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Nevermore
2007-11-17, 05:30 AM
I made my players, 3 lvl 2 elven adventurers, 1 was a lvl 2 Battle Sorcerror, one a lvl 2 Ranger and the third a lvl 1 Barbarian lvl 1 Fighter all of whom I gifted elven chain do battle with 4 lvl 2 goblins in the wrecked sewers of an orc occupied city.

The goblins were armed with morningstars, MW chain shirts, Great Blowguns, home brew poison, dc 15 1d4 str damage, a variety of alchemical items, clw potions and two daggers.
They had 1 lvl of Ranger with maxed stealth and move silently and 1 lvl of Fighter.

They played hit and run in the sewers, using their darkvision to keep in the shadows, shooting whoever had the torch to the point they had to argue who would carry it...

Was this overly cruel of me? I want to know because besides cornering one whom barely managed to slink away with one hp left to chug a potion, they did not do very well

Pronounceable
2007-11-17, 05:36 AM
You did fine. Maglubiyet is proud of you.

That is exactly how goblins (and also kobolds) should behave anyway. Standing still and attacking until they're all slaughtered is not how a race survives.

squishycube
2007-11-17, 05:46 AM
Whether you did ok depends entirely on what kind of game you want to be running.
If you (and your players, obviously!) want a game where tactics and strategy are important, where opponents act realistically (ie. run away when they would be wavered, use their intelligence for so far as they have it, use their knowledge of the battle location, etc.), where the players sometimes face an encounter they can or just might not beat, then you did well. The opponents don't want to die, they want to win. So they use the terrain to their advantage and play dirty.

If you want a game where the players are always the stars, they never lose and everyone fights to the death, you did not do very well. The goblins used a strategy that meant that many characters could not easily retaliate, which can be frustrating for the kind of player who prefers this game type.

Nevermore
2007-11-17, 05:57 AM
The player of the Sorcerror and the Barb/Fighter liked it, sticking together, but the Ranger got koed no less than twice by the goblins. Once he was hewn down by all four hitting his slightly scathed hp w/ Preferred Enemy darts as he charged lone wolf style down the hallway at them and only the party charging to his rescue stopped a coup de grace. The other time he ambushed them unsuccsessfully, 10 on hide 12, 15, 17 and 11 on spots, while playing rear guard and nearly died as they gang pummelled him with morning stars to -5, leaving him with his head bashed in to stabilize at -8, 3 rounds later until the party got to him and the gobbos fled

Pironious
2007-11-17, 06:02 AM
If you want a game where the players are always the stars, they never lose and everyone fights to the death, you did not do very well. The goblins used a strategy that meant that many characters could not easily retaliate, which can be frustrating for the kind of player who prefers this game type.

Are there really people who... no, don't answer. I really don't want to know.

squishycube
2007-11-17, 06:25 AM
Rule 34 (http://xkcd.com/305/) of the internet: If you can think of it, there's porn of it. By implication that means that if you can think of it, it exists.

My point being that I don't know anyone that plays like that, but I do know that there are people who play like that. At any rate, I was just 'setting up the playing field' or something by giving two extremes.

Something else I forgot was: Did you and your group have fun? That is, in the end, the only thing worthwhile measuring if you want to know whether a session was a succes.

Xefas
2007-11-17, 06:36 AM
Are there really people who... no, don't answer. I really don't want to know.

I previously had a player who wanted me to DM like that, but neglected to actually say anything about it. Everyone else had fun, but every time an enemy used an effective tactic against him (like, say, avoid melee with his big greatsword wielding tank) he'd throw a fit about it. When I say 'fit', I don't mean like a passive aggressive comment or complaint; I mean "**** you, I'm not writing down that damage! This is bull****! What's the ****in' point of playing?!"

We don't play with him anymore.

But, anyway, as something slightly more on topic, I have to say bravo to Nevermore, because that's quite an awesome display of goblinitude. You didn't do anything wrong, and I salute you.

daggaz
2007-11-17, 09:11 AM
I would say that the DC of the poison sounds a bit high for their ECL. Usually at that level, poisons are closer to DC 12. It is especially harsh as they do not seem to have any way to cast lesser restore, either.

Otherwise seems fine to me.

Morty
2007-11-17, 09:59 AM
Unlesss your players are the type that can't accept being beaten, I'd say this encounter was exactly how goblins/kobolds/etc. are supposed to fight. Though 4 level 2 NPCs were maybe too much of a challenge for 3 level 2 PCs.

Renrik
2007-11-17, 12:58 PM
you did wll, but there is still more. Now, have the goblins sneak into their inn at night and cut a few throats. Or have them chuck some molotov cocktails into the PCs' favorite pub. Then, have the goblins kill their horses. Or snipe them when they walk down the street. Anything to make the PCs' life hell for the countless and horrible crimes they have doubtlessly commited against the goblin people.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 01:06 PM
Something else I forgot was: Did you and your group have fun? That is, in the end, the only thing worthwhile measuring if you want to know whether a session was a succes.That is the 64,000 GP question. Your encounters should cater to the tastes of your party.

Blasterfire
2007-11-17, 06:16 PM
I think the encounter might have been a little too difficult (difficult does not mean it wasn't fun). IIRC, a human with levels in player classes has a CR equal to the levels of the classes. this means that he is considered an "Appropriate challenge" for a group of 4 adventurers the same level as him. Goblins are weaker than humans, but there were still four of them using superior tactics in an area favoring their abilities vs. an undermanned, without healing party.

If the party had fun though, its all good. Personally, I would have enjoyed playing it very much :D.

Nevermore
2007-11-18, 07:28 PM
yes, the group had fun, though the Ranger's player complained a bit about the fact he kept getting torn apart... Any suggestions on how I should continue w/ my goblin group as recurring villians?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-18, 07:39 PM
Maybe get some stoopid big ogre as a tank, and a kobold sorcerer to back 'em goblins with some magic power? Sneakers are nice, but if the PC's find them, it'll hurt. LOTS. And worse still, they have no way of protecting themselves from magical scryin', so if the sorc decides to scry, you'd have to DM fiat something.

Mike_Lemmer
2007-11-18, 07:41 PM
Unless the players have a decent counter-strategy against them, send the goblins out adventuring. If the players have to go back down and go through the poison slugfest again and can't use a viable counter-strategy, it'll be frustrating. If they come up with the perfect plan and return only to find the goblins have left, it'll be frustrating. The best outcome would be the players come up with something that wipes the floor with the goblins, but they're smart enough to retreat in time, cursing the PCs. Make the goblins too badly wounded to continue fighting for today and you're golden.

Carrion_Humanoid
2007-11-18, 07:50 PM
you did wll, but there is still more. Now, have the goblins sneak into their inn at night and cut a few throats. Or have them chuck some molotov cocktails into the PCs' favorite pub. Then, have the goblins kill their horses. Or snipe them when they walk down the street. Anything to make the PCs' life hell for the countless and horrible crimes they have doubtlessly commited against the goblin people.


I believe that is a beutiful way of making them recurring villians.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-18, 07:56 PM
Use them as a random encounter, more or less. The PC's are walking through a city at night? They get a morning star chucked at them from the dark alleyway. If they run, they get hit from the next 2 they pass. If they pursue, they get led either into a guerilla battle where the goblins are running them in circles, trading off based on who the PC's pursue, and hitting them from the sides, from rooftops...you get the idea. You can even have one of them yell something about the friend who was killed. If you can, give them a motivation for why they are dogging the parties footsteps and giving them hell, and make it last for several missions. I don't know how you set up the sewer mission, but this shouldn't be "inept servants of the BBEG", this should be "angry evil group that actually has a legit reason for their grudge against you". If the goblins attacked first initially, then it was in revenge for some transgression against goblins that the party may or may not have committed. If they ran into each other in the sewers, then the goblin's home was invaded, and either way, the goblins lost a friend to your group and want them to pay. Have this hinted at in taunts, make it an over-arching sub-plot for your PC's to avoid these psychos. Ambushes when the party is weak, have the party roll spot checks at random intervals, and if they make an obscenely high roll, all they get is "you notice a short figure in a hooded cloak. he spot's your attention and vanishes into the crowd." Make the PC's fear these little raiders. Make them level with the party, make it so that when they finally do defeat the goblins, the players feel on top of the world. Make it a situation where it is clear the goblins have prepared, but your party notices something they didn't, or spots them right before the ambush is sprung, and they take out all 3 of these guys in a single battle. This shouldn't be attrition, this should be the players coming out victorious.

Also, don't make the players face these guys every session. Make it feel random. Make them jump every time you pick up the dice, but make the goblin encounters special. Make them happen when the players are weary, when they aren't expecting it, and make sure each time it feels like a mini-boss battle. Look at the "Messing with player's heads thread", some stuff in there is exactly what you need. This can be done great or horrid, and I really hope you go great.

Kompera
2007-11-19, 12:44 AM
Any suggestions on how I should continue w/ my goblin group as recurring villians?Depends on the area. If the sewers are extensive, those four could be the outliers/scouts for the clan who lair deep within the maze of twisty passages, all alike.

TheOOB
2007-11-19, 02:04 AM
Just remember one thing, base XP per an encounter based on encounter difficulty, not monster power. Monsters using ambush and hit and run tactics are way more difficult then the standard walk up and attack you type (usually), and thus your players should gain a greater reward for beating them.

Nevermore
2007-11-19, 08:34 AM
Goblin Raider's Motivations:
-They are defending their homes against pointy eared invaders who lost their right to call this land their own when they lost it over 3 millenia ago.
-The party accidentally drowned the goblin village and flooded the town by sealing all the exits to the sewer and then a torrential storm arrived, only the 4 Ranger1/Fighter1 Goblins escaping in time.
-Its a holy war, the worshippers of Corelion Larethian against those of Gruumsh and the Goblins are caught in the middle of it.
-The guy they initially almost killed? The goblin party's leader. Before epicly rapelling the shattered city wall, exposed by a flash of lightning the injured gobbo pointed at one of the party members and dragged a wicked dagger acrossd his own throat in a slitting motion but without breaking his skin before vanishing into the darkness.