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brian c
2007-11-17, 05:45 AM
Okay, so this all noticed when I was looking through Fiendish Codex I a while ago and found Claws of the Beast. It's a bonus to unarmed damage, which I thought would be great for a monk. Well, the build ended up not being much in terms of Monk levels, but it's still an unarmed/unarmored combatant (with bonus spellcasting as an 11th level cleric).

You need: a god with the War and Strength domains, and favored weapon unarmed strike, and whose alignment allows LN clerics (preferably, allows LN and NE, so god would be LE)

Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 10 / Pious Templar 4
BAB: +17/+12/+7/+2
Saves: +17/+11/+15 fort/ref/will
Spellcasting as lvl 11 cleric (plus as lvl4 Pious Templar)
Domains: War, Strength.

Feats:

1) Claws of the Beast (FC I)
human bonus) Combat Casting
flaw) take some non-combat flaw. inattentive or something
1-flaw) True Believer (CDiv)
bonus) Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) (War domain)
3) Ordered Chaos (FC I)
human paragon bonus) Demonic Skin (FC I)
monk bonus) Stunning Fist
monk bonus) Combat Reflexes
6) Poison Talons (FC I)
9) Primordial Scion (FC I)
12) Eyes of the Abyss (FC I)
15) Vestigial Wings (FC I)
18) Precognitive Visions (FC I)
PT bonus) Weapon Spec (unarmed)
PT bonus) GWF (unarmed) or your choice of Fighter bonus feat

The total effect of all of this is:

-Really good saves
-Mettle (from Pious Templar)
-7 Abyssal Heritor feats, which means
--Claws of the Beast: +4 damage with unarmed
--Demonic Skin: +4 natural armor
--Poison Talons: poison attack, DC 20+Con; 1d4 Str is primary and secondary
--Primordial Scion: chaotic aligned weapons, +2d6 vs lawful
--Eyes of the Abyss: Darkvision 30ft, +7 Spot/Search
--Vestigial Wings: slowfall (inf), +21 Jump
--Precog Visions: Four "floating" +1 insight bonuses to be applied to AC, attack, initiative, one save of choice (prob reflex)
+2 on attacks (weapon focus and GWF)
+2 damage (weapon spec)
Unarmed damage as a lvl12 monk (lvl17 with Monk's Belt)


Stats: on 32-point buy
16 Str
16 Wis
14 Con
14 Dex
8 Int
8 Cha

use the +2 from human paragon and all 5 boosts on Str. Periapt of wis +6, so Wisdom is 22, Str is 23. Would have some more stat-boosters with WBL but I'm too lazy to figure it.

Gear: above, plus Amulet of Mighty Fists +5, Monk's Belt. Other stuff would help, but again I'm lazy and tired. Maybe later.

Attack routine: +31/+26/+21/+16 for 2d8+17 damage, chaotic-aligned, with chance of poison. Stunning Fist DC = 26, poison DC = 22
AC: 10 +1 (monk) +3 (sacred fist) +2 (dex) +6 (wis) +4 (natural) = 26

Casting as an 11th level cleric, can use Righteous Might, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Enlarge Person.

~200k gold spent (not supposed to say what WBL is, but for 20th it's a lot more than that)

Jump check of at least +27 (with max ranks, could be as high as +50, but we dont have enough skillpoints for that)


For somewhat cheesy goodness, the following: At level 20 (or maybe sometime before) let your alignment change away from Lawful. Now that you aren't lawful, retrain Ordered Chaos into something a bit more useful, such as moving another Abyssal Heritor feat down there and retraining the higher level feat as maybe Improved Natural Attack. Also, I've taken one flaw; the build can be done without it (though a tad weaker) but it could also add another flaw for another feat, especially if you're allowed to retrain and add a flaw. On the note of cheese, this casts lvl11 cleric spells and I refrained from any Divine Metamagic.


So... somewhat viable pseudo-monk build? Or should I just go get some sleep? (I'll do that anyway now)

Zincorium
2007-11-17, 05:47 AM
Good job. I have to say, I do find it amusing that a lot of the really effective builds for any class contain the fewest levels of that class possible.

Armads
2007-11-17, 06:00 AM
Do you have a spare feat? If so, Superior Unarmed Strike would boost your unarmed strike damage to that of a 20th level monk.

brian c
2007-11-17, 11:32 AM
Do you have a spare feat? If so, Superior Unarmed Strike would boost your unarmed strike damage to that of a 20th level monk.

Unfortunately no; that's one of the possibilities for a feat to take if you use retraining though. Also, Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike may or may not stack, depending on your DM's interpretation. By RAW, they probably don't.


Speaking of monk unarmed damage, the only change that I'm thinking is to take a Monk PrC for the last 4 levels, instead of Pious Templar. Increasing unarmed damage and any other monk coolness might be better than the fighter bonus feats, but might not be; but they might free up the feat that's being used on True Believer also.

brian c
2007-11-17, 04:09 PM
Completing the build: magic items. I'm too lazy to figure out how differently slotted items should cost, so I'm aware that I have multiple items for the same slot. By RAW, this is a bit illegal but relaly all that needs to be done is cut costs a little bit (say +4 tomes instead of +5)

All items are in the SRD; I'm sure with MIC I could cheese it up a bit more

Amulet of Mighty Fists +5
Tome of Wisdom +5
Tome of Strength +5
Periapt of Wisdom +6
Belt of Strength +6
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Wings of Flying
Ring of Protection +5
Bracers of Armor +8
Ring of Invisibility
Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 competence bonuses)
Orange Ioun Stone (+1 caster level; this isn't really needed at all, it's just nice)
Cloak of Resistance +4
Monk's Belt

This totals to exactly the WBL for 20th level (worked out nicely).

Bonuses from magic items:

+11 Str
+11 Wis
+6 Dex
+13 AC (deflection and armor, not counting dex/wis)
+6 unarmed attack (mighty fists & ioun stone)
+5 unarmed damage (mighty fists)
+4 all saves
Effective monk level +5 for unarmed/AC

So my ability scores after magic and +5 levels (and +2 Human Paragon), using the starting array listed earlier:

34 Str, +12 modifier
27 Wis, +8 modifier
20 Dex, +5 modifier

Final AC: 10 +5 (dex) +8 (wis) +13 (items) +1 (monk) +3 (sacred fist) +4 (natural) +1 (insight) = 45. Flatfooted 40, Touch... pretty damn high, 27 I think?

Final Attack routine: +33/+28/+23/+18, flurry +31/+31/+26/+21/+16
damage: 2d8 +21, plus Stunning Fist DC 28, poison talons DC 22.

Saves: Fort +24, Ref +22, Will +28. Mettle and Evasion

Can fly (wings of flying), and go invisible at will (ring of invisibility)

Initiative +6

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-17, 04:12 PM
Can you get a few psionics in any way into this build? Zerth Cenobite could always be added, and it has semi useful abilities.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-17, 04:15 PM
If you're gonna go the Cleric route, probably Sacred Fist or whatever it is. Should boost Unarmed damage, but probably not Flurry, and some other stuff.

brian c
2007-11-17, 04:16 PM
If you're gonna go the Cleric route, probably Sacred Fist or whatever it is. Should boost Unarmed damage, but probably not Flurry, and some other stuff.

Read the first post please. The build is Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 10 / Pious Templar 4



Can you get a few psionics in any way into this build? Zerth Cenobite could always be added, and it has semi useful abilities.

I've never really been into Psionics. Feel free to make your own Psionic Monk of Doom though, let me know how it goes.

kemmotar
2007-11-17, 04:53 PM
actually, i've been using a monk character for a campaign and i really don't think you need all the PrC/cleric levels and the fiendish feats since there are much better choices.

I'm using a feral goliath monk. ATM he's level 11. monk7/tatooed monk1/swordsage2.

Superior unarmed strike+monk's belt for unarmed damage(plus fists count as large thanks to goliath's powerful build). Leap attack and mantis leap. Also impr. trip + knockdown (i'm using some feats from sword and fist which is 3.0, which may or may nor be allowed depending on the DM). Tattoed monk for ocean tatoo(no longer need to eat, drink or sleep). Swordsage gives an unnamed bonus to AC equal to wis so i get wis x2 to ac(dunno if they stack by raw, but it was allowed by my DM). Other feats i was thinking of taking are impr. natural attack, power attack, power lunge and shock trooper which might work for your build.

Claws of the beast seem nice, as well as vestigial wings, but i don't know whether you can fit wings of flying along with the wings since you already have a set...DM houserule i gues...

Poison talons might seem nice, but you need much higher con to get them to actually work in high levels...

I don't know exactly what you get with having 7 demonic heritor feats, but i would guess that the other feats are dependent on the total right?

Demonic skin seems nice, but if you remove paragon and add feral you get +6 natural armor and str, con and wis bonuses. Feral would also give you darkvision so you don't need eyes of the abyss...

Besides, with all the abyss feats you miss out on a lot i think...the reason i avoid them is because you focus too much on one thing and monks are supposed to be all rounders. Also with the pious templar and cleric levels you increase your spellcasting ability but very little i think...11 level clerics cast up to 6th level spells which only be useful for buffing youself since your DCs wouldn't be high enough to affect anyone at level 18 or 20...Thus instead you could get a few more levels of monk or tatooed monk. There are some very good tattoos if you take a few more levels...Also, 27 ac isn't much...at 11 level i had 51...which wasn't hittable even from the BBEG(hehe...i still remember my poor DM rolling against me asking how much my ac was and then contorting his face..hihihi)

Besides, i would say that your AR isn't that high either seeing how most of the monsters have ACs barely hittable...

If you really want to play this build without changing it too much, to drop some demonic heritor feats(with the exception of demonic claws maybe). Since monks don't hit all that much you need to make each hit count. Maybe 2 levels of swordsage for the AC bonus. Superior unarmed strike and impr natural attack.

Also using enlarge person can significantly increase your damage the hight the die you are using. Thus it would outweigh the -1 to AR and AC if you combine it with superior unarmed strike and impr natural weapon. I should think that superior unarmed strike and monk's belt do stack since it's not from the same source. Thus an item using the monk's belt price but in another slot would not further increase it, since they are different sources they might stack. For example, bull's strength and bracers of str +4 don't stack because its the same spell. But if you had a feat that enhances your str or a tatto (from tatooed monk) that enhances your str as a supernatural ability, you probably have a good chance of convincing your DM they do stack.

Precognitive vision is also quite good! I would also think(concerning items) getting a belt of battle, its quite hip:smallwink:

Finally, i believe that a monk is actually useful because of his ability to be an all around player thus limiting him to battle isn't quite useful. You can't be a meatshield because of your low AC. You won't be very damaging, because your attacks will probably hit half the time and your damage isn't as good. Maybe kensai would be a good choice to bump up your damage. Your mobility isn't as good either what with 2 levels of monk and no other speed increase...You can jump very well but that isn't much help is it since you have wings of flying and you don't have any feats requiring you to jump...

Also the reason i'm so opposed to half spellcaster builds is that you essentially waste actions when you should be fighting or pursuing. It also gives your opponent a chance to attack. Also since you only have 8 intelligence you can't use spells in combat since you won't have much by way of concentration. Tumble is also essential i would think and since you have dex 20 it should help. Also this character would only work in a very evil party and you probably wouldn't be accepted into any town with all the demonic looking things about you...Plus you can't disguise youself. Monks are already underrated and people are trying to make them specialize in one particular area whereas i think that they were created to be good alrlounders with a correct choice of feats. Sure they can't defeat a fighter like char at melee, they can't kill wizards etc, but they have a pretty good support role and in the end the situation might depend on you. For example the fighter is busy protecting the cleric and wizard by blocking the monster's way and the rogue needs someone to flank the spellcasting monster...move and flank. Or be a temporary meatshield (monks have the ability to have sky high ac quite easily as well as hit points). Thus specialising in damaging won't be as effective if you don't max it some way...

Temp
2007-11-17, 05:31 PM
Demonic skin seems nice, but if you remove paragon and add feral you get +6 natural armor and str, con and wis bonuses. Feral would also give you darkvision so you don't need eyes of the abyss...Feral is so blatantly broken that it's usually disallowed.


Also with the pious templar and cleric levels you increase your spellcasting ability but very little i think...11 level clerics cast up to 6th level spells which only be useful for buffing youself since your DCs wouldn't be high enough to affect anyone at level 18 or 20...In case you haven't noticed yet, in D&D Any Spellcasting>None at all. 11 levels of Cleric casting provides Righteous Might and Divine Power, which actually make the character a capable combatant as well as the ability to be an able "all-'rounder"


Precognitive vision is also quite good! I would also think(concerning items) getting a belt of battle, its quite hipAgain, blatantly broken aspects of the game are usually disallowed and thus impractical.


Finally, i believe that a monk is actually useful because of his ability to be an all around player thus limiting him to battle isn't quite useful.Spells contribute a hell of a lot more to versatility than 2 skill points: Cleric levels win.


Also the reason i'm so opposed to half spellcaster builds is that you essentially waste actions when you should be fighting or pursuing.Actions "wasted" making oneself capable of being useful are much more beneficial to a party than actions squandered trying to fight with no abilitiy to actually contribute to a combat.


Also since you only have 8 intelligence you can't use spells in combat since you won't have much by way of concentration....Because any spellcaster would be foolish to pump their Concentration skills above the others...


Monks are already underrated and people are trying to make them specialize in one particular area whereas i think that they were created to be good alrlounders with a correct choice of feats.Making a Monk useful in a single roll is a far more intelligent choice than leaving them useless in many.


For example the fighter is busy protecting the cleric and wizard by blocking the monster's way and the rogue needs someone to flank the spellcasting monster...move and flank.
So having a body is a valuable contribution to a party? Anyone can flank. Most classes can flank better.

Or be a temporary meatshield (monks have the ability to have sky high ac quite easily as well as hit points). Thus specialising in damaging won't be as effective if you don't max it some way...First, I don't see the connection here. Second, why would you be an effective meatshield? You're not a threat.

brian c
2007-11-17, 06:02 PM
Superior unarmed strike+monk's belt for unarmed damage(plus fists count as large thanks to goliath's powerful build).

Unfortunately, doesn't work this way. Powerful Build only affects certain things, and by RAW unarmed damage isn't one of them.


Leap attack and mantis leap. Also impr. trip + knockdown (i'm using some feats from sword and fist which is 3.0, which may or may nor be allowed depending on the DM). Tattoed monk for ocean tatoo(no longer need to eat, drink or sleep). Swordsage gives an unnamed bonus to AC equal to wis so i get wis x2 to ac(dunno if they stack by raw, but it was allowed by my DM). Other feats i was thinking of taking are impr. natural attack, power attack, power lunge and shock trooper which might work for your build.

For a theoretical build like this, I'm not using anything 3.0 (otherwise I'd definitely get Circle Kick), and I also don't want to use Swordsage. I love ToB, but using ToB in a monk build is kinda cheating.


Claws of the beast seem nice, as well as vestigial wings, but i don't know whether you can fit wings of flying along with the wings since you already have a set...DM houserule i gues...

By the description of Vestigial Wings, it doesn't say that there's any interaction with items of any kind. A DM might rule that, but by RAW there's no problem. If I were to use this build in an actual game, I would try to ask the DM for an Abyssal Heritor feat to make the wings useful (similar to the wing feats for Kobolds in Races of the Dragon) and ditch the Wings of Flying.


Poison talons might seem nice, but you need much higher con to get them to actually work in high levels...

I don't know exactly what you get with having 7 demonic heritor feats, but i would guess that the other feats are dependent on the total right?

All of the Abyssal Heritor feats (except for Poison Talons) improve based on how many you have. Poison talons is just there because it's an Abyssal Heritor feat; if someone fails the poison save that's great, but I wouldn't be planning on it.


Demonic skin seems nice, but if you remove paragon and add feral you get +6 natural armor and str, con and wis bonuses. Feral would also give you darkvision so you don't need eyes of the abyss...

Feral is a very strong template. Many people would argue that it's broken. It would definitely increase the power level of this build (though I'd prefer to drop a Pious Templar level, since the 3rd level of Human Paragon gives +1 spellcasting and a +2 ability boost)


Besides, with all the abyss feats you miss out on a lot i think...the reason i avoid them is because you focus too much on one thing and monks are supposed to be all rounders. Also with the pious templar and cleric levels you increase your spellcasting ability but very little i think...11 level clerics cast up to 6th level spells which only be useful for buffing youself since your DCs wouldn't be high enough to affect anyone at level 18 or 20...

Level 11 cleric with War and Strength domains has the access to the following spells: Righteous Might (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/righteousMight.htm), Slay Living (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/slayLiving.htm), Wing Walk (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm), Harm/Heal, Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), Invisibility Purge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityPurge.htm), Bull's Strength (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bullsStrength.htm) (and similar), Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm), and many more utility spells. Do not underestimate the effectiveness of Cleric self-buffing. High wisdom means a very good number of spells/day, despite not having all that many cleric levels. I can also cast Bull's Strength from the Pious Templar spells (uses Blackguard spell list)


Thus instead you could get a few more levels of monk or tatooed monk. There are some very good tattoos if you take a few more levels...Also, 27 ac isn't much...at 11 level i had 51...which wasn't hittable even from the BBEG(hehe...i still remember my poor DM rolling against me asking how much my ac was and then contorting his face..hihihi)

27 was my first draft AC; it's up to 44 now, which isn't the best ever but it's nothing to laugh at, especially with 25+ Touch AC.


Besides, i would say that your AR isn't that high either seeing how most of the monsters have ACs barely hittable...

AR isn't great, but being invisible helps, and AR can go up a pretty good amount with all the Cleric buffs active.


If you really want to play this build without changing it too much, to drop some demonic heritor feats(with the exception of demonic claws maybe). Since monks don't hit all that much you need to make each hit count. Maybe 2 levels of swordsage for the AC bonus. Superior unarmed strike and impr natural attack.

Also using enlarge person can significantly increase your damage the hight the die you are using. Thus it would outweigh the -1 to AR and AC if you combine it with superior unarmed strike and impr natural weapon. I should think that superior unarmed strike and monk's belt do stack since it's not from the same source. Thus an item using the monk's belt price but in another slot would not further increase it, since they are different sources they might stack. For example, bull's strength and bracers of str +4 don't stack because its the same spell. But if you had a feat that enhances your str or a tatto (from tatooed monk) that enhances your str as a supernatural ability, you probably have a good chance of convincing your DM they do stack.

I don't believe I mentioned it above, but Enlarge Person is on the Cleric spell list, and so is Righteous Might which also enlarges. Improved Natural Attack is a great feat for any Monk, and if I had an extra feat i would take it (unfortunately can't do it with a Flaw because of the BAB prereq)

Monk's Belt/Superior Unarmed Strike stacking is debatable, but read carefully. They both say (for someone with Monk levels) that your Monk level is treated as if it were X levels higher than it really is. It's not the same source, but it's the same effect with a different X, so it's just overlapping and Monk's belt is higher.


Precognitive vision is also quite good! I would also think(concerning items) getting a belt of battle, its quite hip:smallwink:

As I said, I didn't use any items from outside of SRD. I'm sure there are great things out there though, but I don't have the Magic Item Compendium.


Finally, i believe that a monk is actually useful because of his ability to be an all around player thus limiting him to battle isn't quite useful. You can't be a meatshield because of your low AC. You won't be very damaging, because your attacks will probably hit half the time and your damage isn't as good. Maybe kensai would be a good choice to bump up your damage. Your mobility isn't as good either what with 2 levels of monk and no other speed increase...You can jump very well but that isn't much help is it since you have wings of flying and you don't have any feats requiring you to jump...

Also the reason i'm so opposed to half spellcaster builds is that you essentially waste actions when you should be fighting or pursuing. It also gives your opponent a chance to attack. Also since you only have 8 intelligence you can't use spells in combat since you won't have much by way of concentration. Tumble is also essential i would think and since you have dex 20 it should help. Also this character would only work in a very evil party and you probably wouldn't be accepted into any town with all the demonic looking things about you...Plus you can't disguise youself. Monks are already underrated and people are trying to make them specialize in one particular area whereas i think that they were created to be good alrlounders with a correct choice of feats. Sure they can't defeat a fighter like char at melee, they can't kill wizards etc, but they have a pretty good support role and in the end the situation might depend on you. For example the fighter is busy protecting the cleric and wizard by blocking the monster's way and the rogue needs someone to flank the spellcasting monster...move and flank. Or be a temporary meatshield (monks have the ability to have sky high ac quite easily as well as hit points). Thus specialising in damaging won't be as effective if you don't max it some way...

Responding to all of this: I'm not going to play this in a game. It's a theoretical build. I wanted to show that using an uncommon set of feats, and some creative multiclassing, you can make a very nice unarmed/unarmored combatant (without using ToB). It's a bit min-maxed, so it is intended to specialize in combat, but it also does things that make up for Monk's ordinary weaknesses, with the thanks of the Cleric spellcasting.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-17, 08:45 PM
Read the first post please. The build is Cleric 1 / Human Paragon 3 / Monk 2 / Sacred Fist 10 / Pious Templar 4

Bah. Posted it at 5 am after being awake for 3 hours straight watching a DVD. Find some way to get Dragon blood and go Disciple of the Eye then?

XenoGeno
2007-11-17, 08:55 PM
One little nit-pick; don't the periapt of Wisdom and Amulet of Mighty Fists use the same body slot and therefore you can't use both?

Temp
2007-11-17, 08:58 PM
One little nit-pick; don't the periapt of Wisdom and Amulet of Mighty Fists use the same body slot and therefore you can't use both? Magic Item Compendium makes that sort of thing legal under the rationale that those sorts of enchantments are necessary for a character.

brian c
2007-11-17, 09:00 PM
One little nit-pick; don't the periapt of Wisdom and Amulet of Mighty Fists use the same body slot and therefore you can't use both?

I know I wrote a lot of text, so sorry if you didn't notice. I did mention this; there are rules for using alternate body slots, which cost a little more. I didn't do anything about that, but I did notice it. Dump the Orange Ioun Stone, drop the Tome of Wisdom to +4, there are some other things to do to save money and afford those differently slotted items.


Magic Item Compendium makes that sort of thing legal under the rationale that those sorts of enchantments are necessary for a character.

Really? Like I said, I don't have MIC, but if it says that it's okay, excellent.

XenoGeno
2007-11-17, 09:04 PM
Gotcha. Yeah, I missed that.:smalltongue:

Armads
2007-11-17, 09:52 PM
Why did you go Strength Domain? The Feat of Strength will only give you a +1 enhancement bonus to strength. Also, can you just worship a philosophical ideal or something like that?

brian c
2007-11-17, 10:04 PM
Why did you go Strength Domain? The Feat of Strength will only give you a +1 enhancement bonus to strength. Also, can you just worship a philosophical ideal or something like that?

Strength has good spells: Enlarge Person, Bull's Strength, Righteous Might, Stoneskin. There might be a better domain instead, if you'd like to suggest one.

Worshiping an ideal would be fine, but I don't know what the rules are for favored weapons with that, as the War domain bonus feat Weapon Focus (deity's weapon = unarmed strike) is pretty important.

Armads
2007-11-17, 10:44 PM
Fate's an awesome domain. Gives Uncanny Dodge. Pride's very good too (lets you reroll a save anytime you roll a 1, must take previous roll. Unlimited uses per day.)

brian c
2007-11-17, 11:12 PM
Fate's an awesome domain. Gives Uncanny Dodge. Pride's very good too (lets you reroll a save anytime you roll a 1, must take previous roll. Unlimited uses per day.)

Fate has a decent granted power, but spells aren't very good. True Strike is nice.

Where's Pride from? It's not on the Crystalkeep list of domains.

Armads
2007-11-17, 11:39 PM
Pride's in spell compendium. It gives Divine Power, Greater Heroism, a few charm spells, eagle's splendor, heroism, and a few other spells. It's good for the granted power, but it's spells are rather weak (like Forbiddance, Mass Charm Monster as a 9th level spell, Mass reduce person as a 5th level spell)