Mold Earth and Flaming Sphere

[Sillybird99]

Is it realistic or practical to use mold earth to excavate the earth someone is standing on?

Also, assuming they remain in the same square, now a 5ft pit, is there any reason why you couldn't conjure or move a flaming sphere on top of the hole?

I'm looking for both RAW and subjective DM answers.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is it realistic or practical to use mold earth to excavate the earth someone is standing on?

Also, assuming they remain in the same square, now a 5ft pit, is there any reason why you couldn't conjure or move a flaming sphere on top of the hole?

I'm looking for both RAW and subjective DM answers.
One caster or two? On their turn, climbing out of a 5' hole is a trivial matter.

[Sillybird99]

Number of casters doesn't matter. A single caster could do it on one turn if flaming sphere was already cast. They can move it as a bonus action.

[Christew]

Is it realistic or practical to use mold earth to excavate the earth someone is standing on?

Also, assuming they remain in the same square, now a 5ft pit, is there any reason why you couldn't conjure or move a flaming sphere on top of the hole?

I'm looking for both RAW and subjective DM answers.
Given that flaming sphere's damage triggers when a creature ends it's turn within 5 feet of the sphere or is rammed by the sphere, I'm not sure what even the most permissive interpretation would gain you here.

If you ram the creature in the hole, it is the same effect as if the creature were not in a hole. If you place the sphere on top of the hole without ramming the creature, the creature can climb out and move away from the sphere without damage (since they end their turn more than 5 feet away).

[quindraco]

Is it realistic or practical to use mold earth to excavate the earth someone is standing on?

Also, assuming they remain in the same square, now a 5ft pit, is there any reason why you couldn't conjure or move a flaming sphere on top of the hole?

I'm looking for both RAW and subjective DM answers.

1) Yes, assuming they're standing on loose earth. Almost nothing qualifies as loose earth.
2) You could certainly do that. The sphere would fall into the hole.

[Sillybird99]

I was thinking of trapping the creature in the hole, or making it more difficult for them to get out. Also using the pile of earth that is excavated in combination with the sphere to limit their options for moving.

Wouldn't loose earth include most non-stone ground?

[KorvinStarmast]

Number of casters doesn't matter. A single caster could do it on one turn if flaming sphere was already cast. They can move it as a bonus action. Then have the courtesy to mention that in your problem statement.

[Christew]

I was thinking of trapping the creature in the hole, or making it more difficult for them to get out. Also using the pile of earth that is excavated in combination with the sphere to limit their options for moving.

Wouldn't loose earth include most non-stone ground?
While the imagery makes sense, neither a 5 ft hole nor a flaming sphere offer any real impediment to movement.

To those who give any credence to the words of JC, his take on it is "Think dirt, not stone." I think the way I've seen it most often applied is: if you can shovel it, you can use Mold Earth on it.

That said, given that it is a cantrip, I think the tendency is to default to the least powerful interpretations of ambiguous language (re: trapping a creature in a hole).

[Eldariel]

1) Yes, assuming they're standing on loose earth. Almost nothing qualifies as loose earth.

This claim has no grounds in RAW, it's just an interpretation by an individual DM. Crawford suggests that anything you can shovel is fine for the spell (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/139836/what-counts-as-loose-earth-for-the-mold-earth-spell) for instance. There's some grey area like forests with thick undergrowth (this ruling would suggest that you could excavate all the soil leaving just the roots there), but it's going to vary DM from DM.

[Gignere]

While the imagery makes sense, neither a 5 ft hole nor a flaming sphere offer any real impediment to movement.

To those who give any credence to the words of JC, his take on it is "Think dirt, not stone." I think the way I've seen it most often applied is: if you can shovel it, you can use Mold Earth on it.

That said, given that it is a cantrip, I think the tendency is to default to the least powerful interpretations of ambiguous language (re: trapping a creature in a hole).

I think what’s more interesting is if you can quicken mold earth what happens when you open a 5 ft pit beneath an enemy and then cast mold earth again to fill the pit again?

If you use real world physics to rule basically most creatures will be restrained and if they are short enough probably suffocating. Likely with no way to even get out without help.

However this might be overpowered for a cantrip.

[KorvinStarmast]

While the imagery makes sense, neither a 5 ft hole nor a flaming sphere offer any real impediment to movement. {snip} That said, given that it is a cantrip, I think the tendency is to default to the least powerful interpretations of ambiguous language (re: trapping a creature in a hole). That's a sensible approach. (Though the 5 x 5 x 5 giant ice cubes shape water can make ended up blocking a passage for partial cover during a recent raid into the sahuagin fortress! My players are clever). :smallsmile:
I think what’s more interesting is if you can quicken mold earth what happens when you open a 5 ft pit beneath an enemy and then cast mold earth again to fill the pit again? I think the only part of the pit 'filled' is where the creature isn't. Mabye difficult terrain to get out. (Unless they are a kneeling gnome?)


If you use real world physics to rule basically most creatures will be restrained Nope. The dirt that came out is looser, having been dug, than what was their originally, so you don't end up with packed earth when you fill in. That's real world digging and filling. :smalltongue: (It takes time and effort to tamp town the dug up earth to restore original density and firmness).

However this might be overpowered for a cantrip. Yeah, the 'restrained' condition would be OP for a cantrip. +1 :smallsmile:

[Christew]

That's a sensible approach. (Though the 5 x 5 x 5 giant ice cubes shape water can make ended up blocking a passage for partial cover during a recent raid into the sahuagin fortress! My players are clever). :smallsmile:
Good one! I do find that Shape Water ends up being far and away the most versatile/useful of the "manipulate element" cantrips.

Seconded that restrained is too much for a cantrip (even if the proposed usage requires a class feature).

[Gignere]

That's a sensible approach. (Though the 5 x 5 x 5 giant ice cubes shape water can make ended up blocking a passage for partial cover during a recent raid into the sahuagin fortress! My players are clever). :smallsmile: I think the only part of the pit 'filled' is where the creature isn't. Mabye difficult terrain to get out. (Unless they are a kneeling gnome?)

Nope. The dirt that came out is looser, having been dug, than what was their originally, so you don't end up with packed earth when you fill in. That's real world digging and filling. :smalltongue: (It takes time and effort to tamp town the dug up earth to restore original density and firmness).
Yeah, the 'restrained' condition would be OP for a cantrip. +1 :smallsmile:

I guess you’ve never been buried at the beach. Doesn’t matter the sand is loose you really can’t get out of it without you digging through it. It will take way longer then 6 seconds to do so, that’s assuming your arms were free to begin with if buried neck deep you basically can’t do anything until your friends or kids dig you out.

[Eldariel]

I think what’s more interesting is if you can quicken mold earth what happens when you open a 5 ft pit beneath an enemy and then cast mold earth again to fill the pit again?

If you use real world physics to rule basically most creatures will be restrained and if they are short enough probably suffocating. Likely with no way to even get out without help.

However this might be overpowered for a cantrip.

I personally do allow it but with a Dex-save on both, avoiding falling to the pit and getting covered. It's specifically a slow enough process to not cause damage so the subject should have plenty of time to avoid it.


I guess you’ve never been buried at the beach. Doesn’t matter the sand is loose you really can’t get out of it without you digging through it. It will take way longer then 6 seconds to do so, that’s assuming your arms were free to begin with if buried neck deep you basically can’t do anything until your friends or kids dig you out.

Yeah, basically you have to move the whole (ton) of sand with your muscles to get out. Even a Str 30 creature would likely have trouble against a fairly small amount of loose soil since movement is restricted so that to get any traction and speed at all, you need to move the whole mass (it's like standing leap vs. running leap except for every muscle of your body).

[Gignere]

Yeah, basically you have to move the whole (ton) of sand with your muscles to get out. Even a Str 30 creature would likely have trouble against a fairly small amount of loose soil since movement is restricted so that to get any traction and speed at all, you need to move the whole mass (it's like standing leap vs. running leap except for every muscle of your body).

If you can cast mold earth irl it would be the most overpowered cantrip. Moving 5x5x5 cube of earth, even loose earth, in 6 seconds is faster than anything we have irl technology to do, other than tnt blasting the crap out of it.