Means to kill Lolth? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Rebel7284

2021-10-12, 08:55 PM

Teleport Through Time is a spell, so if your DM gives you access to it, then you can. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b (formatting seems slightly broken)
The page explicitly says something about being in Faerun to boot.

Another option, without time travel, could be to become a deity with higher divine rank than Lolth and go from there.

AlexanderML

2021-10-12, 09:52 PM

Is time travel a thing on Faerun?

I remember some 2e Faerun stuff about time travel, specifically how you couldn't use the chronomancer spells to go back to before Karsus's folly because the goddess of magic would stop you unless you use a spell she made for the purpose.

Not sure if any of that matters in 3e Faerun. Probably not.

About killing Lolth, if you could kill enough of her followers I think she'd fall from divinity/go into a god-nap.

Tiktakkat

2021-10-12, 11:12 PM

As mentioned, there is the AD&D adventure Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits. I ran it back in the day and the PCs were able to brutally murderlyze Lolth with extreme prejudice. Her -10 AC did not help, and her 66 hp guaranteed she would not survive long enough to use her escape route.
That adventure does have the option to add the "standard" lesser deity powers in addition to her basic demon lady stats. Doing so should guarantee a TPK, but PCs can get lucky.

There is a 3.5 adventure, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, where the PCs get to go and try to kill Lolth again. However, 3.5 presumes that you never get to fight actual deities, only their aspects.
I ran this as well, with a group who optimized their builds for killing demons. Which they did. Even worse than the AD&D group. They walked their way through the grand finale encounter, not slowing down for a minute as they mowed down aspects left, right, and center, then killed some other things hanging about because why not.

The AD&D adventure is for 10th-14th level, the 3.5 version is for 9th-12th level. With either one you would have to do some hefty upgrading for characters above 15th level.

If you want inspiration for that, I would point you at the end of the Savage Tide adventure path in Dungeon 147-150, for levels 17-21. There are enough CR 20-32 demon lord and other stats there to provide inspiration for a high CR aspect of Lolth.

Warder

2021-10-13, 03:48 AM

Is time travel a thing on Faerun?

It exists, but it's very limited. Mystra disapproves and the Knights Paradoxical (followers of Labelas Enoreth) guard time portals and try to destroy or hide sources of time travel. You can't travel forward in time, and travelling backwards imposes limits on what you can bring with you and take back. If I recall right, when you travel backwards in time you can't control when you return - the chance to return always happens one year after your arrival, and if you miss the opportunity to go back you may be stuck. This is all stuff from memory, so it might not be 100% accurate.

loky1109

2021-10-13, 04:34 AM

You can't travel forward in time.

Of course you can. Everybody can and everybody must. Every second of life we travel one second forward in time.

Warder

2021-10-13, 05:18 AM

Of course you can. Everybody can and everybody must. Every second of life we travel one second forward in time.

I didn't even need to memorize Detect Technicalities this morning to feel the intense aura from that reply. ;)

loky1109

2021-10-13, 05:37 AM

I didn't even need to memorize Detect Technicalities this morning to feel the intense aura from that reply. ;)

Ok. If you talk about travel forward more time - years, centuries, I still don't see any problems. Temporal stasis, imprisonment, or some like. Its are literally long distance time travels. What can hinder?

Puke

2021-10-13, 07:56 AM

I have used time travels in my campaigns, and the DM I play with did as well.

The way we see it, you need to use epic magic one way or another. Only an artifact made from the rarest material and an epic ritual, along with the support of the current god of magic and/or time would allow you to travel back in time.

But we never allowed a character to come back. It's one way only. Also, we ruled that Inevitables would always be aware you traveled back in time, and would try to erase you if you happen to even slightly alter the timeline.

However to get back on the topic, there are a lot of dugeons you can use. Some levels of Dungeon of the Mad Mage might do just well.

Do not forget however, she resides in the Demonweb Pits.

And remember how powerful a god is in his realm.

aglondier

2021-10-13, 08:06 AM

Eh, anyone can kill a god, some idiot provided stats for them after all...

...but what happens next? What happens to the drow when their principal deity is brutally murdered? The shock of her death will reverberate through her worshippers and priesthood, sending them either into a depressive spiral or an unquenchable rage.

Without Lolth and her priesthood to keep them contained and inward focused...what are all those drow going to do?

ThanatosZero

2021-10-13, 12:47 PM

Mostly the same might occur as it did with the Calm.

Eilistraee and Vhaeraun of the Dark Seldarine will most likely be the first to jump on the opportunity to fill in the power vacuum left by Lloth. The other members Kiaransalee, Selvetarm and Ghaunadaur will most likely gain more followers from the female drow, which reject Eilistraee's dogma. Most of the male drow will very likely accept Vhaeraun with open arms and cause a shift, where patriach houses will emerge in drow society.

I predict Vhaeraun gaining the most worshipers.

Vaern

2021-10-14, 04:44 AM

You can't travel forward in time

You could hit yourself with Temporal Stasis and have a contingent Dispel Magic/Disjunction set to free you at the designated time. You will be released at your desired point in the future and, from your perspective, the trip will have been instantaneous and no time will have passed at all.

Warder

2021-10-14, 05:35 AM

You could hit yourself with Temporal Stasis and have a contingent Dispel Magic/Disjunction set to free you at the designated time. You will be released at your desired point in the future and, from your perspective, the trip will have been instantaneous and no time will have passed at all.

Yes yes, absolutely, but that comes with other people being able to find you and disjunct you or whatnot - it's not what I was talking about. I meant that there is supposed to be no way to use magic to instantly move yourself from your present place in the timeline to a future spot in the timeline, apart from the return window if you've travelled in the past. Or to rephrase myself, Chronomancy in the Forgotten Realms takes you backwards through time, never forward. To the best of my recollection, at least!

loky1109

2021-10-14, 07:45 AM

Yes yes, absolutely, but that comes with other people being able to find you and disjunct you or whatnot - it's not what I was talking about. I meant that there is supposed to be no way to use magic to instantly move , apart from the return window if you've travelled in the past. Or to rephrase myself, Chronomancy in the Forgotten Realms takes you backwards through time, never forward. To the best of my recollection, at least!
Teleport doesn't became not-teleport because of it can be intercepted.
I don't see any difference between stasis and "instantly move yourself from your present place in the timeline to a future spot in the timeline" these are literally fully equivalents.

Warder

2021-10-14, 11:11 AM

Teleport doesn't became not-teleport because of it can be intercepted.
I don't see any difference between stasis and "instantly move yourself from your present place in the timeline to a future spot in the timeline" these are literally fully equivalents.

I really have no interest in arguing this point? Yes you can find ways to place yourself into stasis so you can experience a far future. No, chronomancy can't move you forward in the timeline. Are we all agreed those are two different things that can coexist - if so, can we please table this sort-of-pointless discussion, finally. :P

Feantar

2021-10-14, 11:30 AM

Well, since in deities and demigods there's that weird paragraph about only deities of equal or higher divine rank can kill gods permanently, you might be in a bind... and then you realise that Llolth has so many enemies you just have to pick one. Now, from what I can find, Llolth has a divine rank of 16. Corellon Larethian has a divine rank of 19. We don't have specific ranks for other Seldarine, but Angharradh is also considered a greater deity, so she has a higher rank than Llolth as well. So, you need to have the assistance of the Seldarine to kill Llolth permanently. Or of some other greater deity really. I don't really think they need to deliver the killing blow, I'd rule it as they might have to be present, or assisting you in some way (maybe use an artifact).

[...] However, 3.5 presumes that you never get to fight actual deities, only their aspects. [...]

Um, Actually™ that's wrong... you can fight gods, they have stats - they are not aspects, they are the actual deities. The only beings that have -only- aspect stats (through a retcon from 3.0 BoVD to 3.5) are the top outer-plane exemplars (Demon Princes, Archdevils, Hebdomad, etc). Which I always found pretty funny. "Oh of course you can off Moradin, but Bel, no no no, Bel is too fundamentally important to fight directly".

Gnaeus

2021-10-14, 01:16 PM

Deities and demigods actually gives the DM several options.

One is that deities are unkillable.
Another is that the stat blocks assume an overwhelming challenge to a near epic party and encourages the DM to crank the difficulty as parties go up in power.
A third is that they can only be killed by other deities.
In other places it points out that deities have super genius intelligence, infinite time and infinite resources. They can carry any magic item they can be bothered to pick up. Or custom items. They can have literal armies of high CR followers. They can call on the aid of other members of their pantheon.

They can literally be any CR encounter you want them to be.

Brackenlord

2021-10-14, 01:51 PM

As been pointed, ending a deity by RAW or RAI requires a DM Ex Machina of some sort.

If killing Lolth was the prerrogative of my game I would probe my player's expectations of how they would go about it and plant the seeds accordingly.

• Would they like to conquer the Epic levels and research some sort of Deicide (https://scryfall.com/card/jou/7/deicide) spell;
• Perhaps becoming gods themselves to match her prowess;
• I'm particular to the cultist route of unleashing an Elder Evil to undo both gods and reality.

Crake

2021-10-15, 06:07 AM

Not exactly killing Lolth, but I had the players in my campaign accidentally assist in the resurrection of Lolth one time. Funnily enough, Lolth herself was actually a red herring for the campaign itself.

RNightstalker

2021-10-24, 11:38 PM

Well, since in deities and demigods there's that weird paragraph about only deities of equal or higher divine rank can kill gods permanently, you might be in a bind... and then you realise that Llolth has so many enemies you just have to pick one. Now, from what I can find, Llolth has a divine rank of 16. Corellon Larethian has a divine rank of 19. We don't have specific ranks for other Seldarine, but Angharradh is also considered a greater deity, so she has a higher rank than Llolth as well. So, you need to have the assistance of the Seldarine to kill Llolth permanently. Or of some other greater deity really. I don't really think they need to deliver the killing blow, I'd rule it as they might have to be present, or assisting you in some way (maybe use an artifact).

Um, Actually™ that's wrong... you can fight gods, they have stats - they are not aspects, they are the actual deities. The only beings that have -only- aspect stats (through a retcon from 3.0 BoVD to 3.5) are the top outer-plane exemplars (Demon Princes, Archdevils, Hebdomad, etc). Which I always found pretty funny. "Oh of course you can off Moradin, but Bel, no no no, Bel is too fundamentally important to fight directly".

What really makes killing a deity tough/interesting is one the benefits of a high enough divine rank: always rolling a natural 20, for which they both qualify.

Malphegor

2021-10-25, 06:03 AM

There is a poison in one of the fey articles that can make any immortal mortal.

She’d still be a god, but if you can make her actual self, the demon queen of spiders and the dark elves, who do poison a lot, to drink this physical poison, then it’s theoretically just a matter of killing her actual body

(The DC is low for what we want though)

RNightstalker

2021-10-25, 09:47 PM

(The DC is low for what we want though)

Doesn't matter what the DC is: due to divine rank she passes every saving throw.

Crake

2021-10-26, 12:01 AM

Yes yes, absolutely, but that comes with other people being able to find you and disjunct you or whatnot - it's not what I was talking about. I meant that there is supposed to be no way to use magic to instantly move yourself from your present place in the timeline to a future spot in the timeline, apart from the return window if you've travelled in the past. Or to rephrase myself, Chronomancy in the Forgotten Realms takes you backwards through time, never forward. To the best of my recollection, at least!

Sure there is. The time hop psionic power is a level 3 psionic power that pushes you forward in time for 1 round/level. As this is considered the "duration" this could be metapowered to longer durations, or even potentially converted into a spell and cast with persist to last a day. It could also easily be used as the basis for spell/power research to develop something that lasts significantly longer at a higher spell/power level.

Yael

2021-10-31, 03:42 AM