Most optimized 4 person, single classed party from levels 3-12?

[Ogre Mage]

What would you consider to be the most optimized 4 person party?

1. 27 point buy.
2. No multi-classed characters but individual party members may be of different classes.
3. Classes, subclasses and races from officially published WotC books only. No UA.
4. Default rules for racial attribute bonuses. No customized origin attribute bonuses.
5. The campaign will begin at level 3 and end at level 12.
6. The campaign will be roughly 40% combat, 30% social and 30% exploration.
7. Officially published WotC feats are allowed.

[Eldariel]

My standard answer is Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Bard (Bladesinger/Shepherd/Twilight-or-Peace-or-Arcana/Lore) though on 13 specifically it's probably just 4 Wizards (e.g. Bladesinger/Chronurgist/Illusionist/Jorasco Transmuter) due to Simulacrum. Pally or Warlock is fine too but you largely get sufficient DPR and defenses plus everything else from spells so an extra list plus abilities tends to be favourable.

[LordShade]

Twilight cleric and 3 commoners.

[Foolwise]

I read 'single-classed party' to mean a party of a single class. Either way, 4 Wizkids.

[Saelethil]

I read 'single-classed party' to mean a party of a single class. Either way, 4 Wizkids.

I think 4 Bards could probably conquer the world without making enemies.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give everyone bling-fighting style or eldritch adept: devil's sight, and make sure a few people can cast Darkness?

[Foolwise]

I think 4 Bards could probably conquer the world without making enemies.

4 Bards make no enemies, 4 Wizards leave no enemies. So world domination comes down to a choice of how much you like people.

[da newt]

4 necromancer wizards have MANY former enemies that are now 'friends' ...

[Bobthewizard]

I'll go with druid, wizard, bard, sorcerer, taking the best defensive option for each of them.

Shepherd druid
Mark of warding abjuration wizard
Valor bard
Clockwork soul sorcerer

[Greywander]

Maybe something like this?

Artillerist Artificer - Brings firepower and support spells, and, more importantly, grants temp HP to the party as a BA with their turret. This alone will greatly increase the longevity of the party. Also handles all tool stuff, like picking locks.
Any kind of Paladin, perhaps Conquest for the control - Aura boosts party saving throws, smites make for excellent single-target damage. Can serve as the party tank.
Any kind of Wizard, maybe Necromancer for minionmancy - Utility spellcasting with a very large variety to choose from. Also good damage spells, particularly AoE. Gets them sooner than the artificer.
Moon Druid - Excellent wildcard who can fill almost any vacant role.

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe something like this?

Artillerist Artificer - Brings firepower and support spells, and, more importantly, grants temp HP to the party as a BA with their turret. This alone will greatly increase the longevity of the party. Also handles all tool stuff, like picking locks. So much this. The artificer artillerist (me DM) has prevented thousands of points of damage.

Any kind of Paladin, perhaps Conquest for the control - Aura boosts party saving throws, smites make for excellent single-target damage. Can serve as the party tank. Yep.

Any kind of Wizard, maybe Necromancer for minionmancy Please don't. Table play would slow to a crawl. Go Evoker or Diviner.

Moon Druid - Excellent wildcard who can fill almost any vacant role. And can drop in a few minions while he's at it. When he can wild shape into an elemental at 10 it's pretty cool. :smallsmile:

[Eldariel]

I just realised that it was 3-12 instead of 13-12... So scratch my earlier answer. While it's still valid, in 3-12 there's a reason to consider Moon Druid in addition to Shepherd (less powerful on 6-12 but stronger 3-5 and that's where the help is more beneficial by and large even though the number of levels Shepherd has the edge on is much larger - also, Elemental Wildshape doesn't match up to Shepherd's level 6 ability + totem, but it's a good set of extra options to have an earth gliding scout capable of staying inside the earth indefinitely by SRing while Elemental Shaped among other things). And Twilight/Peace definitely over Arcana in this range; Arcana gets better the higher you go while Twilight and Peace both give crushing amounts of low level power in addition to fairly solid high level options.

Bladesinger vs. Swords Bard is still a tough call: purely on class power, Chronurgist/Diviner/Scribe/Necromancer/Evoker/Abjurer probably beat Bladesinger and Lore/Eloquence generally beat out Swords, but having one long range physical damage dealer in the party can be immensely valuable in many scenarios (it's good for buff stacking, long range combat, magic immune and Globed and such enemies, firing blind, etc.), so one has to bite the bullet. And I feel like base Wizard is better enough than base Bard that base Bard does want the benefits granted by Lore to stand out (especially in high optimisation party where we're bringing out minionmancy on level 5 and no Bard other than Lore really has solid options) while even Bladesinger is still a really solid Wizard in addition to providing the martial type to the party.

[Greywander]

Please don't. Table play would slow to a crawl. Go Evoker or Diviner.
I understand the reluctance toward a minionmancy build, but there's no denying how powerful and useful it is. Even just an extra 4 skeletons or zombies can help hold off half the enemies while you finish the other half. When you just need extra bodies on the field and don't really care about their individual power, Necromancers stand above most other minionmancy builds. Sadly, if the campaign ends by 13th level then you won't get to benefit from one of their coolest features: Command Undead. Being able to take control of a white dracolich or mummy lord and make them a permanent ally is pretty baller. A white dracolich could also serve as a party mount, which would be cool (no pun intended).

I think the main problem with minionmancy is how it's handled at the table. There are definitely ways to speed it up, and those should be employed. Don't treat your minions as individual creatures that each take their own turn, treat them as a block. If you have 8 skeleton archers, then treat it more like a single creature making 8 attacks, and roll all 8 at once instead of sequentially. If you have to, impose a time limit on the wizard (or, more likely, on everyone) so that they're forced to decide and act quickly.

That said, while Necromancer might be the most strictly optimized, any kind of wizard would be sufficient. If you still wanted minionmancy on occasion, you would still have access to Animate Dead and conjuration spells. Wizards don't get as much from their subclass as some other classes do.

As an alternative to a Moon Druid, you could also go for a Life Cleric instead. They can serve as a secondary tank, especially since being a healer will make them a prime target, and they heal themselves when healing someone else. In combination with the Artillerist granting temp HP, this will make your party very hard to kill. Clerics are also good support casters and have a few damage options when healing isn't needed. Don't think of clerics as strictly healers, even Life clerics; they're actually fairly versatile.

[Eldariel]

That said, while Necromancer might be the most strictly optimized, any kind of wizard would be sufficient. If you still wanted minionmancy on occasion, you would still have access to Animate Dead and conjuration spells. Wizards don't get as much from their subclass as some other classes do.

I'm not sure Necromancer is the most optimised necessarily: as you said, they'll all abuse undead anyways. Necromancer gets tougher undead, sure, but there are plenty of other awesome unique things Wizard subclasses do. Diviner is certainly the class for taking down improbable odds as early as possible. I don't remember how many ridiculous low level encounters in various adventures I've flagged as "You're screwed unless you're specifically a Diviner with Hideous Laughter", but there's a whole bunch of them. Whenever there's a tough boss early on, Diviner can turn it into a cakewalk (as long as one of their Portent dice is somewhat below 10). And for optimised party, Expert Divination can provide a lot of value too.

Though Chronurgist/War Wizard initiate bonus has a lot going on for it, for much the same reason: one of the few ways to turn near hopeless fights into easy wins is to go first and drop a huge CC spell (Portent can kinda do that too, but it takes more advance warning and you have to have a high die left, which is possible but not a given).


As an alternative to a Moon Druid, you could also go for a Life Cleric instead. They can serve as a secondary tank, especially since being a healer will make them a prime target, and they heal themselves when healing someone else. In combination with the Artillerist granting temp HP, this will make your party very hard to kill. Clerics are also good support casters and have a few damage options when healing isn't needed. Don't think of clerics as strictly healers, even Life clerics; they're actually fairly versatile.

You could also just drop the Artillerist for e.g. Twilight Cleric (even more temp HP and restoration) and just have both.

[Ogre Mage]

I read 'single-classed party' to mean a party of a single class. Either way, 4 Wizkids.

It is fine for the individual party members to be of different classes (paladin, wizard, etc). My intention was just to disallow multi-classed PCs as it is too easy to make a broken character (sorlock, etc.) I updated No. 2 to read --


2. No multi-classed characters but individual party members may be of different classes

Also, everyone remember the campaign is starting at level 3 (and ending at level 12).

[Hawk7915]

I think it's beautiful that there's not a clear-cut answer here. Mine would be...

Peace Domain Cleric (any race with +Wis): Bless + Bond is +2d4 to most rolls, most fights, which breaks the game. The rest of the party is mostly an afterthought...

Eloquence Bard (any race with +Cha):...but, why not add even MORE bonuses to break the bounded accuracy of 5E even harder? And have some great control casting and a great party face while we're at it?

A "warrior" type: I don't care to do the math and see if Samurai Fighter, Vengeance Paladin, Gloomstalker Ranger, Zealot Barbarian, or a different subclass of the above is better. The point here is to be a Vhuman with either Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter online at 1st level, so that you can convert broken attack bonuses into massive damage. I strongly suspect that the melee-types who have the option to wield a Glaive and go for Pole-arm Master at 4th are the best, but archery has its own perks especially an Aarakocra Ranger.

A flexible jack of all trades: Moon Druid or Armorer Artificer are my picks here; a character that can effortlessly slide into melee or fight from range while also packing tons and tons of out-of-combat utility. I like these two a bit more than Dwarf Wizard (especially with no TCoE stat realigning) or Bladesinger Wizard, but for sure Wizard is pretty close behind here and if the Cleric is okay wading up front when required Wizard might be even better.

[KorvinStarmast]

I understand the reluctance toward a minionmancy Levels 3-12. This edition gets a bit unwieldy with a large number of combatants unless you come up with your own tools to handle larger body count combats.
As an alternative to a Moon Druid, you could also go for a Life Cleric instead. I've played multiple Life domain Clerics. Solid from levels 3-12, per the problem statement. :smallsmile:

[RogueJK]

1. Tank/Melee Damage/Backup Support: Variant Human Paladin (Vengeance) with Polearm Master and GWM [STR>CON>CHA]
2. Support/Backup Tank: Hill Dwarf Cleric (Twilight/Peace) or Variant Human Druid (Moon/Shepherd) [WIS>CON]
3. Control/Blaster/Utility: Rock Gnome or Variant Human Wizard (Bladesinger/Chronurgy) [INT>CON>DEX]
4. Wild Card/Skill Monkey/Scout/Face: Half Elf Bard (Eloquence/Lore) [CHA>DEX>CON]


Or, if you want to be cheeky and go with the aforementioned 4 wizards (although lower levels would be rough):
1. "Cleric" Support/Healer: Mark of Healing Halfling Transmuter with the Fey Touched feat for Bless [High INT/CON with a moderate DEX]
2. "Fighter" Tank: Hobgoblin Abjurer with the Moderately Armored feat [High STR/CON with a 14 DEX and moderate INT]
3. "Rogue" DEX-based Melee/Skill Monkey/Scout/Face: Goblin or Half Elf Bladesinger with the Skill Expert (Stealth or Persuasion) feat and the Criminal/Urchin background for Thieves Tools [High DEX/INT with a moderate CHA/CON]
4. "Wizard" Control/Blaster: Variant Human or Rock Gnome Evoker [High INT/CON with a moderate DEX]

[Sillybird99]

The lack of monk, ranger, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, and barbarian on any of these lists says a lot about this edition. maybe about dnd in general.

[RogueJK]

The lack of monk, ranger, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, and barbarian on any of these lists says a lot about this edition. maybe about dnd in general.

If the parameters allowed Multiclassing, we'd likely see Fighter, Rogue, Warlock, and Sorcerer make more of an appearance.

[Eldariel]

The lack of monk, ranger, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, and barbarian on any of these lists says a lot about this edition. maybe about dnd in general.

Indeed: from an optimization perspective, why pick a class with slightly superior at-will damage when you can just pick a class that has resources to do just as much or more for any relevant amount of encounters per day while also having lots of options for solving all sorts of non-combat challenges and for easily solving different types of combat challenges against enemies with certain weaknesses.

That said, Warlock is a fine class - it just has a weak point right in Tier 2, which is where majority of this hypothetical play would happen. It's fine in Tier 1 and Tier 3+ (though second to the top casters there of course) but most of this challenge takes place where it's the weakest. As for Sorc, it's a fine class - but even with the new archetypes, happens to lack the strongest casting thing in the game, minionmancy (aside from Divine Soul which is actually pretty good with Animate Dead).

[Hawk7915]

The lack of monk, ranger, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, and barbarian on any of these lists says a lot about this edition. maybe about dnd in general.

Yeah, a problem for most of the non-Monks & Rogues there are that they are all front-loaded classes; they are strongest from levels 2-5 or so. That means that in CharOp they are extremely popular multiclass targets (which is disallowed here) and they're fairly popular in play (because it is rare in practice for real people to get to play a ton beyond 1-6 or so, in my experience). Since our challenge is a 4-man group from 3-12 with no multiclassing, it's harder to recommend classes that feel so "dead" after those first few levels in comparison to the competition. For the record, I think Fighter, Ranger, and Barbarian using their best subclasses aren't THAT far behind a Paladin as the primary "smasher" of a strong group - since the power of warriors in this edition is buried in feats (Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, Crossbow Expert) the chassis you strap those feats to doesn't matter as much. Heck, from a raw DPR perspective I suspect that Fighter and Ranger come out a bit ahead (at the cost of less burst damage and less utility/survivability compared to a Paladin).

Monks and Rogues make poor options in part because they aren't able to effectively use those feats (monks due to proficiency issues unless they go Kensei Archer, Rogues for proficiency and also because their bonus action tends to get claimed by Cunning Action stuff which makes it tough to get full value off of Crossbow Expert and they need to hit too badly to afford Sharpshooter). Monks also have the problem of spending a ton of class features to be "almost as good at living/damage-dealing as a Fighter" - an eternal problem of the class, compounded by TCoE giving Fighters better unarmed fighting than a monk.

Meanwhile, Warlocks are weird in that their power is super spiky I've found (having DMd a Warlock from 2-9). At early levels they feel awesome since they can spam their strongest spells every encounter; at higher levels as other casters get more spells known and more slots they can feel really pigeon-holed as one-trick ponies who only get to do one cool thing per encounter before becoming an Eldritch Blast turret. Hexblade helps some, and probably isn't too far behind other warrior types as a PAMspammer in this challenge (in fact they may come out ahead with Elven Accuracy and/or if the party has limited magic weapon access) but yeah, other Warlock subclasses tend to be a bit more mediocre.

And Sorcerers suffer from their best tricks being easily replicated by feats and by many of their subclasses sucking. I think a Celestial Sorcerer or a Clockwork Sorcerer would fit fine here too and isn't that far behind - but they are behind.

[Waazraath]

The lack of monk, ranger, fighter, rogue, sorcerer, warlock, and barbarian on any of these lists says a lot about this edition. maybe about dnd in general.

Nah, really doesn't say much at all. In the first place, post #16 mentiones both fighter ranger rogue and barbarian as option. Second place, when you look at a thread like this some time ago, there were rogues and fighters and Sorcerers a plenty: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?585721-Challenge-Best-4-man-Party

Third: the '4 bards' '4 wizards' etc comments are imo simply flat out wrong, I'm not even sure if the are serious. 4 wizards are terrible when you start at level 3. One ambush when you are unprepared and where you roll bad for initiative, and you have a tpk. Bards are too squishy as well on their own. Both classes need their spell slots to stay alive, limiting their offensive power. If you run a campaign where the party doesn't dictate the pacing, parties like these are terrible in long adventuring days, especially in tier 1. Having an entire party playing one class is making yourself artificially weak. Yeah, in 5e they can survive nevertheless, but 'most optimized': nope. Even if bards or wizards really would be so great (they are not), a party of 3 wizards and a paladin >>> 4 wizards.

For team optimization, I'd always go (as said in the earlier post I linked to):
o An obligatory paladin (+5 saves just too good)
o One or more sources of temporary HP and / or extra HP (aid / heroes feast)
o The option to solve encounters trough fight, talk and stealth. The latter requires all characters to be at least somewhat proficient and have a decent dex, and preferably also have somebody with Pass without Trace.

Additionally, after Tasha's its all to easy to do what Biffoniacus_Furiou suggested in post #6 - go for an entire darkness resistant party. Given that you can bypass darkness with a simple fighting style or invocation (and after Tasha's, a feat) and there are plenty of classes by now that simply ignore it, you can grab this gimmick as 'just a nice something extra' without having to heavily invest in it.

I think I'd go for something like: a paladin (ancients), a shepard druid, a BM fighter CBE/SS, and a Clockwork Sorcerer (silent spell and heightened). Plenty of charisma for social interaction, lots of stealth, single target damage, single target spell (heighened), uncounterable spells with silent, area of effect, summons, temp hp, bonus on saves...

Of course, there are plenty of ways to do this, 'most optimized' is a bit of an illusion of course. But this covers the bases I think are most important.

[strangebloke]

Completely depends on what kind of adventuring day we're looking at here. Something like a hexblade rocks in a long adventuring day with lots of short rests but while still strong in a one-adventure day, almost always loses out to something like a paladin that has more resources to burn and can burn through them more quickly. Stuff like "how the DM runs encounters" matters a lot as well. If the entire adventuring day is five-foot wide corridors and small chambers with orcs guarding locked chests, melee looks a lot more viable than if all your encounters are against centaur archers on the open plains and dragons strafing you with breath attacks while you work your way up the mountainside.

For the "one big encounter per day in a 40x40 room" scenario I'd probably say something like


Vhuman ancients paladin with one level of hexblade, possibly going for sorcerer levels at the end. (just pick one of the good subclasses) The goal of this guy is to kill the boss super quickly while providing a bubble of defense. Ensnaring strike straight up murders mage enemies, Warcaster+BB for lockdown.
Hill Dwarf Twilight Cleric for insane THP and damage mitigation plus normal AOE goodies.
High Elf Bladesinger here to counterspell and do general crowd control while also having strong single target damage when needed (BB + shadow blade)
Half-Elf Lore Bard with the backup counterspell and a level of hexblade for improved defenses. Increases everyone's save resilience even more. Also covers pretty much all skills.



The basic rule here is of survivability and lockdown. Insanely high saves and AC across the board, loads of powerful spells to deal with groups of enemies and single entities, the ability to churn out really high damage in a burst turn if necessary.

The long day long range team is more debatable but personally I'd expect a lot of minionmancy, warlocks, and druids. Probably also still a twilight cleric because hot dang.

[jaappleton]

Four Shepard Druids.

Oh combat would take forever and a day but it would WORK.

[Bobthewizard]

Four Shepard Druids.

Oh combat would take forever and a day but it would WORK.

This is probably the right answer.

[RogueJK]

If you didn't want to go with the redundant approach of the "Quad Shepherd Party", an optimized minionmancy-focused party could look something like:

1. Rock Gnome Necromancer Wizard - Raise and buff undead minions, plus some control and blasting, along with Wizard utility spells and INT skills.

2. Variant Human Oathbreaker Paladin with PAM and GWM feats - Further buff undead minions, plus frontline melee damage output with PAM/GWM/Smite. Also the party strong guy for STR stuff.

3. Half Elf Shepherd Druid - Summon/Conjure additional non-undead minions, and further buff all minions with your Spirits, plus some healing and utility casting. Also, a moderate CHA (14ish) and extra skill proficiencies allows them to be the party Face, along with taking Inspiring Leader to further buff undead minions'/party members' HP.

4. Custom Lineage Ancestral Guardian Barbarian with Crossbow Master, Fighting Initiate (Archery), and Sharpshooter feats - Tag the biggest enemy with a Hand Crossbow bolt from 120' away each round, and the big baddie now has Disadvantage on any attacks against minions or other party members, and they all have Resistance to the big bad's damage. Meanwhile, you're chilling 120' away behind your Wall O' Minions, so they can't get to you. Plus, once you've landed your Ancestral Protectors with your first shot, you can crank on Sharpshooter for some additional ranged damage output on your two other attacks. Also serves as party Scout and Thief, thanks to high DEX, Stealth and Perception proficiency, Thieves Tools proficiency from Background, faster movement, and no armor penalty.


If you want to focus on having even more minions in play and greater skill versatility vs. greater protection for your existing minions and ranged damage output, #4 could also be swapped out for a Lore Bard, who could still handle the DEX skills (and more, along with being even better at the Party Face function than the Druid), and would allow you to conjure/summon/animate even more minions using stuff like Animate Objects as well as by poaching key Summon/Conjure spells and Aura buffs like Circle of Power with your various Magical Secrets. But the melee frontlines will already be fairly crowded with just the Necromancer/Shepherd Druid minions, so that might be too many minions...

[Ogre Mage]

Four Shepard Druids.

Oh combat would take forever and a day but it would WORK.



6. The campaign will be roughly 40% combat, 30% social and 30% exploration.


This party would be powerful for the 40% combat and 30% exploration, but how would you envision them handling the 30% social aspect of the campaign? On 27 point buy, druids are not known for high charisma.

[RogueJK]

This party would be powerful for the 40% combat and 30% exploration, but how would you envision them handling the 30% social aspect of the campaign? On 27 point buy, druids are not known for high charisma.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, you could tailor one of the four Shepherd Druids towards being the party Face by doing something like:

Half Elf Shepherd Druid
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 13 (for Resilient CON later)
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 12+2

You'd get two Racial skill proficiencies, plus 2 background skill proficiencies. So that's all four of the Face skills (Deception/Persuasion/Intimidation/Insight), plus 2 more Druid skills.

Take the Skill Expert feat at Druid 4 for +1 WIS, Expertise in Persuasion, and yet another skill proficiency. Then Resilient CON at Druid 8. Then a +1 WIS half-feat like Fey Touched or Telepathic at Level 12.

[strangebloke]

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, you could tailor one of the four Shepherd Druids towards being the party Face by doing something like:

Half Elf Shepherd Druid
STR 8
DEX 15+1
CON 13 (for Resilient CON later)
INT 8
WIS 15+1
CHA 12+2

You'd get two Racial skill proficiencies, plus 2 background skill proficiencies. So that's all four of the Face skills (Deception/Persuasion/Intimidation/Insight), plus 2 more Druid skills.

Take the Skill Expert feat at Druid 4 for +1 WIS, Expertise in Persuasion, and yet another skill proficiency. Then Resilient CON at Druid 8. Then a +1 WIS half-feat like Fey Touched or Telepathic at Level 12.
Ability scores are massively overrated for purposes of ability checks. after t1 proficiency tends to be more important than having a hugely high score anyway.

And of course, druids don't need, uh. Any ability scores. Forget SAD classes, the Druid is practically ZAD (zero-attribute dependent). It's very easy for a shepherds druid to just Conjure Animals and turn into a bear if there's any fear of getting hit so their physical stats tend not to be important (especially if they can get some kind of medium armor) and if they're focused on conjuring animals their wis mod doesn't come up that much. So you can just load up on CHA and then take a level of rogue.

But probably the optimal version here is something like 3 shepherds and a bard who poached crusader's mantle, or 3 shepherds and a paladin who can buff their saves.

[Greywander]

6. The campaign will be roughly 40% combat, 30% social and 30% exploration.
With this point specifically in mind, each character should be optimized to contribute to at least two of the three aspects here. Obviously, combat takes first priority, since it comprised the highest percent, and combat usually requires a team effort anyway, whereas a single face can usually handle most social stuff. So let me revise my original list.

Artillerist Artificer - The big one is being able to give the party temp HP every round as a BA. That's huge, it's not just additive to the combat strength of the party, it's multiplicative. The stronger the party is, the greater effect this will have. Artillerists specifically get several combat spells, such as Shield and Fireball, making them good as a backup blaster. Artificers also get some good support and utility spells, some of which can be useful for exploration. They're also specialized for tool use, and each one gets proficiency with thieves' tools, so they can at least partially fill the rogue's role. Finally, they can provide a number of useful magic items to the party, which can be a massive help if the DM is stingy with magic item rewards (and if they aren't, then it will free you up to grab specific infusions you don't have the magic items for yet).

(You could get a similar temp HP effect from a Twilight cleric, and the effect would be stronger. The downside is that they can't use it as much. The artificer can pretty much insure they have their turret up in every combat. Longevity and endurance is the key here. Anything you can defeat quickly wasn't really much of a threat anyway, it's the things that will take some time to whittle down that represent the greatest threat, as the party will run out of resources quickly. The temp HP also allows you to spend fewer resources on easier fights, allowing the party to conserve and save up for big fights.)

TL;DR, the Artificer acts as a multiplier to increase the effectiveness of the rest of the party, and while they're not as strong as a full caster, they're certainly no slouch. At the same time, they can also offer great contributions to the exploration side.

Paladin - The main reason to pick a paladin over other martial types is the aura that boosts everyone's saves. This combos nicely with the artificer handing out temp HP. Normally, clustering around the paladin and artificer would leave you vulnerable to an AoE attack, but the paladin's aura would boost everyone's saves, and the temp HP would take the edge off of the damage, likely resulting in a wash for the enemy. Despite being clustered up, it would actually make more sense for the enemy to focus on taking the party out one at a time, so they don't waste as much damage eating through temp HP. It's a really nice and effective combo. Smites also make the paladin effective for taking down single targets quickly, complementing the AoE spells of the rest of the party.

Out of combat, the paladin will have the best CHA, so they make the ideal face. With that in mind, it might make sense to take something like Skill Expert in order to maximize your social skills. Since the artificer can get infusions for STR-boosting items (though not until 10th level), the paladin doesn't need to worry about their STR as much. Paladins don't get much that contributes to the exploration pillar, but that's okay, because the rest of the party can collectively handle that.

If you do go for a necromancer wizard, then Oathbreaker probably makes the most sense. Otherwise, Conquest offers great control, and Ancients will wreck enemy mages (which might not be too common, but still, good to be prepared).

Wizard - Not really a lot to say on this one, as it's mostly self-evident. Wizards have the most expansive spell list, giving you access to basically everything except healing spells. Damage, AoE, control, support, utility, you name it. Best of all, you can prepare a different set any time, allowing you to adapt to whatever situation you're going into. Wizards have excellent support in both the combat and exploration pillars.

Again, I think Necromancer would probably work best, as one of the greatest weaknesses of adventuring parties is how few people they have. Any wizard can raise some skeletons, but a necromancer gets more of them, and stronger ones. Really, though, any wizard subclass should suffice, and I understand how playing a minion class can slow down the game.

Moon Druid - If it was just combat, a life cleric would be great, but clerics aren't really that good for exploration. A moon druid, however, can be effective in both combat and exploration, and because druids are less reliant on ability scores (and Moon druids even less so) you can also invest in some CHA to be a backup face. WIS also gives you good Insight, a critical face skill, and Animal Handling can be considered a type of face skill as well.

One of the critical exploration abilities is Wild Shape, especially since is allows you to merge your equipment into your form. This makes it a lot easier to sneak items into a place. It actually wouldn't be a bad idea for the druid to also get proficiency with thieves' tools, since they have more mobility than the artificer, allowing them to get to spots the artificer can't reach.

Basically, the moon druid is the wildcard that can fill any role. While they might not be as effective as someone dedicated to that role, they make good backups. Sometimes you need two people who can fill a role at the same time (e.g. if splitting the party), or the primary person in a role is down or otherwise unable to fill their role.

The end result of all of this is a party that is extremely tanky (though not as much as if they had a life cleric), but also has pretty good damage output, exploration spells and features, and a main face and backup face. Extremely versatile while also being extremely competent.

[Bobthewizard]

This party would be powerful for the 40% combat and 30% exploration, but how would you envision them handling the 30% social aspect of the campaign? On 27 point buy, druids are not known for high charisma.

You can always turn social encounters into combat ones by just failing your checks badly. :smallsmile:

Then kill them with your army of wolves.

[Slider Eclipse]

If I had to pick I'd go with

Armorer Artificer: The Tank/Supporter of the group, pick up Mobile ASAP and Prioritize on using the abilities of Booming Blade + Thunder Gauntlets to force key targets off your casters.

Moon Druid: Your Melee Character with some back up healing options. this guy can tank a ton of damage and deal just as much before ever touching any spells or even there actual HP.

Divine Soul Sorcerer: Your Healer/Control character. One can not overstate just how effective having multiple spell lists is.

Swords Bard: A Valuable Skill Monkey that can also do a lot of work assisting with Control/Healing/Support and even Damage making them very flexible.

As a bonus as some campaigns like to recommend Five Person Parties I'd throw in a Bladesinger Wizard for the final character as they have a lot of damage and decent defenses while still having the full power of a Wizard's spell list.

[yellowrocket]

Just for a different idea

Life cleric magic/healing

Zealot barbarian face smashing

Hexblade stabby stab and magic. Good times.

Alchemist artifacer buffs galore

Definitely not the traditionally optimized, but I'd love to hear where it's weaknesses are.

[Mastikator]

1 VHuman (warcaster feat) Cleric, Twillight Domain
2 Yuan-Ti Wizard Bladesinger
3 Satyr Moon Druid
4 Winged Tiefling Warlock Hexblade

Everyone has full spell casting potential, everyone has ranged and melee capabilities. And of course everyone is some kind of game breaking overpowered.

[Eldariel]

Ability scores are massively overrated for purposes of ability checks. after t1 proficiency tends to be more important than having a hugely high score anyway.

And of course, druids don't need, uh. Any ability scores. Forget SAD classes, the Druid is practically ZAD (zero-attribute dependent). It's very easy for a shepherds druid to just Conjure Animals and turn into a bear if there's any fear of getting hit so their physical stats tend not to be important (especially if they can get some kind of medium armor) and if they're focused on conjuring animals their wis mod doesn't come up that much. So you can just load up on CHA and then take a level of rogue.

But probably the optimal version here is something like 3 shepherds and a bard who poached crusader's mantle, or 3 shepherds and a paladin who can buff their saves.

I'm a bit surprised Shepherd gets rated so highly over Animate Dead users. Animate Dead doesn't cost Concentration, lasts 24 hours, and gives you solid ranged attacks and has a sweet combo with Magic Stone (stolen from Artificer) among other things. Certainly, Shepherd is great but still I'd generally consider one-two Conjure Animals users enough. Rest I'd want as ranged attackers (like

As for social, Druids already have Guidance and Enhance Ability (plus Charm Person). I wager 4 Druids would be more than fine on that front. One can even Skill Expertise for face skills. That said, I personally prefer having a Bard for save-buffing, spell stealing and still animating dead or summoning undead. It conveniently handles skill stuff fairly well too. And gives you a second Counterspeller, and someone who makes enemy grapple/escape/illusion detection/etc. attempts largely futile (which combines nicely with many summons).

[Hael]

My standard answer is Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Bard (Bladesinger/Shepherd/Twilight-or-Peace-or-Arcana/Lore) though on 13 specifically it's probably just 4 Wizards (e.g. Bladesinger/Chronurgist/Illusionist/Jorasco Transmuter) due to Simulacrum. Pally or Warlock is fine too but you largely get sufficient DPR and defenses plus everything else from spells so an extra list plus abilities tends to be favourable.

This is basically mine as well. You could swap Shepherd with Necromancer and pick up a Paladin for a variant take. Alternatively you could go for some sort of darkness only party (blindsight etc) that tends to faceroll most things.

But I mean basically summoners (necro/shepherd/oathbringer) provides more than enough party DPR. Bard is a greater skill monkey than Rogue and also provides a face. Bladesinger/abjurer/warmage will provide superior tanking relative to most full martials.. And of course Tashas clerics to break the game (Twilight at early lvls, Peace at late lvls).

[Kane0]

Mercy Monk, Redemption Paladin, Eloquence Bard, Peace Cleric.

The Anti-Murder Hobos.

[Eldariel]

This is basically mine as well. You could swap Shepherd with Necromancer and pick up a Paladin for a variant take. Alternatively you could go for some sort of darkness only party (blindsight etc) that tends to faceroll most things.

But I mean basically summoners (necro/shepherd/oathbringer) provides more than enough party DPR. Bard is a greater skill monkey than Rogue and also provides a face. Bladesinger/abjurer/warmage will provide superior tanking relative to most full martials.. And of course Tashas clerics to break the game (Twilight at early lvls, Peace at late lvls).

Blindsight/Alert party abusing Fog Cloud is also pretty great (and fairly easy to pull off with the standard Druid/Wizard/Cleric/Bard); can use Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics/Sleet Storm or Darkness defensively and trumps even Devil's Sight and Truesight. Not quite as strong as full Devil's Sight on the upside but even harder for enemies to reliably counter and one-sided disadvantage on enemies plus some characters having advantage (e.g. Moon Druid has a few good forms that have blindsight up to CR3 in Giant Constrictor Snake & Giant Scorpion plus plenty of options on CR1) and many being able to use spells that don't require sight (Wizard has a huge list of such and Cleric Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon both work normally provided you cast Spirit Guardians before the fog effect - also many types of Conjure Animals have Blindsight including the craziness that is CR 1/8 Flying Snake). All it takes is Alert for all characters (or some source of Blindsight), which just so happens to be an amazing feat anyways.

[strangebloke]

I'm a bit surprised Shepherd gets rated so highly over Animate Dead users. Animate Dead doesn't cost Concentration, lasts 24 hours, and gives you solid ranged attacks and has a sweet combo with Magic Stone (stolen from Artificer) among other things. Certainly, Shepherd is great but still I'd generally consider one-two Conjure Animals users enough. Rest I'd want as ranged attackers (like

The problem with animate dead is that its dependent on either having a lot of time to set up, or on not losing any skeletons over the course of an adventuring day, neither of which is terribly reliable. There's also potentially severe RP challenges this introduces (are you taking the skeleton gang into the diplomatic summit?) and some of the best applications for necromancers are hotly debated (like giving them armor and shields). Then too the skeletons are both evil and not very intelligent so there's further debates about what kinds of orders you can give them.

Beyond this, conjure animals also produces more bodies, provides magical attacks, and is (aside from lacking ranged attacks) a lot more flexible. The standard thing is to summon 8 wolves, but you can also summon 8 giant owls for example and airlift the whole party.

Basically on the high end necromancers win but on average druids win. IMO at least.

There's also stuff that becomes possible with an all-druid party like everyone turning into squirrels and infiltrating the enemy base.

[RogueJK]

Beyond this, conjure animals also... provides magical attacks

The attacks of animals summoned from Conjure Animals are not magical.

From the Sage Advice Compendium:

Is the damage dealt by a beast from conjure animals considered magical?

The stat block of a conjured creature determines the nature of the creature’s damage, unless the spell says otherwise.

The stat blocks of any of the conjurable beasts make no mention of their attacks being magical, and the spell text for Conjure Animals doesn't say otherwise.

In addition, the Shepherd Druid has a specific Mighty Summoner ability at 6th level that makes the attacks of their summoned creatures magical, which if all summoned creatures already had magical attacks, would render that moot. This is one of the major reasons why Shepherd Druids make the best summoners, since once you start fighting higher level enemies with resistance to nonmagical attacks, all of their summoned creatures can still contribute attack damage rather than just acting purely as meatshields to soak up damage and limit battlefield movement (and potentially grapple/etc.).




The standard thing is to summon 8 wolves, but you can also summon 8 giant owls for example and airlift the whole party.

You can summon 8x CR 1/4 creatures, and hope for owls for an airlift, but it's not guaranteed. The caster picks the amount/CR, but the DM picks the specific type of creature.

So no On Demand Giant Owl Taxi Service, unless your DM bends the rules to allow it.

From Sage Advice Compendium:

When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured?

A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples. Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from.

Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower

The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower. A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.

[strangebloke]

Not really. You can summon 8 creatures, and hope for owls for an airlift, but it's not guaranteed. The caster picks the CR/amount and the DM picks the type of creature.

So no On Demand Giant Owl Taxi Service, unless your DM bends the rules to allow it.

From Sage Advice Compendium:

True, though socially I've found this particular rule to be impractical at most tables.

"Well, I can just summon owls, I cast conjure animals"
"You get wolves"
"what?"
"Sage Advice Compendium says the DM chooses animals!"
"*sigh* mother may I have owls? Or at least have the spell back?"
"No, the rules are clear, you cast, then you get to ask what creatures you get. And then I may choose to give you that type of animal."

Overall I've seen this Sage Advice come up a lot less than various animate dead related issues.

[Bobthewizard]

The attacks of animals summoned from Conjure Animals are not magical.

...In addition, the Shepherd Druid has a specific Mighty Summoner ability at 6th level that makes the attacks of their summoned creatures magical

I think people were talking about using shepherd druids, hence the magical attacks.

[RogueJK]

Out of combat, the paladin will have the best CHA, so they make the ideal face.

Possibly, but not necessarily. Paladins are more MAD than many other classes, so may not be able to spare as high of a CHA as another class, if they're focusing their stats more on STR/CON. (And there are Paladin subclasses that do just fine with only a moderate CHA, like Vengeance.)

In your suggested party, the Moon Druid could be able to spare a higher CHA than the Paladin. Moon Druids are more SAD than Paladins, so it's easy to imagine a scenario where the Moon Druid may be able to afford a 16ish CHA while the Paladin might only be able to afford a 14ish. This is even more likely with certain races, if you had (for example) a Half Elf Moon Druid vs. a Variant Human Paladin.

[strangebloke]

I think people were talking about using shepherd druids, hence the magical attacks.

correct, I was unclear. I don't think conjure animals is nearly as favorable if comparing say, a spore druid's conjured animals to a spore druid's undead (though overall I'd favor the animals here for all the other reasons.)

[stoutstien]

An artillerist, celestial chain lock, clockwork sorcerer, and RK fighter. Complete redundant support across all 3 pillars of play with enough short and long rest resources to keep trucking regardless how tough it gets.

Only thing really missing is Nova damage but frankly I think it's overrated past a certain point.

[KorvinStarmast]

Possibly, but not necessarily. Paladins are more MAD than many other classes, so may not be able to spare as high of a CHA as another class, if they're focusing their stats more on STR/CON. (And there are Paladin subclasses that do just fine with only a moderate CHA, like Vengeance.) Our first 5e party had a Vengeance paladin. His Charisma never got above 11 where it started. I asked if he was going to boost it to 12 when he got an ASI at 8, and his observation in re spells was "I use them for smites". Which he did. No saving throw boost for us, but the game went dormant at level 7 due to RL anyway, so we never got to find out if he'd change his mind.

As to the Char boosted Druid: half elf druid. Start with a 10, boost it to 12, and get proficiency in a skill like persuasion or performance.

[Ogre Mage]

It has been some time since a thread like this was done and a fair amount of material has been published in the last two years -- most notably Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. I was interested to see what newly published material would show up (multiple times) in the thread alongside the "top tier" stuff we've known about for a long time. Based on the responses, it looks like the following new (sub)classes have impacted the party optimization meta:

Twilight Domain Cleric
Peace Domain Cleric
Artificer (various)
Eloquence Bard
Chronurgy Wizard
Clockwork Soul Sorcerer


I also thought the bard, paladin and wizard stood out. I wasn't surprised to see them mentioned frequently -- they have been popular optimization options since the start of 5E. But I noticed a wide variety of their subclasses mentioned, with some people making comments like "any paladin" or "any wizard." That suggests people feel there is good parity among their subclasses besides being a strong base class overall. Contrast that with the druid -- it was the same two subclasses, moon and shepherd, always being mentioned. That said, the perpetual presence of those two druid subclasses in the thread was also notable.

[strangebloke]

I also thought the bard, paladin and wizard stood out. I wasn't surprised to see them mentioned frequently -- they have been popular optimization options since the start of 5E. But I noticed a wide variety of their subclasses mentioned, with some people making comments like "any paladin" or "any wizard." That suggests people feel there is good parity among their subclasses besides being a strong base class overall. Contrast that with the druid -- it was the same two subclasses, moon and shepherd, always being mentioned. That said, the perpetual presence of those two druid subclasses in the thread was also notable.

A lot of times it isn't so much that there's parity but that people are honestly really lazy in these kinds of talks. Which tbf its pretty much entirely dependent on what the average adventuring day looks like at the table.

[TyGuy]

A lot of times it isn't so much that there's parity but that people are honestly really lazy in these kinds of talks. Which tbf its pretty much entirely dependent on what the average adventuring day looks like at the table.
Huh. I was thinking that it was the laziness of throwing the top S-tier picks in a blender with a disregard for the OP criteria that strengthened the argument that some classes have blatantly obvious S+ picks that stand above the other options while others require too much parsing to be bothered.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

For a social/skill heavy campaign I would say 2 bards and 2 rogues.

For combat heavy 4 druids or clerics or monks can do a lot.

I guess paladin can also work by they lack range options.

[Hael]

Huh. I was thinking that it was the laziness of throwing the top S-tier picks in a blender with a disregard for the OP criteria that strengthened the argument that some classes have blatantly obvious S+ picks that stand above the other options while others require too much parsing to be bothered.

Past a certain point of optimization parties are going to basically autoclear any challenge put in front of them, certainly any published material. There are many such groupings, and differentiating between them is a hard thing to do. How do you win more? What criteria would you use?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Four Shepard Druids.

Oh combat would take forever and a day but it would WORK.

I'd take at least one of these for sure, as this was the only character I've ever DM'd that was clearly broken.
2nd character could be another Shepherd or one of the new broken Clerics
3rd I'd still have a Paladin to pump Chr Aura to +5
4th Some kind of wizard to fill in any gaps in spell casting. The party I did DM with the Shepherd did have both a Cleric (not a new one) and a Paladin, but there were a couple of times the absence of a Wizard was notable.

[Asmotherion]

Aberant Mind Sorcerer with Eldritch Adept (Agonising Blast) and Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast, Hex, Magic Stone), Human Variant. (Main DPT + Full Caster)
Abjurer Wizard. (Reduces Damage Taken + Full Caster)
College of Eloquence Bard. (Party Face, Skill Monkey + Full caster)
Moon Druid (Main Tank+Full Caster+Healer)

[RogueJK]

Aberant Mind Sorcerer with Eldritch Adept (Agonising Blast) and Magic Initiate (Eldritch Blast, Hex, Magic Stone)

You can't get Agonizing Blast from Eldritch Adept. Eldritch Adept states that "if the invocation has a prerequisite, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock and only if you meet the prerequisite."

Agonizing Blast has a listed prerequisite of "Eldritch Blast cantrip". Gaining that cantrip from Magic Initiate doesn't count for Eldritch Adept purposes. You'd need to have gained Eldritch Blast from Warlock levels in order to meet that prerequisite for Eldritch Adept purposes.

[Asmotherion]

You can't get Agonizing Blast from Eldritch Adept. Eldritch Adept states that "if the invocation has a prerequisite, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock and only if you meet the prerequisite."

Agonizing Blast has a listed prerequisite of "Eldritch Blast cantrip". Gaining that cantrip from Magic Initiate doesn't count for Eldritch Adept purposes. You'd need to have gained Eldritch Blast from Warlock levels in order to meet that prerequisite for Eldritch Adept purposes.

Too bad I guess. :/

Gaining the cantrip does kinda meet the prerequisite, but the fact they specify you need to be a Warlock is a dealbreaker. Never noticed it in the book, was there an errata on it or something?

[kore]

Too bad I guess. :/

Gaining the cantrip does kinda meet the prerequisite, but the fact they specify you need to be a Warlock is a dealbreaker. Never noticed it in the book, was there an errata on it or something?

No, it's always been that way:

If the invocation has a prerequisite of any kind, you can choose that invocation only if you’re a warlock who meets the prerequisite.