What’s Loki’s plan for Hel

[theinsulabot]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works.

As I understand it, Loki intends to follow Thor’s plan at least as far as having the gates spot welded with red cloak at least long enough for the dark one to absorb enough “food” that he can survive the jump to the next world. Presumably Loki does not intend to follow Thor’s plan of seeing how long the OOTS world can go since Hel would almost certainly starve in that case.

But what does he intend to do? About all I can think of which fits his personality and goals is he intends some kind of a backstab later, wherein after the dark one has been strengthened, he somehow engineers the destruction of the world himself so that Hel can eat all the dwarves and survive the jump.

Anyway, thoughts, things I missed?

[Fyraltari]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works.

As I understand it, Loki intends to follow Thor’s plan at least as far as having the gates spot welded with red cloak at least long enough for the dark one to absorb enough “food” that he can survive the jump to the next world. Presumably Loki does not intend to follow Thor’s plan of seeing how long the OOTS world can go since Hel would almost certainly starve in that case.

But what does he intend to do? About all I can think of which fits his personality and goals is he intends some kind of a backstab later, wherein after the dark one has been strengthened, he somehow engineers the destruction of the world himself so that Hel can eat all the dwarves and survive the jump.

Anyway, thoughts, things I missed?
Either he considers the death of his daughter an acceptable loss to ensure safety from the Snarl or he hopes that she can hang in there long enough for the Dark One to build the necessary reserves to survive the interorbs period, at which point he'll try to convince the other gods to blow-up this cliché-riddled world so they can make one that's actually good (in his opinion) and make that one last forever.

Not that these are mutually exclusive.

[KorvinStarmast]

This may have already been asked, and if so I apologize, but I have been wondering for a while now how Loki intends to handle a problem that will come up if his plan for containing the snarl actually works. He hasn't said, and given his generally chaotic nature, and the fact that she's in the pickle she is in thanks to his own shenanigans, I'm gonna drop a few quataloos on "has no coherent plan at this point" other than if the world does end and Hel does not make the transition, he's coming after Thor with guns blazing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html). (Of course he would, he's a fire god, right?)
Beyond that, this is the story of The Order of the Stick not the story of Shenanigans Among the Northern Pantheon Whatever plan he may, or may not, have is 'off screen' material for this story.

[Psyren]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.

(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html), so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

*We're also assuming she would starve. She's not looking too hot right now, but there's still only a chance she doesn't make it if the world gets unmade.

[theinsulabot]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.

(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html), so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

*We're also assuming she would starve. She's not looking too hot right now, but there's still only a chance she doesn't make it if the world gets unmade.


I hadn’t thought about the high priest thing, but I don’t think further support from this world is going to do it, seeing as how she is already fading out.

[RatElemental]

She was fading out after ceding a century's worth of what souls she did have. If I threw up every meal I'd eaten for the last day, let alone year, I'd probably not be feeling too hot that moment either.

[Fyraltari]

My assumption is that if they contain the Snarl long-term, there won't be a need for a "next world" and thus Hel's starvation* is unlikely to be an issue. If the world continues, she'll still get Belief and Dedications on top of her existing souls.
But can she go on without Worship? Getting enough food* is important, but so's a balanced diet.


(Furthermore, she actually has a high priest of her own now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1179.html), so she's definitely in a better spot than she was prior to the Godsmoot - even having lost both Greg and Gontor, she may now have a way to obtain some fresh Worship too, e.g. by founding a church. Loki, despite his distaste for undead, may even help with that as an apology.)

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

[Psyren]

But can she go on without Worship? Getting enough food* is important, but so's a balanced diet.

She's lasted this long without a proper High Priest. I'd say that now that she has one, her odds are a bit better.

Sure she has to protect it, but that's about the same as where she was.


Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

None of those were powerful enough to speak at the godsmoot before. (They weren't vampires either, which are considerably harder to kill than wights IIRC.)

[Forum Explorer]

Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

*Which she's probably not getting anyway since most dwarves manage to escape her.

Sure, but those were low level scrubs. Like a ghoul that's level 1 or something.

These are higher level vampires that are significantly harder to kill and thus, face significantly fewer adventurers. Combine that with having a priority on survival and this vampire cleric could go on to spawn lots of Vampire Spawns and other intelligent undead, and maybe go around founding a few cults to Hel.

Sure, she'll likely eventually be caught and killed, but the goal would be to create some successors so there is always a trickle of Worship going to Hel.

[Fyraltari]

She's lasted this long without a proper High Priest. I'd say that now that she has one, her odds are a bit better.
We know from Odin that the gods are still affected by the Belief they received in the last word. It seems to le she's been living off or her "divine fat" for lack of a better term for a while.



None of those were powerful enough to speak at the godsmoot before.
We don't know that the Frontarch is either. She's never had to cast Summon Proxy which is where the level requirement comes from, if memory serves.

In any case.

(They weren't vampires either, which are considerably harder to kill than wights IIRC.)

Sure, but those were low level scrubs. Like a ghoul that's level 1 or something.

These are higher level vampires that are significantly harder to kill and thus, face significantly fewer adventurers.
That just sounds like she'd attract more powerful adventurers. Maybe as a random encounter even. Or one (or several) of the High Priest she's stuck with could decide to go vampire hunting once they're back home and the truce stops applying.


Combine that with having a priority on survival
You think her previous high priests didn't prioritise survival?

[theinsulabot]

She was fading out after ceding a century's worth of what souls she did have. If I threw up every meal I'd eaten for the last day, let alone year, I'd probably not be feeling too hot that moment either.

Loki specifically said “if it’s to late and she starves…” which heavily implies her problem is due to her uneven diet, and it’s longitudinal vs something just due to her cutting lose some souls at that moment

[brian 333]

Let's not forget Curly The Brave, who boldly charged in a retrograde maneuver the moment Durkon defeated Greg.

Due to Roy's presence there were likely no Tinkertown vampires and, while possible, vamping one or more of the Mechane's crew might have been noticed. But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north? For that matter, were there innocent bystanders in the hall who were sent on unknown missions before the fight because they were too low level to help in the fight?

There may be any number of unknowm spawn and vampires scattering across The North, filled with the evangelical spirit and vampire juice.

[The MunchKING]

Let's not forget Curly The Brave, who boldly charged in a retrograde maneuver the moment Durkon defeated Greg.

Due to Roy's presence there were likely no Tinkertown vampires and, while possible, vamping one or more of the Mechane's crew might have been noticed. But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north?

Probably not that many. In one of the flashbacks, don't they say they burn bodies so they can't rise as undead? Yup. there it is (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1128.html). Well not that specific logic is stated, but it works for that too.

[Psyren]

We know from Odin that the gods are still affected by the Belief they received in the last word. It seems to le she's been living off or her "divine fat" for lack of a better term for a while.

Oh I'm not saying that if nothing changes, she won't be in dire straits. But with the world existing she has a chance to turn things around, that she wouldn't if the gods have to pull the plug and hide until the Snarl calms down again. (Plus, as I said earlier, Loki is highly likely to help her once the Snarl is taken care of.)



We don't know that the Frontarch is either. She's never had to cast Summon Proxy which is where the level requirement comes from, if memory serves.

True, but at the very least, I have no doubt there's some godsmoot rule that she's allowed to get home (wherever that may be since she's not a dwarf) unmolested. Otherwise, that gathering would become a bloodbath the moment it ends. Furthermore, I doubt many (any?) of the clerics at the moot were low-level.


That just sounds like she'd attract more powerful adventurers. Maybe as a random encounter even. Or one (or several) of the High Priest she's stuck with could decide to go vampire hunting once they're back home and the truce stops applying.

Eh, Malack no doubt attracted plenty of powerful adventurers too, and he wasn't even Nergal's high priest. I imagine it's possible for a vampire to reach a level where thy can defend themselves from rando adventurers at least.

[danielxcutter]

Even considering vampires really do have a good argument for killing them on sight if possible in this setting, that mindset in general is like half the reason the goblin situation’s deteriorated this much in the first place so… yeah, not a fan.

If you’re going to kill something evil, do it because they’re an evil bastard on their own merits damnit.

[Fyraltari]

Eh, Malack no doubt attracted plenty of powerful adventurers too, and he wasn't even Nergal's high priest. I imagine it's possible for a vampire to reach a level where thy can defend themselves from rando adventurers at least.

Random, sure, an dthen again I'm pretty sure 90% of that is staying out of the spotlight. But let's say Sunna's High Priest decides that a Church of Hel staffed with undead isn't a thing he wants to see in the world and once the Godsmoot truce is over he tasks the clerics under his command (or leads the charge himself) with nipping it in the bud. The Frontarchess doesn't even have a coffin to retreat too.

[Morty]

My impression is that Loki doesn't really have a plan. He's choosing to prioritize a chance to deal with the Snarl over Hel's well-being and hoping they can work something out afterwards.

[hroþila]

I think the text is pretty clear on this point. Clearly, Hel is in real danger of not making it. Also just as clearly, it's not a given that Hel will die and, she could make it. Clearly.

[brian 333]

I think the text is pretty clear on this point. Clearly, Hel is in real danger of not making it. Also just as clearly, it's not a given that Hel will die and, she could make it. Clearly.

So you're saying it's unambiguously uncertain.

[Dion]

So you're saying it's unambiguously uncertain.

Ostensibly.

[Emanick]

Ostensibly.

Not sure about this, personally. Is it really ostensibly unambiguously uncertain?

[Dion]

Not sure about this, personally. Is it really ostensibly unambiguously uncertain?

Undoubtedly.

[Psyren]

My impression is that Loki doesn't really have a plan. He's choosing to prioritize a chance to deal with the Snarl over Hel's well-being and hoping they can work something out afterwards.

Agreed - and with the world still existing he (and she) will have a lot more to work with than if they're cowering in the Astral waiting for the Snarl to stop rampaging.


Even considering vampires really do have a good argument for killing them on sight if possible in this setting, that mindset in general is like half the reason the goblin situation’s deteriorated this much in the first place so… yeah, not a fan.

If you’re going to kill something evil, do it because they’re an evil bastard on their own merits damnit.

I don't think we can really equate the plight of the goblins to undead though, even intelligent ones, and especially ones that survive by feeding on the living. Pre-emptively smiting those isn't the same as going after goblins, or even chromatic dragons.


Random, sure, an dthen again I'm pretty sure 90% of that is staying out of the spotlight. But let's say Sunna's High Priest decides that a Church of Hel staffed with undead isn't a thing he wants to see in the world and once the Godsmoot truce is over he tasks the clerics under his command (or leads the charge himself) with nipping it in the bud. The Frontarchess doesn't even have a coffin to retreat too.

Yes but again, with the Snarl taken care of it's likely that Hel will get some allies (Loki and Thrym at a minimum, possibly some of the other monster deities as well) that her church didn't have previously.

[SlashDash]

I hadn’t thought about the high priest thing, but I don’t think further support from this world is going to do it, seeing as how she is already fading out.
Unless she gets to recover fast. Note what Hel herself said : Vampires breed fast and from one there could be many others.



Thing is, she has had undead priests before and they all ended up getting killed by adventurers. There's no reason that one would be any different.

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.
The other being that as noted above, a big part of this story is to stop looking at beings that appear in the monster manual through bigotted eyes.

V learned that about Dragons. Redcloak teaches us about goblins.
Heck, Serini teaches us that about all her monstrous friends.

I fail to see vampires being different by the end of the story. As the poster above said, let them be judged by their own action rather than their undead status.


But how many priests, (and other bystanders,) were vamped outside of the temple of Thor who were left to their own devices because of spell slot limits, only to rise three days later, after the Mechane headed north?
Also to be noted - we don't know how many vampires survived in the godsmoot. Curley isn't the only one left. Hel still has "the one in the front" at the godsmoot.

We don't know if everyone else died at that battle or even if there are those that never entered the battle.

Hel could be building up her forces



Though I'm still betting on Curley showing up at the north pole later to try and help Xykon. There's probably a reason why she hasn't shown up yet. Hel is making sure she has enough other vampires to survive.

[RatElemental]

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.
The other being that as noted above, a big part of this story is to stop looking at beings that appear in the monster manual through bigotted eyes.

V learned that about Dragons. Redcloak teaches us about goblins.
Heck, Serini teaches us that about all her monstrous friends.

I fail to see vampires being different by the end of the story. As the poster above said, let them be judged by their own action rather than their undead status.


While this may indeed be a major theme of the story, every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy. We've also seen that vampires by simply existing violate the natural order by disrupting the disposition of the souls of their hosts. While I do think a vampire genuinely becoming good is possible, unless some method of releasing the soul trapped inside of them without destroying them is found, them continuing to hold the soul of their host hostage is a pretty big issue.

[hamishspence]

every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy.
Mr "Test of the Heart" springs to mind as an undead that was inteliigent, not a tool - and not an irredeemably evil threat to all, either.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html

Besides that onscreen example, there's a ghost elf (and, by their powers, not a Deathless but a true undead ghost) in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that Hinjo is willing to coexist with - judging them by their deeds and not their creature type.

[Lord Torath]

Mr "Test of the Heart" springs to mind as an undead that was inteliigent, not a tool - and not an irredeemably evil threat to all, either.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0328.html

Besides that onscreen example, there's a ghost elf (and, by their powers, not a Deathless but a true undead ghost) in Good Deeds Gone Unpunished that Hinjo is willing to coexist with - judging them by their deeds and not their creature type.I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire. The ghost is just the spirit of a person who died that's not yet ready to move on to the outer planes. Vampires are evil spirits that imprison the soul of the person whose body they're occupying, and that right there is pretty evil all by itself.

They also feed off sentient beings (not sure how evil this is - most omnivores and carnivores feed on sentient beings and I don't know that vampires need to feed off sapients - the Ex Exarch fed off Little Whiskers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html), and I don't know that he could be considered sapient. However, I don't know if he got any 'nutrients' from that feeding, or if it was merely intended to take Little Whiskers out of the fight), and the process does not at all seem to be enjoyable.

[Fyraltari]

I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire. The ghost is just the spirit of a person who died that's not yet ready to move on to the outer planes. Vampires are evil spirits that imprison the soul of the person whose body they're occupying, and that right there is pretty evil all by itself.
It's not their fault though.


They also feed off sentient beings (not sure how evil this is - most omnivores and carnivores feed on sentient beings and I don't know that vampires need to feed off sapients - the Ex Exarch fed off Little Whiskers (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1014.html), and I don't know that he could be considered sapient. However, I don't know if he got any 'nutrients' from that feeding, or if it was merely intended to take Little Whiskers out of the fight), and the process does not at all seem to be enjoyable.
It's also much more easily reversible than usual way of feeding of living beings.

[hamishspence]

Regarding Good Deeds Gone Unpunished, there's a difference between a ghost and a vampire.

The point is that ghosts and vampires are both kinds of undead.


I would argue that the two from The Test of the Heart are tools of the oracle.

The one in the nurse costume might have been a regular zombie. Those are "tools". But the "Cryptkeeper knockoff" seemed genuinely intelligent.

Given that the Oracle is not a spellcaster (using wands as a substitute) it is IMO quite plausible that the doctor is an employee rather than created/controlled by one of his wands (or by someone else and then donated to him).

[SlashDash]

While this may indeed be a major theme of the story, every undead on screen has been treated as irredeemably evil or as little more than mindless tools that it is at best morally neutral to destroy.

And all the goblins we saw were evil until the ones we saw that weren't.


While I do think a vampire genuinely becoming good is possible
They don't need to be good. They can still be allowed to walk around freely, so long as they don't actually commit any wrong doing. Roy had no problem letting Greg join the party under the assumption he doesn't do any particular evil deed.

People in real life have all sorts of dark desires, but as long as they actually don't act upon them, that's fine. Whether people behave because they have a moral compass or it's because they are afraid of getting caught and facing the penal system doesn't matter - as long as you don't actually commit any crime you're fine.

Innocent until proven guilty and all of that.



They also feed off sentient beings
So? We saw how Greg fed off the party and simply cast restoration on them.
It wasn't that big of a deal.

[Reboot]

So? We saw how Greg fed off the party and simply cast restoration on them.
It wasn't that big of a deal.

Restoration's a 4th level spell (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0939.html). You need to be a 7th level cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm) to have a 4th level spell slot. Most clerics don't get that high.

[Rogan]

They don't need to be good. They can still be allowed to walk around freely, so long as they don't actually commit any wrong doing. Roy had no problem letting Greg join the party under the assumption he doesn't do any particular evil deed.


But Roy didn't know that Greg was holding Durkon hostage. As far as we know, every vampire has a prisoner, the original soul. This is a wrong doing and a reason to destroy vampires on sight.

It might be possible for a vampire to have a kind of symbiotic relationship with the host. Or perhaps there is a way to set the soul free to go to the afterlife without destroying the vampire. In those cases, allowing the vampire to exist as long as he doesn't commit a crime might be fine.

[Peelee]

Several reasons actually. One is that Loki might offer them protection.

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff. And if gods could just change things on a whim, Thor would still have red hair, Odin would be of sound mind, and dwarves wouldn't think trees are their mortal enemies.

Not gonna happen.

[Cazero]

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff.
Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament? Remember who said Loki teaches that.

[RatElemental]

Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament? Remember who said Loki teaches that.

She also turned undead despite Loki almost certainly being an evil god, so the giant needed some kind of way to justify how that happened. Summoned monsters are great cannon fodder too, and anarchic creatures do indeed come from limbo. You're talking like she's incapable of saying things that are true.

[Peelee]

Remember who said Loki teaches that.


She also turned undead despite Loki almost certainly being an evil god

Aye. Could be summed up in one word, even: corroboration. Plus, it's not massively self-serving, so much less reason to doubt to start with. :smallbiggrin:

Does he? Given who his loved daughter is and her current predicament?
What does her current predicament have to do with anything? We know gods can't change on a whim against the mortals beliefs.

[SlashDash]

Loki teaches that the undead are, like, totally gross and stuff. And if gods could just change things on a whim, Thor would still have red hair, Odin would be of sound mind, and dwarves wouldn't think trees are their mortal enemies.

Not gonna happen.

Loki is the best loop hole finder from the gods we've seen so far.
He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.

Parents think a lot of stuff their kids do is dumb or gross. But they (hopefully) tolerate it on occasion for their kids sake.

Or of course get someone else to do it for him.

[Peelee]

Loki is the best loop hole finder from the gods we've seen so far.
He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.
How so? Seems like Thor is clearly better.

He has some limitations, sure, but I'm sure he'll find his way if he wishes.
Anything to back this up?

[brian 333]

And all the goblins we saw were evil until the ones we saw that weren't.

When did we see some that weren't?

In our world we don't have Detect Evil spells. In the OotSverse Evil is not a product of how one is born, but is a product of what one has done. For a creature to show as Evil it has to have committed Evil acts.

Goblins don't have to be Evil, but if one is, it has earned that status by doing Evil deeds.

The subsequent argument presented a case that supported the unLawfulness of killing Evil creatures who were not caught committing crimes.

In OotS, Good and Evil, Law and Chaos, are not inherited, (or assigned by the Monster Manuel.) They are earned. And we may never see the deeds that earned them. Do we ever see how Roy earned his Lawful Goodness?

[Larsaan]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

[hamishspence]

Given the existence of non-evil ghosts -and the fact that even Redcloak appears to only specifically be talking about corporeal undead:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html

"bits of skin and bone and dark energy, glued together by magic into the shape of a man"

it seems clear that extrapolating from Redcloak's claims to "All undead, in-universe, are exactly as Redcloak claims", is IMO likely to be inaccurate.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

When Redclaok's talking in that scene, he's missing an eye because his so-called "puppet" who teixked him into murdering his beloved brother and then made him raise that brother's corpse into undeath because that was easier than face his own guilt won't let him regrow one.

I don't think this scene tells us as much about the undead as it tells us about Redcloak's psyche.

[danielxcutter]

I think the precise method of killing her also says more about Redcloak than the undead itself - at that point, he really could have coup-de-graced her, or otherwise used some spell to kill her quickly.

Oh sure, Tsukiko was a crazy bitch, but let's be realistic, if he was being 100% pragmatic he wouldn't have had killed her like that. And frankly, Command Undead is more like an advanced Domination effect than anything.

[hroþila]

When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

[Fyraltari]

Also it's a rare kind of author who uses thr villain as their mouthpiece.

[danielxcutter]

When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

Yeah, the big reason he specified undead is really because that’s Tsukiko’s schtick.

[Psyren]

I'm pretty sure the Giant has made his opinion on undead very clear (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html).

Granted, we're definitely not supposed to agree with everything Redcloak says at all times, but to me the framing of that page very much reads like an author trying to get a point across.

I think both can be true - that undead are presumptively dangerous to the living, but also that Redcloak is deluded when he thinks controlling them is the best means available to achieve his ends.


When the wight scene and Redcloak's speech on the undead comes up I always like to point out that he treats bone-and-flesh goblinoids as tools too, and that an array of spells to mentally control living creatures exists.

Living control spells are far more limited though. Part of the point of the Tsukiko scene wasn't to show you that Redcloak's worldview of undead was 100% right, rather it's to show you that undead control doesn't have any of the safety clauses (like actions against a subject's nature (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html)) that the living versions do. That alone makes assuming undead autonomy should be on par with that of the living to be an inherently more dangerous stance to hold.

Concluding therefore that destroying even undead who aren't actively threatening someone can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

[hamishspence]

To be fair, many cleric domains grant similar levels of control for non-undead.

An Earth Domain cleric can control creatures with the Earth subtype. Same with other "elemental domains".
A Plant Domain cleric can control creatures with the Plant type - even intelligent ones.
A Scalykind Domain cleric can control creatures with the Reptilian subtype.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, many cleric domains grant similar levels of control for non-undead.

An Earth Domain cleric can control creatures with the Earth subtype. Same with other "elemental domains".
A Plant Domain cleric can control creatures with the Plant type - even intelligent ones.
A Scalykind Domain cleric can control creatures with the Reptilian subtype.

Clearly ecological devastion can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

[Psyren]

Clearly ecological devastion can be right, or at least not wrong, because of that danger.

What ecosystem are undead part of? What negative impact would destroying all of them have on the world?

[Fyraltari]

What ecosystem are undead part of? What negative impact would destroying all of them have on the world?
That's not a one-to-one analogy, I'll grant you.

[Dion]

What ecosystem are undead part of?

I believe undead are responsible for overripe bananas. So it’s mostly the banana bread ecology.

[RatElemental]

I believe undead are responsible for overripe bananas. So it’s mostly the banana bread ecology.

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

[Dion]

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

That’s only true if you consider a sentient mosquitos who can turn you into a mosquito an apex predator.

(I mean, sure… mosquitos kill more people than all the other animals put together, even including other people! So I guess they’re apex?)

[Psyren]

Certain varieties of undead are also the primary predators of humans, dwarves, elves, halflings, orcs, etc. Apex predators are a vital niche in any ecosystem.

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually. And if you got rid of every last one of them, the real "apex predators" like Dragons and Mindflayers would still exist and actually reach an equilibrium.

Undead are a pestilence that, if it weren't for faiths specifically designed to artificially keep them in check, would have overrun the living long since.

[Peelee]

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually.

Is it too trite at this point if I pull out humans as analogous here?:smalltongue:

[The MunchKING]

They're not. For starters, apex predators self-regulate by reducing their numbers if they start to overconsume their supply; Shadows and Wights and Mohrgs etc don't care, left alone they'll devour every living thing on the planet eventually.

Apex predators don't INTENTIONALLY self regulate, except maybe spreading out further if they're looking for food. They just starve to death if they over consume the supply.

Likewise, it's implied wraiths and other things that need to eat can lose their vital force.

[RatElemental]

My mistake, forgot to make my previous post blue.

[Psyren]

Is it too trite at this point if I pull out humans as analogous here?:smalltongue:

The planet will survive us, one way or another :smalltongue:



Likewise, it's implied wraiths and other things that need to eat can lose their vital force.

They don't starve actually; the craving builds to the point that they'll lose control the next time they're faced with whatever it is they eat, but they can't actually die. Nor can they truly be sated. Both are pretty massive problems for an ecosystem without outside intervention, which is exactly what clerics represent.

[RatElemental]

They don't starve actually; the craving builds to the point that they'll lose control the next time they're faced with whatever it is they eat, but they can't actually die. Nor can they truly be sated. Both are pretty massive problems for an ecosystem without outside intervention, which is exactly what clerics represent.

Not entirely true. The Libris Mortis described some undead as having diet dependencies. While they couldn't be destroyed by being deprived for too long, they could enter a state of permanent (until somehow fed) immobility if they went long enough without feeding.

[Psyren]

Not entirely true. The Libris Mortis described some undead as having diet dependencies. While they couldn't be destroyed by being deprived for too long, they could enter a state of permanent (until somehow fed) immobility if they went long enough without feeding.

I was responding specifically to his point about wraiths, which fall under "inescapable craving" rather than "diet-dependent" (LM 9). IIRC, no incorporeal undead are diet-dependent.

Vampires and Ghouls are diet-dependent, and those can become immobile (but never dormant, they'll pounce on anything that gets close - which, being corporeal and thus "squishy", they'll get at least a rat sooner or later.)