[5E] Swashbuckler / Genielock - Tier 3 Optimization

[Shrieve]

Hi there! Looking for a little help on where to take my Sunday night character moving forward. First some quick context... We've been playing a year and a half, starting at level 2. The campaign has been a balanced mix of exploration (dungeons and overland), grid-based combat, social encounters/political intrigue, and party roleplay. It's been great.

Present:

Last week capped off my character's personal story arc in a very satisfying, unexpected way (for both the DM and I), and the party hit level 9. I originally thought I'd be converting my warlock levels into rogue or battlemaster considering the direction the roleplay was going. But the dice had another thing planned when my character challenged her patron to a 1on1 duel, and won. (this wasn't DM fiat either, we play on foundry and I dodged something like 7 attacks and spells, plus landed a few lucky crits. My final hp was 6 and the djinni was -1 on my last turn).



Character:

Race: Eladrin
Classes: Swashbuckler Rogue 3 / Genie Warlock 5
Stats: STR (10) / DEX (18) / CON (14) / INT (10) / WIS (8) / CHA (16)
Skills: Acrobatics (E), Athletics, Insight, Investigation, Perception, Persuasion (E), Stealth
Genie: Djinni (character is from Zakhara, since I'm going for a sinbad-style corsair)
Pact:Chain (imp reflavored as a sand mephit)
Invocations: Investment of the Chain Master, Misty Visions, Voice of the Chain Master
Cantrips: Booming Blade, Eldritch Blast (reflavored as air bender blasts), Lightning Lure
Spells: Armor of Zakhara (agathys reflavored as magical slashing sand), Invisibility, Lightning Blade (self-explanatory shadow blade retheme), Major Image, Thunderwave, Thunder Step
Magic Items: Pirate's Charm (grants Adv on persuasion checks & know where the nearest booze is within a mile), Fire Resistant Studded Leather +1, Boots of the Winterlands (everywhere is so damn cold compared to home), Longsword +1 with finesse (acquired after the patron fight. has 5 charges for casting Heroism, Wind Wall, a reaction similar to battlemaster riposte, or a reaction similar to monk missile parry)


Playstyle:

In general combat I stick to booming blade attacks with swashbuckler disengage, mixed in with my familiar's help adv and the investment attack depending upon the target. 1 spell slot is usually reserved for Armor, with the other being used for Lightning Blade (for high HP targets) or Thunderwave (for groups). Out of combat I have a ton of utility between Invisibility, Acrobatics, Stealth, Chain Familiar, Fey Step, and both image spells (or as she calls them, mirages). Persuasion is around when I need it, and my Insight is serviceable (yes, I should have picked 8 STR instead of WIS, but look, my girl is naïve as hell).


Problem:

My issue is that after this level-up, I'm unsure of how to proceed with my character. The rest of the party consists of a Forge Cleric, Dreams Druid, Arcane Trickster Rogue, Hexblade Warlock, and Divination Wizard. The Hexblade is looking to become a tougher frontliner with some Fighter lvls.

Warlock 6 feels like a no-brainer for that non-concentration flight. As to the new spell, maybe Tongues for some additional utility? After that, I'm torn in quite a few directions. The campaign is supposed to go till something like level 16ish, so I've got a 5-7 levels to play with. I've brought solid damage to the group, and presented a lot of utility, but I'm a little worried about that falling off as we hit 10+. Also more and more spellcasters and high hit rate attackers are appearing, and I'm a little worried that it'll become easier and easier to take me out of the fight.


Options:

One thing to note: Half-Feats are potentially on the table as we have +1 stat tattoo access.
Warlock 7 -> 13

2 ASIs - 20 DEX, 18 CHA (probably Elven Accuracy + Fey Touched... maybe Slasher)
Spells - better Armor & Lightning Blade, Greater Invisibility (picturing using this while genie flying... nearly undetectable swashbuckler)
Genie Vessel - 10 minute short rest and party clowncar shenanigans
Invocations - Eldritch Mind & Repelling Blast (air bender...)
Rogue 4 -> 10
3 ASI - 20 DEX, 20 CHA?
Defenses - Evasion & Uncanny Dodge
Panache (this seems really fun, but I'm unsure how useful it'll be at level 16)
Battlemaster 7
2 ASI - 20 Dex, 18 CHA
Extra Attack (no booming blade, but maybe swapping to TWF and getting Spirit Shroud)
Swashbuckly Maneuvers like Riposte and Trip Attack
Swords/Valor Bard?

Paladin?


Help!:

Any strong feelings on what class levels will get me the most value as we move into tier III? Should I stick to one of my present classes, or branch out into another one? Probably a lot of my indecision is the battle between the narrative satisfaction I get out of a well-roleplayed character progression and my need to be comfortably optimized.

My primary combat role in the party is single target damage, and falling off on that might get us into trouble. I'd like to continue my ability to be a mobile attacker, but I don't know the best progression to pull that off. Should I just go for all the utility in the warlock levels? Pump up my sneak attack dmg and get the rogue defenses? Go extra attack and get some defensive maneuvers? Something else?


Thank you for reading through my rambling!

[Rolero]

Very cool character. Just curious, if you defeated your patron (or I assume, an avatar of it) you can still advance on your warlock career no problem? Does he not want revenge or some kind of retribution because of his defeat? Again, just curious.

In any case, about where to go from here.

The Warlock path definetly has better perks. The capacity to fly without concentration is bonkers, you should get the 6th level at minimum. The 10th level is also very useful, getting to do short rests in 10 min, especially since there is another Warlock on the group, allows for a quick pit stop to recharge your magic. Going to 11th level and more will also grant you a third spell to cast.

For Rogue Levels, I would get another level for the ASI but no more. While Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are useful, access to higher magics and warlock powers is stronger on the long run.

So, if you end up going to 16th level, being Warlock 12 Rogue 4, will net you 3 extra ASI. I would consider Mobile, since it looks like you tend to go for hit and run tactics, being able to ignore AoO while you flyby could be very useful.

I would not recommend picking up Bard levels, as it will take very long for it to be worth it. Two levels in Fighter could be useful to grab action surge and an extra fighting style, but, again, it will take 3-5 levels to start to see an improvement of your current self.

Another possibility, ask your DM if you can switch your pact boon and invocations. Since you defeated your patreon in single combat, your character could be interest in changing her focus. Going for Blade Pact and grabbing Thirsting Blade to get two attacks can be good if you don't want to rely on booming blade forever, using Spirit Shroud as a good sustitute for chunks of extra damage. If you go the warlock route, eventually getting Life Drinker will net more punishment.

Hope this helps.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Suggest against a triple class (No paladin, no bard)
2. At level 9 take Warlock 6. That level 6 feature is sweet.
4. Getting to Warlock 11 gets you a mystic aracnum and three spells per short rest.

Personal preferences: Eldritch Mind and Repelling Blast; you don't already have them, so get them as soon as you can. RB is, in my experience, handy as all get out.

Feats: I'd boost you casting stat first. Later in life maybe get a half feat (I love skill expert, but you already have expertise in a couple of skills. One more would not hurt) (I recently picked up Moderately Armored for my bard and am happy to have done so).

Finish at Lock 11 Rogue 5, but, if you really want another ASI/Feat, go Lock 12 Rogue 4; your swashbuckler disengage might suffice for combat mobility. (I've found higher level games to have much stranger combat, but there's still plenty of time to slip in the blade).

Short term build advice, since you are itching for a feat or an ASI: Lock Six, Rogue 4, Lock to 10 for sure, and then decide if you want to end 12/4 or 11/5.

[Shrieve]

Very cool character. Just curious, if you defeated your patron (or I assume, an avatar of it) you can still advance on your warlock career no problem? Does he not want revenge or some kind of retribution because of his defeat? Again, just curious.

So the duel that broke out was over the patron's continued usage of vague promises, threatening overtones, and belittling of my character. This had been ongoing from the start of the game, but originally my character did not push back very much. For her, it was more of the same, since in the backstory (before level 2 in the game), she had been the house servant for a cruel trade prince. The servant's original deal with the djinni freed her from her vessel (an amulet I styled after persian astrolabes), and in exchange gave my character a chance for freedom, to live like the corsairs and swashbucklers in the adventure books she read. Their relationship felt normal (master/servant), and my character continued doing various tasks for the patron in exchange for a bit of power.

Fast forward nearly a year in-game (and a little longer out of game), and my character is living the life she wanted. The party actually has a ship under contract with a pirate queen, and the group made my character captain. She's gotten into a ton of scrapes and lived, and has grown a lot in confidence. Her patron started pressuring her to collect a magical mcguffin (tied the main story plotline), and my character was getting pulled into two directions. Continuing to server her patron (who had threatened to take away her gifts and put her back in her old master's home :smalleek:), or loyalty to the party and the crew she was now responsible for.

The swashbuckler tried to get more information out of her patron about what she wanted to use the artifact before (like would we get it back... we kind of need it to solve a war that's broken out...), but constantly got shut down. This went back and forth, and with some IC encouragement and morale boosting from party-members, she went back into the amulet to confront the djinni. I had intended it to be a conversation that would either be break the pact or come to some kind of agreement, but the flow of the conversation naturally lead into my character drawing her rapier and telling the patron 'enguard' (basically I have changed, you can't keep treating me like your little servant, witness me).

I expected to get my ass tossed out of the amulet, and then we'd have to pick up the pieces. The dice had another thing planned! Anyways, long-winded background aside, to actually answer your question... When the dust settled, my character put a blade to the patron's avatar's throat as she collapsed on the ground. But instead of stabbing, she holstered the blade, sat down in front of the patron, and started talking. Basically just laid out that if her patron simply was truthful, treated with a modicum of respect and like a person, she'd be happy to help. In fact, the former servant felt a little kinship in the way the djinni was trapped and tied to the amulet. The djinni was still pretty blustering and evasive, but with a bit of prodding they finally came to agreement. The patron did not want to keep the artifact, she just wanted to use it as a focus to be pulled through the planes and be free of her home.

My character hashed out a few details, and then-- for the first time-- stuck her hand out to shake on it. The djinni-- very reluctantly-- took it, and shook. Next session we pulled her through, she didn't turn on us (in fact she helped us in a fight), and then flew off towards the storm that had been tearing across some of the islands. Talking a bit out of game with the dm, my character can still talk to the patron through the amulet, so it really depends on where he and I want to take things narratively.



The Warlock path definetly has better perks. The capacity to fly without concentration is bonkers, you should get the 6th level at minimum. The 10th level is also very useful, getting to do short rests in 10 min, especially since there is another Warlock on the group, allows for a quick pit stop to recharge your magic. Going to 11th level and more will also grant you a third spell to cast.

For Rogue Levels, I would get another level for the ASI but no more. While Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are useful, access to higher magics and warlock powers is stronger on the long run.

So, if you end up going to 16th level, being Warlock 12 Rogue 4, will net you 3 extra ASI. I would consider Mobile, since it looks like you tend to go for hit and run tactics, being able to ignore AoO while you flyby could be very useful.

I would not recommend picking up Bard levels, as it will take very long for it to be worth it. Two levels in Fighter could be useful to grab action surge and an extra fighting style, but, again, it will take 3-5 levels to start to see an improvement of your current self.

Another possibility, ask your DM if you can switch your pact boon and invocations. Since you defeated your patreon in single combat, your character could be interest in changing her focus. Going for Blade Pact and grabbing Thirsting Blade to get two attacks can be good if you don't want to rely on booming blade forever, using Spirit Shroud as a good sustitute for chunks of extra damage. If you go the warlock route, eventually getting Life Drinker will net more punishment.

Hope this helps.

It's a ton of help! Thank you for taking the time!

100% agreed on Warlock Level 6. The NC flight is too good in combat, exploration, and just flavor to pass up. Plus the thunder resistance (while not particularly strong), feels very in character for her to have. I think I might grab Tongues too... Seems like a useful thing for the party to have in our back pocket. It might be good to swap Misty Visions for Eldritch Mind now too... I've had some fun with the free Silent Image, but I suppose Major Image can serve that role despite the slot cost (I've typically used it in scouting and exploration anyways).

After that though? Agreed on Bard or Paladin. I actually laid out what I get out of both, and although there's some fun narrative beats in that (cutting words feels very in-character for her), getting low level spells seems pretty lame compared to the upcoming juicy warlock stuff. I'm leaning more and more into primarily Warlock, with maybe 4/5 rogue? The ASI next level probably makes the most sense in the short term (even if it throws off what I thought would be the perfect lvl 20 capstone to her journey; Mystic Arcanum 9... wish)

If I can a half-feat works to get that 20 Dex, would you have any recommendations? I was eyeing either Elven Accuracy (I get adv pretty reliably through my familiar, as the DM lets summons share init), Slasher (the slow and heal reduction seem like decent utility for the party? plus the slow makes the kiting even more vicious), or Moderately Armored (retheme the shield as a parrying dagger)? I'm kind of less sold on the latter, personally, as we do get decent down time and I've trained weapon skills before.

Thanks again!

Edit: typed so much I forgot to respond to the pact of the blade comment. That's something I can certainly talk to the DM about. This blade I got from the fight definitely fits a lot of that criteria. My one hesitation is the mephit chain familiar I have has kind of grown into an NPC character in his own right. A lot of the party enjoys his antics (he's sort of like... a disney movie companion? something like Iago almost? It would kind of suck to toss him away) But I will consider it.

[Shrieve]

1. Suggest against a triple class (No paladin, no bard)
2. At level 9 take Warlock 6. That level 6 feature is sweet.
4. Getting to Warlock 11 gets you a mystic aracnum and three spells per short rest.

Personal preferences: Eldritch Mind and Repelling Blast; you don't already have them, so get them as soon as you can. RB is, in my experience, handy as all get out.

Feats: I'd boost you casting stat first. Later in life maybe get a half feat (I love skill expert, but you already have expertise in a couple of skills. One more would not hurt) (I recently picked up Moderately Armored for my bard and am happy to have done so).

Finish at Lock 11 Rogue 5, but, if you really want another ASI/Feat, go Lock 12 Rogue 4; your swashbuckler disengage might suffice for combat mobility. (I've found higher level games to have much stranger combat, but there's still plenty of time to slip in the blade).

Short term build advice, since you are itching for a feat or an ASI: Lock Six, Rogue 4, Lock to 10 for sure, and then decide if you want to end 12/4 or 11/5.


Agreed! I took a deeper dive on what I would get and the low level spells just don't add a lot. (Although the slots would be nice)
Also agreed! Added a bit of info in the second blurb above!
The three slots does sound very freeing. Also that first arcanum has some good picks. Maybe Mental Prison? Lock down a pesky wizard or big scary death knight.

I think that I will swap Misty Visions for Eldritch Mind. Agreed for Repelling Blast. We're on ships a lot, and knocking people off into the water sounds fun. Also, they are air bender blasts.

Interesting! You'd suggest 18 CHA first? I suppose my weapon swings hit decently often even if the AC and Init bump is a nice side bonus. Although with Swashbuckler I do get the init regardless so it's really the AC and weapon dmg. I will have to think on that...

If I have feat CHA, would you recommend skill expert over Elven Accuracy or something like Fey Touched? That being said, adding prof to deception and expertise to either insight or athletics would be useful and feels accurate to her character growth.

[KorvinStarmast]

We're on ships a lot, and knocking people off into the water sounds fun. Also, they are air bender blasts. Embrace the air theme! Love it! :smallsmile:

Interesting! You'd suggest 18 CHA first?
Yes. But I have a personal mania about getting my spell save DC up as high as I can, as soon as I can, and my spell attack as well, but in particular for battlefield control spells. (It all began early in my 5e career, when everyone and their brother, including most zombies, kept making saves versus my Sacred Flame cantrip) ... but it's your call.

If I have feat CHA, would you recommend skill expert over Elven Accuracy or something like Fey Touched? That being said, adding prof to deception and expertise to either insight or athletics would be useful and feels accurate to her character growth. Given that I hate Elven Accuracy and all 'race based feats' from Xanathar's, my opinion is not objective.
Fey Touched is a great half feat for what you are trying to do, I think. Any of the half feats from Tasha's fits, but Fey Touched would be a fine choice.

[Shrieve]

Embrace the air theme! Love it! :smallsmile:

That's the plan! I wish 5E had more lightning and thunder spells but I've been making due.


Yes. But I have a personal mania about getting my spell save DC up as high as I can, as soon as I can, and my spell attack as well, but in particular for battlefield control spells. (It all began early in my 5e career, when everyone and their brother, including most zombies, kept making saves versus my Sacred Flame cantrip) ... but it's your call.

Makes sense. I think I'll end up going with whichever of the two I can find the appropriate gem type to get the +1 tattoo. Taking the decision out of my hands will help me quit agonizing over it.


Given that I hate Elven Accuracy and all 'race based feats' from Xanathar's, my opinion is not objective.
Fey Touched is a great half feat for what you are trying to do, I think. Any of the half feats from Tasha's fits, but Fey Touched would be a fine choice.

Fair enough! Fey Touched with gift of alacrity sounds pretty spicy if the DM oks it. A D8 on top of the DEX+CHA init... Might just be overkill.

[KorvinStarmast]

Fair enough! Fey Touched with gift of alacrity sounds pretty spicy if the DM oks it. A D8 on top of the DEX+CHA init... Might just be overkill. Going first allows you to apply some battlefield control. :smallsmile: