Upick 2 Thread 2: Revenge of the Upick

[Unavenger]

Previous Thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637467-Upick-2-Electric-Boogaloo)

Day 4

This phase will end on 29/10/2021 at 21:00 GMT.


Welcome to another Upick, a weird twist on regular Mafia in which you pick your own role. How does this work, exactly? Read on!

(If you were in the previous Upick, tl;dr it works exactly the same as before.)

Mafia, AKA Werewolf, is a game in which members of an uninformed majority, known as the Town, who don't know anyone else's alignment but their own, try to find members of an informed minority, called the Mafia, who know who is one of them and who isn't. The game starts at "Day", and players vote for who they think - or are pretending to think - is a member of the Mafia. Whoever gets the most votes is eliminated at the end of the Day. After each Day is one Night, in which people activate abilities that they may have access to, and the Mafia can choose one person between them to eliminate. The game ends when only one faction remains, or nothing can prevent this from happening. Days and Nights are 48 hours each.
The execution vote will kill the person with the most votes, counting the last vote that is not crossed out. For example, Avatarvecna, Xihirli, Avatarvecna is a vote for Xihirli, not AvatarVecna. Tied votes will kill the person who was first to get to at least that many votes the last time they did so. For example, if Xihirli is at 4 votes, then AvatarVecna is at 4 votes, then Xihirli drops to 3 votes and goes back up to 4 votes, AvatarVecna will die, not Xihirli.
You may vote for No Execution. No Execution is calculated the same way as any vote for a specific person, but choosing not to vote is not counted at all. For example, four votes for No Execution and four votes for AvatarVecna is resolved like any other tie, but if there are four votes for AvatarVecna and four people not voting at all, AvatarVecna will die.
No early day end or "Hammer" vote is used, even if more than half of people end up voting for the same person at some point. Days are always 48 hours.
Some abilities may require a public broadcast that you are using them. I will resolve them as soon as possible; if you have an ability that won't be useful at the end of the day, using it near the end of the day might be inadvisable! Do not fake using abilities requiring a public broadcast (Such as REVEAL: INNOCENT CHILD or DAYVIG: XIHIRLI). This means you, Vecna and Valmark. Anyone doing so will die, and also lose the game even if their faction would otherwise win the game.
Kill flavours may tell you something interesting about how someone died, and what faction did it.
All actions are given a priority number. First goes first, last goes last. Generally, this tends to follow Natural Action Resolution, which is to say, abilities that can't possibly be affected by another ability go first.
Either you'll get a faction QuickTopic because you're the Mafia, or you won't, because you're not, and will have to use your personal QuickTopic. You can't get more QuickTopics unless you have an ability that says you can, so no chatting with your fellow players behind the scenes.
Upicks are so named because you pick your role!

When the game is in the preparation stage - that is, after everyone has signed up to the game, just before Day 1, you will have a chance to send me two character concepts. These character concepts can be whatever you like so long as it's board-appropriate and otherwise just obviously not yikesy in any other way (be reasonable about this); the first concept should be your first preference, and please link an explanation for both concepts if they're something I might not know about. Other Upicks I've seen have featured anime characters, tanks, and the concept of YouTube Music videos as characters so do whatever you like.

Please don't use other real people - board members or otherwise - as characters, partly because yikes and partly because I don't want to have to write the sentence "AvatarVecna's role was Xihirli".

I will roll up the list of who is which faction before I create your character roles, so if you use a character who's actually a mafia member or actually a werewolf, you may still end up as town. I will then assign abilities that I think are appropriate to one of your chosen characters. I will try to use the first one, but if there's some problem with them I'll use the second one instead. They will match as best as I can make them while also (a) making sense within the context of Mafia, (b) not being very terribly overpowered, and (c) not being horrible to play with.

Abilities I promise I won't be using are:


Cults and other alignment changing abilities;
Dreaming gods, false seers, inventors who don't know what their inventions do, and other hidden/random chance abilities;
Jesters (a role which wins the game by being executed);
Antisocial, Flagbearer and other modifiers which mess with who wins and loses the game to a significant extent;
Effects such as death millers which lie about death-reveal information;
"Janitor", "Cannibal" and other effects which can prevent deaths from being revealed.
Effects such as Beloved Princess which mess with the day/night order;
Effects that restrict how a player can post other than by killing them;
"Enabler" or "Switch" effects that can shut off a specified type of role (rather than roleblocking a specific player);
"Bus Driver", "Transporter", "Transmuter", "Mind-controller" "Mindslaver", "Witch", "Lightning Rod", "Mirror" or other names for a variety of effects which force someone to target someone other than their intended target;
"Normalizers" or other effects which permanently alter other people's roles (short of killing them);
"Phantom Queen", "Reviver", "Resurrectionist", "Retributionist" or other effects which change how death works for players other than yourself.


However, this does not mean that any of these won't show up:
"Doublevoter", "Loved", "Hated" and other modifiers that can change the number of votes flying around or the number needed to kill someone;
"Gladiator" or other effects which limit who is a valid target for a vote;
"Godfather", "Framer", "Lawyer", "Psychotrooper" or other effects which cause someone else's investigation to provide misleading information;
"Lover" and other roles that can cause a player to die when a condition is met;
Roles which return the truth or falsehood of an arbitrary statement;
"Copier" or "Illusionist" abilities which copy someone else's ability and use it on another specified target;
"Parity cop" or "Parity seer" roles, which provide the same result for two members of the same faction, but no indication of which faction yields which result (so it might yield "Winter" for town and "Summer" for Mafia);
"Restless Spirit" or "Vengeful" roles which change how death works for you;
"Medium" or "Necromancer" roles which can talk in dead chat while alive.

Recruitment is open!

Players so far:


AvatarVecna
Captain Cap
Snowblaze
Batcathat
SupaGoof
CaoimhinTheCape
Taffimai
gac3
Book Wombat
Fext
Moonfly7
Xihirli
BladeScape
Elenna
Metastachydium
Rogan


Backup players:


EmmyNecromancer


Living Players


Snowblaze
SupaGoof
Taffimai
Moonfly7
BladeScape
Metastachydium
Rogan


Dead Players:


CaoimhinTheCape, Cecil Palmer, executed Day 1
Xihirli, Skye “Blue Angel” Zaizen, pinned to the wall with a crossbow bolt Night 1.
Fext, the Flying Pumpkin, thrown out the airlock Day 2.
Captain Cap, the Pied Piper of Hamelin, executed Day 2.
gac3, Melinda Gordon, shot with a pistol and beaten to death Night 2.
Book Wombat, Mr Hyde, committed suicide Day 3.
Batcathat, The Machine, executed Day 3.
AvatarVecna, Haley Starshine, torn up by a monstrous beast Night 3.
Elenna, Sherlock Holmes, ritually sacrificed Night 3.

[Book Wombat]

Two threads, has this happened before?

[Rogan]

Here is a prophecy that's nearly guaranteed to be right, even without mech backup: This game will be remembered!
Needing a new thread before day 3 has even started.

[AvatarVecna]

What fun!!

[Metastachydium]

Two threads, has this happened before?

I started scanning through the archives for an exact answer, but I was too lazy to finish the job, so all I'm going to say is that I bet it's kind of rare.

[AvatarVecna]

I'll look into it after I die.

[Rogan]

I'll look into it after I die.

Not if I die first!

About 1 hour till a lot of questions are answered.

[AvatarVecna]

Not if I die first!

About 1 hour till a lot of questions are answered.

Unless we're both roleblocked. :smalltongue:

[Elenna]

Yay, second thread!

[AvatarVecna]

Ironic, the only time this game I could maybe successfully use my "kill somebody roleblocked" power, and I'm using something else.

[Metastachydium]

I'll look into it after I die.

Unlikely.


Unless we're both roleblocked. :smalltongue:

Unlikely.


Yay, second thread!

UPick 2: where everybody's playing the long game.

[Rogan]

UPick 2: where everybody's playing the long game.

And where I can't keep my mouth shut. At least, I won't be the top poster in this thread as well.

Unless......

[Metastachydium]

And where I can't keep my mouth shut. At least, I won't be the top poster in this thread as well.

Unless......

[Panicked stare.] Bladescape! Forget the wolves! Kill Rogan! QUICK!

[Rogan]

I lied to you. I was searching a game in two threads before dying and I found one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?169137-Witchunt-V1-0-Game-2-(WW-Variant))

[AvatarVecna]

[Panicked stare.] Bladescape! Forget the wolves! Kill Rogan! QUICK!

Haha you fools. Everything on D2 was an elaborate distancing attempt by Rogan and I.

[Rogan]

Haha you fools. Everything on D2 was an elaborate distancing attempt by Rogan and I.

And it's too late to do anything about it. You are Dooomed!

- - - Updated - - -

By the way, here is another game taking up 2 threads. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?166300-Werewolf-Classic-XII)
So, they seemed to be more common in the old times, but it had happened before. But this might be the match with the lowest player count to hit get that many posts.

[gac3]

Well, Snow has been hinting at having info, so this claim seems fine. 5 powers feel like a lot, but if they have limited usages or other restrictions, this seems possible, see AV.
It makes me a bit worried about Gac, his power seems so weak in comparison to everything else.
He almost definitely has access to the dead chat, but if this is everything he has, that's seriously weak compared to other powers.
It's nothing to worry about just now, but if there is no new info tomorrow, the surviving players could think about this again.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and I have a guess for your abilities, which would explain some things.

- - - Updated - - -

Change of my night kill vote from
Batcathat & Moonfly
to
Book Wombat & Taffamai following AVs argument that one of them is guaranteed to be lying unless Unavenger included two Survivors.

Oh, Blades? Could I nominate every living player for your kill, so you can pick your target on your own if you don't like any of the votes?


To be fair it might be my fault that my power is so weak. Between not really thinking about my choices ahead of time and not getting the message or whatever, I picked someone I thought would be cool but was probably too obscure and OP sounding and then threw on the name of a second character who basically the only thing I knew about them was "Isn't their gimmick speaking to the dead? Having access to the dead chat would be cool" but I also was banking on townies dying first and figured I'd be trying to grab reads from seers and what not.

- - - Updated - - -

Also yay! Second thread. It's a first for me. So it's going to be remember that time Rogan had a power that seemed OP and then AV rage quit and then Gac3 started spewing nonsense that made AV unrage quit because nothing made sense and we all got so confused that we went to a second thread? Yeah good times.

[Rogan]

To be fair it might be my fault that my power is so weak. Between not really thinking about my choices ahead of time and not getting the message or whatever, I picked someone I thought would be cool but was probably too obscure and OP sounding and then threw on the name of a second character who basically the only thing I knew about them was "Isn't their gimmick speaking to the dead? Having access to the dead chat would be cool" but I also was banking on townies dying first and figured I'd be trying to grab reads from seers and what not.

Yeah, my first concept was similar.
But being a prophet definitely paid for itself.



Long live the Queen!
Oh, wrong game. Sorry, about that. :smalltongue:
Maybe the wolves will keep me alive now to accuse me later?
Town, please don't screw this up now...

[Unavenger]

NIGHT 2 END

Gac3 was brutally murdered last night. They were shot with a pistol. They were also beaten to death. Gac3's role was Melinda Gordon.


Gac3, you are Melinda Gordon, a MEDIUM and a member of the TOWN. You win the game if you kill every hostile character or nothing can prevent this from happening, and at least one member of your team is alive.

You have ONE ability:

Ghost Whisper (Passive): You can read and post in dead chat AT ANY TIME.

DAY 3 START

The day will end at 21:00 GMT, 25/10/2021.

[Rogan]

What? Still alive? How?
And why did they brutally murder Gac?

AV, what was your result? Because mine is... strange.

[Metastachydium]

Tell us! Tell us!

[Book Wombat]

Ouch, that was an overkill. So the Survivor colour is cyan while the Serial Killer's orange. I hope I'm cleared.

[Metastachydium]

On an unrelated note: looks like Taffimai is not the killer.

- - - Updated - - -


Ouch, that was an overkill. So the Survivor could is cyan while the Serial Killer's orange. I hope I'm cleared.

Why would you be cleared?

[Book Wombat]

Why would you be cleared?

If the Prophecy works. Should've added "soon".

[Rogan]

Ouch, that was an overkill. So the Survivor colour is cyan while the Serial Killer's orange. I hope I'm cleared.

Book, you are not on my list of scum. But... did you beat someone to death?

[Metastachydium]

Book, you are not on my list of scum. But... did you beat someone to death?

So. Who is on the list?

[Book Wombat]

Book, you are not on my list of scum. But... did you beat someone to death?

I didn't kill gac3 if that's what you're asking.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah I think "interewring" is a good way to describe my results. Like, "interesting enough that I'm doubting the power worked properly".

- - - Updated - - -

Out of curiosity, were you also told you're a bad guy?

[Metastachydium]

[Sighs.] Stop being so mysterious!

[Rogan]

The only thing not surprising is, Supagoof is on the list. But everyone else..? It can't be true, can it, AV?

[Metastachydium]

Out of curiosity, were you also told you're a bad guy?

Wait, what?

[AvatarVecna]

The only thing not surprising is, Supagoof is on the list. But everyone else..? It can't be true, can it, AV?

I got Rogan, Taffamai, and Supagoof.

[Rogan]

No, but I was told you are.
Which could be true, but feels wrong.
And Taff is supposed to be evil as well.

But if he is, the color is so freaking strange...

[AvatarVecna]

I think the redacted part of Rogan's powered screwed with one of us, possibly both of us.

- - - Updated - - -

We both got goof and taff then...

[Metastachydium]

That's what you get for trying to cheat, I suppose. Or you both are Evil.


♣

Until then, though: shall we kill Supagoof?

[Book Wombat]

I am confused.

[Rogan]

I think the redacted part of Rogan's powered screwed with one of us, possibly both of us.

- - - Updated - - -

We both got goof and taff then...

Yeah. For what it is worth, I got my result immediately after night ended. Both times. So it's unlikely to be from another player, unless they got my question right away.

[Metastachydium]

I never really expected this to work as intended.

[AvatarVecna]

...hang on. I know your answer is at least 1/3 wrong, and I'm so freaking sure you're Trustworthy that I know mine is at least 1/3 wrong. And everybody figures BW was more suspect than Taff. You know your power has a redacted bit. What if the redacted bit is "your power returns only false answers"?

[Rogan]

I am confused.

Yeah, I am confused as well.
Taff simply doesn't make sense... he would have to get two different kill colors, but that's unlikely to be allowed.

[Batcathat]

Huh. I did think the Ultimate Question did seem too good to be true, but I was more expecting something along the lines of you guys getting an error message. I'm looking forward to seeing what that redacted part says after the game that can explain this result.

Also, the wolves and I'm assuming the serial killer really wanted gac dead? What's that about?

[AvatarVecna]

"AvatarVecna/Captain Cap/Supagoof/gac3/Book Wombat/Xihirli/bladescape/Taffamai

All wolves in that group?"

You received "Yes". CC, gac, Xi, and Blade are confirmed town. Taffamai and BW are both claiming Neutral. And I know I'm town. That would mean that either Supagoof is the sole remaining wolf, or the answer you got is wrong.

- - - Updated - - -


Huh. I did think the Ultimate Question did seem too good to be true, but I was more expecting something along the lines of you guys getting an error message. I'm looking forward to seeing what that redacted part says after the game that can explain this result.

Also, the wolves and I'm assuming the serial killer really wanted gac dead? What's that about?

If my theory is correct, scum knew the power doesn't produce true answers, so they weren't worried about us. They were more worried about the townie who can talk to confirmed townies.

[Metastachydium]

...hang on. I know your answer is at least 1/3 wrong, and I'm so freaking sure you're Trustworthy that I know mine is at least 1/3 wrong. And everybody figures BW was more suspect than Taff. You know your power has a redacted bit. What if the redacted bit is "your power returns only false answers"?

The likelihood of that possibility largely depends on what a "false seer" is.

[AvatarVecna]

I never really expected this to work as intended.

You know what, you're right.


Unlikely.



Unlikely.



UPick 2: where everybody's playing the long game.

And I think I've got a theory as to why.

[Metastachydium]

You know what, you're right.



And I think I've got a theory as to why.

Enlighten me.

[Elenna]

Well that did seem too OP to work.

Supa I could believe. Rogan I could maybe believe before this, but the fact that he gave AV the power and it seemed to give similar results for both of them makes me doubt it. If wolf!Rogan really thought his power worked like that I can't imagine he'd actually give AV the right power name. AV I can't really see as a wolf, and Taffi can't be wolf or SK unless the "beaten to death" was a non-SK kill.

I'm also very confused by the fact that they both didn't get killed or roleblocked. Which implies that somehow wolves knew it wouldn't work like that?

BTW, bladescape, who did you aim at?

[Rogan]

What if the redacted bit is "your power returns only false answers"?

If this was the case, I would be quite annoyed.
I mean, having a hidden drawback is fine, but always being wrong?
It would be next to useless. I would have to learn this is the "problem" of the power first before I could get any real advantage...

Did someone target you tonight to protect you?

[Elenna]

Even with wolves not shooting at AV or Rogan, I wouldn't have picked gac as the target. I guess they were probably trying to avoid baners.

[AvatarVecna]

If this was the case, I would be quite annoyed.
I mean, having a hidden drawback is fine, but always being wrong?
It would be next to useless. I would have to learn this is the "problem" of the power first before I could get any real advantage...

Did someone target you tonight to protect you?

I was only aware of getting targeted with a kill the first time because it pinged my passive self-bane. I don't have a general power to detect kill attempts on my person.

[Metastachydium]

I'm also very confused by the fact that they both didn't get killed or roleblocked. Which implies that somehow wolves knew it wouldn't work like that?


The dogs only have one kill, and coordination between them and the killer is unlikely, so even if everyone was unprotected and the dogs/killer can void, there never really was a guarantee they can get both of them.

[AvatarVecna]

Enlighten me.

You're already lit.

I'm gonna do some Halloween shopping, then come back and do some proper ISOs.

[Book Wombat]

I was only aware of getting targeted with a kill the first time because it pinged my passive self-bane. I don't have a general power to detect kill attempts on my person.

But it showed all flavours for the Night it activated?

[Metastachydium]

You're already lit.

Don't play day 1 bladescape with me. Are you accusing me of something?

[AvatarVecna]

But it showed all flavours for the Night it activated?

It showed the flames, but my passive doesn't affect roleblocks AFAIK. Idk what to tell you.

- - - Updated - - -


Don't play day 1 bladescape with me. Are you accusing me of something?

I've got about 40 hours to get my thoughts together. You'll get them when I'm ready to give them, and not a second before.

[Rogan]

Well that did seem too OP to work.

Supa I could believe. Rogan I could maybe believe before this, but the fact that he gave AV the power and it seemed to give similar results for both of them makes me doubt it. If wolf!Rogan really thought his power worked like that I can't imagine he'd actually give AV the right power name. AV I can't really see as a wolf, and Taffi can't be wolf or SK unless the "beaten to death" was a non-SK kill.

I'm also very confused by the fact that they both didn't get killed or roleblocked. Which implies that somehow wolves knew it wouldn't work like that?

BTW, bladescape, who did you aim at?

If I were a wolf, I would have lied about my first question anyway. I mean, why would I ask a question about my team?

So, assuming my power is wrong all the time, the wolves would know this. This would explain why they didn't try to stop us.
But the killer picked gac as well. Why?

[Book Wombat]

I'm going to laugh if the Mafia team turns out to be CaoimhinTheCape, Rogan and, AvatarVecna.

[Metastachydium]

If I were a wolf, I would have lied about my first question anyway. I mean, why would I ask a question about my team?

So, assuming my power is wrong all the time, the wolves would know this. This would explain why they didn't try to stop us.
But the killer picked gac as well. Why?

They thought we took measures to protect everyone important, including either you or AV?

[Rogan]

I was only aware of getting targeted with a kill the first time because it pinged my passive self-bane. I don't have a general power to detect kill attempts on my person.

But... you have a power to detect abilities used on you? You told us about Xihirlis block.

[AvatarVecna]

But... you have a power to detect abilities used on you? You told us about Xihirlis block.

Like I said, idk what to tell you. I just reported exactly what occurred in my QT.

[Metastachydium]

I'm going to laugh if the Mafia team turns out to be CaoimhinTheCape, Rogan and, AvatarVecna.

I think I'll be screaming instead. Or something.

[Elenna]

If I were a wolf, I would have lied about my first question anyway. I mean, why would I ask a question about my team?

So, assuming my power is wrong all the time, the wolves would know this. This would explain why they didn't try to stop us.
But the killer picked gac as well. Why?
That's a good point - wolves probably knew your first answer was wrong, so they didn't bother to stop you.

My guess is the killer thought, like I did, that gac's power wasn't that good and wolves probably wouldn't shoot them, since obviously the SK doesn't want their kill to overlap with other kills.

- - - Updated - - -

If all Rogan's answers are false (something I'm not convinced of), would his first question mean that all the wolves are not in that list? Or just that some of the wolves are not in that list?

[Metastachydium]

That's a good point - wolves probably knew your first answer was wrong, so they didn't bother to stop you.


Again, depending on whether the Goof is a dog or not, they could very well think they have a 50 to 100% chance that they'll waste their kill.

[AvatarVecna]

I think I'll be screaming instead. Or something.

I'll say again, if I had rolled wolf again, I would've auto'd.

[Metastachydium]

That's a good point - wolves probably knew your first answer was wrong, so they didn't bother to stop you.

My guess is the killer thought, like I did, that gac's power wasn't that good and wolves probably wouldn't shoot them, since obviously the SK doesn't want their kill to overlap with other kills.

- - - Updated - - -

If all Rogan's answers are false (something I'm not convinced of), would his first question mean that all the wolves are not in that list? Or just that some of the wolves are not in that list?

Well, there were, in fact, a whole lot of non-wolves there and we are yet to catch a dog who was on it.

- - - Updated - - -


I'll say again, if I had rolled wolf again, I would've auto'd.

Yeah, but isn't not believing anything you say considered good manners hereabouts?

[Rogan]

So... let's disregard AV and me for a moment...

Why would we have Taff on our list? She can't be the one who was beating gac or she would need to have two different kill colors. Which I strongly doubt.
Unavenger it would be nice if you could confirm that every faction/person only has one kill color.

Adding her to the list makes sure we can disregard it right away.

[Metastachydium]

Teff (…) He

(Taffimai is a she.)
More on topic, Unavenger said (I think) that this is not a bastard game. I don't think the killer can be Taffimai.

[Book Wombat]

This game should've been called "UPick II: Even Crazier".

[Rogan]

(Taffimai is a she.)
More on topic, Unavenger said (I think) that this is not a bastard game. I don't think the killer can be Taffimai.

I'm terribly sorry, Taffimai... I hate learning new names. And on mobile, the gender symbol doesn't show that prominent.

Yeah. It's absolutely horrible... And the wolves are cruel. The should have killed me instead of forcing me to live through all this confusion.

Has anybody gained new info this night? Info we can actually trust?

- - - Updated - - -

Book I have a question for you.
You have hinted at having a power that has some relation to Role Names.
Can you tell me what this power is and what it does?

[Taffimai]

I'm terribly sorry, Taffimai... I hate learning new names. And on mobile, the gender symbol doesn't show that prominent.
That's ok, my gender is not a core part of my identity. Truth be told, I believe the world will be a better place when we ditch gendered pronouns and only use "they" or another agreed neutral for each other, but I accept that we aren't there yet and that for some people, it is an important distinction. Here are two kittens hugging:

https://www.photos-public-domain.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/hugging_kittens-600x450.jpg
Rogan's power gave the correct answer from the point of view of our states of mind: Rogan thinks AV crossed a line, AV feels nobody appreciates her, and I think the prevailing opinion on neutrals is anti-social. Everybody's town somewhere in the multiverse!

Anyway: Taffimai

[Elenna]

Just checking, what exactly was the question you asked? Would the correct answer include all neutrals or just the SK?

[Book Wombat]

Book I have a question for you.
You have hinted at having a power that has some relation to Role Names.
Can you tell me what this power is and what it does?

...what? I feel confused. Did I? I don't have one.

[Rogan]

Just checking, what exactly was the question you asked? Would the correct answer include all neutrals or just the SK?



Who are all the players in this game with an anti-town role?


AVATARVECNA, TAFFIMAI and SUPAGOOF are all of the players in the game with an anti-town role.

So, unless you think that the Survivor is anti town, it should be wolves and killer.

- - - Updated - - -


...what? I feel confused. Did I? I don't have one.

When I asked you about your victory condition, you said it was a bit odd (what is this Pokémon).

When I asked you later, you said this was about your power. I'm not sure about the exact wording, but I will look for the quotes later.

[Unavenger]

Unavenger it would be nice if you could confirm that every faction/person only has one kill color.

Every faction only has one kill colour, every kill colour has only one faction, every person has only one kill colour, and kill colours may be shared by more than one person.

[Rogan]

The usual victory condition of "survive"? Or something fancy?


1. It's a bit oddish (cue 'What's That Pokémon!'} but basically the the usual.

(I missed the quote asking about the meaning, it was after the second survivor claim)


Oh that, it's to do with my powers so I left it out. At the cost of seeming like fext I'm not going to say more.

- - - Updated - - -


Every faction only has one kill colour, every kill colour has only one faction, every person has only one kill colour, and kill colours may be shared by more than one person.

So, we have at least 4 factions. That's the number of kill colors we have seen.
Town and wolf are clear.
The simple option would be, there is a SK and a Survivor.

But we have multiple Survivor claims, so either one of them is lying or there are two survivors... Would they share the faction?

- - - Updated - - -

Other observations... AV was shot with a pistol night 1, so the mafia wanted her dead.

But she told us about the anti SK power...
Arrrr... *confused screaming*

- - - Updated - - -


AvatarVecna - Town read.*
Snowblaze - Town read.
Batcathat - probably not SK*
SupaGoof - confused read
Taffimai - Survivor or tinfoil SK
Book Wombat - Neutral claim with lots of open questions...
Moonfly7 - Town? evidence pending
BladeScape - locked town
Elenna - town read*
Metastachydium - not SK.
Rogan - utterly useless, except for creating noise.


* hinted at victory condition

So... right now, I would consider Taffimai (for her self vote and to 100% prevent a Town lynch), Book (for having too many open questions and 100% non town), maybe Goof (not that happy) and Rogan.

Lynching me would clear my intentions and given my track record, it would not hurt town that much... and I would not get a headache by trying to clean up this mess.

- - - Updated - - -

Please don't leave me alone here... I am afraid of the dark

So... what would be the implication of my power being right?
AV would have to be lying. Goof would have to be a wolf, which is not that hard to believe.

Taffimai would have to be the SK.
Book would have to be lying about either being Survivor or not killing Gac OR there would have to be another alignment involved who killed gac.

Book? Please don't lie to me... are you a survivor who needs to get the role right for some players before he can win?

[AvatarVecna]

So, unless you think that the Survivor is anti town, it should be wolves and killer.

If my guess is correct, there are two ways it could be "falsified":

1) We received a true answer for the "opposite" of the question we asked.

2) We received a false answer for the question we asked.

If 1 were true, the opposite question would be "Who are all the players in this game with a pro-town role?", and we only got three answers, one of whom is a confirmed neutral and survivor claimant (a non-pro-town role). The idea that there are only two townies remaining is patently absurd, so either your power is random, it is wrong in a specific but complicated way I haven't thought of yet, or the second possibility (false answer for our real question) is the actual case.

We received a false answer for the question we asked. Thus, the names we received are neither Serial Killers nor Mafia members. As corroborating evidence for this, you and I both received Supagoof and Taffamai - if we had received different names from each other, we'd have even more people who we could confirm as non-anti-town. The overlap exists to minimize the number of people you and I could clear last night.

So now we return to the previous question:



AvatarVecna/Captain Cap/Supagoof/gac3/Book Wombat/Xihirli/bladescape/Taffamai

All wolves in that group?

The answer is yes. All living wolves are in this group. This is my night action speaking!

AvatarVecna: - (as far as y'all know)
Captain Cap: confirmed town
Supagoof: -
gac3: confirmed town
Book Wombat: claimed neutral, and I believe it
Xihirli: confirmed town
bladescape: confirmed town
Taffamai: confirmed neutral

So unless y'all believe the game started with two wolves, for Rogan's first question to be correct, it'd have to be AV and Goof as final wolves. Except...I know I'm not a wolf. And I'm sure we didn't start with only two wolves. So the answer to the first question must've been wrong. And since I believe that Supagoof is cleared by the second question(s), that leaves the following people as potential mafia members:

Snowblaze
Batcathat
Moonfly7
Elenna
Metastachydium

Let's look at gac3's big reveal:


Sorry Rogan. I lied. I'm a necromancer. I can provide full quotes after work if desired but for now you get the quick version

I have one and only one power. Access to the dead chat.

I told Cape when he died that I was a neutral and that he should help me with my power. All I would need is a single name each night. I told him I was the person from iZombie and that each night I can pick one person and if they die that night, I get to eat their brain fresh and get a single use of one of their powers. This was all, utter rubbish.

I knew this would be a long con but I didn't see how else to effectively use my power, especially when the first death was a wolf. I wasn't even going to come forward yet but this whole mess with AV apparently being a townie and Rogans lie made me feel confident to come forward.

Cape fed me barely anything at first. He said it would be end of night before I got a name and I wasn't sure I could trust it even once I got it. The first name I was given for the wolf kill, Elenna. Then it changed to Avatar Vecna. Made them my purple votes in a plan to try to signal the wolves that they could message me and manipulate my vote. As the deal was I vote on a pro wolf wagon in exchange for these names.

They didn't catch on so I asked Cape if there was a "no incriminating quote" I could take word for word from their chat to draw their attention. He gave me the quote about how in Red Atlantic Cruise, we weren't wolves, just town with extra win condition. The quote was true and I checked Cape against the list to make sure he didn't just say it. Only five of us were spies in that game and in this game. Me, xi, aV, Snow, and Elena. So I assumed it was Xi, with Snow as my backup. Then Xi died. So it's snow unless wolves wanting to kill Elenna was a lie.

Then I was given the code word Absolutely because wolves finally figured it out. So I used it a bunch to make sure they didn't miss it. I was going to wait things out. I genuinely thought Fext was a wolf because I concluded that he would want AV dead. Then when AV announced their near death, I trusted that name.

Then it was quiet until this Rogan nonsense started. I asked the wolves publically through code and Cape privately if I should do anything about Rogan. That I had a plan for undermining him. If they said yes I should, I was going to put myself. If they said no, I was going to see what happened because why would Wolf!Rogan do that when I know AV isn't a wolf.

Then Cape even went as far as telling me to be like book and just grab some popcorn. So I assume book is also a wolf.

gac is correct that the line about the RAC game could only be "we" if it came from one of five people. The five possibilities are gac3 (dead town), Xihirli (dead town), AvatarVecna (confirmed town, or at least I know that's a fact, and the line doesn't actually make sense coming from me), Snowblaze (lock town), and Elenna (?). My beef with Rogan started because I'd found what looked like Rogan, Elenna, and Cao all defending each other D1, but that kinda got swallowed up by the question bomb/ragequit nonsense and forgotten about.

Let me set a scene for you: Cao is feeding info to gac3. Scumteam wanted to give towncred to a scumbuddy, but they still wanted to give an explanation for why somebody else was dead come morning, so they pulled a trick: they gave a scumbuddy name first, and then gave the name of their actual target. AV dying would "confirm" that Cao was telling the truth, and make gac trust his info more. Cao then gives gac a line from the scumchat, except he screws up and there's only five people who might've spoken the line (the ones who played RAC). Cao plays it cool and hopes he hasn't just ratted out a teammate. gac comes into thread and makes his big bomb drop statement, scum!Elenna sees it. She saw the RAC statement earlier, and she knows only a few people could've said it. She could try and convince people it's AV, but that won't last long and she's already on record trusting AV and Rogan. That leaves two options: shade gac, or shade Snowblaze. Really, town!Elenna has these options as well, except it would be less shade and more just...investigation. Trying to poke at the story to see if gac sticks to it.

And when you read through her ISO, one thing stands out: her arguments that gac can't be trusted are kinda weak and don't really have her attention behind them. The one thing she's really focused on and hammering at is the quote, because gac thinks it's a smoking gun that proves Rogan or AV is bad actually. Rogan just assumed gac was lying, but Elenna seemed to believe him, and is just trying to convince him (and readers) that a reading where she's guilty isn't possible. This sticks her in a situation where she has to either smear the name of the person giving the info, the person everybody is townreading, the person she's been defending for hours and hours, a person who died in the night, or herself.


Maybe I'm just too tired but I don't understand what this means at all. You saw a quote that someone said in the wolf chat? How? Is that your power? Why do you think only the people you listed could say that quote? Maybe the last question depends on what the quote is. Can you tell us what it is?


Honestly, same. I don't feel like major personal arguments happen all that often, for what that's worth. But given the last two games I understand if you want to leave.

Anyways, bed now.

"quote what quote idk what youre talking about and definitely didnt know about it until you said it just now"


In theory, I don't see anything wrong with gac making a deal with the wolves, since presumably town!gac wouldn't actually intend to fulfill the deal.

In practice, the issue with it is that it requires both gac and cao to be telling the truth.


Okay, so I was wrong about AV only getting pissed off as town. Although it's also worth noting that in that game, a) they weren't a wolf, and b) the thing they were getting pissed about was specifically that they were trying to help town.


Uh. Wow. That is extremely OP if you can just ask any question. And it makes me somewhat more suspicious of your claim, since the rules only said there might be a role that could get true/false answers, not any answer.

"you can only trust this if you trust cao, a wolf, so you cant trust this"

"wow rogan that power is so strong it makes me question your locked-in towniness"


Hmm yeah that makes some sense.

I'm leaning towards voting Cap at this point, since the tiny probability of Rogan getting his power off is so good. High risks, high rewards. Gonna think about it a bit more.

I'm not inclined to vote Snow right now based only on something a wolf supposedly said. Although this is doing a pretty good job of fueling my "but what if D1 was w/w" paranoia.

@fext I agree, only value in lynching gac is if we think he's a wolf, no value powers-wise.

"i dont think gac is right about the RAC thing, but if he is it must be Snowblaze"


So if you think Cao was lying about killing AV, what makes you think the RAC quote was truthful?


Well that happened. So much for a quiet last hour or so of the day :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -

Oh day ended earlier than I thought.

"you cant even trust cao, the quote is probably fake"


Yeah, it's true that I find it hard to imagine Cao coming up with that specific of a lie.

One thing that I can maybe imagine (this is pure speculation and I'm not saying that I think it's likely) is that someone in wolf chat said "in RAC they were town teams and not two mafia" or something similar that doesn't imply that the speaker played RAC, and Cao adjusted it slightly.

Incidentally, your quote says "we were town teams with extra victory conditions", or something like that, right? (Would you mind posting it again?) That sounds to me like the speaker was actually one of the Russians or Americans, which AV was not.

I don't think AV was faking being pissed off but it's possible that they were genuinely pissed off that Rogan had an OP power, yeah.


A survivor with a day-kill? That sounds suspiciously like AV's claim last game when they were actually the SK. And it's notable that Taffimai only did this after AV used up their SK-kill.

Not saying I 100% believe Wombat yet, but it is a little suspicious.

Taffimai, why did you pick Fext to kill? Did you actually think they were the SK? Can you win with the SK (if you know?)


Rogan already said he can't ask someone else to ask a question for him.
(Also, y'know, the proposed ultimate question is pretty clearly the best option.)


See my questions above. Specifically, you've been claiming Fext was an SK for a while, why wait until right at EOD?

(Also I don't think Rogan should waste his power just checking you, and I don't expect any other seers we might have would need a statement like that. But I guess it can't hurt.)

"okay maybe the quote isnt entirely fake, but it could have a single word changed that cao wouldn't have thought would need changing, and if he changed that word then the quote doesn't implicate anybody in particular, especially not me"


Taffimai keeps coming up with responses that sound reasonable and make sense from a neutral POV. Book Wombat, on the other hand, has all these small contradictions.

I know they might be protected, but I don't have any strong wolf candidates right now, so I'd rather hit someone who is definitely not town even if it means the kill might be wasted. Wasting the kill is better than hitting a townie.
But for a non survivor-claim target, Supagoof is a decent choice.

I'm nearly certain gac has deadchat access, if only because faking Fext's writing style would be a pain. Plus that bayesian thing sounds legit (and I do actually know what it means). A few possibilities:
1. gac is a wolf necromancer and none of the things he described happened. He's adjusting/redacting Fext, Xi, and Cap's posts to not mention this. That seems unlikely as it would be a lot of work to make the fake posts sound natural and have the right writing style.
2. gac is a wolf necromancer, he and Cao faked their discussion to make him look town. Not impossible, although it would be weird. But this whole game is weird.
3. gac is town but Cao lied to him about the RAC quote. Would make sense, although it's a weirdly specific lie to come up with.
4. gac is town and Cao was telling the truth with the RAC quote. This requires Rogan to be lying except in the weird world where AV is a wolf, Cao lied about the kill target but not the quote, and AV talked as if they were Russian or American i. RAC even though they weren't.

"the four possibilities are gac is guilty, gac is guilty, Cao lied in a very specific way to implicate me (which is stupid because im innocent), or rogan is lying (or everyone is lying to frame me)"

Of course, now we have a plausible explanation: she knew Rogan wasn't lying, but rather mistaken. situation 4 is the correct one, it's just that Rogan received false information from his question.

Once more, with feeling: Elenna.

But wait, there's more!



I'll look into it after I die.

Unlikely.


Unless we're both roleblocked. :smalltongue:

Unlikely.
I never really expected this to work as intended.

Read through that. This is about an hour to EoN. How would you expect a townie to react? With absolute, unshakeable confidence that the twin seers were protected? Not a hint of concern, about (for example) that protection resting on the shoulders of a couple untrustworthy characters? Where are the nerves? They're not there. They didn't react that way. And read in the light that rogan's first answer was reverse-true, and scum knew that immediately...it's kinda obvious.

These posts are the distilled Essence of TMI. This read weird when it was initially posted, but after my revelation on Rogan's power, suddenly it makes perfect sense. These are taunts from a villain in disguise, who always knew full well the plan would fail, and knew full well that wolves would leave us alive and not bother blocking us because they thought the power would lead us to chase down red herrings, and is announcing their full knowledge that we have no reason to fear death or blocks...because why waste powers stopping us from asking, when the answer benefits scumteam so much?

I have to eat, and sleep. When I wake up, I'm ISOing meta in full. Seeing how they reacted to mine, and Rogan's, and gac's big reveals. Looking for any single solitary scrap of information that could point one way or the other.

Oh, and I'm willing to die again to prove that I'm trustworthy. Whether that's as a lynch, or a late-day suicide, I'm not picky.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and as part of the "the answers are wrong" thing, that means Taffamai is the Survivor, and Book Wombat is either mafia or (more likely) Serial Killer.

[Rogan]

If my guess is correct, there are two ways it could be "falsified":

1) We received a true answer for the "opposite" of the question we asked.

2) We received a false answer for the question we asked.

If 1 were true, the opposite question would be "Who are all the players in this game with a pro-town role?", and we only got three answers, one of whom is a confirmed neutral and survivor claimant (a non-pro-town role). The idea that there are only two townies remaining is patently absurd, so either your power is random, it is wrong in a specific but complicated way I haven't thought of yet, or the second possibility (false answer for our real question) is the actual case.

We received a false answer for the question we asked. Thus, the names we received are neither Serial Killers nor Mafia members. As corroborating evidence for this, you and I both received Supagoof and Taffamai - if we had received different names from each other, we'd have even more people who we could confirm as non-anti-town. The overlap exists to minimize the number of people you and I could clear last night.

So now we return to the previous question:



AvatarVecna: - (as far as y'all know)
Captain Cap: confirmed town
Supagoof: -
gac3: confirmed town
Book Wombat: claimed neutral, and I believe it
Xihirli: confirmed town
bladescape: confirmed town
Taffamai: confirmed neutral

So unless y'all believe the game started with two wolves, for Rogan's first question to be correct, it'd have to be AV and Goof as final wolves. Except...I know I'm not a wolf. And I'm sure we didn't start with only two wolves. So the answer to the first question must've been wrong. And since I believe that Supagoof is cleared by the second question(s), that leaves the following people as potential mafia members:

Snowblaze
Batcathat
Moonfly7
Elenna
Metastachydium

Let's look at gac3's big reveal:



gac is correct that the line about the RAC game could only be "we" if it came from one of five people. The five possibilities are gac3 (dead town), Xihirli (dead town), AvatarVecna (confirmed town, or at least I know that's a fact, and the line doesn't actually make sense coming from me), Snowblaze (lock town), and Elenna (?). My beef with Rogan started because I'd found what looked like Rogan, Elenna, and Cao all defending each other D1, but that kinda got swallowed up by the question bomb/ragequit nonsense and forgotten about.

Let me set a scene for you: Cao is feeding info to gac3. Scumteam wanted to give towncred to a scumbuddy, but they still wanted to give an explanation for why somebody else was dead come morning, so they pulled a trick: they gave a scumbuddy name first, and then gave the name of their actual target. AV dying would "confirm" that Cao was telling the truth, and make gac trust his info more. Cao then gives gac a line from the scumchat, except he screws up and there's only five people who might've spoken the line (the ones who played RAC). Cao plays it cool and hopes he hasn't just ratted out a teammate. gac comes into thread and makes his big bomb drop statement, scum!Elenna sees it. She saw the RAC statement earlier, and she knows only a few people could've said it. She could try and convince people it's AV, but that won't last long and she's already on record trusting AV and Rogan. That leaves two options: shade gac, or shade Snowblaze. Really, town!Elenna has these options as well, except it would be less shade and more just...investigation. Trying to poke at the story to see if gac sticks to it.

And when you read through her ISO, one thing stands out: her arguments that gac can't be trusted are kinda weak and don't really have her attention behind them. The one thing she's really focused on and hammering at is the quote, because gac thinks it's a smoking gun that proves Rogan or AV is bad actually. Rogan just assumed gac was lying, but Elenna seemed to believe him, and is just trying to convince him (and readers) that a reading where she's guilty isn't possible. This sticks her in a situation where she has to either smear the name of the person giving the info, the person everybody is townreading, the person she's been defending for hours and hours, a person who died in the night, or herself.



"quote what quote idk what youre talking about and definitely didnt know about it until you said it just now"



"you can only trust this if you trust cao, a wolf, so you cant trust this"

"wow rogan that power is so strong it makes me question your locked-in towniness"



"i dont think gac is right about the RAC thing, but if he is it must be Snowblaze"



"you cant even trust cao, the quote is probably fake"



"okay maybe the quote isnt entirely fake, but it could have a single word changed that cao wouldn't have thought would need changing, and if he changed that word then the quote doesn't implicate anybody in particular, especially not me"



"the four possibilities are gac is guilty, gac is guilty, Cao lied in a very specific way to implicate me (which is stupid because im innocent), or rogan is lying (or everyone is lying to frame me)"

Of course, now we have a plausible explanation: she knew Rogan wasn't lying, but rather mistaken. situation 4 is the correct one, it's just that Rogan received false information from his question.

Once more, with feeling: Elenna.

But wait, there's more!



Read through that. This is about an hour to EoN. How would you expect a townie to react? With absolute, unshakeable confidence that the twin seers were protected? Not a hint of concern, about (for example) that protection resting on the shoulders of a couple untrustworthy characters? Where are the nerves? They're not there. They didn't react that way. And read in the light that rogan's first answer was reverse-true, and scum knew that immediately...it's kinda obvious.

These posts are the distilled Essence of TMI. This read weird when it was initially posted, but after my revelation on Rogan's power, suddenly it makes perfect sense. These are taunts from a villain in disguise, who always knew full well the plan would fail, and knew full well that wolves would leave us alive and not bother blocking us because they thought the power would lead us to chase down red herrings, and is announcing their full knowledge that we have no reason to fear death or blocks...because why waste powers stopping us from asking, when the answer benefits scumteam so much?

I have to eat, and sleep. When I wake up, I'm ISOing meta in full. Seeing how they reacted to mine, and Rogan's, and gac's big reveals. Looking for any single solitary scrap of information that could point one way or the other.

Oh, and I'm willing to die again to prove that I'm trustworthy. Whether that's as a lynch, or a late-day suicide, I'm not picky.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh yeah, and as part of the "the answers are wrong" thing, that means Taffamai is the Survivor, and Book Wombat is either mafia or (more likely) Serial Killer.

I like this world a lot more than the extremely tinfoil world where Taffamai somehow is the killer and AV is an extremely ruthless wolf.

But I would like to check Book Wombat first. If the theory is right, we remove one kill from the game.

Something from day 1:



If I flip Town:
Metastachydium, AvatarVecna, Snowblaze, Elenna are checked for hostile motive. Keep an eye on Rogan.

If I flip Evil:
Check everyone I could have pushed to 3 votes for scum. That includes: Xihirli, Rogan, CaoimhinTheCape. Clear Elenna, AV, and Meta.

Translating that to reads:
Rogan, Snowblaze as Town (I don't know that I could be more clear on that).
Elenna as Town lean, not as strong as Rogan/Snow.
SupaGoof as No Info. (literally nothing)
AV, Xi, Captain Cap as Neutral. (lack of useful content)
Blade was a small Wolf Lean.
BCH, Book Wombat as Wolf lean.
gac3 vote (implying I think he's Wolf).


Rule of 3 on the clear list in case of a flip?
Elenna near the top of the read list, in case he somehow survives?


Good point. I checked an older QT and I could post there.
Unavenger, I'm curious, are you able to post in my personal QT? Alternatively, could you maybe just send me a new QT? Sorry.

Last time, I said I would not try to read this. But let's give it a try...
Scum!Elenna making a show of being unable her personal QT, which she totally would have as town. What are the chances of exactly one QT not working, while every other did?

[moonfly7]

I'm going to laugh if the Mafia team turns out to be CaoimhinTheCape, Rogan and, AvatarVecna.
I would applaud them if that were the case, but if it were, AV would have had no reason for the rage quit, and I don't believe it was faked.

I'm terribly sorry, Taffimai... I hate learning new names. And on mobile, the gender symbol doesn't show that prominent.

Yeah. It's absolutely horrible... And the wolves are cruel. The should have killed me instead of forcing me to live through all this confusion.

Has anybody gained new info this night? Info we can actually trust?

- - - Updated - - -

Book I have a question for you.
You have hinted at having a power that has some relation to Role Names.
Can you tell me what this power is and what it does?

First things first, I'm laying this all out on the table now. Snowblaze is going to have answers for us. She should have, if she was smart, checked out the roles of one of the others we found suspicious. Also, is anybody suspicious that we have literally no idea what Snow's ability is? Not that I'm suspecting her, but still.

If Meta is a threat, we might be screwed. And I may have messed up bigtime. But I'm pretty sure Meta is safe for now.


And here is my honest belief about the Ultimate Question, and I know my hunches have been off, a lot, but I've finally started to tell what my different intuitions mean. If I had trusted that nagging voice in my head before, I wouldn't have been wrong multiple times. But there's no nag here. So here's what I think happened:

I don't know what the text to your power is, but I think having two Prophets created some kind of feedback, causing you to get each others names. I think, that if that wasn't the case, you would have both gotten a list of incorrect names, not each others. I think we should, for now, vote the Taff and the Goof wagon, and I still firmly believe in the Bookwombat one. That's just my thoughts on it though.


_____Update______

Still unsure about the Taff/Goof thing, and Taff is supposedly cleared by the blue text. So it's still weird for me, hence the BW vote. No nagging feeling this time, it feels solid. Thats my vote, unlikely to change unless someone has big news.

[Rogan]

That's what you get for trying to cheat, I suppose. Or you both are Evil.


♣

Until then, though: shall we kill Supagoof?

No cheat involved, but using the tools we were given.
Turns out, they were not that OP, but might still be useful.

Vote count
Supagoof (1): Metastachydium
Taffimai (1): Taffimai
Elenna (1): AvatarVecna
Book Wombat (2): Rogan, moonfly7

Not voting: Everyone else :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -

Moon in case you didn't know this, in this part of the forum, you can post twice in a row and they will automatically merged, with the updated line inserted.

[moonfly7]

No cheat involved, but using the tools we were given.
Turns out, they were not that OP, but might still be useful.

Vote count
Supagoof (1): Metastachydium
Taffimai (1): Taffimai
Elenna (1): AvatarVecna
Book Wombat (2): Rogan, moonfly7

Not voting: Everyone else :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -

Moon in case you didn't know this, in this part of the forum, you can post twice in a row and they will automatically merged, with the updated line inserted.

Wait really? I thought everyone was doing that manually. That...I feel very dumb.

[Rogan]

Wait really? I thought everyone was doing that manually. That...I feel very dumb.

Don't feel dumb. It's confusing, since it doesn't work this way in other parts of the forum. After seeing it used multiple times by different players, I finally asked how they where doing it and was surprised about the answer. It's such a useful feature for this kind of game, it's amazing. It should be advertised a bit better.

[AvatarVecna]

Wait really? I thought everyone was doing that manually. That...I feel very dumb.

Yup, forum thing. I think if there's an hour between the posts they don't get merged. Otherwise you get the little "updated" line

[moonfly7]

Ok, that is ridiculously helpful.

[Rogan]

Ok, that is ridiculously helpful.

Glad to be finally able to help. (Okay, the vote counts might have helped as well, but otherwise... if Elenna really is a wolf, she must have laughed so hard when I jumped AV in her defense...)

[bladescape]

I was not blocked.

I ended up targetting Book Wombat because I forgot to change targets.

So: Book Wombat was resistant to night kills.

I want to say Book is SK.

Elanna/Meta/BatCat contain all wolves.

Maybe one sneaking out.

(Meta added because I liked AV's point)

[Elenna]

@AV of course I'm questioning the quote. From my POV if it's true it requires you or Snow to be a wolf, both of whom I'm townreading (not to mention that it doesn't really make sense for you to say it that way). So it just makes more sense for it to be incorrect somehow.

Pressure vote on Meta, at least until they answer AV's questions.

If they have a good explanation I'll likely switch to BW. All power stuff aside, they have an extremely sketchy claim for reasons discussed in the night. And they're guaranteed non-town.

- - - Updated - - -

Although, didn't Snow say they had a mechanical reason to townread Meta? Snow, want to share? (Or was that moonfly?)
(edit: nevermind, yeah, that was moonfly)

[moonfly7]

@AV of course I'm questioning the quote. From my POV if it's true it requires you or Snow to be a wolf, both of whom I'm townreading (not to mention that it doesn't really make sense for you to say it that way). So it just makes more sense for it to be incorrect somehow.

Pressure vote on Meta, at least until they answer AV's questions.

If they have a good explanation I'll likely switch to BW. All power stuff aside, they have an extremely sketchy claim for reasons discussed in the night. And they're guaranteed non-town.

- - - Updated - - -

Although, didn't Snow say they had a mechanical reason to townread Meta? Snow, want to share? (Or was that moonfly?)

Mechanical reason to read me. Meta was cleared of being the serial killer only, by AV's pull the lever ability.

Also, how sure are you and AV that Meta is a threat? I want exact numbers as soon as possible because I may have made a series of errors.

- - - Updated - - -

If he is, you know, actually Mafia.

[Snowblaze]

Morning.

Rogan, I didn't receive anything related to my POE being right night one.

So...uh, why is gac3 dead? Also I'm guessing the beater-to-death is the Serial Killer. Which implies that since the colour is different to Taffimai's, she's not the Serial Killer. So either there's some weird third neutral around or Taffimai is Survivor and BW is scum of some kind.

Taffimai, why are you self-voting?

AV... I'm not prepared to clear Supagoof off this. I think we need to kill Wombat today, and then I'm going to build a new POE which hopefully won't be horribly wrong.

The Elenna case makes sense, surface-level at least, but there's a lot of fact-checking and rereading I need to do to have any confidence in wolf!Elenna.

I. Still think Meta is town. But there's now paranoia there as well, because what if my wall of waffle was right? Note to self: check out that quote I was clearing them for, work out how clearing it actually is.

I don't think you should read into the QT thing too much, Rogan.

Okay, let's talk about the Moonfly thing. Night one I was approached by a dark patron who gave me a one-shot scry that let me determine a player's role name and alignment. I picked up from the hints Moonfly gave day two that it was probably them, and they confirmed they knew what I was talking about. Hence the townread.

Unfortunately I decided that gac3 was unlikely to be nightkilled and would be very useful to have a clear on. So, uh, I don't have any useful results to share. Sorry about that.

(Also my powers will remain secret until I have important revelations to make. Which I don't.)

Anyway, Book Wombat.

- - - Updated - - -

Right. What do we have?

Moonfly is town because they gave me a scry. If they're a wolf then that's extremely anti-their-win-con and if they're SK then why does an SK have a role that doesn't help them win in any way?

bladescape is town because he has a town kill colour.

Taffimai is Survivor because she has a different kill colour to the SK kill and the mafia kill.

Book Wombat is scum because if Taffimai is the Survivor he must be fakeclaiming Survivor.

That's all I can be 100% sure of without rereading stuff. AV, Rogan and Meta are all probably town atp, though.

Pending checking of those: Supagoof/Batcathat/Elenna is my POE once BW is dead.

[bladescape]

I'm good with Book Wombat

[Batcathat]

I was kind of hoping y'all would've figured out the meaning of the not-so-Ultimate Answer while I slept. Oh well. If we just ignore both the first and second result of Rogan's power for a moment, it does seem like Book Wombat looks the most shady.

[Snowblaze]

I was kind of hoping y'all would've figured out the meaning of the not-so-Ultimate Answer while I slept. Oh well. If we just ignore both the first and second result of Rogan's power for a moment, it does seem like Book Wombat looks the most shady.

Do you think he's more likely to flip SK or wolf?

If he's SK, who are the wolves?

If he's wolf, who are his partner(s) and the SK?

[Batcathat]

Do you think he's more likely to flip SK or wolf?

If he's SK, who are the wolves?

If he's wolf, who are his partner(s) and the SK?

I'd guess SK, mostly because a killer claiming Survivor seems like a more natural play than a wolf doing it. (Or could that be the reason why a wolf would do that?)

As for the wolves, AV's case against Elenna sounds pretty good but I should probably read through it again. I still have a bad feeling about Supagoof. I can't think of a third one at the moment, so maybe it's just the two of them?

[Snowblaze]

Agreed on BW being more likely SK.

My first reaction was “it’s convenient that you’re wolfreading the other members of my POE” but then I realised there isn’t really much reason to wolfread anyone else.

Except maybe Meta... actually, what did you make of AV’s Meta case?

[Book Wombat]

Saaad thiiings haaappen iiin liiife...
Good luck to everyone then. I didn't fake-claim but I can't prove it. I might as well go on my own terms so...
PULL THE LEVER: BOOK WOMBAT

Was a fun game.

[Batcathat]

Agreed on BW being more likely SK.

My first reaction was “it’s convenient that you’re wolfreading the other members of my POE” but then I realised there isn’t really much reason to wolfread anyone else.

Except maybe Meta... actually, what did you make of AV’s Meta case?

AV does have a good point about Meta sounding way too confident. At the time I interpreted it as Meta having some sort of power they'd help town and were bragging about it. I've mostly had a towny feeling about them so far, but that's admittedly not much. Possible wolf, but for mostly gut related reasons I'd put them below Elenna and Goof on my list.


Saaad thiiings haaappen iiin liiife...
Good luck to everyone then. I didn't fake-claim but I can't prove it. I might as well go on my own terms so...
PULL THE LEVER: BOOK WOMBAT

Was a fun game.

That sounds bad. Good luck with whatever it is.

[Book Wombat]

That sounds bad. Good luck with whatever it is.
Nothing in real life if that's what you meant, luckily. Was referring to the game.

[Batcathat]

Nothing in real life if that's what you meant, luckily. Was referring to the game.

Ah, okay. That's good. :smallsmile:

[Book Wombat]

This situation is kinda funny because my character/pick also commited suicide.

[Rogan]

Saaad thiiings haaappen iiin liiife...
Good luck to everyone then. I didn't fake-claim but I can't prove it. I might as well go on my own terms so...
PULL THE LEVER: BOOK WOMBAT

Was a fun game.

You know what would be serious funny?
When you are bluffing right now and could copy AVs power in order to either commit suicide legally or prove you are not the killer.

Can you tell us something about your power or do we need to wait till you flip?
Oh, and if you are a survivor, we know there have to be multiple neutral roles. Or you lied when you denied killing our necromancer.



About Elenna, if she is a wolf, she was bussing day 1. Would she do so? Now, I said I was hoping for a non-lethal check, so they would know/expect that Cao could not live long. So a bus would not be as expensive. And as far as I know, she is not generally opposed to bussing.

[Book Wombat]

I am a Survivor... or a Serial Killer.
But yeah, I did kill gac3, I think the only time I lied was when I denied it.

[Rogan]

I am a Survivor... or a Serial Killer.
But yeah, I did kill gac3, I think the only time I lied was when I denied it.

Hmmm... if you hadn't lied, I might have been willing to check Taffimai first, in order to see if my power could have been valid after all.

But yeah, this train has departed.
I'm waiting for your flip, if you are innocent (except for lying) I would want to check Taff, Goof, AV. In that order, continue to check until we hit non-scum.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, and do you have a power regarding role names? If yes, what is it?

[Book Wombat]

I do not, I was just making a pun on "oddish".

[Snowblaze]

O...kay then.

Rest in peace, Wombat. Unless you're somehow bluffing and are going to survive this.

(Note: I'm kind of ill today so I'm not going to be doing masses of solving, even though I do now need to. Hopefully I'll be up to it tomorrow.)

[Rogan]

I do not, I was just making a pun on "oddish".

Ah, okay. I guess this pun went right over my head, so no CHA bonus to damage against me :smalltongue:

- - - Updated - - -


O...kay then.

Rest in peace, Wombat. Unless you're somehow bluffing and are going to survive this.

(Note: I'm kind of ill today so I'm not going to be doing masses of solving, even though I do now need to. Hopefully I'll be up to it tomorrow.)

Get well soon.

[Snowblaze]

Thanks. Hopefully I will!

[AvatarVecna]

Even with the suicide threat, it's difficult to get really worked up over the possibility of being wrong. Like...

"Okay, so I know Taff's kill worked on somebody voting them, which is a very survivor thing, and I know that I killed somebody in the night with a different neutral color that's fluffed in a much more serial killer fashion, but I promise that actually it's the other way around."

Ultimately, we're checking one of y'all today, and if that one's survivor, the other one is dead meat immediately after. That's truth regardless of anything going on with me or Rogan or Goof: we have two conflicting survivor claims, both with kills under their belts, but ultimately losing the real survivor still doesn't hurt town.

[Book Wombat]

I am a Survivor... or a Serial Killer.


No one noticed the white text? I can be one or the other, that was basically my power.

[Rogan]

No one noticed the white text? I can be one or the other, that was basically my power.

I noticed you did this. For the second time, in fact.
But... it doesn't really make sense? Why go for killer when the survivor is both safer and easier to get a victory? And how would you interact with a power like pull the lever or the block of Captain Cap?

I don't know what you would gain from lying right now but your claims are seriously weird...

[Metastachydium]

Back from the beuty sleep! (Only to find I'm apparently a top candidate for being an Evil dog now.)
So. AV is wrong and Batcathat is kinda-sorta right. If you go back and check, I also said it is impossible for bladescape to die at night. I could afford being confident, because I made that happen. I'm a continuous doctor. I make people immune to death at night. Forever. Not even I can revoke it. Bladescape is currently under my protection, so I knew he's effectively impervious to night kills, including Supagoof's claimed beastlike power (because that would be a death at night).
As for AV, I had to be confident there. I wanted the dogs to know there's probably a baner other than the Goof and that baner is watching over AV (do note that I never said Rogan will be fine). Of course, since my night 2 target was bladescape, this was a bluff. Hence the definitive need for ridiculous amounts of (feigned) confidence. If I were to give an explanation for how can I protect both AV and bladescape, I would have told the truth: I can protect multiple people at once. But that never came up and I wasn't going to bring it up.

[Book Wombat]

I noticed you did this. For the second time, in fact.
But... it doesn't really make sense? Why go for killer when the survivor is both safer and easier to get a victory? And how would you interact with a power like pull the lever or the block of Captain Cap?

I don't know what you would gain from lying right now but your claims are seriously weird...

It's a Strange Case, isn't it? Just wait for my death.

[Rogan]

It's a Strange Case, isn't it? Just wait for my death.

You know what makes this worse?
I don't know what would be more weird, your claim being true or it being a lie...

- - - Updated - - -


Back from the beuty sleep! (Only to find I'm apparently a top candidate for being an Evil dog now.)
So. AV is wrong and Batcathat is kinda-sorta right. If you go back and check, I also said it is impossible for bladescape to die at night. I could afford being confident, because I made that happen. I'm a continuous doctor. I make people immune to death at night. Forever. Not even I can revoke it. Bladescape is currently under my protection, so I knew he's effectively impervious to night kills, including Supagoof's claimed beastlike power (because that would be a death at night).
As for AV, I had to be confident there. I wanted the dogs to know there's probably a baner other than the Goof and that baner is watching over AV (do note that I never said Rogan will be fine). Of course, since my night 2 target was bladescape, this was a bluff. Hence the definitive need for ridiculous amounts of (feigned) confidence. If I were to give an explanation for how can I protect both AV and bladescape, I would have told the truth: I can protect multiple people at once. But that never came up and I wasn't going to bring it up.

If this were right and working as advertised, the powers would be so freaking different in scope and power, it would be extremely strange...

[Book Wombat]

You know what makes this worse?
I don't know what would be more weird, your claim being true or it being a lie...

- - - Updated - - -



If this were right and working as advertised, the powers would be so freaking different in scope and power, it would be extremely strange...

1. That's me!
2. Maybe it's a one-shot power?

[Rogan]

1. That's me!
2. Maybe it's a one-shot power?

Well... it does make sense for your claimed role. (Signature again) But... didn't Unavenger say they would select the power after alignment? So... you were the killer, but had the power to become survivor?
Argh... this game is soo freaking weird. And isn't there a rule about no alignment changing stuff?

Maybe. But AVs 1 shots seem weaker.

[Snowblaze]

Yup. This game is Weird(TM).

Meta's claim seems a strange one for a wolf to make. Unless they're planning to use it as an explanation for "why am I/why is my consensus town wolf partner still alive".

Then again, the most likely "consensus town wolf partner" is me. And I'm not a wolf.

...eh, Meta is probably town anyway. Going with that until I feel well enough to go quote hunting and ISOing.

[AvatarVecna]

The strongest argument that Meta could be telling the truth is that this is a really good explanation for why town has "or nothing can prevent that from happening" in their wincon. The ability to permanently protect people from NKs is pretty substantial. It's suspiciously conveniently powerful in a "we dont wanna kill this person off too quickly" way, but it helps build a plausible scenario where town is basically guaranteed to win no matter what scum does.

[Metastachydium]

2. Maybe it's a one-shot power?

The funny thing is, I did recently (as in at dawn) acquire a one-shot power I'll have to use or lose next night. Somehow. It has nothing to do with my main power or my role, for that matter. It's also kinda creepy, but Unavenger confirmed that it's not an Evil thing.
My main power, on the other hand is not a one-shot thing:

Metastachydium, you are <REDACTED>, a CONTINUOUS NON-REFLEXIVE DOCTOR and a member of the TOWN. You win the game if you kill every hostile character or nothing can prevent this from happening, and at least one member of your team is alive.

You have ONE ability:

<REDACTED> (Protection Priority): Once per NIGHT you may choose another living player: they are IMMUNE to dying at night.


♣

[Question from me:] Another thing that is not entirely clear to me: how many people can I <REDACTED> at once? Just one (revoking the protection if I pick a new target) or multiple? And if the latter, can I<REDACTED> or it's a once in the <REDACTED>, always in the <REDACTED> deal?

[Answer:] Your ability is exactly as written: each night you can choose a player, and they will be immune to dying at night , and the next night, you can pick someone else, and they're immune too: no ifs, no buts, no refunds.

[Rogan]

The funny thing is, I did recently (as in at dawn) acquire a one-shot power I'll have to use or lose next night. Somehow. It has nothing to do with my main power or my role, for that matter. It's also kinda creepy, but Unavenger confirmed that it's not an Evil thing.
My main power, on the other hand is not a one-shot thing:

Your creepy 1 shot power is moons action. Unless there is another player who can make those strange deals...

And your first claim was formulated in a weird way. It sounded like you claimed you could protect multiple people at once.

AV? You had a power giving you info when targeted, can you explain the scope of this power again?

[Metastachydium]

Your creepy 1 shot power is moons action. Unless there is another player who can make those strange deals...

Wait, did I miss something? Moonfly can empower people with stuff?


And your first claim was formulated in a weird way. It sounded like you claimed you could protect multiple people at once.

I can protect multiple people at once. Currently, I'm protecting two (my night 1 target and bladescape).

[AvatarVecna]

AV? You had a power giving you info when targeted, can you explain the scope of this power again?

I have no such power. The first night, I was told I was set on fire, and shot with a pistol. I was likely told about the pistol because of my "one-time auto-self-bane" ability. I have no idea why I was informed about being set on fire. I have said this multiple times already.

[Snowblaze]

Wait, did I miss something? Moonfly can empower people with stuff?


They haven't explicitly stated it, but they've hinted at it pretty strongly. That was the Reason I townread them day two (I was their night one target.) And they have also dropped hints that they targeted you last night, so it seems a safe assumption.

[Taffimai]

Votes (not upside down this time)

Meta Supagoof (1)
Taffimai Taffimai (1)
AV Elenna (1)
Rogan Wombat (1)
Moonfly Wombat (2)
Elenna Meta (1)
Snow Wombat (3)
Blade Wombat (4)
BatCat Wombat (5)


No one noticed the white text? I can be one or the other, that was basically my power.

Ok I'm guessing... Harvey Dent?

- - - Updated - - -

Reasoning: Day 1 you took your serum and were survivor, Day 2 you didn't and got access to serial killer powers.
Ren to Red
BEGIN RED STOP PROJECT SCALE THREE SLASH FIVE COMPLETE COMMA REQUEST COLON WORM COMMA TRIGGER COMMA SERUM COMMA ANTIDOTE STOP TRANSPORT BROKEN COMMA ANOMALOUS WEATHER STOP ACTIVATE ECHO STOP REN END


RED TO REN
REQUEST ACCEPTED STOP TRIGGER AND ANTIDOTE SENT STOP START PROJECT COMPASS STOP SENT SWORD STOP FIND CHICKEN STOP ALCHEMIST HAS FRIENDS STOP RED END

[Rogan]

I have no such power. The first night, I was told I was set on fire, and shot with a pistol. I was likely told about the pistol because of my "one-time auto-self-bane" ability. I have no idea why I was informed about being set on fire. I have said this multiple times already.

I'm sorry. This game has so many confusing twists and turns, I must have imagined seeing this, based on the info you gave us about knowing about the block and the kill. But I was so sure about having seen this somewhere...
So... great. Now I can't trust my reads, my power and my memory.
Can anybody please daykill me, to provide their own alignment? This seems to be the only way I can still be useful...

[moonfly7]

The funny thing is, I did recently (as in at dawn) acquire a one-shot power I'll have to use or lose next night. Somehow. It has nothing to do with my main power or my role, for that matter. It's also kinda creepy, but Unavenger confirmed that it's not an Evil thing.
My main power, on the other hand is not a one-shot thing:


Wait, did I miss something? Moonfly can empower people with stuff?


Indeed I can! Hence why I was concerned about you being suspected of being a hostile, I'd just handed you a loaded gun. And yeah, creepy would describe my powers pretty well. There's gonna be an ominous death scene when you use them, and it is gonna look a LOT like an SK or Mafia kill, but it's just my gifted kill ability.

Still got a few more tricks up my sleeve, but as shown, each can only operate once.

[Elenna]

I think I will say now that I saw Supagoof target Rogan last night. Which makes me feel better about him, since he did actually target Rogan as agreed, and his power was at least not something obviously detrimental.


You know what would be serious funny?
When you are bluffing right now and could copy AVs power in order to either commit suicide legally or prove you are not the killer.

Can you tell us something about your power or do we need to wait till you flip?
Oh, and if you are a survivor, we know there have to be multiple neutral roles. Or you lied when you denied killing our necromancer.



About Elenna, if she is a wolf, she was bussing day 1. Would she do so? Now, I said I was hoping for a non-lethal check, so they would know/expect that Cao could not live long. So a bus would not be as expensive. And as far as I know, she is not generally opposed to bussing.
Can't prove this but I'm pretty reluctant to bus unless it's pretty clear that my partner is doomed eventually and I have their permission. I don't think Cao was pretty clearly doomed when I made my vote.


Back from the beuty sleep! (Only to find I'm apparently a top candidate for being an Evil dog now.)
So. AV is wrong and Batcathat is kinda-sorta right. If you go back and check, I also said it is impossible for bladescape to die at night. I could afford being confident, because I made that happen. I'm a continuous doctor. I make people immune to death at night. Forever. Not even I can revoke it. Bladescape is currently under my protection, so I knew he's effectively impervious to night kills, including Supagoof's claimed beastlike power (because that would be a death at night).
As for AV, I had to be confident there. I wanted the dogs to know there's probably a baner other than the Goof and that baner is watching over AV (do note that I never said Rogan will be fine). Of course, since my night 2 target was bladescape, this was a bluff. Hence the definitive need for ridiculous amounts of (feigned) confidence. If I were to give an explanation for how can I protect both AV and bladescape, I would have told the truth: I can protect multiple people at once. But that never came up and I wasn't going to bring it up.
Hmm, okay. Seems a little OP, although that's partly mitigated by a) the large number of kills going about, and b) the possibility of making a wolf NK-immune.

AV has a point about the "or nothing can prevent it", although I think there are other possible explanations for that line.

My current POE (without having gone back to reread/ISO anything):

AvatarVecna - Reads pretty strongly town to me. It's also worth noting that AV stated their Ultimate Question answers before Rogan did, and then Rogan confirmed he had something similar. So if AV is a wolf then either AV actually did ask that question (which seems rather a waste of a night power, from wolf!Av's POV) or Rogan is also wolf (which I find very hard to believe given their interaction D2).
Snowblaze - Looks very towny from D1. My only worry is that (from my POV) the RAC quote seems to imply at this point that Snow must be a wolf. I could see D1 being w/w, maybe, but I just can't imagine wolf!Snow bussing a partner so early for no reason.
Batcathat - I can't recall anything in particular they've said that struck me as towny. They did break a Caoimhin/Snow tie 5 hours before EOD D1 by voting Cao, so that's town points, but also by tie rules Caoimhin would have died anyways. Plus we're running out of people who didn't vote Cao so at this point it's pretty clear that at least one wolf bussed, likely both. Wolf lean based mostly on lack of other suspects.
SupaGoof - Based on their posts, I'm pretty neutral on them. But if AV's interpretation of Rogan's power is correct, that would clear them. Plus he targeted Rogan as mentioned above. Slight town lean.
Taffimai - Probably an actual Survivor. Cleared of being wolf/SK based on kill colour.
Book Wombat - SK/Survivor role, probably going to die by suicide soon
Moonfly7 - Town lean based on giving Snow a scry, plus it's hard to imagine a wolf defending Cao quite so hard D1.
BladeScape - Cleared by kill colour
Metastachydium - Claims a strong power which at least makes sense of their statements last night. Does wolf!Meta put their first random vote on their partner and then stay there the entire day despite all arguments made against other people? I guess it's not impossible, at this point, but it's less likely than BCH bussing, I think. Slight wolf lean mostly due to lack of other suspects
Rogan - I'm less suspicious of them at this point, as I can't believe wolf!Rogan would actually let AV use that power. Leaning town.


Changing my vote to Batcathat.



Ok I'm guessing... Harvey Dent?

- - - Updated - - -

Reasoning: Day 1 you took your serum and were survivor, Day 2 you didn't and got access to serial killer powers.
Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, I'm thinking. That also involves a serum, and the "Strange Case" that BW mentioned earlier (with the capital letters), would be the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, the title of the book.
(Also it's apparently in their signature now.) (Edit: nevermind, either they removed it or I misunderstood what Rogan was talking about.)

- - - Updated - - -


I think I will say now that I saw Supagoof target Rogan last night. Which makes me feel better about him, since he did actually target Rogan as agreed, and his power was at least not something obviously detrimental.

Forgot to say - this isn't all my power does, but I'd rather reveal the rest of it later (obviously if I'm likely to get lynched I'll reveal it).

[Taffimai]

SupaGoof - Based on their posts, I'm pretty neutral on them. But if AV's interpretation of Rogan's power is correct, that would clear them.
Taffimai - Probably an actual Survivor. Cleared of being wolf/SK based on kill colour. Plus he targeted Rogan as mentioned above. Slight town lean.


I assume you meant to add those sententces to Supagoof, I didn't target Rogan last night.

[Elenna]

I assume you meant to add those sententces to Supagoof, I didn't target Rogan last night.

Yes, thank you. Fixed now.

[Snowblaze]

Mmm... yeah, I'm thinking there's exactly one wolf in Elenna/Batcathat rn. I don't have reasons to townread either except their Caoimhin votes (obligatory "I haven't ISOed either of them, which I really need to do") and as Elenna says, we're running out of non-Caoimhin-voters.

General question: given the above premise, which one is more likely to be a wolf?

- - - Updated - - -

And if that's the case then the remaining wolf (or wolves) must be in Meta/AV/Rogan/Supagoof of which I have by far the weakest reasons to townread Supagoof.

[Rogan]

I was reading the posts around your (AV) claim last thread and recalled what I could from the description you had posted.

I remember the basic powers now, while I am still insecure about some details. No general "learn what happened" power.
I also noticed I posted about your knowledge of Xihirli and the mafia kill in the post after your claim. Now, straining my brain some more, I think I had written this post before I saw your full claim. So, info very close together, but not really related.

It was a heated and fast going argument, so the details are blurred a bit. So, yeah. I think I see now what happened there. It's still a blow to my confidence about the worth of my participation here. I will still try.



I was also taking a look at the Multi ISO AV did about Elenna, Cao and me.
One thing that seemed incredibly sketchy AT THAT TIME (no day power!) in regards to Elenna was the thing about her not crossing out her old vote. Elenna herself commented on it, but I will repeat it here: The last vote counts. It doesn't matter if the vote before was crossed or not.
Now, I think you (AV) had handled this differently in your game, so being in this headspace is easy to explain.
But even disregarding multiple things from the ISO, some parts might still be valid.

I can't clear Elenna mechanicallt anymore and I can still see some things about her as scum. For example, Wolf!Elenna could have noticed how my mind worked regarding attack/defense pattern, so she made sure to give my town points for the victory condition thing, expecting me to return the favor.
There are other points, like the QT stuff.
I think she was in The Thing and asked a question for the narrator about an auto lynch, a question that would look townie on the surface (the things would know this already so no need to ask) but was utterly irrelevant to the game state. I think, she was a thing at this time.
This QT problem seems similar. Something not really connected to the game state (so no danger of hurting the team) but looking townie.

About the bussing or not bussing... I can only remember the answer in CI, where we were a wolf team. I asked her if I could/should bus her in the unlikely case (which nearly happened) that Xi would give me a scry on her. Her reply was "feel free to bus" or very similar. So... not generally opposed to bussing. She was also defending me before, so she is not eager to bus either. On the other hand, I think she was the one saying it would not be wise to use a scry on someone you read as town, in a situation where I said I would prefer Cao checked this way. So a soft defense, in case Cao would survive, while still bussing since Cao was more likely to die sooner or later.

But I am pretty sure, if I were to go back and do an ISO, thinking she was town, I could find examples for this as well. Soo.... I'm afraid this is a long post saying that I can't really say anything about Elenna.

[moonfly7]

I think I will say now that I saw Supagoof target Rogan last night. Which makes me feel better about him, since he did actually target Rogan as agreed, and his power was at least not something obviously detrimental.


Can't prove this but I'm pretty reluctant to bus unless it's pretty clear that my partner is doomed eventually and I have their permission. I don't think Cao was pretty clearly doomed when I made my vote.


Hmm, okay. Seems a little OP, although that's partly mitigated by a) the large number of kills going about, and b) the possibility of making a wolf NK-immune.

AV has a point about the "or nothing can prevent it", although I think there are other possible explanations for that line.

My current POE (without having gone back to reread/ISO anything):

AvatarVecna - Reads pretty strongly town to me. It's also worth noting that AV stated their Ultimate Question answers before Rogan did, and then Rogan confirmed he had something similar. So if AV is a wolf then either AV actually did ask that question (which seems rather a waste of a night power, from wolf!Av's POV) or Rogan is also wolf (which I find very hard to believe given their interaction D2).
Snowblaze - Looks very towny from D1. My only worry is that (from my POV) the RAC quote seems to imply at this point that Snow must be a wolf. I could see D1 being w/w, maybe, but I just can't imagine wolf!Snow bussing a partner so early for no reason.
Batcathat - I can't recall anything in particular they've said that struck me as towny. They did break a Caoimhin/Snow tie 5 hours before EOD D1 by voting Cao, so that's town points, but also by tie rules Caoimhin would have died anyways. Plus we're running out of people who didn't vote Cao so at this point it's pretty clear that at least one wolf bussed, likely both. Wolf lean based mostly on lack of other suspects.
SupaGoof - Based on their posts, I'm pretty neutral on them. But if AV's interpretation of Rogan's power is correct, that would clear them. Plus he targeted Rogan as mentioned above. Slight town lean.
Taffimai - Probably an actual Survivor. Cleared of being wolf/SK based on kill colour.
Book Wombat - SK/Survivor role, probably going to die by suicide soon
Moonfly7 - Town lean based on giving Snow a scry, plus it's hard to imagine a wolf defending Cao quite so hard D1.
BladeScape - Cleared by kill colour
Metastachydium - Claims a strong power which at least makes sense of their statements last night. Does wolf!Meta put their first random vote on their partner and then stay there the entire day despite all arguments made against other people? I guess it's not impossible, at this point, but it's less likely than BCH bussing, I think. Slight wolf lean mostly due to lack of other suspects
Rogan - I'm less suspicious of them at this point, as I can't believe wolf!Rogan would actually let AV use that power. Leaning town.


Changing my vote to Batcathat.


Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, I'm thinking. That also involves a serum, and the "Strange Case" that BW mentioned earlier (with the capital letters), would be the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, the title of the book.
(Also it's apparently in their signature now.) (Edit: nevermind, either they removed it or I misunderstood what Rogan was talking about.)

- - - Updated - - -



Forgot to say - this isn't all my power does, but I'd rather reveal the rest of it later (obviously if I'm likely to get lynched I'll reveal it).

Just wanted to point out, Taffimai is not actually cleared by kill color. Wombat is still claiming neutral but has claimed that night kill, citing suspicion of of Gac3 as reasoning. Not saying that clears wombat or damns Taff, it doesn't, but it does make one thing clear: We still don't know what color SK has. When it was unclaimed, orange was almost certainly SK's, now that it is claimed, it's possible that the SK has a cyan KC and simply has failed to kill anyone yet. I don't believe that to be true necassarily, but it is a very important fact that I think we would be foolish to ignore. Taff isn't cleared yet, even if I do suspect Book. But with Books suicide, we should soon get the answers we seek one way or another.

[Rogan]

SupaGoof - Based on their posts, I'm pretty neutral on them. But if AV's interpretation of Rogan's power is correct, that would clear them. Plus he targeted Rogan as mentioned above. Slight town lean.

Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, I'm thinking. That also involves a serum, and the "Strange Case" that BW mentioned earlier (with the capital letters), would be the Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, the title of the book.
(Also it's apparently in their signature now.) (Edit: nevermind, either they removed it or I misunderstood what Rogan was talking about.)


This is ruthless, but targeting Elenna would help clearing Goof. Town!Elenna would not lie about Goofs power usage. Wolf!Elenna might.

But it could also work the other way round. If Goof is a wolf, Elenna is likely lying and a wolf as well.

So... an argument for killing one of them today.


And yeah, he had J&H in his extended signature when I said this.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, something to boost my confidence a tiny bit:
I've got Blades as town day 1.
*continues to skim day 1*

[Unavenger]

Saaad thiiings haaappen iiin liiife...
Good luck to everyone then. I didn't fake-claim but I can't prove it. I might as well go on my own terms so...
PULL THE LEVER: BOOK WOMBAT

Was a fun game.

Book Wombat died today. They committed suicide. Book Wombat's role was Mr Hyde.


Book Wombat, you are Doctor Jekyll, a LOVED ROLE BLOCKER and the SURVIVOR, and Mr Hyde, BULLETPROOF and the SERIAL KILLER. You win the game if you kill every hostile character or nothing can prevent this from happening and you survive until the end of the game.

You have FIVE abilities:

Time for a Change (Passive): You start as Doctor Jekyll, and at DUSK, if you are Doctor Jekyll, you become Mr Hyde, and if you are Mr Hyde, you become Doctor Jekyll. You may type SERUM in the main chat during each DAY to avoid switching at the start of the next DUSK.

If you are Doctor Jekyll, you do not have access to Mr Hyde’s abilities and vice versa. If an ability cares about your name, only one of the names is your name at a time. Further, anything you do as Doctor Jekyll is not traceable to Mr Hyde and vice versa. Finally, Doctor Jekyll is actually a Survivor (just a Survivor with an unusual victory condition) so you will appear as one if investigated.

Loved (Passive): So long as you are named Doctor Jekyll, you have a passive -1 to your execution votes. This will NOT be announced unless it becomes relevant.

Philanthropy (Roleblock Priority): So long as you are named Doctor Jekyll, once per NIGHT you may choose a player: they are role blocked tonight (Fast Priority and other Roleblock Priority abilities cannot be blocked).

Lost (Passive): So long as you are named Mr Hyde, you are IMMUNE to dying during the NIGHT.

Brutality (Kill Priority): So long as you are named Mr Hyde, once per NIGHT you may choose a player: they die.

[moonfly7]

Well, we don't have to worry about Wombat or the SK anymore. And technically, he was never lying to us. Weird. So that begs the question, is there another, more traditional survivor?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the beaten up part makes sense, since you know, hyde stomped children to death in the book.

[Unavenger]

Well, we don't have to worry about Wombat or the SK anymore. And technically, he was never lying to us. Weird. So that begs the question, is there another, more traditional survivor?

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the beaten up part makes sense, since you know, hyde stomped children to death in the book.

Oh, this reminds me, I forgot to put the kill flavor at the end of Hyde's ability but it should say "They will be reported as having been beaten to death".

[Metastachydium]

This is ruthless, but targeting Elenna would help clearing Goof. Town!Elenna would not lie about Goofs power usage. Wolf!Elenna might.

I'd rather not kill more townsfolk if we can avoid it; in other words, I'm against killing probably-town Elenna just to clear the Goof. At this rate, we might end up winning this for the dogs!

I think I'd rather join Elenna on Batcathat. They've been on my I don't like somethin' about 'em list for a while now (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25242377&postcount=1291).


Well, we don't have to worry about Wombat or the SK anymore. And technically, he was never lying to us. Weird. So that begs the question, is there another, more traditional survivor?

And in case there isn't, what on earth is Taffimai supposed to be?

- - - Updated - - -

Just realized this: due to the Wombat's death we now outgun the dogs at night!

[Rogan]

So two survivors were kind of possible, after all... I guess there is nothing I can be sure about.

It also makes me think 4 wolves are more likely.
This could also fit the theory that my power is always lying. We got 3 names, while there should be 4.

[moonfly7]

I'd rather not kill more townsfolk if we can avoid it; in other words, I'm against killing probably-town Elenna just to clear the Goof. At this rate, we might end up winning this for the dogs!

I think I'd rather join Elenna on Batcathat. They've been on my I don't like somethin' about 'em list for a while now (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25242377&postcount=1291).



And in case there isn't, what on earth is Taffimai supposed to be?

- - - Updated - - -

Just realized this: due to the Wombat's death we now outgun the dogs at night!
Yep! So long as you aren't an enemy, and I don't think you are, we have more damage now.

So two survivors were kind of possible, after all... I guess there is nothing I can be sure about.

It also makes me think 4 wolves are more likely.
This could also fit the theory that my power is always lying. We got 3 names, while there should be 4.
I think there were 4 total. We killed one. 5 hostile with the SK, factoring in the insane powers we've been seeing, there being 3 left alive sounds plausible. Let's be honest, having large numbers of town woth kill abilities honestly makes this harder for us. Think about it. How many Mafioso have we actually hit yet? 0. Zilch. Nada. I think there are 3 left, with the balancing factor of so many kill powers being the sheer numbers town had. Chances were always good we'd kill ourselves more than them.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh also, I'm almost positive Elena has an Amongus based role. Airlock sounds way to much like that.

[Metastachydium]

Oh also, I'm almost positive Elena has an Amongus based role. Airlock sounds way to much like that.

Did you mean: Taffimai?

[moonfly7]

Did you mean: Taffimai?

Yes, sorry. Taffimai not Elena.

[Taffimai]

Meta Supagoof (1)
Taffimai Taffimai (1)
AV Elenna (1)
Rogan Wombat (1)
Moonfly Wombat (2)
Elenna Meta (1)
Snow Wombat (3)
Blade Wombat (4)
BatCat Wombat (5)
Elenna BatCat (1) Meta (0)
Meta BatCat (2) Supagoof (0)

Kicking a dead marsupial: Rogan, Moonfly, Snow, BatCat and Bladescape

Taffimai, why are you self-voting?

After thinking about it for a while, I have decided to volunteer that I used a night power that makes me immune to the lynch today. This morning I was still salty, and did not much care if you wasted a lynch, but Book Wombat's heroic self-sacrifice has mollified me.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm going to do a quick eval without assuming any question-based info.

AvatarVecna: lock town. Not just because I know I'm town, UT because I'm paired with Rogan. It makes no sense for scum!Rogan to give town!me the right power name and it makes no sense for scum!me to use the power and then immediately call out the results as BS (especially since I got public results before Rogan, whose results were identical). AvatarVecna and Rogan are paired on one team or the other, and even for those of you who can't see our alignments in QT, do you really believe we're both scum?

Snowblaze: strong town lean. Drove the bus that ran over Cao, and didn't have to bus.

Batcathat: Scumlean. Low activity, flying under the radar, and I think jumped on Cao's wagon last minute when it wouldn't make a difference? Need to ISO them to be sure about this read.

Supagoof: Medium Town read. Targeted Rogan like a good townie. Do y'all remember Goof saying he tried to QT and got yelled at for it? I was the person who got the QT, and it was specifically a warning about the side effect to his Bane power in case I decided I wanted to copy him. I'm still not sure why he thought I was trying to copy his Bane power, but AFAICT Supagoof tried to save my life, or at least make sure I knew O was risking it copying his power. Yes my read here is leaning town even without taking the questions into account.

Taffimai: confirmed Neutral. My day kill would've bypassed Hyde's NK Immunity, but Unavenger has confirmed it wouldn't have affected Jekyll, so even more circumstantial than I initially thought.

Moonfly7: Not sure what to think. Probably have to ISO them but aaaaaaaaaa

bladescape: confirmed town.

Elenna: I'm still super-suspicious of Elenna. I think the way she reacted to gac is very different from how Rogan and I did in a suspicious way, that looks more interested in tossing shade than discovering the truth.

Metastachydium: but for a single incredibly bad-looking scumslip, seems town enough. Power sounds absurdly strong, but sadly not unbelievably strong. I should probably start that ISO but aaaaaaaaa.

Rogan: locktown and I'll die defending him.



Reads from towniest to scummiest

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Rogan

Snowblaze
Supagoof

Taffamai

Moonfly7
Batcathat

Metastachydium

Elenna

[moonfly7]

I'm going to do a quick eval without assuming any question-based info.

AvatarVecna: lock town. Not just because I know I'm town, UT because I'm paired with Rogan. It makes no sense for scum!Rogan to give town!me the right power name and it makes no sense for scum!me to use the power and then immediately call out the results as BS (especially since I got public results before Rogan, whose results were identical). AvatarVecna and Rogan are paired on one team or the other, and even for those of you who can't see our alignments in QT, do you really believe we're both scum?

Snowblaze: strong town lean. Drove the bus that ran over Cao, and didn't have to bus.

Batcathat: Scumlean. Low activity, flying under the radar, and I think jumped on Cao's wagon last minute when it wouldn't make a difference? Need to ISO them to be sure about this read.

Supagoof: Medium Town read. Targeted Rogan like a good townie. Do y'all remember Goof saying he tried to QT and got yelled at for it? I was the person who got the QT, and it was specifically a warning about the side effect to his Bane power in case I decided I wanted to copy him. I'm still not sure why he thought I was trying to copy his Bane power, but AFAICT Supagoof tried to save my life, or at least make sure I knew O was risking it copying his power. Yes my read here is leaning town even without taking the questions into account.

Taffimai: confirmed Neutral. My day kill would've bypassed Hyde's NK Immunity, but Unavenger has confirmed it wouldn't have affected Jekyll, so even more circumstantial than I initially thought.

Moonfly7: Not sure what to think. Probably have to ISO them but aaaaaaaaaa

bladescape: confirmed town.

Elenna: I'm still super-suspicious of Elenna. I think the way she reacted to gac is very different from how Rogan and I did in a suspicious way, that looks more interested in tossing shade than discovering the truth.

Metastachydium: but for a single incredibly bad-looking scumslip, seems town enough. Power sounds absurdly strong, but sadly not unbelievably strong. I should probably start that ISO but aaaaaaaaa.

Rogan: locktown and I'll die defending him.



Reads from towniest to scummiest

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Rogan

Snowblaze
Supagoof

Taffamai

Moonfly7
Batcathat

Metastachydium

Elenna

Well, 2 concerning things on that list. If Meta really deserves to be so low I really messed up. But it is a one use.

Obviously the second thing is my own placement. I feel my best argument for that is what my initial innocence argument was:
If I am a wolf, I am a ridiculously stupid one.

I voted for snow the first day hard, and not just that but stuck on the "Cao is innocent" bandwagon. I staked my belief in him so hard it hurt me to look back at it, if I was wolf doing that I would have either been an idiot the others didn't care about losing, or playing a long game so complicated and capable of backfiring that it would never be worth the risk.

Then, immediatley after having been proven wrong about snow, who ahd every reason to suspect me as a wolf, I handed her a Divination ability. I told no one besides a very vague hint that only she picked up on(Very proud of that honestly). If I was a wolf, handing Snowblaze a divination read would've been insane. She just killed Cao without one, giving her one is to big a risk unless I'm town.

And I gave Meta the Kill back when everyone was saying they had town locked him, I didn't want to give it to Bladescape because he would likely be blocked again and couldn't use it. Meta was my best chocie at the time and I thought he was innocent.

[Metastachydium]

Metastachydium: but for a single incredibly bad-looking scumslip, seems town enough. Power sounds absurdly strong, but sadly not unbelievably strong. I should probably start that ISO but aaaaaaaaa.

Come on! It's just 131 posts! It's only going to get worse!
(And if by scumslip you mean that I wasn't expecting the Ultimate Question to work, well, a method using which you can solve the whole game freaking night 1 is a bit too crazy even by Upick standards. Of course I didn't expect it to work.)


Reads from towniest to scummiest

AvatarVecna
bladescape
Rogan

Snowblaze
Supagoof

Taffamai

Moonfly7
Batcathat

Metastachydium

Elenna

And to think that I used to be lock town!

[moonfly7]

Come on! It's just 131 posts! It's only going to get worse!
(And if by scumslip you mean that I wasn't expecting the Ultimate Question to work, well, a method using which you can solve the whole game freaking night 1 is a bit too crazy even by Upick standards. Of course I didn't expect it to work.)



And to think that I used to be lock town!

In metas defense, I felt the same way. But I didn't want to mention it and rain on everyones parade. But realistically, what else was the hidden text going to be but a hundrance? A secret way the power was better? I think we can all agree we didn't expect it to work 100%.

[Metastachydium]

And I gave Meta the Kill back when everyone was saying they had town locked him, I didn't want to give it to Bladescape because he would likely be blocked again and couldn't use it. Meta was my best chocie at the time and I thought he was innocent.

Was your conviction shaken? I'm still town, and unless Unavanger lied to me about your powers not being inherently Evil, I'll stay that way for as long as I live.

[AvatarVecna]

Come on! It's just 131 posts! It's only going to get worse!
(And if by scumslip you mean that I wasn't expecting the Ultimate Question to work, well, a method using which you can solve the whole game freaking night 1 is a bit too crazy even by Upick standards. Of course I didn't expect it to work.)



And to think that I used to be lock town!

The scumslip is you acting like a moustache-twirling villain in regards to us being dead or roleblocked. Even if you had reason to believe we're both baned, banes block kills not roleblocks. So unless you not only get perma-banes, but they protect from everything and not just kills, it's still strangely confident unless you know for a fact that wolves aren't going to bother spending resources on preventing the question. And the only people who would know wolves had no reason to even spend those resources in the first place is the scumteam.

You were locktown when the question cleared you of being mafia and my SK-kill cleared you of being SK. But frankly, we're running out of people who can be scum. As far as I'm concerned, blade is narrator-confirmed, rogan and snow are basically locktown for life (rogan slightly more than snow), Supagoof broke the rules to try save my life, and Taff is confirmed neutral. That leaves moon (and based on their above post, if they're scum they've basically been throwing the game), Batcathat (whose greatest crime is "being quiet"), Meta (who scumslipped), and Elenna (whose ISO looks awful). Unless you wanna argue the scumteam is literally just AV/Rogan, there's not a lot of room for your innocence. And at the very least, you'll have a hell of a time convincing me or Rogan of that. :smalltongue:

[Batcathat]

Huh. I went back and forth on whether BW was a survivor or a serial killer, but I did not expect the answer to be "both".

I'm still leaning towards Elenna and Goof as the wolves. My gut is leaning towards the latter and my brain towards the former. Not sure which body part I should trust with my vote.

I don't think there's a lot I can reply to in the suspicions against myself. They're rather vague, but sort of understandable. I think the above should be checked before me though.

[Rogan]

1. If there's a seer, check AV. I don't trust 'em and their powers sound weird.
2. If there are two seers (or the like), check Fext too. The overlap is giving me some pause.
3. I don't like Xihirli's reluctance to comment on her night kill post, but she's a wildcard. We can deal with her later.
4. I don't see what Bladescape's game is. If he's town, the dogs know, so he mostly just confuses us.
5. Rogan owes us a very good explanation (he defended Caoimhin and the Cape might have defended him early on). I'd also like to hear moonfly's reasoning for defending CTC, for that matter. But those can wait 'till daytime rolls around.

Also, am I even in this game anymore? No one suspects me of anything and only Snow is on the record that she does not suspect me of anything.



This post is giving me some bad vibes. It could be a wolf, trying to direct towns attention to save targets. AV, Fext and to a lesser degree blades and myself. Also a partly defense of Xi.

Regarding point 5: I explained my reasons already. They didn't change by being wrong. That's all.

The last part feels a bit townie. As a wolf, I would not want to get too much attention, while as a townie, I would want to be noticed to check the reads and reactions.

Overall, mixed feelings. Am I biased here?



Noted. Please remember me to respond to this in more detail if I survive the night.


I must have failed my Sense Humour check. It took me far too long to get that.

Rogan, I can see where you're coming from with some parts of that, but
a) how do you know these people are "safe targets" for wolves? Why couldn't AV/Fext/bladescape be wolves?

b) Meta is never partners with Caoimhin, so they're town. (Or SK, I suppose... actually that sounds kind of plausible. Still, I'd rather hunt wolves than the SK for now.)

Snow, AV used my power, Fext flipped town and Blades is locked town vig.

Yeah. Hindsight... but my point seems valid, after all.

- - - Updated - - -


Since my instincts are usually wrong in this game, I'm gonna go against them and say Rogan (might change after I have time to check out his interactions with Cao). Even less ideas for a second name, I'll get back to you on that.

I mentioned I intended to go back to this at d2, but never did.

Voting for me to get night killed is entirely in character for Bat. But he could say this as either alignment. Check other possible wolves first, but don't clear him.

I suggest I test a thing Snow said at day 1.


after a while it starts to add up, and I start wondering, what if it’s because you’re a wolf?
(About Meta)

If the result is YES, METASTACHYDIUM IS A WOLF (no day action!) I would consider him innocent, otherwise he should be checked.

[Metastachydium]

The scumslip is you acting like a moustache-twirling villain in regards to us being dead or roleblocked. Even if you had reason to believe we're both baned,

I was confident Rogan will be baned. I knew you weren't. I just trusted my bluff to work. (You might notice that the term I used was unlikely, rather than impossible).


banes block kills not roleblocks. So unless you not only get perma-banes, but they protect from everything and not just kills, it's still strangely confident unless you know for a fact that wolves aren't going to bother spending resources on preventing the question. And the only people who would know wolves had no reason to even spend those resources in the first place is the scumteam.

I didn't expect the dogs to have two roleblocks, and, again, I absolutely didn't expect cooperation between the dogs and the killer (but I've already told you folks that much), so I felt that it's safe enough to stretch the bluff a bit.


You were locktown when the question cleared you of being mafia and my SK-kill cleared you of being SK. But frankly, we're running out of people who can be scum. As far as I'm concerned, blade is narrator-confirmed, rogan and snow are basically locktown for life (rogan slightly more than snow), Supagoof broke the rules to try save my life, and Taff is confirmed neutral. That leaves moon (and based on their above post, if they're scum they've basically been throwing the game), Batcathat (whose greatest crime is "being quiet"), Meta (who scumslipped), and Elenna (whose ISO looks awful). Unless you wanna argue the scumteam is literally just AV/Rogan, there's not a lot of room for your innocence. And at the very least, you'll have a hell of a time convincing me or Rogan of that. :smalltongue:

So you're basically accusing me of what you seem to be clearing Moonfly for, namely being bad at being a wolf? You are imlying that I bussed the Cape with what started as a joke vote and then I started gloating about supposed wolf knowledge. I don't have your experience, that is true, but frankly, assuming such incompetence on my part is insulting.


Huh. I went back and forth on whether BW was a survivor or a serial killer, but I did not expect the answer to be "both".

I'm still leaning towards Elenna and Goof as the wolves. My gut is leaning towards the latter and my brain towards the former. Not sure which body part I should trust with my vote.

I don't think there's a lot I can reply to in the suspicions against myself. They're rather vague, but sort of understandable. I think the above should be checked before me though.

If Rogan's not a wolf, the Goof is unlikely to be one, unless you want to wade knee deep into tinfoil territory (the Goof baned Rogan to get towncred because the dogs were certain for some reason that town doesn't have a kill other than bladescape's).


Snow, AV used my power, Fext flipped town and Blades is locked town vig.

Yeah. Hindsight... but my point seems valid, after all.

It wasn't a very good point then and that didn't change much. I suspected AV because they are AV; bladescape because he was being uncooperative and confusing; and Fext because I thought their claim conflicts with AV's.

- - - Updated - - -



I suggest I test a thing Snow said at day 1.

(About Meta)

If the result is YES, METASTACHYDIUM IS A WOLF (no day action!) I would consider him innocent, otherwise he should be checked.

Lemme guess. By "checked" you mean "killed".

[AvatarVecna]

I was confident Rogan will be baned. I knew you weren't. I just trusted my bluff to work. (You might notice that the term I used was unlikely, rather than impossible).



I didn't expect the dogs to have two roleblocks, and, again, I absolutely didn't expect cooperation between the dogs and the killer (but I've already told you folks that much), so I felt that it's safe enough to stretch the bluff a bit.



So you're basically accusing me of what you seem to be clearing Moonfly for, namely being bad at being a wolf? You are imlying that I bussed the Cape with what started as a joke vote and then I started gloating about supposed wolf knowledge. I don't have your experience, that is true, but frankly, assuming such incompetence on my part is insulting.



If Rogan's not a wolf, the Goof is unlikely to be one, unless you want to wade knee deep into tinfoil territory (the Goof baned Rogan to get towncred because the dogs were certain for some reason that town doesn't have a kill other than bladescape's).



It wasn't a very good point then and that didn't change much. I suspected AV because they are AV; bladescape because he was being uncooperative and confusing; and Fext because I thought their claim conflicts with AV's.

- - - Updated - - -



Lemme guess. By "checked" you mean "killed".

I think hes talking about asking a question tonight on on the assumption that the answers he gets are wrong.

[Metastachydium]

I think hes talking about asking a question tonight on on the assumption that the answers he gets are wrong.

That's explicitly not the case. He says I need checking if his power fails to peg me as a wolf.

[Rogan]

I was confident Rogan will be baned. I knew you weren't. I just trusted my bluff to work. (You might notice that the term I used was unlikely, rather than impossible).


It wasn't a very good point then and that didn't change much. I suspected AV because they are AV; bladescape because he was being uncooperative and confusing; and Fext because I thought their claim conflicts with AV's

Lemme guess. By "checked" you mean "killed".

You knew AV wasn't baned because...? Or I would be banned? Do you know something that makes you sure about other people's action?
(Your emphasis on the words also sounds very similar to something I said as a wolf in Love Letter. But this might be coincidence)

It's possible for a townie to pick those targets. But getting only townies as targets for a scry can definitely a wolf move. Especially if they were in part honest about hunting the killer.

And yeah. Checked means killed. Unless we have a true Seer, there seems to be no other way.

[Metastachydium]

You knew AV wasn't baned because...?

You are right. I didn't know, per se. What I knew was that I didn't bane them; implied that I did; and the only person other than the Goof and myself who claimed to have a bane was the Wombat. I'd call that a safe bet.


Or I would be banned?

The Goof was instructed to bane you.


Do you know something that makes you sure about other people's action?

Nope. I started the game with one power. I only have two now because I received a temporary one from Moonfly.


(Your emphasis on the words also sounds very similar to something I said as a wolf in Love Letter. But this might be coincidence)

Good thing I'm not you, then.

[Rogan]

Living Players


AvatarVecna - locked town
Snowblaze - town or really aggressive at bus driving
Batcathat - might be scum
SupaGoof - he hinted at his role, was protecting me and is on the scum list (which is definitely false) so he is town
Taffimai - I keep forgetting her, so ??? Survivor
Moonfly7 - is gifting useful powers. Townie
BladeScape - locked town
Elenna - some scum points
Metastachydium - some scum points
Rogan - town


We are looking for 3 wolves at maximum.
Squinting a lot, I could see Snow, Bat, Taff, Elenna, Meta.
So 4 of 10 players contain up to 3 wolves.

[Taffimai]

* cough *

extra characters

[Rogan]

* cough *

extra characters

Ah, yes. Thanks. Did I mention I keep forgetting you?

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Moon? Do you know if the kill you gifted will show your color or the color of the shooter?

I assume the later, so Meta has an even better chance to show the true color.

So I'll check Snow instead.

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Batcathat for... no really good
...reasons.

[moonfly7]

Ah, yes. Thanks. Did I mention I keep forgetting you?

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Moon? Do you know if the kill you gifted will show your color or the color of the shooter?

I assume the later, so Meta has an even better chance to show the true color.

So I'll check Snow instead.

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Batcathat for... no really good
...reasons.
I'm going to assume that all townies have the same color?

And yeah, it should be his color, my power but it's him doing it. And good news is he can't really use it for mafia stuff because if he does I will absolutely know it was him due to flavor text, and even with 2 town kills tonight he wouldn't kill enough of us to matter.

So here's my own personal issue with this:
Rogan and AV are assuming his answers are always false. I disagree. I think that the answer left out wombat ebcause of his weirdness, and that they interfered with each others powers. If we still kill based on the question I think we'll be killing 2 of the 3 remaining wolves.

But there are glaring flaws with this theory, mostly that Wombat was in SK mode when the question was asked, and should have been deemed hostile on it. Still, I don't think your assertion that it's always wrong is 100% correct.

[Rogan]

I'm going to assume that all townies have the same color?

And yeah, it should be his color, my power but it's him doing it. And good news is he can't really use it for mafia stuff because if he does I will absolutely know it was him due to flavor text, and even with 2 town kills tonight he wouldn't kill enough of us to matter.

So here's my own personal issue with this:
Rogan and AV are assuming his answers are always false. I disagree. I think that the answer left out wombat ebcause of his weirdness, and that they interfered with each others powers. If we still kill based on the question I think we'll be killing 2 of the 3 remaining wolves.

But there are glaring flaws with this theory, mostly that Wombat was in SK mode when the question was asked, and should have been deemed hostile on it. Still, I don't think your assertion that it's always wrong is 100% correct.

Soo... you assume the mech locked neutral is in fact scum? That's... bold.
If the answer to the question had been Book, AV and Goof, I would have been extremely disappointed by AV, but would have believed the answer.

In order for the answer to be correct, Taff would have to be scum, Book would have to have registered as Survivor, since he was survivor when the question was asked (or something like that) and AV would need to have knowledge about Taff being Scum or she actually asked the question (to learn the identity of the killer) while being scum AND she did nothing to stop me from getting an answer. She even asked her scum buddy Goof to protect me.
Alternative theory would be, goof was lying from the very beginning and has a power to mess with other powers of she knows the name. In this case, Goof had targeted me and was watched by Elenna. My result was changed to show two scum members and one nearly impossible target. AV suggest that my power gives the wrong result every time and by doing so protects the whole wolf team.
Both theories are absurd, require the perfect powerset for scum and it would be against my read of AV after our fight.

I'd rather believe that you and Snow are the scum team and you try to protect each other with the gifted scry explanation. In this case, Snow either didn't get a scry, or she used it on someone else.

[moonfly7]

Soo... you assume the mech locked neutral is in fact scum? That's... bold.
If the answer to the question had been Book, AV and Goof, I would have been extremely disappointed by AV, but would have believed the answer.

In order for the answer to be correct, Taff would have to be scum, Book would have to have registered as Survivor, since he was survivor when the question was asked (or something like that) and AV would need to have knowledge about Taff being Scum or she actually asked the question (to learn the identity of the killer) while being scum AND she did nothing to stop me from getting an answer. She even asked her scum buddy Goof to protect me.
Alternative theory would be, goof was lying from the very beginning and has a power to mess with other powers of she knows the name. In this case, Goof had targeted me and was watched by Elenna. My result was changed to show two scum members and one nearly impossible target. AV suggest that my power gives the wrong result every time and by doing so protects the whole wolf team.
Both theories are absurd, require the perfect powerset for scum and it would be against my read of AV after our fight.

I'd rather believe that you and Snow are the scum team and you try to protect each other with the gifted scry explanation. In this case, Snow either didn't get a scry, or she used it on someone else.

Your missunderstanding what I'm saying here. And also I did mention that there were flaws with it, did I not? I just don't believe Unavenger would blatantly lie to you about your power that much. I think there's a weakness but not that big of one.

And did I say I thought Taff was guilty? No, I didn't. I'm not 100% on it, but the text color is pretty good evidence that she isn't. And I don't suspect AV. In fact I've mentioned before, more than once, that I think that both of you using it together caused some kind of feedback loop. I do think that the ultimate question provided at least one correct answer. But I'm not certain hence why I haven't cast a vote yet. Don't go accusing me and even snow of something based on what is basically wild speculations on my part.

All I'm really arguing is that I feel like were all being way to quick to believe that you only got false answers. Rather, I would bank on the idea that we recieved some, but not all, unreliable info. For the record I think some of it is true. I just don't think the issue is as simple as were making it, and it's bothering me that everyone is accepting said explanation so quickly.

Also, I've been pointing out once or twice that we still don't know what snow's power is and that Snow could have been running around us from the start with that Cao vote. I'm not saying I think she was, but....I do think it's a possibility we need to consider? Maybe I'm being paranoid, but doesn't it feel convenient she used my power on someone who died? And that after we've killed Cao so easily literally n one else has been caught?

Ok, wait, who originally asked the questions you checked? I just had the crasiest thought. WHat if, when your using a Wolves(and SK's?) question, you get a false answer?

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We need to look at who asked your questions, that could be whats throwing us off. Or I could be very wrong. Obviously I'm throwing out crazy random Ideas. I'm not outright accusing snow obviously, but I feel like we've stagnated, we've got no idea whats going on anymore, we need to question everything and throw out wild theories for a minute, and maybe in the hundreds of pounds of crap, we'll find some golden truth.

[Rogan]

Your missunderstanding what I'm saying here. And also I did mention that there were flaws with it, did I not? I just don't believe Unavenger would blatantly lie to you about your power that much. I think there's a weakness but not that big of one.

And did I say I thought Taff was guilty? No, I didn't. I'm not 100% on it, but the text color is pretty good evidence that she isn't. And I don't suspect AV. In fact I've mentioned before, more than once, that I think that both of you using it together caused some kind of feedback loop. I do think that the ultimate question provided at least one correct answer. But I'm not certain hence why I haven't cast a vote yet. Don't go accusing me and even snow of something based on what is basically wild speculations on my part.

All I'm really arguing is that I feel like were all being way to quick to believe that you only got false answers. Rather, I would bank on the idea that we recieved some, but not all, unreliable info. For the record I think some of it is true. I just don't think the issue is as simple as were making it, and it's bothering me that everyone is accepting said explanation so quickly.

Also, I've been pointing out once or twice that we still don't know what snow's power is and that Snow could have been running around us from the start with that Cao vote. I'm not saying I think she was, but....I do think it's a possibility we need to consider? Maybe I'm being paranoid, but doesn't it feel convenient she used my power on someone who died? And that after we've killed Cao so easily literally n one else has been caught?

Ok, wait, who originally asked the questions you checked? I just had the crasiest thought. WHat if, when your using a Wolves(and SK's?) question, you get a false answer?

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We need to look at who asked your questions, that could be whats throwing us off. Or I could be very wrong. Obviously I'm throwing out crazy random Ideas. I'm not outright accusing snow obviously, but I feel like we've stagnated, we've got no idea whats going on anymore, we need to question everything and throw out wild theories for a minute, and maybe in the hundreds of pounds of crap, we'll find some golden truth.

The result I had was AV, Goof, Taff. AV got Rogan, Goof, Taff.
So in order to get two of 3 wolves by going by the question, either Taff or AV or myself would have to be scum.
Unless you meant my first question when you said 2 of 3 wolves?

I think, getting always false results is not very nice, but at least you can still use the power to gain some insights after you figured out how it worked. Getting in effect random results would mean the power is 100% useless. No, it's worse than useless. It would cause only confusion and could not help in any way.

Your other theory is not possible either. Snow made the first statement/question. She could be scum, but it's unlikely. But the second question was asked by captain Cap. He is dead and definitely town.

[moonfly7]

The funny thing is, I did recently (as in at dawn) acquire a one-shot power I'll have to use or lose next night. Somehow. It has nothing to do with my main power or my role, for that matter. It's also kinda creepy, but Unavenger confirmed that it's not an Evil thing.
My main power, on the other hand is not a one-shot thing:

This little bit here makes me want to give Meta some town points. I don't think mafia would think to add the bit about it not being evil. They'd just say they got it and it was creepy, maybe even hint that I could be evil because of it. Unless it somehow benefits them to not? I don't think it would've triggered a lynch on Meta, or made it any worse. I think he legitimately asked Unavenger and Unavenger told him it wasn't, and if he was Mafia he wouldn't have asked. Unless he thought I was the SK..... Obviously not even a clear, but I do think it's something.

Also just wanted to say, Taff and Goof are on the initial list. If, for some ridiculous crazy reason, we only had 3 werewolves at the beggining, which I doubt so much, we would have all of our wolves in that batch right there. But obviously if we assume that all answers are incorrect, it doesn't work.

Also, I know for a fact your ability isn't giving only lies. I'm not a hostile. And my name isn't on your list, if it were lying it would name all non-hostiles. Obviously you have no reason to believe me, but thats proof enough to me that your wrong about the ability. There has got to be something else going on with it. Unless you believe that everyone accept AV, Rogan, Goof, and Taff are wolves, and that would be a ridiculous number of wolves.

[Rogan]

But you are right, things are too silent at the moment. If we were 100% correct, the wolves probably would surrender.

So... if we have cleared someone without good reason, who would it be?

[moonfly7]

The result I had was AV, Goof, Taff. AV got Rogan, Goof, Taff.
So in order to get two of 3 wolves by going by the question, either Taff or AV or myself would have to be scum.
Unless you meant my first question when you said 2 of 3 wolves?

I think, getting always false results is not very nice, but at least you can still use the power to gain some insights after you figured out how it worked. Getting in effect random results would mean the power is 100% useless. No, it's worse than useless. It would cause only confusion and could not help in any way.

Your other theory is not possible either. Snow made the first statement/question. She could be scum, but it's unlikely. But the second question was asked by captain Cap. He is dead and definitely town.

I meant that each of your posts gave 2/3 wolves, with you and AV being innocent. I'm thinking using both abilities at once gave each others names somehow. And, if anything if I'm right about both of your names showing up via a "same power at once" kinda glitch thing(No I don't have any idea what the redacted wording would have to say for that to happen) then Cap being innocent and Snow being innocent only proves the theory more.
But again I'm not married to the idea, just tossing out ideas wildly, that being said, what I am married to 100% is that it cannot just be as simple as false answers, if it were, everyone but you, AV, Taff, and goof would be non-hostile, and everyone else hostile.

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But you are right, things are too silent at the moment. If we were 100% correct, the wolves probably would surrender.

So... if we have cleared someone without good reason, who would it be?

I hate to say it, but maybe Snow? I-I don't think it's snow. I don't want to think it's snow. And she had no reason to stick up for me, although I would have called her out if she didn't, but still. But, Snow's only claim to innocence, at all, is the vote on Cao, and her being made the counter wagon. She's never been mechanically cleared, never been checked, and never offered a single hint of her powers that I can tell. So here's a question, beyond the gift I gave her, which by the way gave us no useful info, what can snow actually do? Do we have any idea?

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BatCatHat hasn't been cleared but we also have 0 knowledge of what they can do, literally zilch. And we're only now questioning it and that obviously causes me concern.

Personally, I think we should just Lynch Goof, and then see if they're mafia. If they aren't, the list was completely wrong. If they were, then your ability likely gives only 1 correct answer per thing. Goof was on this list, and the last one. But I do agree that Taff is mech cleared, and I really do believe in you and AV. I think AV being wolf works in no universe only because they were on one list and not the other. No matter how you slice the lists wrongness, and it is wrong we just don't know how, it looks really weird if they were mafia. I suppose she could have lied about getting Rogan, but again, I press X to doubt that. So I still think AV is town.

[AvatarVecna]

I meant that each of your posts gave 2/3 wolves, with you and AV being innocent. I'm thinking using both abilities at once gave each others names somehow. And, if anything if I'm right about both of your names showing up via a "same power at once" kinda glitch thing(No I don't have any idea what the redacted wording would have to say for that to happen) then Cap being innocent and Snow being innocent only proves the theory more.
But again I'm not married to the idea, just tossing out ideas wildly, that being said, what I am married to 100% is that it cannot just be as simple as false answers, if it were, everyone but you, AV, Taff, and goof would be non-hostile, and everyone else hostile.

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I hate to say it, but maybe Snow? I-I don't think it's snow. I don't want to think it's snow. And she had no reason to stick up for me, although I would have called her out if she didn't, but still. But, Snow's only claim to innocence, at all, is the vote on Cao, and her being made the counter wagon. She's never been mechanically cleared, never been checked, and never offered a single hint of her powers that I can tell. So here's a question, beyond the gift I gave her, which by the way gave us no useful info, what can snow actually do? Do we have any idea?

That's not what I suggested. There are two possible fakes:

1) we received true answers to the opposite of the question we asked. If this is true, then the answer we got is the only three pro town players, which is patently ridiculous. It would also require that a neutral be explicitly pro-town.

2) we received fake answers to the question we asked. Thus, every name we received is not an anti-town role. This also explains the overlap: if this is how the question works, maximizing overlap gives us the least new information, makes even the fake answer not nearly as useful as hoped.

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Moonfpy is doing a really good job convincing me to lynch somebody other than Elenna.

[moonfly7]

That's not what I suggested. There are two possible fakes:

1) we received true answers to the opposite of the question we asked. If this is true, then the answer we got is the only three pro town players, which is patently ridiculous. It would also require that a neutral be explicitly pro-town.

2) we received fake answers to the question we asked. Thus, every name we received is not an anti-town role. This also explains the overlap: if this is how the question works, maximizing overlap gives us the least new information, makes even the fake answer not nearly as useful as hoped.

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Moonfpy is doing a really good job convincing me to lynch somebody other than Elenna.

I can't tell if this is you saying you want to lynch me, or if your agreeing with some of my assertions. Gonna assume your saying lynch but I hope not.

Anyways I'm a bit sus on Elena too honestly.

And in case it will help you understand why I'm acting erratic, I'm falling back on tinfoil hat mode because everyone seems to be grasping at straws anyways. At least this way, I'm grasping at new straws with every random idea I fly with, and I might unearth something useful.

[Rogan]

This little bit here makes me want to give Meta some town points. I don't think mafia would think to add the bit about it not being evil. They'd just say they got it and it was creepy, maybe even hint that I could be evil because of it. Unless it somehow benefits them to not? I don't think it would've triggered a lynch on Meta, or made it any worse. I think he legitimately asked Unavenger and Unavenger told him it wasn't, and if he was Mafia he wouldn't have asked. Unless he thought I was the SK..... Obviously not even a clear, but I do think it's something.

Also just wanted to say, Taff and Goof are on the initial list. If, for some ridiculous crazy reason, we only had 3 werewolves at the beggining, which I doubt so much, we would have all of our wolves in that batch right there. But obviously if we assume that all answers are incorrect, it doesn't work.

Also, I know for a fact your ability isn't giving only lies. I'm not a hostile. And my name isn't on your list, if it were lying it would name all non-hostiles. Obviously you have no reason to believe me, but thats proof enough to me that your wrong about the ability. There has got to be something else going on with it. Unless you believe that everyone accept AV, Rogan, Goof, and Taff are wolves, and that would be a ridiculous number of wolves.

So here are the questions and answers, for reference. I even included the part about the first mistake in the first answer.



Snow: "AvatarVecna/Captain Cap/Supagoof/gac3/Book Wombat/Xihirli/bladescape/Taffamai

All wolves in that group?"

---

Rogan, this statement is TRUE: "All living members of the Mafia are within AvatarVecna, Captain Cap, Supagoof, gac3, Book Wombat and Xihirli."

---

Well, now I am paranoid again... The question included blades and Taffamai, but the answer leaves them out. This makes the answer even better for wolf hunting, but it's strange...
Can you tell me if this was a mistake on your side?


This was a mistake - I meant the entire list, not the partial list I stated. I don't know why I missed two of them out - I was rushing I guess.




Who are all the players in this game with an anti-town role?


AVATARVECNA, TAFFIMAI and SUPAGOOF are all of the players in the game with an anti-town role.


I agree that Metas info about his detect evil power question for Unavenger is a point in his favor. Also a way to check hisalignment. So Meta should be save today. But he should get a kill under his belt to show his colors for sure.
Maybe targeted at me, so every tinfoil argument about my guilt is removed. I wouldn't mind it.

Now, my first question was "are all wolves in this group? " and I got the answer Yes, they are. The opposite of this is not guaranteed to be "No wolf is in this group", but it is possible. It surely is not "everyone not mentioned is a wolf"
If this was the case, I think it would be game over by default.

So, let's take a look at the first list again and remove the players who's alignment is known. We are left with
AvatarVecna and Supagoof.

It's nearly Impossible for AV to be scum.
Goof might be, but according to Elenna, he was targeting me n2, like I asked him to do.

So it seems likely that there are no wolves in this list. Which makes me paranoid about snow again... getting no wolf in a POE of half the players? Sure, things seemed reasonable, but Snow was universally town read after Cao flipped. So if it was a bus, it was well worth losing this one wolf.

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I miss Book and his table... And Cao and his vote counts...

Also, if Snow really is scum, I would have been right about her on Day 1, I only failed to build enough of a case for her guilt.

[moonfly7]

So here are the questions and answers, for reference. I even included the part about the first mistake in the first answer.











I agree that Metas info about his detect evil power question for Unavenger is a point in his favor. Also a way to check hisalignment. So Meta should be save today. But he should get a kill under his belt to show his colors for sure.
Maybe targeted at me, so every tinfoil argument about my guilt is removed. I wouldn't mind it.

Now, my first question was "are all wolves in this group? " and I got the answer Yes, they are. The opposite of this is not guaranteed to be "No wolf is in this group", but it is possible. It surely is not "everyone not mentioned is a wolf"
If this was the case, I think it would be game over by default.

So, let's take a look at the first list again and remove the players who's alignment is known. We are left with
AvatarVecna and Supagoof.

It's nearly Impossible for AV to be scum.
Goof might be, but according to Elenna, he was targeting me n2, like I asked him to do.

So it seems likely that there are no wolves in this list. Which makes me paranoid about snow again... getting no wolf in a POE of half the players? Sure, things seemed reasonable, but Snow was universally town read after Cao flipped. So if it was a bus, it was well worth losing this one wolf.

Unless Elena and Goof are both Mafia.

And yeah, you see my tinfoil worries about snow now? It's a classic play: Pit two of your people against each other, one dies, the other is now a hero. And you know whats funny? We are wise to that ploy, I have seen people accuse nearly everyone but snow of bussing(and even vaguely snow once or twice, but never seriously, we're all too convinced she's innocent), and yet we haven't ever taken a hard stance to disbelieve the one who would've gained the most from a bus. And your right, shes given nearly zilch to the group in hard evidence besides that, beyond clearing me. And moreso, once again I'm gonna say it: It feels way to coincidental that she checked the only person who died last night.

Only 1 person died last night, and out of all of her targets Snowblaze picked the one, single person who got ganked to check? It just feels weird.

I-I think I might be starting to convince myself of this honestly. I'm still thinking voting Supagoof is the best choice but, I'm thinking maybe the crazy tinfoil hat Snow case has more merit than we thought? I could be wrong, and I'm likely signing my death warrant for even suggesting it, but you have to admit that it doesn't sound impossible. Snow has given us no new info really, and has no mech clear or ever explained her powers. I think I'd like an ability reveal right now, Snowblaze. If not, I'm changing my vote. I don't care if this sounds suspicious or even insane, I'm making that challenge and I am willing to die on this hill. If she won't give us anything to work with, my vote switches to snow.

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Oh, and BTW, if I'm right about snow, she has info about one of our roles and powers she didn't have before. Courtesy of me, no less.

[AvatarVecna]

My thought right now: if meta kills somebody in the night using the power from moonfly, that allows us to check out an untrusted townie via the kill, but also allows us to check meta via the kill color. If I'm willing to consider basically all possibilities, then the only people cleared of being mafia are me, blade, rogan, and taffamai. That leaves 6 possible mafia members if I'm adding snow and goof to the list.

Hypothetical situation:

D3: starts 7-1-2, lynch supagoof (?), ends 6-1-2
N3: starts 6-1-2, scum NK AV (town), blade NK Elenna (?), meta NK moon (?/?), ends ?-1-?.

At this point in the hypothetical, we've checked four people on our list of six, one of whom is meta (who got checked by virtue of their kill color). If those are all townie results...well, that means there's only two possible scum left (in this case, snow and BCH), and we've only got two scum roles left to fill. The only real issue with this method is if there's three wolves left (but 4 scum and an SK feels a bit much? especially with how many kill powers have been floating around, including a full-time vigilante). Meta gets checked as long as there's new kill fluff with a color, regardless of what that color is. The only way that doesn't happen is if meta tries to kill somebody who's baned, or if meta doesn't use the power. But since the known banes are the dead supagoof and meta himself, surely those wouldn't get in the way of the kill. Heck, even if we lynch somebody besides goof, as long as goof is baning one of our locktown, it still shouldn't get in the way of meta's kill. Meta could get roleblocked perhaps...

New hypothetical:

D3: starts 6-1-3, lynch supagoof (?), ends 5-1-3
N3: starts 5-1-3, scum NK AV (town), blade NK Elenna (?), meta NK moon (?/?), ends ?-1-?.

At this point, we've hit four people in our list of six, in a game with three remaining mafia members. Unless somebody hits outside our list of six for some reason, there's no way we didn't hit at least one scum, making this (at worst) town/town/town/scum, and the game is 2-1-2 at this point.

[Rogan]

Um....no? :smallfrown:

Maybe you should flip your list and give it the scrutiny of "If they were a wolf..." and see what you come up with. That would be something to do. I mean, look at the ones not on it. If you've been wrong every time, and you have a list that "has a wolf on it", then to be right you would have to say inverse of that and proclaim "My list doesn't have a wolf on it".

Where are we at with the blue count?

Goof seems to be the true prophet here. I don't think a wolf would sabotage Wolf!Snows plan to mislead town to shoot in a nearly all wrong POE. So if Snow is wolf, Goof isn't.


For why I'm waiting: it's better if my role stays secret for as long as it can, for all of us. It's not superpowerful but I'm not jinxing it by spilling the beans earlier than necassary. And there hasn't been a good reason to out myself yet, since beyond a few off the cuff accusations and offhand threats no one's accused me really. If it gets bad, I'll clear myself.

And I can answer your second question too:
My role is the other illegal one. Noticed it halfway through the first day on accident. Then Unavanger fixed the issue.

What exactly was fixed?


I will try out a technique by AV and try to paint every single statement into the most negative light possible.

You don't want towns vig to shoot book, who is highly suspected of being scum. This way, you will have a good target for the lynch later. You only say reasons, which is an incredible vague way to hint that you have more info than the rest of us, it's impossible to search for contradictions like we did about Book.

You also want to keep the town vig away from AV. Maybe you are the serial killer and want to kill her yourself, but you don't want a kill to be wasted. Or you want to keep her alive as a possible lynch target. This one only works if you expect her to be unable to work as a backup prophet, but you might know something about her. I wonder if a serial killer could have been told the identity of the wolves as a way to make them stronger? This way the killer could always keep the balance and prevent one side from gaining the upper hand.

Your own defense is only "I know my alignment" which is incredibly easy to fake and can't be checked without using mech. You avoid giving other reasons since they would all prove you are not a wolf, but nothing stops you from being the killer.

I don't know how to scum read your case for Bat, but there surely is a way. Maybe you wanted to avoid being wrong all the time?

Supagoof could be a wolf, yet you defend him for having a protective power. In a world with multiple town aligned kills, wolves need protection just as much as town. You don't want us to hit a wolf just yet, you need them as an excuse for the game to keep going.

You don't want us to suspect Taff just yet, since you could try to paint him as the killer later if things start to look bad for you.
You don't want us to kill Book, but I would only repeat my first point here.

Moonfly... Well, you say that you want to talk about your reasons later. That's not really helpful. Maybe you need to forge your argument first?

Blades killed a townie. That's not really pro town. But the town color is hard to fake.

Elenna and Meta (and me)... the reads about them are okay on it's own, but you keep mentioning my power could be wrong. That's setting up a lynch for me if I somehow survive the night!

Maybe rereading this would help?


I think you made a couple of huge mistakes, but I mourn your loss nonetheless, Fext!
Likewise, sorry Cap! We should have believed you.


♣

How come I'm apparently the only one without a kill power when some of us got two?


♣

Neutrals are bad news, not to mention "neutrals". Book Wombat must die, and so should Taffimai.
I bid thee a safe and fruitful hunt, bladescape!

Hmmm... While I was agreeing at this point, it seems very convenient now. But the only other targets that might be scum was Goof, if I remember right.





Original Table here


Player Name
Status?
Identity?/Alignment?
Powers?


AvatarVecna
Alive
???
JoaT (each power is one-use)??
Bane?? (Used, failed)
Kill (need identity)??
Dayvig (works only on Serial Killer, used, failed)
Feedback power (only after 1 shot immunity?)
Duplicate power (need exact name, used successfully)


Captain Cap
Dead
The Pied Piper of Hamelin/Town
Roleblock, vote manipulation effect


Snowblaze
Alive
???
???


Batcathat
Alive
???
???


Supagoof
Alive
???
Protection, Beast?? Used on Rogan n2, not triggered


Taffimai
Alive
???/Survivor??
Dayvig (last to vote, used)


gac3
extra Dead, for real this time
Melinda Gordon/Town
Dead chat access


Book Wombat
Dead
Mr Hyde/ Killer & Dr Jekyll / Survivor
Kill&night immunity / block & -1 vote


fext
Dead
Flying Pumpkin/Town
Night 1 Kill Immunity
Kill
Fast kill (only activates against Mafia/Serial Killer, one use)


moonfly7
Alive
???
Gifting powers (full scry, kill, ..)


Xihirli
Wanted: Dead or Alive
Blue Angel/Town
Roleblock
Kill (only those previously roleblocked)


bladescape
Alive
(Game Show Host??)/Town
Kill


Elenna
Alive
???



[td]Metastachydium
Alive
???
Permanent Night kill immunity for targets??


CaoimhinTheCape
Dead
Cecil Palmer/Mafia
Mafia Kill
Dawn broadcast


Rogan
Alive
???
Prophecy, wrong results



Please check and help me fill the gaps.

[moonfly7]

My thought right now: if meta kills somebody in the night using the power from moonfly, that allows us to check out an untrusted townie via the kill, but also allows us to check meta via the kill color. If I'm willing to consider basically all possibilities, then the only people cleared of being mafia are me, blade, rogan, and taffamai. That leaves 6 possible mafia members if I'm adding snow and goof to the list.

Hypothetical situation:

D3: starts 7-1-2, lynch supagoof (?), ends 6-1-2
N3: starts 6-1-2, scum NK AV (town), blade NK Elenna (?), meta NK moon (?/?), ends ?-1-?.

At this point in the hypothetical, we've checked four people on our list of six, one of whom is meta (who got checked by virtue of their kill color). If those are all townie results...well, that means there's only two possible scum left (in this case, snow and BCH), and we've only got two scum roles left to fill. The only real issue with this method is if there's three wolves left (but 4 scum and an SK feels a bit much? especially with how many kill powers have been floating around, including a full-time vigilante). Meta gets checked as long as there's new kill fluff with a color, regardless of what that color is. The only way that doesn't happen is if meta tries to kill somebody who's baned, or if meta doesn't use the power. But since the known banes are the dead supagoof and meta himself, surely those wouldn't get in the way of the kill. Heck, even if we lynch somebody besides goof, as long as goof is baning one of our locktown, it still shouldn't get in the way of meta's kill. Meta could get roleblocked perhaps...

New hypothetical:

D3: starts 6-1-3, lynch supagoof (?), ends 5-1-3
N3: starts 5-1-3, scum NK AV (town), blade NK Elenna (?), meta NK moon (?/?), ends ?-1-?.

At this point, we've hit four people in our list of six, in a game with three remaining mafia members. Unless somebody hits outside our list of six for some reason, there's no way we didn't hit at least one scum, making this (at worst) town/town/town/scum, and the game is 2-1-2 at this point.
I think your right in who you can trust. Everyone else, including me, sadly, is not Mech cleared and should be considered a possible hostile. Obviously, I hate the idea of dying. Especially when I have both a bane, and a Roleblock left to give, but I can't argue with the application of the very logic I'm preaching. It's a solid plan. Although it does nothing to check snow, sadly. But you can do that afterwards, I suppose.
Also it doesn't check BCH, whom I think is worth a check as well, but again, beggars can't be choosers.

Goof seems to be the true prophet here. I don't think a wolf would sabotage Wolf!Snows plan to mislead town to shoot in a nearly all wrong POE. So if Snow is wolf, Goof isn't.



What exactly was fixed?


Maybe rereading this would help?



Hmmm... While I was agreeing at this point, it seems very convenient now. But the only other targets that might be scum was Goof, if I remember right.







Player Name
Status?
Identity?/Alignment?
Powers?


AvatarVecna
Alive
???
JoaT (each power is one-use)??
Bane?? (Used, failed)
Kill (need identity)??
Dayvig (works only on Serial Killer, used, failed)
Feedback power (only after 1 shot immunity?)
Duplicate power (need exact name, used successfully)


Captain Cap
Dead
The Pied Piper of Hamelin/Town
Roleblock, vote manipulation effect


Snowblaze
Alive
???
???


Batcathat
Alive
???
???


Supagoof
Alive
???
Protection, Beast?? Used on Rogan n2, not triggered


Taffimai
Alive
???/Survivor??
Dayvig (last to vote, used)


gac3
extra Dead, for real this time
Melinda Gordon/Town
Dead chat access


Book Wombat
Dead
Mr Hyde/ Killer & Dr Jekyll / Survivor
Kill&night immunity / block & -1 vote


fext
Dead
Flying Pumpkin/Town
Night 1 Kill Immunity
Kill
Fast kill (only activates against Mafia/Serial Killer, one use)


moonfly7
Alive
???
Gifting powers (full scry, kill, ..)


Xihirli
Wanted: Dead or Alive
Blue Angel/Town
Roleblock
Kill (only those previously roleblocked)


bladescape
Alive
(Game Show Host??)/Town
Kill


Elenna
Alive
???



[td]Metastachydium
Alive
???
Permanent Night kill immunity for targets??


CaoimhinTheCape
Dead
Cecil Palmer/Mafia
Mafia Kill
Dawn broadcast


Rogan
Alive
???
Prophecy, wrong results



Please check and help me fill the gaps.

Oh, thats easy to clarify, what was wrong I mean. He gave me random abilities to hand out at first. I ahd these things I could give out but I didn't know what they could actually do. I pointed out that that was specifically againstb his rules, and he then gave me a description of each ability.

[AvatarVecna]

I meant that each of your posts gave 2/3 wolves, with you and AV being innocent. I'm thinking using both abilities at once gave each others names somehow. And, if anything if I'm right about both of your names showing up via a "same power at once" kinda glitch thing(No I don't have any idea what the redacted wording would have to say for that to happen) then Cap being innocent and Snow being innocent only proves the theory more.
But again I'm not married to the idea, just tossing out ideas wildly, that being said, what I am married to 100% is that it cannot just be as simple as false answers, if it were, everyone but you, AV, Taff, and goof would be non-hostile, and everyone else hostile.

I wanna see if I'm understanding your theory correctly.

You're proposing that when I received this answer...


AvatarVecna, ROGAN, TAFFIMAI and SUPAGOOF are all of the players in the game with an anti-town role.

...that the results given are "FALSE, TRUE, AND TRUE"? And the only FALSE answer in the set is because Rogan was using the same power in the same way on the same night, and we gave each other pseudo-scry-interference? And that means that Supagoof is mafia and Taffimai is another anti-town neutral?

This isn't a sarcastic question, I want to understand if this is what you're thinking right now.

[moonfly7]

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I can also give someone a telegram ability. It lets them give like, one message that appears during the day.

That and the other two I mentioned are my only remaining abilities.

[AvatarVecna]

I think your right in who you can trust. Everyone else, including me, sadly, is not Mech cleared and should be considered a possible hostile. Obviously, I hate the idea of dying. Especially when I have both a bane, and a Roleblock left to give, but I can't argue with the application of the very logic I'm preaching. It's a solid plan. Although it does nothing to check snow, sadly. But you can do that afterwards, I suppose.
Also it doesn't check BCH, whom I think is worth a check as well, but again, beggars can't be choosers.

I mean, it kinda doesn't have to. The point is that if we follow this plan through without any extra deaths, then we've checked 4 of the 6 people. If we've found no scum, the remaining two must be scum. By checking 4 of them, we effectively check the last two as well. The wolves have to be somewhere. It's process of elimination. And in both my examples, town still has control of the lynch (unless the neutral sides against us).

[moonfly7]

I wanna see if I'm understanding your theory correctly.

You're proposing that when I received this answer...



...that the results given are "FALSE, TRUE, AND TRUE"? And the only FALSE answer in the set is because Rogan was using the same power in the same way on the same night, and we gave each other pseudo-scry-interference? And that means that Supagoof is mafia and Taffimai is another anti-town neutral?

This isn't a sarcastic question, I want to understand if this is what you're thinking right now.

I'm....not married to that Idea. But that was what I was proposing at the time yes.

My theory NOW though(which I stated after this one), is that it was False, False, True. Taff and Rogan are cleared, Goof is Mafia. Under the assumption that you only get one correct answer when you have multiple answers from one question. If you think about it, it keeps Rogans power useful but not OP. If he just asks true/false's, he would then always get correct answers, but trying the ultimate question would, according to this theory, only give him one Mafia Name.

[Rogan]

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I can also give someone a telegram ability. It lets them give like, one message that appears during the day.

That and the other two I mentioned are my only remaining abilities.

Hm, what's the priority of your gift? I mean, when do you hand them out? Slow seems to be the most likely?

[moonfly7]

I mean, it kinda doesn't have to. The point is that if we follow this plan through without any extra deaths, then we've checked 4 of the 6 people. If we've found no scum, the remaining two must be scum. By checking 4 of them, we effectively check the last two as well. The wolves have to be somewhere. It's process of elimination. And in both my examples, town still has control of the lynch (unless the neutral sides against us).

Oh I absolutely agree it doesn't have to, I was just saying. I think it's an absolutely solid plan, and I think we might as well go with it unless someone has a better idea. Kinda wish I wasn't the one targeted by my own stupid gifted ability, but, if it wins us the game it wins us the game.

- - - Updated - - -


Hm, what's the priority of your gift? I mean, when do you hand them out? Slow seems to be the most likely?

Wait, no I just checked! It doesn't matter if I die! I have fast priority! Ok, this makes it much better to kill me at night. Although, admittedly I could hand out all of my useful abilities if you waited one more night to kill me. But I doubt that will happen.

[Elenna]

Unfortunately I have a headache and haven't been able to focus on this. Some random thoughts:


I was confident Rogan will be baned. I knew you weren't. I just trusted my bluff to work. (You might notice that the term I used was unlikely, rather than impossible).\

The Goof was instructed to bane you.
And you were confident that Goof was town and would actually bane Rogan? When most people were suspicious of him?
Makes me suspect Meta but probably we'd be better off checking them via kill colour. moonfly, have you confirmed with Unavenger that the kill will show Meta's kill colour and not yours?

I agree that Rogan's power is more likely to be entirely false answers rather than partly false answers since the former is actually useful, unlike the latter.

I'm also becoming paranoid about Snow. Especially since I know gac's RAC quote wasn't from me. Still not paranoid enough to actually vote her, though.

I can't blame people for being suspicious of me (I'd be suspicious of me at this point if I didn't know I was town, if only by POE) but if anyone wants to daykill me please let me know so I can claim first. It won't be super helpful to town but it'll at least answer a couple questions you'll likely have after my flip.

- - - Updated - - -


I'm....not married to that Idea. But that was what I was proposing at the time yes.

My theory NOW though(which I stated after this one), is that it was False, False, True. Taff and Rogan are cleared, Goof is Mafia. Under the assumption that you only get one correct answer when you have multiple answers from one question. If you think about it, it keeps Rogans power useful but not OP. If he just asks true/false's, he would then always get correct answers, but trying the ultimate question would, according to this theory, only give him one Mafia Name.
Hmm okay that's plausible. Although AV's illegal QT does seem like good reason to townread Goof.
(Kinda feel bad using an illegal move to get a read on Goof but I can't un-know it now.)

[AvatarVecna]

I'm....not married to that Idea. But that was what I was proposing at the time yes.

Your first theory is definitely wrong, because the "vague interference if another person uses Rogan's power on the same night" theory doesn't explain why the first question was wrong too. If the N2 question was correct except for the AV answer (which was false due to interference), then the answer the first night should've been correct (since there was no interference). Except...the first question was if all the mafia members were in a group of 8 players. Of those 8, 2 are mech-cleared (blade/taff), one is basically cleared (me), and of the remaining 5, 4 of them are dead townies. The first night's question is only correct if the only remaining scum player is Supagoof. This requires that the game started with two mafia and half a serial killer, which...no. Not even with all these extra kill powers.


My theory NOW though(which I stated after this oneO, is that it was False, False, True. Taff and Rogan are cleared, Goof is Mafia. Under the assumption that you only get one correct answer when you have multiple answers from one question. If you think about it, it keeps Rogans power useful but not OP. If he just asks true/false's, he would then always get correct answers, but trying the ultimate question would, according to this theory, only give him one Mafia Name.

This theory is also false because rogan's N1 question was, in fact, a true/false question (namely, "does this list contain all mafia members"). For your theory to be correct, the wording on the redacted part of his power would have to be incredibly precise such that if he asks a binary yes/no question about a list of people, he will receive a 'yes' if there's one 'yes' person in the list, even if there's a 'yes' person outside the list.

Occam's razor. Sure, it's entirely possible that the way Rogan's power is actually worded is some strange legalese that prevents him from ever gaining more information than a normal seer (on top of the limitation that he's only able to answer questions that other people asked in-thread). Or...Rogan's two limitations are 1) he's limited to answering questions asked in-thread, and 2) he receives only false answers. When he asked "are all mafia in this list", the answer was no, so he was told "yes". When he asked for the names of all anti-town roles, he received three names of people who are not anti-town roles. He didn't receive the names of every non-anti-town role in the game because that wouldn't look plausible and would ruin the point of lying to him about it, so he only got some of the names. That's it, no big mystery.

That, on top of snow confirming goof's targeting, and on top of goof trying to keep me from accidentally suiciding by copying his bane, is why I'm not going to be convinced to lynch our baner unless a seer stands up and fingers him. If all you have is supposition that maybe Rogan's redacted power is written in a way where Supagoof is the only guilty person in either list, but no actual proof, all that's doing is making me more suspicious of you trying to get us to lynch our baner.

[Elenna]

That, on top of snow confirming goof's targeting, and on top of goof trying to keep me from accidentally suiciding by copying his bane, is why I'm not going to be convinced to lynch our baner unless a seer stands up and fingers him. If all you have is supposition that maybe Rogan's redacted power is written in a way where Supagoof is the only guilty person in either list, but no actual proof, all that's doing is making me more suspicious of you trying to get us to lynch our baner.

That was me confirming goof's targeting. But yeah, I agree.

[AvatarVecna]

Hmm okay that's plausible. Although AV's illegal QT does seem like good reason to townread Goof.
(Kinda feel bad using an illegal move to get a read on Goof but I can't un-know it now.)

FWIW, I no longer have access to the QT, and the telling-off occurred via PMs, and I told Unavenger about it basically immediately. But yeah, it's kinda hard to un-know. >.<

- - - Updated - - -


That was me confirming goof's targeting. But yeah, I agree.

Whoops! My apologies. I'm subconsciously giving snow credit she doesn't deserve, that probably means we should execute her. :smalltongue:

[Rogan]

Unfortunately I have a headache and haven't been able to focus on this. Some random thoughts:

I'm also becoming paranoid about Snow. Especially since I know gac's RAC quote wasn't from me. Still not paranoid enough to actually vote her, though.

I can't blame people for being suspicious of me (I'd be suspicious of me at this point if I didn't know I was town, if only by POE) but if anyone wants to daykill me please let me know so I can claim first. It won't be super helpful to town but it'll at least answer a couple questions you'll likely have after my flip.

I hope your head will stop hurting soon.

Who might have been addressed by the RAC quote again? AV was playing, but not as spy? Snow and Elenna? Who else?

No need to fully claim just yet, but you said you were tracking Goof, right?

[moonfly7]

Your first theory is definitely wrong, because the "vague interference if another person uses Rogan's power on the same night" theory doesn't explain why the first question was wrong too. If the N2 question was correct except for the AV answer (which was false due to interference), then the answer the first night should've been correct (since there was no interference). Except...the first question was if all the mafia members were in a group of 8 players. Of those 8, 2 are mech-cleared (blade/taff), one is basically cleared (me), and of the remaining 5, 4 of them are dead townies. The first night's question is only correct if the only remaining scum player is Supagoof. This requires that the game started with two mafia and half a serial killer, which...no. Not even with all these extra kill powers.



This theory is also false because rogan's N1 question was, in fact, a true/false question (namely, "does this list contain all mafia members"). For your theory to be correct, the wording on the redacted part of his power would have to be incredibly precise such that if he asks a binary yes/no question about a list of people, he will receive a 'yes' if there's one 'yes' person in the list, even if there's a 'yes' person outside the list.

Occam's razor. Sure, it's entirely possible that the way Rogan's power is actually worded is some strange legalese that prevents him from ever gaining more information than a normal seer (on top of the limitation that he's only able to answer questions that other people asked in-thread). Or...Rogan's two limitations are 1) he's limited to answering questions asked in-thread, and 2) he receives only false answers. When he asked "are all mafia in this list", the answer was no, so he was told "yes". When he asked for the names of all anti-town roles, he received three names of people who are not anti-town roles. He didn't receive the names of every non-anti-town role in the game because that wouldn't look plausible and would ruin the point of lying to him about it, so he only got some of the names. That's it, no big mystery.

That, on top of snow confirming goof's targeting, and on top of goof trying to keep me from accidentally suiciding by copying his bane, is why I'm not going to be convinced to lynch our baner unless a seer stands up and fingers him. If all you have is supposition that maybe Rogan's redacted power is written in a way where Supagoof is the only guilty person in either list, but no actual proof, all that's doing is making me more suspicious of you trying to get us to lynch our baner.

Quite frankly, I don't put near as much weight to goof at all. I'm not really for or against his death, it just happens to be the vote I think is the best option right now, until Snow gets a response up. Vote how you wish, I don't care which way you swing nor do I care enough about the Goof wagon to try to argue you around to it. All I'm going to say is that you should stick to the plan you came up with. It's solid, I can get off a new Bane gift even, if you want it. And also, if Meta is telling the truth we have a much more solid baner than goof out here, though I'm not sure on Meta's loyalties either.
And if you wanna lynch someone other than goof on the first day for the plan, be my guest. So long as it isn't Metaschydium and me, since you aren't getting the double check if you do.

As for my theories, your right and I hadn't thought about that. Ah well, they were still just spitballs. I still don't think the power works the way we've said it does. But I suppose it doesn't matter, and is a waste of energy to discuss. All that matters is that it's wrong in some way and can't be trusted.

- - - Updated - - -

Also once again, it is still possible Elena is lying about seeing Goofs work. Just saying it, we've had peopkle suspicious of both and now the only one coroborating Goofs story is her. But that could just be a coincidence, and I am still wearing my Tin Hat.

[AvatarVecna]

Ultimately it doesn't matter though. I think that there are only four people who could possibly be wolves, even if I'm willing to admit that Snow and Supagoof could be considered after that point. If I'm wrong, it doesn't actually matter, because of this:


Hypothetical situation:

D3: starts 7-1-2, lynch elenna (town), ends 6-1-2
N3: starts 6-1-2, scum NK ? (town), blade NK BCH (town), meta NK moon (town/town), ends 3-1-2.

Here we are, start of D4. The town players are blade, rogan, and whichever of AV/meta the wolves didn't kill. The neutral is taffimai. The scumbuddies are Snowblaze and Supagoof.

And everybody knows it.

Even if I'm wrong about goof, it doesn't matter. We check four people from our list of six, and now town knows the alignments of all living players...in a game where it's three townies and two scum. Scum will need to get taffimai on their side to even have a chance. And that's assuming we don't get lucky with our three kills and hit a scum player by accident!

If I'm right, and there's only four possible people who could be scum, then the above quote-plan checks all of them today and tonight. Snow and goof are town in this world, and both of the remaining mafia die in a hail of gunfire (along with one innocent life, rest in pepperoni). D4 never starts because all scum are dead and the game is over.

[Rogan]

I think she (Elenna) was in The Thing and asked a question for the narrator about an auto lynch, a question that would look townie on the surface (the things would know this already so no need to ask) but was utterly irrelevant to the game state. I think, she was a thing at this time.


Elenna, just for my wounded confidence in my memory, did the situation in the thing happen like I described?


Meta Supagoof (1)
Taffimai Taffimai (1)
AV Elenna (1)
Rogan Wombat (1)
Moonfly Wombat (2)
Elenna Meta (1)
Snow Wombat (3)
Blade Wombat (4)
BatCat Wombat (5)
Elenna BatCat (1) Meta (0)
Meta BatCat (2) Supagoof (0)
Rogan BatCat (3) Dead Wombat (4)
Moonfly Supagoof (1) Dead Wombat (3)



Currently, the dead Wombat is tied with Bat, Cat and Hat. But since votes for dead people don't count, BCH is going to die unless things change.







Player Name
Status?
Identity?/Alignment?
Powers?


AvatarVecna
Alive
???
JoaT (each power is one-use)??
Bane?? (Used, failed)
Kill (need identity)??
Dayvig (works only on Serial Killer, used, failed)
Feedback power (only after 1 shot immunity?)
Duplicate power (need exact name, used successfully)


Captain Cap
Dead
The Pied Piper of Hamelin/Town
Roleblock, vote manipulation effect


Snowblaze
Alive
???
???


Batcathat
Alive
???
???


Supagoof
Alive
???
Protection, Beast?? Used on Rogan n2, not triggered


Taffimai
Alive
???/Survivor??
Dayvig (last to vote, used)
Lynch protection (used)


gac3
extra Dead, for real this time
Melinda Gordon/Town
Dead chat access


Book Wombat
Dead
Mr Hyde/ Killer & Dr Jekyll / Survivor
Kill&night immunity / block & -1 vote


fext
Dead
Flying Pumpkin/Town
Night 1 Kill Immunity
Kill
Fast kill (only activates against Mafia/Serial Killer, one use)


moonfly7
Alive
???
Gifting powers (full scry, kill, ..)


Xihirli
Wanted: Dead or Alive
Blue Angel/Town
Roleblock
Kill (only those previously roleblocked)


bladescape
Alive
(Game Show Host??)/Town
Kill


Elenna
Alive
???



[td]Metastachydium
Alive
???
Permanent Night kill immunity for targets??


CaoimhinTheCape
Dead
Cecil Palmer/Mafia
Mafia Kill
Dawn broadcast


Rogan
Alive
???
Prophecy, wrong results



Please check and help me fill the gaps.
Snow and BatCatHat it might be time to claim at least some parts of your skillset.

[moonfly7]

Ultimately it doesn't matter though. I think that there are only four people who could possibly be wolves, even if I'm willing to admit that Snow and Supagoof could be considered after that point. If I'm wrong, it doesn't actually matter, because of this:



Here we are, start of D4. The town players are blade, rogan, and whichever of AV/meta the wolves didn't kill. The neutral is taffimai. The scumbuddies are Snowblaze and Supagoof.

And everybody knows it.

Even if I'm wrong about goof, it doesn't matter. We check four people from our list of six, and now town knows the alignments of all living players...in a game where it's three townies and two scum. Scum will need to get taffimai on their side to even have a chance. And that's assuming we don't get lucky with our three kills and hit a scum player by accident!

If I'm right, and there's only four possible people who could be scum, then the above quote-plan checks all of them today and tonight. Snow and goof are town in this world, and both of the remaining mafia die in a hail of gunfire (along with one innocent life, rest in pepperoni). D4 never starts because all scum are dead and the game is over.

Well, you still gotta lynch Meta if his kill is red. But I doubt that's gonna happen. I for one, am all for the plan, but I will point out it's flaws because understanding how we can make it better is important.

Your assuming they'll kill you or Rogan, I don't think they will. why on earth do they care if you live or die? Rogans power has to many flaws to be an ace in the hole now, and you yourself are out of any real threatening powers(that we know of). If I was mafia I'd kill you 2 last, assuming you even can Night kill the people Meta has claimed a Perma protection on(if he's telling the truth, you can't). it's possible there's at least one mafia roleblocker left, and equally possible that they kill one of our kill roles. And if Meta is mafia, he's going to not use his kill ability, and then claim it was blocked, thus ruining the plan.

Also, if your clearing supagoof, you need to consider that Elena has no reason to clear goof if goof really is Town, unless Elena is also town. So if you have Goof in your kill last brakcet, Elena might need to be there instead of snow, but that's just my opinion.

That's just everything I think can go wrong off the top of my head, that being said, I still wholeheartedly endorse it, and will drop my vote on Elena for now. Unless you change the target, or Snow has unsatisfactory claims.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I have not gotten a response on the kill color thing, waiting or Unavenger to answer me on that.

[AvatarVecna]

Well, you still gotta lynch Meta if his kill is red. But I doubt that's gonna happen. I for one, am all for the plan, but I will point out it's flaws because understanding how we can make it better is important.

Nothing wrong with nitpicking to improve things.


Your assuming they'll kill you or Rogan, I don't think they will. why on earth do they care if you live or die? Rogans power has to many flaws to be an ace in the hole now, and you yourself are out of any real threatening powers(that we know of).

It's process of elimination. Town gets to check four people in the next day/night unless meta is a wolf/a townkill is interfered with in some fashion. Wolves don't want to clear a person from our list; if the scumteam murders (for example) moonfly7, and moon flips town, that's one more person in the pool that town doesn't have to spend a kill on. Even if we did spend a kill on moon N3, that just means that one fewer townies is dead (blade kills moon, scum kills moon, that has the night end in 4-1-2 instead of 3-1-2). Thus, town doesn't want to kill any of those 6 players. This means scumteam wants to kill one of the four people not in the pool: AvatarVecna, Rogan, bladescape, or Taffimai. They don't wanna target Rogan or blade in case Meta is telling the truth about perma-banes, and they don't wanna kill Taff because a neutral/scum alliance might be their only chance at victory by this point. By process of elimination, they basically have to murder me. Anything else risks them wasting their kill, killing their only possible ally, or worst of all helps town catch them quicker.


And if Meta is mafia, he's going to not use his kill ability, and then claim it was blocked, thus ruining the plan.

You are correct, and it still doesn't matter.

D3: 7-1-2. lynch Elenna (town). 6-1-2.
N3: 6-1-2. scum NK AV (town). blade NK moon (town). 4-1-2.

Killing anybody besides AV N3 either clears the pool for town, kills the neutral ally, or reveals meta's lie early. At this point, it's D3, and we've still got Meta and BCH to check from my 4, and goof/snow if it turns out I'm wrong (with meta secretly being one of the wolves).

D4: 4-1-2. lynch BCH (town). 3-1-2.
N4: 3-1-2. scum NK blade or Rogan (town). blade NK meta (scum). 2-1-1.

Under this plan, meta is the last one checked, and since they know the jig is up, they kill one of the supposedly-perma-baned townies. At this point, it's D4, we've still got goof and Snow to check, and there's only one scum left. It's possible (maybe even likely) that Elenna, Moon, or BCH flipped scum instead of town and the game is over instead. But we're talking worst-case scenario here. At this point, the town is Snow, Goof, Taffimai, and either Rogan or bladescape. Rogan is a bad choice for scum because he gets two more night's of questions to play with. bladescape is a bad choice for scum because they're terrifyingly good at analysis. This isn't quite the slam dunk the other "worst case scenarios" were for town, but it's still pretty great tbh.

Let's rewind, and assume that meta is town but just got blocked from killing N3.

D3: 7-1-2. lynch elenna (own). 6-1-2.
N3: 6-1-2. scum NK AV (town). blade NK moon (town). 4-1-2.
D4: 4-1-2. lynch BCH (town). 3-1-2.
N4: 3-1-2. blade NK meta (town). 2-1-2

If meta is town, but gets blocked, and nothing interferes with anybody else's kills, the game ends in a coinflip decided by Taffimai. If elenna/moon/BCH flipped scum instead...

N4: 4-1-2. scum NK goof (town). blade NK meta (town). 2-1-2

...then once again, the game ends in a coinflip decided by taffimai.

Of course, there is one thing that complicates all of this. If I'm right about goof, then supagoof banes me, and now scum has no good options. Killing one of our six narrows the pool. killing blade/rogan is either impossible or outs meta. killing taff gets rid of the person who wins them the endgame cointosses. killing AV kills supagoof, which narrows the pool. supagoof being town (as I'm about 90% sure he is) shifts all of these possibilities ever-so-slightly more in town's favor than they already are.


Also, if your clearing supagoof, you need to consider that Elena has no reason to clear goof if goof really is Town, unless Elena is also town. So if you have Goof in your kill last brakcet, Elena might need to be there instead of snow, but that's just my opinion.

Pocketing a baner isn't the worst move in the world. I could see Elenna clearing Supagoof when half of town wants to kill him, and then if we lynch him she could be like "see I was right he was town". I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, just that I don't think I can clear her just because I'm clearing goof.

[Rogan]

Living Players


AvatarVecna
Snowblaze
Batcathat
SupaGoof
Taffimai
Moonfly7
BladeScape
Elenna
Metastachydium
Rogan


AV, Rogan, Blades, Taffy - mech cleared or as close as possible

Elenna is tied to Goof. Don't kill both.
Meta has a kill to show his alignment.
Moon has creepy / evil fluff, but can still be Town. She can also hand out gifts. Don't kill her before the night.

Bat and Snow would need to claim something to be not suspected.

So, if Elenna is Town, Goof seems to be Town as well. Goof can use his claimed bane/kill power in towns favor. This would be in favor of lynching Elenna, even if she is not the top suspect. Town!Elenna would also paint a bad light on Snow, for the Quote gac managed to provide. Wolf!Elenna would be a Wolf so a good target in any case.

Meta... should not shoot anyone protected, no matter the alignment. Can you shoot and protect in the same night?
Also, blades is immune to kills, right? Who else?

Moon can gift either Bane or Block. She can also be killed after giving her power away, which would be not nice, but could be helpful.

Assuming Elenna dies today and flips town:
Meta shots Snow.
Goof protects AV.
Moon gifts a power to Rogan
Rogan is useless. Might try another prophecy, if someone has a nice question or statement.
Blades kills Batcathat
Snow does???
Bat does???

Mafia kills Rogan or Moon?

Worst case, Meta and Snow or Moon are scum.
Goof dies to the mafia (not triggering the beast power and removing a protective power for the next night.
Blades dies to the Mafia, removing a kill power for the next night.
BatCatHat dies.

Next day, it's AV, Rogan, Moon, Taff vs Snow and Meta or AV, Rogan, Snow, Taff vs Meta and Moon.

Kill Meta during the day.

In the night, it's Snow vs AV, Rogan, Moon, Taff.
Snow kills AV or Rogan.
OR
In the night, it's Moon vs AV, Rogan, Snow, Taff.
Moon kills AV or Rogan.

Next day, it's (AV or Rogan), Taff, Moon, Snow.
2 town, 1 survivor, 1 scum. But it's hard to tell which one of Snow or Moon is Scum...


Sooo... Would another plan help preventing this situation?

[moonfly7]

Nothing wrong with nitpicking to improve things.



It's process of elimination. Town gets to check four people in the next day/night unless meta is a wolf/a townkill is interfered with in some fashion. Wolves don't want to clear a person from our list; if the scumteam murders (for example) moonfly7, and moon flips town, that's one more person in the pool that town doesn't have to spend a kill on. Even if we did spend a kill on moon N3, that just means that one fewer townies is dead (blade kills moon, scum kills moon, that has the night end in 4-1-2 instead of 3-1-2). Thus, town doesn't want to kill any of those 6 players. This means scumteam wants to kill one of the four people not in the pool: AvatarVecna, Rogan, bladescape, or Taffimai. They don't wanna target Rogan or blade in case Meta is telling the truth about perma-banes, and they don't wanna kill Taff because a neutral/scum alliance might be their only chance at victory by this point. By process of elimination, they basically have to murder me. Anything else risks them wasting their kill, killing their only possible ally, or worst of all helps town catch them quicker.



You are correct, and it still doesn't matter.

D3: 7-1-2. lynch Elenna (town). 6-1-2.
N3: 6-1-2. scum NK AV (town). blade NK moon (town). 4-1-2.

Killing anybody besides AV N3 either clears the pool for town, kills the neutral ally, or reveals meta's lie early. At this point, it's D3, and we've still got Meta and BCH to check from my 4, and goof/snow if it turns out I'm wrong (with meta secretly being one of the wolves).

D4: 4-1-2. lynch BCH (town). 3-1-2.
N4: 3-1-2. scum NK blade or Rogan (town). blade NK meta (scum). 2-1-1.

Under this plan, meta is the last one checked, and since they know the jig is up, they kill one of the supposedly-perma-baned townies. At this point, it's D4, we've still got goof and Snow to check, and there's only one scum left. It's possible (maybe even likely) that Elenna, Moon, or BCH flipped scum instead of town and the game is over instead. But we're talking worst-case scenario here. At this point, the town is Snow, Goof, Taffimai, and either Rogan or bladescape. Rogan is a bad choice for scum because he gets two more night's of questions to play with. bladescape is a bad choice for scum because they're terrifyingly good at analysis. This isn't quite the slam dunk the other "worst case scenarios" were for town, but it's still pretty great tbh.

Let's rewind, and assume that meta is town but just got blocked from killing N3.

D3: 7-1-2. lynch elenna (own). 6-1-2.
N3: 6-1-2. scum NK AV (town). blade NK moon (town). 4-1-2.
D4: 4-1-2. lynch BCH (town). 3-1-2.
N4: 3-1-2. blade NK meta (town). 2-1-2

If meta is town, but gets blocked, and nothing interferes with anybody else's kills, the game ends in a coinflip decided by Taffimai. If elenna/moon/BCH flipped scum instead...

N4: 4-1-2. scum NK goof (town). blade NK meta (town). 2-1-2

...then once again, the game ends in a coinflip decided by taffimai.

Of course, there is one thing that complicates all of this. If I'm right about goof, then supagoof banes me, and now scum has no good options. Killing one of our six narrows the pool. killing blade/rogan is either impossible or outs meta. killing taff gets rid of the person who wins them the endgame cointosses. killing AV kills supagoof, which narrows the pool. supagoof being town (as I'm about 90% sure he is) shifts all of these possibilities ever-so-slightly more in town's favor than they already are.



Pocketing a baner isn't the worst move in the world. I could see Elenna clearing Supagoof when half of town wants to kill him, and then if we lynch him she could be like "see I was right he was town". I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, just that I don't think I can clear her just because I'm clearing goof.

Nice counterpoints! But in the end they don't matter because I'm for the plan anyways. Rogan, Meta, if you two wouldn't mind endorsing the strategy here and dropping your votes on Elena, we can get this game solved by day 4 at the latest, possibly 5 if way to many roles get blocked. Either way I fear I will only be with you all for a short time regardless. So an important question: Do you want my roleblock or my Bane dropped on night 3?

- - - Updated - - -


Living Players


AvatarVecna
Snowblaze
Batcathat
SupaGoof
Taffimai
Moonfly7
BladeScape
Elenna
Metastachydium
Rogan


AV, Rogan, Blades, Taffy - mech cleared or as close as possible

Elenna is tied to Goof. Don't kill both.
Meta has a kill to show his alignment.
Moon has creepy / evil fluff, but can still be Town. She can also hand out gifts. Don't kill her before the night.

Bat and Snow would need to claim something to be not suspected.

So, if Elenna is Town, Goof seems to be Town as well. Goof can use his claimed bane/kill power in towns favor. This would be in favor of lynching Elenna, even if she is not the top suspect. Town!Elenna would also paint a bad light on Snow, for the Quote gac managed to provide. Wolf!Elenna would be a Wolf so a good target in any case.

Meta... should not shoot anyone protected, no matter the alignment. Can you shoot and protect in the same night?
Also, blades is immune to kills, right? Who else?

Moon can gift either Bane or Block. She can also be killed after giving her power away, which would be not nice, but could be helpful.

Assuming Elenna dies today and flips town:
Meta shots Snow.
Goof protects AV.
Moon gifts a power to Rogan
Rogan is useless. Might try another prophecy, if someone has a nice question or statement.
Blades kills Batcathat
Snow does???
Bat does???

Mafia kills Rogan or Moon?

Worst case, Meta and Snow or Moon are scum.
Goof dies to the mafia (not triggering the beast power and removing a protective power for the next night.
Blades dies to the Mafia, removing a kill power for the next night.
BatCatHat dies.

Next day, it's AV, Rogan, Moon, Taff vs Snow and Meta or AV, Rogan, Snow, Taff vs Meta and Moon.

Kill Meta during the day.

In the night, it's Snow vs AV, Rogan, Moon, Taff.
Snow kills AV or Rogan.
OR
In the night, it's Moon vs AV, Rogan, Snow, Taff.
Moon kills AV or Rogan.

Next day, it's (AV or Rogan), Taff, Moon, Snow.
2 town, 1 survivor, 1 scum. But it's hard to tell which one of Snow or Moon is Scum...


Sooo... Would another plan help preventing this situation?
Um....bro? I'm a dude. Not that you would know, so not your fault. I should probably add the male symbol to my profile but I keep forgetting that's a thing you can put down.

Also yes, my gifted powers specifically work even if your regular abilities say only one power a night. Which is why handing the kill one to a Mafia member on accident would be very, very bad. 2 kills for mafia that night.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh also only my kill ability is creepy and evil sounding. Everything else isn't.

[Elenna]

Okay yeah I think AV's plan only fails if Snow is wolf, in which case kudos for good bussing, Snow.

@AV, I'm curious, when I flip town, will you rethink Snow's towniness based on the RAC quote? Or will you just assume that quote was wrong?


Elenna, just for my wounded confidence in my memory, did the situation in the thing happen like I described?
I don't really remember The Thing, but I skim-read it and I think that did happen, yes - after being converted to a Thing I asked the narrator to confirm whether or not the auto-lynched player was a Thing since the narration wasn't completely clear about it, and obviously I knew they weren't.

[Rogan]

Nice counterpoints! But in the end they don't matter because I'm for the plan anyways. Rogan, Meta, if you two wouldn't mind endorsing the strategy here and dropping your votes on Elena, we can get this game solved by day 4 at the latest, possibly 5 if way to many roles get blocked. Either way I fear I will only be with you all for a short time regardless. So an important question: Do you want my roleblock or my Bane dropped on night 3?

Hmmm... I think, the block might be better.
Block someone and there is a kill? The person blocked was not the killer. Block someone and there is no kill? The person blocked is more likely to be the killer.

Elenna I'm afraid, you need to die today.

So, please claim your actions before EoD, so we can take them into consideration as well.

[moonfly7]

So to be clear Rogan, you don't think meta should gank me in the night? Because I still think it's the best way to clear the most people.

[AvatarVecna]

Okay yeah I think AV's plan only fails if Snow is wolf, in which case kudos for good bussing, Snow.

@AV, I'm curious, when I flip town, will you rethink Snow's towniness based on the RAC quote? Or will you just assume that quote was wrong?


I don't really remember The Thing, but I skim-read it and I think that did happen, yes - after being converted to a Thing I asked the narrator to confirm whether or not the auto-lynched player was a Thing since the narration wasn't completely clear about it, and obviously I knew they weren't.

Yeah if snow is scum and it comes down to rogan/taff/snow/Goof, town has a conflict at best. That situation requires meta to be scum tho.

If you flip town, I'm willing to reevaluate snow, and will look for a case overnight just in case I die.

[moonfly7]

Although speaking completely honestly, killing me is not the best use of our resources from my point of view, but only because I know I'm innocent. If you could take me at face value(which you can't sadly, no mech clear) you would have Blade and Meta NK one of either Supagoof, Snowblaze, or Batcathat, after we Lynch Elena. If they both went off that would leave us with either a won game, or one last person to lynch, the one we didn't choose.

Sadly we won't be doing the most efficient plan because there isn't a mechanical clear on me, so it's mostly just conjecture.

[Rogan]

Um....bro? I'm a dude. Not that you would know, so not your fault. I should probably add the male symbol to my profile but I keep forgetting that's a thing you can put down.

Also yes, my gifted powers specifically work even if your regular abilities say only one power a night. Which is why handing the kill one to a Mafia member on accident would be very, very bad. 2 kills for mafia that night.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh also only my kill ability is creepy and evil sounding. Everything else isn't.

Arrrr... sorry Moon. I am horrible about using the right pronouns... I start to see the appeal of using they in all cases.
Also, since I am only online on mobile, I would not see the gender symbol that often. I switch to the normal view from time to time, but usually that's for using a specific function that's unavailable in Mobil mode.


Okay yeah I think AV's plan only fails if Snow is wolf, in which case kudos for good bussing, Snow.

@AV, I'm curious, when I flip town, will you rethink Snow's towniness based on the RAC quote? Or will you just assume that quote was wrong?


I don't really remember The Thing, but I skim-read it and I think that did happen, yes - after being converted to a Thing I asked the narrator to confirm whether or not the auto-lynched player was a Thing since the narration wasn't completely clear about it, and obviously I knew they weren't.

Oh, right. The quote. I tend to think it is valid, so I would go after Snow.

Oh and thanks about the answer about The Thing. At least, I didn't imagine this one.

[moonfly7]

Yeah if snow is scum and it comes down to rogan/taff/snow/Goof, town has a conflict at best. That situation requires meta to be scum tho.

If you flip town, I'm willing to reevaluate snow, and will look for a case overnight just in case I die.
Yeah if Elena flips town we might consider having snow be a NK.

[Elenna]

Also I may as well claim, even if you don't lynch me I'm going to be NK'd, and for my power not claiming only helps town if I survive to tomorrow.

I'm a combination Seer/Tracker.
Role description (fluff redacted but all the mechanical stuff is here):

Elenna, you are [role name redacted], a SEER, TRACKER and a member of the TOWN. You win the game if you kill every hostile character or nothing can prevent this from happening, and at least one member of your team is alive.

You have ONE ability:

[ability name redacted] (Investigative Priority): Once per NIGHT, you may choose a living player: you learn their alignment and who targeted them that NIGHT.

N1 I scried bladescape. My reasoning was that he was a good target both because I was already suspicious of him (for asking people for wolf reads in the night) and because I generally have trouble reading him.

Possible targets because they're wolfy: gac, bladescape, Rogan, Cap
Possible targets because they might be NK'd and I might see a wolf target them: Snow, maybe Meta or Taffimai or BCH
Possible targets because I'll have trouble figuring them out any other way: AV, Xi, Supagoof, Fext, bladescape

Thinking I'll go with target bladescape for tonight.
(Also, I had Fext on my hard-to-read list because they barely said anything D1 - basically the same reason I had Supa on there - which is hilarious in retrospect.)

Unsurprisingly, bladescape scried as town. Also, nobody targeted him N1.

N2 I scried Rogan. I figured if he was wolf, obviously he'd be a good target, and if he was town, I'd see anyone who killed or roleblocked him. Obviously this didn't work out as well as I thought, Rogan scried as town and only Supa targeted them.

Rogan, this should answer your question from earlier - I targeted you, not Goof.

The whole "wolf!Rogan wouldn't let AV copy his power" thing, while true, was mostly an excuse for me to stop accusing Rogan since I'd scried him as town.

So, like I said, not super useful. I just wanted to claim to avoid town wasting a bunch of time/discussion trying to figure out who I scried.

[moonfly7]

CONFIRMATION(emphasis, not a power use): Metas night kill will show their color text, not mine!

[Rogan]

So to be clear Rogan, you don't think meta should gank me in the night? Because I still think it's the best way to clear the most people.

If Elenna is town, Snow is more likely to be scum than you. So killing you would not be that useful.
But pending Elennas info about her other action (and her flip).

[moonfly7]

Also I may as well claim, even if you don't lynch me I'm going to be NK'd, and for my power not claiming only helps town if I survive to tomorrow.

I'm a combination Seer/Tracker.
Role description (fluff redacted but all the mechanical stuff is here):


N1 I scried bladescape. My reasoning was that he was a good target both because I was already suspicious of him (for asking people for wolf reads in the night) and because I generally have trouble reading him.

(Also, I had Fext on my hard-to-read list because they barely said anything D1 - basically the same reason I had Supa on there - which is hilarious in retrospect.)

Unsurprisingly, bladescape scried as town. Also, nobody targeted him N1.

N2 I scried Rogan. I figured if he was wolf, obviously he'd be a good target, and if he was town, I'd see anyone who killed or roleblocked him. Obviously this didn't work out as well as I thought, Rogan scried as town and only Supa targeted them.

Rogan, this should answer your question from earlier - I targeted you, not Goof.

The whole "wolf!Rogan wouldn't let AV copy his power" thing, while true, was mostly an excuse for me to stop accusing Rogan since I'd scried him as town.

So, like I said, not super useful. I just wanted to claim to avoid town wasting a bunch of time/discussion trying to figure out who I scried.

I almost feel like with this is confirmation that she's town and we should lynch BCH or snow instead. But her death will clear Both herself and Goof, while her flipping mafia changes nothing. So she's still our best lynch.

[Elenna]

Oh yeah also, from my POV you're better off lynching someone else and NKing me as I don't have a bane, but obviously you can't trust me on that. I'm fine with being lynched today. (I mean, obviously I'd rather get another scry, but even if I did scry someone as wolf you wouldn't be able to trust that so you'd probably have to kill me first and then the other person and it seems faster to just go with AV's plan.)


Oh and thanks about the answer about The Thing. At least, I didn't imagine this one.
Incidentally, The Thing was only 8 pages. We're almost at the same number of pages on the second thread of this game. :smalleek:
Granted, The Thing only had 11 players one of whom was inactive, but still.

[moonfly7]

But this whole post from Elena rings true to me.

- - - Updated - - -

Buuuut I'm sticking with the agreed upon vote.

[Elenna]

I almost feel like with this is confirmation that she's town and we should lynch BCH or snow instead. But her death will clear Both herself and Goof, while her flipping mafia changes nothing. So she's still our best lynch.
Slight nitpick: technically my action doesn't clear Goof, since wolf!Goof could have targeted Rogan for other reasons related to his actual power. Or wolf!Goof could have targeted Rogan in case there was a tracker.

I mean, I'm pretty sure Goof is town now. But I wasn't nearly as sure before AV mentioned the QT Goof sent.

[Rogan]

Also I may as well claim, even if you don't lynch me I'm going to be NK'd, and for my power not claiming only helps town if I survive to tomorrow.

I'm a combination Seer/Tracker.
Role description (fluff redacted but all the mechanical stuff is here):


N1 I scried bladescape. My reasoning was that he was a good target both because I was already suspicious of him (for asking people for wolf reads in the night) and because I generally have trouble reading him.

(Also, I had Fext on my hard-to-read list because they barely said anything D1 - basically the same reason I had Supa on there - which is hilarious in retrospect.)

Unsurprisingly, bladescape scried as town. Also, nobody targeted him N1.

N2 I scried Rogan. I figured if he was wolf, obviously he'd be a good target, and if he was town, I'd see anyone who killed or roleblocked him. Obviously this didn't work out as well as I thought, Rogan scried as town and only Supa targeted them.

Rogan, this should answer your question from earlier - I targeted you, not Goof.

The whole "wolf!Rogan wouldn't let AV copy his power" thing, while true, was mostly an excuse for me to stop accusing Rogan since I'd scried him as town.

So, like I said, not super useful. I just wanted to claim to avoid town wasting a bunch of time/discussion trying to figure out who I scried.

Hmmm... While this is a good claim, it could be a lie.

I still wonder if we should keep you alive for one more day?
If you survive the night, you will have an interesting scry result, either clearing someone or dooming. Unfortunately, we won't know if we can trust you, but we could kill you then.

If town, your scry will help. If wolf you are dead.
It will shift our problem, unless the wolves handle this problem for us.

I think I believe you, but I would like AV to play the numbers game before I make an decision.
I am tired enough to fear mistakes...

(Which means, I should put my phone down and close my eyes...)

[Elenna]

Oh yeah also, from my POV you're better off lynching someone else and NKing me as I don't have a bane, but obviously you can't trust me on that. I'm fine with being lynched today. (I mean, obviously I'd rather get another scry, but even if I did scry someone as wolf you wouldn't be able to trust that so you'd probably have to kill me first and then the other person and it seems faster to just go with AV's plan.)

For clarification, I haven't actually done the math on whether it's worth it for y'all to leave me alive for another day so I can give another scry result before I die. But my instincts say it's not worth it unless Snow is wolf. And even then I'm not sure if town could kill both me and Snow fast enough, since you would presumably want to kill me first.

[Snowblaze]

I see I’m back on the suspect list. Honestly it’s fair atp with so few possible wolf candidates.

Fortunately I have a power that lets me confirm my alignment - thing is, it also reveals my role name which is going to lead to me being screwed over by whatever’s behind the “don’t reveal your role name” thing, hence why I didn’t use it earlier.

So I’ll use that tonight. It’s fast priority so I can’t be roleblocked. If you don’t have explicit confirmation by start of day four, I’ll self-vote and you can kill me.

Anyway, I support AV’s plan. Let’s kill Elenna.

[AvatarVecna]

FWIW, my plan should work regardless of which of the four/six we kill. Additionally, the more people it's possible to check, the quicker we can get through that list. For example, if Snowblaze can reveal herself as town, we don't wanna kill Snowblaze. And if Elenna is a seer, we probably don't wanna target her for the lynch today either. Supagoof is maybe a baner who can take away scum's only kill option that doesn't help us, and meta's kill can get a double-confirm if meta is town. That leaves moonfly (who can give powers, but not tonight, only tomorrow night when game might be over anyway), and BCH (who AFAIK hasn't made a power claim at all). With elenna claiming, I'd be fine moving to BCH if people are really that sure Elenna is town.

[Snowblaze]

FWIW, my plan should work regardless of which of the four/six we kill. Additionally, the more people it's possible to check, the quicker we can get through that list. For example, if Snowblaze can reveal herself as town, we don't wanna kill Snowblaze. And if Elenna is a seer, we probably don't wanna target her for the lynch today either. Supagoof is maybe a baner who can take away scum's only kill option that doesn't help us, and meta's kill can get a double-confirm if meta is town. That leaves moonfly (who can give powers, but not tonight, only tomorrow night when game might be over anyway), and BCH (who AFAIK hasn't made a power claim at all). With elenna claiming, I'd be fine moving to BCH if people are really that sure Elenna is town.

Yeah, makes sense. I’d like to kill one of Elenna/BCH but I don’t have any real opinion on which one dies first. Let’s see if/what BCH claims.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, makes sense. I’d like to kill one of Elenna/BCH but I don’t have any real opinion on which one dies first. Let’s see if/what BCH claims.

Yeah. The plan is more about showing that with the kills available to us, we can brute-force this ending (sorta, the worst-case scenarios where we take forever to find scum are a lil iffy). But the more people we can check without killing them, the easier this gets for us.

[Batcathat]

Snow and BatCatHat it might be time to claim at least some parts of your skillset.

Fair enough. At this point I doubt it'll negatively impact neither our chances of winning nor my personal chances of surviving (it might make the wolves a little more likely to target me at night but right now I'm probably more likely to get killed by town).


Batcathat, you are (CENSORED), a GUNSMITH, MOTION DETECTOR and member of the TOWN. You win the game if you kill every hostile character or nothing can prevent this from happening, and at least one member of your team is still alive.

You have ONE ability:

(CENSORED) (Investigation Priority): Once per NIGHT, choose a living player. If it is an ODD NIGHT, you are told whether this player has a killing ability. If it is an EVEN NIGHT, you are told (CENSORED) if they used an ability that night OR the preceding day or both, "(CENSORED)if they were the target of an ability in that time, "Neither" if neither and "Both" if both.

The first night I targeted Meta and learned they didn't have any killing power (ironically, it seems they would later get one). Since it means he was neither wolf nor SK, this could've been useful in preventing AV from wasting a use of the lever power but I didn't catch up until it was too late. Night two I targeted Elenna. My even nights power isn't as useful, but I was hoping I might catch her in a lie (like if she said she'd protected someone but I could see she hadn't used a power or something like that). She did use a power, but as she said so herself it doesn't really say much.

I'd be happy to take requests for who I should target tonight (and learn if they have a kill power), even if I suspect my answer won't be trusted until I'm checked out myself.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, a motion detector...I'm having difficulty getting much use out of that one right now. A seer, sure, but...let's say you target goof tonight. You learn if he was targeted tonight/last night by anybody else, and if he targeted anybody tonight/last night. I'm...unsure how this information could be used to clear or catch anybody right now, or at least anybody that we don't already have a better method for doing the same. We're running out of good lynch choices.

[Batcathat]

Yeah, a motion detector...I'm having difficulty getting much use out of that one right now. A seer, sure, but...let's say you target goof tonight. You learn if he was targeted tonight/last night by anybody else, and if he targeted anybody tonight/last night. I'm...unsure how this information could be used to clear or catch anybody right now, or at least anybody that we don't already have a better method for doing the same. We're running out of good lynch choices.

No, if I target Goof tonight I'll learn if he has a kill power or not, since it's an odd night.

[AvatarVecna]

No, if I target Goof tonight I'll learn if he has a kill power or not, since it's an odd night.

Ah, right. That's...slightly more useful? But unless the scumteam is Elenna/goof, goof targeted rogan last night, and we know mafia got a kill on gac. And his other actions are very strange if he's scum.

[Batcathat]

Ah, right. That's...slightly more useful? But unless the scumteam is Elenna/goof, goof targeted rogan last night, and we know mafia got a kill on gac. And his other actions are very strange if he's scum.

I guess. I'm still leaning wolf on Goof, but it's admittedly not based on anything substantial. Like I said, I'm happy to target anyone a majority wishes me to.

[Snowblaze]

...yeah, there's quite a bit of overlap in the Elenna/Batcathat claims. Exactly one wolf in Elenna/Batcathat :)

Not that I can work out which one it is, but. Small victories, right?

[Rogan]

Sooo...
Snow is an innocent child at night.
Elenna has a scry/watch power.
Bat... I think his claim is a bit strange, as I would expect a gunsmith to hand out a gun for someone else to use. See this (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Gunsmith) but also my own idea. But his power is also weird enough to be townie.

I think I will rather stay at Elenna. Her power nearly seems too good to be true. Compare it to mine, which, if used conservative (only checking one person), would be an (always false) scry, which is limited to persons who have a statement to check or an question to be asked.

[Metastachydium]

The first night I targeted Meta and learned they didn't have any killing power (ironically, it seems they would later get one).

Are you saying that you knew ever since day 1 that I can't be scum, but you couldn't be bothered to tell anyone right until you basically had to claim?

[Snowblaze]

Are you saying that you knew ever since day 1 that I can't be scum, but you couldn't be bothered to tell anyone right until you basically had to claim?

Seems like it. I could see town doing that, though. You weren't really widely suspected until today, so it would make sense to keep their mouth shut in case they got nightkilled before they could get more results.

[AvatarVecna]

Seems like it. I could see town doing that, though. You weren't really widely suspected until today, so it would make sense to keep their mouth shut in case they got nightkilled before they could get more results.

See, I could understand that if they spoke up when I started really accusing Meta. But they didn't. They saved that info for when their own ass was on the line. And they're talking like the information they can potentially gain tonight is a reason not to lynch them today, and even without the above sus nonsense...no??? Like, if they detect that somebody doesn't have a kill, that target can't be mafia. But there's been plenty of people who aren't mafia and have kill powers even on town (blade and myself, just for a couple living examples). It's not really as valuable as a scry, which makes me more willing to lynch them than Elenna just based on usefulness. Combine that with the "why didnt you claim 12 hours ago when meta was in the crosshairs and not you"...

[moonfly7]

FWIW, my plan should work regardless of which of the four/six we kill. Additionally, the more people it's possible to check, the quicker we can get through that list. For example, if Snowblaze can reveal herself as town, we don't wanna kill Snowblaze. And if Elenna is a seer, we probably don't wanna target her for the lynch today either. Supagoof is maybe a baner who can take away scum's only kill option that doesn't help us, and meta's kill can get a double-confirm if meta is town. That leaves moonfly (who can give powers, but not tonight, only tomorrow night when game might be over anyway), and BCH (who AFAIK hasn't made a power claim at all). With elenna claiming, I'd be fine moving to BCH if people are really that sure Elenna is town.

I don't know where you got that "not tonight" part. Unless I get roleblocked I can give out an ability tonight. Even if you kill me I will still give out an ability before I die. And I still have a Bane and a Block.

Now, it can't be used by anyone till the next night, if that's what you mean.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah...admittedly batcathat is looking suspicious. So, let's talk strategy. Whose killing who tonight?
Snow claims to have a self clearing ability. So snow should be left alive to prove it, and lynched if she can't.
Currently were lunching Elena, which doesn't clear anyone sadly.
Meta killing tonight will clear meta or expose him via kill color, currently I think I'm his target right?
Bladescape can clear one person via the old crossbow. I suggest said person be BatCatHat.

Here's my thing about metas kill tonight. If Snow mech clears town and Meta clears town via color, it should clear me, as I've got no reason to hand powers to 2 towneys like that if I'm a wolf. I'm not suggesting this to save myself, but to make this more efficient(if you don't like it we stick with the original plan).

What I'm saying is keep everything the same but have Meta kill someone other than me. This will still show us his alignment, and snows will be revealed via her ability(still suspicious of what that is), allowing us to clear 5 people instead of 4. Since you'll be clearing me without a death, which you can use on someone else to hard clear them.

Obviously if one of them flips scum or doesn't flip, you're gonna lynch me tomorrow. And then when I inevitably flip town, blade will shank them in the night and we'll win.

[Batcathat]

Yes, perhaps I should've spoken up about Meta earlier and obviously I would have if it looked like they'd get lynched (which I don't think it did). I did say I was townreading Meta for unclear reasons but I get that that doesn't have nearly the same impact.

Can I suggest you at least don't lynch me until next time? I'll check whoever you want for kill powers tonight and give you the result, then you can lynch me and at least learn something from it. Now, it probably won't be catastrophic to lynch me today (unless we're seriously underestimating the number of wolves a mislynch shouldn't hurt that bad) but this way I get to live a little longer, contribute a little more and you actually learn something from my death.

[Metastachydium]

I don't know where you got that "not tonight" part. Unless I get roleblocked I can give out an ability tonight. Even if you kill me I will still give out an ability before I die. And I still have a Bane and a Block.

Now, it can't be used by anyone till the next night, if that's what you mean.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah...admittedly batcathat is looking suspicious. So, let's talk strategy. Whose killing who tonight?
Snow claims to have a self clearing ability. So snow should be left alive to prove it, and lynched if she can't.
Currently were lunching Elena, which doesn't clear anyone sadly.
Meta killing tonight will clear meta or expose him via kill color, currently I think I'm his target right?
Bladescape can clear one person via the old crossbow. I suggest said person be BatCatHat.

Here's my thing about metas kill tonight. If Snow mech clears town and Meta clears town via color, it should clear me, as I've got no reason to hand powers to 2 towneys like that if I'm a wolf. I'm not suggesting this to save myself, but to make this more efficient(if you don't like it we stick with the original plan).

What I'm saying is keep everything the same but have Meta kill someone other than me. This will still show us his alignment, and snows will be revealed via her ability(still suspicious of what that is), allowing us to clear 5 people instead of 4. Since you'll be clearing me without a death, which you can use on someone else to hard clear them.

Obviously if one of them flips scum or doesn't flip, you're gonna lynch me tomorrow. And then when I inevitably flip town, blade will shank them in the night and we'll win.

I'm not very keen on the idea of killing you anyway. I was thinking we could use Taffimai as the third kill. It's a jerk move, sure, but it doesn't hurt town.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes, perhaps I should've spoken up about Meta earlier and obviously I would have if it looked like they'd get lynched (which I don't think it did). I did say I was townreading Meta for unclear reasons but I get that that doesn't have nearly the same impact.

Can I suggest you at least don't lynch me until next time? I'll check whoever you want for kill powers tonight and give you the result, then you can lynch me and at least learn something from it. Now, it probably won't be catastrophic to lynch me today (unless we're seriously underestimating the number of wolves a mislynch shouldn't hurt that bad) but this way I get to live a little longer, contribute a little more and you actually learn something from my death.

Unless you'd have Bladescape not shoot tonight, we need three targets and you sound more like a dog than most. Who else would you suggest should die in your stead?

[moonfly7]

I'm not very keen on the idea of killing you anyway. I was thinking we could use Taffimai as the third kill. It's a jerk move, sure, but it doesn't hurt town.

Absolutely not. That'll waste the Kill ability and give us literally nothing but your clear. Taff is cleared neautral, you need to fire into the existing question zone. But don't shoot Snow, since if she can self clear that'll be a waste. You need to cap either BatCatHat, Me, or Supagoof. Of the three, I'm obviously sure I'm town, but beyond that BCH is the most suspect.

[Metastachydium]

Absolutely not. That'll waste the Kill ability and give us literally nothing but your clear. Taff is cleared neautral, you need to fire into the existing question zone. But don't shoot Snow, since if she can self clear that'll be a waste. You need to cap either BatCatHat, Me, or Supagoof. Of the three, I'm obviously sure I'm town, but beyond that BCH is the most suspect.

That's fair. Supagoof is out of question, though. I'd rather not die to the beast.

[moonfly7]

Here's my honest opinion on how this needs to go down:

We Lynch Elena
Blade Kills BatCatHat.
Meta Kills Supagoof.
Snow Clears herself.
Meta and Snow both Clearing will clear me(if you disagree, thats fine, we go with the original plan, but this one wins the game quicker, assuming you can trust me, and at least it provides a way to clear me, if by association.).

At the end of Night 3 this leaves us with Elena dead, BCH dead, and Goof Dead. With Meta and Snow revealed. If neither is, they get killed immediatly, along with me.

If Snow and meta are innocent, game over we win right here. If Snow can clear herself and we don't get a kill result from Meta, we need to lynch me, Meta, and Supagoof. If we get a kill result from Meta but we don't get a clear from Snow, we need to lynch Me and Snow for a win. Either way, if everything goes right we'll be winning the game by next day. Obviously this plan has more risks than AV's, mostly because if AV is right we could be killing our Baner in the form of Goof(whom I'm honestly not suspecting, I'm just trying to clear as many people as possible.) So if you don't like it, we stick to the initial plan. But we need to decide which we're doing before Night 3 starts.

[Metastachydium]

Here's my honest opinion on how this needs to go down:

We Lynch Elena
Blade Kills BatCatHat.
Meta Kills Supagoof.
Snow Clears herself.
Meta and Snow both Clearing will clear me(if you disagree, thats fine, we go with the original plan, but this one wins the game quicker, assuming you can trust me, and at least it provides a way to clear me, if by association.).

At the end of Night 3 this leaves us with Elena dead, BCH dead, and Goof Dead. With Meta and Snow revealed. If neither is, they get killed immediatly, along with me.

If Snow and meta are innocent, game over we win right here. If Snow can clear herself and we don't get a kill result from Meta, we need to lynch me, Meta, and Supagoof. If we get a kill result from Meta but we don't get a clear from Snow, we need to lynch Me and Snow for a win. Either way, if everything goes right we'll be winning the game by next day. Obviously this plan has more risks than AV's, mostly because if AV is right we could be killing our Baner in the form of Goof(whom I'm honestly not suspecting, I'm just trying to clear as many people as possible.) So if you don't like it, we stick to the initial plan. But we need to decide which we're doing before Night 3 starts.

Again, if I kill the Goof I'll definitely be cleared (unless of course he lies about his powers) because I'll be dead. Supagoof has a beast class power.

[AvatarVecna]

I don't know where you got that "not tonight" part. Unless I get roleblocked I can give out an ability tonight. Even if you kill me I will still give out an ability before I die. And I still have a Bane and a Block.

Now, it can't be used by anyone till the next night, if that's what you mean.

That's essentially what I mean. Any power you give on N3 can only be used on N4, and that means it gives us no info until D5 starts (ie "i roleblocked meta last night and there was no wolf kill". The issue is, the game might be over by then, and so leaving you alive hasn't improved our chances of victory or given us as much information as if we'd kept somebody else alive instead.

Goof, if honest townie, can force scum to have only bad choices for their NK.

Elenna, if honest townie, has a scry.

Meta, if honest townie, has a kill that will check both Meta and the kill target.

Snow, if honest townie, has a power that will reveal her alignment tonight.

Batcathat, if honest townie, can tell us whether their target has a kill power or not (which is not the same thing as whether they are mafia or not, because non-mafia also have kills). This is arguably not all that useful even if BCH is telling the truth. There's no mechanical reason to keep BCH alive over goof, elenna, meta, or snow.

You, if honest townie, can't really do anything tonight that will give us results tomorrow. You did something last night that will maybe help tonight/tomorrow (giving meta a kill), but we don't need you alive for Meta to use the kill. Additionally, with the number of kills we have in play, whatever power you give somebody tonight will only be useful tomorrow night, and by day after tomorrow, game might be over and your power usage N3 hasn't yielded any information. There's no real mechanical reason to keep you alive over goof, elenna, meta, or snow.

Right now, what we need to figure out is whether we're killing BCH or Moon.


Yeah...admittedly batcathat is looking suspicious. So, let's talk strategy. Whose killing who tonight?

While I have a lot of thoughts on this, I think I'd rather save them until we see the results of the lynch. Who knows, maybe we get lucky and our lynchee (BCH or Moon) is actually scum, and that gives us more info.

[moonfly7]

That's fair. Supagoof is out of question, though. I'd rather not die to the beast.

sigh. were back around to the only other option then my friend, your going to have to kill me for any good use of that ability, if you aren't going to target Goof. You can't kill Taff, Can't kill BCH since Blade already has them in their crosshairs(I suppose you could swap, but somone will always end up between me and Goof). All you can kill is me and Goof. And if your scared of his supposed Beast ability, you've got one choice and we're back around to AV's initial plan: Gank me. In which case it'll look like this:

We lynch Elena.

Bladescape Ganks BCH

Meta Ganks Moonfly7

Snow Clears Herself

Meta Clears Via Text.

Only one left alive is Goof.

You know, now that I think about it, there is literally no change no matter who we kill. So go ahead and just shoot me, Meta, it's gonna leave less collateral damage all around.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's my thing about metas kill tonight. If Snow mech clears town and Meta clears town via color, it should clear me, as I've got no reason to hand powers to 2 towneys like that if I'm a wolf. I'm not suggesting this to save myself, but to make this more efficient(if you don't like it we stick with the original plan).

...

...

...I don't understand why wolf!you would hand powers to any townies ever.

...

Show of hands replying to this post: do you think there's three wolves left? If you don't think that's plausible, can you think of any reason why scum!moon would gift a power to a townie?

[moonfly7]

That's essentially what I mean. Any power you give on N3 can only be used on N4, and that means it gives us no info until D5 starts (ie "i roleblocked meta last night and there was no wolf kill". The issue is, the game might be over by then, and so leaving you alive hasn't improved our chances of victory or given us as much information as if we'd kept somebody else alive instead.

Goof, if honest townie, can force scum to have only bad choices for their NK.

Elenna, if honest townie, has a scry.

Meta, if honest townie, has a kill that will check both Meta and the kill target.

Snow, if honest townie, has a power that will reveal her alignment tonight.

Batcathat, if honest townie, can tell us whether their target has a kill power or not (which is not the same thing as whether they are mafia or not, because non-mafia also have kills). This is arguably not all that useful even if BCH is telling the truth. There's no mechanical reason to keep BCH alive over goof, elenna, meta, or snow.

You, if honest townie, can't really do anything tonight that will give us results tomorrow. You did something last night that will maybe help tonight/tomorrow (giving meta a kill), but we don't need you alive for Meta to use the kill. Additionally, with the number of kills we have in play, whatever power you give somebody tonight will only be useful tomorrow night, and by day after tomorrow, game might be over and your power usage N3 hasn't yielded any information. There's no real mechanical reason to keep you alive over goof, elenna, meta, or snow.

Right now, what we need to figure out is whether we're killing BCH or Moon.



While I have a lot of thoughts on this, I think I'd rather save them until we see the results of the lynch. Who knows, maybe we get lucky and our lynchee (BCH or Moon) is actually scum, and that gives us more info.
I agree, sadly, I'm not the best option to keep alive. Obviously because 2 of our firends on that list are lying to appear useful as Town, but it's not like I suspected anything less. You are right, I've promoted the tactical choice the whole game. And I'll stick to it now, KNIFE ME!(emphasis, not a power use)

And I thought we were lynching Elena?

Also, there's no question between me and BCH, just have both of us nightkilled, you've got two of those.

- - - Updated - - -


...

...

...I don't understand why wolf!you would hand powers to any townies ever.

...

Show of hands replying to this post: do you think there's three wolves left? If you don't think that's plausible, can you think of any reason why scum!moon would gift a power to a townie?

I mean, I was just being conservative in my example because I lack experience in these matters. Yeah, if you wanna go that way my suggestion there does have more weight, because if just one flips town, I probably am too. If no one can think of a good reason for Wolf!me to do that.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, I was just being conservative in my example because I lack experience in these matters. Yeah, if you wanna go that way my suggestion there does have more weight, because if just one flips town, I probably am too. If no one can think of a good reason for Wolf!me to do that.

You misunderstand me. I believe this game started with three wolves. One wolf has been caught (Cao). That means there are two wolves left. Unless I am wrong and this game started with four wolves, it's impossible that you, Snow, and Meta are all wolves right now. At least one of the three of you is town.

If it's you, you're town.

If it's Snow, scum!moon would never give town!Snow a scry.

If it's Meta, scum!moon would never give town!meta a kill.

The only scenario where it makes sense for moonfly7 to be scum is if the scumteam is exactly moon, snow, and meta.

- - - Updated - - -

So I ask again: does anybody think this game started with four wolves, half a serial killer, a fulltime vigilante, and several scattered kill powers? Or does it only really make sense if we started with three wolves? Because if it's the latter, moon is clear.

[Snowblaze]

Yup. Like I've been saying since day two, Moonfly is confirmed town from my PoV. My reveal should confirm that to the rest of you, so we shouldn't vig Moonfly.

In that case, I think Supagoof is the alternative target? We can have bladescape kill him because if Meta is telling the truth he's perma-immune to nightkills. And if Meta is lying we'll find out and lynch him, in which case sorry bladescape.

[Elenna]

We're not killing Taffamai. The whole point of this is to kill or clear as many non-mechanically cleared people as fast as possible, in order to get rid of wolves before they can kill the mechanically cleared people. Taff is in the second group, so there's no reason to kill them.

Similarly, we're definitely not leaving BCH alive - killing them clears them if they're town or gets rid of a wolf, while leaving them alive to use their power might possibly clear one person, if we pick the right target, and if we trust BCH, which we don't. (Also, if we were leaving people alive to provide information tomorrow, my role is clearly better for that than BCH's claimed role.)

For my part I still think BCH should be lynched and I should be NK'd, just because I won't be baned while wolves might have access to a bane to protect BCH. I can't prove that, of course, but if you think I'm more likely to be town than BCH, I'd appreciate if you could vote him instead.

@moonfly my main issue with your plan is Meta might die if Meta is town and Goof is really a wolf Beast. Which, granted, is a pretty unlikely scenario.
I'm also not seeing a ton of advantages to your plan. If Meta is town and the game isn't over, we're lynching you next just by process of elimination. Unless you want to convince town that you're townier than AV, I guess.

[AvatarVecna]

1) Elenna, if honest, can determine one alignment via scry.

2) Meta, if honest, can determine two alignments via a kill.

3) bladescape can determine one alignment via a kill.

4) Snow, if honest, can determine one alignment via an unclarified power.

5) Supagoof, if honest, can provide a bane tonight.

6) There are two or three liars.

7) The people we need to check are Elenna, Meta, Snow, Goof, moon, and BCH.



Based on the above facts, we shouldn't lynch Elenna, Meta, Snow, or Goof. Goof provides a bane, and the other three provide info during the night. Thus, moon or BCH should be lynched, and the other should be NK'd.

Elenna provides a scry D4 unless dead. Meta and Snow will self-reveal at the start of D4 via night powers. Thus, Elenna, Meta, and Snow should not be NK'd. This leaves moon or BCH (whichever one wasn't lynched) and Supagoof. Since BCH's power (if honest) is another that provides EoN feedback, whereas moon gives a power regardless of if they survive the night, BCH should be lynched and moon should be NK'd. Moon and goof will still be able to use their powers N3 to help town, but will also get checked via kills.

Lynch: Batcathat
Night Kills (for bladescape/meta): moonfly7 and Supagoof

- - - Updated - - -

Additionally, if enough people are convinced that there's no way we have three wolves left, we can remove moon from the list of kill targets, and...idk, maybe blade just doesn't kill somebody tonight? On the one hand, blade is guaranteed town. On the other hand, meta getting a kill reveals two alignments instead of one. Decisions decisions...

[Elenna]

Oh hey back to the "ninjad 7 times in one post" rate of posts, nice.

[AvatarVecna]

I'd be willing to have Elenna be our second NK instead of nobody, although it feels wrong to deliberately NK a seer claimant when there's not really a counterclaim.

[Batcathat]

Unless you'd have Bladescape not shoot tonight, we need three targets and you sound more like a dog than most. Who else would you suggest should die in your stead?

I tried coming up with an answer for this and I must admit I'm struggling. When I made a quick read list I found myself leaning town (or confirmed town or confirmed neutral) on everyone but two. I do suspect Elenna and Goof to be the last wolves, but I get that skipping a kill because of my reads doesn't make any sense even if I wasn't suspect. So yeah, I guess I'm okay with being one of the targets as long as Elenna and Goof die too.


...Show of hands replying to this post: do you think there's three wolves left? If you don't think that's plausible, can you think of any reason why scum!moon would gift a power to a townie?

No, as mentioned above I can't really find a third suspect.

I could see giving a townie a power as a way to look good (considering Snow was pretty much everyone's strongest townread N1, it makes sense to get in good with her) but doing it twice seems like a stretch.

[Snowblaze]

Okay, fine. Batcathat can die today.

The only way AV's plan can fail is if they're a wolf or Rogan is a wolf. And even then I think we'll still have lynches/kills to spare.

[Elenna]

Additionally, if enough people are convinced that there's no way we have three wolves left, we can remove moon from the list of kill targets, and...idk, maybe blade just doesn't kill somebody tonight? On the one hand, blade is guaranteed town. On the other hand, meta getting a kill reveals two alignments instead of one. Decisions decisions...

I'm not 100% convinced we don't have three wolves left. There's a lot of kills, sure, but there also seem to be several immunities and banes. Certainly we haven't had a ton of deaths each night, despite the number of kill powers.

That being said, one option could be to have blade and meta target the same person? Might help if wolves have a roleblock. In any case it seems better than having one of them do nothing.

If Meta doesn't kill and blade is roleblocked, do we still win? I'm looking at some unlikely possibilities because the wolves not surrendering yet is making me paranoid.

- - - Updated - - -


...

...

...I don't understand why wolf!you would hand powers to any townies ever.

...

Show of hands replying to this post: do you think there's three wolves left? If you don't think that's plausible, can you think of any reason why scum!moon would gift a power to a townie?

Incidentally, I could see Bat/Goof/Meta as the three remaining wolves.

@bat want to share why you're townreading Meta?

@Snow just checking, will you be confirmed town immediately when you use your power, or at EoN?

- - - Updated - - -

To clarify, I still lean town on Goof, but I also think a Bat/Goof/Meta team is not impossible and might explain why wolves haven't surrendered, since Goof is being town-read.

[Batcathat]

@bat want to share why you're townreading Meta?

Like I said, I checked them for a kill power N1 and they didn't have one. I guess it's possible that not all wolves have their own, but since Cao did that doesn't seem very likely.

[Elenna]

Like I said, I checked them for a kill power N1 and they didn't have one. I guess it's possible that not all wolves have their own, but since Cao did that doesn't seem very likely.

Right, yeah, forgot about that.

[AvatarVecna]

For moon to be scum, meta and snow must be scum. For meta to be scum, BCH must be scum. Even those of you who think "there's maybe three scum left?", surely you don't think four remaining mafia is possible?

[Rogan]

Currently were lunching Elena, which doesn't clear anyone sadly.
Meta killing tonight will clear meta or expose him via kill color, currently I think I'm his target right?
Bladescape can clear one person via the old crossbow. I suggest said person be BatCatHat.


If I recall it correctly (but I am not sure about this, so please speak up if I don't) Elenna mentioned the RAC quote from Cao/gac a few times, while Snow mostly ignored it. This quote would fit Elenna or Snow. If Elenna is scum, good. If Elenna is not scum, Snow is more suspicious than before, so we could consider killing her in the night.
Also, if Elenna is town, I am 100% cleared instead of 99% clear. And Goof is more likely to be town or a very bold scum or slightly less bold, but scum and lying about his ability.

So, lynching Elenna will make one person more suspicious, remove the last bit of doubt on me and make another player less suspicious.
Or she is a wolf. That's win/win.
It's also hard to trust her scry, even if we get an result, unless we get additional Intel on that matter.



Yes, perhaps I should've spoken up about Meta earlier and obviously I would have if it looked like they'd get lynched (which I don't think it did). I did say I was townreading Meta for unclear reasons but I get that that doesn't have nearly the same impact.

I understand your motivation, but you should know I was criticized for using the same logic before. And my power had a greater scope than yours (and it turned out to be false...), so I had more reason to avoid drawing scums attention.
So, I can understand you a bit, but I can't town read you for this.
On the other hand, your power can be useful like a scry right now, since everyone who has a kill power should have mentioned it by now. So if you find a gun where there should be none, you are either lying or they were.

But your position is weak on its own. You had 2.5 days and 2 nights to put your power and your brain to work, but there was not much participation from your side. I think, in LL you were more active. Your reads might have been flip floppy there, but you gave pros and cons. Right now, I don't see much of it.
I admit LL was slower and had less people with less posts. And I admit your confidence could be shaken so you avoid reads now. You are not forced to be scum, but you are not looking very townie either.

Please give me a read list on all active players. Nothing too detailed, but try to give a lean for everyone, with at least one argument. New arguments are welcome, but since the discussion is going on for some time, it's hard to not repeat things.


Again, if I kill the Goof I'll definitely be cleared (unless of course he lies about his powers) because I'll be dead. Supagoof has a beast class power.

I think the power was protect someone. If they are attacked, the attacker and the protector (good goof) will die. It won't kill you unless goof is protecting himself.



Show of hands replying to this post: do you think there's three wolves left? If you don't think that's plausible, can you think of any reason why scum!moon would gift a power to a townie?

It could be forced by the mech. (Not being allowed to share with the team). This way, it can still be used to help town hunt the killer and gain town cred, but it could always have a risk. Like the permanent protection, which could accidently make scum immune.
It could also have a hidden drawback, but I am not sure if this would be allowed? Unavenger if someone had a power to gift power usages to other players, would the "not lying about the effect of your abilities" rule apply to the new temporary power?

There is also another thing to consider. Snow had her POE out in public and it was very wrong. Giving her a scry would be much less dangerous than it seems, but it would give town cred.

I think, that's everything I can come up with.



In that case, I think Supagoof is the alternative target? We can have bladescape kill him because if Meta is telling the truth he's perma-immune to nightkills. And if Meta is lying we'll find out and lynch him, in which case sorry bladescape.

It would be interesting to see what goof thinks about this.

[moonfly7]

1) Elenna, if honest, can determine one alignment via scry.

2) Meta, if honest, can determine two alignments via a kill.

3) bladescape can determine one alignment via a kill.

4) Snow, if honest, can determine one alignment via an unclarified power.

5) Supagoof, if honest, can provide a bane tonight.

6) There are two or three liars.

7) The people we need to check are Elenna, Meta, Snow, Goof, moon, and BCH.



Based on the above facts, we shouldn't lynch Elenna, Meta, Snow, or Goof. Goof provides a bane, and the other three provide info during the night. Thus, moon or BCH should be lynched, and the other should be NK'd.

Elenna provides a scry D4 unless dead. Meta and Snow will self-reveal at the start of D4 via night powers. Thus, Elenna, Meta, and Snow should not be NK'd. This leaves moon or BCH (whichever one wasn't lynched) and Supagoof. Since BCH's power (if honest) is another that provides EoN feedback, whereas moon gives a power regardless of if they survive the night, BCH should be lynched and moon should be NK'd. Moon and goof will still be able to use their powers N3 to help town, but will also get checked via kills.

Lynch: Batcathat
Night Kills (for bladescape/meta): moonfly7 and Supagoof

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Additionally, if enough people are convinced that there's no way we have three wolves left, we can remove moon from the list of kill targets, and...idk, maybe blade just doesn't kill somebody tonight? On the one hand, blade is guaranteed town. On the other hand, meta getting a kill reveals two alignments instead of one. Decisions decisions...
Here's my problem with this: I am innocent, so I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that one of our Clear abilities is lying. It's eerliy convenient that everyone has a clear now that it would keep them alive to have one. So, if you can Town clear me without my death, then you need to keep me alive and shoot into the horde, because you can't trust a single one of those Scry's, but you will be able to check off names if you have an extra kill AND can mech clear me without my death.

For moon to be scum, meta and snow must be scum. For meta to be scum, BCH must be scum. Even those of you who think "there's maybe three scum left?", surely you don't think four remaining mafia is possible?
This logic, is 1, sound and 2, provides an interesting Case so I'll ask this right now:

Do you think that we started this game with 5 Wolves?

If your answer is no, you do not, then you have to clear me. Because as AV said, the only way I'm scum is if both of my gifted are Scum, which makes a 4th person still alive scum, making 5 total. But if you believe whole heartedly their aren't 5 scum, then I can't be, because I would've given at least 1 towny an ability that could ruin a Mafia game.

If I recall it correctly (but I am not sure about this, so please speak up if I don't) Elenna mentioned the RAC quote from Cao/gac a few times, while Snow mostly ignored it. This quote would fit Elenna or Snow. If Elenna is scum, good. If Elenna is not scum, Snow is more suspicious than before, so we could consider killing her in the night.
Also, if Elenna is town, I am 100% cleared instead of 99% clear. And Goof is more likely to be town or a very bold scum or slightly less bold, but scum and lying about his ability.

So, lynching Elenna will make one person more suspicious, remove the last bit of doubt on me and make another player less suspicious.
Or she is a wolf. That's win/win.
It's also hard to trust her scry, even if we get an result, unless we get additional Intel on that matter.



I understand your motivation, but you should know I was criticized for using the same logic before. And my power had a greater scope than yours (and it turned out to be false...), so I had more reason to avoid drawing scums attention.
So, I can understand you a bit, but I can't town read you for this.
On the other hand, your power can be useful like a scry right now, since everyone who has a kill power should have mentioned it by now. So if you find a gun where there should be none, you are either lying or they were.

But your position is weak on its own. You had 2.5 days and 2 nights to put your power and your brain to work, but there was not much participation from your side. I think, in LL you were more active. Your reads might have been flip floppy there, but you gave pros and cons. Right now, I don't see much of it.
I admit LL was slower and had less people with less posts. And I admit your confidence could be shaken so you avoid reads now. You are not forced to be scum, but you are not looking very townie either.

Please give me a read list on all active players. Nothing too detailed, but try to give a lean for everyone, with at least one argument. New arguments are welcome, but since the discussion is going on for some time, it's hard to not repeat things.



I think the power was protect someone. If they are attacked, the attacker and the protector (good goof) will die. It won't kill you unless goof is protecting himself.



It could be forced by the mech. (Not being allowed to share with the team). This way, it can still be used to help town hunt the killer and gain town cred, but it could always have a risk. Like the permanent protection, which could accidently make scum immune.
It could also have a hidden drawback, but I am not sure if this would be allowed? Unavenger if someone had a power to gift power usages to other players, would the "not lying about the effect of your abilities" rule apply to the new temporary power?

There is also another thing to consider. Snow had her POE out in public and it was very wrong. Giving her a scry would be much less dangerous than it seems, but it would give town cred.

I think, that's everything I can come up with.



It would be interesting to see what goof thinks about this.
If I was Mafia and forced to hand out powers to town, i would've gievn my telegram day one, and then my bane and Block, never the two abilities that can check someone and perhaps out one of my supposed wolf teammates. Instead I gave us the 2 most useful wolf finding tools first.

And, to show that I'm committed to reducing the number of incorrect kills we make to raise our chances of winning, and not trying to save my own skin, I am willing to, right now, post my complete role QT unredacted. Even if it will almost certainly get me killed tonight, it saves us wasting one of our nightkills on an innocent, and streamlines the plan. If seeing everything will turn even a single head to the more efficient plan, I'm willing to post my whole QT unredacted and unedited.

[Metastachydium]

I think the power was protect someone. If they are attacked, the attacker and the protector (good goof) will die. It won't kill you unless goof is protecting himself.


Which is a distinct possibility. I'd feel more comfortable with Bladescape killing the Goof. Snow is right. He is in no danger of dying whatsoever.

[moonfly7]

Which is a distinct possibility. I'd feel more comfortable with Bladescape killing the Goof. Snow is right. He is in no danger of dying whatsoever.

Kind of convenient that you forgot that when it's your own power which you claimed to have given him meta, that is ridiculously suspicious.

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In fact, fearing Goofs beast at all is weird if you truly belived that he was perma immune like you said he was. If your powers are real, you would have led with the "There's no way to night Kill goof, I immuned him" argument first. But you didn't, even though that argument would have been much better than the beast one.

[Metastachydium]

Kind of convenient that you forgot that when it's your own power which you claimed to have given him meta, that is ridiculously suspicious.

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In fact, fearing Goofs beast at all is weird if you truly belived that he was perma immune like you said he was. If your powers are real, you would have led with the "There's no way to night Kill goof, I immuned him" argument first. But you didn't, even though that argument would have been much better than the beast one.

What? By he I was referring to Bladescape, not the Goof. And I've already hinted at Bladescape being under my protection last night (when I said it is impossible for him to die).

[Batcathat]

Please give me a read list on all active players. Nothing too detailed, but try to give a lean for everyone, with at least one argument. New arguments are welcome, but since the discussion is going on for some time, it's hard to not repeat things.

Sure, here you go. I'm not sure I quite live up to the requests for arguments but I really need to start cooking dinner. I'll try to add to it if I have time (but don't expect any great leaps of deduction).

AvatarVecna: Strong town lean. I wouldn't completely rule out AV playing us all in some way I don't grasp (that's pretty much what happened last game) but it really doesn't seem likely.
Snowblaze: Town lean. Will be either confirmed town or pretty much confirmed wolf (if her claim doesn't deliver) by D4.
Batcathat: Too handsome, loveable and charming to kill. Right?
SupaGoof: Leaning wolf. Mostly gut feeling (more details in my earlier ISO) and a lack of other options.
Taffimai: Neutral.
Moonfly7: Town lean. I could see a wolf giving away power to town in order to look good, but doing it twice seems very unlikely.
BladeScape: Town.
Elenna: Leaning wolf. Also mostly gut feeling and a lack of options, but if that cruise quote wasn't a trick, she seems the most likely source.
Metastachydium: Town (or at least previously without kill power, which I guess rules out wolf?)
Rogan: Strong town lean, for similar reasons to AV.

[moonfly7]

What? By he I was referring to Bladescape, not the Goof. And I've already hinted at Bladescape being under my protection last night (when I said it is impossible for him to die).

Oh, well, darn my butterfingers. My mistake then Meta, the tinfoil hat might be on a tad to tight. I still think my kill gift to you was smart but honestly at this point I'm questioning every detail the closer we get to end game.

[Metastachydium]

Oh, well, darn my butterfingers. My mistake then Meta, the tinfoil hat might be on a tad to tight. I still think my kill gift to you was smart but honestly at this point I'm questioning every detail the closer we get to end game.

No problem. Everyone's seeing dogs much everywhere right now.

[moonfly7]

So I really want answer before end of day though, does everyone need me to post my entire QT uncensored to prove that I'm a waste of a night kill? Once again, I'm only doing this to help us have a better chance of catching wolves, I fully expect to be killed for a full role reveal tonight. But thats going to clear one more person and that is all that matters. Taking myself out of the equation opens up options for Lynching BatCatHat today, and then Ganking Elena and Goof tonight. Then Lynching Snowblaze and/or meta if they don't confirm town. Although, if we kill BCH and he's town, that basically confirms Meta as Town because of Meta lacking a kill ability until i gave him one.

[Rogan]

1) Elenna, if honest, can determine one alignment via scry.

2) Meta, if honest, can determine two alignments via a kill.

3) bladescape can determine one alignment via a kill.

4) Snow, if honest, can determine one alignment via an unclarified power.

5) Supagoof, if honest, can provide a bane tonight.

6) There are two or three liars.

7) The people we need to check are Elenna, Meta, Snow, Goof, moon, and BCH.



Based on the above facts, we shouldn't lynch Elenna, Meta, Snow, or Goof. Goof provides a bane, and the other three provide info during the night. Thus, moon or BCH should be lynched, and the other should be NK'd.

Elenna provides a scry D4 unless dead. Meta and Snow will self-reveal at the start of D4 via night powers. Thus, Elenna, Meta, and Snow should not be NK'd. This leaves moon or BCH (whichever one wasn't lynched) and Supagoof. Since BCH's power (if honest) is another that provides EoN feedback, whereas moon gives a power regardless of if they survive the night, BCH should be lynched and moon should be NK'd. Moon and goof will still be able to use their powers N3 to help town, but will also get checked via kills.

Lynch: Batcathat
Night Kills (for bladescape/meta): moonfly7 and Supagoof

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Additionally, if enough people are convinced that there's no way we have three wolves left, we can remove moon from the list of kill targets, and...idk, maybe blade just doesn't kill somebody tonight? On the one hand, blade is guaranteed town. On the other hand, meta getting a kill reveals two alignments instead of one. Decisions decisions...

Elenna seems to be too powerful to be real. But if she is, she also has a watcher power (see who targeted her target) and can give Intel even if her target dies. So high risk, high reward? She is also tied to me and goof, as well as Snow. Killing her now to go into the night with more info seems helpful, even if she isn't scum.

Meta is a mixed bag. If scum, he can probably kill two people, including blades, our vig.
Still, unless he admit to being scum, his power is to useful to lose?

Snow can provide her own alignment if she is telling the truth. She might also die for doing so, if scum has a power that works on Concept names. So relying on this is dangerous?

Goof is too useful to lynch. His power can force scum to make suboptimal kill choices. It might even kill scum.

So, from the list of not lynch targets, I disagree a bit about Elenna. But I'm not married to the idea of killing her either. The problem with her scry is, we can't know if we can trust her until she dies. Even if she gives us a correct target, it could be another bus. Delays in killing her for being useful could be very dangerous if she is scum.


I'd be willing to have Elenna be our second NK instead of nobody, although it feels wrong to deliberately NK a seer claimant when there's not really a counterclaim.

In this setup, there can't really be counter claims. We know there is some overlap between powers, but some differences as well.


I'm not 100% convinced we don't have three wolves left. There's a lot of kills, sure, but there also seem to be several immunities and banes. Certainly we haven't had a ton of deaths each night, despite the number of kill powers.

That being said, one option could be to have blade and meta target the same person? Might help if wolves have a roleblock. In any case it seems better than having one of them do nothing.

If Meta doesn't kill and blade is roleblocked, do we still win? I'm looking at some unlikely possibilities because the wolves not surrendering yet is making me paranoid.

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Incidentally, I could see Bat/Goof/Meta as the three remaining wolves.

@bat want to share why you're townreading Meta?

@Snow just checking, will you be confirmed town immediately when you use your power, or at EoN?

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To clarify, I still lean town on Goof, but I also think a Bat/Goof/Meta team is not impossible and might explain why wolves haven't surrendered, since Goof is being town-read.

Most kill powers we know about had some limit. Fext could not kill n1. Xihirli could not kill n1. AV can only kill under some special circumstances. Book needed to turn into Mr Hyde for his kill to work. Taff was limited in her options as well. So not seeing many kills doesn't need to continue.

Now, looking for only 3 wolves when there were 4 is dangerous. And Book was only half a killer. Starting with 4.5 hostile in an 16 player game doesn't seem to be impossible.

[Supagoof]

Just catching up and cherry picking the posts along the way that I found....curious, from my point of view.



And if that's the case then the remaining wolf (or wolves) must be in Meta/AV/Rogan/Supagoof of which I have by far the weakest reasons to townread Supagoof.Not sure how this list had Meta added to it, as the night before is was Rogan/AV/Gac/Book/Goof - subtle shade, to hide in the shadows? I mean, Snow keeps getting cleared cause of Bus, but maybe that's the plan from the start? I don't know.


I'm still leaning towards Elenna and Goof as the wolves. My gut is leaning towards the latter and my brain towards the former. Not sure which body part I should trust with my vote.Casting shade, for no factual reasons. Again, curious as to why.


No, if I target Goof tonight I'll learn if he has a kill power or not, since it's an odd night.I'm curious if my beast power counts as a kill power. It's not a directed power to kill, it's a "If you touch this protected person, you will die!" type of thing.


Again, if I kill the Goof I'll definitely be cleared (unless of course he lies about his powers) because I'll be dead. Supagoof has a beast class power.Yes. I have the one power. I can only target people with protection. Attacking said people activates my beast power. If I protect myself, and you kill me, you'll die too. That's -2 town, which is a bad plan IMO.

Scum would love to see me lynched at this point. The lynch is the only safe way they could remove me from the game (unless I be role-blocked, is possible). Because this seems to be such a (IMHO) simple logic. As such, I'm sceptical of any plan involving a lynching or killing of me by town. Which sounds like a scum logic, but it's definitely a town!Goof logic as I likely have them supa worried about how to get rid of me.

BatCatHat to get my point in, and I just feel his words want to remove me from the game with a lynch, and because of the reason above, that's the why for me.

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And as I was writing all that up, Rogan posted....again. Rogan, is part of your role to have like.....the maximum number of posts?

But yes, I keep the wolves guessing and making bad choices, unless they had a way to know who I was targeting.....hmmm.

Speaking of which. Thank you Elenna for the confirmation on that I did target Rogan last night. I did, can confirm this two ways.

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And by two ways I mean
1. Elenna's post stating she saw me target Rogan
2. My last post, stating I did in fact, target Rogan.

But that doesn't clear Elenna.

My suspicions are growing for Meta and Moon - their back forth is definitely making me wonder which of them might be scum.

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See this (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Gunsmith) but also my own idea. .Just going back to double check conversations....and I find this??? I had no idea this existed!!! *goes to read through it*