8 hit dice.
The value of higher speed is another topic worth debate, like, how fast do you need if you can just snipe target to death 600 feet away without disadvantage ( longbow as kensei weapon and sharpshooter feat)
So the only thing remain that worth taking about is stun
speed is always really good for every character, and if you don't think this, try playing a high level melee fighter without any mobility enhancers and see how often you spend your turn running toward the enemy. Take this on a ranged character and kite enemies to death within a dungeon environment.

Also no lmao, monk damage is fine. It's less good than specifically SS and GWM builds when the monk in question isn't using those feats, but its better than everything else at every level barring like hexblades and paladins.



Also, mobility is super good if you're a ranged character. It helps you get out of melee if you happen to find yourself there, and prevents melee characters from closing with you.
Correct. Mobility for melee characters is primarily offensive, for ranged characters its defensive.

[stoutstien]

Without the UA, I'd still say that the current design is unnecessarily fiddly. The Monk should not be getting "X times per long rest" features — the only subclasses that have gotten them in the past have been Open Hand (Wholeness of Body, kinda Tranquility) and Mercy (Hand of Ultimate Mercy), and those were once-per-long-rest dealies, not "here, track a separate pool of uses for each ability".

In terms of raw numbers, I'd say it's probably fine, if a little conservative — since the breath weapon is tied to the Attack action, I feel like we're going to see a bunch of "Dragon Archers" using Dedicated shortbows.

...

Also, mobility is super good if you're a ranged character. It helps you get out of melee if you happen to find yourself there, and prevents melee characters from closing with you.

I agree it's probably not the best way to implement this onto the monk chassis but I am glad to see some options that aren't just more competition for Ki even if just a few times a day.
I don't know why they didn't go with a traditional dragon breath reroll style mechanic. You can start with a relatively large die size and as a level up not only does the damage increase the recharge die shrinks. I think overall I'd give it more of the monk flow feel. it basically mean they get it once and encounter for free which roughly lines up with the same amount of charges they're getting now.

Could take it a step further and anytime they use another feature that expense Ki they can roll the recharge.

**Monks are special case when it comes to mobility. They use it for everything. This is one of the reasons why they don't really shine in white room comparisons. Not only do they have high mobility its reliable. It's hard to imagine the average table playing on a grid large enough for NPC to think they're safe from a monk.**

[Amechra]

Honestly? They don't need to stop giving the Monk abilities that cost ki. They just need to give the Monk more ki, especially at early levels.

[Nadan]

Honestly? They don't need to stop giving the Monk abilities that cost ki. They just need to give the Monk more ki, especially at early levels.
They...kinda do that in fact...by magic item in the same book, called "dragonhide belt" or something like that, use a action you roll your martial art dice, then you regain ki point by the amount you roll.
Oh and that thing also increase your ki feature's DC, just like TCoE's focus for casters.

[Kane0]

I don't know why they didn't go with a traditional dragon breath reroll style mechanic. You can start with a relatively large die size and as a level up not only does the damage increase the recharge die shrinks. I think overall I'd give it more of the monk flow feel. it basically mean they get it once and encounter for free which roughly lines up with the same amount of charges they're getting now.

Could take it a step further and anytime they use another feature that expense Ki they can roll the recharge.


I think youre onto something there with the reroll and additional rerolls when you spend Ki

[Amechra]

They...kinda do that in fact...by magic item in the same book, called "dragonhide belt" or something like that, use a action you roll your martial art dice, then you regain ki point by the amount you roll.
Oh and that thing also increase your ki feature's DC, just like TCoE's focus for casters.

Cool, yes, inject that in my veins please.


I think youre onto something there with the reroll and additional rerolls when you spend Ki

Rewrite the Monk to use the Psi Die from the psychic UA and call it the Ki Die.

:smallbiggrin:

[x3n0n]

Honestly? They don't need to stop giving the Monk abilities that cost ki. They just need to give the Monk more ki, especially at early levels.

How much ki is enough ki?

The existing rule (ki per short rest equals Monk level) is very aesthetically pleasing, and it's (as you allude to) actually a reasonable amount once you get into tier 2 and certainly by tier 3.

I think the "per long rest" features are intended to function vaguely like "once per day, recover PB ki (but you can only use them on subclass abilities)", giving the Monk a little bit of extra juice, especially in five-minute-workday situations. The printed version means they don't need to errata the base class, which isn't really an option in a normal splat (as opposed to Tasha's, where something like that could have been on the table), and it avoids the dreaded "my Monk's subclass doesn't do anything because I only get one use per short rest at low levels" problem that you get with Elemonk.

I think a house rule of "once per day, you can meditate and (re-)gain PB (or Wis-mod) ki, up to your current max" would be fun--and it's functionally pretty close to what they printed for this subclass.
"ki per short rest equals Monk level plus Wis mod (or PB)" seems like it might be too much of a bump...but maybe not. It sounds like some others are already playing with that house rule.

[Kane0]

How much ki is enough ki?

The existing rule (ki per short rest equals Monk level) is very aesthetically pleasing, and it's (as you allude to) actually a reasonable amount once you get into tier 2 and certainly by tier 3.

I think the "per long rest" features are intended to function vaguely like "once per day, recover PB ki (but you can only use them on subclass abilities)", giving the Monk a little bit of extra juice, especially in five-minute-workday situations. The printed version means they don't need to errata the base class, which isn't really an option in a normal splat (as opposed to Tasha's, where something like that could have been on the table), and it avoids the dreaded "my Monk's subclass doesn't do anything because I only get one use per short rest at low levels" problem that you get with Elemonk.

I think a house rule of "once per day, you can meditate and (re-)gain PB (or Wis-mod) ki, up to your current max" would be fun--and it's functionally pretty close to what they printed for this subclass.
"ki per short rest equals Monk level plus Wis mod (or PB)" seems like it might be too much of a bump...but maybe not. It sounds like some others are already playing with that house rule.

This way also encourages monks to use all their abilities rather than flurrying and stunning with all their Ki then complaining that they can't ever use their subclass features because they all need Ki to use.

[Amechra]

How much ki is enough ki?

You ask this as if this is a question with an answer.

While "KI=level" is quite elegant, I feel like Monks really start feeling solid once you have 6-7 ki under your belt.

[Saelethil]

You ask this as if this is a question with an answer.

While "KI=level" is quite elegant, I feel like Monks really start feeling solid once you have 6-7 ki under your belt.

I think KI =level + wis mod is also pretty elegant.

[Kane0]

I prefer reducing the load of Ki costs at levels 2-5, but we've had that thread already.

[Yakmala]

Wow. The worst nerfs were on the next page. 11th and 17th features were trashed.

[Snip]

Why can't monks have nice things? Why?

Wow, that's bad. Like, really bad! Was looking forward to playing this subclass but not anymore. Still probably better than Four Elements, but not by much.

[animewatcha]

Going through youtube clips slowly, but monk's dragon breath problem is slowly fixed if you choose dragonborn race for dragon monk.

First Look Livestream https://youtu.be/YxLgXvJKSPA

Chromatic Dragonborn https://youtu.be/wETqjfycM0c

Gem Dragonborn https://youtu.be/pL_nXY6DdLE

Metallic Dragonborn https://youtu.be/_zxZoaQZIuI

Draconic Feats https://youtu.be/2zXXR22sf2k

Draconic Gifts https://youtu.be/5lSbTyLFDQs

New Magical Items https://youtu.be/fFE6tDW5svI

Most Racial dragon breaths scale like cantrips and are PB use per long rest. Also quite a few different damage types.

[Hael]

I was looking at the breath of the dragon monk ability, and maybe i'm missing something, but it really seems pretty mediocre damage wise relative to the hype.

At lvl 4 most relevant monsters have dex bonus saves on the order of ~1.5 on avg.. I will assume a wisdom of 16 for the monk and a dex of 18.
In that case if we clip 3 monsters of appropriate CR, thats an effect of about 11 dpr. But it comes at a cost.. We would have made a weapon attack instead, which would have done about 7 dpr. So the net effect is about 4 dpr. At 2 prof per day, thats about 8 total damage per day added in tier1 over a normal subclass less monk. Its also not entirely clear to me if you can take the martial arts action with the feature (thus forcing you to burn ki on flurry of blows to weaponize the ba). Yikes!

In tier 2 at lvl9, it's better. 3 targets yields about a 16 dpr (avg dex saves scales slower than proficiency at that lvl) with a d6 martial art die. Meanwhile we only get about an 8 dpr boost from our scaled up weapon attack. Thus on average we expect this to add about 32 points of damage over the course of the day with proficiency 4. Further martial arts will get triggered b/c of the extra attack.

Now, i'm assuming we only clip 3 targets here, so this is obviously much better against hordes, on the other hand i'm not factoring in negative damage or the effects of cover etc.. But by comparison, something like the mercy monk or the Kensai have kits that add more damage over the course of an average day..

A general observation is that the 2ki cost seems prohibitively expensive vs simply using ki fueled strike or flurry of blows so I expect that to really only be used in a perfect situation (like a helms deep type scenario).

[animewatcha]

But nerfing an entire subclass is supposed to totally justify the new number one item for monks that requires attunement anyway.

[ProsecutorGodot]

But nerfing an entire subclass is supposed to totally justify the new number one item for monks that requires attunement anyway.

Few items that require attunement were really a top pick for a Monk anyway.

Our 18th level Monk is still attuned to a cloak of protection as we haven't found anything better for their third slot. Assuming our DM allows the item it's an easy choice to go and hunt one down.

I also doubt it's the reason the class was nerfed so heavily, though I'm also struggling to see why it received such heavy adjustments, I didn't think it needed this much.

[Ralanr]

Going through youtube clips slowly, but monk's dragon breath problem is slowly fixed if you choose dragonborn race for dragon monk.

First Look Livestream https://youtu.be/YxLgXvJKSPA

Chromatic Dragonborn https://youtu.be/wETqjfycM0c

Gem Dragonborn https://youtu.be/pL_nXY6DdLE

Metallic Dragonborn https://youtu.be/_zxZoaQZIuI

Draconic Feats https://youtu.be/2zXXR22sf2k

Draconic Gifts https://youtu.be/5lSbTyLFDQs

New Magical Items https://youtu.be/fFE6tDW5svI

Most Racial dragon breaths scale like cantrips and are PB use per long rest. Also quite a few different damage types.

As much as I like Dragonborn, they shouldn't be required to fill the gaps of a subclass.

[stoutstien]

I was looking at the breath of the dragon monk ability, and maybe i'm missing something, but it really seems pretty mediocre damage wise relative to the hype.

At lvl 4 most relevant monsters have dex bonus saves on the order of ~1.5 on avg.. I will assume a wisdom of 16 for the monk and a dex of 18.
In that case if we clip 3 monsters of appropriate CR, thats an effect of about 11 dpr. But it comes at a cost.. We would have made a weapon attack instead, which would have done about 7 dpr. So the net effect is about 4 dpr. At 2 prof per day, thats about 8 total damage per day added in tier1 over a normal subclass less monk. Its also not entirely clear to me if you can take the martial arts action with the feature (thus forcing you to burn ki on flurry of blows to weaponize the ba). Yikes!

In tier 2 at lvl9, it's better. 3 targets yields about a 16 dpr (avg dex saves scales slower than proficiency at that lvl) with a d6 martial art die. Meanwhile we only get about an 8 dpr boost from our scaled up weapon attack. Thus on average we expect this to add about 32 points of damage over the course of the day with proficiency 4. Further martial arts will get triggered b/c of the extra attack.

Now, i'm assuming we only clip 3 targets here, so this is obviously much better against hordes, on the other hand i'm not factoring in negative damage or the effects of cover etc.. But by comparison, something like the mercy monk or the Kensai have kits that add more damage over the course of an average day..

A general observation is that the 2ki cost seems prohibitively expensive vs simply using ki fueled strike or flurry of blows so I expect that to really only be used in a perfect situation (like a helms deep type scenario).

I ran into this issue when I was trying to value the artillerist's flamethrower.
Unlike AC, which tend to fall in a narrow range, saves tend to have a high displacement. You have anything from -3 to +5 to dex saves with lower CRs and that gap widens as you see tougher mooks an minions. The save for half doesn't show up with averages either compared to all or nothing with attacks.

So hobgoblins, the quintessential shoulder to shoulder CR 1/2 NPC would be a prime situation for the breath. Not only do they have low dex saves but they have lowish HP but high AC. Where if you sub in orcs then it's probably a wash with just spamming attacks. Finally a herd of satyrs would be a noticable decrease if you tried to use the AoE compared to just attacks.

[jaappleton]

I myself am incredibly disappointed with the nerfs.

I firmly believed that during the UA, this was the fix for Four Elements and the underwhelming Sun Soul.

This was the blaster Monk. This was the pick for living out your dreams of the anime character firing off energy blasts, or the Dragonborn or Kobold utilizing all their ancestors power.

They ripped its heart out.

This was a blaster. Through and through. It was a blaster without being a spellcaster, which really don't exist in 5E. You were able to play something as a blaster without being a mage, it was a truly unique playstyle to where you could effectively engage in melee combat or effectively blast.

And its been beaten so badly with the nerf bat that I don't recognize it. Ki costs are way up, and now its a melee combatant that can occasionally throw out piddly AoE at a very high resource cost.

There's still no good blaster Monk option. And that's my problem. Its a playstyle option which still doesn't exist, this many years into 5E. They had the opportunity and the design team blew it.

Lets face it, most Monk subclasses suck. They do. They're outright terrible. Sun Soul, Four Elements, Drunken Master, Kensei are all hot garbage. Open Hand is good (god tier at Tier 4 play), Shadow is good, and Long Death is serviceable. Astral Self is... decent at higher tiers of play, and Mercy is god-tier, especially post Tier 2.

So out of the officially released nine subclass so far, four are trash, one is meh, one is good for about half the game, two are pretty good and one is great.

The Monk is a class best played by those who really utilize the effects of the Conditions list. The blaster Monk should be available as an option to players that just want to punch and blast energy and play their anime style character, and that's totally fine if that's what you want to play. And that option simply doesn't exist, and honestly, there's no reason for it to not exist at this point.

[strangebloke]

I
So out of the officially released nine subclass so far, four are trash, one is meh, one is good for about half the game, two are pretty good and one is great.

Agree with everything but why you gotta call out my boy the kensei like that??

[Dork_Forge]

Having read through the Monk now, I don't see the big deal? No, it's not as powerful as the UA, which is to be expected. Power-wise it looks okay to me, it's not knocking any socks off, but it's different and not too much which, should be where new subclasses sit IMO.

Like the breath: It'd be a little disappointing if that's all you got, but it isn't... It's one of 3 abilities at 3rd level.

The 6th level ability is the only one I feel eh about, but in context, it has natural scaling and is a crazy amount of fly speed.


I myself am incredibly disappointed with the nerfs.

I firmly believed that during the UA, this was the fix for Four Elements and the underwhelming Sun Soul.

This was the blaster Monk. This was the pick for living out your dreams of the anime character firing off energy blasts, or the Dragonborn or Kobold utilizing all their ancestors power.

They ripped its heart out.

This was a blaster. Through and through. It was a blaster without being a spellcaster, which really don't exist in 5E. You were able to play something as a blaster without being a mage, it was a truly unique playstyle to where you could effectively engage in melee combat or effectively blast.

And its been beaten so badly with the nerf bat that I don't recognize it. Ki costs are way up, and now its a melee combatant that can occasionally throw out piddly AoE at a very high resource cost.

There's still no good blaster Monk option. And that's my problem. Its a playstyle option which still doesn't exist, this many years into 5E. They had the opportunity and the design team blew it.

Lets face it, most Monk subclasses suck. They do. They're outright terrible. Sun Soul, Four Elements, Drunken Master, Kensei are all hot garbage. Open Hand is good (god tier at Tier 4 play), Shadow is good, and Long Death is serviceable. Astral Self is... decent at higher tiers of play, and Mercy is god-tier, especially post Tier 2.

So out of the officially released nine subclass so far, four are trash, one is meh, one is good for about half the game, two are pretty good and one is great.

The Monk is a class best played by those who really utilize the effects of the Conditions list. The blaster Monk should be available as an option to players that just want to punch and blast energy and play their anime style character, and that's totally fine if that's what you want to play. And that option simply doesn't exist, and honestly, there's no reason for it to not exist at this point.

Not only do I not agree with your labelling of Monk subclasses as 'sucking' I don't understand what you even want. Your mention of anime characters conjures up Dragonball characters, specifically Z and beyond. But those characters were always primary melee characters with blasts being supplemental to that, which Sun Soul achieves, and gives you the option of Radiant Fireball.

I mean looking at your complaint, it seems that you're primarily bothered that... what the Ki cost for additional uses increased from 1 to 2? Does that really matter so much? I mean it's a short rest resource, you're still going to be breathing a whole bunch during the day.

I guess I don't understand your qualms, because the UA wasn't a blaster either, at least not how you describe, because you'd never be able to fulfill the role of blaster on a Monk as long as that thing required Ki in Tier 1 and probably most of Tier 2. You just wouldn't get to do it enough.

2 Ki is a sensible choice given that you're still making an attack, and with Tasha's rules that would give you another weapon attack too.

[jaappleton]

Agree with everything but why you gotta call out my boy the kensei like that??

LMAO.

I wanted to love the Kensei. Playing older D&D videogames, the 'sword saint' was so spectacular, and I wanted to love it in 5E. Where they faltered, IMO, was also shoving Zen Archer into it, and as a result neither Kensei or Zen Archer is able to shine at what they're supposed to be able to do.

I don't know why by WOTC refuses to allow Monk to do anything more than 'death by a thousand paper cuts', and its absolutely infuriating to me. And even when they push that envelope ever so slightly, it never feels like enough. An additional martial arts die damage? Come the hell on. Let a Monk do any sort of Nova whatsoever before level 17, for crying out loud.

[Ralanr]

I don't know why by WOTC refuses to allow Monk to do anything more than 'death by a thousand paper cuts', and its absolutely infuriating to me. And even when they push that envelope ever so slightly, it never feels like enough. An additional martial arts die damage? Come the hell on. Let a Monk do any sort of Nova whatsoever before level 17, for crying out loud.

I'll admit I don't know enough about the monk, but I imagine the answer to this is generally, "We don't want it to be anything else by a thousand cuts" or something stupid.

I still have issues with Barbarians not really getting much diversity in their subclasses. The two most recent help, but I feel out of all the classes (except artificer because it came late) Barbarian gets the least design space for new subclass options.

The monk nerf does feel unwarranted, but maybe it feels better in play than it does on paper. Paper is flimsy when wet after all.

[Amechra]

Lets face it, most Monk subclasses suck. They do. They're outright terrible. Sun Soul, Four Elements, Drunken Master, Kensei are all hot garbage. Open Hand is good (god tier at Tier 4 play), Shadow is good, and Long Death is serviceable. Astral Self is... decent at higher tiers of play, and Mercy is god-tier, especially post Tier 2.

As someone who played a Drunken Master from 5th to 15th... I disagree with this assessment. Drunken Technique is very, very nice.


Having read through the Monk now, I don't see the big deal? No, it's not as powerful as the UA, which is to be expected. Power-wise it looks okay to me, it's not knocking any socks off, but it's different and not too much which, should be where new subclasses sit IMO.

Like the breath: It'd be a little disappointing if that's all you got, but it isn't... It's one of 3 abilities at 3rd level.

The 6th level ability is the only one I feel eh about, but in context, it has natural scaling and is a crazy amount of fly speed.

Basically the original was a little too strong and overly clunky, and then they cut the power level without making it less clunky.

And I dunno... I don't think "I can fly at my (admittedly quite high) dashing speed for 3 rounds a day" deserves to be called a crazy amount of fly speed. But that might just be me.

[strangebloke]

LMAO.

I wanted to love the Kensei. Playing older D&D videogames, the 'sword saint' was so spectacular, and I wanted to love it in 5E. Where they faltered, IMO, was also shoving Zen Archer into it, and as a result neither Kensei or Zen Archer is able to shine at what they're supposed to be able to do.

I don't know why by WOTC refuses to allow Monk to do anything more than 'death by a thousand paper cuts', and its absolutely infuriating to me. And even when they push that envelope ever so slightly, it never feels like enough. An additional martial arts die damage? Come the hell on. Let a Monk do any sort of Nova whatsoever before level 17, for crying out loud.

The kensei is relatively strong at high levels, its just also awkward and doesn't 100% feel like it should.

I don't know that I completely agree with the idea that all monks have to play the same style.

Shadow monk gets to be a stealth master
Astral gets to be a Wisdom-based grappler
Kensei can be the zen archer (though IMO they should also get two-handed weapons so they can wield a giant washing-pole style sword like Sasaki Kojiro. Another victim of unnecessary post-UA nerfs)
4e is bad but can absolutely nuke an enemy

[jaappleton]

I'll admit I don't know enough about the monk, but I imagine the answer to this is generally, "We don't want it to be anything else by a thousand cuts" or something stupid.

I still have issues with Barbarians not really getting much diversity in their subclasses. The two most recent help, but I feel out of all the classes (except artificer because it came late) Barbarian gets the least design space for new subclass options.

The monk nerf does feel unwarranted, but maybe it feels better in play than it does on paper. Paper is flimsy when wet after all.

With the Ascendant Dragon, and really every single Monk subclass as a whole, I fear the design team has a terrible mindset of, "We can't let it do too much"

Well, that's fine... but they're looking at it on paper. SO MUCH of what the Monk does is dependent on Ki. Stunning Strike, Flurry, Deflect Missiles attack all at 5th level and below, PLUS you then get to your Subclass features which further eat into what you can do with Ki.

Its too precious a resource.

But the design teams mindset is, "Well it can do this litany of things". Not really, when everything is so damn expensive as far as their resources. It gives them the OPTION to do all of these abilities, but not to do them consistently. And especially at Tier 1 and 2, which is where the majority of games are played, all it does is give the player choice paralysis as they weight all their resources. And don't get me started on if the Monk is the only short rest dependent character in the party...

The ONLY subclass for the Monk which alleviates this is the Mercy Monk, because at level 11 you don't spend Ki anymore for its main subclass features.

TL;DR
I fear the design team fundamentally misunderstands the Monk in play, and as a result, most of the subclasses are terrible.

[strangebloke]

With the Ascendant Dragon, and really every single Monk subclass as a whole, I fear the design team has a terrible mindset of, "We can't let it do too much"

Well, that's fine... but they're looking at it on paper. SO MUCH of what the Monk does is dependent on Ki. Stunning Strike, Flurry, Deflect Missiles attack all at 5th level and below, PLUS you then get to your Subclass features which further eat into what you can do with Ki.

Its too precious a resource.

But the design teams mindset is, "Well it can do this litany of things". Not really, when everything is so damn expensive as far as their resources. It gives them the OPTION to do all of these abilities, but not to do them consistently. And especially at Tier 1 and 2, which is where the majority of games are played, all it does is give the player choice paralysis as they weight all their resources. And don't get me started on if the Monk is the only short rest dependent character in the party...

The ONLY subclass for the Monk which alleviates this is the Mercy Monk, because at level 11 you don't spend Ki anymore for its main subclass features.

TL;DR
I fear the design team fundamentally misunderstands the Monk in play, and as a result, most of the subclasses are terrible.

as an example here, imagine if the shadow monk could only teleport and turn invisible by using ki.

[Ralanr]

With the Ascendant Dragon, and really every single Monk subclass as a whole, I fear the design team has a terrible mindset of, "We can't let it do too much"



Ironic given the nature of spellcasting.

[jaappleton]

Ironic given the nature of spellcasting.

WIZARDS of the Coast, after all.

[Amnestic]

At least the UA version will remain freely accessible, I suppose, and if someone wants to play a dragonmonk I'll point them at that version instead.

I do have to wonder what feedback looked like for these changes though.

[Hael]

Question for the people who have the book. Draconic disciple allows you to change your unarmed strikes into an element of choice. If the wording is the same as the UA does that mean that you have too, or that it’s a choice. B/c if its forced on you, it loses the ability the use Crusher, which is irratating.

[Ralanr]

WIZARDS of the Coast, after all.

The more I hear about the class bias in WOTC's designs, the more frustrated I become.

[Hael]

Unlike AC, which tend to fall in a narrow range, saves tend to have a high displacement. You have anything from -3 to +5 to dex saves with lower CRs and that gap widens as you see tougher mooks an minions.

Yea and I mean it gets into metagaming and how different tables treat that. Ditto with resistances. Our DM actively changes statblocks to prevent this issue.

[Amechra]

A lot of that's just because the designers (and the player base) want the Monk to have a playstyle that's drastically different from anything else, so the Monk has to "waste" features on catching up, and (much like the Barbarian) they end up looking unimpressive if they don't have access to their Do Cool Stuff resource. And they get much less of it than, say, a spellcaster.

The Barbarian runs into a related problem, where they spent their design budget on giving them an incredibly powerful combat buff and then tied the big stuff their subclasses do to that buff. However... Rage giving you all kinds of Resistances actually isn't as powerful as it looks — the rest of the Barbarian chassis makes it more likely for you to get hit, and you need that Resistance to be as survivable as a Fighter in full plate.

EDIT: I actually think one of the big mistakes they made was starting Monk unarmed damage low and then making it scale slowly. I think they should've gone the Unarmed Fighting Style route and just gave you the ability to use your fists as a reasonable weapon by default.

[Ralanr]

A lot of that's just because the designers (and the player base) want the Monk to have a playstyle that's drastically different from anything else, so the Monk has to "waste" features on catching up, and (much like the Barbarian) they end up looking unimpressive if they don't have access to their Do Cool Stuff resource. And they get much less of it than, say, a spellcaster.

The Barbarian runs into a related problem, where they spent their design budget on giving them an incredibly powerful combat buff and then tied the big stuff their subclasses do to that buff. However... Rage giving you all kinds of Resistances actually isn't as powerful as it looks — the rest of the Barbarian chassis makes it more likely for you to get hit, and you need that Resistance to be as survivable as a Fighter in full plate.

Ah yes, the 'chassis is too strong' problem despite that chassis not working well when you don't have the core ability at all (I still believe that when a barbarian isn't raging, they are a worse fighter. And it makes sense, barbarians are linked around rage. But with how it's stuck to be a long rest only martial class it gets really annoying).

Barbarians be suffering from success.

[Amnestic]

Not to move away from monks to barbarians too much, but I think it's notable that you can give barbarians one of their level 20 features - Unlimited Rages - at 1st level and it doesn't really change their power level all that much, if at all. More fun to play for sure.

"Why not just make them always raging then?" Primarily for surprise round/low initiative situations I guess.

You could probably do the same with monk's free-ki level 20 capstone tbh (though maybe change it to WisMod ki instead of a flat 4?).

[Ralanr]

Not to move away from monks to barbarians too much, but I think it's notable that you can give barbarians one of their level 20 features - Unlimited Rages - at 1st level and it doesn't really change their power level all that much, if at all. More fun to play for sure.

"Why not just make them always raging then?" Primarily for surprise round/low initiative situations I guess.

You could probably do the same with monk's free-ki level 20 capstone tbh (though maybe change it to WisMod ki instead of a flat 4?).

Then you could see barbarians actually use their athletics advantage outside of combat more. But I wouldn't see it happening. D&D is about resource management.

[Amnestic]

It wouldn't be unheard of for a class to have no SR/LR resources outside of HD and health - rogues (excepting some subclasses) already do this.

[Ralanr]

It wouldn't be unheard of for a class to have no SR/LR resources outside of HD and health - rogues (excepting some subclasses) already do this.

True, but my issue with barbarians is that they've basically become a LR class, putting them in the same boat as most casters when it comes to replenishing resources. Power wise, I don't think it's a fair assumption and it makes the barbarian the only martial character who can't really do the energizer bunny thing of 'keeps swinging' which martial characters are supposedly meant for.

And at least the sorcerer and wizards have ways to get back stuff on a short rest. When barbarians run out of rage, they're a worse fighter.

But this is off topic.

[Dork_Forge]

With the Ascendant Dragon, and really every single Monk subclass as a whole, I fear the design team has a terrible mindset of, "We can't let it do too much"

Well, that's fine... but they're looking at it on paper. SO MUCH of what the Monk does is dependent on Ki. Stunning Strike, Flurry, Deflect Missiles attack all at 5th level and below, PLUS you then get to your Subclass features which further eat into what you can do with Ki.

Its too precious a resource.

But the design teams mindset is, "Well it can do this litany of things". Not really, when everything is so damn expensive as far as their resources. It gives them the OPTION to do all of these abilities, but not to do them consistently. And especially at Tier 1 and 2, which is where the majority of games are played, all it does is give the player choice paralysis as they weight all their resources. And don't get me started on if the Monk is the only short rest dependent character in the party...

The Monk has loosely three different templates for their subclasses (this refers to the primary features gained at 3rd level):

-Flurry Enhancement

-At will

-Straight Ki cost

Flurry enhancement isn't increasing your Ki cost, it's maximising the value of the Ki you'd likely want to spend anyway.

At will is obviously free.

Straight Ki cost is usually for more powerful or lasting effects, which seems fair.


The ONLY subclass for the Monk which alleviates this is the Mercy Monk, because at level 11 you don't spend Ki anymore for its main subclass features.

Sun Soul has no Ki cost for it's core feature and gets an at will AOE

Kensei has no cost for their core features

The Ascendant Dragon has an at will ability, and two limited resources, one with the option to spend Ki to gain more uses.

I'm not saying you misunderstand the ability, but it feels like you're writing off the free uses and just jumping to the Ki cost, but I think it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what the design is meant to be:

It's meant to make you feel like you have dragon powers, and dragons don't breathe at will. This was never intended to be a blaster.



TL;DR
I fear the design team fundamentally misunderstands the Monk in play, and as a result, most of the subclasses are terrible.

I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but I don't think this one is accurate.

[jaappleton]

The Monk has loosely three different templates for their subclasses (this refers to the primary features gained at 3rd level):

-Flurry Enhancement

-At will

-Straight Ki cost

Flurry enhancement isn't increasing your Ki cost, it's maximising the value of the Ki you'd likely want to spend anyway.

At will is obviously free.

Straight Ki cost is usually for more powerful or lasting effects, which seems fair.



Sun Soul has no Ki cost for it's core feature and gets an at will AOE

Kensei has no cost for their core features

The Ascendant Dragon has an at will ability, and two limited resources, one with the option to spend Ki to gain more uses.

I'm not saying you misunderstand the ability, but it feels like you're writing off the free uses and just jumping to the Ki cost, but I think it's just a fundamental misunderstanding of what the design is meant to be:

It's meant to make you feel like you have dragon powers, and dragons don't breathe at will. This was never intended to be a blaster.




I don't agree with a lot of their decisions, but I don't think this one is accurate.

A 2d6 AoE without spending Ki is hardly worth using your Ki for.

[Segev]

Thinking about it, if the dragon breath didn't cost anything, but could only be used replacing one of the two attacks granted by Flurry of Blows, would that hinder its usefulness in undesirable ways? Would that make it too powerful?

[stoutstien]

Yea and I mean it gets into metagaming and how different tables treat that. Ditto with resistances. Our DM actively changes statblocks to prevent this issue.

It's a feature not a bug. Hopefully DMs are giving you enough information that the metagaming isn't even a factor. Hobgoblins are wearing heavier armor which mean they most likely don't have much in the way of Dex, orcs are tough brutes that are equally easy to hit but can take a beating, satyrs are fast moving fey so will have better than average dex and possibly magical defensive abilities.


The whole randomize stats and weaknesses to prevent metagaming means you just shift it over so they will rely on the less risky damage types. The metagaming is still there and if anything it's a stronger factor.

[Dork_Forge]

A 2d6 AoE without spending Ki is hardly worth using your Ki for.

I can't tell if you're talking about the Ascendant Dragon at levels 5-11 or the Sun Soul's Searing Sunburst.

I'll start with Searing Sunburst:

It's better than having an AOE cantrip and scales up to very powerful proportions with an absolutely massive range.

Dragon breath:

It's part of the attack action, evaluating it as only the breath damage is not a fair comparison. It's replacing a single instance of weapon/unarmed strike die + mod, and it should be compared against that. It compares favourably if there are actually multiple enemies to catch in it.


Thinking about it, if the dragon breath didn't cost anything, but could only be used replacing one of the two attacks granted by Flurry of Blows, would that hinder its usefulness in undesirable ways? Would that make it too powerful?

I'd rather not, it limits your options e.g. can't use it and Patient Defense/Step of the Wind.

As it is right now you can literally fly overhead and breath down on enemies like a dragon.

At level 6.

That's pretty cool.

[Segev]

I'd rather not, it limits your options e.g. can't use it and Patient Defense/Step of the Wind.

As it is right now you can literally fly overhead and breath down on enemies like a dragon.

At level 6.

That's pretty cool.

I was concerned there might be things that limited you from. What if you had no separate pool of uses, but could do it for 1 ki, or could do it without spending additional ki as one of your Flurries? (Still only once on each of your turns.)

[Dork_Forge]

I was concerned there might be things that limited you from. What if you had no separate pool of uses, but could do it for 1 ki, or could do it without spending additional ki as one of your Flurries? (Still only once on each of your turns.)

Hmm, it's an at-the-time power buff, but will probably result in fewer uses/lower overall damage in earlier levels. I think that's okay, not something I'd necessarily go for myself since you get your bonus attack with it anyway, but I don't think it's a problem.

[Segev]

Hmm, it's an at-the-time power buff, but will probably result in fewer uses/lower overall damage in earlier levels. I think that's okay, not something I'd necessarily go for myself since you get your bonus attack with it anyway, but I don't think it's a problem.

I'm unsure if it would be overpowered, but another way to make it really freely usable would be to make it something you could do once per turn in place of any unarmed strike. Edit: No ki cost. No limited number of uses.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm unsure if it would be overpowered, but another way to make it really freely usable would be to make it something you could do once per turn in place of any unarmed strike. Edit: No ki cost. No limited number of uses.

I'm okay with the ability to replace any unarmed strike, but the unlimited uses seems a but much, not just in terms of power, but also in terms of the theme of the subclass.

[Foolwise]

The Monk has loosely three different templates for their subclasses (this refers to the primary features gained at 3rd level):

-Flurry Enhancement

-At will

-Straight Ki cost

Flurry enhancement isn't increasing your Ki cost, it's maximising the value of the Ki you'd likely want to spend anyway.

At will is obviously free.

Nitpicking here, but I wouldn't call a PB-limited free resource an at will ability.

[Segev]

I'm okay with the ability to replace any unarmed strike, but the unlimited uses seems a but much, not just in terms of power, but also in terms of the theme of the subclass.

What is athematic about it? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but I need elaboration.

[Dork_Forge]

Nitpicking here, but I wouldn't call a PB-limited free resource an at will ability.

Neither would I, but I'd certainly call the unlimited use damage switching they get at 3rd level at will.


What is athematic about it? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but I need elaboration.

A dragon breathing is an event, they can't do it whenever they please, this also applies to Dragonborn, so making a Dragon Monk better at using their 'breath weapon' than an actual dragon and dragonfolk just seems off. I also think it would then dominate the design space, this wasn't intended as an AOE spam kind of subclass.

[Kane0]

Anyone got a link to the original UA discussion thread? I cant remember what I said about the first version.

Edit: nevermind, found it.
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?630031-New-UA-Draconic-OptionsUA

[ATHATH]

As it is right now you can literally fly overhead and breath down on enemies like a dragon.

At level 6.

That's pretty cool.
And a Sorcerer or Wizard can do that 3 levels earlier (or 1 level earlier if they're not a flying species) with Dragon's Breath.

[Dork_Forge]

And a Sorcerer or Wizard can do that 3 levels earlier (or 1 level earlier if they're not a flying species) with Dragon's Breath.

I'm not really sure what your point is here, yes you can get flight from a small number of race options..?

That doesn't take away from it being cool that the dragon Monk can do a dragon staple.

[ProsecutorGodot]

And a Sorcerer or Wizard can do that 3 levels earlier (or 1 level earlier if they're not a flying species) with Dragon's Breath.

They're definitely not flying and using dragon's breath, both of those spells require concentration. This is a combo specific to Wizards or Sorcerer's with an innate flying speed or their familiars.


That doesn't take away from it being cool that the dragon Monk can do a dragon staple.
On top of still being a regular Monk, which have their own cool stuff.

[Foolwise]

They're definitely not flying and using dragon's breath, both of those spells require concentration. This is a combo specific to Wizards or Sorcerer's with an innate flying speed or their familiars.

Unless they fly to the point of attack, dragon breath, and feather fall into the carnage with their next breath attack at the ready.

[strangebloke]

this is the most annoying point in the tired martial/caster debate. When people bring up "oh yes casters can fly and shoot acid at level 5 so they're exactly the same as an advanced player concept built around those things." What, is a fifth level wizard also indistinguishable from a dragon? Is there literally no difference between a levitating wizard with poison spray and an elder black dragon?

The numbers (HP, damage, AC, movement speed) matter in this edition. You can't just say "Behold a dragon" when something shoots floats a bit and deals elemental damage, they actually need numbers to back it up to some extent.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Unless they fly to the point of attack, dragon breath, and feather fall into the carnage with their next breath attack at the ready.

The rules don't really support this, they assume you fall immediately so when you cast Dragon's Breath you immediately fall 15ft (assuming we're adopting the "target a circular area with a cone" strategy) and, if you have no way to reduce or avoid fall damage, take 1d6 damage and make a concentration check for your Dragon's Breath before you've even had the chance to use the action part of it.

You also can't Feather Fall in the same turn you cast Dragon's Breath, the only other spell you can cast that turn is a Cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

The Monk, however, can do all of those things in the same turn. None of which take their concentration.

[Dork_Forge]

Unless they fly to the point of attack, dragon breath, and feather fall into the carnage with their next breath attack at the ready.

Whilst that sounds cool, it is an awful idea for so, so many reasons for the vast majority of Sorcerers and Wizards.

Being able to cludge together something reminiscent of what I pointed out doesn't detract from the Ascendant Dragon being cool and dragon-like, and even if you do cludge it together they'll be worse at the overall concept than the Monk is.

I mean at the level this comes online the Monk is Flying for 80ft a turn and it just increases from there.

And that's assuming they're not one of the many races with an increased speed. And there's way more races that interact with speed than there are races that can fly.

A Wood Elf is looking at 100ft

A Tabaxi could cruise around for 160ft for that turn

And the Monk doing this is not only not concentrating on anything, they're also doing it with a larger AOE that can take different shapes and smacking people at the same time.

To look at it a little less thematically and more mechanically, a Monk doing this could breath on the approach catching as many targets in the AOE as possible, and then Monk slap someone on the way past since they're benefiting from the disengage action.

[Ralanr]

this is the most annoying point in the tired martial/caster debate. When people bring up "oh yes casters can fly and shoot acid at level 5 so they're exactly the same as an advanced player concept built around those things." What, is a fifth level wizard also indistinguishable from a dragon? Is there literally no difference between a levitating wizard with poison spray and an elder black dragon?

The numbers (HP, damage, AC, movement speed) matter in this edition. You can't just say "Behold a dragon" when something shoots floats a bit and deals elemental damage, they actually need numbers to back it up to some extent.

The more I read this, the more I thought of Plato stripping a chicken of its feathers and shouting, "Behold, a man!"

[ProsecutorGodot]

To look at it a little less thematically and more mechanically, a Monk doing this could breath on the approach catching as many targets in the AOE as possible, and then Monk slap someone on the way past since they're benefiting from the disengage action.

My mental image was to fly in, punch the guy (perhaps attempt to shove prone) and fly straight up to piledrive him into the ground with a gout of fire, 3 point landing on the charred corpse for bonus points. It's definitely extra for the sake of being extra but it's pretty cool.

[P. G. Macer]

The more I read this, the more I thought of Plato stripping a chicken of its feathers and shouting, "Behold, a man!"

That was Diogenes, not Plato. Diogenes was trolling Plato’s definition of humans as ”featherless bipeds”.

Back on topic, I’m in a game with a player using the UA version of the Way of the Ascendant Dragon, and they and the DM were both disgusted with the changes in the published version, so they’re just going to continue to use the UA. I do feel bad for those players who play in AL and/or don’t know about Unearthed Arcana, given that they’re stuck with the Fizban’s version.

[Dork_Forge]

My mental image was to fly in, punch the guy (perhaps attempt to shove prone) and fly straight up to piledrive him into the ground with a gout of fire, 3 point landing on the charred corpse for bonus points. It's definitely extra for the sake of being extra but it's pretty cool.

Bonus points if you grapple them and fly them up, then drop and push them down with fire.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Bonus points if you grapple them and fly them up, then drop and push them down with fire.

Work's great if you choose Dash rather than Disengage for Step of the Wind, I like the way you think.

[strangebloke]

Work's great if you choose Dash rather than Disengage for Step of the Wind, I like the way you think.

fun fact, stunned creatures auto-fail grapple checks.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

[ProsecutorGodot]

fun fact, stunned creatures auto-fail grapple checks.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

We'd need to be Hasted at that point unless we're stunning them the previous round, we can only do 2 of the 3 things on a turn we use Step of the Wind.

I think it's thoroughly been demonstrated at this point though that the subclass is still very cool and even has internal synergies like Stunning Strike to force an auto fail on the Breath Attack save. If I hadn't just made my new character an Astral Self Monk I'd certainly be considering this subclass for its cool factor alone.

[Ralanr]

That was Diogenes, not Plato. Diogenes was trolling Plato’s definition of humans as ”featherless bipeds”.

Back on topic, I’m in a game with a player using the UA version of the Way of the Ascendant Dragon, and they and the DM were both disgusted with the changes in the published version, so they’re just going to continue to use the UA. I do feel bad for those players who play in AL and/or don’t know about Unearthed Arcana, given that they’re stuck with the Fizban’s version.

Dang, curse my terrible memory.

[Dork_Forge]

Work's great if you choose Dash rather than Disengage for Step of the Wind, I like the way you think.


fun fact, stunned creatures auto-fail grapple checks.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

Sooooo 8th level PC, Monk 6/Fighter2, Tabaxi race

Attack to get your stun, twice if necessary, if stun on first attempt spit (acid) in their face

Grapple, feline agility to balance out the half move from dragging, carry them up 60ft (let's be conservative and say you had to close distance), drop and breathe for breath and 6d6 fall damage.

Since they're stunned they'll fail the breath saving throw(s) automatically.


Okay so I want to play one of these now, what of it.

Character story: You Shape Changed into a cat folk to annoy the mortals and got stuck this way, leveling up is slowly regaining your dragon powers.

[stoutstien]

fun fact, stunned creatures auto-fail grapple checks.

:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin::smallbi ggrin:

Going be a tough call sometime with SS. Attack with advantage or nailing them with a breath attack they will automatically fail. Points for flavor stunning someone and then going old school scorpion on them.

[Captain Panda]

Poor monks. I wasn't going to play one anyway, but they just never get thrown a bone.

[strangebloke]

We'd need to be Hasted at that point unless we're stunning them the previous round, we can only do 2 of the 3 things on a turn we use Step of the Wind.


haste, or you stunned them off an OA, or you took 2-3 levels of fighter for action surge.

Or (my personal fav) all of the above. Take (effectively) four actions in a single turn.

[ATHATH]

They're definitely not flying and using dragon's breath, both of those spells require concentration. This is a combo specific to Wizards or Sorcerer's with an innate flying speed or their familiars.
Touche, I forgot that both DB and Fly require concentration.


The numbers (HP, damage, AC, movement speed) matter in this edition. You can't just say "Behold a dragon" when something shoots floats a bit and deals elemental damage, they actually need numbers to back it up to some extent.
Exactly, which is why I'm expressing disappointment that a level 2 spell is able to give the defining feature of a subclass a good run for its money.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Character story: You Shape Changed into a cat folk to annoy the mortals and got stuck this way, leveling up is slowly regaining your dragon powers.

"I - AM - A - MIGHTY - DRAGON" he says, interrupted by retching. By the end of his coughing fit, a caustic lump of fur and bile erupts from his mouth, quickly dissolving a small crater into the floor before settling with a horrible stench.

[strangebloke]

Exactly, which is why I'm expressing disappointment that a level 2 spell is able to give the defining feature of a subclass a good run for its money.

I don't think its fair to compare them, considering the large opportunity cost Dragon's breath represents and how easy it is to lose the spell, particularly at low levels.

[stoutstien]

haste, or you stunned them off an OA, or you took 2-3 levels of fighter for action surge.

Or (my personal fav) all of the above. Take (effectively) four actions in a single turn.

Hmmm now I'm wondering how to use a WoAD dip for some lite AoE and elemental punching on a rune knight or barbarian. Time to update my Gamera build.

[Unoriginal]

Exactly, which is why I'm expressing disappointment that a level 2 spell is able to give the defining feature of a subclass a good run for its money.

What makes you consider that the level 2 spell is giving the feature a good run for its money?

[Arkhios]

I'm actually pretty glad, now, that I never paid much attention to the UA version of these subclasses.
Glancing through the gripe over this topic, I think I'll avoid reading the UA altogether, and be happy with what I'll see when I read the final version. :smallwink:

[stoutstien]

I'm actually pretty glad, now, that I never paid much attention to the UA version of these subclasses.
Glancing through the gripe over this topic, I think I'll avoid reading the UA altogether, and be happy with what I'll see when I read the final version. :smallwink:

Unless you plan to actually play test the material and give useful feedback that probably the best idea for most players who are involved with groups that like to keep stuff Raw.

[Frogreaver]

I was honestly just hoping that they'd cut the "you can do this X times per long rest before you have to start spending ki on it" thing and leave everything else alone. Giving Monks long-rest resources just kinda feels wrong.

One of the biggest monk complaints was they had to always spend ki for subclass abilities. I’m glad they are doing something about that.

[jaappleton]

A huge issue to fix the monk is a magic item I've been harping about since 5e's release.

There's magic items that restore abilities. Rod of the Pact Keeper grants a spell slot replenishment for Warlocks. The Arcane Grimoire further empowers Arcane Recovery for Wizards. Amulet of the Devout grants an additional Channel Divinity use for Clerics & Paladins.

Where's the Ki restoring magic item for Monks? Where is the Monk magic item support at all?

Since PHB, there's been Insignia of Claws from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which also helps Druids in wild shape. Alright, cool. Then it took until Tasha's for the tattoos, which help a few play styles and not just Monks. There's a legendary item which isn't even support to be obtainable in Candlekeep.

There's really no magic item support specifically for Monks. None. And what is available is few and far between, and took years to get.

Not that any class / subclass should be 'fixed' with magic items, but bandages can stop wounds from bleeding.

[Ralanr]

A huge issue to fix the monk is a magic item I've been harping about since 5e's release.

There's magic items that restore abilities. Rod of the Pact Keeper grants a spell slot replenishment for Warlocks. The Arcane Grimoire further empowers Arcane Recovery for Wizards. Amulet of the Devout grants an additional Channel Divinity use for Clerics & Paladins.

Where's the Ki restoring magic item for Monks? Where is the Monk magic item support at all?

Since PHB, there's been Insignia of Claws from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which also helps Druids in wild shape. Alright, cool. Then it took until Tasha's for the tattoos, which help a few play styles and not just Monks. There's a legendary item which isn't even support to be obtainable in Candlekeep.

There's really no magic item support specifically for Monks. None. And what is available is few and far between, and took years to get.

Not that any class / subclass should be 'fixed' with magic items, but bandages can stop wounds from bleeding.


A lot of pure martial classes don't have direct magic item support. Arguably this is done through +X items such as weapons or armor that boost their passive stuff. Because that's all martial characters need sadly. I agree the monk lacked it the most, having no item to replenish ki when you'd think there would be such items locked in ancient monestaries.

Now there is. And I kind of wish we had more for other martial subclasses. I'd love to see a barbarian only attunement magic item, maybe something that restores some rages on a short rest. This does however feel like it's trying to solve class problems with items, which I have mixed feelings on.

On one hand: Requiring a class to perform at its best through the requirement of a magic item instead of a magic item providing new opportunities just screams sort of frustrating design. Especially since players have no control over what items they get, DMs do (and IMO, rightly so).

On the other: Everyone loves having a magic item that makes their gameplay style stronger. No martial is going to say no to a +X item if it's strictly better than their current (which is why I hate +X items in D&D if I'm being honest).

[Unoriginal]

A huge issue to fix the monk is a magic item I've been harping about since 5e's release.

There's magic items that restore abilities. Rod of the Pact Keeper grants a spell slot replenishment for Warlocks. The Arcane Grimoire further empowers Arcane Recovery for Wizards. Amulet of the Devout grants an additional Channel Divinity use for Clerics & Paladins.

Where's the Ki restoring magic item for Monks? Where is the Monk magic item support at all?

Since PHB, there's been Insignia of Claws from Hoard of the Dragon Queen, which also helps Druids in wild shape. Alright, cool. Then it took until Tasha's for the tattoos, which help a few play styles and not just Monks. There's a legendary item which isn't even support to be obtainable in Candlekeep.

There's really no magic item support specifically for Monks. None. And what is available is few and far between, and took years to get.

Not that any class / subclass should be 'fixed' with magic items, but bandages can stop wounds from bleeding.

The Fizban's has the item you want.

Dragonhide Belt.

[jaappleton]

The Fizban's has the item you want.

Dragonhide Belt.

FINALLY? Is it finally happening?

I hadn't seen the Fizban's items yet. I'll browse around this morning and try to take a look.

EDIT:

Ok, I just found it.

YES. FINALLY. IT TOOK THIS LONG?! ABOUT TIME. Long overdue, but finally. FINALLY. No idea why the hell its in this book and not Tasha's, or why it has ANYTHING to do with dragons. But YES. Not quite exactly what I wanted, I'd have preferred 'regain Ki equal to your Wisdom modifier', but I'll take it.

[Amnestic]

Would very much appreciate more (sub)class specific items instead of general stuff that anyone can use, especially ones that interact with specific subclass features.

Thematic items work too. And item 'sets'.

[Foolwise]

FINALLY? Is it finally happening?

I hadn't seen the Fizban's items yet. I'll browse around this morning and try to take a look.

EDIT:

Ok, I just found it.

YES. FINALLY. IT TOOK THIS LONG?! ABOUT TIME. Long overdue, but finally. FINALLY. No idea why the hell its in this book and not Tasha's, or why it has ANYTHING to do with dragons. But YES. Not quite exactly what I wanted, I'd have preferred 'regain Ki equal to your Wisdom modifier', but I'll take it.

Yeah, I agree with you. A roll of your MA die is worse than WIS mod (assuming 16) at early levels when it is needed more, and slighty better than 20 WIS at later levels when it is needed less.

But a starving person will take what they can get.

[jaappleton]

Yeah, I agree with you. A roll of your MA die is worse than WIS mod (assuming 16) at early levels when it is needed more, and slighty better than 20 WIS at later levels when it is needed less.

But a starving person will take what they can get.

I just don't want to roll a 1 :smalltongue:

[Foolwise]

I just don't want to roll a 1 :smalltongue:

Quick HB: "When you use this ability of the belt and roll a 1, you may immediately use that ki point gained to reroll to replenish ki. You must take the result of the second roll."

[Amechra]

One of the biggest monk complaints was they had to always spend ki for subclass abilities. I’m glad they are doing something about that.

That's mostly a perception thing, though — if you actually look at most Monk subclasses, the abilities that cost ki tend to be situationally useful, while the core bread-and-butter features don't cost anything (or just serve as an upgrade for Flurry of Blows, which you were going to be spending ki on anyway). Or, in the case of the Kensei and Shadow Monk, the best time to use their ki-hungry features is in situations where you can't spend ki on Flurry of Blows or Stunning Strike, like in a non-combat encounter or while fighting at range.

This is why I'm actually a little weirded out when people point at the Mercy Monk and act like it's the Super Cheap Monk What Gets More Bang For Its Ki Buck. When I was playing my (pre-Tier 3) Mercy Monk, I always felt like I was starved for ki, since I was spending it on Touch of Death and Flurry of Blows and trying to hold some points back to help top up the party during short rests. I mean, yeah, sure, I felt super strong (the ability to punch harder than a greatsword does that for you), but it felt way less efficient than my Drunken Master (who just wanted to spend ki on Flurry of Blows).

Also, I will say that the whole "Hands of Healing can replace a Flurry of Blows attack for free" thing came up way less than I thought it would. This might have more to do with the fact that half the party was ranged and the other half was a tanky paladin and myself than anything to do with the subclass itself.

Funnily enough, I think the Way of the Astral Self is literally the only Monk subclass that doesn't do anything if you're out of ki. Drunken Master, Four Elements, and Mercy both come close, but you still have some bonus proficiencies or Elemental Attunement to help keep you warm.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Funnily enough, I think the Way of the Astral Self is literally the only Monk subclass that doesn't do anything if you're out of ki. Drunken Master, Four Elements, and Mercy both come close, but you still have some bonus proficiencies or Elemental Attunement to help keep you warm.

Which I think is by design, you're the subclass focused on mastery of Ki.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Poor monks. I wasn't going to play one anyway, but they just never get thrown a bone.

That is because of Deflect Missiles...never throw things at a monk.🃏

[stoutstien]

Which I think is by design, you're the subclass focused on mastery of Ki.
I don't see why that subclass is mastery over ki more or less so than any other option.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I don't see why that subclass is mastery over ki more or less so than any other option.

Mostly because the ability descriptions say so, your mastery of Ki is what allows you to manifest your Astral Self, that description wouldn't make sense if you didn't manipulate Ki to activate it.

The Wisdom in place of Dexterity trait while your arms are active also encourages that, you're given more incentive than most other Monk subclasses to prioritize Wisdom over Dexterity.

[Ralanr]

Mostly because the ability descriptions say so, your mastery of Ki is what allows you to manifest your Astral Self, that description wouldn't make sense if you didn't manipulate Ki to activate it.

The Wisdom in place of Dexterity trait while your arms are active also encourages that, you're given more incentive than most other Monk subclasses to prioritize Wisdom over Dexterity.

Which is weird since Monks want that Wis anyway for unarmored defense. So really it's just swapping your two highest scores, where instead of putting your highest to dex, it's to wis.

It's either a difference of +1 or 0.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Which is weird since Monks want that Wis anyway for unarmored defense. So really it's just swapping your two highest scores, where instead of putting your highest to dex, it's to wis.

It's either a difference of +1 or 0.

It's obviously not optimal but you could also opt to have Dexterity as a tertiary score and focus on Constitution.

I like that this can allow you, at least in a limited capacity, fulfill the fantasy of an internal master of martial arts who may not be a peak physical master.

To try and wind this a bit more on topic - I think recent monk subclasses do a good job at delivering their intended fantasies and being mechanically powerful enough to fulfill that fantasy in play.

[Arkhios]

Unless you plan to actually play test the material and give useful feedback that probably the best idea for most players who are involved with groups that like to keep stuff Raw.

Well, my current group is primarily playing 3.5 right now, with no plans to shift to 5th edition, and our other group that used to play primarily 5th edition haven't been active for several years, now. I've almost given up hope that I might get to play 5th edition ever again. Almost, but not quite yet.

[stoutstien]

Well, my current group is primarily playing 3.5 right now, with no plans to shift to 5th edition, and our other group that used to play primarily 5th edition haven't been active for several years, now. I've almost given up hope that I might get to play 5th edition ever again. Almost, but not quite yet.

I feel ya. It's strange. As a player I don't necessarily love the rules of 3.5 but it's more enjoyable to play. As a DM I enjoy the amount of support 3.5 gives you but I don't really like running it. I despise the lack of resources 5e gives DMs but I really like the system as a whole to run games.

You can see the system stressing at the seams with every new player option they add. As I mentioned earlier using a actual reroll/recharge like dragons do would probably be fine mechanically but it starts to push the boundaries of the simplicity that 5e is striving for. There's only so many different ways that you can take an action and add some extra stuff to it every now and then.

[Asmotherion]

So you tubers are starting to get their advance copies and we’ve seen that, despite how underpowered monks are, they’ve doubled the cost of their signature ability dragons breath to 2 ki.

It already was a fairly weak aoe, and I was ok with the lack of “dragon warlock” because this would be then (close-to) at will cheaper dragons breath.

But at the level they get their breath, they are outclassed by a wizard with a single 2nd level spell, and the wizard can still use their action each round.
I hope you're trolling. Monks are one of the strongest classes overall, with their action ecconomy dominating the combat system.

[Foolwise]

I hope you're trolling. Monks are one of the strongest classes overall, with their action ecconomy dominating the combat system.

Tell me WotC reads your survey responses without telling me WotC reads your survey responses

[jaappleton]

Tell me WotC reads your survey responses without telling me WotC reads your survey responses

I may have spat out my drink

[Hytheter]

I hope you're trolling. Monks are one of the strongest classes overall, with their action ecconomy dominating the combat system.

You forgot to make the text blue. :smallamused:

[ProsecutorGodot]

You forgot to make the text blue. :smallamused:

It's really not a complete joke, Monk's are one of the few classes who come out of the box with a solid use of each one of their actions and have class abilities that consistently improve and add additional tools.

Stunning Strike is also an incredible shift in a battle, it has the potential to take several turns away from the enemy side and is eventually pretty spammable. Keep in mind, before comparing it directly with any spell effect, that Stunning Strike is purely a rider effect. Even if the stun fails you've still successfully attacked an enemy, which is the martial goal, a Wizard who casts Hold Person for similar results has expended significantly more resources and in most cases can't do anything else in the same turn.

Monk's are powerful.

[Dork_Forge]

It's really not a complete joke, Monk's are one of the few classes who come out of the box with a solid use of each one of their actions and have class abilities that consistently improve and add additional tools.

Stunning Strike is also an incredible shift in a battle, it has the potential to take several turns away from the enemy side and is eventually pretty spammable. Keep in mind, before comparing it directly with any spell effect, that Stunning Strike is purely a rider effect. Even if the stun fails you've still successfully attacked an enemy, which is the martial goal, a Wizard who casts Hold Person for similar results has expended significantly more resources and in most cases can't do anything else in the same turn.

Monk's are powerful.

And to ride on your coattails here:

The subclasses don't suck, even the 4E doesn't suck, it's just a bit expensive is all.

Seriously, the Monk subclass framework is probably some of the best designed in the game in terms of structure and they all pretty much do what they set out to.

People just think martial=damage

Whilst also complaining that martial don't get enough options and utility, meanwhile the Monk is stuffed with utility and options...

[strangebloke]

It's really not a complete joke, Monk's are one of the few classes who come out of the box with a solid use of each one of their actions and have class abilities that consistently improve and add additional tools.

Stunning Strike is also an incredible shift in a battle, it has the potential to take several turns away from the enemy side and is eventually pretty spammable. Keep in mind, before comparing it directly with any spell effect, that Stunning Strike is purely a rider effect. Even if the stun fails you've still successfully attacked an enemy, which is the martial goal, a Wizard who casts Hold Person for similar results has expended significantly more resources and in most cases can't do anything else in the same turn.

Monk's are powerful.

this is really becoming the flavor of the month isn't it?

But yeah, they're pretty good. Not amazing DPR-wise because generally they lack the support of feats like GWM and SS but aside from those combos their damage is good until level eleven and good past that if you're in one of the three subclasses that gets a solid level 11 feature (shadow and long death arguably get good features that don't add damage, and dragon monk would sorta be in that category too.)

[Arkhios]

Came to think of it... what if this is the response for the rather constant complaints of power creep going on, release after release? :smallcool:

What are they to do with us, when nothing is enough to satisfy us!? Either it's too good, or it's too bad. This actually reminds me of a general finnish mentality towards weather: In winter it's "too cold" and in summer "it's too hot". Make up your minds already! (ROFL)

[Xervous]

The main nugget of knowledge I gleaned from the Asian party meta discussion was that monks were a safe pick in a blind pick party, but were never statistically desirable for robust party builds of 4+ characters. Note this is under the assumption that the party is not being catered to and can expect the full spectrum of challenges. If the premise of the campaign narrows the field of expected challenges in one way or another it’s quite possible that monk falls out of favor at 3+ characters.

Being able to do a lot of different things halfway decent is great for a player who wants a finger in all the pies. However it is only statistically worthwhile if the monk’s broad versatility ends up covering enough gaps to offset the focused potential of another given class.

A monk might be the best choice if you’re confronted with 3 other characters locked in, but across a sampling of various 3x prelocked characters this will not be a common occurrence.

[jaappleton]

The main nugget of knowledge I gleaned from the Asian party meta discussion was that monks were a safe pick in a blind pick party, but were never statistically desirable for robust party builds of 4+ characters. Note this is under the assumption that the party is not being catered to and can expect the full spectrum of challenges. If the premise of the campaign narrows the field of expected challenges in one way or another it’s quite possible that monk falls out of favor at 3+ characters.

Being able to do a lot of different things halfway decent is great for a player who wants a finger in all the pies. However it is only statistically worthwhile if the monk’s broad versatility ends up covering enough gaps to offset the focused potential of another given class.

A monk might be the best choice if you’re confronted with 3 other characters locked in, but across a sampling of various 3x prelocked characters this will not be a common occurrence.

This is intriguing to me. I see subclasses for the Monk that make decent fill-ins for other roles. Don't have a healer? Mercy. Don't have a Rogue? Shadow. Long Death, if played correctly, can be a so-so tank by inducing Fear as combat begins to debilitate enemies Conquestadin style.

But in all instances it's sort of 'meh' at every of these fill-in roles, save Mercy. Because Mercy is.... I don't know HOW that got approved, I see that subclass as even more busted than Twilight Domain.

[Unoriginal]

The main nugget of knowledge I gleaned from the Asian party meta discussion was that monks were a safe pick in a blind pick party, but were never statistically desirable for robust party builds of 4+ characters. Note this is under the assumption that the party is not being catered to and can expect the full spectrum of challenges. If the premise of the campaign narrows the field of expected challenges in one way or another it’s quite possible that monk falls out of favor at 3+ characters.

Being able to do a lot of different things halfway decent is great for a player who wants a finger in all the pies. However it is only statistically worthwhile if the monk’s broad versatility ends up covering enough gaps to offset the focused potential of another given class.

This assumes that redundancy isn't useful by itself.

Monks are very useful in a 4+ party unless the DM designs things so that 1 PC only is needed to handle every single instances of the type of challenge they specialize in.



But in all instances it's sort of 'meh' at every of these fill-in roles,

Kind of the point being made, I think. As in "Monk can patch up many holes but not match a specialized character".



save Mercy. Because Mercy is.... I don't know HOW that got approved, I see that subclass as even more busted than Twilight Domain.

...how is the Mercy Monk anywhere close to the Twilight Cleric?

Mercy isn't busted as a healer or as a damage dealer, and they don't have the pile of "miscellaneous perks" Twilight Clerics get.

[Xervous]

WRT monks I think the biggest part of the puzzle is that few tables actually stress the party’s capabilities on a regular basis. The impact of party shortcomings are swept aside or disappear when accommodated by GMs, leaving players main perceived metrics of contribution as spotlight time and numbers. When the GM always allows the narrow classes to have their way the contingency measures of the monk never/rarely take to the spotlight. We can bicker about what GMs should do, but all the game tells GMs are structural details and low hurdle modules that most parties can bumble their way through.

[Frogreaver]

This is intriguing to me. I see subclasses for the Monk that make decent fill-ins for other roles. Don't have a healer? Mercy. Don't have a Rogue? Shadow. Long Death, if played correctly, can be a so-so tank by inducing Fear as combat begins to debilitate enemies Conquestadin style.

But in all instances it's sort of 'meh' at every of these fill-in roles, save Mercy. Because Mercy is.... I don't know HOW that got approved, I see that subclass as even more busted than Twilight Domain.

Being able to spam pass without trace and still deal respectable combat damage is fantastic. Shadow makes a better rogue/ranger than rogues/rangers do for steath (as they often allow the whole party to tag along).

[jaappleton]

This assumes that redundancy isn't useful by itself.

Monks are very useful in a 4+ party unless the DM designs things so that 1 PC only is needed to handle every single instances of the type of challenge they specialize in.



Kind of the point being made, I think. As in "Monk can patch up many holes but not match a specialized character".



...how is the Mercy Monk anywhere close to the Twilight Cleric?

Mercy isn't busted as a healer or as a damage dealer, and they don't have the pile of "miscellaneous perks" Twilight Clerics get.

Mercy is broken because past Tier 2, their main subclass features pretty much double in power AND the resource cost is entirely removed. There's nothing else that comes close to that for Monks.

Twilight gets bonuses but Darkvision is overrated, the initiative boost certainly helps, the flight is situational though the channel divinity assists. Yes it's good but you're utilizing your resources, which are limited.

At a certain point, Mercy's resources become almost unlimited.

The biggest boon of Twiligjt, to many, is the channel divinity healing. And I vehemently disagree. The DM can always make the enemies hit harder. Always. Though.... I just noticed this also really hurts my argument about Mercy, so.... >_>

[Dork_Forge]

Mercy is broken because past Tier 2, their main subclass features pretty much double in power AND the resource cost is entirely removed. There's nothing else that comes close to that for Monks.

Twilight gets bonuses but Darkvision is overrated, the initiative boost certainly helps, the flight is situational though the channel divinity assists. Yes, it's good but you're utilizing your resources, which are limited.

At a certain point, Mercy's resources become almost unlimited.

The biggest boon of Twilight, to many, is the channel divinity healing. And I vehemently disagree. The DM can always make the enemies hit harder. Always. Though.... I just noticed this also really hurts my argument about Mercy, so.... >_>

Only the Channel Divinity is limited, and that starts out as one combat per short rest and quickly goes to two combats per short rest. It'd be different if it was burn your CD to give everyone temp hp once, but they made it a duration ability and it can (and from experience) does swamp combat.

For Mercy I'm not seeing how their power double, are you just talking about being able to do the healing ability with both Flurry strikes?

The removed cost is nice, but it comes at a level where you don't really need to scrimp and save your Ki.

I really like Mercy, I'm looking forward to playing one, but I'm not seeing the broken at any point in its design, in comparison to other Monks or in general.

[stoutstien]

Only the Channel Divinity is limited, and that starts out as one combat per short rest and quickly goes to two combats per short rest. It'd be different if it was burn your CD to give everyone temp hp once, but they made it a duration ability and it can (and from experience) does swamp combat.

For Mercy I'm not seeing how their power double, are you just talking about being able to do the healing ability with both Flurry strikes?

The removed cost is nice, but it comes at a level where you don't really need to scrimp and save your Ki.

I really like Mercy, I'm looking forward to playing one, but I'm not seeing the broken at any point in its design, in comparison to other Monks or in general.

I think the biggest part is adding hand of harm to FoB with no additional cost. Add on the auto poison(for the few things not immune) and they are one of the best striker as far as monks go. Not overpowered per se but disappointing that that found a really elegant way of addressing the T3 slump the monk has and then promptly forgot about it the very next player option release.

[Segev]

The main nugget of knowledge I gleaned from the Asian party meta discussion was that monks were a safe pick in a blind pick party, but were never statistically desirable for robust party builds of 4+ characters. Note this is under the assumption that the party is not being catered to and can expect the full spectrum of challenges. If the premise of the campaign narrows the field of expected challenges in one way or another it’s quite possible that monk falls out of favor at 3+ characters.

Being able to do a lot of different things halfway decent is great for a player who wants a finger in all the pies. However it is only statistically worthwhile if the monk’s broad versatility ends up covering enough gaps to offset the focused potential of another given class.

A monk might be the best choice if you’re confronted with 3 other characters locked in, but across a sampling of various 3x prelocked characters this will not be a common occurrence.


This is intriguing to me. I see subclasses for the Monk that make decent fill-ins for other roles. Don't have a healer? Mercy. Don't have a Rogue? Shadow. Long Death, if played correctly, can be a so-so tank by inducing Fear as combat begins to debilitate enemies Conquestadin style.

But in all instances it's sort of 'meh' at every of these fill-in roles, save Mercy. Because Mercy is.... I don't know HOW that got approved, I see that subclass as even more busted than Twilight Domain.

I can only speak to my own experience, but the Rogue 1/Monk N I have been playing, taking Way of the Shadow, has done the rogue job as well as if not better than any rogue N+1 could have. Rogue primarily is giving expertise in stealth to contribute to "being a rogue," though it does give a broader array of skill proficiencies.

[Dork_Forge]

I think the biggest part is adding hand of harm to FoB with no additional cost. Add on the auto poison(for the few things not immune) and they are one of the best striker as far as monks go. Not overpowered per se but disappointing that that found a really elegant way of addressing the T3 slump the monk has and then promptly forgot about it the very next player option release.

There's a cost in reliability, unless your DM allows you to put the attacks in any order you want, you may very well hit with your action, choose to not spend Ki on HoH, and then miss your Flurry attacks. But in general yeah it's really good.

I thought the Dragon Monk was doing well though:

-An aura that has debuff and defense options

-Their breath goes from 2d6 (7) to 3d8 (13.5)

That's a pretty substantial increase in power and utility.

[stoutstien]

There's a cost in reliability, unless your DM allows you to put the attacks in any order you want, you may very well hit with your action, choose to not spend Ki on HoH, and then miss your Flurry attacks. But in general yeah it's really good.

I thought the Dragon Monk was doing well though:

-An aura that has debuff and defense options

-Their breath goes from 2d6 (7) to 3d8 (13.5)

That's a pretty substantial increase in power and utility.

Don't get me wrong I think dragon monk is serviceable and will probably settle right in the middle as far as monks go. It does feel slightly off which is compounded by the newish push for Prof per rest recharge mechanics.

Though maybe it could be a nice hot patch for the low ki for the first few levels. Free FoB = to Prof bonus a day wouldn't be a ton but would act like a safety net.

[jaappleton]

Don't get me wrong I think dragon monk is serviceable and will probably settle right in the middle as far as monks go. It does feel slightly off which is compounded by the newish push for Prof per rest recharge mechanics.

Though maybe it could be a nice hot patch for the low ki for the first few levels. Free FoB = to Prof bonus a day wouldn't be a ton but would act like a safety net.

Honestly, the best fix I've seen to deal with Monk ki cost at early levels is changing the number of Ki available.

Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier. At tier one that's an additional 3 ki per rest, on average. What's the big deal, besides making the Monk player MUCH happier?

I also believe Sorcs that don't have bonus spells granted by their origin should receive a number of additional known spells equal to their Charisma modifier.

[Dork_Forge]

Honestly, the best fix I've seen to deal with Monk ki cost at early levels is changing the number of Ki available.

Monk Level + Wisdom Modifier. At tier one that's an additional 3 ki per rest, on average. What's the big deal, besides making the Monk player MUCH happier?

I also believe Sorcs that don't have bonus spells granted by their origin should receive a number of additional known spells equal to their Charisma modifier.

My personal fix for Sorc in general is:

Addtional spell at 1st and 5th level

Sorcerous Recovery: Once per day you can get back half your Sorc level rounded up in SP at the end of a SR.

The spells for each origin is appropriate and should have happened, but too much work to go back and do for me.

[jaappleton]

My personal fix for Sorc in general is:

Addtional spell at 1st and 5th level

Sorcerous Recovery: Once per day you can get back half your Sorc level rounded up in SP at the end of a SR.

The spells for each origin is appropriate and should have happened, but too much work to go back and do for me.

I think I like your Sorc fix better than mine!

[animewatcha]

So now that monk is getting more sources of flight. How is falling damage handled if monk decides to dragoon on top of an enemy. Using reaction to negate his own fall damage of course.

[Dork_Forge]

I think I like your Sorc fix better than mine!

Thanks! I think the two spells gives them the flexibility they need to grab must haves (Shield and Mage Armor for example) whilst having options. They should be restricted in their list, they just needed a little bump and some more SP.


So now that monk is getting more sources of flight. How is falling damage handled if monk decides to dragoon on top of an enemy. Using reaction to negate his own fall damage of course.

Do you mean would the enemy take additional from the Monk falling on them?

[animewatcha]

Yeah. two possible scenarios.

1. 'triple move' skyward +end turn+ enact 'triple move' fall damage on enemy+monk +monk's reaction to reduce his own fall damage.
2. Attack/grab+ carry 'double move' skyward+drop enemy to have enemy take 'double move' fall damage+end your turn to have enact 'double move' fall damage+monk's reaction to reduce his own fall damage.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah. two possible scenarios.

1. 'triple move' skyward +end turn+ enact 'triple move' fall damage on enemy+monk +monk's reaction to reduce his own fall damage.
2. Attack/grab+ carry 'double move' skyward+drop enemy to have enemy take 'double move' fall damage+end your turn to have enact 'double move' fall damage+monk's reaction to reduce his own fall damage.

Personally I wouldn't give extra damage in the first, at most maybe a second damage die, because the Monk is deliberately reducing their fall impact to protect themselves.

On the second I'd just give them the standard 1d6 per 10ft for their own fall, for the same reasons as above.

[Witty Username]

What is the damage on the dragon breath?

Since, it is coming up again. The monk is, whether strong or weak, generally lesser than the Ranger in terms of effectiveness, since Ranger's tend to have more hp, more damage, higher AC, and better battlefield control options. I use this comparison because Ranger and Monk perform similar roles in and out of combat. Since Ranger is generally considered the weakest class, this either means the monk is worse then the general consensus, or Ranger is better than the general consensus. That is as far as my opinion goes on the subject.

[Dark.Revenant]

What is the damage on the dragon breath?

2d4 at levels 3–4. 2d6 at levels 5–10. 3d8 at levels 11–16. 3d10 at levels 17+.

[Witty Username]

2d4 at levels 3–4. 2d6 at levels 5–10. 3d8 at levels 11–16. 3d10 at levels 17+.
Yeah, 2 ki is a bit much, just compare that with an Attack with a stun which is 1 ki. Multiple enemies it could matter, but only goblins and such. I don't like it.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Yeah, 2 ki is a bit much, just compare that with an Attack with a stun which is 1 ki. Multiple enemies it could matter, but only goblins and such. I don't like it.

The comparison is only real fair if there's a question whether the successful Stunning Strike will be more meaningful than the AoE damage will, which you're only asking in cases where AoE is useful in the first place. Stunning Strike is, of course, going to be a generally more useful option for your Ki however this breath attack will be a situationally much better option.

Of course it's going to look bad as a single target option, most AoE do, you don't generally use them for that.

[Witty Username]

The comparison is only real fair if there's a question whether the successful Stunning Strike will be more meaningful than the AoE damage will, which you're only asking in cases where AoE is useful in the first place. Stunning Strike is, of course, going to be a generally more useful option for your Ki however this breath attack will be a situationally much better option.

Of course it's going to look bad as a single target option, most AoE do, you don't generally use them for that.

True, but the value of AoE is tied strongly to its clear potential.
Fireball is good not because it does more damage in the aggregate, but that it can wipe larger groups of weak enemies (also why AoEs have an iffy shelf life, but that is drifting into another point).
2d6 will have minor issues killing things like goblins and skeletons, zombies are beyond the pail. That is my take. It is outperformed by thinning the ranks with the monks attacks most of the time.
That is my take at least.

[ProsecutorGodot]

True, but the value of AoE is tied strongly to its clear potential.
Fireball is good not because it does more damage in the aggregate, but that it can wipe larger groups of weak enemies (also why AoEs have an iffy shelf life, but that is drifting into another point).
2d6 will have minor issues killing things like goblins and skeletons, zombies are beyond the pail. That is my take. It is outperformed by thinning the ranks with the monks attacks most of the time.
That is my take at least.

Fireball is good because it was designed to be good, there are plenty of lower damage AoE that are also good. Having a Monk that can take out a group of enemies is a powerful tool, not every party has a Fireball or even a Blaster Caster at all. I'm also struggling to see how you'd make the comparison between a Monk attacking individual enemies, even on a successful save the breath attack is dealing nearly as much damage as their standard attack would have as an AoE. You also get several free uses of the ability before it costs Ki.

It's, for the most part, just something more the Monk can do, and it's going to have its uses. I can't imagine making a standard attack being any better in situations where you'd want to be using this ability instead, that's the point.

My play experience tells me that even a small amount of extra AoE is exceptionally useful for a class that typically lacks it.

[Segev]

Clearly, the solution is to let the dragon monk spend 1 ki on each creature hit by the AoE to apply Stunning Strike to them. :smallcool:

[Dork_Forge]

True, but the value of AoE is tied strongly to its clear potential.
Fireball is good not because it does more damage in the aggregate, but that it can wipe larger groups of weak enemies (also why AoEs have an iffy shelf life, but that is drifting into another point).
2d6 will have minor issues killing things like goblins and skeletons, zombies are beyond the pail. That is my take. It is outperformed by thinning the ranks with the monks attacks most of the time.
That is my take at least.

Judging from what you're saying it looks like you're evaluating it just as an AOE vs other things like Fireball?

But that isn't fair to the ability, it takes a single attack so you should be comparing it to the value of a single Monk attack. As long as there's more than one enemy it pretty much always looks better than just hitting something unless you particularly wanted to stun that thing.

I'm also unsure why you (and others) are rating 2 Ki as too much? That's after the PB free uses, and by spending the Ki you also get to upgrade your bonus unarmed strike into a weapon attack if you want.

If it was a standalone action to use the breath, and it always cost 2 Ki then it would be lacklustre at best if not outright bad for most of the game. But it isn't that at all.

[Witty Username]

A single attack, say with a quarterstaff, 1d8+4 avg 9.5, 0 ki. Breath weapon 2d4, avg 5, 2 ki.
So, no problem just hit at least 2 targets and you good, and you have like three free uses.
But that assumes that 5 damage is a useful amount of damage.
Take goblins, paragons or resilience and survivability . They have 7 hp. So, you could damage say 6 goblins, possibly kill them if you roll well and they don't. Most likely you would need two puffs to kill them. It looks better once you hit 2d6, since you are more often than not, going to roll over there hp in damage, but saves and such. Note that you could be using attacks that cost no resources and have a better chance of outright killing a goblin. Also, this is as good as it gets.
Let's use wolves, hp 11. You will almost always need 2 puffs. Other people with AoE effects like burning hands and shatter can outright kill these targets.
But you get the rest of your attack action?
So does sun soul, 3d6 (10.5) damage, deals better with the wolves and can hit killing the goblins without a save.
And this is the favorable times to use the breath weapon. Slightly tougher enemies : Zombies, gnolls, ghouls, Maybe even CR 2 creatures. This damage will be too small to matter, or more accurately you are likely to burn all your free uses in one fight if you try to make this work an maybe some ki uses.

Overall, this is about as good as horde breaker on a Ranger, if horde breaker had PB uses per long rest as opposed to unlimited uses.

[Arkhios]

Did I understand correctly?

The Dragon Monk's breath weapon replaces one of their attacks during an attack action, and it deals damage multiple times (twice) their current martial arts die, in an area of cone or line, and it improves at 11th level (three times)?

Considering that a cone or line is likely to hit more than just one target, I'd say that's still pretty big improvement on the monk's DPR compared to others. I mean, instead of just one target, you can damage several targets at once. I think I saw somewhere that the cone shaped breath has a 30 ft. radius. That's 21 or 24 squares, depending on the orientation and direction.

I really don't get it why people think this is bad. Even if all those squares weren't occupied, that's definitely more than just one target being hit by the breath, and unless those targets have evasion, they'll all take at least some of the damage. Evasion isn't all that common, mind you.

If we're to follow the guidelines in DMG to determine a creature's CR by the damage they can deal, AoE's assume at least three targets were hit by it. So, even with 2d4 breath, hitting affecting just three targets, that's likely on average 15 (2d4 x 3) damage in total, with just one substituted attack. That's bananas.

[stoutstien]

AoEs rarely need to take out targets to be useful. Few NPCs are truly mindless or willing to continue fighting to certain death. Dropping any AoE that reduces multiple targets HP below their 'threshold' of sticking around has a good chance of practically ending the encounter.
You also have to factor in the flexibility of choosing how to can focus the rest of the turn's damage. Sure a fireball or whatnot can deal heavier AoE pressure but the monk can drop a breath and 2-3 attacks on a different target that isn't even in the same area or follow up to add increased damage on the original targets. Comparing it to the same cost of 2 unarmed strikes over as many rounds it's good value even before the free uses. SS is cheap on ki but usually takes a few investments to get any return where this breath is save pressure. Different tool for a different use.

[Unoriginal]

A single attack, say with a quarterstaff, 1d8+4 avg 9.5, 0 ki. Breath weapon 2d4, avg 5, 2 ki.
So, no problem just hit at least 2 targets and you good, and you have like three free uses.
But that assumes that 5 damage is a useful amount of damage.
Take goblins, paragons or resilience and survivability . They have 7 hp. So, you could damage say 6 goblins, possibly kill them if you roll well and they don't. Most likely you would need two puffs to kill them. It looks better once you hit 2d6, since you are more often than not, going to roll over there hp in damage, but saves and such. Note that you could be using attacks that cost no resources and have a better chance of outright killing a goblin. Also, this is as good as it gets.
Let's use wolves, hp 11. You will almost always need 2 puffs. Other people with AoE effects like burning hands and shatter can outright kill these targets.
But you get the rest of your attack action?
So does sun soul, 3d6 (10.5) damage, deals better with the wolves and can hit killing the goblins without a save.
And this is the favorable times to use the breath weapon. Slightly tougher enemies : Zombies, gnolls, ghouls, Maybe even CR 2 creatures. This damage will be too small to matter, or more accurately you are likely to burn all your free uses in one fight if you try to make this work an maybe some ki uses.

Overall, this is about as good as horde breaker on a Ranger, if horde breaker had PB uses per long rest as opposed to unlimited uses.

Do not forget that the Breath's ki cost is 0 for two of its uses at minimum, and that you can use it alonside your staff attack. Or at least your unarmed attack.

Which means that instead of choosing between "hurting several" and "killing one, possibly two", you're choosing between "killing one, possibly two" and "killing one and hurting several", considering average damage

[Hael]

If we're to follow the guidelines in DMG to determine a creature's CR by the damage they can deal, AoE's assume at least three targets were hit by it. So, even with 2d4 breath, hitting affecting just three targets, that's likely on average 15 (2d4 x 3) damage in total, with just one substituted attack. That's bananas.

I calculated it earlier. Its not great in T1, as the substituted attack is a weapon attack + dex at a higher attack roll. That leads to about ~8 damage added by the feature per day total, which is pretty small unless you manage to clip a lot more monsters (more than three).

It gets better around lvl 9 (i calculated it at about 32 something damage added per day earlier in the thread) and is pretty good until high CR dex save scaling kills the feature in tier4 (even with the higher damage die and extra proficiencies).

All in all, its about on par with other early lvl damage adds to the monk chassis (for instance the kensai d4 feature leads to the identical number 32 damage added over the entire day relative to a subclass less monk) but it doesn't keep up with the big damage boosters like the Mercy monks higher lvl features..

[Dork_Forge]

A single attack, say with a quarterstaff, 1d8+4 avg 9.5, 0 ki. Breath weapon 2d4, avg 5, 2 ki.
So, no problem just hit at least 2 targets and you good, and you have like three free uses.
But that assumes that 5 damage is a useful amount of damage.
Take goblins, paragons or resilience and survivability . They have 7 hp. So, you could damage say 6 goblins, possibly kill them if you roll well and they don't. Most likely you would need two puffs to kill them. It looks better once you hit 2d6, since you are more often than not, going to roll over there hp in damage, but saves and such. Note that you could be using attacks that cost no resources and have a better chance of outright killing a goblin. Also, this is as good as it gets.
Let's use wolves, hp 11. You will almost always need 2 puffs. Other people with AoE effects like burning hands and shatter can outright kill these targets.
But you get the rest of your attack action?
So does sun soul, 3d6 (10.5) damage, deals better with the wolves and can hit killing the goblins without a save.
And this is the favorable times to use the breath weapon. Slightly tougher enemies : Zombies, gnolls, ghouls, Maybe even CR 2 creatures. This damage will be too small to matter, or more accurately you are likely to burn all your free uses in one fight if you try to make this work an maybe some ki uses.

Overall, this is about as good as horde breaker on a Ranger, if horde breaker had PB uses per long rest as opposed to unlimited uses.

So many questions:

-Why must an AOE kill an enemy from full health? Especially when not only is this not the only damage you'll do this turn, but also a party game?

-Why do you keep circling around to the Ki cost as a downside when you get free uses before that?

-How is it worse than a melee attack, when even:

Tier 1: 1d8+3 (7.5) singletarget vs 2d4 (5) multi target? You're guaranteed to do some degree of damage, and if you're actually using the AOE as an AOE, not single target blasting, then the raw damage starts to look better from two-three targets.

Tier 2: 1d8+4 (8.5) singletarget vs 2d6 (7) multi target, same as above but the gap is actually smaller now and you get the option of making an attack too.

Tier 3: 1d8+5 (9.5) single target vs 3d8 (13.5) multi target, same as above, except a lot better as single target damage.


Tier 4: You guessed it, 1d8+5 vs 3d10 (16.5) with the option to make it 4d10 (22)

If you have multiple targets, or even just a target with a high AC, it's pretty much always better than a melee attack unless you want to attempt a stun. Which costs Ki... which is a criticism of yours towards the breath after its free uses are expended.

How is an elemental (flexible) damage AOE (with a flexible shape) that has scaling throughout character progression, in anyway shape or form like the incredible situational, attack based Horde Breaker?



I calculated it earlier. Its not great in T1, as the substituted attack is a weapon attack + dex at a higher attack roll. That leads to about ~8 damage added by the feature per day total, which is pretty small unless you manage to clip a lot more monsters (more than three).

It gets better around lvl 9 (i calculated it at about 32 something damage added per day earlier in the thread) and is pretty good until high CR dex save scaling kills the feature in tier4 (even with the higher damage die and extra proficiencies).

All in all, its about on par with other early lvl damage adds to the monk chassis (for instance the kensai d4 feature leads to the identical number 32 damage added over the entire day relative to a subclass less monk) but it doesn't keep up with the big damage boosters like the Mercy monks higher lvl features..

Even in Tier 1 you're looking at higher damage vs multiple targets and the guarantee of some degree of damage.

And what high CR dex save scaling?

[Foolwise]

I think I saw somewhere that the cone shaped breath has a 30 ft. radius. That's 21 or 24 squares, depending on the orientation and direction.

20ft cone, 30ft line. 10 (cone) or 6 (line) squares.

If the math in the posts above are using 30ft instead of 20ft, their numbers are too high.

[Dork_Forge]

20ft cone, 30ft line. 10 (cone) or 6 (line) squares.

If the math in the posts above are using 30ft instead of 20ft, their numbers are too high.

Unless the DM decides to snap things to a grid line, a 5ft wide line can straddle two squares to effectively target a total of 12 total.

And a cone is only 10 squares in 2-dimensional usage, the subclass can fly and at level 9 every monk can run on vertical surfaces, that's without going into races with flight or climb speeds.

[Arkhios]

20ft cone, 30ft line. 10 (cone) or 6 (line) squares.

If the math in the posts above are using 30ft instead of 20ft, their numbers are too high.

Depends which math you're referring to. The "math" of targets in DMG for AoE is an approximation for all kinds of areas of effect. The change in size or shape doesn't matter in that regard.

The number of squares per shape and orientation is off, of course. It's odd they decided to use 20 instead of 15 or 30, because a perpendicular 20 ft. cone is either wider than usual for cones (2 squares at the base), or asymmetrical, while diagonally 20 ft. cone is always symmetrical. Usually the cones are symmetrical regardless of orientation, because their radii are divisible by three (15, 30, 60, etc.)

Last I checked, 5th edition didn't continue using the same sizes and shapes for areas of effect as in 4th editon (where they were either different sizes of squares or lines), but rather, brought back the ones more familiar with 3rd edition, with diagonal and perpendicular variations (should you use a grid, that is).

[Foolwise]

Going off the diagrams in XGtE (pg. 87], it looks like WotC expects all perpendicular cones to be asymmetrical.

[Hael]

And what high CR dex save scaling?

There are various tables that compile average save values for compiled monster lists. Dex saves (and especially con saves) grow rather nonlinearly, with small slopes at first, and then start rapidly increasing with Cr10+ So at first your proficiency grows faster than the saves grow and thus your dpr grows, but then the reverse happens.

As mentioned by another poster, there are rather large standard deviations here as well and the effect of resistance starts to be a problem as well in tier3-4 (and the mechanical effectiveness will depend a lot on whether or not the player metagames or how much info the DM gives about the monsters)

[Witty Username]

How is an elemental (flexible) damage AOE (with a flexible shape) that has scaling throughout character progression, in anyway shape or form like the incredible situational, attack based Horde Breaker?

Because that 'incredible situational' is multiple enemies in close proximity, Like a small AoE. admittedly 5ft radius is less than 20ft cone, but has more flexible placement do to range and no friendly fire chance.

More importantly, one is FREE. no long rest uses, no ki use. Is dragon breath better than horde breaker by enough and useful in enough situations to justify twice per long rest and then half your ki pool for more uses?
Yes this a Tier 1 argument, for a level 3? ability, if it doesn't become effective until tier 3 you still need to justify why you are taking the class for 10 levels.

As for tier 4, 3d10 (16.5) damage. so avoiding things like that wizards can choose to cast shatter at will (3d8, 13.5) because it doesn't take your full action, how often does an extra 16 damage in a fight with Multiple monsters, with hundreds of HP each, actually matter? I assume you are using this to replace an attack every time you are able, so it will add up, but wait you get six, 1-2 fights, your out, back to spending ki, and not stunning, and using more to maintain your self buffs.

This compares nicely to bladesinger actually, They can replace an attack with Acid Splash for free (4d6 , avg 14 ) damage, GFB (3d8? + int, avg 18.5) for free. And that isn't really an ability that screams op, needs nerf.

what is so bad about dragon breath costing 1 ki? Or assuming it is a ribbon an not paying it much mind, depending on your camp?

[Arkhios]

Going off the diagrams in XGtE (pg. 87], it looks like WotC expects all perpendicular cones to be asymmetrical.

I stand corrected. They did change the shapes (a little) from 3rd edition. At least they didn't keep the 4th edition style. Nonetheless, the only math I had wrong was the number of squares per area shape.
And, as I said, it doesn't matter in regards to the approximation of affected targets.

[Dork_Forge]

There are various tables that compile average save values for compiled monster lists. Dex saves (and especially con saves) grow rather nonlinearly, with small slopes at first, and then start rapidly increasing with Cr10+ So at first your proficiency grows faster than the saves grow and thus your dpr grows, but then the reverse happens.

What is this meant to show? The whole point of bounded accuracy is that you don't stop facing lower CR monsters, you can face more of them, or some sprinkled to support a higher CR creature.

Tracking saves vs CR like that for an AOE would make more sense if you were actually expecting to fight multiple CR appropriate monsters, but you're not really.

What tables are you referring to anyway? I found one in the DMG that shows monster prof bonus, but that was the closest thing I saw and doesn't really seem relevant.

The actual save bonus of the monster will depend entirely on what that monster is, a CR 17 red dragon has a +6 prof bonus... but a 0 Dex so their save is still only a +6.


As mentioned by another poster, there are rather large standard deviations here as well and the effect of resistance starts to be a problem as well in tier3-4 (and the mechanical effectiveness will depend a lot on whether or not the player metagames or how much info the DM gives about the monsters)

Resistance with an ability that covers this many damage types amounts to an oopsie if you actually choose the wrong damage type and metagaming doesn't even need to happen. If you're dealing with fiends you'll quickly learn through experience if not research that the entire creature type has similar resistances.


Because that 'incredible situational' is multiple enemies in close proximity, Like a small AoE. admittedly 5ft radius is less than 20ft cone, but has more flexible placement do to range and no friendly fire chance.

Horde Breaker allows you to hit one additional enemy within range. One. It's a situational additional attack that can still miss and does a single hit's worth of damage.

Whirlwind Attack is more appropriate to compare since it has no limit, but it still has 5ft range restriction and is an 11th level feature.

5ft centered from self is not anywhere near as user-friendly as cone or line.


More importantly, one is FREE. no long rest uses, no ki use. Is dragon breath better than horde breaker by enough and useful in enough situations to justify twice per long rest and then half your ki pool for more uses?
Yes this a Tier 1 argument, for a level 3? ability, if it doesn't become effective until tier 3 you still need to justify why you are taking the class for 10 levels.


Horde Breaker would be all you got from 3rd level:

In single target combats your subclass is entirely useless.

In combats where enemies stand more than 10ft apart, or another party member is in the way of that gap? Useless.

The breath is one of 4 things you get at 3rd:

-Ribbon (draconic)

-Social ability (reroll intimidation/persuasion)

-Combat ability (at-will changing of your unarmed strike damage type)

- the breath

And whereas horde breaker can only be used if you have enemies laid out correctly, the breath can be used as you see fit, either on multiple targets, single target or ranged attack substitute. It's also flexible to the shape and damage type, which is power unto itself, and is guaranteed damage unlike an attack roll.

Comparing horde breather to Breath of the Dragon has no footing whatsoever outside of 'abilities that can theoretically damage more than one creature,' it's worse in every way and has no abilities to pick up the slack otherwise.

And you don't have to burn any Ki on it, it's an option sure, but plenty of folks will be content to use the free uses and only burn Ki where it seems appropriate to do so.



As for tier 4, 3d10 (16.5) damage. so avoiding things like that wizards can choose to cast shatter at will (3d8, 13.5) because it doesn't take your full action, how often does an extra 16 damage in a fight with Multiple monsters, with hundreds of HP each, actually matter? I assume you are using this to replace an attack every time you are able, so it will add up, but wait you get six, 1-2 fights, your out, back to spending ki, and not stunning, and using more to maintain your self buffs.

'Well, that isn't enough damage to really matter' doesn't really convince me of anything. Damage is damage, and the goal of said damage doesn't have to be to just hurt the enemies, you could be shutting down a regen, triggering an allies strategy etc. But the fact remains that it's unquestionably better than just smacking someone, especially if in a target-rich environment.

And no, I wouldn't just assume someone is going to spam this ability as much as they can, besides being a friendly fire nightmare that just seems incredibly wasteful, and a bit of a strawman to be honest.


This compares nicely to bladesinger actually, They can replace an attack with Acid Splash for free (4d6 , avg 14 ) damage, GFB (3d8? + int, avg 18.5) for free. And that isn't really an ability that screams op, needs nerf.

5ft AOE's are not good unless your squishy (and yes they likely still are squishy) Wizard has gotten themselves surrounded. Even then, the targeting is bad, the damage type is limited and the damage is worse.

Your numbers on GFB are just wrong altogether: weapon+Dex+Int+3d8 and if there's a secondary target autohit 3d8+Int. Let's be conservative and this Bladesinger maxed Int but left Dex at +4 and is using a Rapier:

Primary: 4d8+9 avg 18+9 for 27 damage

Secondary: 3d8+5 avg 13.5+5 for 18.5 damage

or a Firebolt for 4d10, average 18 damage.

Yes that is OP, there's no reason whatsoever they should have spontaneously changed Extra Attack like that.

And here's another note: It doesn't compare nicely overall at all, that's all Bladesingers get at 6th level from their subclass, this ability is part of a suite of stuff the dragon monk gets at 3rd.


what is so bad about dragon breath costing 1 ki? Or assuming it is a ribbon an not paying it much mind, depending on your camp?


In no way, shape, or form is this a ribbon. Giving them Draconic is a ribbon, an EK's weapon summoning is a ribbon. Ribbons don't affect combat under normal conditions.

Why shouldn't it cost 1 Ki? Because I don't see it as bad like some folks here do, it seems perfectly reasonable damage for what it is. I also don't think this Monk is meant to be the omg blaster! Monk, the breath is one thing they get, not their whole deal. If you want to play a blaster Monk then play a Sun Soul, who are actually built around blasting.

I'm really curious if the people in the 'breath is bad' camp could answer some questions:

1) What does the make up of your average encounters actually look like?

2) Why should it be cheaper? It's not the sole thing the subclass does and the free uses scale. Preferably the answer to this isn't 'why not let it? It's low damage!'

[strangebloke]

Because that 'incredible situational' is multiple enemies in close proximity, Like a small AoE. admittedly 5ft radius is less than 20ft cone, but has more flexible placement do to range and no friendly fire chance.

More importantly, one is FREE. no long rest uses, no ki use. Is dragon breath better than horde breaker by enough and useful in enough situations to justify twice per long rest and then half your ki pool for more uses?
Yes this a Tier 1 argument, for a level 3? ability, if it doesn't become effective until tier 3 you still need to justify why you are taking the class for 10 levels.

As for tier 4, 3d10 (16.5) damage. so avoiding things like that wizards can choose to cast shatter at will (3d8, 13.5) because it doesn't take your full action, how often does an extra 16 damage in a fight with Multiple monsters, with hundreds of HP each, actually matter? I assume you are using this to replace an attack every time you are able, so it will add up, but wait you get six, 1-2 fights, your out, back to spending ki, and not stunning, and using more to maintain your self buffs.

This compares nicely to bladesinger actually, They can replace an attack with Acid Splash for free (4d6 , avg 14 ) damage, GFB (3d8? + int, avg 18.5) for free. And that isn't really an ability that screams op, needs nerf.

what is so bad about dragon breath costing 1 ki? Or assuming it is a ribbon an not paying it much mind, depending on your camp?

I don't think anyone is saying that it should be 2 ki, I think we all agree that its an unnecessary nerf.

However, this comparison is inherently flawed because you're comparing AOE abilities from classes with many AOE options to an AOE ability on a class that baseline has no AOE at all. Horde Breaker is really good, but Rangers also have spike growth and hail of thorns and entangle and lightning arrow. Bladesinger getting to cast GFB as half of an attack action is ridiculously strong (Bladesinger is a stupid subclass) but they can also just cast fireball.

Comparatively, monks have no options like this, and they're forced into an inefficient position when faced with a horde of enemies. If you put them against a massive horde of orcs or grue they're in a bad position because there's going to be a lot of inefficiency in their attacks. You get 3-4 attacks that deal 1d8+4 on average which means that it might take 2-3 attacks to kill an orc, and there's a good chance of a lot of overkill damage. They're better in such a situation than a rogue for example (because their damage is split along 3-4 attacks) but its still a huge upside.

The question is, how much damage can you get from the 3 free uses at level five and when is it worth spending the ki (compared to for example flurry) Lets assume an orc as an enemy here. A level five monk expects (1d10+4)*0.75=7.1 against your average orc, but a WotAD monk can replace this with a blast that will on average deal 0.6*7+0.4*3.5=5.6 damage per enemy. So against two enemies it adds 4.1, and against 3 it adds 9.7. Against four it adds a whopping 15.3 Comparing this to the average damage added by flurry (1d6+4)*0.75=5.6 and the tradeoffs become pretty clear. It's worth 2 ki if you can hit 3 or more enemies. If you can use this ability on 3 or more enemies consistently (not hard, given that you can shape the AOE) the free uses at level five give you something like 45.9 free damage, and every time you use the ability for ki you gain 4.1 damage over against using flurry every turn.

TL;DR, Monks are somewhat weak overall, not really weak compared to martials, more just weak compared to casters, so I think they could afford to be pushed with a strong blasting-focused subclass. With that in mind I think the UA WotAD monk was about where I'd like monk subclasses to be but I also think that the official WotAD monk is still better than most monk subclasses.

Frankly this whole Breath Attack discussion is a sideshow to how the higher level features were gutted.

[Dork_Forge]

Frankly this whole Breath Attack discussion is a sideshow to how the higher level features were gutted.

Besides the Blinsight what got nerfed?

[strangebloke]

Besides the Blinsight what got nerfed?
I'll just quote foolwise here.


6th- Unfurled Wings
Limited to free uses only. Can no longer spend 1 ki to use again after PB free uses. (Nerf)

And here's where it gets bad.
11th- Aspect of the Wyrm
Aura range reduced from 30ft to 10ft, but unlike paladins, it never increases back to 30ft later. (Huge Nerf)
Aura no longer allows PC and allies within aura to deal retributive damage with their reaction. This was the coolest ability of the subclass imo, an AoE Absorb Elements for the party... (trashed)
PC has to choose between giving the party (again, within 10ft) resistance to one dragon type damage OR cause ONE enemy to frightened within the 10ft... (bleh)
I forget if the free use remained, but the ki cost for this weakened ability was lowered from 4 ki to 3... (thanks, I guess)


They can't use the flight at all after they run out of free uses, the aura range was cut from 30 to 10, and they can't use the 11th level feature to deal vengeance damage damage.

All round pretty crappy.

[Witty Username]

5ft centered from self is not anywhere near as user-friendly as cone or line.

5ft from target and within range of your weapon, not self. Important if you happen to use a bow.

[Dork_Forge]

5ft from target and within range of your weapon, not self. Important if you happen to use a bow.

That is significantly worse in some regards, since they have to be shoulder to shoulder.

Though you quoted me talking about 5ft self AOEs, so I'll clarify that was actually meant to be about AOE cantrips, not my horde breaker commentary. I think at the time I was thinking of the sword burst style, but the overall message is still the same.

The abilities you're pointing out fall apart largely from just a single square of distance, that is a huge flaw if you're comparing them to other AOEs.

[Hael]

Frankly this whole Breath Attack discussion is a sideshow to how the higher level features were gutted.

The breath attack is an ok feature. But the power lvl was massively oversold and exaggerated in UA by playtesters from what I can read, and I think was likely the reason for the gutting of the high lvl features. Which is ashame, b/c the high lvl features were actually quite well designed before, and are now awkward.

The aura range in particular is hard to understand from a design perspective. Why would the developers want to tie down their hyper mobile, flying monk and incentivize them to assume fireball formation with their allies? It just seems rather arbitrary. I don't understand what they are going for.

[Foolwise]

I'll just quote foolwise here.


They can't use the flight at all after they run out of free uses, the aura range was cut from 30 to 10, and they can't use the 11th level feature to deal vengeance damage damage.

All round pretty crappy.

You left out the 17th level nerfs. Blindsight was mentioned. But the fury damage added on to the 11th feature was nerfed from 4d10 auto hit to 3d10 save or suck. The 17th breath improvement is a wash. Went from getting an persistent MA die damage rider for free to req an extra ki to get that 4th MA die but the range tripled (60 cone, 90 line).

It was a solid capstone in the UA. Now a 1st level dragonborn fighter matches the 10ft blindsight with a breath weapon that has a 5ft smaller range but deals more damage than the monk (comparing free use, however the 17th level monk will absolutely spend 1 ki to match the dragonborn damage and triple the range). And if I really want to cherry pick, a gem dragonborn paladin of the ancients just wrecks this subclass. In addition to getting the above at 2, it gets 1 min flight at 5 (monk tops out at 6 rounds at 17) plus a 10ft aura granting resistance to all spells at 7 that improves to 30ft at 18 (monk gets 10ft resistance to one energy type at 11 with a save or suck damage rider at 17).

[Thunderous Mojo]

I don't think anyone is saying that it should be 2 ki, I think we all agree that its an unnecessary nerf.

Hmm...actually this thread has swayed my opinion to thinking it is a reasonable decision to increase the Ki cost to 2.

2 Ki points is the cost for Four Elements Monk to 'cast' a 1st level spell.
Burning Hands is doing 11 points of damage on average to creatures that fail their saving throws in a 15' cube.

While the Dragonmonk is doing less damage to each individual creature, by having a larger Cone effect and the option to use a Line area of effect, the Dragonmonk should be consistently able to affect more Targets.

I've seen people use Burning Hands or Dragon's Breath on a single target out of desperation.

The ability to use a Cone or Line, in addition to free uses is not bad at all. (I do wish the Dragonmonk could 'Upcast' the breath, though).

A 1 Ki point cost is probably undervaluing the option. The true cost is probably a 1.5 Ki cost...which the free uses emulate.

(Alas LIBOR is gone so Monk Ki Point transactions are harder to price on the international market🃏)

In games with options from TCoE, spending Ki points on the Dragonmonk's breath will yield the option to take a Bonus Action Weapon Attack.

[Witty Username]

Alright, I'll drop the comparisons, clearly the illustrations are not working.

For AoE damage to be effective, it needs to be enough damage to reduce the time it takes to kill the monsters hit with it.

For enemies with hp lower than what can be killed with a single target attack1, this is straight forward. can the AoE kill the target, if no, then you are choosing to leave an enemy alive that would otherwise be dead.
For enemies that cannot be killed in a single target attack, the same logic will eventually apply, so is the AoE effective enough to reduce the number of rounds, turns or actions required to kill the target.
Low damage AoEs are often not effective for this reason, the damage is not potent enough to cause this reduction in time.

Dragon breath costs a resource that is non-trivial, costs an attack to deal less damage to a single target than that attack (until Tier 3), and importantly deals very low damage. It will deal more damage than an attack overall but often not in a way that will actually advance the combat2

1. note the single target attack does not necessarily be yours, if your in a party and the fighter can kill enemies in a single hit, if your AoE can't kill them the fighter is not being helped in any way. this means even if your AoE is more damage than your single target attacks that doesn't mean it is an effective use of your time. Dodging, using a debuff effect, or even something like hiding could be more effective depending on your party and your role within it.
2. A quick edge case here, stacking AOE effects. Because of variance due to damage rolls or saving throws an effective AoE can fail to have its intended effect but result in enemies with very low health
Take the goblin example, a wizard is very likely to kill goblins out right with a burning hands or thunderwave. but saves for half damage and low rolls do happen. take say a goblin rolls a successful save for half against 12 damage, it would be at 1 hp. for large groups this may end up with 2 -3 lucky survivors that this could quickly clean up. If this is compelling to you, then maybe this is an option to have in a Party that is already AoE heavy.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Alright, I'll drop the comparisons, clearly the illustrations are not working.

For AoE damage to be effective, it needs to be enough damage to reduce the time it takes to kill the monsters hit with it.

For enemies with hp lower than what can be killed with a single target attack1, this is straight forward. can the AoE kill the target, if no, then you are choosing to leave an enemy alive that would otherwise be dead.

I don't believe the only way to frame the game is through the prism of an Attack either kills outright, or lightly damages.

There will be plenty of times when a turn spent focusing all of a monks's or fighter's attacks on a single target, will still not be enough to slay the target.

Your examples don't seem to be problematic, but the way you are approaching the subclass, your expectations of performance, do seem to be raising issues with people.

[Segev]

Witty_Username's point is a good one. For an AoE to be useful, it either needs to, through repeated application, bring down more targets in significantly less time than single target attacks would, or it needs to bring multiple targets into one hit kill range for single target attacks. The flip of that second coin allows for instead finishing off several softened targets, making spreading single target hits around more strategically viable.

[stoutstien]

Witty_Username's point is a good one. For an AoE to be useful, it either needs to, through repeated application, bring down more targets in significantly less time than single target attacks would, or it needs to bring multiple targets into one hit kill range for single target attacks. The flip of that second coin allows for instead finishing off several softened targets, making spreading single target hits around more strategically viable.

You also have the pressure angle. You don't need to take out any of the targets to change their priorities or tactics. monks are good at single target pressure already. this just adds in a nice tool to impact hordes and mooks a little better.

[gaxmarland]

The damage is sooo sad. 2d4 save for half is a tickle. I would rather hit someone with my weapon for 1d10 plus 3 or 4 (depending on Dex). And with my weapon I can stunning strike. And I would rather put all my damage on one enemy anyway.

[Kane0]

- Turn all unarmed attacks into acid, cold, fire, lightning or poison damage
This ensures your attacks will always be dealing full damage before you get basically the same benefit at level 6, with the added benefit of taking advantage of Vulnerability should it come up. Vulnerability is mostly pretty rare but depends on DM, i'd call this just above a ribbon.

- Draconic as a language
Ribbon.

- Reaction to reroll Intimidate or Persuade check, once per LR (expended once it turns a fail into a success)
Neat ability, basically ensures you pass a Cha check sooner or later. The use limitation keeps it in check, i'd also put this as just above a ribbon.

- When you attack you can swap out one attack with a 20' cone or 30' line that deals 2dM damage of your choice (as above) with a Dex save for half. It scales to 3dM at 11th level, and is usable Prof times per LR for free before costing 2 Ki.
This might be contentious, but I think this is OK. Not great, but average. Mediocre.
Barring the Post-Tasha's free uses this costs the same as 4E's Burning Hands and Sun Soul's BA version at 6th level, but sacrifices one die of damage to replace an attack instead of an action or bonus action. That's a fair trade IMO, but I think it should have been scalable with additional Ki spent like the former two which is there it trips up. At least it scales on it's own at level 11 but that's pretty lacklustre even with the Monk Die scaling.

I think this all combines for a solid 3rd level package. Feels pretty good really.

6th level - Prof times per LR, when you use SotW you gain a fly speed until the end of your turn.
Simple and straightforward, but it's barely better than a ribbon *for the monk specifically*. It already costs Ki to use in the first place due to triggering off SotW (which doubles your jump already), you get free wall & water running at level 9, flying races are a thing, and the inability to even spend Ki to do it more times is just a slap in the face.

11th level - As a bonus action (one free use per LR then costs 3 Ki), start a 10' aura for 1 minute that either grants resistance to 1 damage type of your choice (see above) or forces enemies to Wis save or be frightened (details unknown).
So when you use it you pick either:
- A 10' radius version of Protection from Energy that doesn't need concentration, but encourages your allies to stand in fireball formation around you, the *highly mobile* class, for the cost of a 2nd level spell in Ki.
OR
- A different version of the Long Death's 6th level feature, not using your action but also at reduced range and number of targets. Duration/end condition unknown.

It's nice to be able to pick I guess, but neither are really that amazing. It's another OK feature, not great and not terrible. The retributive damage should have stayed, and the aura range maybe 15' or 20' if it was really that problematic (which I doubt).

17th level -
Permanent 10' blindsight
Can spend 1 Ki to enhance breath with an extra die of damage and triple the range
When you activate your level 11 feature creatures of your choice take 3dM damage with a Dex for half.

The blindsight is 1 level before Ranger's Feral Senses, 3 levels after the Rogue's 10' Blindsense and 15-16 levels after the Blind Fighting Style. That's not a good start.
See what I said about the level 3 breath, this should have been built in then and the range increased passively at levels 11 and 17.
Okay this is free damage (sort of), but the damage again isn't great and the save drops that lower. I think that between the previous retributive damage being removed and this applying a save, people really objected to the 'free' damage in the feedback (nevermind things like damage resistance).

Again not great, not terrible. Thoroughly mediocre. Passably average. Painfully in-line. That about sums up the subclass as a whole really, it's a passive-aggressive fine I guess. It doesn't make you say "Wow that's awesome!" Nor does it make you say "Wow that's trash!" If you weren't sold on the title alone, there's nothing really enticing upon cracking it open to make you reconsider.

But at least it isn't broken.

[Foolwise]

- When you activate your level 11 feature creatures of your choice take 3dM damage with a Dex for half.

No half damage. If the enemies succeed, they take none.

[stoutstien]

- Turn all unarmed attacks into acid, cold, fire, lightning or poison damage
This ensures your attacks will always be dealing full damage before you get basically the same benefit at level 6, with the added benefit of taking advantage of Vulnerability should it come up. Vulnerability is mostly pretty rare but depends on DM, i'd call this just above a ribbon.

- Draconic as a language
Ribbon.

- Reaction to reroll Intimidate or Persuade check, once per LR (expended once it turns a fail into a success)
Neat ability, basically ensures you pass a Cha check sooner or later. The use limitation keeps it in check, i'd also put this as just above a ribbon.

- When you attack you can swap out one attack with a 20' cone or 30' line that deals 2dM damage of your choice (as above) with a Dex save for half. It scales to 3dM at 11th level, and is usable Prof times per LR for free before costing 2 Ki.
This might be contentious, but I think this is OK. Not great, but average. Mediocre.
Barring the Post-Tasha's free uses this costs the same as 4E's Burning Hands and Sun Soul's BA version at 6th level, but sacrifices one die of damage to replace an attack instead of an action or bonus action. That's a fair trade IMO, but I think it should have been scalable with additional Ki spent like the former two which is there it trips up. At least it scales on it's own at level 11 but that's pretty lacklustre even with the Monk Die scaling.

I think this all combines for a solid 3rd level package. Feels pretty good really.

6th level - Prof times per LR, when you use SotW you gain a fly speed until the end of your turn.
Simple and straightforward, but it's barely better than a ribbon *for the monk specifically*. It already costs Ki to use in the first place due to triggering off SotW (which doubles your jump already), you get free wall & water running at level 9, flying races are a thing, and the inability to even spend Ki to do it more times is just a slap in the face.

11th level - As a bonus action (one free use per LR then costs 3 Ki), start a 10' aura for 1 minute that either grants resistance to 1 damage type of your choice (see above) or forces enemies to Wis save or be frightened (details unknown).
So when you use it you pick either:
- A 10' radius version of Protection from Energy that doesn't need concentration, but encourages your allies to stand in fireball formation around you, the *highly mobile* class, for the cost of a 2nd level spell in Ki.
OR
- A different version of the Long Death's 6th level feature, not using your action but also at reduced range and number of targets. Duration/end condition unknown.

It's nice to be able to pick I guess, but neither are really that amazing. It's another OK feature, not great and not terrible. The retributive damage should have stayed, and the aura range maybe 15' or 20' if it was really that problematic (which I doubt).

17th level -
Permanent 10' blindsight
Can spend 1 Ki to enhance breath with an extra die of damage and triple the range
When you activate your level 11 feature creatures of your choice take 3dM damage with a Dex for half.

The blindsight is 1 level before Ranger's Feral Senses, 3 levels after the Rogue's 10' Blindsense and 15-16 levels after the Blind Fighting Style. That's not a good start.
See what I said about the level 3 breath, this should have been built in then and the range increased passively at levels 11 and 17.
Okay this is free damage (sort of), but the damage again isn't great and the save drops that lower. I think that between the previous retributive damage being removed and this applying a save, people really objected to the 'free' damage in the feedback (nevermind things like damage resistance).

Again not great, not terrible. Thoroughly mediocre. Passably average. Painfully in-line. That about sums up the subclass as a whole really, it's a passive-aggressive fine I guess. It doesn't make you say "Wow that's awesome!" Nor does it make you say "Wow that's trash!" If you weren't sold on the title alone, there's nothing really enticing upon cracking it open to make you reconsider.

But at least it isn't broken.

Pretty much. It's right dab in the middle of the pack which is where new stuff should aim instead of what Tasha did with clerics.
I'll probably readjust it more for feel and flavor than power.

[Amechra]

No half damage. If the enemies succeed, they take none.

Wait, they changed that too? Well then.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Pretty much. It's right dab in the middle of the pack which is where new stuff should aim instead of what Tasha did with clerics.
I'll probably readjust it more for feel and flavor than power.

I was going to strongly disagree...then I realized that I'd read this wrong. I strongly agree that Tasha's clerics are beyond what I want to see on new stuff. I'm neutral about this particular class/subclass (haven't put enough energy into looking at it to have an opinion), but I'd sure hope it's not competitive with the Twilight cleric. Because that's an awful mess (both thematically and mechanically).

[strangebloke]

Pretty much. It's right dab in the middle of the pack which is where new stuff should aim instead of what Tasha did with clerics.
I'll probably readjust it more for feel and flavor than power.

I think monks could be pushed a bit which is why I disagree here.

[stoutstien]

I was going to strongly disagree...then I realized that I'd read this wrong. I strongly agree that Tasha's clerics are beyond what I want to see on new stuff. I'm neutral about this particular class/subclass (haven't put enough energy into looking at it to have an opinion), but I'd sure hope it's not competitive with the Twilight cleric. Because that's an awful mess (both thematically and mechanically).

Aye. I don't think they are nearly as broken as some think they are but they are clearly just unnecessary power creep. Shift the THB battery and a few of the other features to a class like barbarian and maybe it could be an interesting concept but on the cleric. Bleh.

I have an all monk party forming so I'm on a short timeframe to see if this needs any immediate changes before it kicks off.

[Witty Username]

No one wants anything to be competitive with twilight cleric. If I wake up tomorrow too Twilight cleric not existing and people telling me I dreamt it, I would find it less absurd than the current reality.

[Ralanr]

No one wants anything to be competitive with twilight cleric. If I wake up tomorrow too Twilight cleric not existing and people telling me I dreamt it, I would find it less absurd than the current reality.

I'd also like that reality.

I'd also like to be in the room when they made those decisions to figure out why.

[Foolwise]

I, I wanna be in the room where it happens
The room where it happens
I wanna be in the room where it happens
The room where it happens

[Segev]

The damage is sooo sad. 2d4 save for half is a tickle. I would rather hit someone with my weapon for 1d10 plus 3 or 4 (depending on Dex). And with my weapon I can stunning strike. And I would rather put all my damage on one enemy anyway.

By the time you're using stunning strike, it's 2d6, not 2d4. Not saying that's too much better, but at least it's competitive with 1d10. Would be interesting if creatures damaged by your breath weapon were valid subjects for stunning strike, though.

If "Thoroughly mediocre" means "as boring as sun soul and as hard to get much use from as 4 Elements," then I think it is a bad place to aim. No class should be as at war with itself as Dragon Monk winds up being.

[Dork_Forge]

If "Thoroughly mediocre" means "as boring as sun soul and as hard to get much use from as 4 Elements," then I think it is a bad place to aim. No class should be as at war with itself as Dragon Monk winds up being.

How are they at war with themselves at all?

[Segev]

How are they at war with themselves at all?

Aside from the usual ki-choked nature of a monk, that aura is telling them to stand still while everything else tells them to move in and out. The flight overwrites the jumping ability that you have to trigger to use it, making it far less of a buff than it sounds like, and also undermines the level 9 feature (though you still can get some use out of it if you're not using step of the wind). It's a lot of small things that either work against each other, or make the benefits they grant smaller relative increases than they sound like, and so few of them work well together that even where they don't self-defeat, you're hard-pressed to use the features as anything but separate choices.

[strangebloke]

Aside from the usual ki-choked nature of a monk, that aura is telling them to stand still while everything else tells them to move in and out. The flight overwrites the jumping ability that you have to trigger to use it, making it far less of a buff than it sounds like, and also undermines the level 9 feature (though you still can get some use out of it if you're not using step of the wind). It's a lot of small things that either work against each other, or make the benefits they grant smaller relative increases than they sound like, and so few of them work well together that even where they don't self-defeat, you're hard-pressed to use the features as anything but separate choices.

Precisely. You get 2-4 free uses of dragon breath but the extra uses are extremely expensive. You get to fly but only during turns where you'd have double jump height and wall and water running and its a limited use ability. You get a reaction that allows you to resist elemental AOE if the whole party is standing in a position that makes them very vulnerable to elemental AOE and you (the highly mobile melee striker) is standing with them rather than running ahead to fight.

[Segev]

Thinking on the aura, if you leave it at 10 feet, you could make it do all of the following:

Choose an energy type your unarmed strikes can do. Creatures other than you in your aura must make a Wisdom save when they first enter your aura on a turn or become Frightened of you and become vulnerable to the energy type chosen. At the end of each of their turns, they may repeat this save to end the effect. If they take damage of the energy type to which they are vulnerable, they automatically fail that save the next time they may make it. Creatures that succeed on this save are immune to your aura unless you spend 1 ki when exposing them to it again.

(Or, if the aura already costs ki - I forget - turning the aura off and back on again removes the immunity gained by making the save.)

This is not a party-friendly effect - frightening your allies and rendering them vulnerable to energy types is something they can work around, but still is bad - but you're the highly-mobile one and the narrower radius of only 10 feet means you can be the dragon-warrior out skirmishing in the enemies' back ranks.


For the dragon flight ability, remove the uses/day, and make it work with the features that already enhance impossible movements instead of overwriting them: "When you use Step of the Wind, your jump distance is tripled instead of doubled, and if you're running on a wall or other surface that cannot support you, you do not fall at the end of a turn when you have used Step of the Wind."

I'm tempted to go so far as to have a single jump made when using Step of the Wind not count against your movement, but that might be way too much speed boosting.

[CMCC]

So terrible. They get pretty much no good features. None.

[Sception]

Does the ki cost even matter on the dragon breath? The damage is so low that you probably need to hit 3+ enemies to make it even worth considering. Single target is outright weaker than the attack you give up (an observation, not a complaint in and of itself), two enemies should be about even on total damage when you include Tasha's monk changes and typically available magic weapons, but splitting damage between multiple enemies is generally weaker than concentrating that damage on one, especially when we're talking about low amounts of damage like individual monk attacks - I don't think overkill on a single target is something any monk has been forced to worry about in 5e. 3 or more enemies and the breath starts looking decent, but how often do you run into situations where you can tag 3 or more enemies with a 20' cone or 30' line without hitting allies at the same time? I mean, it happens, but 'proficiency times per day' is probably already going to cover it. This could have been an infinite use free ability and I don't think there would be any functional difference.

elemental strikes is neat, but virtually redundant 3 levels later, and even for the 3 levels that it matters a monk should probably be using an actual weapon for their normal attacks anyway, so it's only affecting your bonus action attacks.

The level 6 feature is dramatically worse than pretty much any other equivalently leveled flight spell or class feature, especially since you have to spend ki to use it on a feature that already increases your jump distance anyway.

Resistance to a chosen element aura is good, but, you only get that once per day before hitting a kind of ridiculous ki cost, and a 10' party buff aura on a class that wants to be dodging in and out of a fight (rather than planting themselves on the front and holding the line like a paladin) isn't the most mechanically coherent feature combo. And paladin auras are up 24 hours a day for free.

I don't know. This subclass looks plenty flavorful, but not particularly mechanically sound. A lot of ribbons, a lot of mechanical features that are only nominal improvements over the things a monk with no subclass at all was already doing. I'd put it next to 4 elements, sun soul, & jojo - ie well below shadow and a far, far cry from mercy. I'm all for 'new material should be middle of the pack', but ime all-monk campaigns are pretty rare, so imo 'middle of the pack' should mean in comparison to all subclasses of all classes, not just other monks.

[Unoriginal]

Does the ki cost even matter on the dragon breath? The damage is so low that you probably need to hit 3+ enemies to make it even worth considering.

As opposed to other AoEs, which are worth considering for single-target damage?

[Segev]

As opposed to other AoEs, which are worth considering for single-target damage?

His point is that you have a choice of AoE for 2 ki or an attack against one target for 0 ki. If you're damaging 2 creatures for less damage, then it's still not worth it compared to the 0 ki attack because of the 2 ki. Hence his estimate that you need to be hitting at least three creatures for it to work out.

I, personally, think it's worth using if you're facing two creatures that have about 1.5x the hp you can deal in a single attack: then, breathe on them for one attack, extra attack to finish one of them, and bonus action martial arts attack to finish the other. Similar for 3 creatures at about that level if you're willing to flurry of blows.

But are 3 ki points worth KOing three creatures rather than KOing one and damaging another? Maybe! Maybe not. For 2 ki points, you could hit two creatures and potentially stun them both.

[strangebloke]

It's worth pointing out that 'save for half' effects punch above their weight when the failure state is considered.

so in this case, at level five you get 2d6 damage which is 7, unless they save, and then its 3.5. If your odds of them saving are 50/50 that's an average damage output of 5.25. A flurry attack for one ki at this level deals 1d6+4 which is 7.5. It's higher! But given the same odds of success, that's actually lower average damage, just 3.75. So in this (admittedly contrived) scenario, a dragon breath that hits two targets gives really good value (10.5 damage expected) compared to using flurry twice (7.5 damage expected) If its a free usage of dragon breath and you're hitting three targets, that's just icing.

EDIT: technically this is a lot more complex as dragon's breath uses up a main-action attack (1d10+4) but also turns the BA attack into a weapon attack (which is something like +2 damage at this level). So the 2ki version costs 2 ki as well as depriving you of 0.50 * (1d10+4) - 0.50 * 2 = 3.75 damage. Weird math but yeah this dragon's breath is slightly worse if you've only two targets and equal rates of failure. So reserve the 2 ki version unless you have 3 targets or you're fighting enemies who is more vulnerable to dexterity saves (like animated armor) Either way gets a LOT better at level 11.

But you can also just ask your DM to houserule the stupid thing :smallcool:

[Thunderous Mojo]

The level 6 feature is dramatically worse than pretty much any other equivalently leveled flight spell or class feature, especially since you have to spend ki to use it on a feature that already increases your jump distance anyway..

It seems similar to a Psi Warriors Psi-Empowered Leap. Double your movement in Flying speed for 1 turn is useful.

Many people on this board take a dim view about the utility of Jumping in 5e .

So is the complaint that a Dragonmonk's flight, (while an improvement over Jumping), is somehow a bad power because it makes Jumping unnecessary?

If Jumping is a poor option, isn't Flight then always an Improvement?

Is a Monk with an Eagle Bone Whistle or Winged Boots worse than a monk without those items, because Flight means you can't walk on walls?

It strikes me that people are not 'pricing' the value of having multiple locomotive options correctly.

The Breath Weapon could use a Proficiency Bonus boost to the AoE damage. A T4 Dragonmonk that is doing 3d10 +6 damage with a Breath Weapon, has a better damage distribution than 6d6 Damage.

6 Free uses of an AoE that can be either a Line or Cone, doing 22 damage on average, which also can be used during the middle of your move, (unlike a spell such as Dragon's Breath), seems a T4 worthy ability.

[Dork_Forge]

Aside from the usual ki-choked nature of a monk,

But they get features that either have free uses, free uses with the option of additional paid uses, passive abilities and enhancement of existing core features.

So how is this particular Monk Ki starved, or not one of the more efficient Monks?


that aura is telling them to stand still while everything else tells them to move in and out.

Monks can skirmish, that doesn't mean that they have to, the resistance is at worst personal and if there's multiple melee characters there's likely going to be someone in your aura. Likewise the breath gives you a tool to use at range. It'd be nice if it was a bit larger, but I don't think it constitutes a conflict in playstyle.


The flight overwrites the jumping ability that you have to trigger to use it, making it far less of a buff than it sounds like, and also undermines the level 9 feature (though you still can get some use out of it if you're not using step of the wind).

This utterly confuses me, I think because Step of the Wind isn't 'a jumping ability' the jumping is a ribbon to the real benefit, the dash or disengage. The reality is that unless you have a good strength doubling your jump distance still won't be particularly far or impressive. Flight is unquestionably better in every way, and getting a better version of ribbon is an odd thing to see as a conflict. If anything it greatly increases the chance someone will actually use the ability.

Likewise, the level 9 ability doesn't seem like much of a conflict, if there are walls or liquid then do the free thing, but realistically there are just going to be situations where those things either aren't there or are not helpful to you.

And I have to point out that the inherent speed of the Monk means that the flight speed can allow then to cover a crazy distance, in or out of combat.


It's a lot of small things that either work against each other, or make the benefits they grant smaller relative increases than they sound like, and so few of them work well together that even where they don't self-defeat, you're hard-pressed to use the features as anything but separate choices.

I don't think these things actually conflict that much, if at all, and in play they wouldn't feel that way, but obviously YMMV.

Separately for the thread:

I don't understand why people are still focusing on the Ki cost, I mean seriously jumping the free uses to pick flaws or just compare it to the UA?

The attack comparisons also usually seem to be 1d8 or 1d10, which means optimised weapon choices. Whilst yes you could use those weapons, you can't use one of your core features with weapons and not everyone will pick the optimal choice.

[Kane0]

The fact that so much math has to be pulled out to justify using the breath i think is a good indicator that it isnt that great.

I think adding Prof or Wis bonus or a the option for an extra damage die for 1 Ki would largely put an end to that.

[Witty Username]

The attack comparisons also usually seem to be 1d8 or 1d10, which means optimised weapon choices. Whilst yes you could use those weapons, you can't use one of your core features with weapons and not everyone will pick the optimal choice.

Which core feature are you referring to specifically? I want to make sure I am clear on your point before I make assumptions.

I assume 1d8 for monk because it is quarterstaff damage, It tends to be my favorite choice of weapon thematically, I think it is one of the better choices for monk but also its not that off the beaten path to acquire.

[stoutstien]

The fact that so much math has to be pulled out to justify using the breath i think is a good indicator that it isnt that great.

I think adding Prof or Wis bonus or a the option for an extra damage die for 1 Ki would largely put an end to that.

To be fair there's always a lot of math involved with dealing with the monks because they have so many individual interactions in a single turn
Having a new 1/2 of action option is going take a lot table time/ tracking to really see how it works out

[Unoriginal]

His point is that you have a choice of AoE for 2 ki or an attack against one target for 0 ki. If you're damaging 2 creatures for less damage, then it's still not worth it compared to the 0 ki attack because of the 2 ki. Hence his estimate that you need to be hitting at least three creatures for it to work out.

I, personally, think it's worth using if you're facing two creatures that have about 1.5x the hp you can deal in a single attack: then, breathe on them for one attack, extra attack to finish one of them, and bonus action martial arts attack to finish the other. Similar for 3 creatures at about that level if you're willing to flurry of blows.

But are 3 ki points worth KOing three creatures rather than KOing one and damaging another? Maybe! Maybe not. For 2 ki points, you could hit two creatures and potentially stun them both.

Can we at least agree that it's worth using the Breaths when they cost 0 ki?

[Sception]

so in this case, at level five you get 2d6 damage which is 7, unless they save, and then its 3.5. If your odds of them saving are 50/50 that's an average damage output of 5.25. A flurry attack for one ki at this level deals 1d6+4 which is 7.5. It's higher! But given the same odds of success, that's actually lower average damage, just 3.75.

Except that the flame doesn't replace a flurry attack, it replaces a regular attack, which is probably dealing 1d10+4, which is 9.5. With the same odds of success that's 4.75, which is still a higher average. Except why are we assuming the same odds of success? The breath is based on your wisdom DC, and if you're assuming a +4 dex bonus then your dex at this level is higher than your wisdom (as it should be. And a lot of enemies have rather good dex saves. It's also not too difficult to set up advantage on melee attacks, while forcing disadvantage on enemy saving throws is extremely rare. Also magical weapons that improve the accuracy and/or damage of your weapon attacks are relatively common in published adventures, while those that increase save DC, especially for a monk, are vanishingly rare. And while MADness prevents most monks from spending ASIs on feats, variant human monks have access to feats that can meaningfully improve their weapon attack effectivenes, while nothing similar is really available for the breath.

My point isn't that the breath is useless. There will be times when you can tag enough enemies to make it well worth using. I'm just saying ime those opportunities aren't so frequent that you're likely to even bump into the proficiency bonus cap of free uses. The breath isn't bad, it's just ok. It doesn't really strike me as a selling point. Maybe if the damage were a bit higher, or if more enemies in the game were vulnerable to some elemental damage type. As it is, it doesn't strike me as that much more an attack alternative than the sun soul's laser beams, and nobody seems to argue that the sun soul is any good.

[Unoriginal]

Except that the flame doesn't replace a flurry attack, it replaces a regular attack, which is probably dealing 1d10+4, which is 9.5.

How is a lvl 5 Monk "probably dealing 1d10+4"? Most Monks don't have access to 1d10 weapons at that level.

[PhoenixPhyre]

How is a lvl 5 Monk "probably dealing 1d10+4"? Most Monks don't have access to 1d10 weapons at that level.

Yeah. Quarterstaff is only a d8 even in 2 hands. In fact, I can't think of any non-kensei monk weapon that's a d10 (except much higher level Monk Dice). And you can't be a dragon monk and a kensei.

[Ralanr]

Yeah. Quarterstaff is only a d8 even in 2 hands. In fact, I can't think of any non-kensei monk weapon that's a d10 (except much higher level Monk Dice). And you can't be a dragon monk and a kensei.

Arguably any race that has long sword or the like weapon proficiency, as they can turn those into a monk weapon.

So two handed versatile brings it to 1d10.

Which is niche but there.

[Thunderous Mojo]

My point isn't that the breath is useless. There will be times when you can tag enough enemies to make it well worth using. I'm just saying ime those opportunities aren't so frequent that you're likely to even bump into the proficiency bonus cap of free uses. The breath isn't bad, it's just ok. It doesn't really strike me as a selling point. Maybe if the damage were a bit higher, or if more enemies in the game were vulnerable to some elemental damage type. As it is, it doesn't strike me as that much more an attack alternative than the sun soul's laser beams, and nobody seems to argue that the sun soul is any good.

There is a lot that I agree with here. Against a Gargantuan Creature..the AoE is for practical purposes is likely winding up being a Single Target effect.

A T4 monk with 20 Dex wielding a Staff of Striking in two hands, is expected to be roughly producing 14 damage when not using any of the staff's charges on a hit.

A blow where the monk expends three charges from the Staff of Striking,
is expected to produce, (roughly), 25 points of damage, on a hit.

The expected damage on a failed save for the Breath Weapon as written is 16.5 damage in T4.

Even when using the Breath Weapon as a single target effect, a failed saving throw, means the monk is doing more damage than they would do normally, when compared to a single hit with a +3 Quarterstaff used in two hands by a monk with 20 Dexterity.

The Breath Weapon, when used on a single target in T4, is underperforming compared to the expected damage of a two handed blow delivered whilst expending three charges from a Staff of Striking.

That is a bar, that could only be exceeded by monks with Girdles of Storm Giant Strength using three charges Staff of Striking.
(Legendary Tomes can produce similar results)

If you alter the Dragonmonk's Breath Weapon to add the character's Proficiency Bonus to the damage, then the Breath Weapon is keeping up with the single target damage expected from a 3 Charge Strike from a Staff of Striking wielded by a monk with 20 Dexterity.

Postscript: One Question after a long post: Can the Dragonmonk's Breath Weapon affect objects?

If so..Acid Breath against locks, Fire Breath to light candles, (and a friend's cloak), on fire from a distance, etc, etc, etc are viable uses of the power.

[Sception]

Who plays in tier 4? The vast majority of published adventure paths end by level 11. The most recent one isn't designed to even make it to level 10. Most campaigns start at level 1, tier 4 comparisons are a pipe dream. Even then, at level 20 enemies have hundreds of hit points, and 16.5 damage barely registers. That it's better than a monk's melee attack damage at that point isn't showing how good the breath is, but rather how poorly monk melee damage scales into the higher levels.

I'm not saying the monk is worthless there, they've got a lot of ki by that point to funnel into stunning strike (or hands of harm for mercy), in order to set enemies up for even bigger damage from the party's dedicated damage dealers. And again, the breath weapon is still ok, it's not terrible to have or anything. But even at the highest levels the highest levels its still roughly equivalent to a fireball spell, but fireball was 15 levels ago and the wizards who were rocking it at level 5 likely don't even consider it worth memorizing anymore.


I'm not trying to say the breath weapon is a bad feature - not like the level six flight ability which I do think is just really bad. Rather, I don't see it as a major selling point of the subclass the way hands of harm is for a mercy monk. And imo monk subclasses need that kind of selling point.

[Segev]

Can we at least agree that it's worth using the Breaths when they cost 0 ki?

I would argue that it would be balanced at 0 ki, once on each of your turns, no other limit on number of uses. The trade-off of damage as written and the need to hit multiple targets with it to make up for that is sufficient that even if it didn't come at the opportunity cost of a different archetype, it'd be reasonably balanced.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Who plays in tier 4? The vast majority of published adventure paths end by level 11. ...
Dude...T4 is just an example.
Also..play some T4...you have 2 years before your XP is converted into D&D DragonCoin for the 50th Anniversary Money Grab 🃏
The point is even when using the Dragonmonk Breath Weapon as a single target effect, it seems to be keeping pace with a +3 Quarterstaff.

Now, in T1, the Dragon Breath is not keeping up with a +3 Quarterstaff. I also think, however, that no one expects that to be a reasonable baseline assumption.

At it's weakest point, the Breath Weapon when used against a single target is underperforming the two handed Quarterstaff, (the Killer App of Monkdom), by two points on average.

2d4 damage means a roughly 12% chance of doing 7 points of damage, on a failed saving throw...which is enough to kill unlucky standard goblins.

Houserule that the character's PB is added to damage and the single target damage gap is reduced further.

[strangebloke]

Except that the flame doesn't replace a flurry attack, it replaces a regular attack, which is probably dealing 1d10+4, which is 9.5. With the same odds of success that's 4.75, which is still a higher average. Except why are we assuming the same odds of success? The breath is based on your wisdom DC, and if you're assuming a +4 dex bonus then your dex at this level is higher than your wisdom (as it should be. And a lot of enemies have rather good dex saves. It's also not too difficult to set up advantage on melee attacks, while forcing disadvantage on enemy saving throws is extremely rare. Also magical weapons that improve the accuracy and/or damage of your weapon attacks are relatively common in published adventures, while those that increase save DC, especially for a monk, are vanishingly rare. And while MADness prevents most monks from spending ASIs on feats, variant human monks have access to feats that can meaningfully improve their weapon attack effectivenes, while nothing similar is really available for the breath.

I went through this in my edit. If you have longsword proficiency somehow (because you're an elf, say) you "lose" 4.75 damage because you're not getting one of your main attacks. But you also "gain" +2 damage on your BA attack because you're using ki-fueled strikers from 1d6+4 to 1d10+4. After accounting for accuracy the net loss is 3.75.

Going back to the earlier math, this shows the DB as slightly behind two uses of flurry in total damage added if you're hitting two targets with it. If you're using three, its more efficient.

As for dex versus attack... Not really? Like maybe this is a slightly slanted pick, but just for a quick check assuming +7 and DC 14:

Goblin: AC 15 is hit 65% of the time, +2 DEX fails 55% of the time
Hobgoblin: AC 18 is hit 50% of the time, +1 DEX fails 60% of the time
Orc: AC 13 is hit 75% of the time, +1 DEX fails 60% of the time
Guard: AC 16 is hit 60% of the time, +1 DEX fails 60% of the time
Gnoll: AC 15 is hit 65% of the time, +1 DEX fails 60% of the time


There are some examples that are more favorable to your argument and some that are more favorable mine but overall I don't think this is some huge error in my calc. You're quibbling over like 10% at most.

My point isn't that the breath is useless. There will be times when you can tag enough enemies to make it well worth using. I'm just saying ime those opportunities aren't so frequent that you're likely to even bump into the proficiency bonus cap of free uses.
I don't agree here. I think your DM needs to run more mobs if this is the case. 2-3 rounds of large numbers of enemies should be very common throughout an adventuring day. As I showed above, even if you can get two enemies in a DB, its about as good as two flurries. Maybe a little better or worse depending on how you do it, and a lot better if you can hit three.

But its only comparable to 2 flurries if you're paying ki for it. If you're not... well 3 Dragon Breaths are about equal to 6 flurries at level five. Six free flurries per day is no joke at that level, I think a lot of people complaining about monk lacking damage should be excited about this.


How is a lvl 5 Monk "probably dealing 1d10+4"? Most Monks don't have access to 1d10 weapons at that level.
If you're a wood elf and using dedicated weapon it can be done though the way the math works out it doesn't actually matter in this case.

I would argue that it would be balanced at 0 ki, once on each of your turns, no other limit on number of uses. The trade-off of damage as written and the need to hit multiple targets with it to make up for that is sufficient that even if it didn't come at the opportunity cost of a different archetype, it'd be reasonably balanced.
hahahahah

No way man. This thing already does pretty comparable damage to a longsword hit with no ki expended and only one target at 5th level. Making this free would let you just sweep through enemies at 5th level or so, and when the damage spikes up to 3d8 per breath at 11th it'd be ridiculous.

Just make it one ki, get rid of the free uses, but let you spend as many DBs in a turn as you like TYVM.

[Segev]

No way man. This thing already does pretty comparable damage to a longsword hit with no ki expended and only one target at 5th level. Making this free would let you just sweep through enemies at 5th level or so, and when the damage spikes up to 3d8 per breath at 11th it'd be ridiculous.

Just make it one ki, get rid of the free uses, but let you spend as many DBs in a turn as you like TYVM.

Considering the opportunity cost of other archetypes? No, I don't think that'd be all that ridiculous at level 11. If you really think so, though, don't spike up the number of dice for free; let them spend 1 ki for +1 die. If it's really as ridiculous as you say, that should be worth it.

[Amechra]

Let's crunch some numbers (assuming we're fighting 3 goblins)

Kensei 5: Uses Deft Strike on their first hit and flurries (2 ki spent).
Dragon 5: Replaces one of their attacks with a breath weapon, makes a Ki-Fueled Attack (2 ki spent).

With the Kensei, you have two longsword attacks and two unarmed strikes — since WLoG all of your attacks have the same chance to hit and crit, you deal roughly ~25.5 damage split across three goblins.
With the Dragon Monk, you have two quarterstaff¹ attacks and your 2d6 breath weapon — your routine is going to average ~23.5 damage across those three goblins.

...

That does put the ki cost into perspective, especially once you consider that you're not really going to bust out your breath weapon unless you're dealing with a bunch of little dudes, and that I was very generous to the Kensei. I still hate the free uses for aesthetic reasons, but the breath weapon doesn't seem as garbage anymore.

Now, the rest of the features, on the other hand...

¹ The Dragon Monk is using a quarterstaff because that's the best option available to most monks, and I'm assuming that both characters are equally optimized.

[animewatcha]

Yeah. Quarterstaff is only a d8 even in 2 hands. In fact, I can't think of any non-kensei monk weapon that's a d10 (except much higher level Monk Dice). And you can't be a dragon monk and a kensei.

Using tasha. Switch out proficiency with short sword for proficiency for longsword. Then 2nd-level plus monk using the ki-focused weapon thing to count it as a monk weapon. D10 in both hands.