OOTS #1246 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Lord Raziere]

ah yes "please".....the most subtle of tricks....:smallconfused:

[Kranerian]

Elan vs. Sunny, a battle of wits for the ages.

[Psyren]

Really... hoping.... V.... isn't.... slowed.... again.

[Ivrytwr]

Wonder what our back-up dwarf is doing?
Politeness fell a little short Elan!
Thanks Giant!

[danielxcutter]

So, I'm guessing V got zapped with either Confusion or Charm Monster(and is going to spend a few rounds trying to kill Haley and Belkar) or Slow(and be completely useless in the chase).

I know this is because we're waiting weeks for an update, but boy do I want the Order to actually score a win here.

[Ruck]

Well, I guess Elan's charisma didn't work this time, but hey, it was worth a shot. (Maybe he'll still talk Sunny into helping the Order.)

I don't remember if people knew for sure what number eight does, but I mostly bring it up because The Simpsons has ruined my brain, and you know what I'm talking about if you were thinking about what I was thinking about when I read "number eight."

[WindStruck]

Finally! A worthy opponent!

Our battle will be legendary!

[link3710]

Good, the Sunny Elan friendship we all need is about to blossom.

[lukeskylicker]

So is Elan just being himself and politely asking to go around Sunny? Or is it tactical and he's keeping the anti-magic field out of the hole?

[Duncun]

Well, I guess Elan's charisma didn't work this time, but hey, it was worth a shot. (Maybe he'll still talk Sunny into helping the Order.)

I don't remember if people knew for sure what number eight does, but I mostly bring it up because The Simpsons has ruined my brain, and you know what I'm talking about if you were thinking about what I was thinking about when I read "number eight."

My guess is disintegrate.

[RMS Oceanic]

Elan was not trying to bluff or anything, he was just being polite. You can't change my mind. :smallbiggrin:

[NobleCuriosity]

So is Elan just being himself and politely asking to go around Sunny? Or is it tactical and he's keeping the anti-magic field out of the hole?

Possibly both? After all, I imagine it wouldn’t be good for bloodfeast to get restored to max size right now.

Also, Sunny is adorable.

[Peelee]

To know Sunny is to love Sunny.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Aw, cute! :smallsmile:

[Argis13]

So, V got hit by the eye directly to the right of the central eye. If it's consistent with the eye layout in 1241 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1241.html), that should be the eye that Minrah got hit with, the sleep beam.

[Ornithologist]

I'm pretty much all in for more Sunny and Elan time. Also, its likely the best place for Elan to spend his combat time.

[Psyren]

So, I'm guessing V got zapped with either Confusion or Charm Monster(and is going to spend a few rounds trying to kill Haley and Belkar) or Slow(and be completely useless in the chase).

No swirly eyes so I don't think it's those.

Slow wouldn't make them useless necessarily. Fly + Slow = regular movement speed, and it looks like Haley is carrying them anyway.

Sleep would just require a slap from Haley.

[kingcheesepants]

Elan being able to talk to Sunny without interference. This is an extremely promising development and I'm guessing it will be what finally turns things around for our heroes. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.

[Dion]

Pew pew pew!

[Rogan]

Sunny continues to be adorable.

I'm a bit confused about his tactic. He managed to hit V with a small eye, putting a spell on her. But the next move is looking with the big anti magic eye. Wouldn't he suppress his own effect this way?

I'm going to take a guess here:
Elan won't follow the chase and instead stay back to talk to sunny. When Haley, V and Belkar get back (with or without Sereni as prisoner), sunny will be friendly to the order.

[Gwynfrid]

The most lovable beholder ever. Great comic, thanks Giant!

[Dion]

Can I just say that following a rogue halfling with dimension door into a dark hole is an extraordinarily bad idea?

[NobleCuriosity]

Can I just say that following a rogue halfling with dimension door into a dark hole is an extraordinarily bad idea?

I mean, letting her go to spring another ambush on them later isn’t the best idea either. Also, the Order doesn’t know Serini has dimension door.

[Psyren]

I'm a bit confused about his tactic. He managed to hit V with a small eye, putting a spell on her. But the next move is looking with the big anti magic eye. Wouldn't he suppress his own effect this way?

Yes but the cone also has a maximum range. He might have been trying to keep Haley from, say, activating her boots as long as possible.



I'm going to take a guess here:
Elan won't follow the chase and instead stay back to talk to sunny. When Haley, V and Belkar get back (with or without Sereni as prisoner), sunny will be friendly to the order.

This seems likely yeah.

[KorvinStarmast]

So is Elan just being himself and politely asking to go around Sunny? Or is it tactical and he's keeping the anti-magic field out of the hole? Perhaps the answer is "both" in this case, given the ingratiating grin in the final panel. Elan is also, perhaps, being subtle in a tactical sense. The anti magic ray is no longer pointed toward V, but toward him, and V is in pursuit of Serini. This opens up V's magic for capturing Serini.

To know Sunny is to love Sunny. Now on sale for Christmas 2021, the Sunny plushie doll/stuffed animal. (One can only hope)

So, V got hit by the eye directly to the right of the central eye. If it's consistent with the eye layout in 1241 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1241.html), that should be the eye that Minrah got hit with, the sleep beam. If you are right, and I'll drop a quataloo on you being right, elves are immune to magical sleep so it should have no effect on V.

Points to enjoy:
1. Haley is thinking ahead. (Sees that there must be an escape plan).
2. Hole-in-the-wall gang is now V, Haley, and Belkar. (Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, the RL Hole in the Wall gang).
3. Non-lethal use of disintegrate (I appreciate innovative uses of spells).
4. Panel 9: aaww, sweet Sunny moment. :smallsmile:
5. The cliff hanger: now that Sunny has turned his anti-magic eye back on, what magical effect across the room, off screen, is going to be dispelled? Will Durkon turn back to flesh? (Not sure how that might work in 3.5e).

[danielxcutter]

Frankly, if Serini gets away I don’t see how the plot would move forwards - if Rich does have that planned out I assume it’ll all work out, but taking out Xykon and convincing Redcloak while worrying about Serini’s epic ambush BS is a tall order for parties infinitely more optimized than, well, the Order.

Betting Haley might get some mileage out of those boots; Serini should only have a 20 ft. movement speed and Haley with Haste has three times that.

[Quebbster]

Nice to see what number eight was already.
(Disappointed it wasn't a single plum floating in perfume in a man's hat though).

[Psyren]

Now on sale for Christmas 2021, the Sunny plushie doll/stuffed animal. (One can only hope)

Given what Sunny is, I wouldn't hold my breath for that one.


If you are right, and I'll drop a quataloo on you being right, elves are immune to magical sleep so it should have no effect on V.

*slaps forehead*

I keep forgetting that! That would be excellent.

[Frozenstep]

A perfect chance for Elan to talk Sunny down. Even if Serini gets away, this might be all the order needs.

[Shining Wrath]

Of course Serini knows the layout of her own dungeon and thus where #8 should fire.
Now, once again, we've split the party; Elan is not going to succeed in persuading Sunny to get out of the way, and Sunny is quite willing to die fighting to buy "Mom" time. And Roy is not on his feet yet, although quite a bit could be happening off screen with Durkon, Minrah, and Roy.

[Crusher]

And this is where the Order finally takes the upper hand: Elan vs Sunny.

Diplomacy vs vulnerability to Diplomacy.

[Shining Wrath]

Possibly both? After all, I imagine it wouldn’t be good for bloodfeast to get restored to max size right now.

Also, Sunny is adorable.

We know need a favorite monstrous sidekick contest: Sunny versus Grayview!


So, V got hit by the eye directly to the right of the central eye. If it's consistent with the eye layout in 1241 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1241.html), that should be the eye that Minrah got hit with, the sleep beam.

And as a person of elf, Vaarsuvius would simply ignore a sleep ray. Sunny may not have known that, or just fired eye beams more or less at random. Also, Sunny's aim is poor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Now, once again, we've split the party; Wasn't there a whole book about that? :smallbiggrin:

[danielxcutter]

Wasn't there a whole book about that? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, I think it was called… uh, No Cure For the Paladin Blues. :smalltongue:

[Shining Wrath]

Wasn't there a whole book about that? :smallbiggrin:

Yes, and anyone not nervous about Serini versus only 3 of the order, ought to be. OTOH, she lacks a crossbow, so V can rain spells upon her.

[The MunchKING]

Wasn't there a whole book about that? :smallbiggrin:

Snips Snails and Dragon Tails?

[danielxcutter]

Yes, and anyone not nervous about Serini versus only 3 of the order, ought to be. OTOH, she lacks a crossbow, so V can rain spells upon her.

I suspect that’s specifically why V got zapped by Sunny at the tail end of this comic.

[smuchmuch]

5. The cliff hanger: now that Sunny has turned his anti-magic eye back on, what magical effect across the room, off screen, is going to be dispelled? Will Durkon turn back to flesh? (Not sure how that might work in 3.5e).

Could be wrong but I do not believe that anti magic can reverse petrification effect, especialy if it comes from a supernatural ability rather than the flesh to stone spell, once the petrification is complete.
It might reverse Bloodfeast the Xerminator back to a dinosaur if the lizard was in the cone radius (but I doubt it, Belkar probably took em back with him.)

[danielxcutter]

Could be wrong but I do not believe that anti magic can reverse petrification effect, especialy if it comes from a supernatural ability rather than the flesh to stone spell, once the petrification is complete.
It might reverse Bloodfeast the Xerminator back to a dinosaur if the lizard was in the cone radius (but I doubt it, Belkar probably took em back with him.)

I don’t think that’s how it works. Petrification is pretty specific IIRC.

[The MunchKING]

I don't remember if people knew for sure what number eight does, but I mostly bring it up because The Simpsons has ruined my brain, and you know what I'm talking about if you were thinking about what I was thinking about when I read "number eight."

When he said he wouldn't use it on people earlier every one assumed it was disintegrate.


So is Elan just being himself and politely asking to go around Sunny? Or is it tactical and he's keeping the anti-magic field out of the hole?

I hadn't thought of that interpretation.

[SlashDash]

So is Elan just being himself and politely asking to go around Sunny? Or is it tactical and he's keeping the anti-magic field out of the hole?
As Durkon told Hinjo, Elan has Ignorance as a power source.
My guess is, he had no idea this would be the side effect of his action and he was just being nice. But it worked out regardless as he usually does.


Can I just say that following a rogue halfling with dimension door into a dark hole is an extraordinarily bad idea?
It's not a dimension door, Sunny used a disintegrate beam to create a hole.



Betting Haley might get some mileage out of those boots; Serini should only have a 20 ft. movement speed and Haley with Haste has three times that.
I think it's unlikely for someone of Serini's caliber not to have her own boosts to speed from items.

Plus wouldn't surprise me if she has more ally monsters in the dungeon, so she could get another mount soon.

Also, even from a plotting point of view, even if Serini just runs away, Sunny is still behind and he could talk to Order and learn from them some things that once he tells Serini, she might think twice about attacking again.

Obviously, we haven't heard the last of her even assuming she completely flees this encounter.

[danielxcutter]

When he said he wouldn't use it on people earlier every one assumed it was disintegrate.

Untrue; some people guessed that it was Finger of Death :p

[SlashDash]

Side note :
I recall Roy saying earlier, he doesn't just think the trap was meant to keep people away from what's inside but also seems to keep things inside from coming out.

Which makes me wonder if there's some really powerful monster in the dungeon and Serini is trying to lead the group to it perhaps?

[Peelee]

It's not a dimension door, Sunny used a disintegrate beam to create a hole.

Yes, Sunny has disintegrate, but Serini has a wand of Dimension Door.

[danielxcutter]

For what it's worth, if Serini is trying to escape through there it's probably not that deep a hole.

[The MunchKING]

Untrue; some people guessed that it was Finger of Death :p

The implication was "Everyone I remembered saying anything about it" :smallwink:

[littlebum2002]

Given what Sunny is, I wouldn't hold my breath for that one

Given what Sunny is, there are also dozens of stuffed animals of "Sunny" available for purchase already. Just not from here.

EDIT: This one (https://www.kidrobot.com/products/dungeons-dragons-beholder-phunny-plush?variant=39397994856545) is particularly adorable

[Rogan]

Of course Serini knows the layout of her own dungeon and thus where #8 should fire.
Now, once again, we've split the party; Elan is not going to succeed in persuading Sunny to get out of the way, and Sunny is quite willing to die fighting to buy "Mom" time. And Roy is not on his feet yet, although quite a bit could be happening off screen with Durkon, Minrah, and Roy.

If I were the betting type, I would bet you 5GP that Sunny is not going to die fighting. In fact, I don't think anybody left behind will even try to fight Sunny.

[Psyren]

Given what Sunny is, there are also dozens of stuffed animals of "Sunny" available for purchase already. Just not from here.

EDIT: This one (https://www.kidrobot.com/products/dungeons-dragons-beholder-phunny-plush?variant=39397994856545) is particularly adorable

Right, but those are officially licensed. Note their use of the brand name.


If I were the betting type, I would bet you 5GP that Sunny is not going to die fighting. In fact, I don't think anybody left behind will even try to fight Sunny.

Agreed, in fact Elan is probably the best possible person to be left behind with him.

Hopefully Elan woke up Roy also (since Durkon failed to.)

[Skull the Troll]

Given what Sunny is, there are also dozens of stuffed animals of "Sunny" available for purchase already. Just not from here.

EDIT: This one (https://www.kidrobot.com/products/dungeons-dragons-beholder-phunny-plush?variant=39397994856545) is particularly adorable

Anyone know how to crochet? (https://www.etsy.com/listing/724384176/halloween-pumpkin-beholder-plushie)

[Tvtyrant]

So can Sunny and Serini replace Belkar on the party?

[Wintermoot]

I'm glad the "is eye 8 is disintegrate or finger of death" debate is resolved even if I was on the losing side.

If there is going to be a comic of Elan and Sunny calmly discussing things I just really want to see Franklin slowly crawling to the wall then up the wall to happen in the background. If only so seven strips later with team Haley returns and wakes up Roy, Franklin can end a strip by falling on Haley again.

[KorvinStarmast]

So can Sunny and Serini replace Belkar on the party?
Serini is not going to play second fiddle to Roy nor to Haley. She's an epic level rogue, Roy has a Rogue who is his second in command; Belkar is a foot soldier.
Not gonna happen.
Might Sunny ally with the Order at some point? It would be cool if he did; he and Elan have so far had a good chemistry on screen.
Beyond that, nobody can really replace Belkar; his position in the Order is unique to him. :belkar:

If there is going to be a comic of Elan and Sunny calmly discussing things I just really want to see Franklin slowly crawling to the wall then up the wall to happen in the background. If only so seven strips later with team Haley returns and wakes up Roy, Franklin can end a strip by falling on Haley again.Rich has used running gags before. (Most recently "has anybody seen Durkon?" got pulled up).

[Ionathus]

What a delightful strip. Elan, you silver-tongued devil, you almost had it!


I know this is because we're waiting weeks for an update, but boy do I want the Order to actually score a win here.

I'd say they already are -- or at least have scored a partial win that they're still trying to convert into a complete one. Serini is on the run and separated from Sunny, her strongest ally (that we've seen).


Elan being able to talk to Sunny without interference. This is an extremely promising development and I'm guessing it will be what finally turns things around for our heroes. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.

Agreed! I'd bet a truckload of quatloos that Sunny is about to have a chat with Elan, Durkon, Roy, and Minrah that completely changes their (Sunny's) mind on the situation, while the Non-Diplomacy Gang is off chasing Serini...


And as a person of elf,

Beautiful.


I don’t think that’s how it works. Petrification is pretty specific IIRC.

I don't know how it is in 3.5e, but the beholder lore for 5e says that they decorate their lairs with petrified adventurers. My guess is that their AMF eye doesn't negate petrification because that would be a pretty big pain in the butt, day-to-day.


For what it's worth, if Serini is trying to escape through there it's probably not that deep a hole.

I got the impression Sunny was making a hole in a wall, and Serini escaped to the room beyond.

[Thecommander236]

Yeah, they are chasing her, but now it's 3 v 1 and they were losing 7 v 2. The odds haven't improved. In fact, they are worse.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't know how it is in 3.5e, but the beholder lore for 5e says that they decorate their lairs with petrified adventurers. My guess is that their AMF eye doesn't negate petrification because that would be a pretty big pain in the butt, day-to-day. Hmm, with two different editions accounted for, I am good with "nope, AMF will not unstone Durkon.

I got the impression Sunny was making a hole in a wall, and Serini escaped to the room beyond. Or into the passageway beyond, or into the cave beyond, or into the pit beyond, or into the hole beyond since she knows that there's a pit trap ... :smallbiggrin: (Rogue's gotta rogue)

[hamishspence]

My guess is that their AMF eye doesn't negate petrification because that would be a pretty big pain in the butt, day-to-day.


Since it suppresses but does not dispel magical things (even supernatural ones), it should actually suppress petrification, but only while the petrified being is in the field. Take it out of the field and the petrification effect reappears.

[npc revolution]

My guess is that Serini is escaping into the actual dungeon.

We know that both the Order and Serini have plans that give them the upper hand vs Xykon. If either group gets their way, Xykon doesn't find the backstage area (And I assume the Gate) for a while. To get Team Evil back into contention I think we need this struggle between the Order and Serini to clue Team Evil in.

So, Serini opens a hole into the real dungeon, and they all bump into Xykon. Personally I think the Order and Serini then split into two groups. I think Roy got a big dose of amnesia potion, if so then that puts Durkon and Elan in charge, that'll be fun to see.

[pendell]

As expected, Serini is breaking contact to fight another day.

Ah, Sunny vs. Elan. Truly a duel of wits -- or lack thereof -- for the ages. Here's hoping Elan can win Sunny over.

What eye did Vaarsuvius get hit with? It's not disintegration or petrification. Does anyone recognize what hit, or will we only find out in a few strips?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Ionathus]

Yeah, they are chasing her, but now it's 3 v 1 and they were losing 7 v 2. The odds haven't improved. In fact, they are worse.

I know I'm not a storytelling expert, but if you asked me for my overall read on this scene so far, it feels like it's set up to show that Serini is competent and prepared for lots of contingencies, and will probably try some further ambush tricks in the next room, but also that she is absolutely on the back foot and stubbornly refusing to talk -- to a fault.


Or into the passageway beyond, or into the cave beyond, or into the pit beyond, or into the hole beyond since she knows that there's a pit trap ... :smallbiggrin: (Rogue's gotta rogue)

Although, it would be truly delightful in an "early OotS incompetence humor" way if Sunny had just created, like, a 5-foot-deep hole in solid rock and Serini ran into a dead end :smallbiggrin:

My guess, though, is that we will continue to get a dynamic, thrilling, and imaginative chase sequence, with plenty of heart and humor in the dialogue. Oh, well. Guess we'll just have to slog through.

[Rogan]

What eye did Vaarsuvius get hit with? It's not disintegration or petrification. Does anyone recognize what hit, or will we only find out in a few strips?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Someone used the eye position to deduct it would be sleep. Which would not work on V at all, since Elf.

[Ionathus]

Someone used the eye position to deduct it would be sleep. Which would not work on V at all, since Elf.

Which makes a little more sense given that it was aimed at Haley, who yoinked V out of the way of their intended eye ray and into hers. And if Haley was thinking that far ahead and realized V would be immune to her intended effect, then she's truly got that admirable rogue's cunning!

[Peelee]

Someone used the eye position to deduct it would be sleep. Which would not work on V at all, since Elf.

Eye position doesn't work, though. Unless Elan actually got zapped by Disintegrate earlier, or Charm Person made the hole in the wall.

[danielxcutter]

:elan: So, uh, Sunny, why did you attack me and my friends?

Sunny: Because mom says you're going to blow up the world! I can't trust you!

:elan: (*makes several expressions of confusion and surprise*) ...Even I'm not dumb enough to do that twice.



Really, what are the odds of someone in the Order - probably Roy - getting frustrated that even after they've stopped being the inept random noobs that blunder into something, break a lot of stuff, and stop it from getting too much worse, they're still forced into that role?

[Wraithfighter]

Yeah, they are chasing her, but now it's 3 v 1 and they were losing 7 v 2. The odds haven't improved. In fact, they are worse.

Sure, that's one way of looking at it.

The other way is that the group being left behind is a petrified Durkon, a KO'd-by-poison Roy, a Cohort-power Minrah... and Elan. Yes, Elan's the most powerful current member of the group left behind.

And the group following her are Belkar, who's at full strength, Haley, who doesn't have her best weapon but has others on her because Rogue, and Vaarsuvius, who might be affected by one of the eyes but otherwise is a high-level wizard with dozens of spells available to cast (and hey, maybe he made his saving throw).

Including probably Dimensional Anchor, which would shut down Serini should she try to escape, since its also a spell that he would have likely prepared when originally planning on facing Xykon and Redcloak, who they know have teleportation magic.

Basically, just about everyone that was still capable of really fighting is chasing after Serini. It really depends on where she's running to, because Vaarsuvius alone is probably a lot more power than she's capable of beating.

Also also... look, she left Sunny alone in the room with Elan. Elan's not a great combatant, but he's a great charmer. She's just begging for him to win Sunny over now that she's not around to stop him from talking. Doubly so since Minrah's also quite friendly, and knows all of the details, including the whole "gods will destroy the world if the Xykon takes the gate" bit that we're not sure has filtered out to the rest of the party.

[Peelee]

:elan: So, uh, Sunny, why did you attack me and my friends?

Sunny: Because mom says you're going to blow up the world! I can't trust you!

:elan: (*makes several expressions of confusion and surprise*) ...Even I'm not dumb enough to do that twice.

I don't know how to break this to you but Elan voted to do it to twice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html).

[Rogan]

Eye position doesn't work, though. Unless Elan actually got zapped by Disintegrate earlier, or Charm Person made the hole in the wall.

Good point. I just noticed the charm effect is on different eyes when used on Elan 1241 or Haley 1244 respectively.
So eye position seems to be unreliable for identifying the effect.

It still might be sleep. Mind effecting is unlikely, since the eyes are normal for V, while Elan and Belkar had orange eyes in 1241. V doesn't look like stone when we see her last. So it's either sleep or slow again.

[Peelee]

Good point. I just noticed the charm effect is on different eyes when used on Elan 1241 or Haley 1244 respectively.
So eye position seems to be unreliable for identifying the effect.

It still might be sleep. Mind effecting is unlikely, since the eyes are normal for V, while Elan and Belkar had orange eyes in 1241. V doesn't look like stone when we see her last. So it's either sleep or slow again.

I'm totally hoping it's sleep, I'll admit.

[danielxcutter]

I don't know how to break this to you but Elan voted to do it to twice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0896.html).

You know what I mean.

[Wraithfighter]

I mean, we need to also keep in mind that the Eyestalk Beams have a DC 18 saving throw. That's in the hard, but not unbeatable territory, especially for high-level characters.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the entire party failed their saving throws last time. Hell, Flesh to Stone's save is Constitution-based, and Durkon's a high-level Dwarven Cleric (who get high-progression on Fort saves) who's much more of a bashing-faces type cleric (thus would likely have a high Constitution on top of the Dwarven racial bonuses), it's honestly pretty surprising that he managed to fail that.

Sure, obviously, we're reading a story and not following a campaign, the rule on when a character makes or fails their saving throw is "When the plot says so", not pesky things like rules, but the point is just that it might only be setting up a gag in the next strip where Haley asks which beam V got hit by, V doesn't know but says he's fine, and Belkar comments "...wait, we can make saving throws?" or something >_>.

[Duncun]

Here is what I would do if I was Serini. First of all, the hole in the wall would not have an outlet. Instead, once I got to the far end I would teleport back out to the room with Sunny and close up the hole. That way I have split the party and are now dealing with the weaker of the remaining combatants.

[Fyraltari]

Sunny is lovely and must be protected at all costs.

Also "Pew! Pew! Pew!"

[danielxcutter]

I mean, we need to also keep in mind that the Eyestalk Beams have a DC 18 saving throw. That's in the hard, but not unbeatable territory, especially for high-level characters.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the entire party failed their saving throws last time. Hell, Flesh to Stone's save is Constitution-based, and Durkon's a high-level Dwarven Cleric (who get high-progression on Fort saves) who's much more of a bashing-faces type cleric (thus would likely have a high Constitution on top of the Dwarven racial bonuses), it's honestly pretty surprising that he managed to fail that.

Sure, obviously, we're reading a story and not following a campaign, the rule on when a character makes or fails their saving throw is "When the plot says so", not pesky things like rules, but the point is just that it might only be setting up a gag in the next strip where Haley asks which beam V got hit by, V doesn't know but says he's fine, and Belkar comments "...wait, we can make saving throws?" or something >_>.

:smallconfused: Have we been reading the same comic? The only time the protagonists make a save is when it’s an actual save-or-lose.

[BlueHydra]

Give Sunny her own t shirt, please.

[Peelee]

You know what I mean.

And I always know what Serini means - she doesn't trust them not to, whether intentionally or accidentally. The people she doesn't trust saying "but trust us anyway!" doesnt make for a strong argument.

[KorvinStarmast]

And if Haley was thinking that far ahead and realized V would be immune to her intended effect, then she's truly got that admirable rogue's cunning! Haley being smart (if imperfect) is a long established character trait.

Really, what are the odds of someone in the Order - probably Roy - getting frustrated that even after they've stopped being the inept random noobs that blunder into something, break a lot of stuff, and stop it from getting too much worse, they're still forced into that role? High.

The other way is that the group being left behind is a petrified Durkon, a KO'd-by-poison Roy, a Cohort-power Minrah... and Elan. Yes, Elan's the most powerful current member of the group left behind. Low level moans of "we're doomed" are seen coming form Roy's mouth.

Basically, just about everyone that was still capable of really fighting is chasing after Serini. It really depends on where she's running to, because Vaarsuvius alone is probably a lot more power than she's capable of beating. So far as we know, but I suspect she has a wand or two in her pockets.

She's just begging for him to win Sunny over now that she's not around to stop him from talking. Doubly so since Minrah's also quite friendly, and knows all of the details, including the whole "gods will destroy the world if the Xykon takes the gate" bit that we're not sure has filtered out to the rest of the party. Elan getting some spotlight time will work nicely while the able, competent fighters are off trying to capture Serini.

So eye position seems to be unreliable for identifying the effect. So much for my "sleep/elf" thought.

Here is what I would do if I was Serini. First of all, the hole in the wall would not have an outlet. Instead, once I got to the far end I would teleport back out to the room with Sunny and close up the hole. Not sure how she "closes up the hole" since Sunny used disintegrate on it, but I'm willing to be amazed by what Serini comes up with. (Wand of stone shape?)

[danielxcutter]

And I always know what Serini means - she doesn't trust them not to, whether intentionally or accidentally. The people she doesn't trust saying "but trust us anyway!" doesnt make for a strong argument.

No, I meant “you get what feel I was going for” irrelevant to the actual “is Serini right with the wrong info” argument; what Elan might say in that situation.

Edit:


Low level moans of "we're doomed" are seen coming form Roy's mouth.

…So like, CR 6 at the most right?

[gatemansgc]

so we finally find out what number 8 does! disintegrate!

guess those walls are pretty thin! https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm okay as much as a 10 foot cube and that hole sure ain't 10 feet tall. wonder how thick that back wall was.

[Wraithfighter]

:smallconfused: Have we been reading the same comic? The only time the protagonists make a save is when it’s an actual save-or-lose.

Hey, I think the last time we saw Haley fail a Reflex save was back in strip 168 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)! And almost half the party beat the Vampiric Gaze save (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html)!

But hey, that's why I think it'd be a funny joke, to lampshade how rarely characters manage to make their saving throw :D.

[Peelee]

No, I meant “you get what feel I was going for” irrelevant to the actual “is Serini right with the wrong info” argument; what Elan might say in that situation.

Yes, I got that that's what you think Elan might say in that scenario, and the response from, Sunny would probably be "you already did, you bozo". And replacing "twice" with "thrice" doesn't really have as much punch, especially when there's only five.

[Kamunami]

It's really hard to see that panel as anything but Haley deliberately shielding herself with V, so I hope the idea that was the Sleep beam is correct. It'd be pretty nuts if she could remember and deduce that particular eye's effect AND make such a judgment call in an instant like that though.

[Psyren]

so we finally find out what number 8 does! disintegrate!

Technically we already knew that - MM1 pg. 27 :smalltongue:



guess those walls are pretty thin! https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm okay as much as a 10 foot cube and that hole sure ain't 10 feet tall. wonder how thick that back wall was.

Probably as thick as the front wall, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1237.html) i.e. not very.

[Hurkyl]

Yikes. It strikes me that Haley's spoken rationale for trying to capture Serini -- so they can get plot information out of her -- will probably go a long way to reinforcing Serini's antagonism towards the party.

[danielxcutter]

Why would it?

[Hurkyl]

Why would it?
Because that's one of the specific things a gate guardian would be wary of? Not to mention plot details have been forced out of her once before and look what followed up from that.

[Wraithfighter]

Yikes. It strikes me that Haley's spoken rationale for trying to capture Serini -- so they can get plot information out of her -- will probably go a long way to reinforcing Serini's antagonism towards the party.

Ooof, yeah, that's worrying, that might make her start to cause problems for them! She might even attack them, poison and petrify critical party members, and try to wipe their memories to completely destroy their efforts to save the world! They better be careful!

Sorry, but while you're not exactly wrong, taking her from "hostile" to "even more hostile" doesn't seem like that much of a worry for them.

[Psyren]

Ooof, yeah, that's worrying, that might make her start to cause problems for them! She might even attack them, poison and petrify critical party members, and try to wipe their memories to completely destroy their efforts to save the world! They better be careful!

Sorry, but while you're not exactly wrong, taking her from "hostile" to "even more hostile" doesn't seem like that much of a worry for them.

Yeah that. She's already being pretty opposite of helpful.

[Doug Lampert]

Could be wrong but I do not believe that anti magic can reverse petrification effect, especialy if it comes from a supernatural ability rather than the flesh to stone spell, once the petrification is complete.
It might reverse Bloodfeast the Xerminator back to a dinosaur if the lizard was in the cone radius (but I doubt it, Belkar probably took em back with him.)


Since it suppresses but does not dispel magical things (even supernatural ones), it should actually suppress petrification, but only while the petrified being is in the field. Take it out of the field and the petrification effect reappears.


Flesh to Stone
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

Note the bold. Dispel and antimagic have no effect on petrification, because once the spell takes effect, there is no longer any magic present to counter or suppress.

[hamishspence]

The effects of Conjuration spells with Duration: Instantaneous, work in an antimagic field, because the conjured matter isn't magical.

But I don't know that the same is true of other spell schools with spells with Duration: Instantaneous.


Lightning Bolt is Duration: Instantaneous - but if you aim a lightning bolt into an antimagic field, it won't affect things within - it's Evocation, not Conjuration.

[danielxcutter]

Probably should, since going into an AMF doesn't erase the damage you took from a Fireball.

[Doug Lampert]

The effects of Conjuration spells with Duration: Instantaneous, work in an antimagic field, because the conjured matter isn't magical.

But I don't know that the same is true of other spell schools with spells with Duration: Instantaneous.


Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

The definition of instantaneous is that the magic is OVER once the spell takes effect. An already petrified character remains petrified in an antimagic field because there IS NO MAGIC TO SUPRESS.

[Ionathus]

Ooof, yeah, that's worrying, that might make her start to cause problems for them! She might even attack them, poison and petrify critical party members, and try to wipe their memories to completely destroy their efforts to save the world! They better be careful!

Sorry, but while you're not exactly wrong, taking her from "hostile" to "even more hostile" doesn't seem like that much of a worry for them.

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Yes, I got that that's what you think Elan might say in that scenario, and the response from, Sunny would probably be "you already did, you bozo". And replacing "twice" with "thrice" doesn't really have as much punch, especially when there's only five.Could make a nice comedy routine.

Relatedly, I imagine Elan would be flattered to be compared to the most famous clown ever.

[Psyren]

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

There was no snark in my post that I can see :smallconfused: I merely said Serini was being the opposite of helpful.

1) If she doesn't already think they'd want plot details* or direct assistance from her... I dunno what else she could be thinking they'd want.
2) I think we're already at the point where Sunny is the one with the best, possibly only, chance of talking her down.

*"Plot details" in this case being "learning more about the dungeon whose defenses are likely their last hope of beating TE and saving the Gate."

[elecampane]

I'm very glad Sunny finally missed, because uninterrupted success streak on all of their previous 8 attacks was becoming irksome to me

Also, I noticed that in the 7th panel Sunny seems to wave with an eyestalk toward their back. What does that mean? Minor details had been important in this comic before.



3. Non-lethal use of disintegrate (I appreciate innovative uses of spells).
Beholders canonically use their disintegrate ray to carve out their lairs from rock; they also often make corridors vertical to make their lairs difficult to traverse for any land-bound creature



5. The cliff hanger: now that Sunny has turned his anti-magic eye back on, what magical effect across the room, off screen, is going to be dispelled? Will Durkon turn back to flesh? (Not sure how that might work in 3.5e).
Since it suppresses but does not dispel magical things (even supernatural ones), it should actually suppress petrification, but only while the petrified being is in the field. Take it out of the field and the petrification effect reappears.
Antimagic field very specifically would not affect Durkon, as the ray petrification works (as per creature description) like a Flesh to Stone spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fleshToStone.htm), said spell is instantaneous, and Antimagic Field (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) only affects ongoing magical effects and items


Yeah, they are chasing her, but now it's 3 v 1 and they were losing 7 v 2. The odds haven't improved. In fact, they are worse.
I mean, Haley almost single-handedly won this with a little help from Elan, and an assist from V. Unless Serini manages to get reinforcements, I l'm liking this particular 3 vs 1 chances.



What eye did Vaarsuvius get hit with? It's not disintegration or petrification. Does anyone recognize what hit, or will we only find out in a few strips?
The ray that did hit V is not Charm monser/person (no swirly eyes), Flesh to stone (V is not grey afterwards), disintegrate (looks different). That leaves Sleep (doesn't work on elves), Fear (irrelevant, as it would make V fear Sunny, and they are moving from them anyway), Slow (unpleasant, but with overland flight V's speed would still be 20ft, V can also dispel it again), Telekinesis (unlikely, as it requires concentration, and Sunny is immediately distracted)
Or, you know, V could succeed in their saving throw at last.
All in all, V will likely be ok.


I mean, we need to also keep in mind that the Eyestalk Beams have a DC 18 saving throw. That's in the hard, but not unbeatable territory, especially for high-level characters.

Honestly, I'm a little surprised that the entire party failed their saving throws last time. Hell, Flesh to Stone's save is Constitution-based, and Durkon's a high-level Dwarven Cleric (who get high-progression on Fort saves) who's much more of a bashing-faces type cleric (thus would likely have a high Constitution on top of the Dwarven racial bonuses), it's honestly pretty surprising that he managed to fail that.

Sure, obviously, we're reading a story and not following a campaign, the rule on when a character makes or fails their saving throw is "When the plot says so", not pesky things like rules, but the point is just that it might only be setting up a gag in the next strip where Haley asks which beam V got hit by, V doesn't know but says he's fine, and Belkar comments "...wait, we can make saving throws?" or something >_>.
Preach.
Also, would like to point out, that will is Elan's strong saving throw; even with a wis of 8 (int is his dump stat, not wis) he would still has a will save of at least 8, giving him a 55% chance to beat a beholder's DC 18 charm ray. He failed it at least 3 times (2x charm person and telekinesis)


And almost half the party beat the Vampiric Gaze save (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1122.html)!
To be fair, vampire's gaze DC is 10 + half their HD + Cha mod; as average dwarf would have a negative charisma, lower-level minions would likely have DC below 15. At the party's level even weak saving throw should be at least 5, so it's entirely reasonable half of them made the save


It's really hard to see that panel as anything but Haley deliberately shielding herself with V, so I hope the idea that was the Sleep beam is correct. It'd be pretty nuts if she could remember and deduce that particular eye's effect AND make such a judgment call in an instant like that though.
I mean, she did shout "look out", so I rather read that as Haley trying to pull V from harm's way.

[Ionathus]

There was no snark in my post that I can see :smallconfused: I merely said Serini was being the opposite of helpful.

1) If she doesn't already think they'd want plot details* or direct assistance from her... I dunno what else she could be thinking they'd want.
2) I think we're already at the point where Sunny is the one with the best, possibly only, chance of talking her down.

*"Plot details" in this case being "learning more about the dungeon whose defenses are likely their last hope of beating TE and saving the Gate."

The snark comment was more directed at Wraithfighter -- my response evolved as I was writing and by the end it didn't actually have much to do with your comment. My bad.

To answer your point 1) above -- I suppose she could think they'd just want to get past her and guard/destroy the gate themselves, but given their repeated Sendings that doesn't seem a highly likely assumption.

[elros]

I am looking forward to the conversation involving Haley, Belkar, and Serini (V got zapped so I don’t expect V to say much). It might be a rare occasion where Belkar contributes to a non-violent ending!

[Wraithfighter]

Not sure where the snark is coming from -- it's just an observation. Further antagonizing Serini doesn't just make her hostile now: it also makes it harder to talk her down later.

Given that pretty much everyone on the forums (aside from the "die painfully" fragment) seems to be expecting and wanting some variation of "Serini eventually stops fighting – either via successful diplomacy or being physically subdued – and helps the Order," Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone.

It's a fair observation, but I just don't see the value in the Order worrying about it. If she escapes she'll be impossible to talk down. If they talk about any other reason to chase her down, it'll probably make it harder to talk her down. If they chase her at all, it'll be harder to talk her down. But she's already showing that she has absolutely zero interest in being talked down right now, and at least they're not saying "We need to chase her down so we can kill her!" or "we need to chase her down so that she can tell us where the gate is so we can destroy it!" or something like that.

My snark was meant more in a "Oh no! Anyway..." sorta mindset, because... yeah, you're not wrong. There's also no other really viable option, and the Order shouldn't be criticized for picking the least bad of the available options when there's a Beholder firing eyestalk beams at them.

[Peelee]

It's really hard to see that panel as anything but Haley deliberately shielding herself with V, so I hope the idea that was the Sleep beam is correct. It'd be pretty nuts if she could remember and deduce that particular eye's effect AND make such a judgment call in an instant like that though.

It's funny, I didn't have that impression at all until I read this thread.

[Fyraltari]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

[Duncun]

Also, I noticed that in the 7th panel Sunny seems to wave with an eyestalk toward their back. What does that mean? Minor details had been important in this comic before.

It looks to be eyestalk 8 that he used to disintegrate the wall. So maybe it is just an indication of him moving it out of the way to use the other stalks.

[Duncun]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

Seems that way.

[Psyren]

So Sunny can't open their big eye without firing the antimafic cone, but they can open their smaller eyes without casting anything?

The cone is continuous while the rays are use-activated (MM 27).

[Alexandrite]

Well, if Sunny's being left alone with Elan then he's pretty much an ally already.

I'm definitely in the minority here but I just don't find his personality that interesting. (Sunny, not Elan) If he does turn out to be the major ally I'll be a little disappointed on top of finding it a bit of a cop-out since OG beholder was a character in the loosest sense of the word.

[Peelee]

Well, if Sunny's being left alone with Elan then he's pretty much an ally already.

I'm definitely in the minority here but I just don't find his personality that interesting. (Sunny, not Elan) If he does turn out to be the major ally I'll be a little disappointed on top of finding it a bit of a cop-out since OG beholder was a character in the loosest sense of the word.

I would imagine any character who only appeared on a single page would be a character in the loosest sense of the word, for what it's worth.

[137beth]

Elan can work his method and convince Sunny to switch sides?

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Jay R]

Elan vs. Sunny, a battle of wits for the ages.

Ah, Sunny vs. Elan. Truly a duel of wits -- or lack thereof -- for the ages.

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

[Fyraltari]

Elan can work his method and convince Sunny to switch sides?

I don't think Sunny even has sides to switch. However maybe a little talk will make Elan and them see eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye to eye.

[Wraithfighter]

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.

To be fair to Elan, he's a lot smarter than he looks. His ploy to get Sunny to blink was quite clever, and he did a good job twisting Roy's drunken ramble at the end of the last book into an inspirational speech.

To also be fair to Elan but in the mean way, it's not very hard to be smarter than he looks.

[Edreyn]

Why Elan is grey on last panel? Is he... petrified? :smalleek:

[hamishspence]

Antimagic fields make everything look a little greyer. Notice that in the previous panel his boots were grey but his head normal (the cone hit his lower half) and now it's his face that's grey and his boots brown (the cone no longer intersects his boots).

The same effect is visible when the ancient black dragon's using the spell (since it's a spell there, rather than an eye cone, it's spherical rather than conical).

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html

[TooSoon]

The definition of instantaneous is that the magic is OVER once the spell takes effect. An already petrified character remains petrified in an antimagic field because there IS NO MAGIC TO SUPRESS.

Except that Elan has song of freedom and neutralize poison, which should have sorted out both Durkon and Roy's issues already. That he has not used these despite several free rounds of nothing happening is plot nerfing so Roy and Durkon can't reason with Serini until after hijinks ensue.

[enq]

Specifically, for the ages five to seven.
Brilliance :D

[KorvinStarmast]

Serini's antagonism being reinforced is a worrying development for basically everyone. Doesn't worry me.

Relatedly, I imagine Elan would be flattered to be compared to the most famous clown ever. Likely.

I am looking forward to the conversation involving Haley, Belkar, and Serini (V got zapped so I don’t expect V to say much). It might be a rare occasion where Belkar contributes to a non-violent ending! Even better if Belkar ends up shanking Serini, inducing X's in her eyes. A little while later her troll constitutional element slowly brings her back (regenerate) with a serious attitude about it. :smallbiggrin: (Which might just bring the oracle's prophecy to fruition; back stabbed by epic level Serini rogue might just do for Belkar).

Specifically, for the ages five to seven. /me Applauds. :smallsmile:

[hungrycrow]

Except that Elan has song of freedom and neutralize poison, which should have sorted out both Durkon and Roy's issues already. That he has not used these despite several free rounds of nothing happening is plot nerfing so Roy and Durkon can't reason with Serini until after hijinks ensue.

Song of Freedom takes an uninterrupted minute of singing to use, unless Rich decides to fudge the rules a bit. I don't know why Roy hasn't been revived yet though.

[DreamCreator]

When I looked at that panel where V got zapped, it kind of looks to me like the beam that was going to hit Haley, hit Vaarsuvius instead. It looks like V and Belkar both dodged the same beam, and in doing so V hopped in front of the beam meant for Haley/Haley pulled V up to carry them and inadvertently the beam that was aimed for Haley, hit Vaarsuvius instead.

Anyone else notice that?

This could also maybe indicate that, if Sunny is intending beams for certain people based on their class and abilities, he might've hit V with something that would be more impactful to a rogue than a wizard.

[Peelee]

Song of Freedom takes an uninterrupted minute of singing to use, unless Rich decides to fudge the rules a bit. I don't know why Roy hasn't been revived yet though.

Neutralize poison only neutralizes the poison. It doesn't undo any damages or effects already done by the poison.

[hungrycrow]

Neutralize poison only neutralizes the poison. It doesn't undo any damages or effects already done by the poison.

It depends on what the effect was. Elan was able to revive V, and presumably V was hit by the same poison.

[Peelee]

It depends on what the effect was. Elan was able to revive V, and presumably V was hit by the same poison.

V was not knocked out, and Elan explicitly neutralized the poison but not the effect (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html).

[Wraithfighter]

It depends on what the effect was. Elan was able to revive V, and presumably V was hit by the same poison.

I think you're right. Serini probably hit Roy with the same poison that she used against O-chul and Lien, given that he's the same sort of target, and based on her comments after the pair woke up, it might not be a poison that does ability damage, instead just knocking them out and keeping them knocked out for a while. Obviously it'd be something stronger than the poisons listed on this chart (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Poisons#Table:_Poisons), at least in terms of Save DC, but something like Drow Poison listed there would be sensible for Serini to have been using.

I mean, Roy might need a smack in the face to wake him up after the poison keeping him asleep is removed, but that'd be it if its the same stuff that hit V.

EDIT:
V was not knocked out, and Elan explicitly neutralized the poison but not the effect (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0712.html).

I think you're looking at the wrong battle. First panel in 1244 shows Elan Neutralizing Poison on V, who is asleep from one of Serini's induced poisons. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1244.html)

[Peelee]

I think you're looking at the wrong battle. First panel in 1244 shows Elan Neutralizing Poison on V, who is asleep from one of Serini's induced poisons. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1244.html)

Ah, forgot about that (and feel a bit silly now). Probably still had to wake V up after neutralizing it, though, since they do call out how it stops the poison but that's it.

[Psyren]

Neutralize poison only neutralizes the poison. It doesn't undo any damages or effects already done by the poison.

You're correct about ability damage, but not temporary effects (like sleep from sleep poison). NS does end those. Another example would be eyeblast poison which causes blindness for as long as the poison is in their system.

[Peelee]

You're correct about ability damage, but not temporary effects (like sleep from sleep poison). NS does end those. Another example would be eyeblast poison which causes blindness for as long as the poison is in their system.

Oh, cool! I never really encountered it in gameplay so I'm not as sharp on that as some other things. Thanks!

[pendell]

Calling it : Elan will seduce Sunny using his bardly wiles.

He's done it before (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html).
It's his solemn duty to seduce female bad guys.

I don't know what Sunny identifies as - male, female, or other. But where is it written that a bard's abilities only work on the opposite sex? Or only on other humans? Elan's got 18 charisma, and there's always the chance of a natural 20 on any die roll. :smallamused:

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Psyren]

Sunny is coded as a child (or at least immature) so I don't think we're going the seduction route. Friends, however...

[danielxcutter]

Well, Sunny did Charm Elan earlier... so maybe Elan just accepted the friend request. :smallbiggrin:

[Xel]

So Haley just says “nine ball, corner pocket” is code for Sunny (ball with nine eyes) to stop them, but I’m thinking it was intended as a specific method to use, namely for Sunny to block the hole. That was likely just obvious to everyone else, I suppose? I still feel a bit uncertain about the interpretation, for some reason.

[Ruck]

Nice to see what number eight was already.
(Disappointed it wasn't a single plum floating in perfume in a man's hat though).

I knew I wasn't the only one.

[Hurkyl]

So Haley just says “nine ball, corner pocket” is code for Sunny (ball with nine eyes) to stop them, but I’m thinking it was intended as a specific method to use, namely for Sunny to block the hole. That was likely just obvious to everyone else, I suppose? I still feel a bit uncertain about the interpretation, for some reason.
That's what I assumed it to mean: sink the ball in the pocket. It's an even better fit than that since 9 ball is also yellow (albeit striped, not solid).

[Breccia]

I might be reeeeeeeeeeeeally late to this party, but, I'm starting to think Sunny and MitD are related.

[DaOldeWolf]

I might be reeeeeeeeeeeeally late to this party, but, I'm starting to think Sunny and MitD are related.

I dont know. The eyes dont exactly fit and as far as I know and the monstrous strenght doesnt seem to fit either.

[Dion]

That's what I assumed it to mean: sink the ball in the pocket. It's an even better fit than that since 9 ball is also yellow (albeit striped, not solid).

Another possible interpretation is they count the anti-magic eye as the ninth eye, and Sunny was shining the 9th eyeball in the hole (until Elan distracted her).

[Squire Doodad]

Another possible interpretation is they count the anti-magic eye as the ninth eye, and Sunny was shining the 9th eyeball in the hole (until Elan distracted her).

I think that Sunny herself is the 9th ball, the "give supporting fire and block the hole" interpretation seems most probable.

Wait, is Sunny a boy or a girl? Have we heard them have pronouns used in reference to them?


I'm guessing Elan is going to convince Sunny to let them through because they need to get V to come back and help Durkon, as opposed to because they want to catch Serini.

[Hurkyl]

I think beholders reproduce through paranoid delusion made real, so I'm not sure they would even have genders.

[danielxcutter]

In 3.5e the method of reproduction is uh... gross, but either way it's an asexual method.

Frankly, considering that Sunny is literally a floating ball with magic laser eyes gender is probably the least strange thing about them.

[Emanick]

That's what I assumed it to mean: sink the ball in the pocket. It's an even better fit than that since 9 ball is also yellow (albeit striped, not solid).

Can you or somebody else explain to me what Serini's phrase means in the context of a game? Obviously, the comic makes clear what it meant tactically, but I don't know anything about billiards so I don't understand why it works as a metaphor.

Of course, maybe you just explained it in the post I'm quoting, but since I still don't understand I guess I'm going to need a more detailed explanation.

[Hurkyl]

Can you or somebody else explain to me what Serini's phrase means in the context of a game? Obviously, the comic makes clear what it meant tactically, but I don't know anything about billiards so I don't understand why it works as a metaphor.

Of course, maybe you just explained it in the post I'm quoting, but since I still don't understand I guess I'm going to need a more detailed explanation.

In the game of pool (or billiards), to oversimplfy a lot, your goal is to knock billiard balls into the pockets -- holes arranged around the edge of the pool table. (note that the meaning of the word "pool" as used here has nothing to do with water)

One rule people sometimes use is that you have to "call your shots" -- you have to state which of the balls you intend to sink and into which pocket.

A stereotypical format for doing so is "nine ball, corner pocket", with a gesture to indicate which corner of the table you mean. Pool balls are numbered 1 through 15, so this means you intend to sink ball #9 in the indicated pocket in the corner of the table. (there are also "side pockets")

In media, you often hear this with the nine ball or the eight ball specifically, since those balls are related to the victory conditions in some versions of the game. Also, "nine ball" flows off the tongue well.

[Fyraltari]

You'd think Serini, an Epic Rogue, would know that a code word whose meaning is obvious is a useless code.

[danielxcutter]

I mean Sunny seems to be even more of a "kid" than Elan, and that's saying a lot.

[Werbaer]

You'd think Serini, an Epic Rogue, would know that a code word whose meaning is obvious is a useless code.
Unless the codeword is much shorter than the commands it replaces.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, Sunny did Charm Elan earlier... so maybe Elan just accepted the friend request. :smallbiggrin: *Chuckle*

That's what I assumed it to mean: sink the ball in the pocket. It's an even better fit than that since 9 ball is also yellow (albeit striped, not solid). Nice call.

I think beholders reproduce through paranoid delusion made real, so I'm not sure they would even have genders. There is no need for Sunny to have a gender, being a beholder.
In 3.5e the method of reproduction is uh... gross, but either way it's an asexual method. Thank you.

Unless the codeword is much shorter than the commands it replaces. We had a variety of brevity codes in the military that were used for just that purpose.
As two examples: the radio communication terms "Wilco" and "Roger" are each shorthand for a longer phrase. (Understand and will comply and I heard and understood respectively).

[SlashDash]

I dont know. The eyes dont exactly fit and as far as I know and the monstrous strenght doesnt seem to fit either.
There's also the obvious issue of that I highly doubt the author planned for someone as notable as the monster in the dark to be something that's not in the open license.

I mean sure, he uses Sunny now, but I don't know how secure he would have been way back when the monster in the dark was set.



Wait, is Sunny a boy or a girl? Have we heard them have pronouns used in reference to them?
Considering they aren't exactly wearing any clothes, either we would have known by now one way or another - or it's like Pokemon where apparently there are issues with them having a gender identity and gender attraction even though there's not way of actually telling what the other pokemon is.


You'd think Serini, an Epic Rogue, would know that a code word whose meaning is obvious is a useless code.
Code words have many uses in battle actually. Not only are they shortening out, but even if it's easy to figure out, it could still take you a second or two to realize and your enemy will always have to consider what exactly do you mean.

A good example of that in the OOTS is in the desert, where V gave the instruction that Xykon is feeling chilly. Notice that it wasn't that obvious at first what it means to everyone (specifically Belkar).

I also loved this panel they had in Marvel back in Civil War 2. Someone was about to blast one of the heroes on their side, so Ms Marvel shouts : "Peter look out!"
Then Spiderman (Peter Parker), Colossus (Piotr Rasputin) and Star-Lord (Peter Quill) turn around and get distracted and all of them get blasted.

Then Ironman goes : "That's why we use code words in battle"

[a_flemish_guy]

I thought beholders had 2 methods of reproduction

1) reproduce via eggs laid from their mouth incubated under their tongue, this results in beholders identical to the "parent" beholder
2) they dream of another beholder who then apears in reality, this beholder is different from the original beholder

[hamishspence]

method 1. is 3e/3.5e, and possibly older editions like 2e as well. Beholders produced this way differ a little - they're not identical

method 2. is 5e, and possibly 4e. Method 1 does not apply in 5e, method 2 does not apply in 3e.

[Tvtyrant]

I thought beholders had 2 methods of reproduction

1) reproduce via eggs laid from their mouth incubated under their tongue, this results in beholders identical to the "parent" beholder
2) they dream of another beholder who then apears in reality, this beholder is different from the original beholder

In Lords of Madness they gave birth to a bunch at a time, then murdered the ones that looked insufficiently similar to them and left the rest.

[Peelee]

There's also the obvious issue of that I highly doubt the author planned for someone as notable as the monster in the dark to be something that's not in the open license.

I mean sure, he uses Sunny now, but I don't know how secure he would have been way back when the monster in the dark was set.

Considering that he had an eye tyrant back in the first year of the strip, I would wager that he was banking on parody granting fair use, but that's about as close to the legal side as I'm willing to go.

[Peelee]

Code words have many uses in battle actually. Not only are they shortening out, but even if it's easy to figure out, it could still take you a second or two to realize and your enemy will always have to consider what exactly do you mean.

A good example of that in the OOTS is in the desert, where V gave the instruction that Xykon is feeling chilly. Notice that it wasn't that obvious at first what it means to everyone (specifically Belkar).

I also loved this panel they had in Marvel back in Civil War 2. Someone was about to blast one of the heroes on their side, so Ms Marvel shouts : "Peter look out!"
Then Spiderman (Peter Parker), Colossus (Piotr Rasputin) and Star-Lord (Peter Quill) turn around and get distracted and all of them get blasted.

Then Ironman goes : "That's why we use code words in battle"

Seriously? That's not even code words, that's their superhero names. Sloppy going not using those names when (I imagine) they're in costume. Loose lips sink ships, stuff like that can get Aunt May killed.

[danielxcutter]

I mean Sunny is basically a floating ball with magic laser eyes, gender is hardly the most important thing I’d say!


I also loved this panel they had in Marvel back in Civil War 2. Someone was about to blast one of the heroes on their side, so Ms Marvel shouts : "Peter look out!"
Then Spiderman (Peter Parker), Colossus (Piotr Rasputin) and Star-Lord (Peter Quill) turn around and get distracted and all of them get blasted.

Then Ironman goes : "That's why we use code words in battle"

God they so missed an opportunity to make a joke like this in Avengers: Endgame.

[Dion]

Can you or somebody else explain to me what Serini's phrase means in the context of a game?

“Nine ball” is a popular pool variation where you sink balls numbered one through nine, in order, into the pockets in the table.

Simking the nine ball in a pocket is how you win the game.

Of course, Serini isn’t exactly winning, so the analogy breaks down.

My wild prediction: Sunny has a cheat sheet on her person, with all the battle moves on it, numbered one through nine. She pulls it out of her pocket and consults it when she’s not sure what Serini is talking about.

[Fyraltari]

A good example of that in the OOTS is in the desert, where V gave the instruction that Xykon is feeling chilly. Notice that it wasn't that obvious at first what it means to everyone (specifically Belkar).

I don't think that one was agreed upon, rather that V came up with it on the spot, so I give it more leniency.

[Larsaan]

You'd think Serini, an Epic Rogue, would know that a code word whose meaning is obvious is a useless code.

I'm actually starting to wonder, is Serini epic level? We know Dorukan and probably Girard were, sure, but they might have gotten there after the Scribblers broke up. And I know a D&D Rogue (especially a 3.5 Rogue) isn't as impressive as something like a World of Warcraft Rogue, but Serini hasn't really shown off any Epic-tier abilities. Hell, she even relies on an invisibility wand over her own stealth skills.

[kiapet]

"She probably knows plot stuff we need to know." Aww, looks like Elan's been rubbing off on Haley :smallsmile:

[Seward]

3. Non-lethal use of disintegrate (I appreciate innovative uses of spells).

My sorceress took Disintegrate ONLY for its nonlethal uses. Actually so did my pew-pew Pathfinder Evoker.

Both really liked how it can make corridors, eliminate force barriers and otherwise make it easier to let you or the party do its thing, but it takes a sorcerer spell slots to really go nuts with it and bring it to full potential.

In that mode, it just works. No pesky attack rolls or saving throws to waste your action.

Although a rank or two in Architecture & Engineering or its equivalent is a good idea if you intend to go wild with it underground. Instead of making corridors and eliminating barriers you can instead bring the roof down on yourself.

[hungrycrow]

I'm actually starting to wonder, is Serini epic level? We know Dorukan and probably Girard were, sure, but they might have gotten there after the Scribblers broke up. And I know a D&D Rogue (especially a 3.5 Rogue) isn't as impressive as something like a World of Warcraft Rogue, but Serini hasn't really shown off any Epic-tier abilities. Hell, she even relies on an invisibility wand over her own stealth skills.

She kept adventuring while everyone else guarded their fortresses, so she should have gotten to a higher level than they did. Without epic spells it's kind of hard to tell; her ability with a crossbow doesn't seem epic but her poisons seem pretty effective.

[Fyraltari]

"She probably knows plot stuff we need to know." Aww, looks like Elan's been rubbing off on Haley :smallsmile:

Reminder that Haley once travelled to the cast page to steal a diamond from herself.

[KorvinStarmast]

pulls it out of her pocket and consults it when she’s not sure what Serini is talking about.
Sunny doesn't have hands, and I don't see pockets in evidence anywhere (although with a stick figure baseline, perhaps pockets being a detail that isn't usually used informs this observation).
Another thought: beholder with pockets. What, Sunny's a marsupial?
No sale.
(Your point on nine-ball held together pretty well. Been ages since I played it, though).

[Blue Dragon]

Battle of wits! Battle of wits! Battle of wits!

[The MunchKING]

Battle of wits! Battle of wits! Battle of wits!

You think she's got more than 200 cards in her library? :smalleek:

[ManuelSacha]

Well, that's a first... :smallconfused:

[Spriteless]

The way the eye moves and the arrows don't is unreal. This mysterious eye monster must be some kind of elemental!

[Hurkyl]

The way the eye moves and the arrows don't is unreal. This mysterious eye monster must be some kind of elemental!
To me the arrows look like they're in a consistent place relative to the large eye.

[Vikenlugaid]

Ooooooooooo!
Caster fight! Caster fight!

[elros]

I'm actually starting to wonder, is Serini epic level? We know Dorukan and probably Girard were, sure, but they might have gotten there after the Scribblers broke up. And I know a D&D Rogue (especially a 3.5 Rogue) isn't as impressive as something like a World of Warcraft Rogue, but Serini hasn't really shown off any Epic-tier abilities. Hell, she even relies on an invisibility wand over her own stealth skills.
Rogues in 3.5 had several “dead levels” (and level 20 was infamous for providing nothing), and even epic rogues' levels do not provide that much. The difference of a few levels with rogues is not as great as other classes, especially casters.
That said, Serini was able to create a trap that neutralized an entire high level party, and Haley only avoided being incapacitated because she used full dodge, so that is something.

[danielxcutter]

If she’d used lethal attacks, she’d probably have killed most of the Order already to be honest.

[Yendor]

You think she's got more than 200 cards in her library? :smalleek:

Nah, she's not telegraphing her plans that obviously.

[Larsaan]

That said, Serini was able to create a trap that neutralized an entire high level party, and Haley only avoided being incapacitated because she used full dodge, so that is something.

Nothing particularly Epic Roguish about planning an ambush. Roy's done it, and arguably to greater success than Serini.

Plus, the parts that actually made the ambush (almost) work was A) having something as powerful as a Beholder as an ally, and B) having a knockout venom that seems to bypass any kind of saves (though let's be real, the Order never gets to roll their saves anyway). These are things that could have been utilized by just about any character, be they level 5 or 25. Which isn't to say she's some kind of low-level poser or something, but so far she's leaned entirely on her allies and her gear.

Alternately, Xykon does love his level drain. Could be she lost a bunch to him, and never got them back.

[Potatopeelerkin]

It does look like Haley deliberately used V as a human (elven?) shield- which would make sense if the ray was Sleep, but how could Haley know which ray was going to be used?

I think sleep is likely anyway, since I can't think of what else it could be. I guess it could be petrification. Or Slow, but we've had that already.

[Peelee]

My big thing against Haley using V as a shield - aside from ghat not really being in character for Haley - is that there were three beams and three foes. Are we just assuming that Sunny has terrible aim and the third shot went wild?

[Hurkyl]

My first impression was that Haley just tried to yank V out of the path of the beam and wasn't able to.

[Potatopeelerkin]

My big thing against Haley using V as a shield - aside from ghat not really being in character for Haley - is that there were three beams and three foes. Are we just assuming that Sunny has terrible aim and the third shot went wild?

Well, it wouldn't be in-character if V was adversely affected, but if it was Sleep it wouldn't be a problem since V is an elf.

That being said the ray thing is a good point. I'm not sure exactly what's going on in those two panels. The movement line and the position of V in the previous panel makes it look like Haley picked V up off the floor, but the ray seems to suggest Sunny was aiming at someone flying.

[Jay R]

My wild prediction: Sunny has a cheat sheet on her person, with all the battle moves on it, numbered one through nine. She pulls it out of her pocket and consults it when she’s not sure what Serini is talking about.

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

[Peelee]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket

Free Waterfall, Sr. can answer that for you!

[Potatopeelerkin]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

Telekinesis?

[Edric O]

Wait... Did they... did they just... split the party??

[Chauncymancer]

Seriously? That's not even code words, that's their superhero names. Sloppy going not using those names when (I imagine) they're in costume. Loose lips sink ships, stuff like that can get Aunt May killed.

This particular comic takes place in a storyline where super-hero identities are made illegal: Peter Parker is part of the faction that publicly releases their legal names, in exchange for witness protection for their family members.

[bt109]

Agreed! I'd bet a truckload of quatloos that Sunny is about to have a chat with Elan, Durkon, Roy, and Minrah that completely changes their (Sunny's) mind on the situation, while the Non-Diplomacy Gang is off chasing Serini...

Since we're placing bets, my bet is that the real payoff of talking to Sunny isn't changing Sunny's mind. Rather, it's getting Sunny to talk about things while Sereni isn't around to tell him to hush.

Seriously, this is going to be like Kids Say the Darndest Things. One of Art's favorite tactics was to ask the kids what they were told not to mention on the air.

[Duiker]

All the discussion about nine-ball and no mention that Sunny has nine eyes?

[Ruck]

Free Waterfall, Sr. can answer that for you!

I didn't realize there were so many Waterfalls; I thought "Wait, isn't that Free Waterfall, Jr.? And isn't he dead?" (The second part, yes; the first part, no.)

[Peelee]

I didn't realize there were so many Waterfalls; I thought "Wait, isn't that Free Waterfall, Jr.? And isn't he dead?" (The second part, yes; the first part, no.)
The Waterfall family was an excellent low-key addition to the series.

[hroþila]

My first impression was that Haley just tried to yank V out of the path of the beam and wasn't able to.
Yeah, if you look at the movement thingy, V was where beam #1 hit, Haley yanked them out of the way but unfortunately right into beam #2.

[elros]

Since we're placing bets, my bet is that the real payoff of talking to Sunny isn't changing Sunny's mind. Rather, it's getting Sunny to talk about things while Sereni isn't around to tell him to hush.

Seriously, this is going to be like Kids Say the Darndest Things. One of Art's favorite tactics was to ask the kids what they were told not to mention on the air.
I think Sunny and Elan with chat, and they have such similar personalities that they will become friends. When the others return, Elan will tell them Sunny's backstory, and explain why everyone should work together.
Everyone will be one big happy party, just like Elan wants!

[BriarHobbit]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.

It certainly looked like Hailey used V as a body shield to soak up an eye beam. Either charm or sleep would not work on V. My guess is that Serini is now going to run her pursuers past a number of monstrous obstacles so that she only has to deal with one of them.

[bunsen_h]

Since we're placing bets, my bet is that the real payoff of talking to Sunny isn't changing Sunny's mind. Rather, it's getting Sunny to talk about things while Sereni isn't around to tell him to hush.

Seriously, this is going to be like Kids Say the Darndest Things. One of Art's favorite tactics was to ask the kids what they were told not to mention on the air.

I think that it's going to be a matter of explaining the situation (as far as they understand it) to Sunny, and Sunny then talking with Serini. Serini is inclined to dismiss anything that the Order says out of hand -- in one ear, out the other. She'll at least listen to Sunny.


My first impression was that Haley just tried to yank V out of the path of the beam and wasn't able to.

It appears to me that Haley dodged her "own" beam, the one angled highest, and tried unsuccessfully to get V out of the path of the second beam. Belkar jumped back from the third beam. I don't know if the Rules would allow Sunny to pepper all around the hole with a bunch of beams, rather than targeting individuals, but even if so, Sunny might think that that would risk people getting hit multiple times and being hurt too badly.

[Wimblesaurus]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

to address both points: eyelids

[Dion]

Leaving aside the question of whether an unclothed (non-marsupial) monster even has a pocket, what do you think she can pull something out of a pocket with?

She keeps the list in the same pocket where Haley keeps her arrows, and pulls it out with the same hands MitD uses to carry a stew pot.

On a related note, is Sunny making those crayon drawings above her bed with telekinesis?

And why does a floating eye monster even need a bed? Does she only float when she’s awake?

[Vikenlugaid]

She keeps the list in the same pocket where Haley keeps her arrows, and pulls it out with the same hands MitD uses to carry a stew pot.

On a related note, is Sunny making those crayon drawings above her bed with telekinesis?

And why does a floating eye monster even need a bed? Does she only float when she’s awake?

And more important... Are we gonna meet that "dragon" monster soon?

[Peelee]

And more important... Are we gonna meet that "dragon" monster soon?

Ooo, I forgot about that. Five gold on it being incorporated with a joke like "what, you thought dungeons didn't have dragons?"

[Fyraltari]

Ooo, I forgot about that. Five gold on it being incorporated with a joke like "what, you thought dungeons didn't have dragons?"

:vaarsuvius: I have reasons to suspect that there currently exists a large draconic vacancy within the global dungeon-related marketplace.

[Xel]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.
.

Oh dear. Why do I now have the sneaking suspicion that Banjulhu will be getting a new adherent?

[skim172]

This comic was so much fun. Time for Elan to make friends with Sunny. Show him the magic of story telling with puppets. With Durkon and Roy out of commission, it's up to the rest of the team to win the day.

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

[Wraithfighter]

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

Possibly.

It'd also probably increase Sunny's willingness to use Disintegration on living targets by, oh, 900%.

[Peelee]

Hypothetical question: If you were to cover Sunny's eyes-tentacles with sock puppets, would that effectively negate 9/10ths of her offensive capabilities?

4/5ths, really. The disintegrate eye could free itself pretty easily. And also all the others, come to think of it, though it'd take a minute or so.

[Hurkyl]

The telekinesis eye could free itself pretty quickly too.

[Emanick]

I didn't realize there were so many Waterfalls; I thought "Wait, isn't that Free Waterfall, Jr.? And isn't he dead?" (The second part, yes; the first part, no.)

Why are you guys talking about the fish that I had in fifth grade? And how do you know their names? :smallconfused:


4/5ths, really. The disintegrate eye could free itself pretty easily. And also all the others, come to think of it, though it'd take a minute or so.

Depending on how precise the ray can be, I'm not sure Sunny would feel comfortable aiming a disintegration beam at her own eyestalk, whether or not it was currently covered in a sock. I know the rules likely would technically make that "harmless," but I am much less sure that Sunny would see it that way.

[Peelee]

Why are you guys talking about the fish that I had in fifth grade? And how do you know their names? :smallconfused:

I weep for your poor fishies' fates (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UPQ_4Ab2e0).

[Metastachydium]

Depending on how precise the ray can be, I'm not sure Sunny would feel comfortable aiming a disintegration beam at her own eyestalk, whether or not it was currently covered in a sock. I know the rules likely would technically make that "harmless," but I am much less sure that Sunny would see it that way.

1. Sunny wouldn't see it in any way. Because of the socks.
2. Sunny wouldn't target an eyestalk. The eyestalk would target a sock that's on the eyestalk in question.

[bunsen_h]

Is Sunny's telekinesis powerful enough to be responsible for carrying O-Chul, Lien, and all their gear (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html)? The spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/telekinesis.htm) maxes out at 375 pounds. Though I suppose that Serini could have used something to decrease their weight. I notice that in that page, Serini is addressed as "Boss" rather than "Mom".

[danielxcutter]

In terms of weight, I'd give it a good chance.

[Fyraltari]

I notice that in that page, Serini is addressed as "Boss" rather than "Mom".

It's because they're at work. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1238.html)

[Peelee]

In terms of weight, I'd give it a good chance.

Seconded. Some time ago the exact stats stopped really mattering and it became more of "does this explain X well enough?" im fine with telekinesis hefting both paladins.

[Liquor Box]

Seconded. Some time ago the exact stats stopped really mattering and it became more of "does this explain X well enough?" im fine with telekinesis hefting both paladins.

The numbers do matter. Lots of the prediction and other discussion threads rely on knowing what the characters can and cannot do. Just like it would be a plot hole in a book based in our world if a single person carried off two unconscious people without an explanation (like a cart), it is a plothole in the comic if a character does something you wouldn't expect from their abilities.

In saying that, I think it's very likely that Lien and O-Chul way less than 375 with their gear. The average weight for a japanese man and woman is 137 and 116 pounds respectively, so about 250 total.

[Peelee]

The numbers do matter. Lots of the prediction and other discussion threads rely on knowing what the characters can and cannot do. Just like it would be a plot hole in a book based in our world if a single person carried off two unconscious people without an explanation (like a cart), it is a plothole in the comic if a character does something you wouldn't expect from their abilities.

Counterargument 1 (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/3/e30%3D/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/1.png?token-time=1635724800&token-hash=tO1BZ9-RtP04P4s5QoYeJ_ExyZL-LH920gpl3BNGBpA%3D).


If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don't care about that at all.

Also, even if we assumed neither of those were the case and the strip was absolutely beholden to stats written in a game book the author has explicitly said he is no longer following, then it still wouldn't be a plot hole. At worst, it would be an inconsistency. But it's not even an inconsistency here, because the author only has to be consistent within his own work. So Roy won't be throwing fireballs all of a sudden, but Eye Tyrants can have eight eye stalks and telekinesis can have a higher maximum weight limit, because that's not inconsistent with anything in the story.

So no, the numbers don't matter.

[Hurkyl]

Counterargument 1 (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/3/e30%3D/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/1.png?token-time=1635724800&token-hash=tO1BZ9-RtP04P4s5QoYeJ_ExyZL-LH920gpl3BNGBpA%3D).


Rebuttal: being more condescending doesn't make you more correct.

It's fine that you don't care so much and the author isn't a slave to the details. But those of us who like doing more analysis... it's much more rewarding to actually fill in the details than to just say "a wizard did it" and stop thinking every time something looks off.

[Peelee]

Rebuttal: being more condescending doesn't make you more correct.

It's fine that you don't care so much and the author isn't a slave to the details. But those of us who like doing more analysis... it's much more rewarding to actually fill in the details than to just say "a wizard did it" and stop thinking every time something looks off.

Not being condescending, I'm simply directly linking to and quoting the author's exact words on being beholden to the strict mechanics. If you enjoy detailed analysis, that's fantastic! That also does not mean that the author is required or even wants to keep to the exact mechanics of a twenty year old game system that he openly regrets basing his comic on. This isn't even "a wizard did it". This is "the creature explicitly is able to do this, just not quite as well as in the strip, so the author likely just upped the max limit to" however much is required to lift two paladins in heavy armor with all their gear".

You are free to guess how it was done by the rules. I have no problem with that. But if you expect those guesses to mandate how the comic is playing out, then I'm going to point out that that's a bad idea because the author has flat-out said that he is actively trying to confound that.

[Hurkyl]

Not being condescending, I'm simply directly linking to and quoting the author's exact words on being beholden to the strict mechanics.
You don't think the flowchart leading to 'what you care about doesn't matter' was a rather condescending way to tell someone 'what you care about doesn't matter'? (was it the Giant who made the flowchart?)

Shrug. Well, it comes off that way to me, even if it wasn't intended.

[Peelee]

You don't think the flowchart leading to 'what you care about doesn't matter' was a rather condescending way to tell someone 'what you care about doesn't matter'? (was it the Giant who made the flowchart?)

Shrug. Well, IMO, it comes off that way to me, even if it wasn't intended.

Yes, the Giant made the flowchart. It was in the latest patreon question and answer thread. I apologize if it came off as condescending - I was trying to point out multiple times that the author directly said that he does not care about rules accuracy in the comic.

[Liquor Box]

Counterargument 1 (https://c10.patreonusercontent.com/3/e30%3D/patreon-media/p/post/50478064/4087c61cda02493c82f09d996130e82e/1.png?token-time=1635724800&token-hash=tO1BZ9-RtP04P4s5QoYeJ_ExyZL-LH920gpl3BNGBpA%3D).



Also, even if we assumed neither of those were the case and the strip was absolutely beholden to stats written in a game book the author has explicitly said he is no longer following, then it still wouldn't be a plot hole. At worst, it would be an inconsistency. But it's not even an inconsistency here, because the author only has to be consistent within his own work. So Roy won't be throwing fireballs all of a sudden, but Eye Tyrants can have eight eye stalks and telekinesis can have a higher maximum weight limit, because that's not inconsistent with anything in the story.

So no, the numbers don't matter.

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all. If the DnD rules don't matter at all, then this is not a DnD based webcomic. I think the starting point is that the DnD rules apply, but with recognition that we are relying on the Giant's memory of them because he can't be bothered looking them all up. So it's based on DnD rules, but imperfectly.

Whether I am right or not, that is the premise on which the majority of the discussion on this forum is based.

This is a good example. I think the earlier poster was speculating as to whether it was Sunny who assisted Serini in carrying the paladins off. It is useful for the rules to be adhered to because then people are able to deduce things like whether it was Serini. And I think that would have been a good clue except for the fact the paladins are probably have been a good clue.

As for plot hole vs inconsistency, the wikipedia page on plot holes suggests they are the same thing. But maybe that is too simplistic - I'm happy to accept they're inconsistencies instead.

[Hurkyl]

Yes, the Giant made the flowchart. It was in the latest patreon question and answer thread. I apologize if it came off as condescending - I was trying to point out multiple times that the author directly said that he does not care about rules accuracy in the comic.
Oh. The flowchart was meant to be one that he uses when writing the comic?

In context, it looked like you were saying Liquor Box should follow the flowchart.

[Peelee]

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all.

OK, then I can pull out more things he's said.
I've seen comments (here and in other threads) that this "change" to the comic (which is not really a change) to "move away" from D&D rules will result in utter chaos, and that without the D&D rules to reign me in, I'm just as likely to solve a problem by having, say, Roy fireball the enemy, or Belkar summon a demon. This is ridiculous. Regardless of my adherence to the D&D rules, I am still obligated to adhere to the internal consistency of the story I have already written. Roy does not cast spells; this is already established within the work. It does not matter whether or not the reason he does not cast spells is because the D&D rules say his class shouldn't—it's still been clearly established that he does not. Therefore, he will not be casting any spells in the future unless I also establish, within the comic, that he has gained the ability to do so...which you could then extrapolate to mean that he has multi-classed to a spellcasting class. In other words, any move away from D&D rules will be to make a better story, and having the characters suddenly display heretofore unseen powers would make it a worse story—so I won't be doing it.

Again, internal consistency is the biggest thing that matters. He never says he doesn't mind inconsistencies or plot holes (also, I was mistaken when I said he wishes he had not hitched the comic to D&D, as is mentioned elsewhere in that post).

If the paladins and gear weighed over 350 (which is incredibly likely), then Sunny was still invisible, the paladins were still out cold, and Sunny could have just made two trips and been within RAW. This would have been clunkier than just having Sunny pick them all up in one panel. This moves away from D&D rules but makes for a better story. It's perfectly consistent with his thoughts on rules accuracy in the comic and perfectly consistent with the comic as-is.

Oh. The flowchart was meant to be one that he uses when writing the comic?

In context, it looked like you were saying Liquor Box should follow the flowchart.
Yes to the first sentence. I never even thought about using it in the context of the second sentence, but now I totally get how it could come off as condescending. Sorry, I thought it was more well-known that it was his description of his own process than it apparently is. My bad. I could have totally contextualized it better.

[Liquor Box]

OK, then I can pull out more things he's said.

Again, internal consistency is the biggest thing that matters. He never says he doesn't mind inconsistencies or plot holes (also, I was mistaken when I said he wishes he had not hitched the comic to D&D, as is mentioned elsewhere in that post).

If the paladins and gear weighed over 350 (which is incredibly likely), then Sunny was still invisible, the paladins were out cold, and Sunny could have just made two trips and been within RAW. this would have been clunker than just having Sunny pick them all up in one panel. This moves away from D&D rules but makes for a better story. It's perfectly consistent with his thoughts on rules accuracy in the comic and perfectly consistent with the comic as-is.


The Giant's quote there seems to me to be perfectly consistent with what I said. I agree with the giant that internal consistency is crucial (more so than adherence to the rules). But that doesn't detract from the point that the comic is based on the rules, and in most cases adhere to the rules, although not perfectly so. The Giant even says that when we see something unexpected (Roy casting a spell) we should interpret in terms of the rules (multiclassing).

Again, that is how the comic works most of the time (if not all), and much of the discussion is centered on it. Well I agree that the rules are not conclusive, I don't think you were right to say the rules simply don't matter.

Do you have any quotes from the Giant saying that the rules (or numbers) don't matter to the comic at all? If not, I think you are extrapolating to far from what he did say.

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds? Going off either average human weight from the rules (again the prove a useful framework) or from real life the paladins plus their gear probably come in at less. Since that explanation works, is consistent with what we saw, is consistent with the rules, why would that not be the case?

[Hurkyl]

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds?
A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

I thought 50 pounds for armor sounded right. Some searching suggests that's right, although it could be less... or a lot more.

The rest of their gear has weight too. I really don't have much clue how much weight we would expect the paladins to be carrying.

So my thought was that the load is likely to be 350 pounds at a minimum... but I expect it should be fair bit more than that. I feel like over is a tad more likely than under.

But the additional gear is probably a moot point, since Serini could carry their sacks, if she doesn't have a bag of holding to stuff it in.

[danielxcutter]

I presume they're wearing heavy armor? Full plate is 50 pounds each by RAW(which is not the case IRL, but whatever). Katanas have the same stats as bastard swords so that one's 6 pounds, and a spear weighs the same. Seems more than reasonable to not break the weight budget.

[Liquor Box]

A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

Yeah, that was actually me.


I thought 50 pounds for armor sounded right. Some searching suggests that's right, although it could be less... or a lot more.

The rest of their gear has weight too. I really don't have much clue how much weight we would expect the paladins to be carrying.

So my thought was that the load is likely to be 350 pounds at a minimum... but I expect it should be fair bit more than that. I feel like over is a tad more likely than under.

But the additional gear is probably a moot point, since Serini could carry their sacks, if she doesn't have a bag of holding to stuff it in.


I presume they're wearing heavy armor? Full plate is 50 pounds each by RAW(which is not the case IRL, but whatever). Katanas have the same stats as bastard swords so that one's 6 pounds, and a spear weighs the same. Seems more than reasonable to not break the weight budget.

I assumed they were not wearing full plate, because of the contrast between it and the armour Tarquin wears in strip 910. I assumed breastplate or similar at 30pds a pop. Add that to 250 pds, we get to 310 - which leaves 65 more for other equipment (their weapons are probably 4 or 5 pds each).

[danielxcutter]

I'm actually pretty sure Tarquin is using a mithral breastplate with armor spikes. The coloring is just due to the glamour spell. Not much concrete evidence, but I'm pretty sure his build is largely Swordsage with maybe some Fighter and Monk levels.

[Vikenlugaid]

The Giant's quote there seems to me to be perfectly consistent with what I said. I agree with the giant that internal consistency is crucial (more so than adherence to the rules). But that doesn't detract from the point that the comic is based on the rules, and in most cases adhere to the rules, although not perfectly so. The Giant even says that when we see something unexpected (Roy casting a spell) we should interpret in terms of the rules (multiclassing).

Again, that is how the comic works most of the time (if not all), and much of the discussion is centered on it. Well I agree that the rules are not conclusive, I don't think you were right to say the rules simply don't matter.

Do you have any quotes from the Giant saying that the rules (or numbers) don't matter to the comic at all? If not, I think you are extrapolating to far from what he did say.

Why do you think the paladins were incredibly likely to weigh more than 375 pounds? Going off either average human weight from the rules (again the prove a useful framework) or from real life the paladins plus their gear probably come in at less. Since that explanation works, is consistent with what we saw, is consistent with the rules, why would that not be the case?

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.

[Liquor Box]

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.

Based on what? Nothing peelee quoted suggested some distinction between rules generally, and numbers expressed in rules.

[elros]

But is simple, the comic is based on the rules, but the numbers of those rules doesn't matter at all.
I agree the “rules” of OOTS are more important for internal consistency than strict adherence to the D&D 3.5 ruleset, but that ruleset is still important to the audience. Part of the allure of this webcomic is that it is based on a ruleset that people can access, allowing them to understand every detail of the world. Access to those rules allows readers to speculate about plot points, character statistics, and even the origin of the MitD. It also is the basis for a lot of the humor of the webcomic, including the very first strip.
Fans are always going to argue about details- it happens in sports, movies, video games, music, literature, and anything else you can name.
Are some of us obsessive? Probably, but the D&D ruleset helps readers understand and predict things in this fantasy world, which is a nice distraction from a real world that is often confusing and unpredictable.

[Vikenlugaid]

Based on what? Nothing peelee quoted suggested some distinction between rules generally, and numbers expressed in rules.

Based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy at all.

[Emmit Svenson]

Code words have many uses in battle actually. Not only are they shortening out, but even if it's easy to figure out, it could still take you a second or two to realize and your enemy will always have to consider what exactly do you mean.

A good example of that in the OOTS is in the desert, where V gave the instruction that Xykon is feeling chilly. Notice that it wasn't that obvious at first what it means to everyone (specifically Belkar).

For those of you that appreciate a good rule reference:

Bluff (Cha)

....Delivering a Secret Message
You can use Bluff to get a message across to another character without others understanding it. The DC is 15 for simple messages, or 20 for complex messages, especially those that rely on getting across new information. Failure by 4 or less means you can’t get the message across. Failure by 5 or more means that some false information has been implied or inferred. Anyone listening to the exchange can make a Sense Motive check opposed by the Bluff check you made to transmit in order to intercept your message (see Sense Motive)....

[Liquor Box]

Based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy at all.

So based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy you conclude that the rules do matter? And then you think he doesn't care about numbers despite not mentioning numbers at all? And you think that logic is simple?

[hroþila]

I think some of you guys are kinda losing sight of what the actual inaccuracy would be in this case: a matter of a few pounds above the weight limit defined by the rules (if that – it's perfectly possible that their weight was under the limit). Eyeballing that doesn't make the comic internally inconsistent or render us unable to make predictions based on the Order's known abilities.

[Vikenlugaid]

So based on Rich saying he doesn't care about rules accuracy you conclude that the rules do matter? And then you think he doesn't care about numbers despite not mentioning numbers at all? And you think that logic is simple?

Sunny is a beholder/eyeballthing, they can use telekinesis with one of the eyes, that is something based on the rules, rules matters. But telekinesis is a spell with a limitation on the weight it can carry, that limitation is a number, and that number doesn't matter, Rich will make that limitation lower or higher depending on what he wants for his story.

Rules matters as a "base", but rules accuracy, A.K.A rules' numbers, doesn't matter at all.

[Liquor Box]

Sunny is a beholder/eyeballthing, they can use telekinesis with one of the eyes, that is something based on the rules, rules matters. But telekinesis is a spell with a limitation on the weight it can carry, that limitation is a number, and that number doesn't matter, Rich will make that limitation lower or higher depending on what he wants for his story.

Rules matters as a "base", but rules accuracy, A.K.A rules' numbers, doesn't matter at all.

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.

[Vikenlugaid]

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.
Not only the numerical, but the details. He cares about his story to be based on D&D rules, that is obvious of course, but he said he doesn't care about the accuracy of that rules in his story. What does that mean if not that he doesn't care about something like telekinesis having a limit of 375 pounds or 400, or 300?
When he use a spell, that spell can be found in the rules, and it generally works in the story as it works in the rules, but not caring about ALL the details, like numerical precise limits and that.

[Dion]

Yeah, I understand the difference between the qualitative and the quantitative aspect of the rules. I just don't know why you think, based on what the giant has said, he cares about the rules but not the numerical aspect when he hasn't said anything that indicates that.

The Giant used the word “accuracy”, and accuracy is often used to describe quantitative measurements (i.e. numbers) and exclude qualitative descriptions.

But not always!.

[Bacon Elemental]

I always assumed Serini was the one carrying the weapons, given that well before we knew of the existence of Eye Tyrants and trollflesh'd halfling guardians everyone seemed pretty certain that the art depicted a large creature and a much smaller creature flying invisibly. Which helps a lot with the margins for gear in this theoretical telekinetic weight budget.

Obviously rich just eyeballed (heheh) it as "A Beholder's Telekinesis should be able to carry two people's worth of stuff" at the very most, but given how some people were complaining earlier I'm surprised to find how close the limit actually is to the amount of stuff lifted.

[skim172]

Obviously rich just eyeballed (heheh) it as "A Beholder's Telekinesis should be able to carry two people's worth of stuff" at the very most, but given how some people were complaining earlier I'm surprised to find how close the limit actually is to the amount of stuff lifted.

Does a Beholder's telekinesis work on more than one object at once?

If so, why didn't Sunny telekines-ize Haley along with her bow?

[mjasghar]

There’s a simple explanation for all of this - Sunny took a monster feat similar to Empower Spell-like ability that increased its TK weight limit.
Wtr to why not TK Haley she was awake so probably able to get a save throw, whereas the paladins were unconscious so treated as unattended objects. Naturally, the first priority was to focus on the bow. In addition, yanking Haley up would have risked her falling and hurting herself if dispel eye was needed.
So now everyone can stop arguing. 😉

[danielxcutter]

I… forget the name but I think there actually is a prestige class that improves Telekinesis, and not just spells.

[Metastachydium]

I… forget the name but I think there actually is a prestige class that improves Telekinesis, and not just spells.

Master of the Unseen Hand.

[Dion]

Also, it’s entirely not clear to me how Sunny concentrates on telekinesis to hold Haley’s bow in the air, while simultaneously hitting Haley with an AMF.

[Ionathus]

Whether I am right or not, that is the premise on which the majority of the discussion on this forum is based.

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not :smalltongue:

[Metastachydium]

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not :smalltongue:

You are a bold man to brave the wrath of the Great Dragon!

[Fyraltari]

Usually yes, but not always: sometimes to switch it up, we base the majority of our discussion on whether Peelee is right or not :smalltongue:

Indeed, we do tend to argue about Star Wars a lot.

[Peelee]

A previous poster estimated they weighed 250 naked. I could see that being a fair amount higher or even a little bit lower.

The only estimate I saw was for an average Japanese, and the paladons are neither Japanese nor average. Also, on investigation, those numbers were for 17-year-olds.

A middle-aged man who has been in the military all his life is much more likely to be around or above 200. That's just an approximation, but I think it's significantly more likely than 140.

[KorvinStarmast]

In saying that, I think it's very likely that Lien and O-Chul way less than 375 with their gear. The average weight for a japanese man and woman is 137 and 116 pounds respectively, so about 250 total. What is this "Japan" you speak of? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html)

I read those as saying that the Giant doesn't mind the occasional plothole/inconsistency, not that departures are not those things at all.
As Peelee pointed out he's not keen on story inconsistencies.

If the DnD rules don't matter at all, then this is not a DnD based webcomic.
That's in the general neighborhood of a false dichotomy: there is a spectrum here, not an on/off switch. The rules generally apply. (See the gag about Mr Scruffy gutting the 'almost level 2 commoner' in the sands of the arena).

Not only the numerical, but the details. He cares about his story to be based on D&D rules, that is obvious of course, but he said he doesn't care about the accuracy of that rules in his story. What does that mean if not that he doesn't care about something like telekinesis having a limit of 375 pounds or 400, or 300? Not only that, but as the world builder/GM for this world, he can make tweaks and adjustments as needed.
And he does. (How vampires work being one of substantial importance for the last book)

Rich has been using some of the rules' more bizarre weirdness as fodder for gags since about strip 0001.

One of my favorite rules jokes was V copying a new spell into the wizard spell book that takes seven pages, due to being a seventh level spell, but it's a Power Word something ...
It's Just One Word Why Does It Need Seven Pages????.
Loved that one. :smallbiggrin:

[Hurkyl]

The only estimate I saw was for an average Japanese, and the paladons are neither Japanese nor average. Also, on investigation, those numbers were for 17-year-olds.

A middle-aged man who has been in the military all his life is much more likely to be around or above 200. That's just an approximation, but I think it's significantly more likely than 140.
The logic of making an estimate based on east Asian body types makes sense given the theming of their lands, and it does provide a more generous starting point for looking at the feasibility of keeping within the limit.

I do agree that a trained fighter is likely to be heavier, but I also expect the average for physically fit (not muscular, just fit) individuals to be less than the average given. (and this gels with some data points I've recently seen elsewhere)

As a data point, I did some searching, and 140 pounds was (just barely) middleweight class (for males) when Judo was introduced into the Olympics in 1964. (I was trying to find something on weight classes for martial artists in Japan, but this was the closest I was able to found after a few minutes)

So 140 is not completely unreasonable. I do find "a fair amount higher" to be more likely.

[Hurkyl]

One of my favorite rules jokes was V copying a new spell into the wizard spell book that takes seven pages, due to being a seventh level spell, but it's a Power Word something ...
It's Just One Word Why Does It Need Seven Pages????.
Loved that one. :smallbiggrin:
It's an amusing gag, but it's only a "rules weirdness" at a superficial level. (AFAIK) the spellbook isn't intended be thought of as a list of incantations, and magic isn't just incantations anyways. Instead, the spellbook is recording the wizards notes on the spell, and mnemonics to assist the wizard in preparing the delicate magics in their head every morning.

Maybe it's better to think of this as poking fun at players who forget that magic is actually supposed to be difficult in-universe. :smallbiggrin:

[Ionathus]

Instead, the spellbook is recording the wizards notes on the spell, and mnemonics to assist the wizard in preparing the delicate magics in their head every morning.

New headcanon: the Power Word is really, really, really hard to remember, so all seven pages are taken up by the wizard writing it over and over and over and over and over again to commit it to memory.

[Metastachydium]

New headcanon: the Power Word is really, really, really hard to remember, so all seven pages are taken up by the wizard writing it over and over and over and over and over again to commit it to memory.

If this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

[Ionathus]

If this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

That's five whole letters! It would take me years of study to learn that one. Truly, Vaarsuvius's mental capabilities are staggering.

[Psyren]

Also, it’s entirely not clear to me how Sunny concentrates on telekinesis to hold Haley’s bow in the air, while simultaneously hitting Haley with an AMF.

He's holding it above the cone's area, so the TK stays active even when the main eye is open. Eye rays and the cone can be used together, it's just that a target being inside the cone makes shooting rays at it pointless. Or are you asking about how he can concentrate on both? The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

[Fyraltari]

He's holding it above the cone's area, so the TK stays active even when the main eye is open. Eye rays and the cone can be used together, it's just that a target being inside the cone makes shooting rays at it pointless. Or are you asking about how he can concentrate on both? The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

Also, being born with nine eyes all facing different directions probaly helps being good at multitasking.

[Peelee]

If this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html) is anything to go by, that incredibly complicated word is blind (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html).

There's more precedent (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html).

[Metastachydium]

That's five whole letters! It would take me years of study to learn that one. Truly, Vaarsuvius's mental capabilities are staggering.

Right? It's not an easy one like the 3rd level Power Word Maladroit!

[Dion]

The big eye doesn't require concentration or even an action to open or shut.

Isn’t the AMF a spell like ability?

Even though mechanically it’s just opening the eye, doesn’t it still require an action and concentration to activate?

I mean, I am sure this is a plot hole.

[danielxcutter]

The AMF's a supernatural ability, it explicitly doesn't require concentration and even if opening it required an action the eyestalk beams are free action attacks anyways.

[Dion]

the eyestalk beams are free action attacks anyways.

Sure, but there’s a difference between casting telekinesis and maintaining telekinesis…

But if the AMF is supernatural, then I agree that the AMF doesn’t require concentration, AMF can be activated even while carrying paladins or holding a bow.

But Id note that if floaty-eye-thingy-telekinesis doesn’t require concentration to maintain, then Sunny can cast telekinesis as many times as she wants, and can easily carry a whole army of paladins around.