What, exactly, makes up "Shield Bonus?"

[RexDart]

Let's say I'm carrying a +2 Light Steel Shield, and a 10th level cleric has cast Shield of Warding on it, on top of that.

It's clear enough that I'm getting a total of +6 to AC from the shield, because we have:
+1 Armor bonus for being a plain old regular shield
+2 Enhancement bonus because someone made it a magic shield.
+3 Sacred bonus because of the cleric's spell

But what is my total Shield Bonus?

I'm particularly asking with regard to the Shield Ward feat: "You apply your shield bonus to your touch AC...."

Is my current Shield Bonus +1, +3, or +6?

[hamishspence]

I'd say "every boost to AC that's "on the shield", is the total Shield Bonus.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm

Armor/Shield Bonus
Each armor grants an armor bonus to AC, while shields grant a shield bonus to AC. The armor bonus from a suit of armor doesn’t stack with other effects or items that grant an armor bonus. Similarly, the shield bonus from a shield doesn’t stack with other effects that grant a shield bonus.

That's why the enhancement bonus from magic armor and the enhancement bonus from a magic shield stack - because one raises the armor bonus, and the other raises the shield bonus - armor and shield bonuses stack, however they are boosted.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm

Shield Bonus
A shield bonus improves Armor Class and is granted by a shield or by a spell or magic effect that mimics a shield. Shield bonuses stack with all other bonuses to AC except other shield bonuses. A magic shield typically grants an enhancement bonus to the shield's shield bonus, which has the effect of increasing the shield's overall bonus to AC. A shield bonus granted by a spell or magic item typically takes the form of an invisible, tangible field of force that protects the recipient. A shield bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.


I might point out though that the Shield of Warding spell from Draconomicon doesn't effect AC, it only affects Reflex saves. So your character's Shield Bonus should be +3 with that version. It wasn't till Spell Compendium that it affected AC as well. I'm guessing you're using the Spell Compendium version.

The phrasing "The touched shield grants it's wielder a sacred bonus to AC" is a bit blurry - it's not explicit that the sacred bonus is added directly to the shield bonus. Still, since it only functions when the shield is being worn or carried normally, and not when it is slung over the shoulder, I'd say that RAI is that it's a "sacred shield bonus" rather than a plain "sacred bonus" regardless of how ambiguous RAW is.

[RexDart]

(ninja - yes, going by the Spell Compendium version here.)

[hamishspence]

I personally would rule that the sacred bonus is effectively being granted to the shield itself rather than to the wielder - that it can be used with the Shield Ward feat ("Shield Bonus is +6")- and that without that feat, the sacred bonus does not apply toward touch attacks.

The RAW might be a bit ambiguous here, but I'm certain that this is RAI.

[Khedrac]

Let's say I'm carrying a +2 Light Steel Shield, and a 10th level cleric has cast Shield of Warding on it, on top of that.

It's clear enough that I'm getting a total of +6 to AC from the shield, because we have:
+1 shield bonus for being a plain old regular shield
+2 shield bonus to AC (total +3) beause the +2 Enhancement bonus increases the shield's own bonus.
+3 sacred bonus because of the cleric's spell

But what is my total Shield Bonus?

I'm particularly asking with regard to the Shield Ward feat: "You apply your shield bonus to your touch AC...."

Is my current Shield Bonus +1, +3, or +6?

I think by RAW the +3 sacred bonus is not part of the shield bonus - the shield is now granting you the bonus but it is not a shield bonus. :smallfrown:
However I agree with hamishspence that it should be counted for the shieldward feat - call it RAI (probably) and I would rule this way if I was the DM.

[Mordaedil]

If there's something that requires you to note how much AC is granted by the shield itself, it is just the 3AC, the sacred AC just applies to all other bonuses when the shield is wielded as a shield. But it also is a bonus applied when shield normally doesn't help protect you, since it is a sacred bonus.

[Biggus]

+1 shield bonus for being a plain old regular shield
+2 shield bonus to AC (total +3) beause the +2 Enhancement bonus increases the shield's own bonus.
+3 sacred bonus because of the cleric's spell


I think by RAW the +3 sacred bonus is not part of the shield bonus - the shield is now granting you the bonus but it is not a shield bonus. :smallfrown:
However I agree with hamishspence that it should be counted for the shieldward feat - call it RAI (probably) and I would rule this way if I was the DM.

Given that "Shield bonus" is a named bonus type, like Deflection bonus or Dodge bonus, I'm pretty sure you're right that the Sacred bonus (a different named bonus type) doesn't count as part of it.

I don't see a problem letting it apply to Shield Ward though, shield users need all the help they can get.

[Remuko]

+3

base +1 shield bonus.

+2 enhancement bonus to that shield bonus.

shield ward feat or w/e it was called adds +3.

the +3 from the spell is a sacred bonus and is already added to your touch AC, as nothing says touch AC ignores sacred AC bonus. you dont get to double dip on the sacred bonus.

[hamishspence]

If there's something that requires you to note how much AC is granted by the shield itself, it is just the 3AC, the sacred AC just applies to all other bonuses when the shield is wielded as a shield. But it also is a bonus applied when shield normally doesn't help protect you, since it is a sacred bonus.

The spell specifically states that the bonus is not applied when the shield doesn't normally help protect you.

If the Warding Shield spell is cast, and then the shield is slung across the back (but still worn) you have zero sacred bonus to AC. Even if someone cast a spell that targets your touch AC. That's what the spell appears to say.

This is why I'm suggesting that the spell is not applied to AC specifically, but to "shield bonus" which is a subset of AC.

[Darg]

This is why I'm suggesting that the spell is not applied to AC specifically, but to "shield bonus" which is a subset of AC.

It would say that it is a "sacred bonus to your shield bonus" just like how you get an enhancement bonus to your shield bonus.

Instead, it is saying "The touched shield or buckler grants its wielder a +1 sacred bonus to Armor Class." It's not granting a bonus to the shield; it's granting the shield the ability to grant you a sacred bonus to AC just like how a ring of protection grants you a deflection bonus. As further iterated, "The bonus applies only when the shield is worn or carried normally," unlike an enhancement bonus the sacred bonus will apply even when not strapped to your arm but still carried in hand.

[hamishspence]

Some shields are carried in the hand instead of worn strapped to the arm. Tower shields, for example. You carry them in the hand, and at any point, you can put the shield down and instead of using it as a shield, use it as mobile cover.


It would say that it is a "sacred bonus to your shield bonus" just like how you get an enhancement bonus to your shield bonus.

Instead, it is saying "The touched shield or buckler grants its wielder a +1 sacred bonus to Armor Class." It's not granting a bonus to the shield; it's granting the shield the ability to grant you a sacred bonus to AC just like how a ring of protection grants you a deflection bonus.

Yes, the spell does not phrase it as "sacred bonus to shield bonus" but the fact that the sacred bonus goes away when the shield is slung across the back (but is still "being carried/worn" - just not in the normal fashion), what what gave me the idea that this was what was meant even if it wasn't said.

Hence use of the phrase "wielder" instead of "wearer" or "carrier".


For example, if you cast the spell on a buckler small enough to store in the backpack, and then store the buckler in the backpack, despite the fact that you are "carrying the buckler" - you are not doing so "in the normal fashion" so the sacred bonus becomes unusable.


Given that "Shield bonus" is a named bonus type, like Deflection bonus or Dodge bonus, I'm pretty sure you're right that the Sacred bonus (a different named bonus type) doesn't count as part of it.
Enhancement bonus is a named bonus type and yet it does count as "part of other bonuses", raising those bonuses.

[Saint-Just]

Specifically in the context of Shield Ward it is reasonably clear that you get the full +6. Either spell is not a part of a shield bonus and therefore applies against touch AC generally, or it is a part of a shield bonus and it applies because of the feat. The only hairs left to split is what would be the touch AC of someone with identical equipment but without the Shield Ward.

[AnimeTheCat]

The spell specifically states that the bonus is not applied when the shield doesn't normally help protect you.

If the Warding Shield spell is cast, and then the shield is slung across the back (but still worn) you have zero sacred bonus to AC. Even if someone cast a spell that targets your touch AC. That's what the spell appears to say.

This is why I'm suggesting that the spell is not applied to AC specifically, but to "shield bonus" which is a subset of AC.

While I understand what you're saying, I think that if you apply that same logic to another defensive item, say... bracers of armor or a ring of protection, that argument falls apart. The Deflection bonus to AC of a Ring of Protection only works when you are wearing the ring, but it's still just a deflection bonus. The armor bonus to AC doesn't work when you're not wearing the Bracers of Armor, but it's still an armor bonus. Simply not wearing the shield with the spell cast on it doesn't change the source or type of the bonus (worn or wielded item, Sacred bonus), but it does change whether it is impacting you.


Enhancement bonus is a named bonus type and yet it does count as "part of other bonuses", raising those bonuses.

I feel like this is the exception, not the rule. The enhancement bonus is explicitly added to the shield. You don't get a "Shield Enhancement Bonus to AC", it's just all added to the shield bonus and then you apply your shield bonus, just like with armor, it's all added to your Armor Bonus, and then added to your AC as an Armor Bonus. Even with things like Natural Armor, you never get a "Natural Armor Enhancement Bonus to your AC", it's always a +x Enhancement Bonus to your Natural Armor.


Specifically in the context of Shield Ward it is reasonably clear that you get the full +6. Either spell is not a part of a shield bonus and therefore applies against touch AC generally, or it is a part of a shield bonus and it applies because of the feat. The only hairs left to split is what would be the touch AC of someone with identical equipment but without the Shield Ward.

In the case where you have shield ward, or your shield is able to apply it's shield bonus to your Touch AC, you get your shield bonus to Touch AC. That would mean +6. When you don't have Shield Ward or some other effect that grants you your Shield Bonus to AC, you only get the Sacred Bonus to AC. That would mean only +3. You take the shield off or stop wielding it, you lose that Sacred Bonus, just like if you had taken off a Ring of Protection or Bracers of Armor.

[Darg]

Some shields are carried in the hand instead of worn strapped to the arm. Tower shields, for example. You carry them in the hand, and at any point, you can put the shield down and instead of using it as a shield, use it as mobile cover.

That's not how it works in 3.X. To benefit from any shield's AC bonus, it must be strapped to the arm. You also don't need to be unstrapped from the shield for it to provide cover.


Yes, the spell does not phrase it as "sacred bonus to shield bonus" but the fact that the sacred bonus goes away when the shield is slung across the back (but is still "being carried/worn" - just not in the normal fashion), what what gave me the idea that this was what was meant even if it wasn't said.

Hence use of the phrase "wielder" instead of "wearer" or "carrier".


For example, if you cast the spell on a buckler small enough to store in the backpack, and then store the buckler in the backpack, despite the fact that you are "carrying the buckler" - you are not doing so "in the normal fashion" so the sacred bonus becomes unusable.

A shield can still be used as a weapon even when not strapped to the arm in case you don't have the move action to spend strapping it to your arm. If we want to get into semantics, you aren't carrying the buckler, the bag is. You are only carrying it's weight and the bag in that scenario.


Enhancement bonus is a named bonus type and yet it does count as "part of other bonuses", raising those bonuses.


Enhancement Bonus

An enhancement bonus represents an increase in the sturdiness and/or effectiveness of armor or natural armor, or the effectiveness of a weapon, or a general bonus to an ability score. Multiple enhancement bonuses on the same object (in the case of armor and weapons), creature (in the case of natural armor), or ability score do not stack. Only the highest enhancement bonus applies. Since enhancement bonuses to armor or natural armor effectively increase the armor or natural armor's bonus to AC, they don't apply against touch attacks.

An enhancement bonus is an exception to the rule as that is how it is defined and exampled all over the place to be. Sacred bonuses are just like the other bonuses by applying directly to an object or creature.

[the_tick_rules]

If it helps at this point I would consider it to be the +3 from the shield and enhancement but not the sacred. By the way how awesome a feat is this? Combine it a +5 armor with the ghost ward property and you have +11 against touch attacks, that will mess any spellcasters day up. Ranged touch attacks still count right?

Oh and shouldn't your shield bonus be +2? Shield ward requires shield specialization as a prereq which increases the shield bonus by 1.

[RexDart]

Oh and shouldn't your shield bonus be +2? Shield ward requires shield specialization as a prereq which increases the shield bonus by 1.

True, and the Shield Specialization +1 is on my character sheet for factoring into my AC, but it goes to show how rarely we look at "shield bonus" or "armor bonus" in isolation like this.

[Vaern]

RAW, a sacred bonus is its own type of bonus. It is not a shield bonus, despite being attached to your shield, and the feat would not benefit from it.

RAI, the spell in question makes the sacred bonus function in basically the same way as a more conventional enhancement to your shield bonus. While it isn't technically a shield bonus, it wouldn't be unreasonable for a DM to allow the feat to benefit from its bonus.

[Crichton]

It's been mentioned here already, but this is all kind of a moot point, with regards to the op's question of touch AC


Your touch AC isn't going to change either way you rule this, since Sacred bonuses to AC apply to touch AC anyway. The bonus from Shield of Warding will either apply to your touch AC from the Shield Ward feat, or it'll apply normally to your touch AC because it's a Sacred bonus and they apply anyway, but you're not going to get it twice.


I suppose it's possible there could be other scenarios where the distinction would matter, but for calculating your touch AC it's irrelevant.

[Vaern]

It's been mentioned here already, but this is all kind of a moot point, with regards to the op's question of touch AC


Your touch AC isn't going to change either way you rule this, since Sacred bonuses to AC apply to touch AC anyway. The bonus from Shield of Warding will either apply to your touch AC from the Shield Ward feat, or it'll apply normally to your touch AC because it's a Sacred bonus and they apply anyway, but you're not going to get it twice.


I suppose it's possible there could be other scenarios where the distinction would matter, but for calculating your touch AC it's irrelevant.
It'll apply to touch AC regardless, sure, but the feat also applies your shield bonus to a few other rolls that might come into play. Outside of the specific scenario mentioned, whether you choose to include it as part of your shield bonus may still be significant.

[Crichton]

It'll apply to touch AC regardless, sure, but the feat also applies your shield bonus to a few other rolls that might come into play. Outside of the specific scenario mentioned, whether you choose to include it as part of your shield bonus may still be significant.

I suppose that's fair, with regard to the 'bull rush, disarm, grapple, overrun, or trip attempts' clause.

I'm with those above in that RAW is pretty clear that it doesn't add to your shield bonus.

The Ring of Protection analogy is entirely sound, from the text of Shield of Warding. It basically adds the magical property to your shield to function the same general way a Ring of Protection does, with the minor changes to the bonus type and which saves it applies to, but there's no text in that spell, or the Shield Ward feat, or the general bonus type and stacking rules, that allows for it to RAW be an alteration or addition to your actual Shield bonus. It merely adds another property that gives you a Sacred bonus to AC and reflex saves, not changes your Shield bonus.

RAI, sure, there's enough wiggle room to make a rule change to allow it without outright contradicting the text, but since it applies to touch AC either way, the difference seems minor, with it only affecting the roll to resist those specific special attacks.