Origin vs specialty

[clash]

So I was taking a look at subclasses and I noticed that they fall into two distinct categories. First there are origin subclasses, those that describe how you got your powers or class. The sorcerer and warlock, in some ways the cleric fall into this. Next there is the specialty subclasses those that indicate a character specializing in sobering through training. Warlocks are in an odd place that the pact bon is almost intended to provide a specially on top of their training.

My thought was to take this even further. Give every class an origin they can choose at level one that gives abilities throughout. Then a signature class ability at level 2. Then their subclass specialty starting at level 3. What do you guys think of this?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Seems like what you want is more teeth to the background system.

[clash]

Not quite. The background is what you were doing before your class. I'm thinking of the origin as what have you your class. For example with a sorcerer their draconic origin is what made them a sorcerer

[Millstone85]

I like the concept, but what would be, for example, a sorcerous specialty?

Best I can think of is having the sorcerer martial up, or staying a pure spellcaster.

Or gaining a familiar, to worsen the thematic conflict with the warlock. :smalltongue:

[MoiMagnus]

I like the concept, but what would be, for example, a sorcerous specialty?

Metamagic pretty much covers that part. You would just need to group few metamagic options together (plus maybe invent a few additional ones), and add a few ribbon abilities to give different personalities to each bundle.

[KorvinStarmast]

My thought was to take this even further. Give every class an origin they can choose at level one that gives abilities throughout. Then a signature class ability at level 2. Then their subclass specialty starting at level 3. What do you guys think of this? Not much, the whole first three levels structure is uneven, for what appear to be narrative reasons. By level 3 each class has added some things.

Here's my suggestion to you: start your games at level 3. problem goes away. The first two levels are "training wheels" levels to a great extent to get people new to the game easily inserted into it.

(With the notable exception IME of the prepared spell casters).

[clash]

Not much, the whole first three levels structure is uneven, for what appear to be narrative reasons. By level 3 each class has added some things.

Here's my suggestion to you: start your games at level 3. problem goes away. The first two levels are "training wheels" levels to a great extent to get people new to the game easily inserted into it.

(With the notable exception IME of the prepared spell casters).

I mean it's not about just the first three levels though. Functionally both the origin and specialty should provide abilities as you level up. Kinda like with warlocks how there are additional invocations to enhance the pact boon as they level up. I see it as the origin providing thematic abilities and the specialty providing a mechanical play style. The two subclasses would allow you to better define your character.

[Dienekes]

Not quite. The background is what you were doing before your class. I'm thinking of the origin as what have you your class. For example with a sorcerer their draconic origin is what made them a sorcerer

I can see how this would work for some classes, but other's I'm a bit more confused on.

So, for example Barbarian. I actually think would be remarkably easy.

Origins: Pure Wrath, War Ritual, Drugs, Shaman Spirits, Demonic Possession, Lycanthropy could all be adequate ways of describing how a barbarian got their rage. While Big Numbers Brute, Whirling Dervish, Unstoppable Juggernaut could all be specialties.

But others like Paladin have far more emphasis placed on just their tenets. These oaths should by their nature reflect both their origin and their specialty, since taking up an oath is the origin of their power, while upholding those oaths should reflect what mechanical powers they have. It'd be really weird if the Oath of Devotion origin got attached to the Murder Everything and Intimidate them specialty set.

[Lunali]

I can see how this would work for some classes, but other's I'm a bit more confused on.

So, for example Barbarian. I actually think would be remarkably easy.

Origins: Pure Wrath, War Ritual, Drugs, Shaman Spirits, Demonic Possession, Lycanthropy could all be adequate ways of describing how a barbarian got their rage. While Big Numbers Brute, Whirling Dervish, Unstoppable Juggernaut could all be specialties.

But others like Paladin have far more emphasis placed on just their tenets. These oaths should by their nature reflect both their origin and their specialty, since taking up an oath is the origin of their power, while upholding those oaths should reflect what mechanical powers they have. It'd be really weird if the Oath of Devotion origin got attached to the Murder Everything and Intimidate them specialty set.

If I were doing paladin, I would probably have origin be the nature of your powers. Some paladins bring holy light, some nature's wrath, some corrupt their surroundings. The specialties would be their oaths. Some combinations would be very weird, but it's up to the DM to require players to have an actual story to their character or not.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean it's not about just the first three levels though. Functionally both the origin and specialty should provide abilities as you level up. Should? Hardly, it works as is. Your opinion is noted, but your assertion is rejected.
Early on in this edition I was a little puzzled with how unevenly the PC progression comes on line for different classes. Until I embraced "We made this edition easy to learn for the first few levels" point, and it really sank in as I played with some new players, (I've been playing for a long time) I didn't see the "why" of their decisions.
I now understand it.
Personal preference: with experienced players, I prefer to start at level 2 or 3 due to the swinginess of a d20 at level 1 and they are capable of handling more tools.

[YoungestGruff]

Warlocks. You are describing Warlock's Pact vs Boons. Not a surprise, though - outside of the headache of balance and ensuring you don't end up with a Hexblade/Blade Pact situation, it's a clever design. With three classes and three each of first and third level subclass, you get 3x3x3 possible combinations. Even Warrior/Mage/Thief suddenly has more options than the PHB came with with only three core classes.

[clash]

I can see how this would work for some classes, but other's I'm a bit more confused on.

So, for example Barbarian. I actually think would be remarkably easy.

Origins: Pure Wrath, War Ritual, Drugs, Shaman Spirits, Demonic Possession, Lycanthropy could all be adequate ways of describing how a barbarian got their rage. While Big Numbers Brute, Whirling Dervish, Unstoppable Juggernaut could all be specialties.


Yes. This is what I'm talking about. I love these ideas.

[clash]

Should? Hardly, it works as is. Your opinion is noted, but your assertion is rejected.
Early on in this edition I was a little puzzled with how unevenly the PC progression comes on line for different classes. Until I embraced "We made this edition easy to learn for the first few levels" point, and it really sank in as I played with some new players, (I've been playing for a long time) I didn't see the "why" of their decisions.
I now understand it.
Personal preference: with experienced players, I prefer to start at level 2 or 3 due to the swinginess of a d20 at level 1 and they are capable of handling more tools.

The "should" part was clarifying my initial post, not adding an additional argument. If you would like to offer some counterpoints as to why this is a bad idea that would be useful. I was simply trying to dissuade you from arguing the structure of the first 3 levels further. I understand how they work now and frankly don't really care about them. It was just an example of how the proposed ideas of what amounts to 2 separate subclass choices per class could work based on the existing structure.

[dafrca]

Early on in this edition I was a little puzzled with how unevenly the PC progression comes on line for different classes. Until I embraced "We made this edition easy to learn for the first few levels" point, and it really sank in as I played with some new players, (I've been playing for a long time) I didn't see the "why" of their decisions.
I now understand it.
Personal preference: with experienced players, I prefer to start at level 2 or 3 due to the swinginess of a d20 at level 1 and they are capable of handling more tools.

Interesting, I have not played with a new crew for a while so had not thought of this angle but it is an interesting thought and does make sense. :smallsmile: