illusions interaction and disbelief

[liquidformat]

So I have a few goofy questions about interaction disbelief and so on for illusion spells.

I think my questions can best be brought to light with an example, let's say you create a bridge with permanent image.
First off is your belief in the fake bridge being real enough to let it be solid, ie you can walk on it like a real bridge as long as you believe it is a real bridge?
By that same logic, as you walk across the bridge (interacting) gives you a save to disbelieve and once you do you fall through the bridge, correct?
Finally, can you actively fail your save so you continue to 'believe' in the bridge being real?

[Psyren]

Permanent Image won't do this as it is purely a hologram. Even believing it is real won't make it real.

However, a shadow bridge made from something like like Shadow Evocation (Wall of Force) is a different matter - the illusion incorporates quasi-real energy/matter from the plane of shadow which, if believed, will function exactly like the wall of force it is based on - and thus be solid. You can in 3.5 and PF willingly fail your save on such a bridge to avoid falling through it.

[Misery Esquire]

So I have a few goofy questions about interaction disbelief and so on for illusion spells.

I think my questions can best be brought to light with an example, let's say you create a bridge with permanent image.
First off is your belief in the fake bridge being real enough to let it be solid, ie you can walk on it like a real bridge as long as you believe it is a real bridge?
By that same logic, as you walk across the bridge (interacting) gives you a save to disbelieve and once you do you fall through the bridge, correct?
Finally, can you actively fail your save so you continue to 'believe' in the bridge being real?

What you're looking for is Shadowcasting* - where as long as the targets believe it's real it acts as if it's real. Shadow Fireballs deal fireball damage, Shadow bridges can be walked on, etc.

Disbelieving removes the "Shadow object" for you, and possibly everyone else when you react to the new circumstances.** Choosing to fail to realize that you're not realizing something sounds like a use of Autohypnosis, or an Elan-esque level of thinking.


Illusion just pretends to be real, and if you fail your save/interaction you proceed as if it was real, but it fails to act as such. E.g. climbing onto an illusionary bridge will drop you into the pit/river/hazard anyway.

You may temporarily trick yourself into thinking it's real (starting onto the bridge may feel like you're stepping onto something), but reality doesn't agree with your perception.


*that might not be the exactly right name
**if you could somehow Shadowcast a 9th level spell, Genesis would have hilarious consequences.

[Particle_Man]

There are also various means to get the shadow magic up from 20% real even if you disbelieve to 100% real even if you disbelieve, which at that point means you are creating functionally real objects and creatures, albeit usually of temporary duration.

[Telonius]

Yeah, you're looking at Killer Gnome territory (Shadowcraft Mage). If you cheese it a bit, you can get the objects to be greater than 100% real. Meaning, it does more damage if you pass the save, than if you fail it.



**if you could somehow Shadowcast a 9th level spell, Genesis would have hilarious consequences.

Got you covered, (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell) starting in Epic levels. Enjoy kicking it back in your realer-than-real shadow realm.

[Misery Esquire]

Got you covered, (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell) starting in Epic levels. Enjoy kicking it back in your realer-than-real shadow realm.

Nice, hadn't even considered such an... Ordinary way would be available to resolve it.

Now I need to actually think about what happens when someone's in there and they Disbelieve the demiplane, rather than just joke about it.


So.
When it's believed in, it'd act as normal Genesis, starting a bubble plane off Ethereal, and growing 1' radius per day up to 180. For a person within the demiplane to walk to the edge it can't be treated illusionarily, because the Shadow is "real" until disbelieved. But where's 180' into a plane that doesn't exist?

They can't be blindly walking around Ethereal, because (again) unlike a usual illusion they're in a real fake demiplane. Until they stop believing.

And when they do, do they go to Ethereal? Back to wherever they started? Shadow, because of the source of your spell? Astral, because getting involved with extradimensional spaces always ends up Astral? Other?

Can you even planar travel to* a Shadow Genesis? What's the attunement of a fake plane?

"This is a fake world!"
"Then where did you Planeshift to?"
"... oh no..."
*pop*


*from isn't a problem, rare is the spell that cares where you're standing. (Yes, yes, AMFs dead magic, etc, I see you there.)

[Beni-Kujaku]

About the disbelieved shadow genesis, the result would be extremely interesting, if it was possible. But it's not. The only way to mimic a 9th level spell as a shadow illusion is with Shadowcraft mage. It needs at least a 10th level spell for that. Since Shadowcraft mage's illusions are 10% real per level of the spell used for the shadow illusion, and since there are ways to increase shadow quasireality but not decrease it, your shadow genesis will be at least 100% real. You are really creating a new demiplane by a standard action.

[Remuko]

About the disbelieved shadow genesis, the result would be extremely interesting, if it was possible. But it's not. The only way to mimic a 9th level spell as a shadow illusion is with Shadowcraft mage. It needs at least a 10th level spell for that. Since Shadowcraft mage's illusions are 10% real per level of the spell used for the shadow illusion, and since there are ways to increase shadow quasireality but not decrease it, your shadow genesis will be at least 100% real. You are really creating a new demiplane by a standard action.

but you can make it more than 100% real, then would it not be idk bigger I guess, for people who disbelieve than those who believe like how those who disbelieve a 120% real shadow fireball would take 20% more damage?

[Psyren]

but you can make it more than 100% real, then would it not be idk bigger I guess, for people who disbelieve than those who believe like how those who disbelieve a 120% real shadow fireball would take 20% more damage?

Reality wouldn't affect the size of a shadow bridge, just the chance to pass through it. I suppose you could translate that into 120% HP or hardness, but not size.

[Paragon]

If that helps, this is what I turn to when in doubt about illusions and disbelieving :
Part One (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060207a)
Part Two (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060214a)
Part Three (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a)
Part Four (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060228a)

Hope it helps

[Crake]

Yeah, you're looking at Killer Gnome territory (Shadowcraft Mage). If you cheese it a bit, you can get the objects to be greater than 100% real. Meaning, it does more damage if you pass the save, than if you fail it.



Got you covered, (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell) starting in Epic levels. Enjoy kicking it back in your realer-than-real shadow realm.

or you could just cast it as a sanctum spell within your sanctum.

[Remuko]

Reality wouldn't affect the size of a shadow bridge, just the chance to pass through it. I suppose you could translate that into 120% HP or hardness, but not size.

i just figured it would increase the effect by 20% and the effect of genesis as I recall it, is its size? i also wasnt entirely trying to go by RAW. I think its a cool concept. a realer than real demiplane that people who disbelieve the illusion know the demiplane is actually bigger than it appears.

[Jack_Simth]

Permanent Image bridge:
No, it can't support you, even if it fools you.
Falling through it counts as proof, so no save needed at that point.
Touching it where the ground underneath prevents you from going through (e.g., right at the start, before the ledge itself) should be worth an interaction save, though. As should taking a moment to check it with Kn(architecture and engineering) if you want to see if it will support you.

[KillianHawkeye]

The thing that I never really understood is the range between interacting with something to get a save at all and getting proof that an illusion isn't real to automatically pass your save.

Like, it's such a small window with most of the x image line of spells, isn't it? How much "interaction" can you actually do without accidentally touching something that's not really there? And then if you do, how does it not disprove the illusion right away? These aren't mind-affecting illusions, mind you, so it's not like they're fooling your subconscious or something.

[Crake]

The thing that I never really understood is the range between interacting with something to get a save at all and getting proof that an illusion isn't real to automatically pass your save.

Like, it's such a small window with most of the x image line of spells, isn't it? How much "interaction" can you actually do without accidentally touching something that's not really there? And then if you do, how does it not disprove the illusion right away? These aren't mind-affecting illusions, mind you, so it's not like they're fooling your subconscious or something.

I can't remember if this was mentioned somewhere in the rules, but I'm fairly sure interaction is as simple as scrutinizing, or having your attention drawn to the illusion in some way. It doesn't have to be physical interaction, merely that your focus is drawn to the illusion in some way.

[Particle_Man]

I usually make interaction a standard action so that PCs need to think about it rather than spamming the “I disbelieve the illusion” button every encounter for free.

[ThanatosZero]

The moment something becomes more than 100% real, is the moment where the real world shows it's true face. Congratulations! You and your world was a illusion all along (except your consciousness I think).

Most interrestingly in the Planescape setting, belief can and will either make things existent or non-existent.

And funny trivia, the alternative word for spells "dweomer (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dweomer#Middle_English)" originally comes from the words dwimor (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dwimor#Old_English), dwemrą (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/dwemr%C4%85) and dʰewh₂- (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0ewh%E2%82%82-), from which 2 of 3 mean illusion.