Martial Power: 'cause everyone else is doing it.

[Bjarkmundur]

There is so much talk about Martials not having enough options, needing tactical choices etc. Although I love all the ideas floating about on skill powers, I stumbled upon this stupid solution.

I really just wanted to share this with y'all, and maybe get some feedback of whether this doesn't do the trick, at least in broad strokes, to give martial characters some alternatives to just taking the attack action.

Martial PowerCharacters that do not have the Spellcasting class feature have access to this Special action:
Before you take the Attack action, you can choose to reduce the damage dealt by half, add the effects of one of the following actions to your attack. Once you do so you cannot do so again until after a Short or Long rest.


Help

Hide

Dodge

Dash

Disarm

Search

Shove

Tumble

Overrun

Use Object

[Skrum]

I think this is change is of so little consequence it wouldn't matter. No offense intended, but 1/short rest? And they deal only half damage? Not nearly strong enough.

I also have an aesthetic objection to "no one with the spellcasting feature can do this." Does this mean a fighter becomes an Eldritch Knight at 3rd loses this ability? I just don't like that.

I am strongly in camp "give martials more options." And I think you're on to something, mechanically speaking. But it should be way less limited than this.

[Kane0]

At prof bonus +2, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to attempt a Shove, Disarm, Tumble or Overrun as part of that attack.

At prof bonus +3, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Help, Search or Use Object action.

At prof bonus +4, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dash, Disengage or Hide action.

At prof bonus +5, once oer turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dodge or Activate Magic Item action.

A little simpler and better balanced?

[SharkForce]

At prof bonus +2, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to attempt a Shove, Disarm, Tumble or Overrun as part of that attack.

At prof bonus +3, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Help, Search or Use Object action.

At prof bonus +4, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dash, Disengage or Hide action.

At prof bonus +5, once oer turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dodge or Activate Magic Item action.

A little simpler and better balanced?

as a personal concern, this really erodes the value of the class features of rogue and monk in particular, which allow them to do these things as a bonus action. if they were in need of nerfing, that would be fine, but I certainly don't see it that way.

on the other hand, I really do like the idea, so instead of saying "no, don't do this" my thinking is more along the lines of "is there a way we could make this idea work better in combination with those class features?"

[Nidgit]

as a personal concern, this really erodes the value of the class features of rogue and monk in particular, which allow them to do these things as a bonus action. if they were in need of nerfing, that would be fine, but I certainly don't see it that way.

on the other hand, I really do like the idea, so instead of saying "no, don't do this" my thinking is more along the lines of "is there a way we could make this idea work better in combination with those class features?"
I'm of the same opinion. My thought would be to keep Dodge, Disengage, and Hide off the list of martial maneuvers and more exclusive to Rogues, Monks, and maybe some subclasses.

Most other things can stay, with the addendum that there's no limit to how many times you can attempt any of them so long as you're replacing no more than one attack per turn. Use Object probably shouldn't be on the list since that's kind of the Thief's thing.

[Sillybird99]

what if it was tied to the extra attack feature? so it comes online at level 5 when the caster martial gap widens, and instead of the extra math involved with halving damage, you just forgo an extra attack.

potential concerns with this:

-it starts later
- it leaves rogues out, but this could be fixed by adding the above actions to their cunning action at the appropriate levels
-fighters will eventually be able to do this more than other classes with extra attack×2-3

your would just remove the +4 prof actions and shift everything else down, starting at +3 prof

[Bjarkmundur]

At prof bonus +2, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to attempt a Shove, Disarm, Tumble or Overrun as part of that attack.

At prof bonus +3, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Help, Search or Use Object action.

At prof bonus +4, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dash, Disengage or Hide action.

At prof bonus +5, once oer turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dodge or Activate Magic Item action.

A little simpler and better balanced?

I'm currently playtesting this, and a couple of questions have arisen.

1st, is there a reason for Grappling to come online so late?
2nd, with Search and Use Object being rather niche, and often handwaved anyways, is there a reason why you felt that +3 should be a "dead level", with the exception of Help? Getting help might be enough, that's not it, I'm just picking your brain (as always)
3rd, would some static damage reduction be more apt, rather than "give your target resistance". Do you feel "-level", "-half level", "-prof mod" or even "-1d10" might make for a better player experience?

[elyktsorb]

At prof bonus +2, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to attempt a Shove, Disarm, Tumble or Overrun as part of that attack.

At prof bonus +3, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Help, Search or Use Object action.

At prof bonus +4, once per turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dash, Disengage or Hide action.

At prof bonus +5, once oer turn you can opt to halve the damage of a weapon attack in order to take the Dodge or Activate Magic Item action.

A little simpler and better balanced?

isn't this literally just being a rogue? who can use their reaction to half damage from 1 attack and then has additional ways to do this stuff?

Also Activate Magic Item is definitely weird to include for 'martials' the theif rogue can't even do that as a bonus action

[stoutstien]

What I did was two folds. First I moved the majority of the martial feat taxes away from the ASI/feat system and placed them on weapons as special tags with ability score minimums to use. Additionally I make feats like charger built in the basic rules.

Secondly I allow shove/grapple with AOs and made extra attack to be modular with some of the BM fighter maneuvers with a damage reduction as a cost. So a barbarian could use the trip maneuver but only deal weapon damage die on the attack.

[Pex]

Battlemasters get to do some of these with full damage and an extra die of damage. It's their class feature. A Battlemaster gets to do these anyway but not an Eldritch Knight? Sucks for him for choosing the wrong subclass. Are the new Echo Knight and Psi Warrior spellcasters? What about Totem Barbarians? People often forget they have spellcasting. Very niche and very little, but they do. Paladin and Ranger are martials too. Monk and Rogue want to know where they fit.

Yes, spells can do very powerful things, but it's not as if the warrior classes are chopped liver. The warrior classes have no problem doing warrior things, so giving them more warrior stuff doesn't help anything. The complaint, as it is, is a lack of power buttons to push to influence things out of combat. Some actually do, if more in the subclasses. What they're really bothered about is whatever they can do out of combat is not as shiny as spells. It's an endless debate well beyond the intent of this thread.

[Bjarkmundur]

@elyktsorb - You half your own weapon damage, so it's a "sacrifice damage, add utility" meant to make those utility options a bit more appealing to use.

@pex - I currently have it so these options are available to everyone

Pathfinder usually has more complicated action mechanics. Do they have something similar?

[elyktsorb]

@elyktsorb - You half your own weapon damage, so it's a "sacrifice damage, add utility" meant to make those utility options a bit more appealing to use.


+2 Prof, disarm is neat, and probably the one you'll always go for.

+3 Prof, welcome to stepping on two Rogue subclasses, which will effectively make them both never need to be used.

+4 Prof, welcome to stepping on the entire Rogue class, incidentally, all rogues will be two weapon fighting now

+5 Prof, welcome to martials always having Dodge active, as it lasts until the start of your next turn, and there's no way you won't give up half of 1 attacks damage to have Dodge status. Activating a Magic item is just busted and thematically inappropriate.

[Bjarkmundur]

I think I'll keep it as is for now, but look forward to hearing what Kane0 has to say about his thought process.

If I want to add the utility of martials, and do it fairly, I'll probably just use Martial Adept and Metamagic Adept in a no-feat game. More on that later.

[Pex]

I still don't see a need for this. If the idea is to encourage players to do more than just attack for damage this won't help because they want the full damage not half. To encourage players to learn tactics, to find worth in doing more than just attack for damage, the best teacher is experience. Have the bad guys do it. A neat trick is for a cleric in heavy armor and shield to stand in front of a choke point, cast Spirit Guardians, then dodge for the rest of the combat while his friends behind him attack with range attacks. Have two enemies attack the high AC PC. One Helps the other, granting advantage making it easier to hit and do lots of damage. Have an enemy trip a PC so that another makes all his attacks with advantage. Disarm a PC and use one free item interaction to kick the weapon away.

These are things players can do already. It's good to teach them for players who don't know or understand the significance.

[Kane0]

I'm currently playtesting this, and a couple of questions have arisen.

1st, is there a reason for Grappling to come online so late?
2nd, with Search and Use Object being rather niche, and often handwaved anyways, is there a reason why you felt that +3 should be a "dead level", with the exception of Help? Getting help might be enough, that's not it, I'm just picking your brain (as always)
3rd, would some static damage reduction be more apt, rather than "give your target resistance". Do you feel "-level", "-half level", "-prof mod" or even "-1d10" might make for a better player experience?

I was just spitballing, its a rough concept so theres bound to be problems.

1: Grapples should be tied to shoves, no? That would mean theyre available from level 1

2: Help is pretty good, but prof +3 hits at the same level you get extra attack which is a pretty big deal

3: it will hit each class differently, half the damage of one attack for a fighter or monk isnt a lot to give up but it certainly is for a rogue or smiting paladin. I dont think a flat amount would change much but its worth considering.

Re Rogues: because they only get one high damage attack they probably wont want to do this much, so their usual bonus action stuff wont be obsolete though as I said, scratchpad idea to see if it took off.

[Bjarkmundur]

Well, I'm going with it.
Thinking about moving disarm to +3, to represent how skillful that move is.

The only situation I can see "hide" being a useful rider is when your are shooting from behind cover. What do the stealth rules in 5e says about this?

[paladinn]

I think the big-but-simple question is, "Who would get this?" The term "martial character" can mean many things. "Anyone who doesn't cast spells"? That includes a Lot: most fighters, barbarians, rogues, monks, etc. "Fighter class only"? Does that include battlemasters, EK's, etc.? Champion fighters only? They are supposed to be the "simplest" option of any sub/class. Do we really want to complicate it? If we want a complicated, more-tactical fighter, that's what the battlemaster is for. Does the BM (sorry, couldn't resist) really need beefing-up?

Some people appreciate simplicity, and don't mind "just swinging a weapon." D&D needs to be a home for them too. I think that's one reason 4e failed.

[BoutsofInsanity]

This is already hard wired into the rules.

Page 195 of the PHB top right corner "Contests in Combat". States

Battle often involves pitting your prowess against that of your foe. Such a challenge is represented by a contests. This section includes the most common contests that require an action in combat: Grappling and Shoving a creature. The DM can use these contests as models for improvising others

This off the top of my head could include actions like

Eye gouges
Throat punches
Disarming
Choking someone out
Just about every Battle Master maneuver (Sort of)
My personal favorite - Disrupting spell casting components



Each martial class has a different strength when associated with using this rule and different weaknesses until feats are taken into account.

Rogue's - Free Expertise as a feature. Allowing them for high rolls even with one attack

Fighter - Multiple attacks and a most likely already proficient in Athletics (With feats can pick up expertise)

Barbarian - Advantage when raging and a strength focused class

Monk - Multiple attacks and synergistic class features

The ability to do this is balanced around several factors.

These "contests" or opposed checks require (Except in the Battle Master and Empty Hand Monk's case) the character to sacrifice damage in order to inflict a status effect
Some of the more brutal effects, like choking or spell component disruption require the character to remain within melee range of the target. If the target walks away because they aren't grappled yet, then the effects are broken
Requires investment in Athletics and strength abilities within character creation
Requires the character to close distance and stick within melee range of target


Your new rule is explicitly a buff for the martial characters. So long as you don't limit the above option, I don't think it will cause to many problems. But remember, you open yourself up to the following combo. Which is very strong.

Shoving someone prone and grappling them. Speed becomes 0 and they have the prone condition. Normally that's a two attack combo that does no damage. Requiring action investment from a character. With your buff, that ability is speeding up that combo with no sacrifice of investment. This isn't necessarily a problem, just something to be aware of.

[Bjarkmundur]

@paladinn - Yeah I really disliked the entire line of thinking, and made it available to everyone.

@BoutsofInsanity - I had honestly forgotten about that paragraphs :0
Your examples are fantastic, and this is exactly what I'm after. The original pronlem was "my players aren't using these, is there anything I can do take me these kinds of actions more inticing?"

I'm just a DM who wants his martial players to do less "and I hit the guy". I already have a second approach to this, which is to allow each player to select either Maneuvers or Metamagic at 1st level. Same principle, different solution.

Doesn't grappling or shoving already just count as a single attack? Anyone with extra attack can grapple and shove in the same turn, right? But I think I see your point. I should definitely limit it to 1/turn or 1/round.

[BoutsofInsanity]

@paladinn - Yeah I really disliked the entire line of thinking, and made it available to everyone.

@BoutsofInsanity - I had honestly forgotten about that paragraphs :0
Your examples are fantastic, and this is exactly what I'm after. The original pronlem was "my players aren't using these, is there anything I can do take me these kinds of actions more inticing?"

I'm just a DM who wants his martial players to do less "and I hit the guy". I already have a second approach to this, which is to allow each player to select either Maneuvers or Metamagic at 1st level. Same principle, different solution.

Doesn't grappling or shoving already just count as a single attack? Anyone with extra attack can grapple and shove in the same turn, right? But I think I see your point. I should definitely limit it to 1/turn or 1/round.

I've found two ways.

A. Do it to the players. Have the enemies do things more than attacks. "The Orc charges towards you, he locks his weapon with yours and attempts to wrench it away." Then roll dice and see what happens. The players will ask questions and you can then explain how the rules work and what they can do. IE: They aren't limited to what's written down. THIS IS NOT A BOARD GAME.

B. Literally show them out of game and the benefits of doing so. Take some time to walk through shove and grapples before the game starts. The mechanical advantages of each. Especially the prone/grapple combo and say, this is how we adjudicate actions outside of explicit damage. We will use this approach as a model for other things.

That's what I've found works. I promise when you shove an orc prone, (Though this can be difficult) and then grapple them so they have

1. Disadvantage on all attacks against you
2. Can't stand up without using an action to break the grapple
3. You have advantage on all melee attacks against them

The players will do this all the time.

[paladinn]

@paladinn - Yeah I really disliked the entire line of thinking, and made it available to everyone.

@BoutsofInsanity - I had honestly forgotten about that paragraphs :0
Your examples are fantastic, and this is exactly what I'm after. The original pronlem was "my players aren't using these, is there anything I can do take me these kinds of actions more inticing?"

I'm just a DM who wants his martial players to do less "and I hit the guy". I already have a second approach to this, which is to allow each player to select either Maneuvers or Metamagic at 1st level. Same principle, different solution.

Doesn't grappling or shoving already just count as a single attack? Anyone with extra attack can grapple and shove in the same turn, right? But I think I see your point. I should definitely limit it to 1/turn or 1/round.

Why don't you just ban the Champion and make anyone who wants "just a fighter" go Battlemaster? Or fold some Champion features into the BM?

[Amechra]

On the other side of the DM's screen, I feel like a big reason why people just spam "I stab the guy" is that that's usually the most obvious way to make progress towards winning a fight. So part of the solution is just to make taking other actions more profitable.

Unfortunately, two things stand in your way: first of all, Sharpshooter makes it so "the melee characters have to flush people out of cover so that the ranged characters can pick them off" isn't really a thing. Additionally, Extra Attack and the fact that most bonus action attacks require you to take the Attack action end up making it so that spamming the Attack action is legitimately your strongest option.

You can fix that first part by using a LOT of full cover (or nerfing Sharpshooter a bit) — that second bit, however, is where you're going to have to houserule a bit.

EDIT: Just to give an example of what I mean by "make other actions more profitable", I played in an adventure a while back where we were going through a tree-top village. Shoving enemies off the side of the platforms would remove them from the fight, so we ended up doing a lot of maneuvering enemies into positions where we could just body-check them out of the fight.

[BoutsofInsanity]

@paladinn - Yeah I really disliked the entire line of thinking, and made it available to everyone.

@BoutsofInsanity - I had honestly forgotten about that paragraphs :0
Your examples are fantastic, and this is exactly what I'm after. The original pronlem was "my players aren't using these, is there anything I can do take me these kinds of actions more inticing?"

I'm just a DM who wants his martial players to do less "and I hit the guy". I already have a second approach to this, which is to allow each player to select either Maneuvers or Metamagic at 1st level. Same principle, different solution.

Doesn't grappling or shoving already just count as a single attack? Anyone with extra attack can grapple and shove in the same turn, right? But I think I see your point. I should definitely limit it to 1/turn or 1/round.

I just read the second part.

Yes, the way these maneuvers work is by replacing an attack within the attack action. It reads like this.

Level 11 Fighter is within five feet of their target. They take the Attack Action and now have three attacks they can make.

They replace the first attack with a grab. Opposed Athletics versus Acrobatics/Athletics of the target. On a success the target is grabbed and speed becomes 0

They then replace the second attack with a shove (Prone). Again opposed Athletics versus Acrobatics/Athletics of the target. Upon success the target is prone and still grabbed. The Fighter is not prone.

Having succeeded in their shove/grapple attempts, the fighter moves half their speed dragging the target closer to the party. They then use their final 3rd attack from the attack action to make an attack with advantage against the prone/grappled target.

On the opponents turn they have only a few options.

Either cast a spell, take the attack action and have all attacks made with disadvantage, or take the escape grapple ACTION in order to break the grapple. They can't stand up because their speed is 0.

If they do not break the grapple the fighter on their turn can maintain the grapple for free, and drag the target half their speed again, and take the attack action again, making three attacks with advantage on the target.