Prestidigitation. Take it early or never.

[Foolwise]

If you don't choose Prestidigitation when you first get access to it, would you ever have reason to take it later? You pick your last cantrip at level 10 when full casters have access to 5th level spells... and you are going to learn Prestidigitation, a cantrip that has this description:

This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice.

lol
With 5th level spells at your disposal, party parlor tricks are a bit blasé. You haven't reached god-tier yet, but you aren't a two-bit caster either. Except for Artificer, every class that gets Prestidigitation also has access to Minor Illusion which better does two of Presti's six effects. Three... if you don't mind the object not actually getting cleaned or soiled.

But I guess it would be fun to roleplay your master of the arcane wonders getting schooled by local apprentice when they hit 10th level.

[Atranen]

But I guess it would be fun to roleplay your master of the arcane wonders getting schooled by local apprentice when they hit 10th level.

Oddly, this will always be the case, given you can't know all cantrips simultaneously!

[Greywander]

It might not be as uncommon as you might think.

Generally, my view is that utility cantrips are nicer to have than combat cantrips. That said, a damage cantrip is still a good idea to pick up, but you don't really need more than one. Maybe two, if you're worried about damage type or saving throw type (or want one attack and one save). Usually, you would take your damage cantrip right away, but you could actually get by using a light crossbow and dagger until 5th level. Either way you do it, your 10th level pick will be either your second damage cantrip (if you're getting two) or another utility cantrip.

Which utility cantrip you choose to delay until 10th level will vary depending on how much you value each cantrip, or what your character concept is. For some characters, Prestidigitation might be integral to their identity, so you want to pick it up immediately. For others, you might still want it, but it's less integral, so you get cantrips for your concept first and wait until later to pick up Prestidigitation.

Basically, you have to look at all the cantrip options and rank each one according to how much you want it. How powerful a cantrip is will play a role in how you rank it, but how well it fits your concept might have enough influence to shift a cantrip up or down multiple ranks. Even after you're done ranking cantrips, you will probably decide that you need at least one damage cantrip early, so you'll move it up in rank so that you can get it as one of your first cantrips. When that's all done, most cantrips on your list will be ranked too low that you won't get enough to pick them up. After eliminating those, the cantrip left at the bottom of your list is what you're getting at 10th level.

[dafrca]

Just a thought: In some cases it is the quality of life uses I find the most attractive for casters. By this I mean the specific items called out such as....

• You instantaneously light or snuff out a Candle, a torch, or a small campfire.

• You instantaneously clean or soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot.

• You chill, warm, or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour.

I have one caster who prides himself on always being clean. The party wades through a swamp, as soon as they are out, he casts Prestidigitation a time or two and he is clean and pressed looking nice and fresh.

I could see the fact it is a "non-slot cast as many times as you wish" spell he could warm his bed in the winter and clean his whole house or light up the torches in his great hall etcetera.

Quality of life. :smallsmile:

[Toadkiller]

Or…maybe you get it later. Cause you want to. Maybe there isn’t something you want more.

We are getting a lot of these posts explaining the one true way to play the game. Seems like more than before. There a many ways to play it - and they all work if the folks doing it are having fun.

[OldTrees1]

Least Wish is a fine Cantrip to pick up. Even at 19th level.

In 5E Least Wish is divided into Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft. They are fine choices at any level.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

My Bard ended up taking it mid-way through a campaign because the group ended up doing a lot more clandestine-but-messy violence in the city than originally expected. Having a method of instantly cleaning up evidence and bloody clothes was easily worth the cantrip slot, but I wouldn't have known that at the start of the game.

[Witty Username]

I would say you should never take more than two attack cantrips, preferably two different damage types and one attack roll, one saving throw. I like ray of frost and toll of the dead personally, firebolt and frostbite for an evoker. Past that load up on mage hands, minor illusions, prestidigitation and whatever else you like.

[kazaryu]

If you don't choose Prestidigitation when you first get access to it, would you ever have reason to take it later? You pick your last cantrip at level 10 when full casters have access to 5th level spells... and you are going to learn Prestidigitation, a cantrip that has this description:


lol
With 5th level spells at your disposal, party parlor tricks are a bit blasé. You haven't reached god-tier yet, but you aren't a two-bit caster either. Except for Artificer, every class that gets Prestidigitation also has access to Minor Illusion which better does two of Presti's six effects. Three... if you don't mind the object not actually getting cleaned or soiled.

But I guess it would be fun to roleplay your master of the arcane wonders getting schooled by local apprentice when they hit 10th level.

i mean, there really is no argument from an optimizers perspective to take prestidigitation. it just...doesn't actually do anything. that being said, i always take it, its fun.

[Eldariel]

It's not bad from optimization perspective...if you get creative. Being able to create objects, even for just 6 seconds, can be tremendously useful: that's enough time to open up a door with a key for instance. Being able to warm and cool down liquids enables breaking the conservation of energy and create all sorts of contraptions - sometimes you want ice and chilling water is a good way to go towards that (honestly, cool down water and put some water in a towel around the bottle the water is in to induce vaporization and the transfer of energy enables you create ice if you go deep enough). Sometimes you want boiling water to pour on someone and so on.

[MoiMagnus]

Prestidigitation is a must-have for any spellcaster wishing for a more comfortable life as they get richer.
From easily cleaning their cloths to chill/warm/flavour up their food and drinks, this is absolutely perfect for tea time!

Depending on your GM interpretation of "flavour up", this might also include any spice of your liking. No more those absolute nightmarish situations where you're in the middle of the wild (under your Leomund's Tiny Hut, since you're not a barbarian) and you're out of curry for your meals!

[Unoriginal]

It's not bad from optimization perspective...if you get creative. Being able to create objects, even for just 6 seconds, can be tremendously useful: that's enough time to open up a door with a key for instance. Being able to warm and cool down liquids enables breaking the conservation of energy and create all sorts of contraptions - sometimes you want ice and chilling water is a good way to go towards that (honestly, cool down water and put some water in a towel around the bottle the water is in to induce vaporization and the transfer of energy enables you create ice if you go deep enough). Sometimes you want boiling water to pour on someone and so on.

Spells do what the description says they do, nothing more, nothing less.

There is nothing optimization-related or creative in having a DM who looks at a cantrip that creates too-fragile-to-use trinkets and can somewhat adjust the temperature of an object in a manner completely harmless for both the object and everything else and goes "well of course you can create fully-functioning keys and use real-world thermodynamic principles to do things far beyond the scope of the spell (but only in the specific instances that advantages you, because when they might disadvantage you then you can just use game logic instead).

It's just having a wizard supremacist DM. Or a clueless one.

Only way you can create a functional "key" with Prestidigitation is if it's some kind of magic door that opens if you show it a specific trinket for 6 seconds, or a guardian which does the same. At best if you want to stretch things you could arguably recreate a key you've observed and memorized enough, make an imprint of it in wax/soap/clay/etc, then use this imprint to make a copy.

[Eldariel]

Spells do what the description says they do, nothing more, nothing less.

There is nothing optimization-related or creative in having a DM who looks at a cantrip that creates too-fragile-to-use trinkets..

The spell does what it says. No less. It says nothing about the item being fragile. It just disappears in 6 seconds. Rest is your own ruling, which is of course irrelevant for anyone else.

[kazaryu]

It's not bad from optimization perspective...if you get creative. Being able to create objects, even for just 6 seconds, can be tremendously useful: that's enough time to open up a door with a key for instance. Being able to warm and cool down liquids enables breaking the conservation of energy and create all sorts of contraptions - sometimes you want ice and chilling water is a good way to go towards that (honestly, cool down water and put some water in a towel around the bottle the water is in to induce vaporization and the transfer of energy enables you create ice if you go deep enough). Sometimes you want boiling water to pour on someone and so on.

sure...so long as you've seen the key...and studied it enough to memorize every facet of it.

and it doesn't say 'you can constantly add or remove heat'. it specifically uses the terms 'warm' and 'chill' which are used heavily in...well, food. the obvious implication is that you're able to make your food/drinks the optimal temperature for eating/drinking. and really, i mean, sure, if your dm lets you heat some water up to the point of being able to scald someone...why not just...cast an attack spell? by all rights it should do more damage (even standard fire is like...a d4 per round).

from a mechanical standpoint prestidigitation is near useless. its *great* for flavoring of actions, which is why i always take it. in fact, of the 3 'swiss army knife' cantrips, druid craft is the only one with any actual use. even if they are niche. being able to know the weather has the potential for usefulness in exploration campaigns (and the potential for planning certain escapades. like trying to launch an attack during a storm so call lightning does more damage. or so you have better cover for sneaking. things like that). and being able to make a flower blossom/seed pod.... that whole thing, can be useful for gathering extra ingredients. you can't make infinite ones, since you can only accelerate buds that already exist, but it can help with getting just that little bit extra.

[Unoriginal]

The spell does what it says. No less. It says nothing about the item being fragile.

I admit I was wrong on that point, re-checking the spell. I apologize.


Rest is your own ruling, which is of course irrelevant for anyone else.

So are you arguing that your "being able to warm and cool down liquids enables breaking the conservation of energy and create all sorts of contraptions" isn't your own irrelevant-for-anyone-else ruling?

[Eldariel]

So are you arguing that your "being able to warm and cool down liquids enables breaking the conservation of energy and create all sorts of contraptions" isn't your own irrelevant-for-anyone-else ruling?

The spell says it can chill or warm something. Afterwards you have a warm or chill something that didn't use to be warm or chill before. Therefore you have more warmth or less warmth than before. Obviously that's all the spell itself does: what you can do with that is then down to completely mundane application of warmth or the lack thereof but being able to produce it at no cost except 6 seconds is pretty nifty.

[Thunderous Mojo]

it specifically uses the terms 'warm' and 'chill' which are used heavily in...well, food. the obvious implication is that you're able to make your food/drinks the optimal temperature for eating/drinking. and really, i mean, sure, if your dm lets you heat some water up to the point of being able to scald someone...why not just...cast an attack spell? by all rights it should do more damage (even standard fire is like...a d4 per round).

from a mechanical standpoint prestidigitation is near useless. .

Hmm..."Your Obvious Implication" is too limited in scope, I'm afraid.

One can warm blankets for an hour with each use of this spell, or chill robes. Warm Blankets can help one survive in cold temperatures, same as a cool robe could during excessive heat.

There is nothing in the Prestidigitation spell description that limits flavoring to foodstuffs. One could add flavor to a Longsword.

"Taste my Steel!!!....no really...my sword tastes like peppermint".🃏

[Krobar]

My current character is a fighter, who specifically took Magic Initiate at 8th level so he could get Prestidigitation. He likes his beer cold in a frosty mug.

[JellyPooga]

My current character is a fighter, who specifically took Magic Initiate at 8th level so he could get Prestidigitation. He likes his beer cold in a frosty mug.

Best use of a Feat I've ever seen or heard of. Period.

[loki_ragnarock]

Standing in the charred and blasted remains of the hobgoblin army, Mike the Mystical surveys the destruction he wrought just moments before. Commanding fire at his whim ensured the thousand strong force of fighting, sentient beings were little more than ash by the time he was done. Gathering some kindling, he hurled a firebolt and put a pot on to cook. Trail rations aren't the best, but he could make a thin, tasteless gruel out of what he had available. As an adventuring wizard he'd been on the road for weeks, and at the taste of this food that would sustain him, that would let him survive but not thrive, he hurled the bowl and dropped to his knees, wailing and reaching his hands to an iron sky. His shoulders slumped. His head bowed. Tears fell from his eye.
"I just wish there was some way. Any way. For magic to make that taste good."
- excerpt from Mike the Miserable, A Cautionary Tale

[Unoriginal]

The spell says it can chill or warm something. Afterwards you have a warm or chill something that didn't use to be warm or chill before. Therefore you have more warmth or less warmth than before. Obviously that's all the spell itself does: what you can do with that is then down to completely mundane application of warmth or the lack thereof but being able to produce it at no cost except 6 seconds is pretty nifty.

And interpreting "chill or warm" as "can be used to produce ice via thermodynamics" or "can be used to make boiling water" are your rulings. Which is, to use your words, of course irrelevant for anyone else.

"Prestidigitation breaks the laws of thermodynamics, therefore I can use completely mundane applications of the laws of thermodynamics to do other things with that phenomenon" is your personal interpretation of the situation, aka your ruling. One could just as validly argue "Prestidigitation breaks the laws of thermodynamics, therefore anything relying on the laws of thermodynamics to do other things with that phenomenon wouldn't work."

As for the boiling part, if the DM says that you can make nonliving material reach boiling temperature via Prestidigiation, then the question becomes "can I use Prestitigitation to make the helmet reach that temperature while it's on the bad guy's head?" and other variations, and if the DM agrees to that it makes one wonder why anyone would bother with Heat Metal or the like.

[Foolwise]

My Bard ended up taking it mid-way through a campaign because the group ended up doing a lot more clandestine-but-messy violence in the city than originally expected. Having a method of instantly cleaning up evidence and bloody clothes was easily worth the cantrip slot, but I wouldn't have known that at the start of the game.

This is currently the best response toward why someone would choose Prestidigitation late.

[Eldariel]

And interpreting "chill or warm" as "can be used to produce ice via thermodynamics" or "can be used to make boiling water" are your rulings. Which is, to use your words, of course irrelevant for anyone else.

"Prestidigitation breaks the laws of thermodynamics, therefore I can use completely mundane applications of the laws of thermodynamics to do other things with that phenomenon" is your personal interpretation of the situation, aka your ruling. One could just as validly argue "Prestidigitation breaks the laws of thermodynamics, therefore anything relying on the laws of thermodynamics to do other things with that phenomenon wouldn't work."

As for the boiling part, if the DM says that you can make nonliving material reach boiling temperature via Prestidigiation, then the question becomes "can I use Prestitigitation to make the helmet reach that temperature while it's on the bad guy's head?" and other variations, and if the DM agrees to that it makes one wonder why anyone would bother with Heat Metal or the like.

Obviously it should not be able to e.g. boil someone's head with one use of the spell or any such. There are two reasonable rulings: either it can warm things iteratively to ever higher temperatures with modest changes between them, or it can make them "chill" or "warm" for specific definitions of how cold "chill" and how hot "warm" is. But regardless of how it works, since it permanently changes the temperature of a body of liquid (or a solid), you can e.g. use it on multiple targets and then simply use an exothermic reaction (gas changing into a liquid, liquid changing into a solid or gas changing into a solid) to warm the desired object up further. Which would be very hard to do without such a convenient source of temperature manipulation at hands.

[Segev]

An arcane trickster with prestidigitation is never without lockpicks. Sure, they only last six seconds, but if you've ever seen the Lockpicking Lawyer, it can really be that quick. (And I think technically picking locks is the "Use An Object" action, so can be done in one round.) And that's if you don't have Keen Mind (another feat often maligned as "not very good") to guarantee you do, in fact, remember exactly how that key you looked at for a moment or two last week looked.

Given that I tend to say Keen Mind is a spectacular spell for an illusionist, and an illusionist is likely, as a wizard, to have prestidigitation, this seems like something an illusionist I might build would definitely have the components to pull off!

[JNAProductions]

Obviously it should not be able to e.g. boil someone's head with one use of the spell or any such. There are two reasonable rulings: either it can warm things iteratively to ever higher temperatures with modest changes between them, or it can make them "chill" or "warm" for specific definitions of how cold "chill" and how hot "warm" is. But regardless of how it works, since it permanently changes the temperature of a body of liquid (or a solid), you can e.g. use it on multiple targets and then simply use an exothermic reaction (gas changing into a liquid, liquid changing into a solid or gas changing into a solid) to warm the desired object up further. Which would be very hard to do without such a convenient source of temperature manipulation at hands.

What's an exothermic reaction? You're just adding some heat-you know, from the plane of fire. Chilling it just adds some cold, from the plane of water.

To put another way, science need not apply when magic is in the room.

And to put a third way, as a DM, if you try using science to achieve something silly without telling me what you're trying to achieve, you're likely to get a solid no. I'd much rather you just say "Can I use Prestidigitation to boil water?" than try shenanigans.

[Eldariel]

What's an exothermic reaction? You're just adding some heat-you know, from the plane of fire. Chilling it just adds some cold, from the plane of water.

To put another way, science need not apply when magic is in the room.

And to put a third way, as a DM, if you try using science to achieve something silly without telling me what you're trying to achieve, you're likely to get a solid no. I'd much rather you just say "Can I use Prestidigitation to boil water?" than try shenanigans.

Would this apply to my nonmagic Rogue or Fighter with access to a bunch of warm pots of water without access to fire to try and create boiling water too?

Exothermic reaction refers to substance changing state of matter. So for example when water freezes, that releases temperature. OTOH when ice melts, that "consumes" temperature so to speak. These are behind many of the "why windshields are always frozen in the morning in winter" and why water at about -1 degree rarely actually freezes over and so on. Provided the world works the same WRT these matters, I'd expect the reactions to work the same too and I'd expect to be able to utilise them whether I'm a Fighter or a Wizard trying to achieve mundane but wondrous utility.

[OldTrees1]

Would this apply to my nonmagic Rogue or Fighter with access to a bunch of warm pots of water without access to fire to try and create boiling water too?

I think I must be missing something here. If I had access to a tropical ocean (plenty of warm water) and a dozen pots, I don't think I could bring a pot of water to boiling (without use external heat source like the sun). Even if I really really wanted some pasta, I don't have a temperature gradient that crosses the boiling point of water.

On the other hand if I also had a ladle and an infinite supply of matches, then I could add heat to a ladle full of water at a time. This gives me a temperature gradient that crosses the boiling point of water.

However even with the infinite supply of matches, I don't know if I would be adding energy faster than the energy dissipates into the environment (warm water cools if it meets and thus warms cooler air).

Maybe I could enclose the system. Put the water in a sealed insulator with a tiny conductor patch. Then I could apply my matches to that conductor patch. That reduces the energy dissipated into the environment.

Prestidigitation's thermodynamics inherit most of these issues, AND the warming effect has a duration that expires (unlike the heat transferred by matches). Thus I think there is a distinct limit to how great an effect you can get with the prestidigitation's thermodynamics. You might be able to freeze sufficiently frigid water or boil sufficiently hot water, however I don't expect you to boil warm water or freeze cool water with prestidigitation.


Prestidigitation is still one of the 3 cantrips that collectively are "Least Wish". They are solid.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I would say (and rule) that the effect is not "add X energy" or "remove X energy". Instead, it's "set thermal energy to X", which doesn't stack. So you can't get arbitrary temperature any more than you can wear many suits of armor and get arbitrary AC. And the two fixed values available are "warm" and "cool", not "boiling" (or even hot) or "freezing" (or even cold).

As for thermodynamics... The very existence of magic means the basic laws of nature must be different. Attempting to use real world science beyond what is available to a 12th century alchemist is an automatic failure--the world doesn't work that way.

[Segev]

Exothermic reaction refers to substance changing state of matter.

No, it doesn't. "Exothermic reaction" refers to a reaction that releases net heat into the surrounding environment. "Endothermic reactions" do the opposite. Boiling water is actually slightly endothermic; the water's temperature doesn't rise even as it absorbs heat while it is boiling. Same for melting ice: while ice is melting, it remains at the same temperature despite heat being added.

"Burning" (under most conditions we consider it) is an exothermic reaction: it is a chemical reaction that releases more heat into the surrounding environment than it consumes to sustain the reaction.

[Eldariel]

No, it doesn't. "Exothermic reaction" refers to a reaction that releases net heat into the surrounding environment. "Endothermic reactions" do the opposite. Boiling water is actually slightly endothermic; the water's temperature doesn't rise even as it absorbs heat while it is boiling. Same for melting ice: while ice is melting, it remains at the same temperature despite heat being added.

Okay, fair, exothermic reaction refers to a reaction that's exothermic ("thermos goes out") but my point was that changes in state of matter are endothermic or exothermic. Whenever a substance becomes more "gaseous" it absorbs thermal energy and whenever a substance becomes more "solid", it releases thermal energy.

Boiling of water is extremely endothermic: the enthalpy of vaporization for water is like 2300kJ/(kg*K) at boiling temperature so you need a lot of energy from vapor becoming liquid or liquid becoming solid to achieve that (or pressure changes, I guess).

[OldTrees1]

I would say (and rule) that the effect is not "add X energy" or "remove X energy". Instead, it's "set thermal energy to X", which doesn't stack. So you can't get arbitrary temperature any more than you can wear many suits of armor and get arbitrary AC. And the two fixed values available are "warm" and "cool", not "boiling" (or even hot) or "freezing" (or even cold).

As for thermodynamics... The very existence of magic means the basic laws of nature must be different. Attempting to use real world science beyond what is available to a 12th century alchemist is an automatic failure--the world doesn't work that way.

Interesting. Does that make the item a perfect insulator, does it make the item an infinite heat sink/source, or third thing for the duration?

For example if I put on a cloak, cast Warm Cloak, and then head out, will the cloak slightly warm up myself/the air around me or would the cloak perfectly insulate the part of my surface area it covers? Or some third thing.

Sidenote: You are right that the basic laws of nature are likely different. This could be expanding on the laws from our reality, and/or replacing them with different laws.
Nitpick: Thermodynamics has been understood for a very long time. Our understanding of it has deepened over time. The 12th century alchemist would understand the basics, if not the mechanism or the conservation. This nitpick of your example misses your point. Your point about the laws differing and possibly differing in a relevant area (see "third thing") is still accurate.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Interesting. Does that make the item a perfect insulator, does it make the item an infinite heat sink/source, or third thing for the duration?

For example if I put on a cloak, cast Warm Cloak, and then head out, will the cloak slightly warm up myself/the air around me or would the cloak perfectly insulate the part of my surface area it covers? Or some third thing.

Sidenote: You are right that the basic laws of nature are likely different. This could be expanding on the laws from our reality, and/or replacing them with different laws.
Nitpick: Thermodynamics has been understood for a very long time. Our understanding of it has deepened over time. The 12th century alchemist would understand the basics, if not the mechanism or the conservation. This nitpick of your example misses your point. Your point about the laws differing and possibly differing in a relevant area (see "third thing") is still accurate.

Either, both, or neither. Depending on the circumstances and the world. I could imagine a state where it stays at the set temperature without interacting with the surrounding environment thermally at all. Excess heat (in either direction) is shunted off into no-where land by the spell, which acts as an interface. The cloak would be warm to the touch...but not keep you warm (despite not cooling down either). Magic and modern-day thinking don't mesh.

[Composer99]

The design intent of many utility cantrips seems to be that they are not intended to directly cause harm. (Consider mold earth, which explicitly calls out that it's not meant to do damage. But if you have a helpless creature I daresay you could use the cantrip to bury them alive. As another example, mage hand can't be used to attack, but you can pour out the contents of a vial and there's no reason those contents couldn't be acid or poison.)

As such, I'm inclined to say that despite lacking any specific wording to that effect, the warming and chilling effects of prestidigitation ought not be capable of being used to eventually harm creatures, which probably means no casting it to stack those effects in such a way as to cause, say, boiling or freezing of water. (Especially since you still can use the spell to light a fire with which to boil water or harm creatures.)

[Imbalance]

Okay, fair, exothermic reaction refers to a reaction that's exothermic ("thermos goes out") but my point was that changes in state of matter are endothermic or exothermic. Whenever a substance becomes more "gaseous" it absorbs thermal energy and whenever a substance becomes more "solid", it releases thermal energy.

Boiling of water is extremely endothermic: the enthalpy of vaporization for water is like 2300kJ/(kg*K) at boiling temperature so you need a lot of energy from vapor becoming liquid or liquid becoming solid to achieve that (or pressure changes, I guess).

Since you're bringing enthalpy into this, tell me, what is the ΔT caused by prestidigitation? We also need to measure the starting temperature of the substance that you're warming or chilling so that we may calculate how many rounds it will take to freeze or boil. What? Your character doesn't have a thermometer? Huh.

[Dork_Forge]

Cantrips are cantrips regardless the level you take them at, they're not conflicting with leveled spell choices unless you consider some feats conflicting. There's no reason to not take Prestidigitation at a higher level, it's still fun and great for roleplay.

I am surprised by some peoples interpretations of it however:

-Warming and chilling something has a limit of 3 uses for one hour, and I'd personally say you couldn't use it twice on the same object anyway, as that is the object being affected by the same spell twice. Outside of that, trying to apply real-world scientific law to D&D will never fly and unless you DM is explicitly okay with using that to justify things, just comes across as picking and choosing how the world works to fit your ends.

-Prestidigitation lets you make a trinket, I interpret this one of two ways: get something from the trinket table, or make something literally useless. If it isn't useless, it isn't a trinket.

[Anymage]

Provided the world works the same WRT these matters, I'd expect the reactions to work the same too and I'd expect to be able to utilise them whether I'm a Fighter or a Wizard trying to achieve mundane but wondrous utility.

Lots of giant things would have an impossible time flying at their scale, never mind how the square cube rule would prevent a lot of those things from breathing or even standing up under their own weight. Combat would quickly become a lot more problematic when you had to worry about lingering injuries, bleeding out, and infection instead of a simple hit point mechanic. I'm sure other people could point out plenty of other places where mindlessly pasting magic or mythic creatures on top of our laws of physics would cause the whole thing to collapse into a series of spectacular failures in short order.

In other words no. We have no reason to believe that D&D worlds have anything more than a passing similarity to our own, and plans based on that assumption shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Segev]

Technically, nothing says the warming/chilling isn't instantaneous. It might solve the "but physics breaks!" problems if yoy heat anything to a "warm" temperature, but it then bleeds off normally. Absent some tech that is grossly anachronistic for D&D, I believe this will not allow for too much thermodynamic breakage of the setting.

[Tanarii]

Prestidigitation is mostly there for representing a character that can cast minor magical effects related to the kind of magic they use all day long, just like Thaumaturgy and Druidcraft. Slight of hand illusionists, priests, hedge wizards, etc. The elemental cantrips are the same, but for an element themed campaign / caster.

I agree that in practice, most players either take one for an appropriately themed character right away to reflect that kind of character background, or not at all. More commonly not at all. IMX they are not popular choices.

Edit: Prestidigitation doesn't create objects. It creates illusionary trinkets. Those of you wanting to create Objects need to look to Minor Conjuration.

[Foolwise]

If it isn't useless, it isn't a trinket.

Critical Role agrees.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Technically, nothing says the warming/chilling isn't instantaneous. It might solve the "but physics breaks!" problems if yoy heat anything to a "warm" temperature, but it then bleeds off normally. Absent some tech that is grossly anachronistic for D&D, I believe this will not allow for too much thermodynamic breakage of the setting.

Nah, you're still violating energy conservation, because the energy needed had to come from/go to somewhere.. Which it doesn't. And no, other planes don't work for this, for many reasons. Least of which is the fact that the very existence of other planes causes a real mess for gravity in a way that can't be explained away.

[Segev]

Nah, you're still violating energy conservation, because the energy needed had to come from/go to somewhere.. Which it doesn't. And no, other planes don't work for this, for many reasons. Least of which is the fact that the very existence of other planes causes a real mess for gravity in a way that can't be explained away.
You miss my point.

Magic does that all the time. Even Mage Hand is guilty of those kinds of energy-from-nowhere things. But it doesn't break anything by creating horrifying infinite energy cycles in practice.

[dafrca]

-Prestidigitation lets you make a trinket, I interpret this one of two ways: get something from the trinket table, or make something literally useless. If it isn't useless, it isn't a trinket.

I think there is a difference between useless for combat and just useless. I create a whistle and blow it so my team can find the pit we fell into is useful but not a game breaker. I create an illusion of the dungeon room where we found something to show the old scholar and he can see the alter it was on, not useless but still not a game breaker.

The cantrip does not say the trinket has to be useless, heck trinkets do not have to be useless either. A small cloth doll that sooths toothaches is a trinket but given the right encounter is far from useless. A mug that cools drinks is far from useless if you like your ale not room temperature.

I know I am being picky here, but often when a GM wants useless they really mean useless in combat. Yes, I can't use Prestidigitation to create a dagger or to light someone on fire with my shower of sparks. That is true. :smallsmile:

[Greywander]

I think it's best just to assume that D&D runs on different physics and leave it at that. You can leverage some basic Aristotelian or Newtonian physics, but definitely leave anything related to Relativity or Quantum Mechanics out. I don't think conservation of energy is something that should be considered, not necessarily because energy isn't conserved (so no perpetual motion machines), but because we just don't understand how energy works in these worlds. If you heat a bowl of soup, perhaps that heat came from somewhere else, so energy is still conserved. But you'd never be able to pull enough heat away from somewhere to make a noticeable difference.

Heck, it seems like the Square-Cube Law isn't even in effect, otherwise very large creatures would collapse under their own weight. Clearly, the macroscopic effects look similar enough to our world, but the underlying physics is different.

Now, all that said, Prestidigitation can be quite a useful spell. You do have to get creative with it, which can be a hurdle for optimizers because it's difficult to quantify. It's a weak spell, but a flexible one with a lot of different uses. That flexibility is its strength, you just need to know how to get the most out of it. It's kind of like in some anime where the antagonist has a really strong power, while the protagonist has a weak power that they use in creative ways to beat the antagonist.

[dafrca]

Edit: Prestidigitation doesn't create objects. It creates illusionary trinkets. Those of you wanting to create Objects need to look to Minor Conjuration.
Really, are you sure? It says "You create a nonmagical trinket or an illusory image... " Not an illusory trinket. Hum...

[PhoenixPhyre]

You miss my point.

Magic does that all the time. Even Mage Hand is guilty of those kinds of energy-from-nowhere things. But it doesn't break anything by creating horrifying infinite energy cycles in practice.

You've already broken physics. Conservation of energy is core to everything in physics--violate that and nothing else we know works.

You've got two choices once you accept magic--

1. Claim that "magic is the thing that is allowed to break the rules". Great. The outcome? You have a world that is completely incoherent at the fundamental physical principles level. Nothing can be reasoned about anything. Congratulations--you broke everything.
2. Claim that magic is described by physical law, but that physical law is different from what exists on Earth despite many of the surface outcomes being similar. This abandons the idea that you can analyze magic (or in fact anything in the fictional world) with modern real-world science, but gives you a consistent world to work from.

What you can't do (because real-world physical law explicitly rejects this possibility) is say that everything works by real-world physics except where noted and magic is free to break the laws, but that the world is still consistent and rationalizable. The statement "magic can break conservation laws, but those laws still hold elsewhere" is a nullity--either the laws hold everywhere or they don't hold. Because central to those laws is the idea of their universality (this is core to relativity, among other things).

[JNAProductions]

Or… you accept that this is a game, not a physics lesson, and just let that bit of unreality slide.

You COULD try to explain it with a new set of scientific laws… but would that actually improve the game?

[Chronos]

It came in handy when we were in a bar that didn't serve anything but something even the locals called "worm p*ss, and we didn't want to offend the locals (too much). Suddenly that bad beer tastes much better, and we don't have to gag on it.

[Foolwise]

Or… you accept that this is a game, not a physics lesson, and just let that bit of unreality slide.

You COULD try to explain it with a new set of scientific laws… but would that actually improve the game?

No, but it would break our world as you come to grips with the fact that we are all just characters on sheets played by magical beings as part of their Science & Society game.

[Greywander]

It would be pretty funny if the D&D universe ran on insane troll logic. Like, the Fly spell is literally just covering yourself in oil while it's raining, but no one ever explains this to non-casters because it's a secret.

[Hytheter]

It would be pretty funny if the D&D universe ran on insane troll logic. Like, the Fly spell is literally just covering yourself in oil while it's raining, but no one ever explains this to non-casters because it's a secret.

Come on, don't be ridiculous.

Everyone knows that you fly by throwing yourself at the ground, and missing.

[Unoriginal]

Or… you accept that this is a game, not a physics lesson, and just let that bit of unreality slide.

You COULD try to explain it with a new set of scientific laws… but would that actually improve the game?

The point is that since it's a game and not a physics lessons, saying "this uses real-world physical laws" sometime in order to achieve what you want and discarding said physical laws when they are inconvenient isn't a good look.


It would be pretty funny if the D&D universe ran on insane troll logic. Like, the Fly spell is literally just covering yourself in oil while it's raining, but no one ever explains this to non-casters because it's a secret.

Well, casters achieve metamorphosis by using a chrysalis, create fireballs by using gunpowder's ingredients, and read minds via using pennies for your thoughts.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Or… you accept that this is a game, not a physics lesson, and just let that bit of unreality slide.

You COULD try to explain it with a new set of scientific laws… but would that actually improve the game?

Personally, as both a worldbuilder and someone with a background in the hard sciences, I prefer to create that new set of laws (at a very basic level), but only invoke it internally to predict and explain what's happening in other terms. I do make it clear that real-world-science-based justifications for things[1] aren't going to be an option, because the real physical laws here are very different. Because that stops most of the bad behavior in its tracks while still producing a world that can be reasoned about.

The only time I weaponize it is when people (inevitably on forums, rather than in game) insist on using bad real-world science to try to justify their munchkinry. The whole "appeal to badly-understood and mostly irrelevant real-world laws where convenient, then flip back to game rules wherever that's convenient" forum two-step annoys me heavily.

[1] beyond the surface phenomena familiar to a 12th century alchemist.

[Segev]

You've already broken physics. Conservation of energy is core to everything in physics--violate that and nothing else we know works.

I didn't say anything about "breaking physics." I was talking about the setting and the game when I was talking about nothing being broken by it. The tech level of D&D doesn't support the tools and techniques and technologies needed to use these things in the ways that would be setting-shaking.

Yes, if this were the industrial revolution, this would be game-changing stuff. It isn't.

[Greywander]

The only time I weaponize it is when people (inevitably on forums, rather than in game) insist on using bad real-world science to try to justify their munchkinry. The whole "appeal to badly-understood and mostly irrelevant real-world laws where convenient, then flip back to game rules wherever that's convenient" forum two-step annoys me heavily.
Like the peasant rail gun. Game mechanics allow you to pass a projectile down the line of peasants in the span of only 6 seconds, regardless of how many peasants there are, thus accelerating the projectile to the speed of sound or faster and launching it with lethal force at a target. Nevermind that the same mechanics that allow you to pass it down the line of peasants would just have the last peasant throw the project tile a few feet and deal regular damage on a hit, or that the physics that dictates how a projectile accelerated to such fast speeds would actually be impossible to pass down a line of people.

They're basically using two sets of rules and only using the rules from each set that produce the most favorable results while ignoring the rules that would impede the desired result. That said, I think the peasant rail gun may have only ever been a thought experiment, not something that was ever actually used in a game (though I'm sure people tried after the initial idea was posted online).

[PhoenixPhyre]

I didn't say anything about "breaking physics." I was talking about the setting and the game when I was talking about nothing being broken by it. The tech level of D&D doesn't support the tools and techniques and technologies needed to use these things in the ways that would be setting-shaking.

Yes, if this were the industrial revolution, this would be game-changing stuff. It isn't.

I consider "physical law is inconsistent and self contradictory and you can't reason about cause and effect" to be setting breaking. Which is what happens as soon as you try to apply real world science to magic. Everything falls apart.

[Unoriginal]

I didn't say anything about "breaking physics." I was talking about the setting and the game when I was talking about nothing being broken by it. The tech level of D&D doesn't support the tools and techniques and technologies needed to use these things in the ways that would be setting-shaking.

Yes, if this were the industrial revolution, this would be game-changing stuff. It isn't.

If it is inconsequential, why want it?


Like the peasant rail gun. Game mechanics allow you to pass a projectile down the line of peasants in the span of only 6 seconds, regardless of how many peasants there are, thus accelerating the projectile to the speed of sound or faster and launching it with lethal force at a target. Nevermind that the same mechanics that allow you to pass it down the line of peasants would just have the last peasant throw the project tile a few feet and deal regular damage on a hit, or that the physics that dictates how a projectile accelerated to such fast speeds would actually be impossible to pass down a line of people.

They're basically using two sets of rules and only using the rules from each set that produce the most favorable results while ignoring the rules that would impede the desired result.

Indeed.

[pothocboots]

If it is inconsequential, why want it?

There's is a difference between "Doesn't break the setting" and "Is inconsequential"

Maybe I just want to cook soup for my party without lighting a fire to give away our position.

[Psyren]

*steps around the mound of decomposing catgirl corpses*


If you don't choose Prestidigitation when you first get access to it, would you ever have reason to take it later? You pick your last cantrip at level 10 when full casters have access to 5th level spells... and you are going to learn Prestidigitation, a cantrip that has this description:


lol
With 5th level spells at your disposal, party parlor tricks are a bit blasé. You haven't reached god-tier yet, but you aren't a two-bit caster either. Except for Artificer, every class that gets Prestidigitation also has access to Minor Illusion which better does two of Presti's six effects. Three... if you don't mind the object not actually getting cleaned or soiled.

On the one hand, sure, it's optimal take it early rather than late. On the other hand, you have fewer cantrips early, and you'll want at least one of them to be direct damage a lot of the time so you don't have to break out the crossbow several fights in.


Least Wish is a fine Cantrip to pick up. Even at 19th level.

In 5E Least Wish is divided into Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, and Druidcraft. They are fine choices at any level.

Well, two out of three ain't bad.

[Segev]

If it is inconsequential, why want it?

I never said it was "inconsequential." I said it wasn't setting-shaking/breaking.

Is nothing that doesn't break the game or revolutionize the setting away from the pseudo-medieval fantasy it's set up to be worth wanting?

[kazaryu]

Hmm..."Your Obvious Implication" is too limited in scope, I'm afraid.

One can warm blankets for an hour with each use of this spell, or chill robes. Warm Blankets can help one survive in cold temperatures, same as a cool robe could during excessive heat. yes, congratulations, you know what else would help with that? getting clothes appropriate to the temperature. and prestidigitation isn't going to help you when you go to sleep...which is when the most danger is due to your body temperature cooling while you sleep. however, you are correct that i was wrong in assuming its only for food, it can be applied to other things. but again, not in a way thats actually useful outside of creature comforts.


There is nothing in the Prestidigitation spell description that limits flavoring to foodstuffs. One could add flavor to a Longsword.

"Taste my Steel!!!....no really...my sword tastes like peppermint".🃏

i mean, yes you could lol. but thats hardly a mechanical benefit

[Foolwise]

Claiming longswords aren't foodstuffs is straight up speciesism. Oozes gotta eat too.

[Greywander]

i mean, yes you could lol. but thats hardly a mechanical benefit
Prestidigitation is the sort of ability that you have to look beyond raw mechanical benefits. D&D isn't a video game, part of the roleplay is behaving as a person living in another world, and part of the DM's job is to do the same with NPCs. Harmless sensory effects, non-magical trinkets, or the ability to warm, chill, or flavor something can all be used in ways that don't grant a mechanical advantage, but would cause other people to behave differently, or even cause the environment itself to react.

For example, a harmless sensory effect can be used to distract someone, diverting their attention and possibly even drawing them into a trap or away from something they're guarding. You can warm someone's beer to make them think the barkeep is stiffing them, or use flavoring to cover up poison. You could briefly show someone a rare item, offering to sell or give it to them if they fulfill some request or conditions for you (when in reality it was just a fake that disappeared after a few seconds). There are tons of possibilities for a spell like this, you just have to get creative and think less like a character in a game and more like an actual person living within that world.

YMMV, as this does require some DM buy-in, much the same as illusion spells. It's understandable if a DM doesn't want to play that kind of game, but they should be up-front with their players about that. But I think it would be a shame not to allow this sort of creative play, which can lead to a lot more interesting adventures and stories than something more focused on mechanical combat.

[kazaryu]

Prestidigitation is the sort of ability that you have to look beyond raw mechanical benefits. D&D isn't a video game, part of the roleplay is behaving as a person living in another world, and part of the DM's job is to do the same with NPCs. Harmless sensory effects, non-magical trinkets, or the ability to warm, chill, or flavor something can all be used in ways that don't grant a mechanical advantage, but would cause other people to behave differently, or even cause the environment itself to react.

For example, a harmless sensory effect can be used to distract someone, diverting their attention and possibly even drawing them into a trap or away from something they're guarding. You can warm someone's beer to make them think the barkeep is stiffing them, or use flavoring to cover up poison. You could briefly show someone a rare item, offering to sell or give it to them if they fulfill some request or conditions for you (when in reality it was just a fake that disappeared after a few seconds). There are tons of possibilities for a spell like this, you just have to get creative and think less like a character in a game and more like an actual person living within that world.

YMMV, as this does require some DM buy-in, much the same as illusion spells. It's understandable if a DM doesn't want to play that kind of game, but they should be up-front with their players about that. But I think it would be a shame not to allow this sort of creative play, which can lead to a lot more interesting adventures and stories than something more focused on mechanical combat.

thats not an effect thats created by the spell, thats using the spell to flavor something you could do anyway. thats my point. there is no 'getting creative' with prestidigitation from a mechanical standpoint. it has several things it can do, but all of them are just...flavorings of things that can be done in a variety of different ways, both magical or non-magical. its just not an optimizers spell. please, try to understand where a person is coming from before saying things like 'you have to stop thinking like a video game'. im speaking in the context the OP started, from an optimizers perspective. i've also stated that, in spite of the spell not actually providing anything mechanically, its still a spell i always take.

[Thunderous Mojo]

its just not an optimizers spell.

Wouldn't that depend on what you are "Optimizing" for?

There are not a lot of spells in 5e that create scents. Spells such as Major Image that do create illusionary scents, often tie those scents to a visual phenomenon the spell creates.

Prestidigitation, magically speaking, covers some niches that other magics either do not cover, or those magics come with a significantly higher cost; be it in the form of the spell slot required for the spell, or a Concentration cost.

For a class that starts with 3 Cantrips, Prestidigitation is a solid third Cantrip selection. For other classes, Prestidigitation, is a fine selection as one advances in level.

Teleportation mishaps, Magical Gates, large birds of prey grabbing a character and dropping the PC into frigid waters, all of these perils and more can land someone into a hazard that they were not explicitly prepared for. Prestidigitation has quite a few bullets points under it's description, and serves as a good multi-tool.

[Unoriginal]

There's is a difference between "Doesn't break the setting" and "Is inconsequential"

Maybe I just want to cook soup for my party without lighting a fire to give away our position.


I never said it was "inconsequential." I said it wasn't setting-shaking/breaking.

Is nothing that doesn't break the game or revolutionize the setting away from the pseudo-medieval fantasy it's set up to be worth wanting?

It's true there is a big gap between "doesn't break the setting" and "is inconsequential", but then the question is: are the positive consequences of doing the whole "alternate between using physical laws and game logic depending which is convenient at the time" thing only for the PCs?

If it is only for the PCs, the question is "why do the PC get to do that and not the rest of the world?".

If it's not only for the PCs, the question is: "why is it not setting-shaking?"

Being able to produce boiling water, or boiling-temperature-anything, would have massive implications in, for example, the module Rime of the Frostmaiden. And that's just one of the things.

[MoiMagnus]

It's true there is a big gap between "doesn't break the setting" and "is inconsequential", but then the question is: are the positive consequences of doing the whole "alternate between using physical laws and game logic depending which is convenient at the time" thing only for the PCs?

If it is only for the PCs, the question is "why do the PC get to do that and not the rest of the world?".

If it's not only for the PCs, the question is: "why is it not setting-shaking?"

Being able to produce boiling water, or boiling-temperature-anything, would have massive implications in, for example, the module Rime of the Frostmaiden. And that's just one of the things.

And prestidigitation is far from the only spell that does it. Between "Create Bonefire", "Fire Bolt", "Shape Water" (which allows to freeze) and many others, I think that's fair to say that peoples can break conservation of energy.
An that's not counting all the various monsters that are literally made of flames or cold.

There are two ways of dealing with "small stuff that are potentially setting-shaking":

(1) Restrict their availability. Just because it's a cantrip doesn't means it's easy to learn. Just because a PC can take it with a feat doesn't mean it doesn't require 10+ years of training for a regular human being to learn. Just because a PC is always allowed by the rules to take it doesn't mean you need to be in the "special 1%" of peoples genetically able to use magic to be able to learn magic. Etc.

(2) Restrict its practicality. Just because you have a screwdriver and the problem is a screw doesn't mean you have enough room around the screw to put your screwdriver. The description of cantrips doesn't go much into the details of all the little quirks and "actually, it doesn't work well in this particular situation" because no designers wants to write a 2-pages long text for each cantrip detailing their inner working about what the cantrip actually does, and most players don't want to read through such lengthy text.
[For example, for prestidigitation, maybe you're taking the heat/cold out of yourself, so spamming it can be problematic to your health]

The general ruling of my GM is "When doing something complex with a cantrip, the cantrip adds your proficiency bonus to the check (potentially on top of existing proficiency bonuses), but very rarely offers an automatic success. If it is really perfectly adequate, an advantage might also be granted.". E.G:
=> You want to give some heat to peoples so that they don't die out of cold. That's a Survival check to find the good positions to avoid the wind, preserve the heat, etc. And if you have a cantrip that produces heat, that's an additional proficiency bonus to this test.
=> You want to repair some machinery. That's a tool proficiency check, but if you have Mending, that's an additional proficiency bonus to this test.

[Segev]

It's true there is a big gap between "doesn't break the setting" and "is inconsequential", but then the question is: are the positive consequences of doing the whole "alternate between using physical laws and game logic depending which is convenient at the time" thing only for the PCs?

If it is only for the PCs, the question is "why do the PC get to do that and not the rest of the world?".

If it's not only for the PCs, the question is: "why is it not setting-shaking?"

Being able to produce boiling water, or boiling-temperature-anything, would have massive implications in, for example, the module Rime of the Frostmaiden. And that's just one of the things.

Once again, this argument is attributing a position to me that I do not believe I've espoused. Where did I say to switch - conveniently or otherwise - between game mechanics and "real-world physics?" My statement was that having prestidigitation magically alter the temperature of an item as an instantaneous effect, so long as it can only "warm" or "cool," (and not, for example, bring to temperatures that could cause harm nor bring from temperatures that cause harm to non-harmful temperatures, neither of which the game rules support it being able to do), it does not cause setting-shaking rammifications.

Nowhere in that have I brought up shifting between game rules and real physics. I have said that even if we adhere to real physics as we understand them, the game rules don't cause setting-shaking breaks to appear. Not at the level of tech that D&D deals with. I went on to say that it might have some dramatic impacts at industrial revolution level tech or later, but anything the thermodynamics-breaking of prestidigitation in pseudo-medieval tech levels can do will not result in immediate destabilization of the setting expectations.

[Chronos]

Quoth MoiMagnus:

=> You want to repair some machinery. That's a tool proficiency check, but if you have Mending, that's an additional proficiency bonus to this test.
Or how about "but if you have Mending, then that's what Mending does"? I mean, that's what it's for.


Quoth Greywander:

Prestidigitation is the sort of ability that you have to look beyond raw mechanical benefits. D&D isn't a video game, part of the roleplay is behaving as a person living in another world, and part of the DM's job is to do the same with NPCs. Harmless sensory effects, non-magical trinkets, or the ability to warm, chill, or flavor something can all be used in ways that don't grant a mechanical advantage, but would cause other people to behave differently, or even cause the environment itself to react.
You don't even need to be interacting with others for it to be relevant. Even a solo adventurer who's just gotten through slogging through a swamp, still in the middle of the wilderness where they won't meet anyone civilized for days, might still want to clean up just because they, personally, like to be clean. Remember, D&D isn't actually about solving the problems that the DM places before you: It's about doing what you want. And sometimes, what you want is exactly what a cantrip can give you.