Frenzy alternative: frenzy costs hit dice?

[H_H_F_F]

It seems like most people agree that frenzy granting exhaustion levels is too harsh and creates a limitation too severe. If you agree with this premise, but still think it should cost something, how do you feel about making frenzy cost, say, two hit dice?

It stays on theme with frenzy meaning tapping into finite resources and making you more vulnerable. It's becoming a less severe penalty as you progress in level (matches with more uses of rage / day, and penalizing frenzying the hardest during the levels before extra attack, when it's relatively most effective) and it uses an existing mechanic which is easy to grasp and handle. It's a real price, but it's completely usable throughout one's adventuring career.

What do you guys think?

[Man_Over_Game]

It seems like most people agree that frenzy granting exhaustion levels is too harsh and creates a limitation too severe. If you agree with this premise, but still think it should cost something, how do you feel about making frenzy cost, say, two hit dice?

It stays on theme with frenzy meaning tapping into finite resources and making you more vulnerable. It's becoming a less severe penalty as you progress in level (matches with more uses of rage / day, and penalizing frenzying the hardest during the levels before extra attack, when it's relatively most effective) and it uses an existing mechanic which is easy to grasp and handle. It's a real price, but it's completely usable throughout one's adventuring career.

What do you guys think?

Alternatively, it could cost one hit die to activate the Frenzy Attack, but but the Hit Die grants you THP for the roll when you hit with it. It encourages recklessness, since THP doesn't stack (and you have to absorb a ton of damage to get the most value out of iit, and it separates the requirement of tying a Rage use to the Frenzy cost (so you can choose to pay the costs separately instead of playing it safe).

I dunno, just a thought. Berserker's Frenzy is a good feature and all, it just seems silly that it has to have extra costs just to barely break even with the Zealot, who gets a bunch of defensive features on top of the free scaling magic damage.

I like your idea too, though, I'm just a big fan of giving barbarians good reasons not to be Raging every turn, all of the time.

[Ralanr]

Alternatively, it could cost one hit die each turn it's active, but grants you THP for the roll. It encourages recklessness, since THP doesn't stack (and you have to absorb a ton of damage to get the most value out of it).

I dunno, just a thought. Berserker's Frenzy is a good feature and all, it just seems silly that it has to have extra costs just to barely break even with the Zealot, who gets a bunch of defensive features on top of the free scaling magic damage.

Does it really scale that close with zealot? I thought it scaled harder.

[Man_Over_Game]

Does it really scale that close with zealot? I thought it scaled harder.

It's an extra attack at the cost of a bonus action
VS
+1d6 Necrotic/Radiant + (1/2 Barbarian Level) once a turn.

Consider that most fights last 3-4 rounds, the Berserker can't Rage and Frenzy Attack in the same turn, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Berserker's feature adds a whopping +100% damage before level 5, but then it drops to +50%.

Sure, +50% damage for every turn past the first is pretty good, but that's still hard to keep up with a Battlemaster Fighter with Action Surge. Barbarians don't always have the best damage output, which means we have a lot more wiggle room to work with when it comes to designing the first Martial subclass with drawbacks.

[P. G. Macer]

It's an extra attack at the cost of a bonus action
VS
+1d10 Necrotic/Radiant + (1/2 Barbarian Level) once a turn.

Consider that most fights last 3-4 rounds, the Berserker can't Rage and Frenzy Attack in the same turn, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Zealot’s bonus damage is 1d6, not 1d10.

[Man_Over_Game]

Zealot’s bonus damage is 1d6, not 1d10.

Sorry, you're right.

The 1/2 scaling is pretty big, though. That's a die increase every 2 levels, so it doesn't take much to compete with a 1d12 weapon, especially considering there's no cost for it.

Simply the fact that your Bonus Action's available means that a Zealot can benefit from several good Barbarian feats whereas the Berserker can't.

Even GWM comes with some antisynergies for the standard Berserker, so a solution that doesn't require your BA every turn is probably ideal.

[Ralanr]

It's an extra attack at the cost of a bonus action
VS
+1d6 Necrotic/Radiant + (1/2 Barbarian Level) once a turn.

Consider that most fights last 3-4 rounds, the Berserker can't Rage and Frenzy Attack in the same turn, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Berserker's feature adds a whopping +100% damage before level 5, but then it drops to +50%.

Sure, +50% damage for every turn past the first is pretty good, but that's still hard to keep up with a Battlemaster Fighter with Action Surge. Barbarians don't always have the best damage output, which means we have a lot more wiggle room to work with when it comes to designing the first Martial subclass with drawbacks.

Ah ok. I guess it makes sense that the zealot is just the berserker 2.0. Not the first time WOTC has printed a new subclass to 'fix' one that doesn't work.

[H_H_F_F]

Alternatively, it could cost one hit die to activate the Frenzy Attack, but but the Hit Die grants you THP for the roll when you hit with it. It encourages recklessness, since THP doesn't stack (and you have to absorb a ton of damage to get the most value out of iit, and it separates the requirement of tying a Rage use to the Frenzy cost (so you can choose to pay the costs separately instead of playing it safe).

I dunno, just a thought. Berserker's Frenzy is a good feature and all, it just seems silly that it has to have extra costs just to barely break even with the Zealot, who gets a bunch of defensive features on top of the free scaling magic damage.

I like your idea too, though, I'm just a big fan of giving barbarians good reasons not to be Raging every turn, all of the time.


That's a very cool idea. It's a radical change, and I feel like I'd want to see some playtesting for it, but as a concept - very cool.

[Segev]

Option 1: Spending a Hit Die to Frenzy
Just a suggested buff to the proposal in the OP: While raging, you can spend and roll a hit die to make an attack as a bonus action. You may add the result of the roll to either the attack or the damage; you may choose which after learning if the attack roll hit or missed. You may choose to recover the hit die at the end of your turn; if you do, you gain a level of exhaustion when your rage ends. You gain only one level of exhaustion from this feature at the end of a particular rage no matter how many times you recover the hit die.

Option 2: The Frenzy Die
This is a more complicated idea I came up with a few days ago that I figure this is a good thread to share it in.

Frenzying behaves as it does in the core PHB. However, when you frenzy, you gain a Frenzy Die. This die is a d12. If you already have a Frenzy Die when you would gain one, you must immediately expend the existing one (choosing one of the valid effects from the list below).

If you have a frenzy die when you start raging, you may ignore the effects of exhaustion for the duration of the rage. This includes if you choose to frenzy as part of starting the rage and gain a frenzy die that way. While you have a frenzy die, You may spend it in any of the following ways:
Recover a spent hit die.
Roll the Frenzy Die and add your Constitution modifier: gain that many temporary hp.
Roll the Frenzy Die and add it to the attack or damage roll of a strength-based attack.
Roll the Frenzy Die and add it to a Strength, Constitution, or Wisdom saving throw.
Roll the Frenzy Die and add it to a Strength ability check.
During a short rest, when you expend and roll a hit die to heal, add the Frenzy Die to the amount healed, and recover a level of exhaustion.

This is a pure addition to the existing frenzy rules, and gives a means of recovering up to one exhaustion level gained from frenzying per short rest. If you want to push it, you CAN, still, but now you have one semi-free use. And it gives you some additional one-off perks when you've frenzied.

[loki_ragnarock]

It seems like most people agree that frenzy granting exhaustion levels is too harsh and creates a limitation too severe. If you agree with this premise, but still think it should cost something, how do you feel about making frenzy cost, say, two hit dice?

It stays on theme with frenzy meaning tapping into finite resources and making you more vulnerable. It's becoming a less severe penalty as you progress in level (matches with more uses of rage / day, and penalizing frenzying the hardest during the levels before extra attack, when it's relatively most effective) and it uses an existing mechanic which is easy to grasp and handle. It's a real price, but it's completely usable throughout one's adventuring career.

What do you guys think?

This is what I do.

Except I make the math more fiddly because I don't always follow my own advice.

I do HD expenditure = 1 + # of times frenzy has been used in a day. When you get it at level three, you can use it twice at the cost of all your HD. You can use it an additional time at level 7, an additional time at level 12, an additional time at 18. It doesn't *quite* match up with being one less than the number of rages you can do in a day across the entire progression, but it mostly does.

Your calculation is better, because it's simpler.
It's a little rougher at level 3, but better for the Berserker at every point after.

[Quietus]

Radical suggestion - remove the exhaustion cost entirely. Let them attack with their bonus. It won't work on the first round, it puts them as the top barbarian DPS in those later rounds (as they should be, being the berserker), but it means that certain portions of popular feats aren't as good for them because they don't benefit from bonus action attacks. It's fine.

[Segev]

Radical suggestion - remove the exhaustion cost entirely. Let them attack with their bonus. It won't work on the first round, it puts them as the top barbarian DPS in those later rounds (as they should be, being the berserker), but it means that certain portions of popular feats aren't as good for them because they don't benefit from bonus action attacks. It's fine.

oh, that is absolutely the simplest fix. These alternate fixes are all trying to capture, to some degree, the old-school berserker's exhaustion after frenzying, which the current rules give us...but at way to high a cost for too little benefit.

The Path of the Berserker getting to frenzy and attack as a bonus action when raging, with no other costs associated, would be totally balanced.

[Ralanr]

oh, that is absolutely the simplest fix. These alternate fixes are all trying to capture, to some degree, the old-school berserker's exhaustion after frenzying, which the current rules give us...but at way to high a cost for too little benefit.

The Path of the Berserker getting to frenzy and attack as a bonus action when raging, with no other costs associated, would be totally balanced.

Yeah, beyond legacy I see no real reason to actually give it a penalty. None of the others have, and when it came out Bear totem was considered the strongest because of how resistances worked.

[Man_Over_Game]

oh, that is absolutely the simplest fix. These alternate fixes are all trying to capture, to some degree, the old-school berserker's exhaustion after frenzying, which the current rules give us...but at way to high a cost for too little benefit.

The Path of the Berserker getting to frenzy and attack as a bonus action when raging, with no other costs associated, would be totally balanced.

Sure, but would it be better?

There aren't other examples of a self-afflicting subclass feature in 5e. Sure, Berserker wasn't strong, but everyone knew about it and how it was unique in 5e. Just giving it Frenzy 2.0 would make it feel incredibly redundant to...every other Barbarian subclass.

[Segev]

Sure, but would it be better?

There aren't other examples of a self-afflicting subclass feature in 5e. Sure, Berserker wasn't strong, but everyone knew about it and how it was unique in 5e. Just giving it Frenzy 2.0 would make it feel incredibly redundant to...every other Barbarian subclass.

Making players not feel punished for taking and using an ability that isn't any better than others they can take without punishment is always better game design, yes.

I agree that it would be more desirable to find a way to buff things and make it so that the "you get tired from your frenzy" flavor is either worth the mechanical cost, or isn't as bad as it sounds, though. But, as a simple fix, just removing the exhaustion is workable. It's still a weaker ability, since it consumes your bonus action and that makes it combo less well with other things. Assuming you multiclass.

[Zhorn]

On H_H_F_F suggestion in post #1 about using hit dice... not entirely on board that idea.
I do think the idea has merit and isn't bad, but as a general solution with how wide the variance is between groups on how they run their rests, hit dice are anywhere from a severe cost to using a resource that is barely touched at all. It could be workable if the rest model was locked down.

On Man_Over_Game (post #2) hit dice to temp hp.... I'm stealing that for a magic item independent of frenzy, I like it.

Segev at #9. not bad ideas, but bunching them all together under a single feature is just a bit too much. "Here's a feature, it does everything". Fundamentally Berserkers are simple and I think we should try to preserve that.

personal take, there was a thread with Segev a while back on the frenzy topic (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628103-Berserker-level-3-reworking&highlight=frenzy+exhaustion+dc), and I still lean into the idea I got from that (or at least a take on it)
Frenzy isn't a state you activate, it's just something you can do while raging:

Frenzy: While raging, you can make a weapon attack as a bonus action followed by a DC 10 CON save versus exhaustion
The intent is exhaustion is still present as a serious risk, but with both CON save proficiency and an incentive to invest in that stat as a barbarian anyway it is a risk you eventually level out from once you get that modifier up to a +9.
The save being each time you use the attack is why it stays at a DC 10. It's reasonably low but repetition increases the chance of at least one failure if used constantly over a long fight.
This puts Frenzy in a similar design space as Reckless Attack, taking on a risk-reward model, but is kept very simple mechanically in execution.

[Psyren]

Just let Short Rests remove an exhaustion level like the Ranger does. Long Rests remove two. Simple and clean (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-5BfYY3DrM)

[Man_Over_Game]

Making players not feel punished for taking and using an ability that isn't any better than others they can take without punishment is always better game design, yes.

I agree that it would be more desirable to find a way to buff things and make it so that the "you get tired from your frenzy" flavor is either worth the mechanical cost, or isn't as bad as it sounds, though. But, as a simple fix, just removing the exhaustion is workable. It's still a weaker ability, since it consumes your bonus action and that makes it combo less well with other things. Assuming you multiclass.

Even if you don't, that discourages Shield Master, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and even dual-wielding. You're basically running a featless Barbarian at that point.

[Segev]

Even if you don't, that discourages Shield Master, Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and even dual-wielding. You're basically running a featless Barbarian at that point.

Why does it discourage Great Weapon Master? Polearm Master, the competition for the bonus action makes it less attractive, especially since frenzy gives you the big thing Pole Arm Master does, but with a better weapon. Ditto dual-wielding. Nothing wrong with a featless character, but there are feats that do things other than play into being a beatstick, and which can broaden your barbarian character's horizons if you want.

Interestingly, barbarians are one of the better options for dual-wielding (without frenzy), because they still add rage damage bonus to the off-hand attack. Of course, they're using much weaker weapons than barbarians typically do as a baseline, which is its own issue.

[Ralanr]

Interestingly, barbarians are one of the better options for dual-wielding (without frenzy), because they still add rage damage bonus to the off-hand attack. Of course, they're using much weaker weapons than barbarians typically do as a baseline, which is its own issue.

This is why I'd like to see a barbarian subclass with TWF support.

[loki_ragnarock]

Why does it discourage Great Weapon Master? Polearm Master, the competition for the bonus action makes it less attractive, especially since frenzy gives you the big thing Pole Arm Master does, but with a better weapon. Ditto dual-wielding. Nothing wrong with a featless character, but there are feats that do things other than play into being a beatstick, and which can broaden your barbarian character's horizons if you want.

Interestingly, barbarians are one of the better options for dual-wielding (without frenzy), because they still add rage damage bonus to the off-hand attack. Of course, they're using much weaker weapons than barbarians typically do as a baseline, which is its own issue.

GWM also has a bonus action attack component.

They'd probably still benefit from using it, just not to the fullness of the feat.

[Bobthewizard]

Radical suggestion - remove the exhaustion cost entirely. Let them attack with their bonus. It won't work on the first round, it puts them as the top barbarian DPS in those later rounds (as they should be, being the berserker), but it means that certain portions of popular feats aren't as good for them because they don't benefit from bonus action attacks. It's fine.

This is what I do and it's fine. I think it's the only way you'll ever see a berserker in your game. With the current rules, no one ever makes them.

[Segev]

GWM also has a bonus action attack component.

They'd probably still benefit from using it, just not to the fullness of the feat.

Oh, huh. I always forget Cleave got worked into it, and took a bonus action to use.

[Ralanr]

Oh, huh. I always forget Cleave got worked into it, and took a bonus action to use.

As did I. Feels odd how that doesn't work for a berserker barbarian. Probably something that would have been noticed sooner if not for the whole exhaustion red flag.

[loki_ragnarock]

As did I. Feels odd how that doesn't work for a berserker barbarian. Probably something that would have been noticed sooner if not for the whole exhaustion red flag.

Alternatively, the Berserker = ABC.

Always Be Cleaving.

[Ralanr]

Alternatively, the Berserker = ABC.

Always Be Cleaving.

Can't cleave if you use that bonus action for the third attack.

But I do appreciate Dr. Mundo's ADCs.

[Man_Over_Game]

I kinda like the idea of choosing to take some kind of cost for the benefit of a resourceless attack. Beast Barbarian shows that resourceless attacks can be balanced, so it should be fine as long as the penalty scales with how overpowered it is.

Could do something like making it cost a Hit Die for the swing, and you can do it again if you miss. You can keep swinging until you hit as long as you have Hit Dice to spare.

Something like that also frees up your Action so you can do some cool things like Dodge, spend a Hit Die to attack, then tank the enemy without losing your Rage. Through aggression, you could make a versatile, better tank.

Balance-wise, I'd probably err on the side of 2 Hit Dice to start, then 1 for each reswing after the first, but that's under the assumption that an extra attack at the cost of a Hit Die is too strong in the first place. It's a design space that hasn't ever really been touched, so it's hard to say exactly how powerful it'd end up being.

I do think that a perfect solution would be to take off pressure from the Bonus Action, since Barbarians already use it quite a bit. If the Frenzy Attack is to cost a Bonus Action, it probably should be something that's still worth doing but only occasionally (like maybe it exhausts you but is a crit on a hit).

[Segev]

Maybe take an even bigger step, and make Frenzy just grant an extra attack when you make the attack action?

No exhaustion, just the Berserker gets 2 attacks while raging at level 3, 3 attacks while raging at level 5+. Fighters catch up but do so all the time by level 11+. Bonus actions left open for TWF or GWM or whatever.

[Man_Over_Game]

Maybe take an even bigger step, and make Frenzy just grant an extra attack when you make the attack action?

No exhaustion, just the Berserker gets 2 attacks while raging at level 3, 3 attacks while raging at level 5+. Fighters catch up but do so all the time by level 11+. Bonus actions left open for TWF or GWM or whatever.

I'd be down, it just becomes extremely redundant between the "Aggressive subclass that gets free religion damage" and the "Aggressive subclass that gets free claw attacks".

At this rate, picking a Barbarian subclass might as well be picking a damage type and a save bonus for your subclass features.

[Ralanr]

Maybe take an even bigger step, and make Frenzy just grant an extra attack when you make the attack action?

No exhaustion, just the Berserker gets 2 attacks while raging at level 3, 3 attacks while raging at level 5+. Fighters catch up but do so all the time by level 11+. Bonus actions left open for TWF or GWM or whatever.

I do like this. Though I wonder if it makes fighter dips into barbarian even nuttier. That'd get 4 attacks by level 14. But then again, the campaign is likely over by then.

[Segev]

I do like this. Though I wonder if it makes fighter dips into barbarian even nuttier. That'd get 4 attacks by level 14. But then again, the campaign is likely over by then.

Maybe make their level 3 feature auto-upgrade at level 5 to no longer requiring a bonus action? That way it coincides with getting 2 attacks to become getting 3 plus freeing up the bonus action.

[Zhorn]

Try to keep it working the same way at higher levels as it is on the level you get access to it.
Changing how it fits into the action economy between levels will have someone at the table get confused and cause arguments sooner or later.

As for having it be costless or risk free AND be part of the attack action... Pretty sure that's a bit too strong.
Zealot tacs on 1d6+half barb level, but is dependant on your existing attacks to deliver
Beast barbarian is limited to a weaponless claw of 1d6+mods (I know it counts as a simple weapon, but the point is it'll never be a +3 flametongue)
Berserkers on the other hand is a complete weapon attack. That is significantly stronger than the other two comparisons, especially at low levels.

Pointing back again to that older thread, I'd like to repeat part of the discussion from last time we were talking about this;


Do you mean to say you think it might be too good, but aren't sure, or that you aren't sure that the assertion that it's too good is true? (Slightly different connotations, here.)
That it IS good, but might possibly be TOO good but I'm unsure of the extent.
For this I'm think of other classes and subclasses that grant bonus action attacks, where they seem to be a more limited resource (outside of TWF, but that for the other thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?628106-Another-quot-let-s-fix-Two-Weapon-Fighting-quot-thread)).
Limited to a number of Bonus Action attacks equal to WIS modifier, Proficiency Bonus, costing Superiority Dice.
Frenzy on the other hand is giving a Bonus Action Attack every round so long as you maintain the Frenzy. Granted Rage is a limited resource, but comparing how many round a Rage will be up in combat to be used with Frenzy times the number of Rages a Barbarian has to spend, and you end up with double to triple the number of Bonus Action attacks compared to the others.

Now Monks using Martial Arts have a very reliable Bonus Action Attack that is resourceless so long as they don't Flurry, but being restricted to unarmed strikes does put it in a very different design space. Early levels that die being rolled is small compared to the option of using a 2d6 or 1d12 the Berserker gets, and the compatibility with strong magic items can be rather potent, same with GWM attacks, and high level Brutal Criticals

Hence thinking it might be TOO good to cut out the exhaustion entirely.

[loki_ragnarock]

Maybe take an even bigger step, and make Frenzy just grant an extra attack when you make the attack action?

In some ways that would be a downgrade; the Berserker's ability allows the Berserker alot of flexibility with how they use their action. Need to dash to get into melee range? Cool, you still get an attack. Need to dodge? Cool, you still get an attack. Need to pick a lock? Cool, you still get an attack. Need to use a healer kit to stabilize your downed ally? Cool, you still get an attack. Need to lift that portcullis so the rest of your party can get through? Cool, you still get an attack.

Some of that is a little counterintuitive, but it's something pretty much only Berserkers can do. It doesn't usually come up that much in actual play, but it does insulate them a bit from the risk of losing the benefits of rage.


Do I think that's worth exhaustion? Not at all. I just think it's a weirdly interesting niche.

[Chronic]

What if we pushed the subclass a little farther. What did something a bit like battlemaster with the bonus action. Less options, less versatile but still, it would probably had a layer of strategy to the game play. You keep you the OG idea of spending HD to frenzy. The options could be like:
-frenzied sweep: the barbarian choose a target makes an attack, if it hit additional ennemies within 5 feet of the target takes half damage.
This is one example of bonus action, add two to 3 more and you'd have a barbarian that could be way more fun to play.