10th Lvl Magical Secrets Glamour Bard

[Starchild7309]

I am playing a Glamour Bard who is about to gain 10th lvl. I am really trying to determine what spells to pick up. Spell casting wise in the group we have a druid who will be 10th, a ranger/druid who is evenly split, and a Cleric 1/Storm Sorc 8. I tend to focus on battlefield control and light healing, but I have noticed we lack in a few areas. have two choices and one of the next things we are dealing with is at least one vampire so I was thinking Dawn would be helpful, especially since I don't really have a lot of damage output. The other ideas I had were Arcane Eye, since we don't really have a scout, Wall of Force, Deathward, Sickening Radiance, or Bigby's Hand.

An suggestions for or against any of these spells would be appreciated or if there is another spell I should look at please make a suggestion.

[AHF]

A couple to consider:

Counterspell (you are better than non-abjurer casters at this since you get to add half your proficiency bonus)
Find Greater Steed

Circle of Power and Wall of Force are really nice picks too but do require concentration unlike those above

[Zuras]

Do you plan on using Animate Objects as your big spell for damage output in big fights? If not, Bigby’s hand might work. Dawn is pretty disappointing for damage, since it triggers after the turn instead of before.

Remember you don’t have to pick up a high level spell. Something that dramatically improves your mobility, like Misty Step, can often be a strong choice.

Given your party composition, I’d leave the damage to the Druid and pick up Wall of Force and Misty Step, since nobody else in the party can duplicate those features.

[AHF]

Bear in mind that Bards do get Dimension Door on their list (which can do a lot more than Misty Step) and that misty step can be gotten with the Fey Touched feat which is a really strong option for a Bard since you get another spell and can raise your charisma by 1 if you still need it.

[PhantomSoul]

Given your party composition, I’d leave the damage to the Druid and pick up Wall of Force and Misty Step, since nobody else in the party can duplicate those features.

Depending on what the Storm Sorcerer likes to cast, they may be one level off.

Misty Step would be better to get through the Fey Touched feat if that'll be an option at 12 and you're willing to wait (Dimension Door would help hold you over).

[Zuras]

Depending on what the Storm Sorcerer likes to cast, they may be one level off.

Misty Step would be better to get through the Fey Touched feat if that'll be an option at 12 and you're willing to wait (Dimension Door would help hold you over).

My recommendation of Misty Step is primarily because it’s both extremely useful and only uses a 2nd level slot. My experience with Bards is they end up with too many 5th level spells that they don’t regularly cast, and end up spamming their low level slots on Dissonant Whispers. To be fair that’s not a bad plan if you used your 5th level slot on Animate Objects, but still…

[Starchild7309]

So the druid is Circle of the Moon and spends most of the time in wild shape.

I already have dimension door and CHA is maxed out.

I liked Find Greater Steed, but it doesn't really fit the campaign. We spend a ton of time in cramped small dungeon areas where it would be useless.

I was looking at animate objects also. I need something that does radiant damage though. Dawn I thought would be good since we are hunting vampires and it is actual sunlight.

I am very much torn on what to pick and looking again, I am highly disappointed by bard cantrips.

[AHF]

If you are really focused on radiant damage, you should consider:

Spirit Guardians
Guardian of Faith
Holy Weapon (for a martial to wield)
Moonbeam

Bear in mind that the Animate Objects spell is a bard spell so you don’t need to burn your magical secrets on it.

[Zuras]

If you are really focused on radiant damage, you should consider:

Spirit Guardians
Guardian of Faith
Holy Weapon (for a martial to wield)
Moonbeam

Bear in mind that the Animate Objects spell is a bard spell so you don’t need to burn your magical secrets on it.


Based on the listed party composition, there’s not really someone who can get optimal usage out of Holy Weapon, the only martial is the Ranger/Druid.

If you are in lots of dungeons, Moonbeam can be absolutely amazing. It’s good damage, the limitation is the small affected area. I didn’t recommend it mainly because the two druids in the party have easy access to it.

Guardian of Faith isn’t going to do the trick because your opponent controls when it goes off, so you’re not going to do the last bit of radiant damage to a regenerating vampire that way.

I’d recommend Spirit Guardians to a Valor or Swords Bard, but as a Glamour Bard I assume you’re less optimized for melee combat. Spirit Guardians + Shield would be a good choice if you want to start getting close to enemies and not immediately regret it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Counterspell is a very good choice. Suggest you pick that up for sure. I've gotten a lot of use out of it.

Bigby's Hand: this is a bit of a "when it's good, it's very good" but I have also found that it's quite situationally dependent. Campaign dependent, level 5 slots are quite valuable at your current level. (I had raise dead by level 9 since I was the party support, but you've got a cleric so you don't need it).

Wall of Force, as a battlefield control spell, has a lot of good uses. Trap one enemy, or block off an area, Stays up for 10 minutes. A fine spell. I will never let it go now that I have it.

I'll link you to some threads I made with Magical Secrets discussions, I agonized a bit as I arrived at those levels.

Telekenesis is well worth considering, and might be a better fit than Bigby's hand.

here we go, some extended magical secrets considerations at 10 and 14.

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24839097&postcount=1

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634447-Analysis-Paralysis-Anonymous-LoreBard-lvl-14-2d-Magical-Secret-(I-m-going-nuts)&highlight=secrets

[RogueJK]

My recommendation of Misty Step is primarily because it’s both extremely useful and only uses a 2nd level slot. My experience with Bards is they end up with too many 5th level spells that they don’t regularly cast, and end up spamming their low level slots on Dissonant Whispers.

If your Bard is wanting something to use with 2nd level slots, Spiritual Weapon is potentially worth considering as a Magical Secrets pick. It's non-concentration, can be used with 2nd/3rd/4th level slots as needed, and gives you the potential for greater damage per slot than Dissonant Whispers: 1d8/2d8+CHA per BA for X rounds of combat vs. 2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6 once. This means two hits of a 2nd/3rd/4th level Spiritual Weapons already outdamages one corresponding 2nd/3rd/4th level Dissonant Whispers, and every round after two further expands the damage gap. The only way Dissonant Whispers can outdamage Spiritual Weapon's potential is if combat ends before you get a couple Spiritual Weapon hits in, or you use DW's movement rider to strategically trigger Opportunity Attacks from hard-hitting party members, like a Sneak Attacking Rogue, Booming Blade Warcaster Gish, Smiting GWM Paladin, etc.

(And I agree that picking up Misty Step with Fey Touched is a much better option than spending one of your 10th level Magical Secrets picks. Even on a Lore Bard with their 6th level Magical Secrets picks, there are often a number of better choices than Misty Step, with Spiritual Weapon being one of them.)


However, the go-to suggestions for 10th level Magical Secrets picks tend to be Wall of Force, Find Greater Steed, Circle of Power, and Counterspell. (As already mentioned.)

In general, there could be other good options, depending on certain factors. For example, Banishment is potentially useful (especially since no other party member has it currently), and becomes even more so if you're commonly fighting beings from other planes. The aforementioned Spiritual Weapon could be a good option, if you want to up your damage contribution a bit, and have lower level slots that are commonly going unused during the day. Or if you feel like your party is lacking in frontline meatshields, a Conjure/Summon spell like Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, or Summon Celestial is worth considering.

Generally, I'd recommend not using both picks on 5th level spells, and not picking two Concentration spells. Bards already have a solid 5th level spell list, and already have a lot of competition for their Concentration. Give yourself some leeway by making at least one of the picks 2nd/3rd/4th level, and at least one of the picks non-Concentration. (For example: Counterspell fits both criteria here, and is also one of the best option for a Magical Secrets pick for a Bard overall anyway.)

In this specific case, besides Counterspell, I'd recommend that the OP give Summon Celestial a look, as a second potentially good pick for you. The Defender version gives the party an additional melee frontliner, plus it can buff itself and another party members with Temp HP every round. Or the Avenger version gives you a flying 150' ranged attacker, to rain damage down on enemies from above (even potentially out of range of any retaliatory attacks). And either Celestial version does Radiant damage, which would be extra useful when fighting the upcoming Vampire. Plus, no other party member will have access to it.

[Zuras]

Massive brain fart that I didn’t think of it earlier—Crusaders Mantle is probably your best bet for radiant damage at your party composition.

[Bobthewizard]

I wouldn't take dawn. Let the sorcerer pick up sickening radiance for the ongoing AOE radiant damage. If you take wall of force and combine it with the sorcerer's sickening radiance that is a great combo.

Other than wall of force, since it's so good, I'd avoid concentration spells. Bards have enough good concentration spells - Tasha's laughter, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, fear, polymorph, animate objects. I like find greater steed but if that won't work for the campaign then don't take it. Fireball or lightning bolt could still be useful for a few more levels.

I wouldn't use magical secrets for a cantrip but if you have an extra ASI, magic initiate to get an attack cantrip can be helpful.

Not sure what you have for reactions, but counterspell as suggested above is good. If you know you aren't going to be facing a lot of spell casters, then leave that to the sorcerer too. Then shield or absorb elements are decent picks here too, even though thy are only 1st level spells. don't take those if you plan to dip sorcerer or hexblade though.

I also can't recommend command enough, but that's on the bard list now. At this level, it's much better to use an enemy's action than their reaction and the small amount of damage from dissonant whispers. Plus you can upcast it for more targets.

[Starchild7309]

I also can't recommend command enough, but that's on the bard list now. At this level, it's much better to use an enemy's action than their reaction and the small amount of damage from dissonant whispers. Plus you can upcast it for more targets.

I have the Glamour Bard ability that allows me to cast command every round for 1 min using no spell slots so taking command seems like overkill

[Starchild7309]

Massive brain fart that I didn’t think of it earlier—Crusaders Mantle is probably your best bet for radiant damage at your party composition.

Probably not as I never get that close to the actual fighting. I did forget to mention we have a samurai who is the main tank. The Samurai and the Moon Druid tank.

[Starchild7309]

If your Bard is wanting something to use with 2nd level slots, Spiritual Weapon is potentially worth considering as a Magical Secrets pick. It's non-concentration, can be used with 2nd/3rd/4th level slots as needed, and gives you the potential for greater damage per slot than Dissonant Whispers: 1d8/2d8+CHA per BA for X rounds of combat vs. 2d6/3d6/4d6/5d6 once. This means two hits of a 2nd/3rd/4th level Spiritual Weapons already outdamages one corresponding 2nd/3rd/4th level Dissonant Whispers, and every round after two further expands the damage gap. The only way Dissonant Whispers can outdamage Spiritual Weapon's potential is if combat ends before you get a couple Spiritual Weapon hits in, or you use DW's movement rider to strategically trigger Opportunity Attacks from hard-hitting party members, like a Sneak Attacking Rogue, Booming Blade Warcaster Gish, Smiting GWM Paladin, etc.

Unfortunately we have no heavy hitters. No gish, no rogue, no Pally.




However, the go-to suggestions for 10th level Magical Secrets picks tend to be Wall of Force, Find Greater Steed, Circle of Power, and Counterspell. (As already mentioned.)

In general, there could be other good options, depending on certain factors. For example, Banishment is potentially useful (especially since no other party member has it currently), and becomes even more so if you're commonly fighting beings from other planes. The aforementioned Spiritual Weapon could be a good option, if you want to up your damage contribution a bit, and have lower level slots that are commonly going unused during the day. Or if you feel like your party is lacking in frontline meatshields, a Conjure/Summon spell like Conjure Animals, Conjure Woodland Beings, or Summon Celestial is worth considering.


I need to find a decent way to do radiant damage and while all these spells are good, the summon celestial is the only radiant choice. Summon celestial does seem pretty decent though. I didn't see that one before and I kind of like it.

[Zuras]

Probably not as I never get that close to the actual fighting. I did forget to mention we have a samurai who is the main tank. The Samurai and the Moon Druid tank.

As long as you can manage to stay within 30 feet of the frontliners they will be dealing additional radiant damage. It’s especially strong in concert with summon spells like conjure animals, as it provides radiant damage allowing summoned creatures to deal damage against enemies immune or resistant to non magical slashing/piercing damage.

If your druids aren’t ever summoning stuff it’s less optimal, but it’s a very good tool for giving everyone in the party radiant damage at points when it’s critical.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you take wall of force and combine it with the sorcerer's sickening radiance that is a great combo. Unless they have disintegrate handy. :smallbiggrin:


Other than wall of force, since it's so good, I'd avoid concentration spells. Bards have enough good concentration spells - Tasha's laughter, suggestion, hypnotic pattern, fear, polymorph, animate objects. The ability to use second level spell slots for this is handy.

{command} At this level, it's much better to use an enemy's action than their reaction and the small amount of damage from dissonant whispers. Plus you can upcast it for more targets. I am tempted to swap out DW for command, since I can also use it in non combat situations.

Summon celestial does seem pretty decent though. I didn't see that one before and I kind of like it. It's a good spell, though it does take concentration.