Build enabling or defining items?

[Waazraath]

Some builds are usually not worth it: those focussing using specific (underpowered) weapons or fighting styles, or using cantrips. But: some items are so good they make a playstyle possible. I made a small list below, I was wondering if I was missing anything. Thoughts?

Throwing builds: a bit better with the added fighting style and maneuver in Tasha's, and with the Arteficer infusion, but bar the latter, a throwing build really needs a returning weapon to function properly at higher levels. There are two:
- Dwarven Thrower (DMG)
- Arcane Propulsion arm (Eberron)

Cantrips are usually not worth it as a default, unless you are a Warlock with EB. Enter:
- illusionist's bracelets (Ravnica). Recast a cantrip as a bonus action, making cantrips worth it, especially for (sub)classes that add a stat modifier or the like to spell damage, and maybe enables builds which target an area like Sword Burst. A Warlock who doubles its damage output is of course very strong (but was already viable without)

The sling is usually a very weak weapon, but Theros items make it viable:
- Two-Birds Sling (Theros): make another attacks if a second target is within 10 ft (potentially doubling attacks!)
- Sling Bullets of Althemone: not per se needed for a sling build, also cause they are 4+1d4 items that are 1 use, but especially the no save stun is very strong (bypasses even legendary resistances).

Unarmed or natural weapons fighting: of course, this was already viable for certain classes (monk, moon druid), BUT, for others you need a way to bypass resistance vs non-magical attacks. Solutions:
- Eldritch Claw Tattoo (Tasha)
- insigna of claws (HotDQ)

Honorary mentions: items that are not per se needed for a specific weapon, but who improve your build a lot if you focus on 'em:

Dagger:
- Rakdos Riteknife (Ravnica): +1 and max 5d4 extra damage per hit! And other stuff as well.
Whip:
-Dyrrs Tentacle Whip (Eberron) +2, 1d6 psychic damage, and no save stun on a natural 20.

[Amnestic]

Mizzium's Apparatus (Uncommon, Ravnica) gives a properly built caster (Knowledge Cleric 1/Star Druid 2/Wizard X) complete pseudo-unlimited access to three full spell lists so long as they've got the appropriate slot level, and since you're MCing 3 full casters there's no loss of slot progression, just spells known - which you don't care about, because your apparatus deals with them for you.

[newbie padawan]

Some builds are usually not worth it: those focussing using specific (underpowered) weapons or fighting styles, or using cantrips. But: some items are so good they make a playstyle possible. I made a small list below, I was wondering if I was missing anything. Thoughts?

Throwing builds: a bit better with the added fighting style and maneuver in Tasha's, and with the Arteficer infusion, but bar the latter, a throwing build really needs a returning weapon to function properly at higher levels. There are two:
- Dwarven Thrower (DMG)
- Arcane Propulsion arm (Eberron)

Cantrips are usually not worth it as a default, unless you are a Warlock with EB. Enter:
- illusionist's bracelets (Ravnica). Recast a cantrip as a bonus action, making cantrips worth it, especially for (sub)classes that add a stat modifier or the like to spell damage, and maybe enables builds which target an area like Sword Burst. A Warlock who doubles its damage output is of course very strong (but was already viable without)

The sling is usually a very weak weapon, but Theros items make it viable:
- Two-Birds Sling (Theros): make another attacks if a second target is within 10 ft (potentially doubling attacks!)
- Sling Bullets of Althemone: not per se needed for a sling build, also cause they are 4+1d4 items that are 1 use, but especially the no save stun is very strong (bypasses even legendary resistances).

Unarmed or natural weapons fighting: of course, this was already viable for certain classes (monk, moon druid), BUT, for others you need a way to bypass resistance vs non-magical attacks. Solutions:
- Eldritch Claw Tattoo (Tasha)
- insigna of claws (HotDQ)

Honorary mentions: items that are not per se needed for a specific weapon, but who improve your build a lot if you focus on 'em:

Dagger:
- Rakdos Riteknife (Ravnica): +1 and max 5d4 extra damage per hit! And other stuff as well.
Whip:
-Dyrrs Tentacle Whip (Eberron) +2, 1d6 psychic damage, and no save stun on a natural 20.

It’s easy to be overwhelmed by choice during character creation, and end up with something that looks mightily powerful, but turns out to be confused and directionless when taken for a spin. One of my favourite build is classic Half-Elf Bard.

Half-Elves’ +2 Cha feeds nicely into Bardic spellcasting, and their other two +1 ability score improvements should be spent on Str and Con. Pick a mix of damage-dealing and immobilising cantrips and spells, such as Vicious Mockery and Hideous Laughter, and throw Detect Magic into your spell list if no one else in the party bothers. At level three, the College of Lore allows you to use Bardic Inspiration on yourself, letting you redo an attack roll, ability check, or damage roll that didn’t go your way – especially useful for this low-AC, low-HP class.

[dafrca]

One of my favourite build is classic Half-Elf Bard.

Half-Elves’ +2 Cha feeds nicely into Bardic spellcasting, and their other two +1 ability score improvements should be spent on Str and Con. Pick a mix of damage-dealing and immobilising cantrips and spells, such as Vicious Mockery and Hideous Laughter, and throw Detect Magic into your spell list if no one else in the party bothers. At level three, the College of Lore allows you to use Bardic Inspiration on yourself, letting you redo an attack roll, ability check, or damage roll that didn’t go your way – especially useful for this low-AC, low-HP class.
I have not tried this yet, but it does sound like an interesting build to run. :smallsmile:

[tokek]

Mizzium's Apparatus (Uncommon, Ravnica) gives a properly built caster (Knowledge Cleric 1/Star Druid 2/Wizard X) complete pseudo-unlimited access to three full spell lists so long as they've got the appropriate slot level, and since you're MCing 3 full casters there's no loss of slot progression, just spells known - which you don't care about, because your apparatus deals with them for you.

Its a very good item but its more limited than it looks at first glance.

It only permits spells with a casting time of one action. A lot of the time you would want to have other spells available, you don't get them this way.

It has an explicit requirement for spell components - despite being an arcane focus. Specific beats general. So at the very least you need a hand free for a component pouch which can get awkward and can leave you with difficult choices between a spell boosting item (magic item) or casting using this. This is mostly an issue when holding a shield but if you multi-class into cleric you probably do want the extra AC.

But most of all even with expertise the difficulty of the Arcana checks scales up faster than you bonus to make it. With expertise you gain +2 every 4 levels but your spell slots go up and the Arcana DC of your highest spell slot goes up by +4 per 4 levels. As you get into tier 3 play you start to find this is pretty unreliable and wasting those high level slots is painful. At level 11 with max Int you will have +13 to Arcana but will need a DC 22 check to use your 6th level slot as you want, it gets worse and by level 17 you need DC 28 but still only have +17. Those odds are not great unless you can get a friendly artificer to help you out, its a good reason to go Scribes Wizard as your level 14 feature helps out just as the math is really beginning to work against you.

I have a character with Mizzium Apparatus and the flexibility is fantastic but is more for having every single low level spell without having to use your limited number of prepared spells on it than to use for high level slots. Also it sneakily will be great when they hit level 14 scribes and when they blank most of their spell book they will be able to use it to still cast spells.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I strongly dislike (as a matter of principle) "specific builds" in general. Saying at level 1 that "I'm a glaive fighter" where fighting with !glaive harshes your mellow is, to me, treating the character like a playing piece rather than a person. So the idea of build enabling and defining items irritates me because both demand that there exists this build in abstract space and anything else doesn't work.

It's one reason I strongly dislike the "import <character X from other media> into D&D" concept--you're not building a character who exists organically in the world, you're forcing them into a pre-determined mold whose parameters aren't setting-attuned anyway.

This is entirely subjective, but I will never make promises as a DM that you'll find one of these items. At all. Because items have to first make sense in-universe and in the course of the campaign. Make a character with the presupposition you'll find any particular item (not some item, but a particular item) and you'll likely be disappointed.

For something like a throwing build, I'd rather homebrew fighting styles or features to support it directly in-class rather than trying to rely on particular items. And the Mizzim Apparatus is a hard no. First because it comes from one particular setting, and second because it's horribly borked to begin with.

[Amnestic]

But most of all even with expertise the difficulty of the Arcana checks scales up faster than you bonus to make it. With expertise you gain +2 every 4 levels but your spell slots go up and the Arcana DC of your highest spell slot goes up by +4 per 4 levels. As you get into tier 3 play you start to find this is pretty unreliable and wasting those high level slots is painful. At level 11 with max Int you will have +13 to Arcana but will need a DC 22 check to use your 6th level slot as you want, it gets worse and by level 17 you need DC 28 but still only have +17. Those odds are not great unless you can get a friendly artificer to help you out, its a good reason to go Scribes Wizard as your level 14 feature helps out just as the math is really beginning to work against you.

That's what the Star Druid levels are for.

Part of their level 2 feature:



Dragon. A constellation of a wise dragon appears on you. When you make an Intelligence or a Wisdom check or a Constitution saving throw to maintain concentration on a spell, you can treat a roll of 9 or lower on the d20 as a 10.

And why I said "pseudo"-unlimited, since the trick relies on wild shape uses, but at 2 per SR/LR and with the constellation lasting 10 minutes each you won't be struggling too much, probably.

By using dragon constellation your minimum arcana roll is 10, plus whatever your arcana score is. To take your examples - Level 11, +13 to beat DC22 is guaranteed since the lowest end score you can get is 23. At level 17 you've got a 50/50 chance of missing but a single boost to your arcana score (Guidance, artificer as noted, a magic item that boosts skills like Stone of Good Luck which is also Uncommon) makes it guaranteed again, and by 17th level chances are you'll have a way to get that help. Since you've only got 1 9th level slot a day, you only need that extra boost once too.

[dafrca]

It's one reason I strongly dislike the "import <character X from other media> into D&D" concept--you're not building a character who exists organically in the world, you're forcing them into a pre-determined mold whose parameters aren't setting-attuned anyway.

Sorry PhoenixPhyre but I am having an old man moment, I am unsure I understand what you mean by "import <character X from other media> into D&D"? Is this like when they want to play Harry Potter or Conan or something else?

I want to follow the conversation so figure I would ask. :smallsmile:

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sorry PhoenixPhyre but I am having an old man moment, I am unsure I understand what you mean by "import <character X from other media> into D&D"? Is this like when they want to play Harry Potter or Conan or something else?

I want to follow the conversation so figure I would ask. :smallsmile:

Correct. D&D does D&D. It's not a generic fantasy character emulator, and trying to use it as such only brings heartbreak and blaming the system.

[tokek]

By using dragon constellation your minimum arcana roll is 10, plus whatever your arcana score is. To take your examples - Level 11, +13 to beat DC22 is guaranteed since the lowest end score you can get is 23. At level 17 you've got a 50/50 chance of missing but a single boost to your arcana score (Guidance, artificer as noted, a magic item that boosts skills like Stone of Good Luck which is also Uncommon) makes it guaranteed again, and by 17th level chances are you'll have a way to get that help. Since you've only got 1 9th level slot a day, you only need that extra boost once too.

OK gotcha.

Its not suddenly my favourite build and the inherent limits of the Mizzium Apparatus were more apparent for me in play than I thought they would be on paper but it works well when it works. The 8th and 9th level slots are initially unreliable but yes it may be worth a second action to use guidance to help with that.

[Waazraath]

This is entirely subjective, but I will never make promises as a DM that you'll find one of these items. At all. Because items have to first make sense in-universe and in the course of the campaign. Make a character with the presupposition you'll find any particular item (not some item, but a particular item) and you'll likely be disappointed.


Fair enough, as a player I would like my DM to tells me something like this during session 0. Personally, I'm not in favour of builds requiring a specific weapon either, neither as DM or as player. But at the same time, I like many concepts to work, without a few being obviously much weaker. In e.g. campaigns that start at level 15 and where players can pick their own items, a list like this might help people to play a concept that normallly isn't seen that much at the table.


@Amnestic: nice addition, that apparatus!


Oh, and forgot to mention in the OP: I ignored sentient items and artifacts, cause imo they are beyond 'normal' items.

[Amechra]

This thread actually made me stop and look more deeply at building around throwing weapons. And now I want to play a Kensei¹ who specializes in fighting with an irresponsible number of knives. It turns out that having a single weapon enable both Kensei Shot and Agile Parry is pretty amazing. Is it as good as using a longbow? No, but life isn't always about picking the best options.

¹ With Thrown Weapon Fighting and a dagger with Returning Weapon infused to it, because you have to commit to a gimmick fighting style if it's going to be worth it.

[dafrca]

Sorry PhoenixPhyre but I am having an old man moment, I am unsure I understand what you mean by "import <character X from other media> into D&D"? Is this like when they want to play Harry Potter or Conan or something else?

I want to follow the conversation so figure I would ask. :smallsmile:

Correct. D&D does D&D. It's not a generic fantasy character emulator, and trying to use it as such only brings heartbreak and blaming the system.

Ah ok, in that case I agree 100% with you. I found many times the importing of characters and or whole parts of other story worlds (or media as you referred to it) can have a real unbalancing impact on a D&D game.

Thanks for the clarification. :smallsmile:

[Foolwise]

Dragonhide Belt on every monk build post-Fizban's

[Witty Username]

Monks get crazy if they get a belt of cloud?(The 29 one) Giant strength. Four attacks with a +9 strength bonus is freaky, and grappling goes suddenly good.

[3SecondCultist]

Gloves of Soul Catching (from Candlekeep Mysteries) redefines every Monk build. It turns an already good class into a god-tier frontliner. Automatic 20 Con and the ability to deal an extra 2d10 force damage per hit and heal the amount of force damage dealt? Alternatively you can give yourself advantage on an attack, save, or ability check on your next turn.

In practice, that's at least an extra 6d10 force damage being dealt every turn, with the Monk healing the same amount for no extra action cost. Talk about efficiency. :smalltongue:

[Foolwise]

I would hope a legendary weapon would be build defining! Sad is the legendary weapon that can't even enable the player's build.

[Valmark]

Monks get crazy if they get a belt of cloud?(The 29 one) Giant strength. Four attacks with a +9 strength bonus is freaky, and grappling goes suddenly good.

To add to this, I feel like all items that set your stat at a fixed value should count- they can greatly help a build out. That said, unless you can guarantee the drops you probably aren't building around them.

[Hael]

Fizbans has a new legendary magic item thats build defining.. Ruby Weave Gem.. Basically allows you to ignore material components up to 1500 gp, and you can use your spell slot to cast a spell from any spell list and then change it per LR.

That’s crazy powerful. Druid Simulacrums? Thorn builds with shadow of moil? Bladesingers with spirit guardians? Hexblades with find greater steed? Also allows multiclasses to get access to high lvl spell selections.

[Arkhios]

Ruby of the Warmage. Very useful for any spellcaster who also wields a weapon or two, or a weapon and a shield (if they're not a paladin or cleric).

[KorvinStarmast]

Correct. D&D does D&D. It's not a generic fantasy character emulator, and trying to use it as such only brings heartbreak and blaming the system. Yeah. My bard isn't from any other place than the game we are playing. Dilligas Husty (Her friends call her Dil, her enemies call for help!) is a sailor on the seas of inexorable fate and is known/styled as ...
the loveliest bard in the North country,
entertainer of royalty and ancient dragons,
pop artist and song writer whose material is performed on multiple planes of existence,
scourge of the slavers,
once-kissed by a vampire lord,
bane of yuan-ti oppressors of lizardfolk,
friend to the eldest dragon in the world and servant to the Leviathan's eternal song -

(It helps that the DM allows that, since the MacFurmidh cittern looks a bit like a guitar and is magical, as a performer she is able to shred a few riffs that sound a lot like Black Sabbath's opening to Iron Man, or the technique The Edge uses in Sunday Bloody Sunday during some of her noteworthy performances. A cover of something that sounds a lot like ZZ Top's La Grange is heard at less formal venues).
When she sings like Judy Collins of a lost love (Someday Soon variation) or of her friendship with an alcoholic gold dragon (a variation of Paul Rogers' / Bad Company Seagull) even the dragons weep genuine tears.

Was that cittern a build defining item?
Not really, she had no idea she'd find it, and she's still using it at level 17. We found it after we defeated a twisted demon, and she grew into it's possibilities as the adventures progressed. Her original lute is, along with her first short sword, still on display over the mantlepiece in a tavern at the port town where we started our adventures.

This character grew organically from chargen at level 1, through play, into who she is now. The story is what we did along the way, and it's a wild one! She always wanted to be a lady of fortune, and it appears that she may get her wish. We just commandeered an abandoned ship (rights of salvage!) while starting a revolt against the mind flayers as we destroyed their tentacle tower/seat of power ... and recruiting sailors has been successful.

Dragonhide Belt on every monk build post-Fizban's Heh, you read my mind. :smallbiggrin:

Monks get crazy if they get a belt of cloud?(The 29 one) Giant strength. Four attacks with a +9 strength bonus is freaky, and grappling goes suddenly good.
For my boing boing monk concept, first attempted during a one shot, I need a belt of giant strength or ogre gauntlets, and a ring of jumping.

Hilarity ensues.

[MrCharlie]

If I remember my rulings on how sneak attack interacts with great weapon fighting style, sunblades are build defining for certain rogue builds, as a finesse two-handed weapon.

(Ditto for dual-bladed scimitars, but non-magic).

There are also items that are immensely, shockingly good and nearly needed for certain classes, such as warlock (single classed or heavy warlock) and rod of the pact keeper. If you look at the class, high level warlocks basically need one of those to keep their spells per day competitive with other casters, and deal with issues with days with fewer short rests than "expected".

There is also (quietly) a build defining pseudo-magic item in the oversized longbow, if it still uses STR to damage, and the DM lets the party use it.

Plus magic items that cast spells and thief rogues. Bargin bin wizards incoming.

I'd also like to quietly volunteer Mithral full-plate and bags of holding (and similar items), if the DM is using variant encumbrance.