To be big, or not to be big?

[GreyBlack]

Hey guys!

So, I've been playing a Goliath Rune Knight that I have absolutely loved recently. We're currently level 8, and my character has been specializing in grappling. In particular, the party loves to joke about how I go big and the encounter becomes fairly trivial shortly afterwards.

That said... recent story events have led my character to kinda want to go on a crusade to rid the city of some political corruption that he's been seeing (e.g. the city matriarch is in league with the gangs, the gangs are exploiting their workers, gun running is being overlooked, "True Orkers" are trying to keep down the non-orc and human races, etc.).

My character, being the epitome of Chaotic Good that he is, decided that he wants to try and unite the factions to bring about a new government that will help the people and be less tolerant of this organized crime. So, after the last session, my DM offered me the opportunity to respec from a Rune Knight Fighter into an Oath of Glory Paladin. This change makes a _huge_ amount of sense narratively; he already follows the Oath of Glory tenets, mechanically it isn't a huge side-shift from what he already does, and it gets me some spells.

HOWEVER... I did notice that one thing that Rune Knight has over the Oath of Glory is that Rune Knight allows you to change size and grapple larger things. I asked the DM if he'd be willing to allow me to make a couple changes to the Oath (e.g. change out the 5th level "Magic Weapon" for "Enlarge/Reduce"), but DM said that it would be run RAW with no changes to the current Oath of Glory. Fair cop; I've got no problem with this, and this offer is super tempting.

So; my questions would be:
1. Without multi-classing, is there any way to get access to Enlarge/Reduce for my Goliath so I could continue in my grapple happy ways?
2. If not, is it better to be an Oath of Glory Paladin, or a Rune Knight Fighter? I'm equally happy with either of these options, and I honestly just want a sounding board to see whether the respec is worth it or not.

If you need any extra information, I'm more than willing to answer.

[traskomancer]

There's always potions of growth, which are only uncommon and thus might be available to buy, depending on your campaign setting.

I always vote to opt for the story choice, so if it were me I'd switch to Paladin, but that's wholly subjective.

[Unoriginal]

Hey guys!

So, I've been playing a Goliath Rune Knight that I have absolutely loved recently. We're currently level 8, and my character has been specializing in grappling. In particular, the party loves to joke about how I go big and the encounter becomes fairly trivial shortly afterwards.

That said... recent story events have led my character to kinda want to go on a crusade to rid the city of some political corruption that he's been seeing (e.g. the city matriarch is in league with the gangs, the gangs are exploiting their workers, gun running is being overlooked, "True Orkers" are trying to keep down the non-orc and human races, etc.).

My character, being the epitome of Chaotic Good that he is, decided that he wants to try and unite the factions to bring about a new government that will help the people and be less tolerant of this organized crime. So, after the last session, my DM offered me the opportunity to respec from a Rune Knight Fighter into an Oath of Glory Paladin. This change makes a _huge_ amount of sense narratively; he already follows the Oath of Glory tenets, mechanically it isn't a huge side-shift from what he already does, and it gets me some spells.

HOWEVER... I did notice that one thing that Rune Knight has over the Oath of Glory is that Rune Knight allows you to change size and grapple larger things. I asked the DM if he'd be willing to allow me to make a couple changes to the Oath (e.g. change out the 5th level "Magic Weapon" for "Enlarge/Reduce"), but DM said that it would be run RAW with no changes to the current Oath of Glory. Fair cop; I've got no problem with this, and this offer is super tempting.

So; my questions would be:
1. Without multi-classing, is there any way to get access to Enlarge/Reduce for my Goliath so I could continue in my grapple happy ways?
2. If not, is it better to be an Oath of Glory Paladin, or a Rune Knight Fighter? I'm equally happy with either of these options, and I honestly just want a sounding board to see whether the respec is worth it or not.

If you need any extra information, I'm more than willing to answer.

It's not because you act in a way that a specific Paladin Oath would approve of that you need to take that Oath, or that you need to be a Paladin.

Your character reached that point, and has decided to attempt to reach this goal, not by being a Glory Paladin, but by being themselves. Furthermore, while your character is focused on this situation right now, who knows what is going to happen? Maybe it won't be their focus on 6 months because something more immediately important has shown up, or because they changed their mind about their self-appointed goal after new elements of the situation were revealed.

All in all, I don't see why you would respec. If you want to go Paladin of Glory, you can still multiclass without changing a big part of who your character was until that point.

[GreyBlack]

It's not because you act in a way that a specific Paladin Oath would approve of that you need to take that Oath, or that you need to be a Paladin.

Your character reached that point, and has decided to attempt to reach this goal, not by being a Glory Paladin, but by being themselves. Furthermore, while your character is focused on this situation right now, who knows what is going to happen? Maybe it won't be their focus on 6 months because something more immediately important has shown up, or because they changed their mind about their self-appointed goal after new elements of the situation were revealed.

All in all, I don't see why you would respec. If you want to go Paladin of Glory, you can still multiclass without changing a big part of who your character was until that point.

One could equally argue that this is just a different expression of that power; there is quite a bit of overlap between the two options (e.g. advantage on Athletics checks, battlefield control options, pseudo-magic/magical powers, etc.). In other words, he's always been like this, but this is just a different way to express what has already been happening.

You're not wrong, just pointing out another way it could be reasoned. I will say that I think the DM is kinda stymied because I accidentally created something of a monster (throwing boulders with a carrying capacity of 4,800 lbs with a +11 Athletics check at advantage at level 8 is kinda a thing), so that's another reason I'm considering it; bring the power level of the character down a peg.

Thank you for your perspective! I'd love to get more perspectives so I can make my decision.

Edit: Forgot to add on that one of my allies casts Enhance Ability frequently. Carrying capacity of 9,600 lbs. My bad.

[nickl_2000]

I'm going to go from a non-rping aspect. Do you have the charisma to play an effective Paladin?

[Unoriginal]

throwing boulders with a carrying capacity of 4,800 lbs with a +11 Athletics check at advantage at level 8 is kinda a thing), so that's another reason I'm considering it; bring the power level of the character down a peg.

Doing attacks by using an ability check+proficiency+advantage is quite powerful indeed. Would you agree if your DM told you he wanted to remove this homebrew from the table?

[GreyBlack]

I'm going to go from a non-rping aspect. Do you have the charisma to play an effective Paladin?

Standard array. My starting stats were:
Strength: 14+2R=16
Dexterity: 10
Constitution: 15+1R=16
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 8
Charisma: 13

So depends on what you mean by "Effective." He wouldn't be min/maxed, but he would still give bonuses on his Aura of Protection, and he probably wouldn't be casting any spells that target an enemy. I suspect he'd play mostly by casting buff spells on himself and/or smiting. Y'know, kinda like a regular paladin.

[GreyBlack]

Doing attacks by using an ability check+proficiency+advantage is quite powerful indeed. Would you agree if your DM told you he wanted to remove this homebrew from the table?

Well, it's not homebrew. The Brawny feat is from UA, and he did sign off on it. I'd be perfectly happy with getting rid of that, but that still leaves me at a +8 Athletics with advantage with alarming frequency because of Rune Knight's "Giant's Might" ability.

[Unoriginal]

Well, it's not homebrew. The Brawny feat is from UA, and he did sign off on it. I'd be perfectly happy with getting rid of that, but that still leaves me at a +8 Athletics with advantage with alarming frequency because of Rune Knight's "Giant's Might" ability.

Doing attacks using a STR(Athletics) check is definitively homebrew.

Without homebrew you would need to make an Improvised Weapon attack (so STR without proficiency, unless you have the Tavern Brawler feat or similar), and the boulder would deal... well, depending on what the DM uses to calculate, but 2d10+STR damage would be it if they used the logic of the Giants' rock-throwing abilities.

Otherwise the DM could also rule that a huge boulder being dropped on the enemies is an hazard rather than an attack, but basing the save DC against your PC's STR (Athletics) is also not something included in the guidelines.

[PhantomSoul]

Well, it's not homebrew. The Brawny feat is from UA, and he did sign off on it. I'd be perfectly happy with getting rid of that, but that still leaves me at a +8 Athletics with advantage with alarming frequency because of Rune Knight's "Giant's Might" ability.

Might be looking at an incorrect version or something, but it looks like a house rule or homebrew application of the feat based on what I'm seeing for it:




You become stronger, gaining the following benefits:
• Increase your Strength score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
• You gain proficiency in the Athletics skill. If you are already proficient in the skill, you add double your proficiency bonus to checks you make with it.
• You count as if you were one size larger for the purpose of determining your carrying capacity.


And treating UA as better than homebrew is, uh, not a clear decision for me anyhow! xD (Though in this case, it's fine with the actual feat as written; using the ability check instead of the expected attack roll by normal rules seems to be where that one is breaking...)

[GreyBlack]

Might be looking at an incorrect version or something, but it looks like a house rule or homebrew application of the feat based on what I'm seeing for it:



And treating UA as better than homebrew is, uh, not a clear decision for me anyhow! xD (Though in this case, it's fine with the actual feat as written; using the ability check instead of the expected attack roll by normal rules seems to be where that one is breaking...)

So here's how it breaks down:

Strength bonus (+5) + proficiency bonus (Goliath) + proficiency bonus (Brawny) = +11 at base.

From there, Giant's Might from Rune Knight grants advantage on all Strength checks and Strength saving throws when large/invoked.

So, effectively, it becomes a +11 Athletics check with advantage to grapple folks, because grapple specifically states:



Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an Attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).


I will agree that UA might as well be called "Homebrew"; I differentiated only because it's put out by WOTC, not just some rando on the internet.

[GreyBlack]

Doing attacks using a STR(Athletics) check is definitively homebrew.

Without homebrew you would need to make an Improvised Weapon attack (so STR without proficiency, unless you have the Tavern Brawler feat or similar), and the boulder would deal... well, depending on what the DM uses to calculate, but 2d10+STR damage would be it if they used the logic of the Giants' rock-throwing abilities.

Otherwise the DM could also rule that a huge boulder being dropped on the enemies is an hazard rather than an attack, but basing the save DC against your PC's STR (Athletics) is also not something included in the guidelines.

I suggest rereading the "Grappling" rules.



When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a Special melee Attack, a grapple. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them.

The target of your grapple must be no more than one size larger than you and must be within your reach. Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an Attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you succeed, you subject the target to the Grappled condition (see Conditions ). The condition specifies the things that end it, and you can release the target whenever you like (no action required).


And, yes. I do have Tavern Brawler. Yes, I'm aware it's a trap.

ETA: OH WAIT! Do you guys think I'm attacking with the boulders at advantage? Oh, heaven's no! That's just a straight +8 attack roll (+5 strength +3 proficiency from Tavern Brawler).

[PhantomSoul]

ETA: OH WAIT! Do you guys think I'm attacking with the boulders at advantage? Oh, heaven's no! That's just a straight +8 attack roll (+5 strength +3 proficiency from Tavern Brawler).

There's the rub, yes!

[Abracadangit]

Can you tell me more about your character's personality & vibe? Then I'll have more to work off of. Mechanics and all are great -- but the question is whether or not it's in your character's heart, right.

[Unoriginal]

ETA: OH WAIT! Do you guys think I'm attacking with the boulders at advantage? Oh, heaven's no! That's just a straight +8 attack roll (+5 strength +3 proficiency from Tavern Brawler).


Ah, my bad, then. I misunderstood.

[GreyBlack]

Can you tell me more about your character's personality & vibe? Then I'll have more to work off of. Mechanics and all are great -- but the question is whether or not it's in your character's heart, right.

Sure thing!

So, the setting is called New Orc City, a homebrew setting based on late 1800's NYC. Darren is a character who came to this new country because his people were basically going to be put into work houses, so he came from across the sea at the age of 12 to help pay for his family's freedom, and he's been here for the past 4 years. I kinda based the backstory on the IRL Irish Diaspora and work houses; won't go into too much detail regarding that, but I'm just providing that basis. When he got here, he was taught to fight by the toughest SOB in New Orc City, Garkag, who was a bouncer at a local establishment.

So, he basically was a dock worker and sailor for hire up until he joined up with the group, at which point they found out that he's a hard drinking sailor with a heart of gold, but is constantly trying to fight something bigger. He can be impulsive, but family always comes first, and he's willing to fight and die to protect his family, both by blood and by choice.

At one point in the campaign, I had to take some time off, so we said that he impulsively went off to get his blood family out of the work houses and smuggle them to New Orc City so they might have a better life here, but he wound up getting caught and infused with weird magical runes (turning his fists into +1 weapons).

I normally play him as kind of a comic relief, but there's always a hint of quiet tragedy in the character because he's literally 16, and he's supporting a family of 7 from a war torn country on his adventuring money. Because of that upbringing, he didn't exactly know what he wants, because he's never been given the chance to figure it out because of all of the expectations foisted upon him.

Now, he feels he has a purpose and has sworn that he wants to remove this corruption from his new home so that people won't have to live under the thumb of the current established political order. He had planned a mayoral run, but based on the corruption he's seeing around him, he now thinks that it might be better to just unify the people to bring an end to this corrupt political system. The major impetus of this was that he discovered one of the gangs was importing weapons into the city, but the current matriarch of the city told him not to tell the people because it brings that gang "to parity" with the other gangs in the city, and she doesn't want to upset the established order of the city. Now, a CG character is going to see that organized crime is running guns and arming up for a gang war sanctioned by the current city government, they believe that's going to hurt a lot of people. As the established order of the city isn't willing to protect the people from this, then he's going to.

Mechanically, I kind of translated this "Family first" dynamic by making his primary focus on controlling the battlefield; pushing his opponents, grappling and pinning his opponents, and basically preventing his allies from coming to harm by standing in front while the other players can go ham with their abilities on the enemies. That said, there have been a couple of occasions that have kinda stood out to people, like him wrestling a 6 headed shark, picking up and dropping a crane on someone, and (most recently) wrestling an adult black dragon and winning.

Anything else you'd like?

ETA: Oh, and the character's original concept was "Groundskeeper Willie." My character creation process isn't to set a backstory into stone, but to start with a concept and see what develops over time.

[Sorinth]

If your having fun with the current build then I don't see any reason to switch classes. Also I don't see how it really makes narrative sense to respect all your previous levels as that means retconning everything. Taking an oath even joining a paladin order is just RP. It might make sense to multiclass into Paladin, but even then classes don't really exist in the game world, you can call yourself a paladin in game and RP all the oath stuff as a paladin but mechanically stick to being a fighter.

[Christew]

I will say that I think the DM is kinda stymied because I accidentally created something of a monster (throwing boulders with a carrying capacity of 4,800 lbs with a +11 Athletics check at advantage at level 8 is kinda a thing), so that's another reason I'm considering it; bring the power level of the character down a peg.
How are you running these boulders? I believe you cited improvised weapons proficiency, but what damage calculation?

Rune Knight is definitely a strong build, but even such boosted grappling shouldn't be encounter breaking (especially if it's your known go-to strategy).

[Abracadangit]

New Orc City! Fantastic!

If you think Paladin is the best fit for Darren, then by all means. He's certainly got the heart-of-gold thing going on, and his theme of looking after his family translate pretty well to a paladin's auras and whatnot.

Buuuuuut there's also a lot of grit in him, from the sound of it. You know what I mean? He's basically got a "Gangs of New York (Orc?)" backstory/milieu going on, which to me, screams Fighter. Not that you necessarily need a life of grit to be a Fighter, but a lot of Fighter base class abilities (Second Wind, Indomitable) echo that theme of something tries to knock you down, yet you shrug them off and say "No thanks, I think I'll keep standing." Which to me, seems to be the core of Darren. Whether it's dragons or giants, he approaches them with this simple, albeit effective "Well I suppose they should be over here instead" mentality. Like he's not a rage monster, he's more like a gentle giant who throws down when he has to, but when he throws down, he pulls no punches.

Plus Rune Knight has a great character arc preinstalled, where the Giant's Might increases in height and damage as you level up, as though you're becoming more in touch with your giant powers/abilities. I vote Fighter for staying to Darren's core, but if you want Paladin, I totally understand.

If you're gonna do the Paladin thing, I'd say two things:

1) Reskin the holy abilities as their runes, changing in power or nature. The runes etched onto his skin is just too cool.
2) Glory Paladins get Enhance Ability as an oath spell at level 5, which can give you advantage on Str checks anyway. Not the same thing as Giant's Might, but this way you can get the grapple boost you want without burning your Channel Divinity.

Darren sounds like a rad character, and I love the old-timey New York gangs influence. Whatever you decide to do, props on an awesome character.

[ScragglyDan]

Honestly, it sounds like this is a pretty effective build, and while there's nothing wrong with respecing into Oath of Glory, it sounds like you could just as easily keep your current build and just lean into the honor based RP. Personally, I would probably try to multiclass into Paladin on your next level up, but otherwise Rune Knight is my choice of the two. There's also an outline for a gladiator style Battlemaster Fighter in Tasha's that might thematically fit what you're going for more than Rune Knight, but without having to completely change classes. In any case, it sounds like you've got a pretty fun character and a pretty good DM, so I'd bet that anything you go with would end up being a lot of fun to play

[GreyBlack]

How are you running these boulders? I believe you cited improvised weapons proficiency, but what damage calculation?

Rune Knight is definitely a strong build, but even such boosted grappling shouldn't be encounter breaking (especially if it's your known go-to strategy).

Honestly? The boulder throwing isn't normally a big deal. Basically, I just roll whatever the DM tells me to throw based on what size the object is. I think I rolled, like, 2d10 for throwing a jet ski at someone? (Long story.)

I think the bigger problem is that I'm an old 3.5 player who took ranks in System Mastery, so knowing the ins and outs of the system (e.g. shoving prone and then grappling, causing the opponents to have disadvantage when trying to attack and making it so they can't stand back up, making it fairly easy for everyone to pick my grapple partners apart) is probably the bigger deal. I do agree that it shouldn't be encounter breaking, but when a cleric and 2 fighters can take on an adult black dragon and win, there's something to be said there.


New Orc City! Fantastic!

If you think Paladin is the best fit for Darren, then by all means. He's certainly got the heart-of-gold thing going on, and his theme of looking after his family translate pretty well to a paladin's auras and whatnot.

Buuuuuut there's also a lot of grit in him, from the sound of it. You know what I mean? He's basically got a "Gangs of New York (Orc?)" backstory/milieu going on, which to me, screams Fighter. Not that you necessarily need a life of grit to be a Fighter, but a lot of Fighter base class abilities (Second Wind, Indomitable) echo that theme of something tries to knock you down, yet you shrug them off and say "No thanks, I think I'll keep standing." Which to me, seems to be the core of Darren. Whether it's dragons or giants, he approaches them with this simple, albeit effective "Well I suppose they should be over here instead" mentality. Like he's not a rage monster, he's more like a gentle giant who throws down when he has to, but when he throws down, he pulls no punches.

Plus Rune Knight has a great character arc preinstalled, where the Giant's Might increases in height and damage as you level up, as though you're becoming more in touch with your giant powers/abilities. I vote Fighter for staying to Darren's core, but if you want Paladin, I totally understand.

If you're gonna do the Paladin thing, I'd say two things:

1) Reskin the holy abilities as their runes, changing in power or nature. The runes etched onto his skin is just too cool.
2) Glory Paladins get Enhance Ability as an oath spell at level 5, which can give you advantage on Str checks anyway. Not the same thing as Giant's Might, but this way you can get the grapple boost you want without burning your Channel Divinity.

Darren sounds like a rad character, and I love the old-timey New York gangs influence. Whatever you decide to do, props on an awesome character.

I think you may have just solved my problem. Thank you so much! I love this answer!

[togapika]

Mechanically, I kind of translated this "Family first" dynamic

Just make him a Bard who uses Bardic Inspiration by mumble-growling phrases about family and 10 second wagons and the like...

[Christew]

I do agree that it shouldn't be encounter breaking, but when a cleric and 2 fighters can take on an adult black dragon and win, there's something to be said there.
Something along the lines of "Where the heck did all my minions run off to?" If it is being said by the dragon 😄

Tough to respec levels in system mastery. Anyway, sounds like an awesome character, enjoy!

[GreyBlack]

Just make him a Bard who uses Bardic Inspiration by mumble-growling phrases about family and 10 second wagons and the like...

Oh, I briefly played a halfling ranger in a one shot for this game who hailed from Texrassia (think Texas but with dinosaurs) who rode a feathered velociraptor while shooting spikes out of the ground while wielding a crossbow. His name was Dom and he was constantly growling about "Family."


Something along the lines of "Where the heck did all my minions run off to?" If it is being said by the dragon 😄

Tough to respec levels in system mastery. Anyway, sounds like an awesome character, enjoy!

Yeah, funnily enough, there were kobold minions. Unfortunately, someone pulled out a scroll of Hypnotic Pattern and that was that.

Come to think of it, I'm not actually sure what the other fighter is. He might actually not be a fighter. Anyway, point being that there were 3 of us, I kept the black dragon on the ground, and everyone else went ham.

But, yeah. System Mastery is OP and should be banned. :smalltongue: