Pathfinder 1e, build optimization question: The melee sorcerer

[Aletios]

So I'm fairly new to PF1e tabletop, and been wondering if this build would survive transfering from CRPG to tabletop version of the game.
www[dot] neoseeker [dot] com/pathfinder-kingmaker/builds/Main_Character#Melee_Sorcerer

TL'DR for the build:
1 lvl of unchained monk, scaled fist. Get crane style + dodge. Take monk weapon for flurry (two attack at full BAB)
4 lvls of sorc, Acrobatics to 3 (at lvl) knowledge arcana - 5. Use fighting defensively from then on. Gives +4 dodge AC and only -2 to attacks. 4 lvls of sorc also gets you +1 nat armor, and 5 energy resistence of your choice.
Take 4 lvls for dragon disciple (+4 STR, +2 to nat armor. stacking with everything. 2/3 bab, 3/4 + to caster level)
At lvl 9 go full eldritch knight.

So, basically, pretty solid stuff. Gets you nice BAB, insane AC, and you're a full caster.




Now to tabletop:

GM allows only paizo's stuff.
We've got 20 point buy, 2 traits, 1 drawback (which gives 1 more trait), and GM let me pick another. So 4 traits in total.
Everyone also gets an extra feat on start (so humans start with whooping 3 feats).

I'm thinking about going aasimar (angelkin) to get the same stats as shown in the build.
Then using alt traits for getting bite attack earlier (Lost Promise).
Getting Truespeaker alt race trait to get 2 more languages (draconic for dragon disciple and one more).

For traits, I'm choosing magical knack (+2 to CL, up to char level).
Prince (+1 to diplomacy & intimidation, makes one of these a class skill).
Indomitable Faith (+1 to will saves)
On a side not, is "Cautious Warrior" trait one of the Paizo's? Looks pretty good for the build. Gives +1 dodge AC while fighting defensively.

First level will be unchained monk, Scaled fist.
Feats:
Dodge;
Crane style;
No idea. Extended spell maybe?
From lvl 1 to lvl 8 I'm planning on going with Monk weapons (flurry gets me a second attack at full BAB). From levle 9 and on, switching to a longsword for life, to get 1.5 STR bonus to attacks.
so weapon foci isn't the best choice at the moment.

LvL 3: Power attack? (not sure)
LvL 5: Martial weapons proficiency (for EK)
LvL 7: Weapon foci (long sword)
LvL 9: Crane wing +4 to AC against melee. Build gets +5 BaB at lvl 8)

Maybe I should go for Shatter Defenses build?
Any suggestions on feats would be appreciated.

As for spells, in my opinion the must have ones are:
1:Shield, Mage armor (get from bloodline)
2: Mirror image, Sense Vitals
3: haste

Can you recommend any other spells that would go well with the build? Or would be fun to use?

Over all, any I'd be more than interseted in any advice on how to improve the build.
Thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

You haven't mentioned what level you'll be playing at?

If it's low- to mid-level (anything up to level 12-13 or so) then the Magus class is going to be more effective at what you're trying to do here.

[Kurald Galain]

To give some more specific ideas,

Shatter Defenses is for rogues. If you want a build like that, you should consider a Magus with Frostbite, Rime Spell, and Enforcer. This means you inflict entangled, shaken, and fatigue with your melee attacks. That's a better debuff than Shatter Defenses, and it comes online earlier. Take a Cruel weapon to add sickened to the mix.

Note that Crane Wing requires a free hand, so you can't get 1.5 str bonus on your longsword.

On a build like this, you probably want Weapon Finesse and go dex-primary, to further max your AC.

However: note that the Magus can make a full attack each turn AND cast a spell. That means you can boost your AC further with Shield and Mirror Image and whatnot, while still attacking. Magus can also flurry with a longsword straight from level two (by using Spellstrike). The Magus can also match your armor class (there's an archetype that gives int to AC), and he gets his iterative and his 2nd/3rd/4th level spells one level earlier than the dragon disciple; as well as a few more bonus feats. The two builds are pretty much tied in terms of attack bonus, hit points, and saving throws; but Spell Combat gives you a huge action economy advantage, and as a melee caster it's hard to beat that.

[TheStranger]

Having played a Magus recently, I can second that suggestion. It’s a great gish class out of the box, and Spell Combat is amazing. Super fun to play, both versatile and powerful. I’m pretty sure there’s even a spontaneous casting archetype if you want to keep the Sorcerer feel. Check the guide in Kurald Galain’s signature - it really is great.

I know that’s not really what you asked for, but it’s probably a better way to gish in Pathfinder. In general, multiclassing for characters like this fits the 3.5 meta more than Pathfinder. Pathfinder has a few base classes that are already hybrid concepts and an archetype for pretty much everything, so 20 levels of a base class with the appropriate archetype tends to work great and come online sooner than a multiclassed build.

[Aletios]

You haven't mentioned what level you'll be playing at?

If it's low- to mid-level (anything up to level 12-13 or so) then the Magus class is going to be more effective at what you're trying to do here.

It's going to be a custom campaign, from lvl 1 to lvl 20. So I'm looking for something that will be decent throughout the game.

[Aletios]

To give some more specific ideas,

Shatter Defenses is for rogues. If you want a build like that, you should consider a Magus with Frostbite, Rime Spell, and Enforcer. This means you inflict entangled, shaken, and fatigue with your melee attacks. That's a better debuff than Shatter Defenses, and it comes online earlier. Take a Cruel weapon to add sickened to the mix.

Note that Crane Wing requires a free hand, so you can't get 1.5 str bonus on your longsword.

On a build like this, you probably want Weapon Finesse and go dex-primary, to further max your AC.

However: note that the Magus can make a full attack each turn AND cast a spell. That means you can boost your AC further with Shield and Mirror Image and whatnot, while still attacking. Magus can also flurry with a longsword straight from level two (by using Spellstrike). The Magus can also match your armor class (there's an archetype that gives int to AC), and he gets his iterative and his 2nd/3rd/4th level spells one level earlier than the dragon disciple; as well as a few more bonus feats. The two builds are pretty much tied in terms of attack bonus, hit points, and saving throws; but Spell Combat gives you a huge action economy advantage, and as a melee caster it's hard to beat that.

Got it. Shatter defenses is must-have in CRPG, but it looks like it works a bit different in the game and not that usefull. As well as outflank.

I was looking more for CHA-based class, since our face can be lacking in IRL persuasion skills :) and it might be a good thing to have another person being able to back him up, or take the lead.
Eldritch scion seems cool on a first sight, but the fact that I'll need to spend 2 point of arcane pool just to be able cast in combat for 2 round untill level 6 (or 8) makes this class whole lot less attractive, since it cripples my ability to use spell combat until essentially mid-levels.

Regarding Crane Wing: I might be wrong, but technically you can. You need to fight defensively while having one hand free. Since Fighting Defensively is more akin to status (lats untill the start of your next turn, like combat expertise), technically you can attack holding weapon in two hands, and then take one hand off your weapon. You still should have the status "fighting denefsively", and now that you have 1hand free, you also get +4 AC bonus.

I was thinking about getting weapon finess and slashing grace, but I don't think it will make real difference.
Right now I'm starting with following stats:
STR 18
DEX 15 (16 at lvl 4)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 7
CHA 16

With weapon finess I'd dump STR and start with 20 DEX. That would give me +3 AC right off the bat. That's good, if we're looking at the melee sorc build, that makes DD way less interesting option, since you don't really need STR bonus now. You still get additiona AC, but I can't help but feel that there are better otpion.
If we're considering magus, I'd have to get non-cha subsclass, since Eldritch Scion subclass really looks like it shoots itself in the leg, which means it will be a bit more difficult to stack AC.

Going Monk 1, Sorc 4, and DD 4 gives you +4 to STR, and +3 to AC
Which is effectively 23 STR at lvl 8 instead of 22(21, if starting with 19 to get more points into other stats) DEX. Which is essentialy pretty much the same AC, and same AB. DEX build will get more AC in the end, but is it really worth it? If I got everything right, with only my own buffs I should have 19AC at LvL 1(Base 16 (+2DEX, +3 CHA, +1 dodge, Fighting defensively +3).
30 AC at lvl 4 (fighting defensively will get you +4 at lvl 3 due to acrobatics, DEX will give you +3 at lvl 4, sorc will give you +1 nat armor. Shield + mage armor will give you a whooping +8 bonus).
At lvl 9th it should have 36 AC against melee, and 32 against everything else (due to DD nat armor bonus and crane wing). Haste can give you another +1 Dodge to ac, and mirror image gives you solid defence against crits.

Again I haven't played PF1e tabletop (mostly played 5e) so I'm not really sure how much AC a tank should have, but 36AC without magic items or other player's buffs doesn't seems that bad.

Another problem with DEX, is that my bite attack would become completely useless.

[Kurald Galain]

Eldritch scion seems cool on a first sight, but the fact that I'll need to spend 2 point of arcane pool just to be able cast in combat for 2 round untill level 6
One point per two rounds, and note that this also gives you a number of buffs for free (depending on bloodline). It's better than it sounds, unless your campaign has way more combats per day than normal.


I was thinking about getting weapon finess and slashing grace, but I don't think it will make real difference.
Oh, it does. First, Slashing Grace also requires a free hand. Second, if you're not going finesse, you should boost your strength at level 4 and 8.


that makes DD way less interesting option,
If your conclusion is that DD is actually not very good, then you are correct.


30 AC at lvl 4 (fighting defensively will get you +4 at lvl 3 due to acrobatics, DEX will give you +3 at lvl 4, sorc will give you +1 nat armor. Shield + mage armor will give you a whooping +8 bonus).
At lvl 9th it should have 36 AC against melee, and 32 against everything else (due to DD nat armor bonus and crane wing). Haste can give you another +1 Dodge to ac, and mirror image gives you solid defence against crits.
Bear in mind that as a DD, this requires two rounds of buffing (Shield + Mirror Image) before you can attack anyone; whereas as a Magus, it requires zero rounds of buffing before you can attack anyone.


36AC without magic items or other player's buffs doesn't seems that bad.
My experience is that most characters will have AC 22-25 at level twelve and that this is fine.
I'd say that you're way overinvested in defense, and that you should be looking more into mobility and damage output.


Another problem with DEX, is that my bite attack would become completely useless.
You cannot use a bite attack when flurrying.

[Gnaeus]

I don’t think DD is as bad as Kurald suggests. Magus is good, but if you plan to go to 20 and want those high level spells, DD can get you there.

Feat recommendations: favored prestige class and prestigious spellcaster. Personally I would stick with DD and take prestigious spellcaster two more times. Losing 3 levels of sorcerer advancement is pretty awful. But monk 1/sorcerer 4/DD 10 casting as a 14th level sorcerer has a lot to be said for it. Like being 2 spell levels ahead of magus, moving towards 3 at 19-20. If you aren’t aiming to maximize sorcerer and turn into a dragon, Kurald is correct, magus does sword swinging better.

[Kurald Galain]

I don’t think DD is as bad as Kurald suggests. Magus is good, but if you plan to go to 20 and want those high level spells, DD can get you there.
If you go to 20 and want those high level spells, not using DD will get you there faster :smallamused:

I mean, if you're aiming to maximize sorcerer, go sorcerer/20, and you'll have (e.g.) fourth-level spells at level 8, instead of level 11. I'd say that makes for a more fun character.

[Aletios]

One point per two rounds, and note that this also gives you a number of buffs for free (depending on bloodline). It's better than it sounds, unless your campaign has way more combats per day than normal.
True, but you only get the stuff while in blood rage. While being DD/sorc let's you get the benefits all the time. Plus, I'll have to juggle my arcane points between weapon and eldritch pool, which kinda sucks. Again, never played P1e in tabletop and not sure how many combats are there supossed to be, but it does seem limited as hell.



Second, if you're not going finesse, you should boost your strength at level 4 and 8.
That way I'd have to wait pretty long to even DEX score. Probably long enough to the point where it won't matter anymore



If your conclusion is that DD is actually not very good, then you are correct.
As more than 4 levels of investments it definitely doesn't worth it. But it still gives you a lot in 4 levels. If you're going for STR build, it gives you essentially 4 ASI, while keeping your spell & bloodline progression, and getting you +2 to AC on top of that. For DEX build it's not that good - true, but for STR it looks really strong.



Bear in mind that as a DD, this requires two rounds of buffing (Shield + Mirror Image) before you can attack anyone; whereas as a Magus, it requires zero rounds of buffing before you can attack anyone.
Don't you usually buff before combat? Plus, Mirror Image is more a safety net to negate crits. So it takes only 1 round. You still have a point, though.



My experience is that most characters will have AC 22-25 at level twelve and that this is fine.
I'd say that you're way overinvested in defense, and that you should be looking more into mobility and damage output.

Isn't that a bit low? I mean, CR12 enemies should have around +17 or +21 to attacks. Which makes even 36AC look not that good. With magic items you probably could get extra 6 point at that level (deflection, nat armor), but still if we're looking at 25ac without magic items, and 31ac with them - 50% chance to get hit looks pretty bad.

And I'm actually looking into mobility and damage. Since I'll have almost full spell progression, I'm thinking about covering some of that stuff with spells.

Btw, how does Arcane strike sounds? And does magical knack works for calculating CL for arcane strike?



You cannot use a bite attack when flurrying.
Thank you, didn't know that. It makes things a bit easier, since I was torn between bite and Aasimar's SLA. Guess now I don't really have a choice, huh.

[Aletios]

I don’t think DD is as bad as Kurald suggests. Magus is good, but if you plan to go to 20 and want those high level spells, DD can get you there.

Feat recommendations: favored prestige class and prestigious spellcaster. Personally I would stick with DD and take prestigious spellcaster two more times. Losing 3 levels of sorcerer advancement is pretty awful. But monk 1/sorcerer 4/DD 10 casting as a 14th level sorcerer has a lot to be said for it. Like being 2 spell levels ahead of magus, moving towards 3 at 19-20. If you aren’t aiming to maximize sorcerer and turn into a dragon, Kurald is correct, magus does sword swinging better.

Thank you!
prestigious spellcaster does look pretty good. DD10 is probably overkill, since it doesn't really give you any real benifits after lvl 4(at least, not enough benifits that you wouldn't be able to get from spells otherwise), and going Eldritch Knight you'll get better everything. But Prestigious Spellcaster looks like it can get you access to lvl 9 spells, which is pretty awesome.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're going for STR build, it gives you essentially 4 ASI, while keeping your spell & bloodline progression, and getting you +2 to AC on top of that.
Sure, but there are plenty of ways to get a bonus to hit or to AC that don't require level dips.

The main issue with DD is that if you're a blaster caster, you don't need a strength bonus; and if you're not a blaster caster, then you don't need draconic bloodline. I don't mean that it's bad or anything, but generally speaking actual class features are better than a boost to strength or AC.


Don't you usually buff before combat?
Yes, but often you don't know exactly when it'll happen. It depends on your GM of course, but in my experience you can't reliably have 1-minute-per-level buffs running before combat. Like, ideally you'd buff before you kick in the dungeon door, but in practice enemies hear that and react to it.


CR12 enemies should have around +17 or +21 to attacks.
They do. But the goal is not to be unharmed; the goal is to win. You can deal with that with Stoneskin, or debuffs, or combat healing, killing the enemy quickly, or other tactics. And it turns out that in practice (using printed Paizo adventures, or GMs taking their cue from that), AC 25 at level 12 is totally fine.

[TheStranger]

From experience, the utility (and occasional brokenness) of Spell Combat is easy to overlook but amazing in play. The biggest challenge with a gish is usually deciding when to cast and when to attack (and keeping both equally viable) because you can’t do both in one round. With a Magus you can, and your decision every round is just which spell to cast before/after you attack. It’s honestly amazing and I wouldn’t want to play a gish without it again.

[Aletios]

Sure, but there are plenty of ways to get a bonus to hit or to AC that don't require level dips.

The main issue with DD is that if you're a blaster caster, you don't need a strength bonus; and if you're not a blaster caster, then you don't need draconic bloodline. I don't mean that it's bad or anything, but generally speaking actual class features are better than a boost to strength or AC.


If I'm aiming to play a tank with good magic versatility, what would you suggest? A magus?

Plus, you don't actually loose anything on going DD aside from 1 CL.

I also did a bit of calculations:
A DEX magus would get 24 DEX by lvl 16. Melee socr could get 26 STR.
Magus would start more strongly on AC side, but at lvl 6 everything will even out. Plus, Sorc will have nat armor bonuses all the time, not only while he's in "rage".
Looking at saves, it's pretty clear that Magus would have way better saves, so there's that.
Magus gets only lvl 6 spells, while on the other hand, sorc can get to lvl 8 spells without any extra feats. Lvl 9 spells if adding prestige class and caster feats.
Damage-wise, I'm actually not sure. Didn't go into spells and spell combat yet, but it looks like if I'll go with Magus/scion, I won't be able to use most of metamagic feats because I'll have to cast for full round. I guess magus would win, since he will have an extra attack and a spell dmg to boot.

Anything I missed, or should take into considiration?

[Aletios]

From experience, the utility (and occasional brokenness) of Spell Combat is easy to overlook but amazing in play. The biggest challenge with a gish is usually deciding when to cast and when to attack (and keeping both equally viable) because you can’t do both in one round. With a Magus you can, and your decision every round is just which spell to cast before/after you attack. It’s honestly amazing and I wouldn’t want to play a gish without it again.

That sounds pretty cool, but how good magus spell list actually is for out-of-combat situations?

[Kurald Galain]

Anything I missed, or should take into considiration?
One thing: Magus can get 15-20 crit range on all his touch spells. Can you say "ouch"? :smallbiggrin:


That sounds pretty cool, but how good magus spell list actually is for out-of-combat situations?
For utility it's the second-best list in the game, after the wizard list. It's got the Silent Image line, Mount, almost every Polymorph spell, True Skill, Invis, Dispel, Wall spells, Dimdoor, Teleport, Assumed Likeness, Fly, Overland Flight, True Seeing; even a spell that temporarily gives you the feat of your choice. Basically all the classics are there, and you can use Spell Blending to pick up your favorite wizard spell that isn't on the list.

[Gnaeus]

If you go to 20 and want those high level spells, not using DD will get you there faster :smallamused:

I mean, if you're aiming to maximize sorcerer, go sorcerer/20, and you'll have (e.g.) fourth-level spells at level 8, instead of level 11. I'd say that makes for a more fun character.

If you are using prestigious spellcaster, you eliminate the levels without caster progression. So the only level you lose is your monk level at level 1.


Thank you!
prestigious spellcaster does look pretty good. DD10 is probably overkill, since it doesn't really give you any real benifits after lvl 4(at least, not enough benifits that you wouldn't be able to get from spells otherwise), and going Eldritch Knight you'll get better everything. But Prestigious Spellcaster looks like it can get you access to lvl 9 spells, which is pretty awesome.

Eldrich Knight is another lost caster level. That’s pretty huge. And you can’t fix it with prestigious spellcaster unless you want to take favored prestige class again. Never lose any caster level you don’t absolutely have to. You lose 1 for monk, and effectively another because of sorcerer delayed progression.

Comparing DD 5-10 versus eldrich knight 1-6.
DD costs you 2 feats, for prestigious spellcaster at 5(ECL9) and 9 (ECL 15)
You get 20 extra HP. (Better HD and bonus for +2 con)
2 bonus feats
+4/+2/+3 saves (includes bonus for +2 con)
3 extra spells known from advancing Draconic bloodline (Fear, spell resistance, form of the dragon 1)
15 extra skill points (from Int+2)
1d6 energy damage to bite
+1 NA
Permanent blindsense 60
Free dragon form 2/day
Energy resist 10 and 4 more NA (bloodline powers from Draconic bloodline at 9 and 15)
An extra use of breath weapon
Permanent 90 flight as an SU


Eldrich Knight 1-6 costs you the same 2 feats for prestigious spellcaster and favored PRC OR a caster level and 6 additional skill points
2 bonus feats
+3/+2/+2 saves (3 points worse)
2 extra BAB

That looks strictly worse to me


One thing: Magus can get 15-20 crit range on all his touch spells. Can you say "ouch"? :smallbiggrin:
.
But you still give up a huge chunk of casting to get there.
A magus 15 has 27 spells per day. 9 of level 4-5
A Sorcerer/Monk/DD 10 with prestigious spellcaster gets 45 spells per day. 24 are level 4-7. Any round the magus can realistically cast a first or second level touch spell and attack, the DD can throw out a level 4+ spell. And that doesn’t count the utility of permaflight, blindsense, etc or the 30 minutes a day you are a large dragon..

If you want to spend a lot of time swinging a sword, Magus has better DPR and action economy. If you want more and crunchier spells, DD/Sorcerer wins.

[TheStranger]

That sounds pretty cool, but how good magus spell list actually is for out-of-combat situations?

The Magus list is a more limited and combat-focused than the Wizard list, but there’s some multi-purpose illusion/polymorph stuff. Depending on what your out of combat needs are you might be okay. You can also get spells from the Wizard list with Magus arcana if there’s something specific you need.

[Kurald Galain]

Eldrich Knight is another lost caster level. That’s pretty huge. And you can’t fix it with prestigious spellcaster unless you want to take favored prestige class again.
You can't take Favored Prestige Class twice.


Personally I would stick with DD and take prestigious spellcaster two more times.
And the second time you take Prestigious Spellcaster, it only gives you +1 caster level; not +1 level of spellcasting. It's still a good feat, but personally I'd take pure sorc over sorc-with-DD-with-PS.


A magus 15 has 27 spells per day. 9 of level 4-5
Since this campaign starts at level 1, it would be more realistic to make a comparison at level 5 or maybe level 10 (and also, to add Spell Recall to the equation). If the sorcerer wins at a level past where the campaign ends, well, that'd be true but not useful.

(Magus 5 has up to ~13 spells per day if using Spell Recall, M1/sorc 4 has about 11)

[Gnaeus]

You can't take Favored Prestige Class twice

Maybe not. It’s bad anyway



And the second time you take Prestigious Spellcaster, it only gives you +1 caster level; not +1 level of spellcasting. It's still a good feat, but personally I'd take pure sorc over sorc-with-DD-with-PS.)

This is RAW vs RAI. Dev James Jacobs clarified it’s supposed to always provide spellcasting levels.



Since this campaign starts at level 1, it would be more realistic to make a comparison at level 5 or maybe level 10 (and also, to add Spell Recall to the equation). If the sorcerer wins at a level past where the campaign ends, well, that'd be true but not useful.

(Magus 5 has up to ~13 spells per day if using Spell Recall, M1/sorc 4 has about 11)

Op clarified 1-20. It would be equally realistic to show the difference between a dragon with 9th level spells and a magus with 6ths

[Kurald Galain]

Op clarified 1-20.
Shockingly, many campaigns that are intended to go to level 20 never actually get there, or anywhere near there :smallbiggrin:

That is why, for a game starting at level 1, high-level comparisons aren't very useful.

[Kitsuneymg]

Regarding DD. If all Paizo is allowed, just go for Esoteric/Eclectic training. I’d rather go paladin 2/dragon disciple 1/sor17 if I am doing that. Maybe toss in stargazer 10 if you want a higher bab.

[TotallyNotEvil]

The Sorc ends up more powerful, no questions asked.

But I'd second the Magus suggestion, especially starting at lv 1. It's incredibly fun to play, plenty powerful and works perfectly well nearly out of the gate.

Plenty of good archetypes, too.

Also, something like AC 30 by lv 4 should probably be mentioned to the GM. That's way, way outside the curve. A fullplate-and-towershield fighter is looking at, what, 23-24?

Better find out now if he is cool with it.

[Psyren]

And the second time you take Prestigious Spellcaster, it only gives you +1 caster level; not +1 level of spellcasting.

Actually, the lead dev confirmed (https://paizo.com/products/btpy9oo9/discuss&page=6?Pathfinder-Player-Companion-Paths-of-the-Righteous#283) that it is intended to give +1 spellcasting every time taken, not just the first time.

@OP: Magus is more straightforward and has a higher floor, but Monk/Sorc/DD has a higher ceiling. There is no wrong answer if you build correctly.

[TheStranger]

@OP: Magus is more straightforward and has a higher floor, but Monk/Sorc/DD has a higher ceiling. There is no wrong answer if you build correctly.

Monk/Sorc/DD has a high ceiling, but a lot of that is just because it’ll have high level spells. Which is great, as far as it goes. But if you have 8th or 9th level spells, casting one of them will generally be a better use of your time than hitting things with a sword. So in combat you’ll rarely feel like wading into melee like you want to is really the best move.

Whether that’s a problem is entirely up to you. If you’re the type of person who likes to optimize tactics, you may find yourself playing more as a caster who could theoretically go into melee but rarely getting to do it in practice. But there’s nothing forcing you to use optimal tactics, so whether that’s a problem is a matter of personality more than anything. You can also pick a lot of self-only buffs as spells known so that you need to go into melee to get use out of your casting. But personally it would be hard for me to go into melee rather than casting a spell that could turn the tide of the whole fight.

The thing that makes a Magus so fun is that the mechanics align perfectly with what most people really want to do. You cast spells while hitting things with a sword. You don’t have to pick, so there’s never a conflict between optimal and fun. Want to buff yourself or your party? Go for it, and then make a full attack too instead of waiting a round. Fighting one opponent, but feeling like a maximized fireball on some mooks would free up the Barbarian to charge the BBEG? No problem, drop the fireball then finish off the guy in front of you. With most gishes, every round you’re casting a spell, no matter how useful that spell is, is a round you’re not in melee. With a Magus you don’t have that problem.

Around mid levels, you can definitely start to feel like you’re falling behind in both raw casting power and raw combat power. But using your class features wisely gives a big boost in practice. You won’t hit as often as a full-BAB class - unless you use arcane accuracy. Second-level spells don’t seem great when a full caster is getting 4ths - but a scorching ray to the face followed by a full attack stays relevant for a long time. You can’t deal the same damage as a raging Barbarian - but adding Flaming/Frost/Shock to your weapon closes the gap, and channeling a shocking grasp or frostbite on top of that means you might come out on top some rounds.

The bottom line with a Magus is that you’ll never have the highest level spells or the best base to-hit or damage bonuses. But you have lots of tools to get the most out of what you do have, and you break the action economy just by existing. And balancing casting, combat, and judicious use of arcana and pool points is just really satisfying if you like the tactical combat side of the game.

One downside is that a Magus can eat up a lot of table time and hog the spotlight a bit because it feels almost like you take two turns. “I use a swift action to make my sword +4. And I cast glitterdust - the ogres need to save or be blinded. Oh, and I full attack the one in front of me. With an extra attack because I used hasted assault last turn.” It’s a lot of fun, but the players who can only cast a spell or attack on their turn might not be amused (though they’ll usually appreciate the blinded ogres). And the DM may start to roll his eyes at your never-ending turn. It’s the type of character that can feel broken pretty easily at a lower-powered table.

[Psyren]

Monk/Sorc/DD has a high ceiling, but a lot of that is just because it’ll have high level spells. Which is great, as far as it goes. But if you have 8th or 9th level spells, casting one of them will generally be a better use of your time than hitting things with a sword. So in combat you’ll rarely feel like wading into melee like you want to is really the best move.

Whether that’s a problem is entirely up to you. If you’re the type of person who likes to optimize tactics, you may find yourself playing more as a caster who could theoretically go into melee but rarely getting to do it in practice. But there’s nothing forcing you to use optimal tactics, so whether that’s a problem is a matter of personality more than anything. You can also pick a lot of self-only buffs as spells known so that you need to go into melee to get use out of your casting. But personally it would be hard for me to go into melee rather than casting a spell that could turn the tide of the whole fight.

I fail to see how things like Shapechange/FotD3, Spellbane, (Communal) Mind Blank or Foresight can't "turn the tide of a whole fight" :smallconfused: And they work very well as "cast and wade into melee" buffs.

[Gnaeus]

I fail to see how things like Shapechange/FotD3, Spellbane, (Communal) Mind Blank or Foresight can't "turn the tide of a whole fight" :smallconfused: And they work very well as "cast and wade into melee" buffs.

Or for that matter, you can just rely on the 10 levels of D12 hp and extra con and significant NA to just be less squishy when you cast the 9th level spells. The ability to play a little more aggressively while you sling good spells isn’t nothing.

Or, if you are really concerned with action economy and melee, the existence of high level slots let’s you do things like (quickened fireball, then full attack as a huge dragon) or even (Quickened fireball, planar bound lillend casts haste and maintains bardsong, then full attack as a huge dragon and a squad of giant skeletons). Magus is good at action economy, but full casters can play that game very effectively as well.

[Kurald Galain]

Or, if you are really concerned with action economy and melee, the existence of high level slots let’s you do things like (quickened fireball, then full attack as a huge dragon) or even (Quickened fireball, planar bound lillend casts haste and maintains bardsong, then full attack as a huge dragon and a squad of giant skeletons). Magus is good at action economy, but full casters can play that game very effectively as well.

Sure. The important difference is that a Magus does that from level one and a full caster does that at level sixteen. You're comparing 7th- and 8th-level spells to a 1st-level class feature.

[Psyren]

Sure. The important difference is that a Magus does that from level one and a full caster does that at level sixteen. You're comparing 7th- and 8th-level spells to a 1st-level class feature.

Yes yes, we get it, you love Magus. But ignoring all the benefits other builds can get you in a campaign that is explicitly going to 20 (and 7th-9th spells are a big benefit) is missing the forest for the trees.

[Gnaeus]

Sure. The important difference is that a Magus does that from level one and a full caster does that at level sixteen. You're comparing 7th- and 8th-level spells to a 1st-level class feature.

And it depends on which caster trick we’re using but certainly not 16. Assuming one level lost for monk, minionmancy really comes online at 9 and quicken spell at 11. A sorcerer/DD 11 has 27 spells level 1-4 compared to the magus 17, with most of that difference in third and 4th level slots, so could easily use all 4 of their 5th level spells as quickens, burn half a dozen on mid/long duration buffs like heroism and greater magic weapon, and still have more and higher level spells for use in combat or utility. Comparison not including the benefits of permanent blindsense or the breath weapon.

[Kurald Galain]

And it depends on which caster trick we’re using but certainly not 16.
The one you specified earlier was Form Of The Dragon III, so yeah, that means level 16 for a sorcerer.

[Gnaeus]

The one you specified earlier was Form Of The Dragon III, so yeah, that means level 16 for a sorcerer.

Hardly. Form of the dragon 3 isn’t the trick. It’s just the last in a series of forms. It has been turning into a dragon as a spell like since ECL 12, and utilizing combat forms since as early as 5 (although the low level Polymorph line spells are pretty much made obsolete by the claw/claw/unarmed strike routine which comes on line level 2). Admittedly, the magus can also use these spells, so the Sorcerer is only really better at them after level 10, EXCEPT of course that the sorcerer has enough spells per day to toss off pre combat buffs and still have plenty of available combat spells long before the magus can. So if the magus and sorcerer are both routinely throwing out a couple of monstrous physiques a day by level 7 the sorcerer is left with 15 combat spells to the Magus’ 9. It’s not an end of game advantage. It’s a more than 2/3 of the game advantage. You don’t need a huge in combat action advantage to get spells off when you have enough spells that your best buffs can be running when you open the door and still have slots to burn.

[TheStranger]

Hardly. Form of the dragon 3 isn’t the trick. It’s just the last in a series of forms. It has been turning into a dragon as a spell like since ECL 12, and utilizing combat forms since as early as 5 (although the low level Polymorph line spells are pretty much made obsolete by the claw/claw/unarmed strike routine which comes on line level 2). Admittedly, the magus can also use these spells, so the Sorcerer is only really better at them after level 10, EXCEPT of course that the sorcerer has enough spells per day to toss off pre combat buffs and still have plenty of available combat spells long before the magus can. So if the magus and sorcerer are both routinely throwing out a couple of monstrous physiques a day by level 7 the sorcerer is left with 15 combat spells to the Magus’ 9. It’s not an end of game advantage. It’s a more than 2/3 of the game advantage. You don’t need a huge in combat action advantage to get spells off when you have enough spells that your best buffs can be running when you open the door and still have slots to burn.
The Sorcerer is definitely a stronger caster than the Magus, and that generally means a higher power ceiling and more versatility overall. But when it comes to melee the Magus can cast all the same buffs and is generally buffing from a higher starting point. Plus the Magus has a lot of class features that work as swift action in-combat buffs and that the Sorcerer can’t match without burning spell slots and combat actions.

The Magus has a big combat action advantage that IMO the Sorcerer can’t quite make up. The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee. You can avoid needing to cast in combat by pre-buffing, but the Magus can do that too. And spell combat also lets the Magus throw out short-term buffs, party buffs, debuffs, AoE effects, etc. in combat while still engaging in melee.

No question the Sorcerer is a stronger caster. Full casters are better at magic than partial casters. And with a good buff routine the Sorcerer can be as strong in melee as the Magus (I don’t think stronger, except possibly at the highest levels because 9th level spells are like that). But IMO the Magus is a better *melee caster* than the Sorcerer because of the built-in synergy between combat and casting.

[Psyren]

The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day.

Rods exist, and no sorcerer needs to quicken all their spells (long-term buffs exist too, as do contingencies, Time Stop etc.)


The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee.

Any spell on his list, which is worse than the Sorcerer's.


I enjoy Magus too, but the answer to the question "EK or Magus?" is not merely about which one feels more like a "melee caster." The answer relies on other questions, such as what concept does the OP have for the character, what's the expected power level of the campaign, and who else is in the party.

[Gnaeus]

The Magus has a big combat action advantage that IMO the Sorcerer can’t quite make up. The Sorcerer can quicken spells, but not his highest-level spells and not all his spells for the day. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee. You can avoid needing to cast in combat by pre-buffing, but the Magus can do that too. And spell combat also lets the Magus throw out short-term buffs, party buffs, debuffs, AoE effects, etc. in combat while still engaging in melee.

Except as mentioned that
1: the sorcerer has the spell slots to burn in pre combat buffing. If the magus and sorcerer both cast 10 buffs/day at 7, the sorcerer is still a caster and the magus is a bad fighter.
2. Minionmancy is a thing for high tier casters. The sorcerer can have skeletons with a better attack routine than the sorcerer, AND a bound minion casting spells and spell likes, AND quicken spells, and melee all in the same round. By level 9-11 the sorcerer smashes the Magus’ action economy advantage and never looks back.


. The Magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee.


Any spell on his list, which is worse than the Sorcerer's.

The magus can cast any spell with spell combat as often as he needs to cast in melee until he runs out of spells. Which at the levels Kurald wants to talk about (because the higher the level the better the sorcerer looks) is a bit less than 2 combats per day.


. Plus the Magus has a lot of class features that work as swift action in-combat buffs and that the Sorcerer can’t match without burning spell slots and combat actions.
Really? Because at level 2 the sorcerer is using a Swift to activate 2 claw attacks on top of his monk unarmed strike. At level 2 the Magus is using a Swift to get a +1 enhancement. The sorcerer should outdamage the magus at most levels on any round the magus isn’t channeling a touch spell.

And let’s not forget all the permanent buffs. Flight. Blindsense. Energy resistance. Buffs to strength, con, NA. The magus is using his Swift actions to catch up.

[TheStranger]

Except as mentioned that
1: the sorcerer has the spell slots to burn in pre combat buffing. If the magus and sorcerer both cast 10 buffs/day at 7, the sorcerer is still a caster and the magus is a bad fighter.
2. Minionmancy is a thing for high tier casters. The sorcerer can have skeletons with a better attack routine than the sorcerer, AND a bound minion casting spells and spell likes, AND quicken spells, and melee all in the same round. By level 9-11 the sorcerer smashes the Magus’ action economy advantage and never looks back.

IME the Magus has plenty of spell slots by mid levels for all but the longest adventuring days. And several abilities that use pool points to buff in combat, which saves on spell slots as well. Plus the ability to use pool points to restore spell slots. The Sorcerer has an advantage here, but the Magus has what he needs to keep his schtick going through a normal day’s worth of encounters.

Minionmancy is absolutely a thing. But at that point you’re dominating combat by being a high level caster, not by being a melee caster. Which is fine if that’s your goal. So I concede your point about effectiveness via minionmancy, but it doesn’t satisfy my desire to play a gish character. YMMV, of course.

The Magus spell list has most of the combat-related spells from the Sorcerer list, but I agree it’s not as broad. No debate that nine levels of casting from the best list in the game is better than six from a limited list, that goes without saying. But the Magus list is pretty good and if you really need a spell from the Sorcerer list you can get it.

In any case, I think Psyren has the right of it - you’re not right or wrong to play a Magus or a Sorc/DD, it’s just a matter of personal preference and I can only speak to my own. For raw casting power and versatility I’d take the Sorcerer by a mile. For buffing and wading into melee I’d lean Magus at most levels but it’s close enough that by high levels a Sorcerer who’s specced for it probably does some things better. For overall power level, I actually agree that the Sorcerer has an edge, but IMO it’s closer than you make it out to be, and that’s mostly what I’m arguing for. But for just generally feeling like a spell-slinging, sword-swinging bada**, I’ll take the Magus.

[Gnaeus]

IME the Magus has plenty of spell slots by mid levels for all but the longest adventuring days. And several abilities that use pool points to buff in combat, which saves on spell slots as well. Plus the ability to use pool points to restore spell slots. The Sorcerer has an advantage here, but the Magus has what he needs to keep his schtick going through a normal day’s worth of encounters.

IME it doesn’t. So since our anecdotal evidence cancels out, I guess we need math. Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights), the magus doesn’t have the ability to keep his schtick going until level 10. Assuming that he is using spell recall at 10 to recover a spell. And assuming that he spends 0 slots on utility or pre-buffing. And assuming that you really want to be relying on first level spells for your last combat of the day at 10th level.



Minionmancy is absolutely a thing. But at that point you’re dominating combat by being a high level caster, not by being a melee caster. Which is fine if that’s your goal. So I concede your point about effectiveness via minionmancy, but it doesn’t satisfy my desire to play a gish character. YMMV, of course.

This is using the non-standard definition of Gish as meaning “a spellcaster who doesn’t use good spells”as opposed to “a spellcaster who regularly enters melee.” Because the presence of my pet lillend enhances, not reduces, the ability of the dragon form sorcerer to eat someone’s face

[Kurald Galain]

Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights),
That's excessive. Come now, if your players know what they're doing then the average combat doesn't last four rounds. If you're playing adventure paths (or any GM taking inspiration from those), then a more reasonable count is 10-12 rounds of combat per day.

[Psyren]

I can totally understand the desire for a gish character to not feel like they need to summon/bind minions. But even without conjuring backup I think a Sorc/DD can be on par with a Magus economy-wise in practice, and of course well exceed them in terms of both utility and raw firepower for the party. Spell Combat is the most straightforward way of maximizing your actions, but it's far from the only one, and what you gain by giving it up in this case can be well worth it in a high-level campaign imo.

(Also - there's action economy and there's action economy. If you spend your turn feared or confused or fascinated for instance, or just plain dead because they got you instead of your astral projection, your action economy has dropped to zero :smalltongue:)

[TheStranger]

IME it doesn’t. So since our anecdotal evidence cancels out, I guess we need math. Assuming 4, 5 round fights per day (or 5, 4 round fights), the magus doesn’t have the ability to keep his schtick going until level 10. Assuming that he is using spell recall at 10 to recover a spell. And assuming that he spends 0 slots on utility or pre-buffing. And assuming that you really want to be relying on first level spells for your last combat of the day at 10th level.



This is using the non-standard definition of Gish as meaning “a spellcaster who doesn’t use good spells”as opposed to “a spellcaster who regularly enters melee.” Because the presence of my pet lillend enhances, not reduces, the ability of the dragon form sorcerer to eat someone’s face

If you have 4 5-round fights, that doesn’t mean you need to cast 20 spells. My general approach was to nova the first couple rounds of most combats then conserve spell slots once the fight is pretty much decided. Also, bonus spells are a thing (for both classes, obviously) and give you a few extra spell slots to work with. And there are a couple spells, like frostbite, that give you a few rounds worth of touch attacks to deliver with your weapon if you don’t want to cast a spell every round.

There’s definitely a level range where the Magus needs to ration his spells and pool points and can’t have all the fun all the time, but it’s not as bad as you make it out to be.

As I said, YMMV. If minionmancy scratches your melee caster itch, more power to you.


I can totally understand the desire for a gish character to not feel like they need to summon/bind minions. But even without conjuring backup I think a Sorc/DD can be on par with a Magus economy-wise in practice, and of course well exceed them in terms of both utility and raw firepower for the party. Spell Combat is the most straightforward way of maximizing your actions, but it's far from the only one, and what you gain by giving it up in this case can be well worth it in a high-level campaign imo.

(Also - there's action economy and there's action economy. If you spend your turn feared or confused or fascinated for instance, or just plain dead because they got you instead of your astral projection, your action economy has dropped to zero :smalltongue:)
I’ll agree that the higher the levels get, the more options a full caster has. By level 20, a straight Sorcerer is probably better in melee (and more powerful otherwise) than a Magus because high level spells are just that good. But over levels 1-20, I don’t believe that a Sorc/DD will consistently outshine a Magus. Ultimately it comes down to preferred playstyle though, because both characters will be very effective if built well.

[Gnaeus]

That's excessive. Come now, if your players know what they're doing then the average combat doesn't last four rounds. If you're playing adventure paths (or any GM taking inspiration from those), then a more reasonable count is 10-12 rounds of combat per day.

If you are playing on easy mode, pretty much anything works. If you have a DM who likes challenging combat and doesn’t cater particularly to caster supremacy, there’s no guarantee 20 will get you there. My level 2 group is past 12 rounds of combat, have just started fight 3, and haven’t seen the expected boss yet (fight 1 was half a dozen gestalt hell hound/blink dogs with a Barbarian boss using some kind of incarna tricks and 2 involved swarms). Exploring an enemy base (a not unlikely scenario) with a timetable means you can’t quit after 1 minute of combat. Really, a 12 round day in most APs means every single bit of this debate is pointless and the only reasonable mechanical argument against either character is that you will floorstomp the monsters so excessively that there’s no point rolling dice.


If you have 4 5-round fights, that doesn’t mean you need to cast 20 spells. My general approach was to nova the first couple rounds of most combats then conserve spell slots once the fight is pretty much decided. Also, bonus spells are a thing (for both classes, obviously) and give you a few extra spell slots to work with. And there are a couple spells, like frostbite, that give you a few rounds worth of touch attacks to deliver with your weapon if you don’t want to cast a spell every round..

My calculations at every point this thread have included one bonus spell/level for both classes. Without that, you don’t get there at 10.

So your general approach is to be a gish for the first couple of rounds every combat and then be a 3/4 bab fighter with less feats. Noted. And the statement about how you can full attack and cast every round is disproven hard.

[TheStranger]

If you are playing on easy mode, pretty much anything works. If you have a DM who likes challenging combat and doesn’t cater particularly to caster supremacy, there’s no guarantee 20 will get you there. My level 2 group is past 12 rounds of combat, have just started fight 3, and haven’t seen the expected boss yet (fight 1 was half a dozen gestalt hell hound/blink dogs with a Barbarian boss using some kind of incarna tricks and 2 involved swarms). Exploring an enemy base (a not unlikely scenario) with a timetable means you can’t quit after 1 minute of combat. Really, a 12 round day in most APs means every single bit of this debate is pointless and the only reasonable mechanical argument against either character is that you will floorstomp the monsters so excessively that there’s no point rolling dice.



My calculations at every point this thread have included one bonus spell/level for both classes. Without that, you don’t get there at 10.

So your general approach is to be a gish for the first couple of rounds every combat and then be a 3/4 bab fighter with less feats. Noted. And the statement about how you can full attack and cast every round is disproven hard.

We’re not playing on easy mode, your table is literally off the charts with difficulty. Assuming a gestalt blink dog/ hellhound is at least the same CR 3 as a hellhound and the Barbarian was level 4 or so, that’s an incredibly challenging combat for 2nd level characters - looks like a CR of 9, which is beyond what a 2nd level party is generally assumed to be facing. If that’s what your group likes, great, but it’s not the norm.

My general approach is to not waste limited resources mopping up in a combat that’s functionally over. I’ve been able to use spell combat as needed throughout the day from mid levels onward.

But honestly, it looks like you’re at such a high-op table that we’re just playing different games. You have your fun, I’ll have mine.

[Gnaeus]

We’re not playing on easy mode, your table is literally off the charts with difficulty..

If your standard is AP difficulty, you are definitely playing on easy mode. They are designed for S&B fighter, Healbot cleric, fireball wizard. No build reasonably discussed on a forum, certainly none discussed here, would have the faintest difficulty. (With rare exceptions. Iron Gods isn’t easy for the entirely unoptimized)

Even then, 10-12 round combat days seem pretty ludicrous to me unless you are regularly one-shotting encounters. All the ones I’ve been in have things like “here’s a house full of ogre encounters” or “explore this island on a timetable before your ship leaves you” or “here’s a giant multi-level dungeon to explore with a missing person to rescue that some party members care a lot about”. Not that they are generally very difficult (after maxing everything’s hp and rebuilding the mobs with better feats). But I don’t see 6-7 combat days as at all unlikely even for entirely unoptimized groups.

[Psyren]

I’ll agree that the higher the levels get, the more options a full caster has. By level 20, a straight Sorcerer is probably better in melee (and more powerful otherwise) than a Magus because high level spells are just that good. But over levels 1-20, I don’t believe that a Sorc/DD will consistently outshine a Magus. Ultimately it comes down to preferred playstyle though, because both characters will be very effective if built well.

I think the gap will start appearing long before 20. Say, 14, when the Sorc/DD (with PrS) gets 7th-level spells. That is the beginning of the "high level" tier, but in a campaign that is going to 20 you can expect to be 14+ long enough for it to matter. This gives you luminaries like Greater Polymorph/Elemental Body IV, Greater Teleport, Spell Turning, and Limited Wish to go along with more uses of the goodies you got last level like Globe of Invulnerability or Greater Dispel Magic, the latter of which the Magus won't get until 18.

[Endarire]

What about respeccing/rebuilding your character midway through the game, like level 12?

[Aletios]

If you are using prestigious spellcaster, you eliminate the levels without caster progression. So the only level you lose is your monk level at level 1.



Eldrich Knight is another lost caster level. That’s pretty huge. And you can’t fix it with prestigious spellcaster unless you want to take favored prestige class again. Never lose any caster level you don’t absolutely have to. You lose 1 for monk, and effectively another because of sorcerer delayed progression.

Comparing DD 5-10 versus eldrich knight 1-6.
DD costs you 2 feats, for prestigious spellcaster at 5(ECL9) and 9 (ECL 15)
You get 20 extra HP. (Better HD and bonus for +2 con)
2 bonus feats
+4/+2/+3 saves (includes bonus for +2 con)
3 extra spells known from advancing Draconic bloodline (Fear, spell resistance, form of the dragon 1)
15 extra skill points (from Int+2)
1d6 energy damage to bite
+1 NA
Permanent blindsense 60
Free dragon form 2/day
Energy resist 10 and 4 more NA (bloodline powers from Draconic bloodline at 9 and 15)
An extra use of breath weapon
Permanent 90 flight as an SU


Eldrich Knight 1-6 costs you the same 2 feats for prestigious spellcaster and favored PRC OR a caster level and 6 additional skill points
2 bonus feats
+3/+2/+2 saves (3 points worse)
2 extra BAB

That looks strictly worse to me


I can live with another CL lost. And DD getting more HP and con sounds great, but not that important, since I do plan to have enough AC to not get hit. Blindsense doesn't look that good at all. Honestly, it actually looks useless.
Dragon form you can get from spells if you want
Plus, I was planning on getting wings from Aasimar's racials. Free wings are nice, but pretty late. While, on other side, wings at lvl 10 looks much more fun.

But I just noticed a flaw in my plan:
Martial proficiency feat gives you proficiency only with 1 weapon, not all of them. Is there a way to get the proficiency without multiclassing into, say, fighter or going for old monk (sohei/Scaled fist) instead of unchained?

[Kitsuneymg]

But I just noticed a flaw in my plan:
Martial proficiency feat gives you proficiency only with 1 weapon, not all of them. Is there a way to get the proficiency without multiclassing into, say, fighter or going for old monk (sohei/Scaled fist) instead of unchained?

Play a Ganzi and select that option for your oddity.