My players are being too smart, I need to slow them down while still being fair

[Puke]

Hello,

one of my players recently acquired this :

These sinister rings are always created in sees of six: one master ring and five servant rings.

Master Ring: The wearer can use detect thoughts at will against anyone wearing a servant ring created in conjunction with that master ring.

Servant Ring: This ring is considered a cursed item and cannot be removed except by a remove curse spell. It functions exactly like an amulet of inescapable location, with the following additional properties. While wearing this ring, the wearer is not permitted a saving throw against the detect thoughts ability of the master ring. When donned, and each tenday thereafter, the ring exerts a dominate person effect upon the wearer, granting control to the wearer of the master ring. The dominate person effect ends if the ring is removed.
Moderate enchantment; CL 10th; Forge Ring, bestow curse, detect thoughts, dominate person; Price 120,000 gp (master ring and five servant rings).
Source: Underdark

In the current setting, all the gods have just been demoted. The god of magic has been destroyed. The spellplague is starting to appear.

The players are lvl 23 to 26, one of them, the owner of the rings, is a lich.
They are using a very clever trick : they render themselves invisible, or use the ethereal plane to infiltrate ennemie's fortresses, and put the ring on the finger of the leader of the fort. Hence taking of the forts from within.

They are fighting the Empire of Men (picture the Roman empire with a twist : they hate religion and tried to elevate the emperor to the status of a god, but the players destroyed the tablets of fate, demoting all the gods at the same time and preventing anyone from raising to godhood until the overgod, currently locked in a prison, as he was put here by an alliance formed of mortals and major gods at the time).

The Empire of Men is very reluctent to use magic. They worship the emperor as a god. But the fact the tablets of fate have been destroyed reduced the power of any god or godlike entity to the power of its avatar.

The leaders of the Empire have a very strong willpower and can inspire people. But I do not see, in the description of the item, any way to stop the players from using this trick.

If you have any idea, regarding a rule, or a clever story outcome that would help me, please share :D.

Additionnal information :
- Most magic does not work anymore, unless used by a character with a high caster level, as there is no Weave anymore to sustain the use of spells, casters must draw magic directly from the environment.
- The magic holding the overgod is made of Mythals, and I stated Mythals are mostly unaffected by the fact there is no more Weave. But they could start to feeble.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Your players are epic. If their opponents can't even see invisibility, then there is no way they'll be able to defend themselves. NPCs should not only be warriors, or high level fighters, especially leaders of forts. Also, they are not dumb themselves. They can see that other forts are being taken over without a fight and know that the party is somehow able to use magic, and that they could have used some sort of mind control magic to enthrall the leaders of the forts. They will be prepared. Trained Ethereal Filchers in the ethereal to ambush the player. Dead magic zones. Traps in the leader's room so that the player gets zapped when they enter. Walls made of riverin (that blocks ethereal travel, if I recall). Or simply some dust in the air so that the Empire can se invisibility in some rooms. Use traps so that they won't be able to teleport out of it. (For example, they hate magic, but what about psionics? Couldn't they use a triggered null psionics field to prevent any escape from the lich?) The point is, next time they do that, they won't get out of it alive. They are at epic level, this should not be extremely hard for them to resurrect the lich (if you don't bind the body, the lich will just regenerate on its own). But they will leave the rings there, and it will force them to find another way. If you want to be extra sure that you're fair, have an NPC tell them something along the line of "Have you heard? Someone started infiltrated all the Empire's fortress. They will probably prepare for this kind of intrusion in the future.", and let them take things to their logical conclusion. If they do it nonetheless, then they will die. Simple as that, and death isn't that hard a penalty at level 23. It's not the spirit of the game to split the party and have one player do something on their own, there are always too many ways to shut them down.

[Puke]

Your players are epic. If their opponents can't even see invisibility, then there is no way they'll be able to defend themselves. NPCs should not only be warriors, or high level fighters, especially leaders of forts. Also, they are not dumb themselves. They can see that other forts are being taken over without a fight and know that the party is somehow able to use magic, and that they could have used some sort of mind control magic to enthrall the leaders of the forts. They will be prepared. Trained Ethereal Filchers in the ethereal to ambush the player. Dead magic zones. Traps in the leader's room so that the player gets zapped when they enter. Walls made of riverin (that blocks ethereal travel, if I recall). Or simply some dust in the air so that the Empire can se invisibility in some rooms. Use traps so that they won't be able to teleport out of it. (For example, they hate magic, but what about psionics? Couldn't they use a triggered null psionics field to prevent any escape from the lich?) The point is, next time they do that, they won't get out of it alive. They are at epic level, this should not be extremely hard for them to resurrect the lich (if you don't bind the body, the lich will just regenerate on its own). But they will leave the rings there, and it will force them to find another way. If you want to be extra sure that you're fair, have an NPC tell them something along the line of "Have you heard? Someone started infiltrated all the Empire's fortress. They will probably prepare for this kind of intrusion in the future.", and let them take things to their logical conclusion. If they do it nonetheless, then they will die. Simple as that, and death isn't that hard a penalty at level 23. It's not the spirit of the game to split the party and have one player do something on their own, there are always too many ways to shut them down.

Thanks for your answer !

One of the races serving the Empire can see invisibility. I'm using it right now, but they encountered these guys several times and now are successful in avoiding them.
I did not know about Riverin, thank you !

Yeah they all can easily come back to life, except one, who is a demigod, for who death means death cuz once you've got divine HD, you cannot be resurrected (I don't know if this is in the rules or if I made it up, but it's how I balance the fact divine HD gives you a whole lot of bonuses completely broken).

I have never used psionics, I don't know how it works at all.

Since they let someone escape the battle, the Empire has been tipped about what is going on. They do not know about the details, but they are aware of magic users using powerful magic to infiltrate the forts.

[Xervous]

Q: what happens when the finger with the ring is cut off?

[Tzardok]

Yeah they all can easily come back to life, except one, who is a demigod, for who death means death cuz once you've got divine HD, you cannot be resurrected (I don't know if this is in the rules or if I made it up, but it's how I balance the fact divine HD gives you a whole lot of bonuses completely broken).

There aren't any rules that allow raising deities. Fluffwise it requires some kind of very specific and unique ritual (see Bane's two tries at resurrection, or Orcus' attempt in Dead Gods).


I have never used psionics, I don't know how it works at all.

Psionics isn't that difficult. Technically it's just a casting system using mana points instead of spell slots. Each spell ("power") uses a specific amount of power points. Unlike spells, powers usually don't automatically become better with growing caster ("manifester") level. Instead many powers allow you to pay additional power points to improve them. That's also how metamagic ("metapsionics") work. The maximum amount of power points you can pay at once is equal to our manifester level.
And that's it. Everything else are minor details, like just having six schools ("disciplines").

Fluffwise psionics are a purely internal power and shouldn't be affected by the spell plague or dead magic zones, making it more reliable in the setting you describe and propably more attractive to the Empire.

[Puke]

Q: what happens when the finger with the ring is cut off?

"The dominate person effect ends if the ring is removed."

[Goaty14]

What does the commander do once they are dominated?

Remember that it's only a DC 15 Sense Motive check to notice someone is under a domination effect. If they're using the puppet-leader to give orders or do pretty much anything, they'll be noticed as under the effect of magic a good 25% of the time, more if the NPCs have adequate Wisdom or actual Sense Motive ranks.

If you assume even a modicum of intelligence to the humans, then they'll have the wit to overthrow their "leader", toss him in the dungeon (until his magical mental control has passed), and install the second-in-command as their leader temporarily. The PCs have cut off the head, but they are fighting a metaphorical Hydra - it will continue stabilizing its leadership until it bleeds to the ground..

If you assume that they're paranoid as heck from the goshdang magic users, then they may even go further as to (for example):
-Execute the possessed leader, it's the only way to be sure.
-Introduce a captured magic user/secret organization comprised of "reformed" magic users to play a role in interrogating their "leader" (who plays a part using Detect Magic and similar divination to find out more). Yeah, whoops, most magic doesn't work anymore. Is there any way for a workaround? Maybe some kind of ritual involving drawing energy from animals/monsters/precious gems to achieve a similar effect to spells. The human empire has to have some amount of tricks of their own (as Beni mentioned), to be an adequate challenge.
-Notice the ring that wasn't-there-before. What does it look like? Are the servant rings very fancy and obviously magical, or just plain gold rings? Amputating the finger, as mentioned, is an option, which would break the curse, and leave the PCs with one less ring, which could be destroyed by the humans, or put into a high-security containment to bar further corruption, leaving the PCs to realize that their tactics are not foolproof, and decide if the extra ring is worth the extra challenge.

Also, since magic is drawn from the environment instead of the weave, are you pointing this out to your players? Whenever they cast a spell, does it blacken and wither the surrounding terrain, Dark-Sun-style? Perhaps the humans should notice this too - a dead giveaway of magic that even Invisibility cannot hide...

+1 to the idea of using Psionic Humans. If you decide that alternative-magic-systems are still affected by the Spellplague and et-al (kinda hurts immersion if spellcasters lose all their power, but these funky brain magic people don't, imo), then have you considered the idea that when Psionics "draws magic from yourself", you could substitute the caster's power point pool with their Hit Points?
I don't know, I just like the idea of mechanically supported "accursed ones" - strange and mystic magic users that all wear darkened robes to hide the numerous scars from their rigorous and strict training... :smallamused:

[Gnaeus]

This seems like taking extra steps just for the Sauron theme. A level 26 lich who can sneak into a fort and put a ring on someone’s finger could just dominate the person themselves. Or kill them and replace them with a duplicate (via any of several methods) which won’t be recognized with a DC 15 sense motive. Or kill everyone in the fort and polymorph the livestock into new people. Or mindrape them. Or put on a helm of opposite alignment. Or diplomance them. Or bluff them that the emperor has been replaced by a demon and the party is the rightful heir to the empire. The average fort is radically unlikely to be able to stop a single epic character, let alone a party of them, if their plan is to walk in the front door unbuffed and say “hey peons! This is my castle now! Please kneel and prepare your loyalty oaths or die”

My advice? A fort is not an obstacle or much of an asset to an epic caster. If they want to seize forts, let them seize forts. The only relevant threat to an epic caster is another epic caster or a monster or other PC duplicating the power of an epic caster.

So figure out who the epic types are in the empire, what they are doing, and let the PCs take forts until their plans intersect.

[Puke]

What does the commander do once they are dominated?

Remember that it's only a DC 15 Sense Motive check to notice someone is under a domination effect. If they're using the puppet-leader to give orders or do pretty much anything, they'll be noticed as under the effect of magic a good 25% of the time, more if the NPCs have adequate Wisdom or actual Sense Motive ranks.

If you assume even a modicum of intelligence to the humans, then they'll have the wit to overthrow their "leader", toss him in the dungeon (until his magical mental control has passed), and install the second-in-command as their leader temporarily. The PCs have cut off the head, but they are fighting a metaphorical Hydra - it will continue stabilizing its leadership until it bleeds to the ground..

If you assume that they're paranoid as heck from the goshdang magic users, then they may even go further as to (for example):
-Execute the possessed leader, it's the only way to be sure.
-Introduce a captured magic user/secret organization comprised of "reformed" magic users to play a role in interrogating their "leader" (who plays a part using Detect Magic and similar divination to find out more). Yeah, whoops, most magic doesn't work anymore. Is there any way for a workaround? Maybe some kind of ritual involving drawing energy from animals/monsters/precious gems to achieve a similar effect to spells. The human empire has to have some amount of tricks of their own (as Beni mentioned), to be an adequate challenge.
-Notice the ring that wasn't-there-before. What does it look like? Are the servant rings very fancy and obviously magical, or just plain gold rings? Amputating the finger, as mentioned, is an option, which would break the curse, and leave the PCs with one less ring, which could be destroyed by the humans, or put into a high-security containment to bar further corruption, leaving the PCs to realize that their tactics are not foolproof, and decide if the extra ring is worth the extra challenge.

Also, since magic is drawn from the environment instead of the weave, are you pointing this out to your players? Whenever they cast a spell, does it blacken and wither the surrounding terrain, Dark-Sun-style? Perhaps the humans should notice this too - a dead giveaway of magic that even Invisibility cannot hide...

+1 to the idea of using Psionic Humans. If you decide that alternative-magic-systems are still affected by the Spellplague and et-al (kinda hurts immersion if spellcasters lose all their power, but these funky brain magic people don't, imo), then have you considered the idea that when Psionics "draws magic from yourself", you could substitute the caster's power point pool with their Hit Points?
I don't know, I just like the idea of mechanically supported "accursed ones" - strange and mystic magic users that all wear darkened robes to hide the numerous scars from their rigorous and strict training... :smallamused:

I already used something like that. I incorporated Planeswalkers from MTG since they released a book merging MTG's universe with D&D. The planeswalkers use "mana points" and draw magic directly from the environment. Each time a spell is used, it leaves a mark on the ground, a mark of spellplague and corrupted magic. So yeah that could work. Some guys from the Empire would still need to see it with their own eyes however, and be capable of understanding what is going on.

Your suggestion regarding using the lifeforce of the magic user is good. In this world, the PCs know that without the weave, a magic user can use its own Hit Points to power its magical abilities. We used it month ago and I completely forgot about it, I must admit, but this could be a very good way to give the Empire a little boost in power, since their magic users are basically mindless fanatics, they would not mind taping into their own life force to defend what they believe in.

The ring is very much visible since the PC did not order their victims to conceal it in any way. So anyone with the ability to see magic would notice the ring.

The ritual thingy would work. The Empire is known to be able to harvest magic in a variety of manners, including pumping it directly from natural "magic wells".

If a sense motive check works, then most of the trained troops of the Empire will figure out what is going on. Until now, the PCs have encountered untrained soldiers, and enslaved people who would not care much about their leader being corrupted. So the fact the next fort notices a difference would not be a surprise for them if I state this fort has better trained troops.





This seems like taking extra steps just for the Sauron theme. A level 26 lich who can sneak into a fort and put a ring on someone’s finger could just dominate the person themselves. Or kill them and replace them with a duplicate (via any of several methods) which won’t be recognized with a DC 15 sense motive. Or kill everyone in the fort and polymorph the livestock into new people. Or mindrape them. Or put on a helm of opposite alignment. Or diplomance them. Or bluff them that the emperor has been replaced by a demon and the party is the rightful heir to the empire. The average fort is radically unlikely to be able to stop a single epic character, let alone a party of them, if their plan is to walk in the front door unbuffed and say “hey peons! This is my castle now! Please kneel and prepare your loyalty oaths or die”

My advice? A fort is not an obstacle or much of an asset to an epic caster. If they want to seize forts, let them seize forts. The only relevant threat to an epic caster is another epic caster or a monster or other PC duplicating the power of an epic caster.

So figure out who the epic types are in the empire, what they are doing, and let the PCs take forts until their plans intersect.

I completely agree to this. I want my players to feel powerful. They were, until the last session, quite reluctant to use such methods. They thought they would encounter some challenge while I stated several times they were amon the 20 most powerful people on this planet. They were afraid because they met some really powerful NPCs and they were like "DM, you told us we are really strong, and magic is not really a thing in this world, but yet we encounter strong characters capable of magic".
I pointed out that being that powerful, they do attract epic characters, drawn to them because of what they do and what they are.

The thing is, I really want them to encourage clever solutions to their problems. That's why I want to balance things out a little while being fair to them. I do not want to punish them for being clever. So far, they missed out a lot of opportunities to do epic stuff like wiping out an entire city while they could have, because they did not realize how powerful they are. It's really hard, IMO to find the good balance between "well you are epic, you can faceroll 90% of the stuff" and "well you are epic, but this, guys, might just be a challenge for you".

I want them to be able to seize some forts, but I also want them to remain creative and face a little bit of increasing challenge. So they still have fun. It will become boring very quickly if they never face resistance.

The Emperor mounted a rebellion in order to kill the ancient gods. He united the whole mankind under his banner to rebel against 6 gods who were ordering their followers to fight one another. Humans grew tired of this and rebelled. So the emperor is supposed to be smart enough to trick gods.

On one hand, I find it very credible the epic players are able to seize forts because the Empire is overconfident, on the other hand, I want the Empire to learn from its demizes and be able to slow the PCs down in their progress, and not fall for the same trick over and over again.

If I follow your advice, the Epic in the Empire are as follows :

- Some High Elves loyal to the Empire of Men, capable of great magic, even without the weave to support them (kinda like the High Elves from Moonshae islands).
- An ancient breed of immortal humans called the Ancient Ones, capables of seing invisibility. One of them was present in the last fort they took over. He saw the ring at the General's hand and chose to carry on the orders of the general and leave the fort in order to tell the other Empire's leaders what is happening. So the Empire would have the intel.

I'll still need to justify the appearance of epic NPCs in a world where most of them are supposed to have been destroyed.
But maybe I could state the Empire successfuly dominated some epic creatures...

[Talwar]

I'd expect that the Empire would eventually clue in that its fort commanders are being subverted and issue standing orders along the lines of, "If Dave starts acting weird one day, he's relieved of duty and Sue's in charge instead."

Then the Empire could say, "If the PCs are targeting fort commanders, we need to set up a trap for the next time they try this." Not that I have any real idea how a bunch of mundane mooks are going to successfully execute a trap against Epic-level PCs.

Or the Empire could try to put a decoy in place of the actual fort commander, so Private Bill happens to get the ring slipped on while he snoozes in the general's quarters and then doesn't have much recourse when the General orders his finger cut off the next morning.

But I guess the real question is, what is the Empire doing about repairing/replacing those Tablets of Fate while the Party is bopping around taking over forts? What are those demoted gods doing about those pesky PCs who cost them their divinity? What other external forces, if any, are saying, "Hey, this place just lost all its magic, we should totally launch our own invasion of the place now, hey?"

On the other hand, it kind of sounds like the party wants a cake-walk and might not react well to having genuinely threatening competition, so I dunno.

[Toliudar]

+1 to the challenge of having the dominated leaders not be detected and removed immediately. Followed immediately by smashing the offending ring with a Big Hammer.

Another tactic: the leaders start to have someone else disguised as them sleep in their beds. So the magic ring goes on (and stays on thanks to the curse), but it's on the valet with no real power.

[rel]

I'm failing to see the problem here.

The result isn't that impressive; If they can trivially sneak into an enemy fortress and put a ring on the leader they can trivially do a lot of things to said leader and said fortress anyway.

The efficacy is dubious; Even if they have perfect control over the leader, all the leaders subordinates will realise something is wrong in short order, and take steps to correct the problem. Steps which likely result in the players swanky new ring of power getting thrown into Mount Doom.

The endgame is suspect; Assuming everything goes to plan and the PC's deploy the full set of rings successfully, they've taken control of 5 groups that couldn't defend against invisibility, a level 2 spell. As an epic level party.

How does any of this get them more resources than taking an afternoon to conquer the barbarian horde located immediately to the left of the empire?

[Crake]

I'm failing to see the problem here.

The result isn't that impressive; If they can trivially sneak into an enemy fortress and put a ring on the leader they can trivially do a lot of things to said leader and said fortress anyway.

The efficacy is dubious; Even if they have perfect control over the leader, all the leaders subordinates will realise something is wrong in short order, and take steps to correct the problem. Steps which likely result in the players swanky new ring of power getting thrown into Mount Doom.

The endgame is suspect; Assuming everything goes to plan and the PC's deploy the full set of rings successfully, they've taken control of 5 groups that couldn't defend against invisibility, a level 2 spell. As an epic level party.

How does any of this get them more resources than taking an afternoon to conquer the barbarian horde located immediately to the left of the empire?

Yeah, this whole thing just feels like epic level players doing sub-epic things. They could honestly just have easily actually just CAST dominate on the leader, and it would probably be more effective, because the players probably have a higher dispel DC than the ring's dominate effect (which by the way is totally dispellable, the ring isn't a permanent dominate effect, it's a 1/tenday effect, which repeats, and thus can just simply be dispelled each time it's applied).

[Puke]

I'd expect that the Empire would eventually clue in that its fort commanders are being subverted and issue standing orders along the lines of, "If Dave starts acting weird one day, he's relieved of duty and Sue's in charge instead."

Then the Empire could say, "If the PCs are targeting fort commanders, we need to set up a trap for the next time they try this." Not that I have any real idea how a bunch of mundane mooks are going to successfully execute a trap against Epic-level PCs.

Or the Empire could try to put a decoy in place of the actual fort commander, so Private Bill happens to get the ring slipped on while he snoozes in the general's quarters and then doesn't have much recourse when the General orders his finger cut off the next morning.

But I guess the real question is, what is the Empire doing about repairing/replacing those Tablets of Fate while the Party is bopping around taking over forts? What are those demoted gods doing about those pesky PCs who cost them their divinity? What other external forces, if any, are saying, "Hey, this place just lost all its magic, we should totally launch our own invasion of the place now, hey?"

On the other hand, it kind of sounds like the party wants a cake-walk and might not react well to having genuinely threatening competition, so I dunno.

The decoy is a good idea. It would work and seems legit to me.

The Empire has no mean to replace the tablets of fate. They work the same as the tablets of fate in the forgotten realms setting. The overgod made the tablets with the name of the gods and their roles. The Empire stole the tablets and started writing over it (it took years to even start to erase some names from the tablets, using the strongest ritual they could design) and the party stole the tablets and gave it back to the overgod in its prison and asked him to repair them so the power of the last remaining gods would be restored. Then the overgod dropped the tablets, destroying them, while saying "well, you don't want to free me ? enjoy a world without gods".

The two remaining gods are the god of death and shade and the god of life and light. The god of death used the party in the past to do its bidding, and is now busy trying to lead the souls of the dying into their next world. Which is a chore because she has not as much power as she used to, and she cannot do anything else because if she stops... well... people will be stuck between life and death.

The god of light and life was almost destroyed by the Empire, who chose to erase its name first from the tablets. So loosing his divine domain and being cast to the material plane as an avatar was actually a relief for him, since he was about to be destroyed. He will seek to restore his power. At the moment, he is gathering an army of faithful to serve him and... enlighten the world.

Thank you for asking about external forces ! They are here ! Demons and Devils are aware of the changes. They still can use their magic, since it does not rely on the weave. They are leaving the Hells and the Abysses one by one and start invading the prime material plane. I am yet to decide where they will strike first. But the most logical would be, IMO, that they strike the weakest opponents first in order to gain more power.

The party indeed wants to enjoy its epic status. They want to feel powerful. They sometimes bitch about some unexpected challenges that's why I'm asking here for help, because I want to challenge them in a way that feels OK for me and them. I'm 100% with them when they want to wipe out entire towns because well **** they can, but I want the consequences to catch up on them in a way they feel "it's on us if this happens". Thank for your ideas :)



Yeah, this whole thing just feels like epic level players doing sub-epic things. They could honestly just have easily actually just CAST dominate on the leader, and it would probably be more effective, because the players probably have a higher dispel DC than the ring's dominate effect (which by the way is totally dispellable, the ring isn't a permanent dominate effect, it's a 1/tenday effect, which repeats, and thus can just simply be dispelled each time it's applied).

I assumed the target was not permitted a saving throw against the dominate person effect. Since its a "dominate person effect" and therefore not a "dominate person spell".

So yes this is dispellable, I guess, but correct me if I'm wrong : you are not allowed a saving throw.

[Puke]

I'm failing to see the problem here.

The result isn't that impressive; If they can trivially sneak into an enemy fortress and put a ring on the leader they can trivially do a lot of things to said leader and said fortress anyway.

The efficacy is dubious; Even if they have perfect control over the leader, all the leaders subordinates will realise something is wrong in short order, and take steps to correct the problem. Steps which likely result in the players swanky new ring of power getting thrown into Mount Doom.

The endgame is suspect; Assuming everything goes to plan and the PC's deploy the full set of rings successfully, they've taken control of 5 groups that couldn't defend against invisibility, a level 2 spell. As an epic level party.

How does any of this get them more resources than taking an afternoon to conquer the barbarian horde located immediately to the left of the empire?

You are right !

They do not use only invisibility. They also use Etherealness.

Yes they are doing things that are easy for them at the moment. There is no real problem right now. But this campaign is really complex.
I'm ok with the fact some EPIC PCs can do amazing things, that's why we are running this campaign in the first place.

But I'm gathering ideas on how their ennemies could learn to defend against them.

The roles are reversed here. We, as DMs, often put our players in the "save the world" position, where they need to beat the BBEG while they are far from being powerful enough to do so. But they always find means to do it : leveling up, making alliances, sharing informations with more powerful characters (NPC) etc...
This time, the NPCs want to save the world. The question is : how can they learn how to defend against these epic characters step by step, using mostly conventional means that feels credible.

Epic challenges awaits the party in a later time. In the meantime, I'm not sure I'm good enough at DMing to provide enough fun for the players. That's why I turn to you guys for ideas.
The point is I do not want to block them for doing what they want. But I want them to feel their enemy is learning, and is becoming tougher.

TBH it's hard to be fair as a dungeon master and it's easy to screw your players in a way that does not feel legit.

[Crake]

They do not use only invisibility. They also use Etherealness.

See Invisibility allows you to see ethereal creatures: "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible."


I assumed the target was not permitted a saving throw against the dominate person effect. Since its a "dominate person effect" and therefore not a "dominate person spell".

So yes this is dispellable, I guess, but correct me if I'm wrong : you are not allowed a saving throw.

Sure I guess, but an epic level character should be easily able to stack enough debuffs on a helpless opponent to make success on anything other than a natural 20 rather easily.

In all honesty, they would probably be better off making an Ice assassin of the person they want to take control of and just use that as a puppet instead, since, as noted earlier, it's trivially easy to notice someone's under the effects of dominate magic, wheras an Ice assassin is much more competent as a duplicate.

[noob]

Hello,

one of my players recently acquired this :

These sinister rings are always created in sees of six: one master ring and five servant rings.

Master Ring: The wearer can use detect thoughts at will against anyone wearing a servant ring created in conjunction with that master ring.

Servant Ring: This ring is considered a cursed item and cannot be removed except by a remove curse spell. It functions exactly like an amulet of inescapable location, with the following additional properties. While wearing this ring, the wearer is not permitted a saving throw against the detect thoughts ability of the master ring. When donned, and each tenday thereafter, the ring exerts a dominate person effect upon the wearer, granting control to the wearer of the master ring. The dominate person effect ends if the ring is removed.
Moderate enchantment; CL 10th; Forge Ring, bestow curse, detect thoughts, dominate person; Price 120,000 gp (master ring and five servant rings).
Source: Underdark

In the current setting, all the gods have just been demoted. The god of magic has been destroyed. The spellplague is starting to appear.

The players are lvl 23 to 26, one of them, the owner of the rings, is a lich.
They are using a very clever trick : they render themselves invisible, or use the ethereal plane to infiltrate ennemie's fortresses, and put the ring on the finger of the leader of the fort. Hence taking of the forts from within.

They are fighting the Empire of Men (picture the Roman empire with a twist : they hate religion and tried to elevate the emperor to the status of a god, but the players destroyed the tablets of fate, demoting all the gods at the same time and preventing anyone from raising to godhood until the overgod, currently locked in a prison, as he was put here by an alliance formed of mortals and major gods at the time).

The Empire of Men is very reluctent to use magic. They worship the emperor as a god. But the fact the tablets of fate have been destroyed reduced the power of any god or godlike entity to the power of its avatar.

The leaders of the Empire have a very strong willpower and can inspire people. But I do not see, in the description of the item, any way to stop the players from using this trick.

If you have any idea, regarding a rule, or a clever story outcome that would help me, please share :D.

Additionnal information :
- Most magic does not work anymore, unless used by a character with a high caster level, as there is no Weave anymore to sustain the use of spells, casters must draw magic directly from the environment.
- The magic holding the overgod is made of Mythals, and I stated Mythals are mostly unaffected by the fact there is no more Weave. But they could start to feeble.

Just introduce the following twist: the emperor is not of the humanoid type and thus is immune to dominate person.(still can be dominated with dominate monster)

[Puke]

See Invisibility allows you to see ethereal creatures: "You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible."



Sure I guess, but an epic level character should be easily able to stack enough debuffs on a helpless opponent to make success on anything other than a natural 20 rather easily.

In all honesty, they would probably be better off making an Ice assassin of the person they want to take control of and just use that as a puppet instead, since, as noted earlier, it's trivially easy to notice someone's under the effects of dominate magic, wheras an Ice assassin is much more competent as a duplicate.

Noice. I did not remember "see invisibility" worked with way.

[Gnaeus]

In all honesty, they would probably be better off making an Ice assassin of the person they want to take control of and just use that as a puppet instead, since, as noted earlier, it's trivially easy to notice someone's under the effects of dominate magic, wheras an Ice assassin is much more competent as a duplicate.

I didn’t specifically mention Ice Assassin because it’s so abusable. But there are plenty of intermediate steps less detectable than dominate and less broken than ice assassin (although this does seem like the kind of intended, least broken way to use that spell). Stuff like recruiting or making doppelgängers, or recruiting rogue types and providing magical disguises, or straight up murdering the commander, raising them as undead under the lich’s control, then disguising them as living.

[Crake]

I didn’t specifically mention Ice Assassin because it’s so abusable. But there are plenty of intermediate steps less detectable than dominate and less broken than ice assassin (although this does seem like the kind of intended, least broken way to use that spell). Stuff like recruiting or making doppelgängers, or recruiting rogue types and providing magical disguises, or straight up murdering the commander, raising them as undead under the lich’s control, then disguising them as living.

That's pretty much why I actually suggested it, this is like, exactly the sort of situation the spell was designed for.

[aglondier]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to use the rules for arcane spellcasting from Dark Sun. Uncontrolled spellcasting drains life out of the environment...and is addictive...

[JoeNapalm]

A solution to the scenario (which, as stated above, is a Lich barely stretching their legs) would be to think laterally.

Your Empire is indeed screwed -- just as Men were vs Sauron -- without the intervention of more powerful beings.

If you have a PC Lich stomping around, the most obvious question to me is "Where are the HEROES that hate Undead?"

You Empire might be strong with magic, but they probably have money.

You, sir, need a Dr. Van Helsing. Some nasty Paladins. Perhaps an order of Monks dedicated to keeping the dead in the dirt where they belong.

Also, all this traipsing around in the Ether -- the Ethereal isn't empty. Things live there. Some of them are pretty. Some of them are not. Sometimes there's shadowy horrible mind-shattering creatures of horror. Some of them think Liches are crunchy and go well with ketchup. All this stomping around would stir things up.

The Gods many be dead, but Death Slaadi don't care. Githyanki and Githzari have some interesting views on Lichdom.

You see where I'm going...have fun with it. If your players think of something clever, let them have a win. It's not you vs them. But there are other powers in the world that have their own agendas, and almost none of them take kindly to Liches, what with wanting to be alive, and all.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Puke]

A solution to the scenario (which, as stated above, is a Lich barely stretching their legs) would be to think laterally.

Your Empire is indeed screwed -- just as Men were vs Sauron -- without the intervention of more powerful beings.

If you have a PC Lich stomping around, the most obvious question to me is "Where are the HEROES that hate Undead?"

You Empire might be strong with magic, but they probably have money.

You, sir, need a Dr. Van Helsing. Some nasty Paladins. Perhaps an order of Monks dedicated to keeping the dead in the dirt where they belong.

Also, all this traipsing around in the Ether -- the Ethereal isn't empty. Things live there. Some of them are pretty. Some of them are not. Sometimes there's shadowy horrible mind-shattering creatures of horror. Some of them think Liches are crunchy and go well with ketchup. All this stomping around would stir things up.

The Gods many be dead, but Death Slaadi don't care. Githyanki and Githzari have some interesting views on Lichdom.

You see where I'm going...have fun with it. If your players think of something clever, let them have a win. It's not you vs them. But there are other powers in the world that have their own agendas, and almost none of them take kindly to Liches, what with wanting to be alive, and all.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

I had a good laugh reading you.

Yes, the ethereal creatures will catch up eventually.

There was indeed an order of monks dedicated to keep the deads where they were. But the party was clever enough to make a deal with the Goddess of Death. She allowed the lich to raise some undeads, as long as the lich allows most of the people he kills to reach the underworld and do not destroy villages full of innocent people. She said she would be the judge of the balance of this deal. So the lich is, so far, very careful of what he raises as undead, and what kind of undead he raises.

Most of the Empire is random soldiers, most of the soldiers dispatched far away from their territory are convicts, thieves, pariah, or very poor people who chose the army instead of starvation.
The Inquisition however, is not as weak.

So far they have encountered some people who spotted instantly when someone was under a mind affecting spell, they are :
- The Crusaders, some kind of elite soldiers, who are trained and way smarter than the regular soldiers
- The "paladins". They are not your regular paladin since they cannot draw divine power anymore, but they still have a very strong willpower.

Following the logic of this universe, my Dr Van Helsing would be an inquisitor. Maybe some kind of Elite warrior dispatched by the Empire with abilities to seek and destroy undead.
Is there any class dedicated to this ? I'll take a look in the books but knowing how many there are, if you think of something...

The Empire is aware there is a lich wandering around. So far, they were unable to find the player character because he took every precaution to hide himself (he embalmed his body, and uses spells to hide is aura).

[OracleofWuffing]

Sharks for hands.

The game kind of assumes in Epic Levels that your opponents are probably gonna have some form of resistance to compulsion, or maybe they don't all have fingers (like a plant or ooze), or maybe they have rings of their own that would need to be removed first, or maybe they're wearing gauntlets on top of their hands, or maybe instead of having a single general the fort is controlled by multiple generals that operate on some sort of quorum system, whatever. Possibly, even some of the forts are sending out commando units to go on the offensive. Maybe even all of the above. But why not throw a guy with sharks for hands out as one of the generals? Raise your hand if you ever successfully snuck a ring onto a shark. :smallwink:

And yes, at least one of the sharks has bard levels, so it can sing "Baby Shark" the entire encounter.

[Puke]

Sharks for hands.

The game kind of assumes in Epic Levels that your opponents are probably gonna have some form of resistance to compulsion, or maybe they don't all have fingers (like a plant or ooze), or maybe they have rings of their own that would need to be removed first, or maybe they're wearing gauntlets on top of their hands, or maybe instead of having a single general the fort is controlled by multiple generals that operate on some sort of quorum system, whatever. Possibly, even some of the forts are sending out commando units to go on the offensive. Maybe even all of the above. But why not throw a guy with sharks for hands out as one of the generals? Raise your hand if you ever successfully snuck a ring onto a shark. :smallwink:

And yes, at least one of the sharks has bard levels, so it can sing "Baby Shark" the entire encounter.

Ahah yeah, might be fun.

TBH I let them control some guys cuz so far they have encountered a lot of powerful yet large creatures who could not equip the ring.

The multiple general thing might be the fairest solution.

I also found this :

The Church Inquisitor class.

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/church-inquisitor/index.html

What do you guys think ? Could it be the perfect bad guy counter measure there is ?

[Crake]

Ahah yeah, might be fun.

TBH I let them control some guys cuz so far they have encountered a lot of powerful yet large creatures who could not equip the ring.

The multiple general thing might be the fairest solution.

I also found this :

The Church Inquisitor class.

http://dnd.arkalseif.info/classes/church-inquisitor/index.html

What do you guys think ? Could it be the perfect bad guy counter measure there is ?

I mean, Dispel Magic on the dominate and remove curse on the ring are 5th and 7th level abilities that are accessible to almost every caster class... I don't think you need to tailor any specific counters, those do the job plenty fine.

Edit: Greater Dispel magic is also an 11th level ability that can remove both at the same time.