Help for an UrLock Build

[NoRobotForSure]

Hello =)
currently I am planing an UrLock build and would like to hear some opinion and advice

Ability Scores
We use the 4D6, drop lowest rule. I got realy lucky with my rolls and rolled these stats, still need confirmation from the DM

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 16
Cha 17

Race
Human
Draconic Template, LA+1 (Draconomicon, p. 149)


Just a short version :)
I was thinking of a female, maybe in her 20s / 30s, living by the countryside. As there is conflict across the land she lost her first spouse and child, but was somehow still able to get through. She is living a hard, but fulfilling and faitfull live. Her current spouse was taken in for military service, leaving her with a child (maybe something between 8-13) and pregnant behind. She is still able to somehow make it on a daily basis. Someday some bad guys (cultists or something like that) show up, kidnap some village folk (her and her child includet) and start to sacrifice them to fuel some evil ritual. Somehow she manages to keep consciousness and witnesses the whole ceremony while pleading to the gods for aid, rescue, salvation. When the garrison finally shows up there is a huge disrution of energy when the ritual comes to a stop, leavin her body mutilated and her mind broken. She is one of the survivors, lost her child and unborn. She can barely bear the pain and suffering, blaims everything and everyone, is unable to understand her lost and why the gods did not intervened.
After the incident she stumbles upon a devil. His claims, that the gods would have been able to help, just could not be bothered, are easily able to corrupt her further. He on the other hand will help her to get the power needed for her revange. The devil gives her a Thinaun weapon and does persuade her to kill the local cleric with and bring it back with his soul as payment. After the deed is done he restores her body with his magic - apart from the scars on her lower body as reminder of her loss, and to fuel her fury and trive for revenge, grants her the power of the warlock class and orders her to become more powerfull until she is able to sap at the gods power by stealing it. For example investigating in pact magic would be a good start.

So with my background I wanna leave my DM the options open for my UrLock to maybe meet the devil again, or discover the needed power on her own. That's gonna be his call, not mine :)


Classes
Warlock 4
Binder 1
Marshal 1 - Minor Aura Determined Caster
Ur Priest 2
Hellfire Warlock 3
Eldritch Disciple 9

This would bring me Invocations / Spells of Warlock Lvl 16 and Ur Priest Lvl 10



1 WARLOCK
2 WARLOCK
3 WARLOCK
4 BINDER
5 WARLOCK
6 UR PRIEST
7 UR PRIEST
8 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
9 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
10 MARSHAL
11 HELLFIRE WARLOCK
12 HELLFIRE WARLOCK
13 HELLFIRE WARLOCK
14 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
15 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
16 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
17 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
18 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
19 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE
20 ELDRITCH DISCIPLE


Feats
For Ur Priest
Iron Will
Spell Focus (Evil)

Theese seem like a good combination for me:
Arcane Mastery
Ability Focus (Eldritch Blast)
Maximize Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Quicken Spell-like Ability (Eldritch Blast)
Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock) - I hope my DM let's me get the +2d6 dmg for EB aswell, if not maybe I switch this to Mortalbane

Two spare, Extra Invocation seems tempting as I'm having a hard time choosing my Invocations, see below

Are there some must have feats for the Ur Priest? I never played a character with cleric spells before.



This gives me some headache, there are just too many good options


Eldritch Spear
Entropic Warding

What to choose?
Beguiling Influence - early game face boost
Frightful Blast / Sickening Blast - early game debuff
Baleful Utterance - useability and versatility
See the Unseen - Is there any other simple way of seeing Invisible enemys?
Dark One's Own Luck - boosting a save is nice, however in my build whis would be capped at 4



Brimstone Blast - for Hellfire Warlock and setting things on fire

Now this is the real reason I'm thinking about Extra Invocation Feat(s).. soo many things
The Dead Walk - undead army, good army
Fell Flight - who does not want to flight?
Flee the Scene - mobility and survivability
Walk Unseen - lot's of my other invocations won't break invisibility
Voracious Dispelling - is this worth it with the capped spelllvl of +10?
Ignore the Pyre - versatile, but I guess later I could use spells for this

I think I gonna get these just as a Rod
Hellrime Blast
Eldritch Chain



Noxious Blast
Chilling Tentacles

Cannot decide:
Nightmares Made Real - for additional filed control
Painful Slumber of Ages
Devil's Whispers



Dark Foresight
or Utterdark Blast

Retributive Invisibility - sounds good, but I guess I would get this far too late to be very usefull



Items
mithral breastplate - or use wands of greater mage armor
(Greater) Chasuble of Fell Power
Warlock's Scepter
some Rod of Eldritch Power for shapes / essences
Item for + Wis
Item for + Cha

Am I missing something very important here?


Roles in the Group / Skills to use
In early game my skillpoints are mostely blocked to get anything necessary for die Ur Priest prc. After that I could maybe use the skill points to become a face, as the character got the Cha and Wis (sense motive) to back it off. Or I could continue with the (already somewhat high) Knowledge skills.
How important is UMD, if I already can use cleric wands without failure?
In combat I can see this build for debuffs and field control (either indirectly with undead minions or directly with things like Chilling Tentacles) and some far range pew pew damage

Here are some thinks I need help for:
What are good spells to pick (either as UrPriest, or Wands) to complement my build? I know spells can do about anything, but I never played a full caster before.
Are there some good items that would help my Warlock side aswell as my Ur Priest side?
What are some good things to trade my Rebuke attemps for?
Is Arcane Mastery and the Marshal aura enough to reliable overcome spell resistance?

[Troacctid]

I recommend checking out my Warlockopedia (link in sig) which has advice on most of your questions.

A few points:
Draconic template is bad. The marshal dip is also bad. You can't afford to go dropping caster levels left and right when you're already behind from multiclassing, and even if you could, those are too low-impact for the cost.
How much less important is UMD when you have the cleric list? A lot less important.
Just take vitriolic blast for spell resistance.
Some particularly synergistic feats for your build are Silver Tongue, Divine Metamagic, Divine Defiance, Insane Defiance, Practiced Magic, and Dark Speech.

[Rebel7284]

- While normally LA is indeed bad, if your group is using LA buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, it becomes okay!

- Don't see a lot of use for Marshal either, unless there is another character that really needs that Charisma to X bonus.

- Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell] is amazing, allowing you to keep your buffs on all day. Take it as soon as possible, unless it's too powerful for your group.

- Note that you can get Iron Will as a bonus feat from Otyugh Hole magical location in Complete Scoundrel. Costs 3000gp if I recall correctly to add it to your backstory. Feats are way more valuable than gold.

- A lot of builds like this go with melee route since Eldritch Glaive + Quickened Eldritch Glaive are fun after your get full BAB from Persisted Divine Power and have enough defensive buffs to be okay in melee.

[Troacctid]

- While normally LA is indeed bad, if your group is using LA buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, it becomes okay!
Draconic template is still bad though.

[NoRobotForSure]

thanks for your advice :)


I recommend checking out my Warlockopedia (link in sig) which has advice on most of your questions.
Excelent! gonna check it out, got something to read now ^^


Draconic template is bad.

- While normally LA is indeed bad, if your group is using LA buyoff from Unearthed Arcana, it becomes okay!
Yes, we use the buyoff rules, I forgot to mention that, so LA+1 basically besomes free of cost in the long run
What would be a better tempate?


The marshal dip is also bad. You can't afford to go dropping caster levels left and right when you're already behind from multiclassing, and even if you could, those are too low-impact for the cost.

Don't see a lot of use for Marshal either, unless there is another character that really needs that Charisma to X bonus.

My thoughts here where if I gonna use the Feat Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock) I basically get those lost caster levels from multiclassing back, so I can afford the fourth non Warlock class

I somewhere read about the Feat Arcane Mastery being nearly enough to reliable beat spell resistance for appropriate encounters and since I gonna have with high Cha anyway the Minor Aura for Spell Penetration seemed a good deal to me. So am I on the wrong way here?


Some particularly synergistic feats for your build are Silver Tongue, Divine Metamagic, Divine Defiance, Insane Defiance, Practiced Magic, and Dark Speech.

- Divine Metamagic [Persistent Spell] is amazing, allowing you to keep your buffs on all day. Take it as soon as possible, unless it's too powerful for your group.

- Note that you can get Iron Will as a bonus feat from Otyugh Hole magical location in Complete Scoundrel. Costs 3000gp if I recall correctly to add it to your backstory. Feats are way more valuable than gold.

Thanks, a lot for those recomendations and for the magical location, gonna have to talk with my DM about that one :)
I already had a look at Dark Speech, as that would fit into the whole concept of my character rather well and I'm on the bottem of the alignment chart anyway :D I think if my DM allows the Otyugh Hole being implemented in my background I gonna swap Dark Speech in



A lot of builds like this go with melee route since Eldritch Glaive + Quickened Eldritch Glaive are fun after your get full BAB from Persisted Divine Power and have enough defensive buffs to be okay in melee.
Since I already played a melee I wanted to try something with a lot more range, so I think I gonna keep on the pewpew track for the moment and maybe swap in the Glaive at some point to just test it out

[Troacctid]

Yes, we use the buyoff rules, I forgot to mention that, so LA+1 basically besomes free of cost in the long run
What would be a better tempate?
Check in the Races and Templates (https://docs.google.com/document/d/162mLgTiBJ4et4yFkZRoBAZzb0fW8vRaC1gR4YolKGiE/edit) section of the Warlockopedia, should be some useful options there.


My thoughts here where if I gonna use the Feat Practiced Spellcaster (Warlock) I basically get those lost caster levels from multiclassing back, so I can afford the fourth non Warlock class
Practiced Spellcaster affects the caster-level-based variables of your spells or invocations, but it doesn't improve eldritch blast damage or help you get new invocations. Delaying your invocation progression by a level is going to hurt a lot. That's the real cost. Also, ur-priest caster level matters too!


I somewhere read about the Feat Arcane Mastery being nearly enough to reliable beat spell resistance for appropriate encounters and since I gonna have with high Cha anyway the Minor Aura for Spell Penetration seemed a good deal to me. So am I on the wrong way here?
If you combine it with boosts to spell penetration, then yes, it can make it pretty easy to beat spell resistance; however, it's even easier (and less resource-intensive) to just take vitriolic blast, which ignores spell resistance, sidestepping the issue completely.

[NoRobotForSure]

Check in the Races and Templates section of the Warlockopedia, should be some useful options there.
Already on it :smallcool:
The part on Invocations is very helpfull, gonna change my selection a little


Practiced Spellcaster affects the caster-level-based variables of your spells or invocations, but it doesn't improve eldritch blast damage or help you get new invocations. Delaying your invocation progression by a level is going to hurt a lot. That's the real cost. Also, ur-priest caster level matters too!
Regarding the Ur-Priest caster level: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)" I'm hoping my DM is gonna let me take my Warlock caster levels for progressing Ur-Priest caster level, even tho Warlock ain't technically a 'spellcasting class'. If my DM deneis this, well, to be honest besides Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-Priest)I don't realy know how I should address this issue.

Regarding EB damage yeah, RAW Practiced Spellcaster does not increase the damage, however as mentioned in https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602483-Warlock-Richard-Baker (I can't post links yet, sorry) Richard himself would let this pass as a DM. As we are talking about 2D6 worth of damage - this would not realy break anything. Maybe I can convince my DM.

The only real bummer is the delayed progression.

Thanks again for the help :)

[Troacctid]

Regarding the Ur-Priest caster level: "To determine the caster level of an ur-priest, add the character's ur-priest levels to one-half of his levels in other spellcasting classes. (Any levels gained in the cleric class by an ex-cleric don't count.)" I'm hoping my DM is gonna let me take my Warlock caster levels for progressing Ur-Priest caster level, even tho Warlock ain't technically a 'spellcasting class'. If my DM deneis this, well, to be honest besides Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-Priest)I don't realy know how I should address this issue.
Instead of being a human and spending a bonus feat on Practiced Spellcaster, you could be an illumian and take the krau sigil, which applies to all your spellcasting classes. And, of course, you can drop the marshal level, which doesn't help ur-priest at all.


Regarding EB damage yeah, RAW Practiced Spellcaster does not increase the damage, however as mentioned in https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602483-Warlock-Richard-Baker (I can't post links yet, sorry) Richard himself would let this pass as a DM. As we are talking about 2D6 worth of damage - this would not realy break anything. Maybe I can convince my DM.
That's not really what he said. It was more like "This is a choice we could have made if we wanted to, and it probably wouldn't have caused problems, but we chose something else instead." There's a lot of places in the rules where the designers wouldn't have broken anything by making different choices, but that doesn't mean the other choices they could have made would have been better, or even as good. Practiced Spellcaster very deliberately doesn't affect class features other than caster level. I've tried the houserule where blast damage is based on caster level instead of warlock level, and I found it wanting. The progression is calibrated so that you often get your +1d6 damage on the levels where you don't learn new invocations and vice versa. If you de-sync those progressions, it creates dead levels and makes advancement less satisfying. Also, it warps incentives, pushing you towards grubbing for caster level boosts. So, long story short, as a DM, I recommend against doing that.

[Darg]

If my DM deneis this, well, to be honest besides Practiced Spellcaster (Ur-Priest)I don't realy know how I should address this issue.

Well, Ur-priest 2 and eldritch disciple 10 brings your caster level to 12. With practiced spellcaster that becomes 16.

If you don't mind dumping hellfire warlock you could take mystic theurge 3 to pump ur-priest caster levels to 19.

If you aren't against RAW shenanigans and the DM approves it, you could dump hellfire warlock and take hierophant levels. Warlock benefits from classes who give spellcasting levels as a benefit which hierophant does, and hierophant applies it's caster level increase from levels to all classes you possess. The spell power ability is icing on the cake as it also applies to all your classes (even though it only applies to your spells, SLAs, and caster level checks). This would give you 17 levels of warlock blast dice and invocations and 19 caster levels of ur-priest with practiced spellcaster up to 24 with spell power x5. This is strictly RAW shenanigans so don't take it without salt.

[Rebel7284]

Caster level 16 is not bad, even if a little vulnerable to Dispel Magic (Greater)

Easiest way to boost that would be through items.

Bead of Karma + Ankh of Ascension are helpful, but the best thing to do is to buff under the effect of Consumptive Field and/or Greater Consumptive Field spells to increase your caster level by 50% or 125% if both are in play. Get yourself a silly strength score too, for the lolz. Those spells can also be persisted.

[Darg]

I have to agree caster the caster level difference is fairly minor. The issue comes when the OP takes hellfire warlock before going full eldritch disciple which will cripple his ability to keep up with caster levels from level 9 onward being 4 levels behind from level 11-20.