Large new group help

[chiefwaha]

Hello.

I'm starting a game with experienced players, but all except one are new to 5e. There is going to be 8 players. I've DMed a couple of 5e games and did fine, but nothing of this size.

Any advice for tips to help new players acclimate quickly, or to keep such a large game from bogging down during things like combat, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Splitting the group isn't really an option.

[heavyfuel]

Any advice for tips [...] to keep such a large game from bogging down.

Yeah. Split the group.

I mean it. Having a large group is usually pretty bad for everyone involved.

Unless you get 8 players who all have a lot of free time on their hands AND who are all super into everyone else's PC as much as they are into their own PC, it's going to be a bad experience.

First of all, logistics. Getting 9 people to agree on a day of the week to sit down and play for 4 hours isn't easy to do once, and it's extremely difficult to do on the consistent basis that D&D requires. And you adventures are going to take considerably longer because 8 players aren't as effective with their available time as fewer players. Which leads to my next points.

Combat is going to take forever regardless of how many tips people give you. Because of Action Economy, you'll need a very high number of enemy NPCs every combat. While 1 NPC can be a tough fight for 2 Players, this does not mean that 4 NPCs can be a tough fight for 8 Players. Players will gang up and soon that fight is going to 2v8. So, for 8 players, you need probably 6 enemies in the least. That's 13 turns between an individual's turn. If every turn takes 30 seconds (which is unlikely) then after someone plays, they have to wait around for 7 minutes of nothing before playing for another 30 seconds. People will lose focus, and turns will take longer, which means people will lose even more focus and it's a vicious cycle.

Roleplay isn't safe either. Let's say someone wants to do some solo roleplaying because that's how people are. You don't want to do everything with your friends all the time. Most parties have a common goal, but individual PCs have their individual goals as well. If you do a 10 minute roleplay session focusing on each character, you just let most players doing nothing for over an hour. You will inevitably end up with players who just don't care about their character because they just want to move on from all this talk!

It's a sad reality, but it's reality nonetheless.

Unless you get a group that magically works in regards to focus and logistics, everything will be bogged down.

Split the group. Make 2 groups of 4 or even 3 groups of 2-3-3. It will be better for everyone

[Christew]

Yeah. Split the group.
Seconded. The default assumption of the game is a party of four. You can stretch this a bit without difficulty, but eight is excessive.

You can conceivably accommodate a party that size, but the DM lift is going to be significant. Splitting will be easier for you and more fun for the players.

[Ryton]

I've never run with a group that big, but I definitely recommend having a note with all of their passive perceptions on it. Let them know you'll be doing this, but whenever you need perception from the group, call on a character that seems the most appropriate (people in front, people in back, or possibly just a random character or two), then consult the passives list for everyone else. Getting results from 8 players, most of them new to 5e, at the same time would be a mess.

For combat, I highly recommend before each player's turn, let the player whose turn will be next know that they're on deck so they can start figuring out what they're doing on their turn in advance. Maybe even ask for verbal confirmation from the player on deck. For example, if initiative results are
1) Player A
2) Player B
3) Monster 1
4) Player C
let player B know they're on deck before player A goes. Let player C know they're on deck before B goes, even though technically the monster 1 goes before them. It helps a lot to not get to the wizards turn, only to have them say "Oh, it's my turn? Let me check my prepared spells again..."

[Dienekes]

Well during this fine pandemic I also had the pleasure of doing for a group of new players and also 8 of them.

And honestly, I didn’t think it was that bad. My suggestions for how to make things go fast were

1) make certain everyone knew they needed to have their action prepared. At first I was more lenient, as everyone was getting to know how to play. But over time I generally wrangled them down to only a minute per turn.

2) for enemies I essentially cheated on Initiative order to make it almost always have a fairly even distribution of enemy to player actions.

3) throw “legendary” creatures at them earlier and possibly in groups. And by this I mean creatures with legendary actions. I pretty much homebrewed a bunch of my own. I also kept the legendary action sequences regimented in the Initiative order, which is not correct but keeps things going.

4) battlefields should change up more often. Tactical choices are the heart of D&D combat, in a small group of 4 or so. Having the combat scenario change the necessary tactics once in 4 rounds of combat works. In an 8 man group I found 2 or 3 times worked better. Times so different players have their turn come up next so they get first opportunity to respond to these changing scenarios.

And other than that. Let them argue. More players mean more arguments about what the party should be doing. Take the time spent for that to adjust your campaign plans accordingly.

And of course, make certain all of them are engaged. In a smaller party I try very hard to make certain that every player gets a time in the spotlight every game. Not always successfully but I try. In an 8 person party I have managed it, but much less often. But if a player didn’t get spotlight in one session, I take it as my duty to try very hard to make certain the spotlight is on them for a bit the next session.

I should also point out that everyone I played with were my brother’s friends. So they all knew each other and had great rapport. So their personalities already gelled. And though they argued a lot. They did so respectfully. Or more accurately, completely disrespectfully but in the way friends get away with.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah. Split the group.

I mean it. Having a large group is usually pretty bad for everyone involved.

Thirded.

7 people is the biggest number I've ever DMed, all of them experienced RPG players, and it was barely manageable.

Two 4 persons group is way better for all involved, in particular the DM.

[da newt]

If all the Players are cool with the idea that each of them get only ~10% of the spotlight (bad guys get some too), and that things will be a bit slow at times, then an 8 person party can be just fine, and all you really have to worry about is balancing combat.

Balancing combat isn't easy with 8 PCs. Action economy makes a big party very capable as a group, but an individual PC quite vulnerable to anything that nears challenging for the party (whether one BBEG or a bunch of littles who can use gang tactics), so things are inherently swingy.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello.

I'm starting a game with experienced players, but all except one are new to 5e. There is going to be 8 players. I've DMed a couple of 5e games and did fine, but nothing of this size.

Any advice for tips to help new players acclimate quickly, or to keep such a large game from bogging down during things like combat, would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. I am currently DMing a game with 8 players. It sort of works but it's not quick.
If all of your players are OK with a gentle pace of play, you'll be fine.
One rule, though, in combat, that I have to use for big groups.

a. Pay Attention To What's Going On as others take their turn.
b. Have your decision made, or almost made, before your turn comes up in initiative order.
c. When I call on you, you may ask up to two questions in re where or what, then you decide what to do.
d. If you can't make a decision, you dodge, and I go to the next player.

If I don't do that, combat is unbearably long.

Consider instituting a "caller" role, and have it rotate from player to player, in non combat times. That's an old school thing we used to do that handled large groups well enough.

Otherwise, split the group.

[chiefwaha]

Well during this fine pandemic I also had the pleasure of doing for a group of new players and also 8 of them.

And honestly, I didn’t think it was that bad. My suggestions for how to make things go fast were

1) make certain everyone knew they needed to have their action prepared. At first I was more lenient, as everyone was getting to know how to play. But over time I generally wrangled them down to only a minute per turn.

2) for enemies I essentially cheated on Initiative order to make it almost always have a fairly even distribution of enemy to player actions.

3) throw “legendary” creatures at them earlier and possibly in groups. And by this I mean creatures with legendary actions. I pretty much homebrewed a bunch of my own. I also kept the legendary action sequences regimented in the Initiative order, which is not correct but keeps things going.

4) battlefields should change up more often. Tactical choices are the heart of D&D combat, in a small group of 4 or so. Having the combat scenario change the necessary tactics once in 4 rounds of combat works. In an 8 man group I found 2 or 3 times worked better. Times so different players have their turn come up next so they get first opportunity to respond to these changing scenarios.

And other than that. Let them argue. More players mean more arguments about what the party should be doing. Take the time spent for that to adjust your campaign plans accordingly.

And of course, make certain all of them are engaged. In a smaller party I try very hard to make certain that every player gets a time in the spotlight every game. Not always successfully but I try. In an 8 person party I have managed it, but much less often. But if a player didn’t get spotlight in one session, I take it as my duty to try very hard to make certain the spotlight is on them for a bit the next session.

I should also point out that everyone I played with were my brother’s friends. So they all knew each other and had great rapport. So their personalities already gelled. And though they argued a lot. They did so respectfully. Or more accurately, completely disrespectfully but in the way friends get away with.

Thank you for the response. Engagement is definitely the one I'm worried about most, combat length is the other, but we're kind of already used to long combats.

Splitting the party isn't really an option unfortunately, the reason the group is so big is it's friends and family I've been playing with 30ish years(typing that made me feel old... :smallannoyed:)and people enjoy the group as much as the game.

[Bobthewizard]

With new players, I wouldn't worry about making tactically challenging fights. You want interesting fights, not difficult ones. Let them learn the 5e rules.

I would make combats of enemies with high to hit and damage but with low AC and HP. So they know if they don't take out the enemy in the first round, there's a good chance someone might drop. But they'll start dropping enemies quickly. It makes the combat more fun for a large group since they can see tangible results.

You could also add some elements to encourage them pay attention to the other characters. A kill score contest could be fun for a large group but will turn them into murder hobos. Or maybe inspiration points they can only use on other characters.

[Christew]

With new players, I wouldn't worry about making tactically challenging fights. You want interesting fights, not difficult ones. Let them learn the 5e rules.
Granted, they are experienced players -- just new to 5e. An extended session zero to get comfortable with the rules/character abilities would probably go a long way and not be too huge a lift since 5e is simplified compared to other editions.

When our group transitioned over, the breaking of engrained habits from 3/3.5e was the biggest hurdle to getting things running smoothly.

Congrats on having such a close and long running group! Age sometimes has its benefits 😄

[J-H]

Get some 3x5 cards, cut them into strips, and then fold them to make little triangle "hats" to sit on your DM screen to show initiative for the PCs and enemy groups. Include one for "20" also. If you're running a monster with Legendaries, add separate counters for those.
Write down AC, Perception, and Insight modifiers on your side of the hats.

Use a map/grid. People will need help keeping track of things.

Consider a "no two people with the same subclass" rule.

Bump monster HP substantially, especially for "boss" monsters. Don't be afraid to deal more damage, since there are more people to stabilize a downed ally.

Use RANDBETWEEN and Excel to pre-roll a bunch of perception, insight, and investigation checks for everyone on one piece of paper.

Tell people to roll all their dice at once instead of "attack, then damage". Make sure everyone has enough dice to do this.
There's someone out there selling a D&D-specific "bag of appropriate dice counts" with like 8d6, 2d20, 2d12, etc. I can dig this up if someone needs the link.

Use several papers in front of you for most relevant information instead of trying to alt-tab through a bunch of different windows to find things.

[loki_ragnarock]

"Rexar the Barbarian you're on deck, Pluton the Magician make ready, Frederick T. Fighter prepare."


People are going to drift a little when there's that many of them. Simply prompting them three deep jolts them out of whatever their drifting towards, makes them think about what they're going to do, and then execute it on their turn. Ideally, they are rolling all their dice and crunching all their numbers while they are making ready and the camera isn't on them, so that they can just say what they're doing when they are on deck. The people up for preparation can start conceiving what they want to do; look up spells, confirm abilities, start thinking about fiddling with area of effect.

Keeping it three deep in 8 people has two effects.
1. It speeds things up.
2. It adds urgency.

Point two is the more important one in alot of ways; there's still going to be drift, but generating that sense of urgency means that the people who aren't in the set of three are still going to pay more attention. And people paying attention keeps things moving better than just about anything.