The real High Level Adventure was the Friends we made along the way

[PhoenixPhyre]

The idea that teleport, fly, planeshift, etc are necessary abilities that serve as "bars" or "gates" for high-level play comes up a lot. But the reasoning has always struck me as quite sketchy, for several reasons.

1. If what those give you is access to new environments to fight in, then they're a side note. Because you can have those new environments from level 1. And that high-level play is identical to low level play--find threat that can be dealt with at the personal-scale, get to threat, kill threat, repeat. You're still limited to the personal-scale of force projection. Nothing you do has any lasting effect unless you're right there watching it.
2. Additionally, all of those spells are sharply limited. Fly? Concentration and single target, so you're not taking the whole party. And short duration, so it's not getting you very far strategically. Teleport? Really sucks for going anywhere that you've not spent significant time at. And no, scry doesn't help much here because of its limitations. So teleport is great for getting back home, but kinda sucks for enabling new adventures. Planeshift? Your landing location isn't guaranteed. You get "somewhere in the vicinity" at best. And you need a tuning fork, which is fully and 100% DM fiat to get.

You can give a party access to those abilities from level 1 and nothing really changes much. As such, they're orthogonal to high-level vs low-level play.

I had an experimental, 2-person, level 5 party consisting of a wizard and a rogue. For various reasons, the wizard had access to
a) every magic item
b) the ability to cast gate (transport function only) at will

How did this change things? Not really much at all. Sure, they got to play tourist a lot (which was what the wizard's player wanted, so all good), but really they had no lasting effect on the setting.


Instead, I'd posit (based on my own experience now running a living world with 14 groups at all levels) that the real difference between high level play and low level play is that high level play has the ability to change the world in ways that low level play cannot. And not because the PCs personal capabilities have changed all that much (although that's an enabler and certainly useful), but because of the relationships (friend and foe) and reputation they've built along the way.

High level parties, by virtue of the fact that they've been adventuring for a while and come up against lots of people in various places, will have a reputation. Will have made friends and foes. Even people they've never met will know about them[1] and may either be trying to court their favor or deciding to oppose their efforts. The gods and powers will know them as allies, enemies, or possibly just complicating factors to keep an eye on. When they move, their movements are noted by forces near and far.

A high level, personal-power only (ie without access to any relationships) party can go toe to toe with demon princes, defeat ancient dragons, and overthrow governments. But will that matter? New demon princes will arise, other great threats will take the place of the dragons, and those nations aren't going to be loyal to the party--they won't be able to rule anywhere they aren't able to personally project force. So they'll forever be running around putting out fires and never able to actually make significant changes. At least without heavy simulacrum (or similar) shenanigans, which very few DMs are willing to allow.

A low level party doesn't have the personal power or the built-up reputation/relationships to do any of this. At least by default.

A high level party with relationships and reputation, on the other hand, can do a lot more. They have both the personal power to make decisions and the ability to project power and have influence beyond where they are, and that influence can make lasting changes for good or for ill across the setting. Their presence on a battlefield (or even the threat of their presence) can stop or alter the course of wars. Not because they themselves can kill armies (although they might be able to), but because of the weight they can bring to bear on the leaders (and even the rank and file).



My current party just hit level 17. They punch well above their weight (in part due to some really lucky treasure rolls giving them major legendary items at about level 9). But the real reason they have an effect on the world is that
* they ran a really rocking concert, which got the (favorable) attention of the queen of one nation.
* they stopped an assassination attempt on the queen mother (preventing a civil war) in another country and one of their former members is the personal guard to the current queen's children
* They own a fleet of ships
* The Eldest dragon of the setting, he whose hoard is dragonkind itself, as well as a bunch of other ancient dragons, owes them a debt
* They're personal friends with several other dragons
* They've made enemies of another, heavily influential dragon, as well as several ascendant-class individuals
* They're known across the planes, mainly because the bard made a record deal with a music-producer devil.
* They've made allies of a group of shadow-elf ninja chicks
* They're the only known Legendary-class adventuring party currently active, and so all the adventurer-watchers know who they are. Which means all the heads of state across a continent (and some beyond that) know their names, faces, and get intelligence on them.

They can project power well beyond their own noses. They have pull and influence beyond their personal power. This means that they can make decisions that have weight at the world-level and beyond, because their decisions have the chance to ripple outward in others' lives. A party of the same personal power that didn't have those reputations and relationships couldn't make decisions of that weight. And that, I'd posit, is the real difference between high and low level.


You can run a 1-20 where the party stays a fantasy SWAT team the whole time, even though each of the party members is fully anime'd out and can cut holes in reality.

You can run a game where the party starts with some measure of relationships and pull, making even their low-level efforts have weight above their level.

But the natural course is that a party accumulates reputation, relationships, and pull as it grows more powerful, so that the scope of their decisions changes as they level. Going from the neighborhood/village level (T1) to the national/province (depending on size, T2) scope, to the international scope (T3), to the world/planar scope (T4). And they can do this even if none of them have the ability to teleport, planeshift, or cast those big fancy spells.

[strangebloke]

I'd pretty much agree, though in principle I'd argue a lot of high level magic does end up being "world shaping" as you call it. It's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence in campaign downtime because of normal guy-at-the-gym assumptions about martials and also because of things like fabricate.

[Unoriginal]

I'd pretty much agree, though in principle I'd argue a lot of high level magic does end up being "world shaping" as you call it.

Which spells are you arguing to be "world shaping"?



It's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence in campaign downtime because of normal guy-at-the-gym assumptions about martials

That sentence means "it's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence because the DM has decided the wizard should gain more power and influence than martials".

And if the DM has decided to blatantly favor the wizard like that, it's not a game problem, it's a DM problem.



and also because of things like fabricate.

Having Fabricate won't impact the world significantly, unless the PCs with Fabricate are the first people in that world to think "uh, I could use Fabricate" and pull it off.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'd pretty much agree, though in principle I'd argue a lot of high level magic does end up being "world shaping" as you call it. It's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence in campaign downtime because of normal guy-at-the-gym assumptions about martials and also because of things like fabricate.

Downtime doesn't work that way, unless you specifically bend the rules to allow it. And if you do that, you darn well better do the same for martials. In my campaigns, I'd say the biggest single source of "influence" gained during downtime was from the bard putting on concerts...and that was only minimally-magically-aided (illusions). The sorcerer has gained influence...mainly by throwing money around and intimidating his family members. The paladin has influence because he (re)established a temple and the people there preach him as a hero. The warlock has gained quiet influence with an organization of sages and actually will be the focus of the last arc, but that's due to backstory and choices made during play. He's relatively quiet during downtime (which is in character).

I've never seen those spells to actually have significant effects. Because if the party's using them, then they're not the first to do so. So they're entering competitive commercial waters as dabblers. That's not a good way to gain influence.

[Unoriginal]

I've never seen those spells to actually have significant effects. Because if the party's using them, then they're not the first to do so. So they're entering competitive commercial waters as dabblers. That's not a good way to gain influence.

Yeah, high-level PCs would likely get more power, money and influence just from finding one of those businesses and using their reputation and abilities to promote said business.

Rather than try to compete with them starting from scratch.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yeah, high-level PCs would likely get more power, money and influence just from finding one of those businesses and using their reputation and abilities to promote said business.

Rather than try to compete with them starting from scratch.

I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.

Exactly.

[Xetheral]

I fully agree with the OP. I think awareness of these points are what enable successful high-level play and make it fun for the players and the DM. Kudos to you, PhoenixPhyre, for a well-written and important post!

[strangebloke]

That sentence literally means "it's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence because the DM has decided the wizard should gain more power and influence than martials"

Yes, that's my point. I'm not saying its a good thing, I'm saying its a basic assumption a lot of people have. Normal Martial Things are an assumed part of the setting, and it'd be really weird to suggest that a given city didn't already have a few pretty capable commanders and soldiers, but it wouldn't be weird in most settings to assume there aren't that many specialized wizards or artificers. And while there might be nobody in the city whose a match for steve the fighter 1 on 1, its generally assumed that the local army can do most of the things he can do via sheer numbers, whereas a lesser wizard won't be assumed to be able to do the same things bob the wizard can because of how vancian casting works.

Even if you're in a setting with lots of high level spellcasters and the PCs never ever get to levels where they outstrip most every nameless NPC in the region (which IMO they should be able to do eventually) the truth is that no setting assumes that NPCs will abuse their spellcasting. Should our PC who's trying to abuse fabricate be doing something completely new and creative in setting? Well no. But factually almost all equipment stores are run by surly blacksmiths who make their own weapons. Almost all jewelry stores are run by jewelers. The price of difficult-to-craft goods reflects the difficulty of crafting them and almost no setting assumes that the prices of say plate armor drops massively as soon as you get to the big city.

The next thing a DM will try is to put some all powerful armorer's guild in the path of the PC, to come down on them for using fabricate to tank the prices of plate armor. This just turns their attempt to break the game into a fun sidequest.

Its a cursed problem with regard to the verisimilitude of the setting and campaign, and every attempt to justify why this sort of thing doesn't work fails. The only solution is to agree ahead of time that such things won't be done at your shared table, or to go through and ban all such spells outright.

[Unoriginal]

I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store on the Citadel.

Exactly.

An high-level PC wanting to make money by using Fabricate is like if a superstar basketball player trying to make a nation-wide impact on the clothes-making business by having a factory built from scratch with their sport-earned money and trying to compete with the already established big names in the clothes-making business.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes, that's my point. I'm not saying its a good thing, I'm saying its a basic assumption a lot of people have. Normal Martial Things are an assumed part of the setting, and it'd be really weird to suggest that a given city didn't already have a few pretty capable commanders and soldiers, but it wouldn't be weird in most settings to assume there aren't that many specialized wizards or artificers. And while there might be nobody in the city whose a match for steve the fighter 1 on 1, its generally assumed that the local army can do most of the things he can do via sheer numbers, whereas a lesser wizard won't be assumed to be able to do the same things bob the wizard can because of how vancian casting works.

Even if you're in a setting with lots of high level spellcasters and the PCs never ever get to levels where they outstrip most every nameless NPC in the region (which IMO they should be able to do eventually) the truth is that no setting assumes that NPCs will abuse their spellcasting. Should our PC who's trying to abuse fabricate be doing something completely new and creative in setting? Well no. But factually almost all equipment stores are run by surly blacksmiths who make their own weapons. Almost all jewelry stores are run by jewelers. The price of difficult-to-craft goods reflects the difficulty of crafting them and almost no setting assumes that the prices of say plate armor drops massively as soon as you get to the big city.

The next thing a DM will try is to put some all powerful armorer's guild in the path of the PC, to come down on them for using fabricate to tank the prices of plate armor. This just turns their attempt to break the game into a fun sidequest.

Its a cursed problem with regard to the verisimilitude of the setting and campaign, and every attempt to justify why this sort of thing doesn't work fails. The only solution is to agree ahead of time that such things won't be done at your shared table, or to go through and ban all such spells outright.

Scale is a thing. Even with fabricate and spending all your time on it, you're still one person. And that puts severe crimps on your ability to influence things. I'd say that the settings assume that "abusive spellcasting" is locked out by other means--strong guilds who lean on anyone who tries, kingdom level laws that put severe taxes on that sort of things, difficulty getting raw materials (all the contracts for bulk quantities are already spoken for, etc).

Things do what they say. To assume that a PC can manipulate the economy and gain influence by fabricate is to say that no one ever thought of that before. Which is pants-on-head. The setting assumes (by its very stability) that all such things are already "priced in". The rules have instructions for running a business, and at best you break even. And that's determinative--you can't get around it by claiming some special exemption "because magic". That's what I mean by "bending the rules to allow it"--you have to make a special homebrew exception for this to even have any effect, because its not allowed by the core rules that cover the matter.

Plus, you're doing this during downtime. So as soon as you step away to adventure, your competitors come in and eat your lunch. Extort your suppliers, grab your customers, etc. And no one wants to deal with a dilettante who is only there sometimes.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think Dungeon of the Mad Mage illustrates the point you're making. High level adventure, all the ability to world hop is useless beyond downtime outside of the scheduled adventure path.

But, just because we've spent the entire adventure entirely within Waterdeep doesn't mean we haven't developed a reputation well across the land. Dragon Heist already put our names into the minds of several big people (some big shot in Neverwinter really dislikes us) we're part of only a handful of people who have seen and returned from the deepest parts of Undermountain and we've developed relationships with at least 3 off the most powerful people in the city in the process.

Sure, the default adventure doesn't use those connections too much beyond having them perform expensive spellcasting services for you, but with a DM willing to expand the scope of the adventure a bit you can do some pretty impactful things. If all goes to plan we'll have ousted a noble family of devil worshippers, possibly returned a long thought lost noble family to Waterdeep, established a foothold for the city in the upper levels of Undermountain to combat crime from Skullport and established ourselves as prime mercenaries for hire from our outstanding tavern/adventurers guild home.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, that's my point. I'm not saying its a good thing, I'm saying its a basic assumption a lot of people have.

I'm saying it is an incorrect assumption.



Normal Martial Things are an assumed part of the setting, and it'd be really weird to suggest that a given city didn't already have a few pretty capable commanders and soldiers, but it wouldn't be weird in most settings to assume there aren't that many specialized wizards or artificers.

Those assumptions do not match any of the settings I am aware of, in any D&D edition I'm aware of.



And while there might be nobody in the city whose a match for steve the fighter 1 on 1, its generally assumed that the local army can do most of the things he can do via sheer numbers, whereas a lesser wizard won't be assumed to be able to do the same things bob the wizard can because of how vancian casting works.

Two things:

1) The local magic users in a whole city can certainly match what Bob the Wizard can do via sheer numbers, too, even if 1 on 1 they are just as outmatched the local fighting forces' members are when facing Steve.

2) As PhoenixPhyre said in the OP, when you are an high level PC your influence on the world is not just based on individual capacities. Individual capacities is how you got here, but being able of casting a lvl 9 spell is not going to impact the world as much as having 1000 persons obey you.




Even if you're in a setting with lots of high level spellcasters and the PCs never ever get to levels where they outstrip most every nameless NPC in the region (which IMO they should be able to do eventually) the truth is that no setting assumes that NPCs will abuse their spellcasting.

Two things here:

1) there has been whole adventure modules written about NPC attempting to abuse their spellcasting. They usually get murdered by a tiny group of dedicated people.

2) If you meant "abuse their spellcasting" as in "abuse the rules of the game to get perks, even if they're not in the spirit of the game"... why would any DM allow anyone to abuse the rules?



Should our PC who's trying to abuse fabricate be doing something completely new and creative in setting? Well no. But factually almost all equipment stores are run by surly blacksmiths who make their own weapons. Almost all jewelry stores are run by jewelers. The price of difficult-to-craft goods reflects the difficulty of crafting them and almost no setting assumes that the prices of say plate armor drops massively as soon as you get to the big city.

Almost as if casters find it more worthwhile to do other things with their powers.




The next thing a DM will try is to put some all powerful armorer's guild in the path of the PC, to come down on them for using fabricate to tank the prices of plate armor. This just turns their attempt to break the game into a fun sidequest.

Or into the player demanding to know why the DM isn't allowing them to do their Downtime thing to break the setting like they wanted, because their character is the first caster to think about doing that in the whole history of the world



Its a cursed problem with regard to the verisimilitude of the setting and campaign, and every attempt to justify why this sort of thing doesn't work fails. The only solution is to agree ahead of time that such things won't be done at your shared table, or to go through and ban all such spells outright.

Or just recognize that high-level PCs have better use of their time than Fabricating things as a living.

Do you really think that a lvl 17 wizard wants to be crafting 7 plate armors a day?



Plus, you're doing this during downtime. So as soon as you step away to adventure, your competitors come in and eat your lunch. Extort your suppliers, grab your customers, etc. And no one wants to deal with a dilettante who is only there sometimes.

This reminds me of the ending of the video game Full Throttle (10:03 on this video):


https://youtu.be/KIM-fe00Ulc

[strangebloke]

Scale is a thing. Even with fabricate and spending all your time on it, you're still one person. And that puts severe crimps on your ability to influence things. I'd say that the settings assume that "abusive spellcasting" is locked out by other means--strong guilds who lean on anyone who tries, kingdom level laws that put severe taxes on that sort of things, difficulty getting raw materials (all the contracts for bulk quantities are already spoken for, etc).

Ah yes, the all powerful super guild who fixes all the prices in the setting such that a village armorer making scale in his private smithy is competitive with a wizard who can effectively replicate thousands of man hours of labor in seconds.(1) The all powerful super guild, who functionally didn't exist until the PC tried to abuse the rules. The all powerful super guild who the PCs are never intended to fight or overcome no matter how powerful they get because they're blatantly a tool of the DM. :smallsigh:

To be clear, I'm not arguing that a player should be allowed to abuse magic in this way. I'm just saying that everything you're describing is not part of the default rules in any respect. Indeed, the rules themselves have pretty consistently portrayed spellcasting as special when compared to other sorts of things you can hire someone for. Most mundane NPCs can be hired for (depending on where you look) a few gp a day or 30-100 gp a month, but a single 1st level ritual spell is given a cost of 10-50 gp and a higher level spell (3rd level or more) is presented as a possible reward for completing a sidequest.

Magic is treated as special by 5e setting assumptions and though you can alter how specific spells work to avoid abuse or create powerful NPC organizations that prevent a thing from being done, the truth is that the system really doesn't explain how to handle this sort of thing well, and its understandable that DMs let spellcasters get away with murder on the setting level.

(1) We have prices for steel ingots and hiring a leatherworker. Even if you ban stuff like making 'sprues' of hundreds of sets of plate mail, fabricate does allow for extremely cheap plate armor production.

[Unoriginal]

Ah yes, the all powerful super guild who fixes all the prices in the setting such that a village armorer making scale in his private smithy is competitive with a wizard who can effectively replicate thousands of man hours of labor in seconds.(1) The all powerful super guild, who functionally didn't exist until the PC tried to abuse the rules. The all powerful super guild who the PCs are never intended to fight or overcome no matter how powerful they get because they're blatantly a tool of the DM. :smallsigh:

To be clear, I'm not arguing that a player should be allowed to abuse magic in this way. I'm just saying that everything you're describing is not part of the default rules in any respect. Indeed, the rules themselves have pretty consistently portrayed spellcasting as special when compared to other sorts of things you can hire someone for. Most mundane NPCs can be hired for (depending on where you look) a few gp a day or 30-100 gp a month, but a single 1st level ritual spell is given a cost of 10-50 gp and a higher level spell (3rd level or more) is presented as a possible reward for completing a sidequest.

If you apply the same logic, it means that if your lvl 15 caster decides to spend their downtime selling their spellcasting service, they will be one of those "will exchange a 2nd or lower spell slot for 10-50 gp, or use 3rd+ spell slots are reward for people who do sidequests for them and their allies" casters.

Since it's what the rules portray spellcasters-for-hire as.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ah yes, the all powerful super guild who fixes all the prices in the setting such that a village armorer making scale in his private smithy is competitive with a wizard who can effectively replicate thousands of man hours of labor in seconds.(1) The all powerful super guild, who functionally didn't exist until the PC tried to abuse the rules. The all powerful super guild who the PCs are never intended to fight or overcome no matter how powerful they get because they're blatantly a tool of the DM. :smallsigh:

To be clear, I'm not arguing that a player should be allowed to abuse magic in this way. I'm just saying that everything you're describing is not part of the default rules in any respect. Indeed, the rules themselves have pretty consistently portrayed spellcasting as special when compared to other sorts of things you can hire someone for. Most mundane NPCs can be hired for (depending on where you look) a few gp a day or 30-100 gp a month, but a single 1st level ritual spell is given a cost of 10-50 gp and a higher level spell (3rd level or more) is presented as a possible reward for completing a sidequest.

Magic is treated as special by 5e setting assumptions and though you can alter how specific spells work to avoid abuse or create powerful NPC organizations that prevent a thing from being done, the truth is that the system really doesn't explain how to handle this sort of thing well, and its understandable that DMs let spellcasters get away with murder on the setting level.

(1) We have prices for steel ingots and hiring a leatherworker. Even if you ban stuff like making 'sprues' of hundreds of sets of plate mail, fabricate does allow for extremely cheap plate armor production.

The rules for running a business are in the DMG. And they don't have exceptions for magic. So you can't do this without homebrew. Doesn't matter how or what you do, you have to change the rules to allow the "mage gets rich quick" schemes. That's because they already take all of this into account.

D&D is not a game about merchants and crafting (at its core), so it abstracts all of that away and basically says "PCs can't have meaningful effects this way". Downtime is not supposed to have meaningful effects on power level for anyone. Otherwise it'd be part of the main adventure, by construction. So letting wizards (and only wizards) play these games is a direct violation of the spirit and intent of the game, not only the letter of the law.

By the way--fabricate only works to create a single object out of a single form of material. So you can create a single component of a piece of armor with a single cast[1]. That's it. Unless you're homebrewing to allow wizards (and only wizards) to bypass the rules. Spells do what they say. So you're looking at dozens of casts to get a single suit of armor. By the hard wording of the spell.

Also, you need a distributor and a storefront. Guess what--that eats all your profit and more unless you're willing to spend all your time doing that. Or hire people to do that. That's what the business rules abstract away--the actual cost of production is only a tiny fraction of the actual cost to create any kind of mercantile business.

And more fundamentally, if you can do it, so can other people. And they were there first. You're assuming that this obvious, glaring loophole in settings was first discovered by the PC in question, and that everything will go their way. That requires more DM fiat than anything else, and creates inherently broken settings. Don't use inherently broken settings. They're broken already.

[1] unless you're willing to handwave the whole
a) armor has straps and buckles, which are separate objects
b) each of the different pieces is a separate object, because the person has to get into it
c) there isn't really a demand for plate armor, especially since (presumed) a lot of the cost is having it individually fit to the consumer. You can't make one-size fits all plate. It just isn't a thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd pretty much agree, though in principle I'd argue a lot of high level magic does end up being "world shaping" as you call it. It's much easier for a wizard to justify gaining a lot of power and influence in campaign downtime because of normal guy-at-the-gym assumptions about martials and also because of things like fabricate. We work as a team. My martial (paladin) ally knows that I've got his back if he needs some magical aid, like the time I helped him make a scroll of death ward during down time. (Without my Arcana proficiency/expertise, he can't even make the scroll. But The Friends We Made Along The Way is the whole point here! We are a team. (We use the Xanathar's rules on crafting, and stuff like scrolls requires Arcana proficiency). (I am a player in that campaign. There is always more stuff we want to do than there is time to do it...which is another sign of good DMing IMO and IME).

I fully agree with the OP. I think awareness of these points are what enable successful high-level play and make it fun for the players and the DM. Kudos to you, PhoenixPhyre, for a well-written and important post! As player in that campaign, I can say that the latitude we have, and the choices we are still making, is very much within the realm my favorite DMing mode, which is:
'Give 'em enough rope; they'll either hang themselves or fashion a macrame hammock with it!'
I am also kicking myself for not bringing my simulacrum (level 14 version of my bard, missing the 7th level spell slot) along on this latest adventure since at long last I am in a situation that I need her. OH well, she may outlive me. Such are choices made! :smallbiggrin:

[strangebloke]

If you apply the same logic, it means that if your lvl 15 caster decides to spend their downtime selling their spellcasting service, they will be one of those "will exchange a 2nd or lower spell slot for 10-50 gp, or use 3rd+ spell slots are reward for people who do sidequests for them and their allies" casters.

Since it's what the rules portray spellcasters-for-hire as.
It's a ritual spell, so arguably you should be able to sell such services from 3rd level. Not according to downtime rules, but still, you should, right?


The rules for running a business are in the DMG. And they don't have exceptions for magic. So you can't do this without homebrew. Doesn't matter how or what you do, you have to change the rules to allow the "mage gets rich quick" schemes. That's because they already take all of this into account.

D&D is not a game about merchants and crafting (at its core), so it abstracts all of that away and basically says "PCs can't have meaningful effects this way". Downtime is not supposed to have meaningful effects on power level for anyone. Otherwise it'd be part of the main adventure, by construction. So letting wizards (and only wizards) play these games is a direct violation of the spirit and intent of the game, not only the letter of the law.
And what I'm saying is that there's a discrepancy between the assumption that all PCs are created equal and how magic is generally treated in setting. The only way to avert this is by drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and saying "other parts of your character sheet don't matter because we're in downtime."

It doesn't make sense that a dwarf working by himself in the forge without fabricate and mending can run as profitable an armor-forging business as a dwarf working by himself in a forge with fabricate and mending. It just doesn't.

By the way--fabricate only works to create a single object out of a single form of material. So you can create a single component of a piece of armor with a single cast[1]. That's it. Unless you're homebrewing to allow wizards (and only wizards) to bypass the rules. Spells do what they say. So you're looking at dozens of casts to get a single suit of armor. By the hard wording of the spell.

RAW is RAI but I don't think that under any other circumstance a "suit of armor" would be considered multiple objects, even if the straps are missing. I don't think a rust monster for example has to take multiple turns to eat a suit of plate piece by piece.

And even if you do go with a really strict reading of "object" here, that just leads to sprues which... look, just tell the player not to, okay?

[Dr.Samurai]

Meanwhile, the wizard gets his raw ore from the iron mine the fighter took over with his army of soldiers that now stands guard and defends the lucrative mine from orcs and goblins and other raiders.

[Unoriginal]

It's a ritual spell, so you can do this as a downtime activity from like 3rd level.

If you want to be paid in sidequests, sure.



And what I'm saying is that there's a discrepancy between the assumption that all PCs are created equal and how magic is generally treated in setting. The only way to avert this is by drawing an arbitrary line in the sand and saying "other parts of your character sheet don't matter because we're in downtime."

You mean, like how a Barbarian's Rage doesn't matter when they're doing Pit Fighting during downtime?



RAW is RAI but I don't think that under any other circumstance a "suit of armor" would be considered multiple objects, even if the straps are missing.

You can't build a chariot out of both wood and steel using Fabricate. The spell is specific that it can only do one matter.

As per the PHB, plate armor "consists of shaped, interlocking metal plates to cover the entire body. A suit of plate includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and thick layers of padding underneath the armor. Buckles and straps distribute the weight over the body."

So the leather and the padding would need to be Fabricated separately from the metal parts.



I don't think a rust monster for example has to take multiple turns to eat a suit of plate piece by piece.

Not a specific evidence one way or another, but a Rust Monster would need to spend 8 turns to eat a plate armor.



Antennae:

If the object touched is either metal armor or a metal shield being worn or carried, it takes a permanent and cumulative −1 penalty to the AC it offers. Armor reduced to an AC of 10 or a shield that drops to a +0 bonus is destroyed.

[strangebloke]

If you want to be paid in sidequests, sure.

I feel like 35 gp for ten minutes of work a few times a week is the more relevant point.

But my point wasn't that a player should be allowed to do this as a downtime activity, my point is that elsewhere in the rules, magical services are treated as being special and expensive in a way nonmagical services aren't.


You mean, like how a Barbarian's Rage doesn't matter when they're doing Pit Fighting during downtime?

You wouldn't let them rage for the strength component of the activity?


You can't build a chariot out of both wood and steel using Fabricate. The spell is specific that it can only do one matter.

As per the PHB, plate armor "consists of shaped, interlocking metal plates to cover the entire body. A suit of plate includes gauntlets, heavy leather boots, a visored helmet, and thick layers of padding underneath the armor. Buckles and straps distribute the weight over the body."

So the leather and the padding would need to be Fabricated separately from the metal parts.

Sure, I mentioned you probably need to hire a leatherworker. But there's no real way to argue that a guy who can fabricate the metal components 3 suits of armor (or more) a day with an hour of prep and somehow end up having it not matter.


Not a specific evidence one way or another, but a Rust Monster would need to spend 8 turns to eat a plate armor.

Its still an object rather than multiple objects.

[PhoenixPhyre]

It sounds like "It doesn't make sense that magic can't break the rules!!!" special pleading. The downtime rules apply to everyone, like it or not. You can't run a business other than by the running a business downtime rules without homebrew. Full stop. Doesn't matter if you're magic or mundane. Them's the rules. To say otherwise is to violate the abstraction around downtime. Just like you can't go more precise in time than 6 seconds or decide exactly how many times the sword was swung during one Attack action or exactly how the enemy was wounded based on HP loss. Like with all abstractions, trying to peer beneath the covers inevitably causes problems. And those problems aren't the abstraction's fault. You've tried to apply it outside its realm of applicability. Any breakage is on you.

And I'll say that this "magic is special" special pleading is a primary cause of all the martial/caster divide. Along with "non-magic is stupid and weak (weaker than real life, even) and has to be held to the most cramped interpretation of the rules". Stop doing those and the problem, for the most part, goes away without further efforts. And neither of those is rule--both of those are bad attitudes, mostly from previous editions or attempts at "realism".

Additionally, the point of this all is that reputation and relationships belong, for the most part, with the party and much less the individual within the party. So even if (arguendo) the wizard is accumulating prestige by his crafting, that helps the party out.

This isn't a game about individuals. The basic unit of D&D is the party; individuals without a party aren't valid units-of-play (unless the party is size 1). So "look at me, I'm special because I can break things by exploiting the abstraction levels" goes against the spirit of the game entirely.

[strangebloke]

And I'll say that this "magic is special" special pleading is a primary cause of all the martial/caster divide. Along with "non-magic is stupid and weak (weaker than real life, even) and has to be held to the most cramped interpretation of the rules". Stop doing those and the problem, for the most part, goes away without further efforts. And neither of those is rule--both of those are bad attitudes, mostly from previous editions or attempts at "realism".

And what I'm saying is that outside of a few specific example like the XGTE downtime rules, the "magic is special" pleading is built into the rules. I'm disagreeing specifically with point (2). Magic is more limited than in previous editions but its still allowed to do way more than anything you can do with generic abilities. At least, you can generally do things a lot faster with magic.

As I've outlined elsewhere, I don't think spells like Teleport or Raise Dead are a problem. I think its more stuff like 'find familiar' and Detect Thoughts and Circle of Truth and fabricate. In a murder mystery party the inquisitive rogue can run around like sherlock, or the cleric can just say "okay, everyone sit in this circle and fess up you're a suspect." A wizard-blacksmith can make armor way more quickly and cheaply than a fighter-blacksmith.

This is how the system has been built, and though you can and should address such issues, that doesn't mean the system doesn't have a problem here.

[Unoriginal]

You wouldn't let them rage for the strength component of the activity?

You would let other classes use ability-check-boosting features for that?



But my point wasn't that a player should be allowed to do this as a downtime activity, my point is that elsewhere in the rules, magical services are treated as being special and expensive in a way nonmagical services aren't.



It doesn't make sense that a dwarf working by himself in the forge without fabricate and mending can run as profitable an armor-forging business as a dwarf working by himself in a forge with fabricate and mending. It just doesn't.



Sure, I mentioned you probably need to hire a leatherworker. But there's no real way to argue that a guy who can fabricate the metal components 3 suits of armor (or more) a day with an hour of prep and somehow end up having it not matter.

By the rules, it costs 1 week and 25gp for a lone goldsmith to craft a gold ingot, while it costs 10 minutes and 50gp for a lone wizard with Fabricate to do the same.

If you hired either to do the work, it would cost you 14 gp to hire the goldsmith and an unspecified sidequest for the wizard.

BUT if a PC did the ingot-crafting themselves, it would still cost them 1 week and 25gp of component, but they could also maintain a modest lifestyle for free, so in other word they'd gain 1gp per day.

So in other words, you can get a 50gp worth gold ingot:

-For 18gp (25 -7gp) + a week of waiting, if you craft it yourself.

-For 39gp + a week of waiting, with the goldsmith.

-For 50gp + a favor + 10 mins of waiting, with the wizard.


https://c.tenor.com/n8hbojyLfYoAAAAC/it-does-not-make-sense-johnnie-cochran.gif

[strangebloke]

You would let other classes use ability-check-boosting features for that?


It's an ability check? Yes? Like, okay, you cast guidance once and it applies to a week-long effort and that's naff but its also an ability you can use at-will so it makes sense you'd be able to use it many times throughout downtime, so it still works. Similarly Rage is something you can do a few times per day and would be really useful for a pit fighter to have, much like expertise would be a useful ability for a pitfighter.

[Unoriginal]

It's an ability check? Yes? Like, okay, you cast guidance once and it applies to a week-long effort and that's naff but its also an ability you can use at-will so it makes sense you'd be able to use it many times throughout downtime, so it still works. Similarly Rage is something you can do a few times per day and would be really useful for a pit fighter to have, much like expertise would be a useful ability for a pitfighter.

What about the Monk's Patient Defense or the Bladesinger's Bladesong?



By the rules, it costs 1 week and 25gp for a lone goldsmith to craft a gold ingot, while it costs 10 minutes and 50gp for a lone wizard with Fabricate to do the same.

If you hired either to do the work, it would cost you 14 gp to hire the goldsmith and an unspecified sidequest for the wizard.

BUT if a PC did the ingot-crafting themselves, it would still cost them 1 week and 25gp of component, but they could also maintain a modest lifestyle for free, so in other word they'd gain 1gp per day.

So in other words, you can get a 50gp worth gold ingot:

-For 18gp (25 -7gp) + a week of waiting, if you craft it yourself.

-For 39gp + a week of waiting, with the goldsmith.

-For 50gp + a favor + 10 mins of waiting, with the wizard.
.

In fact, it means that a PC crafting gold ingots for one year while living a modest lifestyle would be able to make 1300gp (with a total investment of 1300gp in raw material), while a PC using Fabricate to craft gold ingots while living a modest lifestyle wouldn't make any money, ever, and would be 365gp poorer by the end of the year.

Unless the wizard found enough desperate people needing gold ingots to be Fabricated quickly to make it worthwhile.

[strangebloke]

What about the Monk's Patient Defense or the Bladesinger's Bladesong?


Yeah fair enough, it doesn't completely make sense. But that is sort of the operative problem with the skill system in general. Nobody would say expertise or jack of all trades wouldn't count for example.


In fact, it means that a PC crafting gold ingots for one year while living a modest lifestyle would be able to make 1300gp (with a total investment of 1300gp in raw material), while a PC using Fabricate to craft gold ingots while living a modest lifestyle wouldn't make any money, ever, and would be 365gp poorer by the end of the year.

Only if you assume that all the favors being accrued are literally worthless.

[Unoriginal]

Only if you assume that all the favors being accrued are literally worthless.

I corrected that afterward, but the point was that the wizard wouldn't earn a living wage doing that during downtime.

And if it's profitable or not would depend on how many people within the year would think it's worthwhile to make ingots quickly.


Yeah fair enough, it doesn't completely make sense. But that is sort of the operative problem with the skill system in general. Nobody would say expertise or jack of all trades wouldn't count for example.

Well the point was that 5e does indeed tell the players that they can't use many of the abilities on their sheets the same way during downtime.

[KorvinStarmast]

You mean, like how a Barbarian's Rage doesn't matter when they're doing Pit Fighting during downtime? The bookies (at the abstraction level) and the fight promoters will ensure that after one fight, a more suitable opponent is found, like, say, a retired barbarian who works as a bouncer in a tavern nearby :smallbiggrin: Assuming that the townies are a buncha rubes is a trap many a PC has fallen into (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html). The roll for that pit fighting thing in Xanathar's is the RNG telling us if the PC was the rube, or was in on the deal when the fixed fight went down. :smallbiggrin:

I feel like 35 gp for ten minutes of work a few times a week is the more relevant point. But now comes the question of demand, and disposable income for magical services. That's something the game leaves for abstractions, and as soon as a PC begins the "at 8 hours a day and 35 GP for 10 minutes work, that's 48 times 35 - " to which the DM says "But today, you only had three customers." The abstract 'laborer' making 'a silver' or 'a gold' per day (depends on your choice of basic monetary unit) will find that '35 gp' for a spell something like a luxury - like a weekend in Vegas is a luxury for me.

You wouldn't let them rage for the strength component of the activity? The promoters and fixers will try to set up a match that people will actually bet on, I figure. :smallwink:

To say otherwise is to violate the abstraction around downtime. Which is the core point: downtime as an abstraction, fill in the details that make play fun at the table for the whole group. (Just add 'ale and debauchery' to taste)

Just like you can't go more precise in time than 6 seconds or decide exactly how many times the sword was swung during one Attack action or exactly how the enemy was wounded based on HP loss. Like with all abstractions, trying to peer beneath the covers inevitably causes problems. How much bat guano does the average evoker need to carry around, anyway? :smalleek:

And neither of those is rule--both of those are bad attitudes, mostly from previous editions or attempts at "realism". It appears to be a latent defect (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25236330&postcount=10).


The basic unit of D&D is the party; individuals without a party aren't valid units-of-play (unless the party is size 1). While this is true from a structural point, and has been brought forward from the earliest editions, there are quite a few 'styles' to D&D that go as far back as Rob Kuntz playing solo exploration of the original castle Greyhawk that are single character focused, particularly when PC portability between dungeons/campaigns is the norm. In the modern case, AL play seems to lend itself to the "I feel no connection to this party" as a play mode for those who can't find a regular group. (AL has a downtime structure to accommodate that, such that downtime becomes a form of game currency). (This, and the changes in AL for season 8, inform my having abandoned AL. Not sure if that will ever change, but the pandemic hardly helped that).

[PhoenixPhyre]

While this is true from a structural point, and has been brought forward from the earliest editions, there are quite a few 'styles' to D&D that go as far back as Rob Kuntz playing solo exploration of the original castle Greyhawk that are single character focused, particularly when PC portability between dungeons/campaigns is the norm. In the modern case, AL play seems to lend itself to the "I feel not connection to this party" as a play mode for those who can't find a regular group. (AL has a downtime structure to accommodate that, such that downtime becomes a form of game currency).

AL is, in my opinion, the tail that unfortunately wags the dog in many cases. People take AL, with its special-case rules for special scenarios not normally handled by the core system (ie cross-table play, rigid restrictions on DMs, completely open tables, public play), as somehow the "intended case". AL is the aberration in the room, and should be accepted as such. Cross-table play is not a core assumption of this edition--in fact it's rather the opposite. Even two DMs running the same module at the same place in the module are different worlds and there isn't the assumption that a character from one can drop in to the other. Outside AL, which has (as mentioned) reams of rules to try (and fail, mostly) to make that workable.

In that (aberrant) environment, yes. You end up with an atomized "party of one" and downtime as currency. But both of those are very far from the core assumptions of the system. I'll note that the creators of 5e believe that the main selling point of D&D 5e (as opposed to other fiction) is the nature as a team game. It's supposed to be about (according to them) a group of people working together to do things none of them could alone. Not a bunch of individuals pursuing their own separate goals who happen to be walking together temporarily, nor a protagonist and his sidekicks. A team of people.

[Unoriginal]

The bookies (at the abstraction level) and the fight promoters will ensure that after one fight, a more s uitable opponent is found, like, say, a retired barbarian who works as a bouncer in a tavern nearby :smallbiggrin:

Or a lot of drinks followed by a lot of people armed with sticks and half-bricks-in-socks, in the alley behind the arena.



Which is the core point: downtime as an abstraction, fill in the details that make play fun at the table for the whole group.

Indeed.

Also, while we've now debated the "Fabricate can let you earn more during downtime" idea, no one has defended the "high level spells can impact the world a lot" one

[KorvinStarmast]

I'll note that the creators of 5e believe that the main selling point of D&D 5e (as opposed to other fiction) is the nature as a team game. It's supposed to be about (according to them) a group of people working together to do things none of them could alone. Not a bunch of individuals pursuing their own separate goals who happen to be walking together temporarily, nor a protagonist and his sidekicks. A team of people. Yep, has been since we began in High School back before touch tone phones were the norm. It's my preferred approach. I am glad, though, that AL is there as an option for people who cannot find a regular campaign. (My first AL campaign, though, with an AL experienced DM was with a group that started with three, grew to five, and then become four before eventually RL slammed the door shut on it).

[strangebloke]

I corrected that afterward, but the point was that the wizard wouldn't earn a living wage doing that during downtime.

And if it's profitable or not would depend on how many people within the year would think it's worthwhile to make ingots quickly.
Unless he also gets to spend ten minutes casting identify for 50 GP occasionally. Or casting it on a whole stack of items (say a dusty collection someone inherited) for big money. For ten minutes of work its treated as far more expensive than a lot of skilled labor is.

Lots of classic DND settings do operate under a "magic is special/rare" paradigm, probably the best example being dragonlance.

Well the point was that 5e does indeed tell the players that they can't use many of the abilities on their sheets the same way during downtime.
Doesn't say that from what I can see. It's a reasonable way to run things, but it doesn't say that.

Or a lot of drinks followed by a lot of people armed with sticks and half-bricks-in-socks, in the alley behind the arena.
I think you're better off just leaning on the "your character sheet doesn't matter" ruling, this sort of thing would constitute a foil or an opposed party for downtime, something that's already covered separately and shouldn't factor into the check itself.


Also, while we've now debated the "Fabricate can let you earn more during downtime" idea, no one has defended the "high level spells can impact the world a lot" one

To be clear, I do agree with Phoenix's argument that DND is a team game and that special pleading and magic abuse exploits shouldn't be encouraged. I said as much in my first post. I just think that the system as designed allows more avenues for casters to make their special pleading, mostly because they have OOC tools that martials don't and also because in some settings magic is assumed to be more rare and 'special' than martial stuff. I don't actually think fabricate exploits should be allowed to break the economy, I'm saying that the special pleading we see at our tables isn't purely a result of legacy issues. I see these arguments presented by people who's first edition is 5e

[Dr.Samurai]

I agree with Strangebloke that the game has a bias toward casters. And I think that players that play casters, by virtue of the spells they have access to and the things that they do, are simply going to ask permission more times of the DM than players playing martial classes, and as such there will be more instances of the DM allowing them to do things than other players.

[Talakeal]

This thread is making me think that there is a lot of money to be made in a supplement about how the environment can affect the battle.

Because it seems like if you try and do a combat in a truly alien environment, you have to come up with a whole subsystem that is untested and will never be used again, and my players frequently want to have more "cinematic" fights which means a lot of mobility and utilizing terrain and objects in the environment.

[sethdmichaels]

I fully agree with the OP. I think awareness of these points are what enable successful high-level play and make it fun for the players and the DM. Kudos to you, PhoenixPhyre, for a well-written and important post!

i agree! something pretty fun in my current campaign is having already-powerful people in the world recognize our team as useful and a force to be reckoned with.

[Pex]

save the caravan -> save the village -> save the town -> save the VIP -> save the city -> save the nation -> save the world -> save existence

[PhoenixPhyre]

save the caravan -> save the village -> save the town -> save the VIP -> save the city -> save the nation -> save the world -> save existence

Or not even "save". Influence the village -> influence the town/region -> influence the VIP, etc. I prefer not to do "the world will end if you fail" quests--the world/village/etc will continue...but differently. And how you act will point it down any number of possible paths.

For example, my current party's T4 goal is to help one party member reforge a pact between the Death-god-equivalent and the shadow elves, thus preventing the shadow elves from either continuing their decline into extinction or choosing one of the other possible paths out (which would create other messes). They intervened earlier to prevent the demonic infection of most of the world's adult+ dragons. Etc. No world-ending threats, but their intervention pushed levers in certain directions.

Most of that's because I have a vested interest in keeping the world stable (it's a living world with multiple groups in it, all affecting the world permanently), but also I just don't see even T4 heroes as being on the "if it's not for us, the world will end" levels. Get messed up? Sure. Large-scale Bad Things can happen. But there are other powerful people out there, including the gods and other ascendants.

I see PCs as catalysts of change. Wherever they go, things change. Stacked houses of cards come tumbling down; sparks ignite (metaphorical and possibly real) forest fires. Small changes cause avalanches of cascading change. That's the role of the PC--not to shove everything around themselves, but to be there at the critical moments and make the choices at the intersections of IF that alter the course of the world. At low levels, they make choices that alter the course of villages and individuals. At high levels they make choices that alter the course of nations and races and cultures and even gods[1].

/digression

[1] I have a whole setting thing around how being worshipped gives power. Even for still-mortal beings. One of the party members already has a bit of a cult following, treating him as some kind of access point to the gods. And they just slew an ascended kraken (who was mortal but still on the ascendant scale).

[Segev]

In the game I'm playing in on Saturdays right now, my rogue/monk has far more of his ability to impact the setting come from the choices he's made in the setting than his personal class levels and power. Other PCs have greater wealth than he does for similar reasons: they made different choices and had different opportunities because of them. But he's still got a great deal of influence.

Very early on, he did a favor for a magical fey oni that helped her escape another magical fey, and she gave him a card that had "An Invitation to the Dream Lord's Banquet" on it. Further adventures that spilled out from other consequences of that set the party into and out of the feywild for various reasons, and he made some deals that have made him the best one in the party at dealing with the fey. He held onto that card for quite some time, right up until a super-powerful archfey hag was visiting the whole party in our dreams to basically try to strongarm us into her dark service. Having had prior knowledge that the Dream Lord was most upset that she'd found her way into his realm (again) at all, he called upon that invitation.

Playing "summon bigger fish" when the bigger fish is happy to be summoned because it let him clean up a problem was very satisfying.

All of which is to both share a fun story, and to reinforce the OP's point that one thing a highly-engaging game can have going for it is the way that your choices may not rely on your class features at all, once you start inserting your tentacles into the world. It will cost, and have risks, but it's an orthogonal advancement that can only be achieved through gameplay.

...if that hag ever escapes the Dream Lord's oubliette, my PC is likely to have a bad time.

[Waazraath]

Late to the party, but thnx for writing the OP, interesting read and I recognize a lot.

[Valmark]

I think it kinda depends on the DM and the story. It's not hard to remember a campaign where the likes of Teleport+Scrying was game-changing- but if we had been playing a game where time didn't matter then Teleport would've been less useful. Roughly similar is Plane Shift, although Scrying doesn't work with it.

Same for Fly or Water Breathing or whatever- the idea that those don't matter much seems naive or based around not needing it when you don't have it. That said, one can easily make a campaign where those don't matter- so it's entirely table dependant.

Speaking of relationships, I can think of quite a few npcs who might've died if we hadn't had means to fast travel. And one can't always count on the DM only proposing challenges they can face.