Anti charger strats

[Vault756]

I'm looking for some Anti Charger ideas. Basically any book that isn't Psionic or Dragon Magazine. I've got a few so far but all of them have some holes in them.

Contingent Spell to either teleport away or make a wall of some sort and block the charger. This one is pretty good but it only works once. I don't know of any ways to counter it directly but the fact that it only protects you once per encounter makes this pretty meh in my opinion.

Staying close to the charger. Only works if they don't have some way to move as a swift action. Plenty of maneuvers do this, Belt of Battle would enable it, or Travel Devotion.

Difficult terrain. Sometimes this works, it really depends on the terrain though. Players can jump during a charge(and often do) so if their Jump skill is juiced enough they might be able to invalidate the terrain. Also the Salamander Charge maneuver doesn't care about terrain in the slightest.

Getting full cover or utilizing line of sight. They can't charge you without los but this also limits your actions against them. This is decent.

Steadfast boots. Only useful for martials and doesn't actually stop the charge at all, it just lets you attack them for a decent chunk.

Evasive Reflexes + Robilar's Gambit. Good against Pounce but you still take the first hit. Theoretically the charger can over come this with Wolf Pack Tactics and a Reach weapon that let's them attack adjacent squares but that's not terribly common.

Stand Still + Hold the Line + Evasive Reflexes. That's a lot of feats and it only works if you have more reach than the guy charging you otherwise you're going to be in their threatened range and get hit before they enter yours.

Counter Charge Maneuver. Requires an opposed check. No guarantee you'll win. Also it's a Swordsage maneuver so re-readying it sucks.

Readying an action against a charge. Tons of ways to dodge a charge if you know it's coming and you can afford to burn your standard action. Ready an action to cast a Wall or teleport spell just like you would with a Contingent spell. Still anything that requires you to win Initiative and then do nothing against the charger is bad.

Miss chances. Just chances, there are ways around displacement and concealment.


Anything I missed or got wrong?

[Anthrowhale]

Maybe Thicket of Blades + Stand Still (+reach)?

Also, flying high or incorporeal in the ground.

And, there's Abrupt Jaunt of course.

[Cruiser1]

And, there's Abrupt Jaunt of course.
Abrupt Jaunt ACF for Conjurer Wizards is indeed great way to teleport out of the way of charge attacks (and many other attacks or spells) as an immediate action.

Sorcerer can cast Wings of Cover as an immediate action to get full cover from one attack or targeted spell.

Both can cast Lesser Celerity as an immediate action to move out of the way. Standard action Celerity offers even more options.

[Sir Chuckles]

It's not always the best solution, but there's a special place in my heart for the Blockade spell from Complete Scoundrel.

It's a 1st level Sorc/Wiz, Ranger, and Druid spell. As a Swift action, you plop down a 5ft cube of wood that exists for three rounds. It's nifty.

[Maat Mons]

You could always have someone standing between you and the charger. Charges can't go through occupied spaces and have to be in a straight line, after all.

Steadfast Boots might actually help you stop a charge, but only if you have some sort of rider effect you can apply to the attack. All I can think of right now is the Knockback feat, but someone else may be able to come up with something.

[Particle_Man]

More of a “make them pay for it” thing but the good old fashioned “set spear vs. a charge” might deserve a mention if you are a completist. Works with some similar weapons too.

[Gruftzwerg]

1. Shadow Cloak (DotU). 5500GP, shoulders slot. Teleport 10' as an immediate action three times per day
Just teleport as immediate action out of his straight charge line, when he moves up to you.

2. Any kind of illusion spell blocking his Line of Sight for him (but not for you: e.g. a illusionary wall which is transparent for you, while he has to interact to even get a will save).

3. Any kind of ground crowd control: Gease, Ice Slick, Web.. (can be used in Wands or Drow House insignias)

4. Mundane items like Marbles can do the job too. Get yourself a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2K) for an unseen servant all day that will deploy the marbles for you under the enemies.

5. Mirror Image

6. Spiderclimb / Fly

[tyckspoon]

Stand Still + Hold the Line + Evasive Reflexes. That's a lot of feats and it only works if you have more reach than the guy charging you otherwise you're going to be in their threatened range and get hit before they enter yours.


Hold The Line lets you attack them when they enter your threatened area instead of when they exit it, it's the entire function of the feat. 'Have longer reach than the guy attacking you' is still a useful thing, but you only need equal reach for this. Suppose there's some argument about if ending the move of the would-be charger with a trip or Stand Still actually ends their Charge, assuming they have already made it a square where they could reach you. Hitting them with a Bull Rush, grappling them (drags them into your square and arguably disables Charge because they are no longer moving to the 'nearest square that they can attack from') or using a Knockback-enhanced Attack of Opportunity could also be means of using AoO triggers to interfere with a Charge-in-progress. Suppose also Disarming them or Sundering their weapon, but who does that.

[Gruftzwerg]

Shifting Defense (Stance from ToB) + Combat Reflexes
When someone declares an attack on you, you can spend an AoO to make a 5ft step out of his reach.

[tiercel]

Difficult terrain. Sometimes this works, it really depends on the terrain though. Players can jump during a charge(and often do) so if their Jump skill is juiced enough they might be able to invalidate the terrain. Also the Salamander Charge maneuver doesn't care about terrain in the slightest.



Special case of difficult terrain: Earth Devotion (CC) lets you create difficult terrain as an immediate action, which means unless the charger is *already* immune to difficult terrain, you should generally be able to catch them out before they can even jump (i.e., during the running part of a running jump, unless they can pull off the whole jumping charge from a standstill).

Yeah, okay, it won't stop a flying charge, but that doesn't actually seem to come up that often in my experience (and for serious chargers, it might be pretty rare if they actually want to activate Leap Attack). As added bonuses, Earth Devotion gets an extra use for every turn attempt (not every 2 or 3), and it has other uses (immediate-action-ignoring-difficult terrain, plus at 10th+level, immediate-action better-than-caltrops).

[Rebel7284]

Craft Contingent Spell allows you to have a number of contingencies equal to your HD.
You probably don't want to set ALL of them against charges specifically, but technically you can, and probably should set at least a few to prevent melee attacks.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'll agree that Earth Devotion is the most straightforward, especially in the low to mid levels. There's no takebacks, so once they start charging if they're suddenly trying to charge on difficult terrain several things occur. First they need to make a balance check (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/balance.htm), with a -5 penalty for accelerated movement, then a second one because a charge moves them double their speed. Failing either check by 4 or less means they must stop moving, failing by 5 or more means they fall prone and also stop moving. Next, RAW their charge automatically fails anyway, unless they get to ignore difficult terrain: "You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge)" Again, there's no takebacks, so they spent a full-round action to attempt a charge, that's still been spent even if they don't get to finish the action. Also keep in mind that Earth Devotion is an instantaneous effect that permanently makes the ground into mundane difficult terrain. Effects like Freedom of Movement are of no help in this situation, as moving and acting 'normally' in mundane difficult terrain means you're still hindered by it.

Any terrain that hinders movement, such as normal difficult terrain, such as deep snow, ice, waist-deep water (if they don't have Freedom of Movement), mud, extremely rough ground, unstable/inclined floors such as a sandy ramp or a swinging rope bridge, etc. will prevent charging. Even Solid Fog or Freezing Fog or Evard's Black Tentacles or Entangle or similar would work if they don't have FoM. If you have a caster baddie, put him on a raised platform with a railing that they would need to run around the back of to reach a ladder or stairs to get to the top of it. If they're flying chargers, put thorny vines hanging down in front of the baddie that will block their movement on a direct approach or similar. If the PCs are invading the bad guys' lair, definitely make the terrain favor the bad guys.


You could give it exceptional reach and Combat Reflexes, such as with a (Persistent, Greater Magic Weapon, Wraithstrike) Thunderlance, plus either Stand Still (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) or Large and In Charge in Draconomicon, or even Knock Down (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown), or the spell Bladeweave. Basically an AoO combined with anything that can stop them.


You could throw in a mook with the Ranged Pin feat in CW or similar. Or just put a bruiser mook between the big boss and the way the PCs will be coming from. Say the bruiser used a Potion of Displacement or Potion of Greater Invisibility or similar as they kicked in the door.


If the opponent is a spellcaster, make liberal use of the Invisible Spell metamagic. Something like Invisible Wall of Incarnum is decent for potentially splitting up the party, especially if you use Summon Undead to make Allips that will get some hits in and deal Wis damage. Put two Invisible Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist in their path and as soon as they run into it and take damage they're frightened and can't approach closer and must run away. Any of those will beat Freedom of Movement as well as flying chargers.

If the PCs can see invisible things all the time, use Invisible Spell with (Widened) Obscuring Snow in Frostburn. Anyone who can't see invisibility will be completely unhindered, but anyone who can see invisibility will be effectively blinded by it. The spell Snowsight in that same book will allow the caster to overcome it if they can see invisibility. Be careful with these spells as they're absurdly powerful in the hands of PCs.

[Anthrowhale]

One other thing---if they are using Shock Trooper, then having mook A be a target with mook B nearby having power attack can illuminate the drawback of Shock Trooper.

[Xervous]

If immediate action difficult terrain fizzles a charge, I don’t see why a net won’t either. Heck, doesn’t even need to be immediate action since it targets touch AC and shock trooper is a probable inclusion.

[Telonius]

A couple of tactics that might fall into more than one you've listed: illusions and traps. Gruftzwerg mentioned making illusory barriers, but it can work the other way, too. You can make an area seem like it's clear of difficult terrain, so the charger wastes an action trying to get to you.

Traps are another option. Something as simple as a mundane pit trap will break a charge if the charger falls into it.

[Lans]

Minions clogging the charging routes

Also Harpoons, the reduce your speed which should keep them from charging

[Rebel7284]

Diving counting as a charge really messes with the whole "difficult terrain" approach in the mid and high levels and/or mid and high levels of optimization.

[Zanos]

Difficult terrain. Sometimes this works, it really depends on the terrain though. Players can jump during a charge(and often do) so if their Jump skill is juiced enough they might be able to invalidate the terrain. Also the Salamander Charge maneuver doesn't care about terrain in the slightest.
Keep in mind that it's not just difficult terrain, it's anything that that hinders movement. There are a lot of spells that will reduce movement in a large area with no save or check, and many of those spells are actually spheres, not circles, so jumping won't help in most circumstances. Web, Grease, Ice Slick, Solid Fog, Entangle, etc. will all prevent charging.

Fatigue explicitly prevents charging too, and you can no save fatigue with some low level spells. Kelgores Grave Mist will fatigue, no save, in a 20ft spread.

[Darg]

Tower shields are one option, can't attack some one in total cover and they can act as a shield for those behind them.

Readying actions can be extremely prickly against shocktroopers.

Incorporate terrain with cover that can block movement. Getting into position to safely charge should be a tactical choice.

[gijoemike]

The spell slow will reduce their speed and also only allow for single action charges. No more double moves on the charge. It is a huge hamper to chargers. But you have to land the spell first.

[Vault756]

More of a “make them pay for it” thing but the good old fashioned “set spear vs. a charge” might deserve a mention if you are a completist. Works with some similar weapons too.

The problem with this and things like it is it requires you to burn your standard action. It's useless if you lose the initiative roll. If you set your spear and the charger attacks someone else it's useless.


Shifting Defense (Stance from ToB) + Combat Reflexes
When someone declares an attack on you, you can spend an AoO to make a 5ft step out of his reach.

How is it I've never seen the Shifting Defense Stance before today? Love this one.


1. Shadow Cloak (DotU). 5500GP, shoulders slot. Teleport 10' as an immediate action three times per day
Just teleport as immediate action out of his straight charge line, when he moves up to you.

2. Any kind of illusion spell blocking his Line of Sight for him (but not for you: e.g. a illusionary wall which is transparent for you, while he has to interact to even get a will save).

3. Any kind of ground crowd control: Grease, Ice Slick, Web.. (can be used in Wands or Drow House insignias)

4. Mundane items like Marbles can do the job too. Get yourself a Collar of Perpetual Attendance (2K) for an unseen servant all day that will deploy the marbles for you under the enemies.

5. Mirror Image

6. Spiderclimb / Fly

Shadow Cloak is insane. Never seen this item before.

[Gusmo]

Diving counting as a charge really messes with the whole "difficult terrain" approach in the mid and high levels and/or mid and high levels of optimization.

The Rules Compendium mentions you can jump obstacles during a charge, so difficult terrain has always been a spotty strategy. By the time someone qualifies for shock trooper, they may also have leap attack, so it's to be expected. If they obtain leaping dragon stance to have all their jumps treated as having a running start, they're going to be able to cover quite a bit of distance in the air by perhaps reliably having a minimum jump check of 30. Heck, a minimum check of 40 wouldn't surprise me, if they have high STR and a high movement speed, both things which have many other benefits. Plus there are a number of swift action options for them to reposition before a charge as well.

I agree immediate action dodges are the safest bet. As has been pointed out, once they declare their charge, that's it, they're committed. Trading your immediate action for their full round action is probably always going to be worth it regardless of context.

[Darg]

The Rules Compendium mentions you can jump obstacles during a charge, so difficult terrain has always been a spotty strategy. By the time someone qualifies for shock trooper, they may also have leap attack, so it's to be expected. If they obtain leaping dragon stance to have all their jumps treated as having a running start, they're going to be able to cover quite a bit of distance in the air by perhaps reliably having a minimum jump check of 30. Heck, a minimum check of 40 wouldn't surprise me, if they have high STR and a high movement speed, both things which have many other benefits. Plus there are a number of swift action options for them to reposition before a charge as well.

I agree immediate action dodges are the safest bet. As has been pointed out, once they declare their charge, that's it, they're committed. Trading your immediate action for their full round action is probably always going to be worth it regardless of context.

That is only a long jump. The only situation it applies is if you are jumping over a hole or something of that nature. You still can't charge if there is an obstacle, difficult terrain, or a creature that impedes movement in the way. The only way to get around this is leap attack which specifically allows you to ignore difficult terrain for the distance you jump, acrobatic charge allows you to flat out charge over difficult terrain, or drunken master's stagger or salamander's charge which removes any restriction as long as you can go around it.

Dive attacks are hard to set up without perfect maneuverability. Even then it takes a turn to set up the charge as you still have to drop at least 10 ft and move horizontally 30 ft. According to the RC you are only allowed to make claw or talon attacks during a dive. The only exception to that is the improved dragon wings feat which allows you to make the attack with any piercing weapon.

Dive attacks are out unless you have a specific feat or one of 2 natural attacks. If you don't have an exception from leap attack, acrobatic charge, stagger, or salamander's charge you can't even initiate the charge if one of the restrictions is between you and the target. Anything that prevents line of sight prevents charging.

Basically, the only way a character is able to charge consistently is if the DM sets up the terrain to be not difficult and open and they don't make use of tower shields or other ways to obscure sight/provide cover.

[Gruftzwerg]

Basically, the only way a character is able to charge consistently is if the DM sets up the terrain to be not difficult and open and they don't make use of tower shields or other ways to obscure sight/provide cover.

Nah.. sorry but imho it more like a chess game with different strategies that each have their own counters.

If you wanna build an Ubercharger, imho you are well advised to build around all of those problematic things:

- Fly counters the stuff on the ground
- Drunken Master lvl 2 Stagger ability gives you unlimited turns while charging and gets rid of the straight line restriction
- alternatively a swift action teleport/movement can help to reposition before charging again
- swift action teleport counters immediate action teleport
- True Sight counters Illusions
- Hide and/or Invisibility as charger limits the options your enemies have to counter you or makes em at least harder
....
______________

For those interested: Have a look at my clawlock build in my signature if you want to see a full optimized Ubercharger build. He can charge every turn, be it either by doing a looping (dive attack) or by running back and forth (regular charge).

[Albanymusicfund]

I recommend the Bands of steel spell from the Spell Compendium. Regardless if the subject succeeds or fails they are placed in chains and cannot charge without dedicating a full-round action. In addition, any way to reduce movement (such as solid fog) could handicap the ubercharger.

[Gusmo]

That is only a long jump. The only situation it applies is if you are jumping over a hole or something of that nature. You still can't charge if there is an obstacle, difficult terrain, or a creature that impedes movement in the way. The only way to get around this is leap attack which specifically allows you to ignore difficult terrain for the distance you jump, acrobatic charge allows you to flat out charge over difficult terrain, or drunken master's stagger or salamander's charge which removes any restriction as long as you can go around it.

Dive attacks are hard to set up without perfect maneuverability. Even then it takes a turn to set up the charge as you still have to drop at least 10 ft and move horizontally 30 ft. According to the RC you are only allowed to make claw or talon attacks during a dive. The only exception to that is the improved dragon wings feat which allows you to make the attack with any piercing weapon.

Dive attacks are out unless you have a specific feat or one of 2 natural attacks. If you don't have an exception from leap attack, acrobatic charge, stagger, or salamander's charge you can't even initiate the charge if one of the restrictions is between you and the target. Anything that prevents line of sight prevents charging.

Basically, the only way a character is able to charge consistently is if the DM sets up the terrain to be not difficult and open and they don't make use of tower shields or other ways to obscure sight/provide cover.

Long jumps are specifically named by the Rules Compendium as being fair game during a charge. Charging has a decent amount of writing devoted to it in that book. Tumbling (basically no restrictions) and balancing (carries penalties) are also allowed during a charge.


"Jumping during a Charge
You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump."

[Darg]

Long jumps are specifically named by the Rules Compendium as being fair game during a charge. Charging has a decent amount of writing devoted to it in that book. Tumbling (basically no restrictions) and balancing (carries penalties) are also allowed during a charge.

During a charge yes, but you are still restricted before a charge. "meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump." You can't jump over difficult terrain during a charge without leap attack because you can't charge in the first place if there is difficult terrain in the way. It's like saying stunning fist retroactively makes the attack a sneak attack because it causes the target to lose their dex to AC. You also can't Tumble through a creature's space during a charge because you aren't allowed to charge in the first place if a creature is in the way.

[Gusmo]

During a charge yes, but you are still restricted before a charge. "meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump." You can't jump over difficult terrain during a charge without leap attack because you can't charge in the first place if there is difficult terrain in the way. It's like saying stunning fist retroactively makes the attack a sneak attack because it causes the target to lose their dex to AC. You also can't Tumble through a creature's space during a charge because you aren't allowed to charge in the first place if a creature is in the way.

I take issue with your nitpick of the language, as the "other criteria" wording would seem to only care about things that aren't difficult terrain. Further, there are swift action movement options like travel devotion and sudden leap to properly position yourself in the first place.

[Darg]

I take issue with your nitpick of the language, as the "other criteria" wording would seem to only care about things that aren't difficult terrain. Further, there are swift action movement options like travel devotion and sudden leap to properly position yourself in the first place.

It isn't nitpicking of any language. "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, is diffi cult terrain, or contains a creature (not a helpless one), you can’t charge." To even start a charge through those restrictions, you need an exception. The jumping during a charge rules do not give an exception to the requirements for starting a charge.

[Gusmo]

It isn't nitpicking of any language. "If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, is diffi cult terrain, or contains a creature (not a helpless one), you can’t charge." To even start a charge through those restrictions, you need an exception. The jumping during a charge rules do not give an exception to the requirements for starting a charge.

If what you're saying is correct, then the Rules Compendium passage would seem dysfunctional and without purpose. I don't buy it.

[Telonius]

Yeah, that bit of the charge rules is dysfunctional anyway, if you combine it with invisibility or illusions. Imagine a Wizard who's standing behind an invisible Fighter.

Player: "I charge at the Wizard!"
DM: "... you can't."
Player: "Really? Why not?"
DM: "You, ah, feel like it's just not going to be possible to do."
Player: "Any reason why not? Do I see something blocking me?"
DM: "No."
Player: "O-kayyyy..."

It would get even weirder if you had somebody ready an action to step in if somebody charges. The person starts the charge, which triggers your action, but then you move to a space where the charge isn't possible, so the charge never happened. The universe gets a divide by cucumber error.

[Darg]

I never said the rule isn't dysfunctional. Just like the rule that you can't move through an opponent's space without giving the option for the opponent to sidestep to prevent being found if invisible for example. The dysfunction is the whole reason overrun during a charge was errataed out.

My groups have started using the 3.0 rules for charging which gets rid of all the dysfunction, allows you to overrun during a charge, and allows a much more functional ride-by attack. Of course, we don't exploit pounce and combine it with things that make it simply ridiculous.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

In the same vein as Abrupt Jaunt, Flicker is a 3rd level Shadowcaster mystery that lets you teleport as an immediate action. There's also a vestige that grants the mystery at-will, IIRC.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wings of Cover has been mentioned, but it's also worth mentioning that you can put it in a wand and put that in a wand chamber of whatever the creature's holding. The Rules Compendium clarifies that any spell trigger or spell completion item (wand, staff, scroll) has an activation time matching the casting time of the spell being used. So a Wand of Wings of Cover is still an immediate action to use, as long as they're holding it. Give it at least one level of Sorcerer or enough UMD to reliably succeed to use that.

[Lorddenorstrus]

Ok so, as a DM you have a player charging and it's.. to effective for the power level of your game? Or did I misread. Because if so, rather than inhibiting the player from doing his gimmick and making him in turn become "bored" from being unable to play his character repeatedly. Why not out of character have a conversation and have him build a lower OP character that's more in line with the rest of the party if an uber charger isn't par for the course.

Also short of Immediate action teleports, very little counters a perfectly optimized charger. Terrain works low level, then they fly. Very quickly through multiple methods not being needed to go straight is equally resolved. Invisible Walls can work but shouldn't if the player has proper items to see said things. So stuff like Abrupt Jaunt and it's ilk is what you're left with. This looks like a DM vs Player arms race. "Everything is bad terrain." level later "I fly now." "You charged into an invisible wall." buys item to see that. Etc etc. It isn't .. well a good idea for cohesive gameplay.

[Maat Mons]

My guess is that Vault wants to add a round or two to the duration of some boss fights. In which case, minions are a good solution. The player will have to "waste" a round killing a minion to clear a path to the big bad, but he'll still feel like he accomplished something.

[Techwarrior]

Ok so, as a DM you have a player charging and it's.. to effective for the power level of your game? Or did I misread. Because if so, rather than inhibiting the player from doing his gimmick and making him in turn become "bored" from being unable to play his character repeatedly. Why not out of character have a conversation and have him build a lower OP character that's more in line with the rest of the party if an uber charger isn't par for the course.

Also short of Immediate action teleports, very little counters a perfectly optimized charger. Terrain works low level, then they fly. Very quickly through multiple methods not being needed to go straight is equally resolved. Invisible Walls can work but shouldn't if the player has proper items to see said things. So stuff like Abrupt Jaunt and it's ilk is what you're left with. This looks like a DM vs Player arms race. "Everything is bad terrain." level later "I fly now." "You charged into an invisible wall." buys item to see that. Etc etc. It isn't .. well a good idea for cohesive gameplay.

I did not get the idea that the DM in this case felt like the player was too strong. If a character has a gimmick that gimmick should not work all the time. This is similar to a blaster occasionally having to deal with damage immunities, resistance, or spell resistance and rogues have to deal with Sneak Attack immunities all the time. If one character's thing works all the time and the other players' things don't, that's quite unfair.

Another thing that's good against chargers is to just beat them in Initiative with a bruiser. If they need to charge to activate their build and you have closed to melee they can't charge anymore.

[Albanymusicfund]

In addition, the Deepstone Sentinel class is good for making anti-chargers due to its inherent ability to make difficult terrain,

[Telonius]

Any effect that knocks a creature prone will mess with its ability to charge. From prone, you can only crawl 5 ft as a move action, or stand up from prone as a move action, so it can buy you a round where the charger can't charge. (There are ways to get around this from skill tricks, or various ways of getting extra move actions, but the charger isn't guaranteed to have those)