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Emperor Demonking
2007-11-17, 11:19 AM
How does a dragon protect itself from a party at low levels.
" " up to ten levels
" " up to fifteen levels.

How can a CR 20 dragon protect itself from wizards.

Plus
How can a Cr 20 dragon best try and destroy a kingdom.
Ho can a Cr 20 dragon kill a level 20 party.

Jothki
2007-11-17, 11:21 AM
The easiest way to protect yourself is to make sure that no one ever wants to kill you. If the dragon has an unavoidably evil agenda, put them behind as much humanoid cover as possible.

Setra
2007-11-17, 11:37 AM
Have a very high dex.

MrNexx
2007-11-17, 12:23 PM
Think of a dragon as sort of the ultimate Battle Sorcerer... instead of armored casting, though, they've got natural armor, and they don't suffer from a reduction in spells known.

Since they are sorcerers, make the most of your spells known. Choose spells carefully that will help you throughout your career. A great example is Shield; it's a nice +4 to AC, and makes you immune to Magic Missile. Disguise Self can help you hide what kind of dragon you are... it's not that big of a change going from Red to Blue, and if you live in mountains next to a desert, they're likely to believe it, and hit you with a bunch of fire, instead of the electricity that you're "obviously" immune to.

Make friends and influence people. Over time, you will wind up with gold and magic items. Take the magic items that are most useful to you and keep them. The ones you can't use you should sell to get money. Invest that money in other enterprises to make more money. This gets you friends. For example, say you buy, after a particularly successful venture, several hundred head of cattle, and hire people to work them. They are far less likely to mind if you take a cow if it's already yours.

Study. Hire tutors in things you do not know. You might look into actively pursuing magic (i.e. becoming a wizard) to supplement your natural abilties. It will take you a while (i.e. high ECL), but you've got time. So long as everyone is willing, you don't have much to worry about.

de-trick
2007-11-17, 12:28 PM
If you have a magic item wear it, don't just have it laying around

Raistlin1040
2007-11-17, 12:42 PM
If you have a magic item wear it, don't just have it laying around

That doesn't always work. Dragons are very large creatures. Amulets, rings, boots, helmets, ect. Aren't usually tailored for their size. Rather, the dragon should polymorph it'self into a powerful humanoid form, and fight in that form as much as possible, then return to dragon form to finish off the party.

puppyavenger
2007-11-17, 12:50 PM
take 12 levels from the dragon ascenednt class.

tyckspoon
2007-11-17, 12:51 PM
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

Weapons and armor are fixed at one size, but cloaks, rings, amulets, belts, and other miscellany should be adjustable enough to fit on some part of the dragon.

Setra
2007-11-17, 12:54 PM
:roy: How could I miss? I rolled a 19!
*One explanation later*
:durkon: Ye have HOW many amulets of Natural Armor on yer tail?

Yes I realize that's not legal but I found it funny.

I shouldn't post when I'm tired.

GoC
2007-11-17, 01:35 PM
Give the dragon a template that gives -4 STR, -2 CON and +1 CR but increases CL to become equal to the Dragon's HD.
That gives you tons of new options to play with because the PCs can't dispel all your dragon's buff/illusions with a single Dispel Magic.:smallcool:

Oh yeah, and give it immunity to 0 Dex (Shivering Touch).:smallbiggrin:

Draz74
2007-11-17, 02:51 PM
If you have high-level spellcasting on your dragon, be sure to learn Antimagic Field. If you can't do that, then just DON'T FIGHT FULL CASTERS who have any broken spells like Shivering Touch.

Other than that, be careful about the terrain of your battle. An area that is either so cramped that they can't escape your full attacks, or is so open that you can abuse your huge Fly speed and Flyby Attack, is ideal. Anything in between gives the adventurers more of a chance.

Also, take Craft Wondrous Item. Dragons don't need XP in order to advance in HD or age categories; yet they presumably have a fair amount of XP from all the battles they've fought all their lives. So ... magical traps around their lair? Yes please.

Mordan
2007-11-17, 03:04 PM
You know, I was reading this and sitting here thinking of a few things. How many dragons are there in the DnD world? For that matter how many dungeons are there? I've been playing since the beginning (or close enough to it that it's irrelevant) and am thinking back on how many dungeons parties I've been in have utterly destroyed, how many dragons and tarrasque and such we've killed, how many orcs and kobold tribes we've wiped off the face of the planet and am left to wonder one thing. Where in the hell are the new ones coming from? Honestly, we've killed them all. Genocide. I know it's a big word, but there aren't any left. Gold and magical items? We've gotten them all. Nothing left for anyone else to mess with. And raiding wherever we stashed them is pretty rediculous, since no one will ever be high enough level, since there are no monsters left to fight, to be able to reach a high enough level to even consider being able to come after the stuff. Just give up now.

Was this to far off topic?

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-17, 03:07 PM
You know, I was reading this and sitting here thinking of a few things. How many dragons are there in the DnD world?

That's a good question. There has to be quite a large population with the ~48 types of dragons in 3.5 and each type has at least one group of a few males and females. Granted they don't all live on the material plane, but most do and that's a lot of dragons.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-17, 03:13 PM
Simple. Every time we debate real world physics in D&D, a dragon, Tarrasque, or epic level bartender spawns. It's the opposite to the Catgirl Elimination Mechanism.

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 03:16 PM
Dragons are invincible battle platforms of death and magic. Just make sure you use their feats and spells known on useful things. Remember that many dragons can take cleric spells as their spells known. A dragon casting heal is serious business. Some useful feats for dragons are: Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Snatch, Improved Snatch (Draconomicon), Rend (Draconomicon), Tail Constrict (Draconomicon), Multisnatch (Draconomicon).

If you're a RAW fiend and want to TPK, just have the dragon do one of these two things:

* cast antimagic field
* cast breath weapon substitution or admixture and use Maximize Breath

It's about as unfair as the dragon getting shivering touched to death, but it will work.

Townopolis
2007-11-17, 03:26 PM
Simple. Every time we debate real world physics in D&D, a dragon, Tarrasque, or epic level bartender spawns. It's the opposite to the Catgirl Elimination Mechanism.

Conservation of matter at work for you.

I'm in support of an AMF. An ancient green dragon (CR 21) casts as a 13th level sorcerer. A very old green dragon (CR 19) casts as 11th level. So logically a CR 20 green dragon would cast as a 12th level sorcerer, allowing him/her to cast AMF and then you're just plain tougher than everyone else.

Ryshan Ynrith
2007-11-17, 03:31 PM
Scintillating Scales is always useful...low-level spell that transforms any natural armor bonus you have into a Deflection bonus. Wizards that like rays will not be pleased. It's in the Spell Compendium, if I recall correctly.

Xefas
2007-11-17, 03:43 PM
Conservation of matter at work for you.

Wait...so dragons are actually made from recycled catgirls?

Tequila Sunrise
2007-11-17, 03:54 PM
Where in the hell are the new ones coming from?

Spawn points.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 04:14 PM
Dragons are invincible battle platforms of death and magic. Just make sure you use their feats and spells known on useful things. Remember that many dragons can take cleric spells as their spells known. A dragon casting heal is serious business. Some useful feats for dragons are: Practiced Spellcaster, Power Attack, Snatch, Improved Snatch (Draconomicon), Rend (Draconomicon), Tail Constrict (Draconomicon), Multisnatch (Draconomicon).

If you're a RAW fiend and want to TPK, just have the dragon do one of these two things:

* cast antimagic field
* cast breath weapon substitution or admixture and use Maximize Breath

It's about as unfair as the dragon getting shivering touched to death, but it will work.
Two nitpicks. First, how does the breath weapon (a supernatural ability) work inside an antimagic field? Second, if the dragon is particularly old and large, will he fit completely inside the antimagic field?

MrNexx
2007-11-17, 04:19 PM
Y'all, can we try to be helpful here, instead of silly?

At the lowest levels, the dragon's greatest ally is mobility. This is when their mobility is usually the greatest, and adventurers' is usually the lowest. Unless you've got above-CR adventurers hunting you, simply staying away from them is your best option.

At mid levels you've got the most problems. Adventurers are coming into their full powers, and you haven't really come into yours... you are, in most cases, just a big, strong, lizard with wings, and they're gaining scads of class abilities. This why you should be building alliances when you're younger... your summer is your worst time, because it is usually when adventurers can do the most damage to you. Build alliances, learn things, buy useful items... everything you can to cement your place. You might support a hobgoblin tribe, using them to help defend your lair, while providing them air cover in their attacks and advice to their leaders. You might have a kobold tribe come live in and around your lair, or cultivate relationships with a nearby city of elves or kingdom of merfolk... whatever is appropriate for where you live, and will make good allies.

At high levels, you've got the advantage of being Batman and a superior warrior at the same time, so you have much less to worry about. The extremely powerful can go after you, but you've got enough power to meet them on their own terms.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-11-17, 04:33 PM
To put it quite simply, Dragons tend t ohave very high Int scores, and should be played as such. This is a creature that has hundreds of mortal lifetimes to sit around and contemplate things, and a natural brain surpassing most other creatures around. She should have plans to kill the party before they even get to fight her, she should have figured out ways to wear as many magical items as she can (imagine a dragon-sized chainmail glove made of human-sized magical rings. It doesn't matter if they don't all stack, you'll get the best of the set and the thing itself will be brutally intimidating to any foes). If she's spending most of her time in her horde, why not set up traps she knows about by heart but adventurers won't.

Idea Man
2007-11-17, 05:02 PM
Don't forget their fear aura. I can't count the number of times I remembered at the end of a fight. The DCs are respectable at all levels, and there's no reason to cut out a perfectly good perk.

Frosty
2007-11-17, 05:55 PM
Try to make sure your party fights Dragons with the Cold subtype, so shivering touch deos nothing.

AslanCross
2007-11-17, 06:00 PM
Two nitpicks. First, how does the breath weapon (a supernatural ability) work inside an antimagic field? Second, if the dragon is particularly old and large, will he fit completely inside the antimagic field?

1. No, it doesn't work. I believe that's actually an example given in one of the core books.

2. AMF only has a radius of 10 feet, so I don't think a colossal dragon would fit.

OP: You might want to check out the Draconomicon. It has a lot of good feats for dragons. Wingstorm is a pretty nasty way of knocking the wind out of PCs. (Or knocking them out with wind). Monster Manual V also has the Dragons of the Great Game template, which allows dragons to give up SR and spellcasting for abilities that might be more useful in general. (Berserker power, energy auras, etc)

greenknight
2007-11-17, 06:12 PM
The best protection for Dragons is to not be found. Those who can should cast Mind Blank on a daily basis. For those who can't manage that but can cast 3rd level spells (for most True Dragons, that's the Young - Mature Adult range), Nondetection is an acceptable substitute. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. For those who can't do even that, if they're smart they'll coat their lairs in lead, and shut the (lead coated) door behind them.

The next thing is to protect your weak spots. It's well known all Dragons have two major weaknesses - their low Touch AC, and their low Dexterity score. Fortunately for a Dragon, both weaknesses can be almost completely covered by the same thing - a Rod of Absorption. Having one in the Dragon's possession not only protects it from all single-target spells or rays directed at it (up to the Rod's level capacity), it also powers up the Dragon's spellcasting. The Dragon does still have a low touch AC, but once you eliminate single target spells and rays, there are few things which can take advantage of it.

After that, it's time to mislead and confuse. For those Dragons who can swing it, a Simulacrum is an excellent decoy. If you have an alternate form, make use of it to appear as some other creature (preferably one which can interact with the common intelligent races without creating a fuss). Hire some minions and have them spread rumors of your death. Have others obtain some protective magical items for you (as a Dragon, you can never have too many Rods of Absorbtion).

Most of these suggestions take gold, and often a lot of it, to pull off. That's why Dragons are so obsessive about wealth. :smallwink:

Zanatos777
2007-11-17, 06:44 PM
I had an idea. Dragon's often have trouble due to casters dispelling their buffs right? Why not have the dragon take five levels in Abjurant Champion? That would give the dragon a much higher caster level (around 30+), increase its attack bonus/spell levels, and give it the other little goodies that the Champion has.

Edit: I apologize if this is off-topic.

F.L.
2007-11-17, 07:43 PM
A colossal dragon that's casting metamagic field can always get a metamagic rod of widen spell. That should up the radius of the burst to 20', which should encompass a 30'x20' area that the dragon is in. It may even be able to poke its snout out of the metamagic field when exhaling, for kicks. Now, if it could just find a way to make foes stay put for the full attack, that'd be pretty much it.

greenknight
2007-11-17, 07:56 PM
I had an idea. Dragon's often have trouble due to casters dispelling their buffs right?

Not really. The biggest problem a Dragon faces is spellcasters (specifically Clerics, Sorcerers and Wizards) locating them, teleporting in and hitting them with things like a Maximized Shivering Touch (probably after using Assay Spell Resistance first to reduce the Dragon's SR). At that point, the Dragon's usually paralyzed (0 Dexterity) and ready to be killed. Said characters have usually had a Heroes' Feast first (or something else that makes them immune to fear) and some ability to fly if they need it, since they are hunting Dragons, after all. If the Dragon is hard to find, and protected by one or more Rods of Absorbtion, then trying to dispel its buffs won't be all that useful.


A colossal dragon that's casting metamagic field can always get a metamagic rod of widen spell.

Maybe. But you'd need to tell me which book a Metamagic Rod of Widen Spell is in, because I can't find it anywhere from an official source.

deadseashoals
2007-11-17, 07:59 PM
Two nitpicks. First, how does the breath weapon (a supernatural ability) work inside an antimagic field? Second, if the dragon is particularly old and large, will he fit completely inside the antimagic field?

Not both at the same time, that wouldn't work. A dragon in an antimagic field is relying on the fact that everyone else in an antimagic field is worse than he is, and it's pretty much true. If you thought it was tough for your tank to slug it out with a dragon with all of his WBL gear, imagine the horror. It's pretty unfair.

As for the size question, I've always played that emanations come from the edges of your spaces - otherwise, emanations for medium sized creatures require you to pick a corner of your space every damn round, and that's extremely annoying. If you don't play this way, the dragon needs a metamagic rod of widen spell to push the radius to 20 feet, which is guaranteed to include any size of dragon.

martyboy74
2007-11-17, 08:34 PM
Maybe. But you'd need to tell me which book a Metamagic Rod of Widen Spell is in, because I can't find it anywhere from an official source.

Did you check the MIC?

greenknight
2007-11-17, 09:14 PM
Did you check the MIC?

MIC has metamagic rods of chaining, reach, sculpting and substitution, and that's it as far as I can tell. What page number is the Metamagic Rod of Widen Spell on?