Is Ravenloft in 5e really as bad as they say?

[87blue]

The worst I heard was changing the gender and races of some of the villians...but they are villians so is this really a problem? I mean I know one the big bads was already bisexual long before this...

[Naanomi]

I can be a stickler for lore consistency, but a little tweaking of characterization of a few (mostly tertiary) characters is frankly the least prominent change they made to Ravenloft as a setting here. Overall I think it was a pretty good representation

[Evaar]

It’s good. Van Richten’s is one of the better books they’ve put out, imo.

[Ralanr]

I liked the book, though I didn't know of the villains outside of TVTropes.

The only 'complaint' I have is that Reiner has become less sympathetic. Her old lore as a darklord to me was more beautifully tragic, but this version makes her a better villainess.

[Zhorn]

Honestly wondering who "they" are who said it was bad.
I've only ever heard positive opinions on Ravenloft.

[87blue]

Honestly wondering who "they" are who said it was bad.
I've only ever heard positive opinions on Ravenloft.

1D4Chan, but there were no specifics.

[Warlock'sFriend]

It's easily my favorite book. Most of the actual complaints (not including the 4chan sjw boogeyman rage) is from fans of the old settings who are frustrated that it is more of a reboot than a continuation, which is fair but doesn't mean that the new book is bad.

I very much enjoy the new book. It's a great toolbox that gives me just enough to have an adventure idea set up when I need one while still providing loads of flexibility. I also am enjoying that they gave ways to connect the different domains through interconnected arcs.

All in all, the book is excellent if you're into the spooky horror setting vibe, aren't overly attached to the old lore, and are grownup enough to understand that inclusiveness, representation, and retiring harmful tropes are all good things.

[Toadkiller]

I’m working on a COS game. The horror theme is fun, but I do have concerns about it really staying fun for a whole campaign. It feels more constrained than a “normal” setting.

We will see!

[Warder]

CoS was a great campaign! But I haven't checked out the other book yet, when I heard that Sithicus was no longer part of it that kind of took the wind out of my Ravenloft sails. It was just another reminder that 2021 WotC and 2021 Warder seem to always look for different things in D&D, I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

I’m working on a COS game. The horror theme is fun, but I do have concerns about it really staying fun for a whole campaign. It feels more constrained than a “normal” setting.
Once I saw the price list at the general store in the first town we ran into (where the Blood on the Vine Inn is located) I wanted to burn it down and take all of their stuff.
Highway robbery.
The rest of the party got me to calm down.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I’m working on a COS game. The horror theme is fun, but I do have concerns about it really staying fun for a whole campaign. It feels more constrained than a “normal” setting.

We will see!
Embrace the constraint. Barovia isn't a place as it is a prison--for Strahd, yes, but also for the players when they're pulled in. Have paths curve back around on themselves; have NPCs go through the exact same routines every day like they're in a video game. Describe the castle looming overhead no matter where you are, and put the same background characters in every town. The players are trapped, so make sure they FEEL trapped*.



*Assuming willing buy-in.

[Ralanr]

Embrace the constraint. Barovia isn't a place as it is a prison--for Strahd, yes, but also for the players when they're pulled in. Have paths curve back around on themselves; have NPCs go through the exact same routines every day like they're in a video game. Describe the castle looming overhead no matter where you are, and put the same background characters in every town. The players are trapped, so make sure they FEEL trapped*.



*Assuming willing buy-in.

Given the nature of the Dark Powers and the realms, this is super accurate and really should be explored more when running in these settings.

[dafrca]

I loved the original setting and to be honest liked this 5e version quite a bit. There are some differences, but as Warlock'sFriend said, it feels more like a reboot than a continuation. I would love to play in the setting in 5e but at the moment that is not open to me. I look forward to when it is though. :smallsmile:

[Kurt Kurageous]

I have run CoS something under a dozen times. It's not for everyone. I make this very clear to anyone who wants me to run it. You are consenting to an adult role playing game that does not let you have a safe word other than, "I quit."

CoS is the only adventure which requires the DM to attempt to emotionally abuse their players. Nothing else comes close. CoS is a series of events that mess with player's minds, are laden with emotion, and appeal to heroics. Typical heroic reactions then blow up in their heroic faces.

The inertia/atrophy of Barovia is hard to overcome. The place is oppressive. Everything bends tends towards a pre-ordained outcome, a TPK at the hands of Strahd. The deck is very much stacked (including the Tarroka one), and the hands dealt get the players oh so very close to winning. That's why people want to play it. It's a challenge. DMs who do not present this challenge IMO should not run it.

It's a game born in the season of one-shots, so it's not surprising that it's not for new players, and not for young players. It's meant to be a grownups game run by and played by grownups. And like its predecessor ToH, it's one you can expect to lose.

[P. G. Macer]

I have run CoS something under a dozen times. It's not for everyone. I make this very clear to anyone who wants me to run it. You are consenting to an adult role playing game that does not let you have a safe word other than, "I quit."

CoS is the only adventure which requires the DM to attempt to emotionally abuse their players. Nothing else comes close. CoS is a series of events that mess with player's minds, are laden with emotion, and appeal to heroics. Typical heroic reactions then blow up in their heroic faces.

The inertia/atrophy of Barovia is hard to overcome. The place is oppressive. Everything bends tends towards a pre-ordained outcome, a TPK at the hands of Strahd. The deck is very much stacked (including the Tarroka one), and the hands dealt get the players oh so very close to winning. That's why people want to play it. It's a challenge. DMs who do not present this challenge IMO should not run it.

It's a game born in the season of one-shots, so it's not surprising that it's not for new players, and not for young players. It's meant to be a grownups game run by and played by grownups. And like its predecessor ToH, it's one you can expect to lose.

I think OP was asking about the Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft setting sourcebook, not Curse of Strahd.

[Kurt Kurageous]

I think OP was asking about the Van Richten’s Guide to Ravenloft setting sourcebook, not Curse of Strahd.

You are correct. It was OT.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

CoS was a great campaign! But I haven't checked out the other book yet, when I heard that Sithicus was no longer part of it that kind of took the wind out of my Ravenloft sails. It was just another reminder that 2021 WotC and 2021 Warder seem to always look for different things in D&D, I think.

Sadly that's less WotC making a decision and more the Dragonlance people insisting Soth was never there.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Given the nature of the Dark Powers and the realms, this is super accurate and really should be explored more when running in these settings.
I really wish I thought of it back when I was actually running the module :p

[Waterdeep Merch]

I have a love/hate relationship with it, myself. A lot of the changes make things less scary.

I specifically hate every single instance of the Dark Powers in the book, and their apparent completely random choosing of Darklords now. A lot of the redesigned Darklords feel like they don't (or initially didn't) deserve what happened to them. Before, you had to be an atypical monster to get trapped in the Domains of Dread. The big examples for me are: Dementlieu's Saidra who was given a lifetime of bad hands before making a single very understandable grey morality decision and getting trapped and turned into a literal monster for it; Lamordia's Viktra who, unlike her previous counterpart, basically never did anything evil, just misguided at worst; and Falkovnia's Vladeska, who may have been a grim and gritty mercenary but made fairly mundane-if-hard calls that were completely warranted for the survival of herself and her people.

The writers refused to give them a serious descent into darkness, and it defies their own bullet points at the start of the Domains section explaining that a Darklord is supposed to have committed some sort of heinous evil. Instead they've done very understandable things and received a wildly over the top punishment for it. I hate that, a lot. You can fix this yourself by thinking it through a little more (let Saidra's story continue a little further, give her power, and let her do horrible things before becoming a Darklord, have Viktra become murderous in her pursuits, and make Vladeska a brutal tyrant), but it's always a little irritating when it doesn't work out of the box. Oh, and the lack of stats is annoying and their reason for it is dumb. Prepare to do a lot of homework.

Oh! And the Carnival. Like Falkovnia, it couldn't really remain what it was in modern times, that's not my complaint. Litwick Market is kind of cool, but the idea of it being a domain managed by a sword that doesn't do anything and isn't apparently being punished is dumb, they should've just ejected the Gentleman Caller storyline if they were going to neuter it this far, and the rapping were-hare is impossibly stupid. I fixed this by removing the entire domain schtick, turning the Caller into an elusive possession-style demon responsible for atrocities on countless other worlds instead of an incubus, and reworking all the events entirely to be more of a traditional carnival with a slightly creepy edge rather than a freak show.

Then there's everything to do with the Priests of Osybus. Their story innately ruins the Dark Powers by making them entirely too mundane, seeing as how a mortal man managed to become one by just putting in the effort. If you want to use their (admittedly cool) stat blocks, have them be deluded or mistaken in some way, or nix their story entirely and just come up with something new. I did the latter, merging them with the Amber Order from CoS and some of the story behind the Fraternity of Shadows- they originally created the amber sarcophagi not to trap the vestiges, but to communicate with them in the hopes of learning the secrets of immortality. The last and most dangerous vestige they contacted was Vampyr, which, unknown to them, was a Dark Power. This drove the entire order irrevocably insane and allowed them the foothold in reality they needed to nudge Strahd von Zarovich into committing the atrocities that let them claim him and the land, creating the Domains of Dread. The Priests of Osybus, formed from the remnants of the Amber Order in the aftermath of all this, are convinced that the world around them is an illusion, and that learning to control that illusion could make you a god. They even believe this was achieved once, by their mythical founder, Osybus, who created a paradise beyond the veil of the mists and now acts as the Morninglord. Which isn't true at all, but they zealously believe it.

That said, the stuff on running horror games was great, the player options are useful (if brief), the stuff for making your own Domain and Darklord is excellent, and the sizable bestiary is my single most favorite in the entire edition. Seriously, I love the bestiary in this book so much, and my players have been having a field day with them. Some of the brand new domains are really good, specifically Kalakeri and Cyre 1313 (which manages to be exciting with a fraction of the word count other Domains got). If you want to use this book as a guide to make your own setting and game, this is a real treat. And if you're willing to put in the effort to fix a few things/you and your players just aren't that crazy serious about your horror, this can make a good overview of the setting for virtually any sort of horror campaign.

Yes, I know my list of complaints was long, but it's because I otherwise really like the book.

[tokek]

I have run CoS something under a dozen times. It's not for everyone. I make this very clear to anyone who wants me to run it. You are consenting to an adult role playing game that does not let you have a safe word other than, "I quit."

CoS is the only adventure which requires the DM to attempt to emotionally abuse their players. Nothing else comes close. CoS is a series of events that mess with player's minds, are laden with emotion, and appeal to heroics. Typical heroic reactions then blow up in their heroic faces.

The inertia/atrophy of Barovia is hard to overcome. The place is oppressive. Everything bends tends towards a pre-ordained outcome, a TPK at the hands of Strahd. The deck is very much stacked (including the Tarroka one), and the hands dealt get the players oh so very close to winning. That's why people want to play it. It's a challenge. DMs who do not present this challenge IMO should not run it.

It's a game born in the season of one-shots, so it's not surprising that it's not for new players, and not for young players. It's meant to be a grownups game run by and played by grownups. And like its predecessor ToH, it's one you can expect to lose.

I have to say that we got through it with only one character death (and one retirement due to trauma) but also we got lucky with a killer combo vs Strahd himself and landed a couple of big crits in the moment he was unable to evade.

The party was super-traumatised and the characters are still acting that way as we move into the new phase of our campaign. I feel like that's appropriate for CoS survivors.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I specifically hate every single instance of the Dark Powers in the book, and their apparent completely random choosing of Darklords now. A lot of the redesigned Darklords feel like they don't (or initially didn't) deserve what happened to them.


I think the idea is the Dark Powers are less Alien beings snatching truly evil people and more Alien beings punishing Hubris.

For the example of Viktra, you're right and wrong (IMO, not saying anything factually) She's not what Victor was. But there is hubris there in rating themselves above the natural order and there were crimes committed that people were justifiably angry about. So instead of being snatched because she's a monster creating monsters, she's snatched for being unwilling to consider the needs of others and thinking her creations are more important than that. Hence her being renowned and hating it as part of her curse.

[Angelalex242]

Have NPCs feel like a video game.

"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"
"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Have NPCs feel like a video game.

"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"
"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"

I haven't gone that far.

But I run my world similar to season 1 of Once Upon a Time. Where it's essentially a constant loop.

[Ralanr]

I think the idea is the Dark Powers are less Alien beings snatching truly evil people and more Alien beings punishing Hubris.

For the example of Viktra, you're right and wrong (IMO, not saying anything factually) She's not what Victor was. But there is hubris there in rating themselves above the natural order and there were crimes committed that people were justifiably angry about. So instead of being snatched because she's a monster creating monsters, she's snatched for being unwilling to consider the needs of others and thinking her creations are more important than that. Hence her being renowned and hating it as part of her curse.

Now this, this is a good analysis.


Have NPCs feel like a video game.

"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"
"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"

NPCs give their long-winded quest text and then repeat it when asked a question.

Actually a Dark Domain where the people are basically just Skyrim NPCs would be a fun little area to explore for a session or two.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I think the idea is the Dark Powers are less Alien beings snatching truly evil people and more Alien beings punishing Hubris.

For the example of Viktra, you're right and wrong (IMO, not saying anything factually) She's not what Victor was. But there is hubris there in rating themselves above the natural order and there were crimes committed that people were justifiably angry about. So instead of being snatched because she's a monster creating monsters, she's snatched for being unwilling to consider the needs of others and thinking her creations are more important than that. Hence her being renowned and hating it as part of her curse.

This could be an interesting take and fits the gothic horror theme great (I can get behind it), but it's strictly not supported by the book, nor does it universally fit. Saidra d'Honaire, for example, wasn't suffering from hubris until after becoming a Darklord, so she'd still need to be fixed. Vladeska Drakov, too, didn't really commit any particular act of hubris before getting there, she was just a very bloody survivalist. Chakuna was a would-be savior pushed to ever more horrible lows, only ever wanting to defeat a monster to save her people. Ramya Vasavadan was sort of killed for not being arrogant enough. And of all the things wrong with Wilfred Godefroy, hubris certainly wasn't one of them.

The book also outright states that Darklords commit heinous, unforgivable evil acts, as per the second page of chapter 2- Corrupt Beyond Redemption.

This isn't to say you shouldn't run the Dark Powers as agents of retribution against hubris- on the contrary, that could be a very good narrative. But it's not what's in this book.

[Corsair14]

I am not a fan boy and I prefer the original. It was darker, kept its "problematic" issues, {Scrubbed}, and overall had more flavor. Not having a fear, horror, and madness is a shame. The new book now that I have had time to look through it is Ravenloft Light. Not a bad book by itself but not a patch on the original stuff. Therefore I continue to use the original material and as far as my group goes, the new book doesnt exist aside from some pretty maps I use here and there. As its supposed to be, my PCs dont even know they are in the domains of dread, just that they arent in Kansas anymore.

[Unoriginal]

Actually a Dark Domain where the people are basically just Skyrim NPCs would be a fun little area to explore for a session or two.

With the Dark Lord beibg the Dovakhin-equivalent. Someone capable of becoming the head of all the Guilds and a noble in all the town, making pacts with all the entities and beating up all the dragons, yet still have guards contemptuously ask if they're whinig about someone stealing their pastries.

[Witty Username]

I like the rules, races, and dark lord/dread domain concepts. I am less a fan of the provided dark lords, but I would probably make my own anyway.

I have a bucket list item to run a dread domain based on a disney movie with the dark lord being the villain of said movie. Probably Dark lord Gaston, play him up as a heroic friendly NPC and see if the players get the joke.

[Angelalex242]

Disney?

Gaston? Nah, man.

Judge Frollo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NP-RsRGzVo

[loki_ragnarock]

Have NPCs feel like a video game.

"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"
"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Barovia!"

I unironically think that would work.

"I like swords!"
"What the flip is going on here? There's a body in the street!"
"... I like swords!"
"What did you see?"
*hands shaking* "I... like swords!"
"What are you even on about? Just tell me what you saw!"
*tears pouring from the corner of their eye* "I like swords!"
*grabbing them by the shoulder* "What in Pelor's name is going on here!"
*break away, runs, shrieking into the distance* "I like swords! I like swords! I like swords!"

It's a little less Brian Clevinger-y, but I'd find it unsettling.

[Sigreid]

In CoS I don't think anything freaked the party out more than after they won and the majority of the populations just disappeared. Their clothes falling to the ground wherever they were when the party won.

[Ralanr]

In CoS I don't think anything freaked the party out more than after they won and the majority of the populations just disappeared. Their clothes falling to the ground wherever they were when the party won.

That's gotta be freaky.

Especially if you were born and raised there as someone with a soul. Suddenly all your friends, neighbors, family, well they don't exist.

Though given how many adventurers die in Ravenloft, and how souls can't really escape a dark domain, I imagine at a certain point, there are plenty of recycled adventurer souls. Oh my, that's actually a neat way to justify why you were born in the mists.

[Witty Username]

Disney?

Gaston? Nah, man.

Judge Frollo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NP-RsRGzVo

Unfortunately, I don't believe I am up to snuff to follow in the footsteps of Tony Jay.
I am picking up what you're putting down though.

[Sigreid]

That's gotta be freaky.

Especially if you were born and raised there as someone with a soul. Suddenly all your friends, neighbors, family, well they don't exist.

Though given how many adventurers die in Ravenloft, and how souls can't really escape a dark domain, I imagine at a certain point, there are plenty of recycled adventurer souls. Oh my, that's actually a neat way to justify why you were born in the mists.

My interpretation of the module is that the souls of the adventurers are trapped in the cemetery, forced to re-live their failure every night.

[Ralanr]

My interpretation of the module is that the souls of the adventurers are trapped in the cemetery, forced to re-live their failure every night.

I might be wrong. I haven't flipped through my Ravenloft book recently.

[Sigreid]

I might be wrong. I haven't flipped through my Ravenloft book recently.

I base my view on a certain nightly event. But as long as everyone knows that everyone in there is damned it works.