Help remaking my bard to be competent?

[Rfkannen]

A campaign that has been on a 3 year hiatus is restarting, and we have been given a chance to adjust our characters to our current tastes and to incorporate any new material published in 5e. I def want to remake my character because while my character was super fun to roleplay (my favorite character I have ever made tbh) he was TERRIBLE in combat.

Story wise ludvig was a member of a extremely isolationist kingdom of half giants (half elf, have ice giant) who lived in the frozen north. He was a low ranking soldier, and a devote follower of the god of law. He secretly got married to a human bard, and then had to watch the human age and die. The kingdom caught him doing a burial for his husband, and exiled him for fraternizing with a foreigner. He is now on a quest to find a cure for human's short lifespans, and to master the music his husband loved so much.



The character was a level 3 valor bard with the soldier background, mechanically he was a goliath. His stats were 16 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 7 int, 8 wis 17 cha. ( I can move around stats but can't reroll)

Ludvig just flat out didn't work in combat, he was designed to be a melee character but his ac was super bad, the gm ruled for lore reasons that unless a bard had the warcaster feat they needed to be holding an instrument to cast spells (so no greatsword and component pouch, I had to go longsword and horn), and I just never felt effective as him. In 3 levels he almost died like 5 times.

The other party members were a firbolg bear totem barbarian, a human wild magic sorcerer, and a halfling fey patron warlock of the tome.



Any tips for making this character work mechanically? I had originally pictured him as a strength based gish (to reflect his half giant heritage) but if that just doesn't work I am super willing to make him a more classic spellcaster. I am not tied to valor bard.



Literally any tips you have to make this character work in play (and hopefully reflect his backstory) are super appreciated!

[Bobthewizard]

Valor bards don't make good melee bards. Their combat inspiration only helps others so they have no way to add damage to their attacks. They make great bards though. Bards need medium armor and a way to help their concentration saves. That takes most bards two feats, but a valor bard can get there with just one.

If you want a melee bard, consider swords bard. Their flourishes help you in combat and they get to add +2 to each hit with the dueling style. And swords bard can use their weapon as a focus.

For both of these DEX is better than STR so you can add the +2 to your AC with breastplate or half-plate. If you want to go STR, starting with a level or two of fighter or paladin for heavy armor would be a great option. Swords bard with two levels of paladin is a great melee character. Maybe one of the best in late tier 2 to early tier 3, since you can use bard spell slots to fuel smites.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I'd recommend Archer. You're character's not full blooded giant, maybe retconned that he was trained to stay back since he's so "small"? Use the long bow, take Swift Quiver with Magical secrets at level 10. Four attacks a round a level before a Full Fighter or Eldritch Blast Warlock gets 3.

A few questions to aim at the DM/Considerations.

1: You want Str. Ask DM if he's allow a Giant's bow using Str instead of Dex. (You wield this monstrous almost branch that normal men can't even string and you fire arrows closer to javelins with it. Mechanically just a Longbow using Str instead of Dex.) If DM allows this then you're AC ends up 2 worse than it could be, but you're in the back line. If DM doesn't allow this could still flavor it that way but switch your Str and Dex stats. Then you're AC is fine.

2: Would your DM allow something like the FFXIV Bard Harps? If you look at the MMO, the Bard's primary instrument is a Harp/Bow that they fire arrows from in between playing. Would give you instrument in hand without being absent a weapon.

[RogueJK]

If you want to remain a melee Bard, switching to DEX-based Swords Bard is going to be your most straightforward option. Swap the 16 and 11 between STR and DEX, and then wield a Rapier with the Dueling fighting style while wearing Medium Armor. The downside to this option is that you'll still have just a moderate AC of only ~16-17, although you can boost this occasionally with Defensive Flourish. Not terrible, but not great for a fairly squishy character in frequent melee. So if going this route, consider taking the Mobile feat at Bard 4, to allow you to move in and out of danger, acting more like a Striker to jab-and-move while the Barbarian hopefully bears the brunt of the enemy attacks.

Or, if you want to do STR-based and have a higher AC to hang out in melee, start with 1 level of Fighter or 2 levels of Paladin for Heavy Armor and Defense Fighting Style, and then go Swords Bard with Dueling fighting style with Longsword while wearing Heavy Armor. You'll delay your Bard abilities, spellcasting, and Extra Attack by a level or two, but your AC will be high enough to more easily survive in melee (19+). And this would actually track with his backstory, with him having a level or two in Fighter/Paladin to reflect his experience as a soldier before switching to Bard to follow in his late husband's footsteps...

In addition, a Swords Bard has the specific ability to use a melee weapon as a spellcasting focus, so you won't have to keep one hand tied up with an instrument, even if you don't have the Warcaster feat. This also means that starting at Bard 3, you can wield a longsword and shield if you're proficient (like from the Fighter/Paladin dip) while still casting spells, which would result in an AC as high as 21 with Plate Armor + Shield + Defense Fighting Style. Plus stacking Defensive Flourish on top as needed.

[Contrast]

You really have to decide what aspects of the character are most important to you.

Would this character work as a straight paladin who uses their background/feats to pick up additional frills as necessary? Custom backgrounds are a thing so you can keep the soldier feature while picking up whatever tool/skill proficiencies you need to bring the character to life. Skill Expert at 4 to round out Cha and pick up expertise in Performance.

Or is being a bard more important? Taking a level of fighter or two levels of paladin (or 6 levels of paladin...) all help but fundamentally we're papering over the cracks a little. Normally I'd suggest sorc or warlock options or multiclasses but given you have both of those in the party already I'll leave the decision on if thats a good idea to you.

Another option would be to change track entirely and build them as a cleric - there's more innate support for having a strength based martial element on the cleric class than there is on bard without the need for faffing about with multiclassing.

[Potato_Priest]

I suspect Bobthewizard's got the right of it- your character isn't bad (in fact, your stats are great), it's just that he's still a bard, and it sounds from your complaints like you were expecting him not to be.

Since being a bard is still important to your character's backstory, I recommend keeping that. I also recommend keeping the high strength, since he is after all a half giant. Having decided on these two things, you're going to be stuck with somewhat lowish AC. But don't fret! There are many ways to compensate for this, and it will also matter less and less as your levels go up and enemy attack values go through the roof. Against the +14 to hit adult red dragon we're all no-dex valor bards.

Other people are going to tell you how to build a better melee character. I'm going to tell you how to be better at enjoying the character you have.

Problem 1: Squishiness

This is a problem mostly because you're trying to melee as a bard. While there are colleges that can pull this off with a bare degree of competency (college of swords dex builds) even they are still pretty far from fantastic melee combatants. There's just only so much you can do with a bard chassis.

Instead of playing your valor bard as a melee character, you need to be playing him as a bard that has options other than 1d4 vicious mockery when the enemies get close. I'd suggest wearing a shield and carrying an instrument in your off hand to cast spells most of the time and switching to javelins for a basic ranged attack or your longsword for melee.

Also, since your AC is low definitely pick up the Mirror Image (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:mirror-image) spell at 2nd level. It offers a source of protection from attacks that doesn't rely on armor class (or concentration) at all.

Problem 2: Damage

You feel like you're not dealing enough damage. Well, yeah. You're a bard. Like tanking, damage isn't exactly a bard specialty either. As a valor bard, you're more about buffing ally damage with your bardic inspiration than dishing it out yourself.

However, if you really want to deal out some pain there's a combo for you to try.

Do you know the spell Dissonant Whispers (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:dissonant-whispers)? Here's the text:

1st-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V
Duration: Instantaneous

You whisper a discordant melody that only one creature of your choice within range can hear, wracking it with terrible pain. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 3d6 psychic damage and must immediately use its reaction, if available, to move as far as its speed allows away from you. The creature doesn’t move into obviously dangerous ground, such as a fire or a pit. On a successful save, the target takes half as much damage and doesn’t have to move away. A deafened creature automatically succeeds on the save.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 1st.

Firstly, notice the damage. 3d6 ain't shabby, and it's a good damage type. Second, notice the components required. Verbal only, which means you can use it with a longsword and a shield, or even a greatsword if you are so inclined. Lastly, notice the additional spell effect. The target has to use its reaction to move away from you. THIS PROVOKES OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS! So, for the cost of a 1st level spell, you can make an enemy eat 3d6+your weapon damage+any nearby allies' weapon damage (+ potentially your bardic inspiration if you've buffed the ally), waste their reaction, and break formation. Not bad at all, and you can do it with any weapons you want in your hand.

Also, in large battlefields if you step back 5 feet after doing this, an enemy won't be able to reach you to attack in melee again on its turn, since it just moved its entire speed away from you. It can dash to get back but then it's just wasted its turn, which is also pretty dang sweet.

[Amechra]

Part of your problem here is that Strength-based characters tend to have pretty bad AC if they can't wear plate.

If you want to stick with a pure Bard, you might want to talk to your DM and see if they'll let you use Combat Inspiration on yourself (preferably without having to spend a bonus action first). If not, swapping over to a Paladin 2/Bard 1 would push your spellcasting back a level or two in exchange for vastly improved combat abilities.,, so maybe try that out? And hey, it'll also give you Compelled Duel, which seems pretty thematic.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First, you're only allowed to use a spellcasting focus for spells that have a material component. There are plenty of bard spells with no material components (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/class/bard?filter-search=&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=&filter-material=f&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=), and there's a decent selection that only require a verbal component (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/class/bard?filter-search=&filter-verbal=&filter-somatic=f&filter-material=f&filter-concentration=&filter-ritual=&filter-sub-class=) which can be cast your hands full.

Swap your background to something that's fitting, but more beneficial. Everyone is able to customize their background per PHB p125. Pick Azorius Functionary from GGR, but swap the background feature to that of a Soldier. Keep your existing trait/ideals/bonds/flaws and proficiencies, this is just a more specific version of Soldier that's fitting for your lawful character. The main benefit of this is being able to learn specific spells as Bard spells due to the background, namely Command (verbal component only) and Counterspell (somatic component only, more on that later).

Assuming you can swap class levels, find an excuse to multiclass for heavy armor and shield proficiency. Given your ability scores, it looks like your choices are limited to saying you took Fighter or Paladin at 1st level. Either of those would be fitting (former soldier, or former zealot who never took an oath), and either one would be useful for taking a second level later on. I'd personally pick Fighter with the Defense fighting style. So instead of Bard 3, you'll be a Fighter 1/ Bard 2, this will only cost you two instrument proficiencies, you'll have slightly higher hp, and your proficient saves will be swapped.

Be proficient in Athletics, and put expertise on it. Select the College of Lore, and take Shield Master asap. Take Vicious Mockery, Dissonant Whispers, Healing Word, and Blindness/Deafness for sure.

Your job won't be to deal damage. Instead you'll be tanky (plate armor, shield, defense style), and you'll run in and grapple then bonus-action shove prone (with Shield Master) the most dangerous opponent at the start of every encounter. You can use Cutting Words if they roll well against your athletics check. After that use your verbal-component-only spells to disrupt opponents, or you can shove an enemy then bonus-action shove another. Use Healing Word to pick up a downed ally along with a Vicious Mockery, or use your action for a spell then your bonus action to give an ally bardic inspiration. Later on you can start the fight with a big spell like Hypnotic Pattern, then move in for the grapple-shove on the following round. Have your horn hanging around your neck, use your free item interaction to grab it with your free hand and then drop it immediately after you've cast.

RAW on grappling, "...you can release the target whenever you like (no action required)." This means you can let go of the creature you have grappled as part of the reaction to cast Counterspell.

At Bard 8 consider taking Fey Touched for + Cha and to learn some choice spells. If you don't like that one, Telekinetic is pretty good for a utility bonus action, or Telepathic is more RP heavy.

This isn't a damage-dealing character, it's instead a very tanky support character that excels in disrupting opponents' actions.

[Rfkannen]

Thank you all for the advice! it is all super helpful!

How does this sound?

I want him to have some melee capability, but I think giving him a ranged option (I LOVE the harp bow idea) and making him mostly a spellcaster sounds like a good idea! So I will switch the physical stats (but not the racial bonuses) so that he has 12 str, 14 dex, and 17 con (including the +1 str and +2 con). Grab athletics expertise to represent natural half giant strength

Swap the longsword for a rapier, grab a harp bow for ranged combat. Swich between bow, shield and horn, and horn and sword, and horn with empty hand (for grappling) depending on the situation.

Change spell list to:
Cantrips: Prestidigitation and Vicious mockery
Lv 1: Dissonant whispers, farie fire, healing word
lv 2: heat metal, shatter, enlarge/reduce (either to buff the barbarian or let myself grapple better)

Does that seem like a good plan? I like the idea of him mostly being a spellcaster with some extra martial versatility and it seems this would do that? Any recommendations for what would be a good use of the level 4 asi?

[LudicSavant]

A campaign that has been on a 3 year hiatus is restarting, and we have been given a chance to adjust our characters to our current tastes and to incorporate any new material published in 5e. I def want to remake my character because while my character was super fun to roleplay (my favorite character I have ever made tbh) he was TERRIBLE in combat.

Story wise ludvig was a member of a extremely isolationist kingdom of half giants (half elf, have ice giant) who lived in the frozen north. He was a low ranking soldier, and a devote follower of the god of law. He secretly got married to a human bard, and then had to watch the human age and die. The kingdom caught him doing a burial for his husband, and exiled him for fraternizing with a foreigner. He is now on a quest to find a cure for human's short lifespans, and to master the music his husband loved so much.



The character was a level 3 valor bard with the soldier background, mechanically he was a goliath. His stats were 16 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 7 int, 8 wis 17 cha. ( I can move around stats but can't reroll)

Ludvig just flat out didn't work in combat, he was designed to be a melee character but his ac was super bad, the gm ruled for lore reasons that unless a bard had the warcaster feat they needed to be holding an instrument to cast spells (so no greatsword and component pouch, I had to go longsword and horn), and I just never felt effective as him. In 3 levels he almost died like 5 times.

The other party members were a firbolg bear totem barbarian, a human wild magic sorcerer, and a halfling fey patron warlock of the tome.



Any tips for making this character work mechanically? I had originally pictured him as a strength based gish (to reflect his half giant heritage) but if that just doesn't work I am super willing to make him a more classic spellcaster. I am not tied to valor bard.



Literally any tips you have to make this character work in play (and hopefully reflect his backstory) are super appreciated!


So there are a few main mechanical issues popping out at me here.

1) As BobtheWizard says, Valor Bard isn't actually one of the better Bards for frontlining (IMHO). Why?
- Extra Attack is only as good as the features supporting it -- a maxxed attack attribute, Fighting Styles, Smites, all that stuff. And Valor Bards... don't really have much in the way of that. Oh sure, they can use some potent Concentration buffs to improve their melee potential, but those same spell slots and Concentration could be used just as efficiently (or perhaps more efficiently) on non-melee-based things.
- If you try to address this by multiclassing (such as by getting a 1 level Hexblade dip to become Cha-SAD and get Hexblade's Curse and so forth), it makes their weapon/armor feature redundant so you might as well be another subclass.
- Their Combat Inspiration isn't as helpful for a frontliner as stuff like Cutting Words or Mantle of Inspiration or Blade Flourish. It can't boost your own AC, and it has to be pre-cast in order to protect allies (which means you need to be able to predict that they will be attracting enemy attacks, such as if they are the tank instead of you).
- Their armor/shield proficiency is nice, but it's only a 1-level dip or a Dex-boosting Half-Feat away for others, and the competing subclass features are often worth more than half a feat.

I would rather see a melee Bard fashioned from something like a Lore, Glamour, Whispers, or Swords Bard.

2) "Horn and longsword" is not a good melee loadout. You want a shield or something if you're gonna venture into melee. And proper armor besides.

If you can't fit warcaster in, you might be able to find some other arrangement with your DM, such as using a Ruby of the War Mage or something. I dunno.

3) Strength is a terrible stat for a straight-class Bard. You could maybe swing it on a Swords Bardadin. Alternatively, you could switch melee stat to Cha (if you dip Hexblade 1) or Dex (in which case you probably wanna be Swords Bard).

[Rfkannen]

So there are a few main mechanical issues popping out at me here.

1) As BobtheWizard says, Valor Bard isn't actually one of the better Bards for frontlining (IMHO). Why?
- Extra Attack is only as good as the features supporting it -- a maxxed attack attribute, Fighting Styles, Smites, all that stuff. And Valor Bards... don't really have much in the way of that. Oh sure, they can use some potent Concentration buffs to improve their melee potential, but those same spell slots and Concentration could be used just as efficiently (or perhaps more efficiently) on non-melee-based things.
- If you try to address this by multiclassing (such as by getting a 1 level Hexblade dip to become Cha-SAD and get Hexblade's Curse and so forth), it makes their weapon/armor feature redundant so you might as well be another subclass.
- Their Combat Inspiration isn't as helpful for a frontliner as stuff like Cutting Words or Mantle of Inspiration or Blade Flourish. It can't boost your own AC, and it has to be pre-cast in order to protect allies (which means you need to be able to predict that they will be attracting enemy attacks, such as if they are the tank instead of you).
- Their armor/shield proficiency is nice, but it's only a 1-level dip or a Dex-boosting Half-Feat away for others, and the competing subclass features are often worth more than half a feat.

I would rather see a melee Bard fashioned from something like a Lore, Glamour, Whispers, or Swords Bard.

2) "Horn and longsword" is not a good melee loadout. You want a shield or something if you're gonna venture into melee. And proper armor besides.

If you can't fit warcaster in, you might be able to find some other arrangement with your DM, such as using a Ruby of the War Mage or something. I dunno.

3) Strength is a terrible stat for a straight-class Bard. You could maybe swing it on a Swords Bardadin. Alternatively, you could switch melee stat to Cha (if you dip Hexblade 1) or Dex (in which case you probably wanna be Swords Bard).

Yeah I am definitely thinking I am going to focus less on melee, switch my stats around to have 14 dex and 17 con, and then use valor abilities mostly to defend the squishier members of the party and not need to take moderately armored. I like the idea of using a horn and sword, but your right that horn and shield will probably be a better idea 99% of the time.

[Eldariel]

For melee Str Bard, Paladin 2/Swords Bard X is fairly good (though the Extra Attack comes late). This gets Extra Attack and flourishes (plus Athletics Expertise) to abuse repositioning, which you can combine with e.g. Cloud of Daggers or an ally's Create Bonfire for hilarity. And you can Smite someone pretty hard too. And wear heavy armor and a shield. And pick up dueling and your one-handed weapon; for bonus action, you could take Telekinetic for even more pushing of enemies around or there's always the PAM (horn would totally work as a "Quarterstaff" so it should be fine).

[Potato_Priest]

Change spell list to:
Cantrips: Prestidigitation and Vicious mockery
Lv 1: Dissonant whispers, farie fire, healing word
lv 2: heat metal, shatter, enlarge/reduce (either to buff the barbarian or let myself grapple better)

Does that seem like a good plan? I like the idea of him mostly being a spellcaster with some extra martial versatility and it seems this would do that? Any recommendations for what would be a good use of the level 4 asi?

I'm going to keep plugging Mirror Image for the spell list (if it were me I'd replace Shatter), but this seems like a pretty good plan in general.

On the ASI:

As I see it, you have 3 good options.

Option 1: +1 Cha, +1 Con.Straightforward, and bumps two stats up to a new modifier, including your casting stat. More hit points and a higher spell save DC.

Option 2: Resilient (constitution). This brings your Con up to 18 and gives you proficiency on constitution saving throws, allowing you to keep concentration much more easily.

Option 3: Charismatic Leader. This doesn't do anything particularly unique to your character, but it's a super strong feat in general (second best feat in the game after medic, hands down), and you have the charisma for it.

[Witty Username]

I your DM is cool with it, a level in Fighter, Paladin or cleric can net you heavy armor, that should sort out your AC issues. Past that I think you will be alright with a greatsword.

[Nidgit]

I'm going to keep plugging Mirror Image for the spell list (if it were me I'd replace Shatter), but this seems like a pretty good plan in general.

On the ASI:

As I see it, you have 3 good options.

Option 1: +1 Cha, +1 Con.Straightforward, and bumps two stats up to a new modifier, including your casting stat. More hit points and a higher spell save DC.

Option 2: Resilient (constitution). This brings your Con up to 18 and gives you proficiency on constitution saving throws, allowing you to keep concentration much more easily.

Option 3: Charismatic Leader. This doesn't do anything particularly unique to your character, but it's a super strong feat in general (second best feat in the game after medic, hands down), and you have the charisma for it.
Seconding this.

Another option could be to flip your Con and Dex so you have 15 Dex and 16 Con, then take Medium Armor Master and eventually Warcaster. It'd net you a slightly higher AC and weapon attack bonus should you need to make one.

+1/+1 seems like a fantastic way to go though.

[Rfkannen]

I really like the idea of flipping the con and dex! would allow more gishing ability which I like, and the dex is always good for initiative!

Mirror image seems like a great pick and Ill take it! what do people think of Nathair’s Mischief, would it be worth replacing something?

[LudicSavant]

I generally advise *against* Mirror Image at low levels. This is a point where second level spells should be deciding encounters in a big way.

Mirror image’s main feature is that it’s a non-concentration pre-buff— a feature that’s more noteworthy when the slots are relatively disposable, later on.

Also, Mirror Image is less valuable the higher your AC is, because the images are more likely to get “wasted.” (And if you’re gonna make a proper melee Bard, your AC should absolutely be high)