Anyone play an echo knight?

[Odessa333]

Topic. I'm a 'forever DM' getting to be player in some of the Candle keep mysteries, and there's a lot of new subclasses since I MADE a character lol. My last fighter was Eldritch Knight, and I thought I'd try a Battle Master out finally, and well, there's a LOT more options now. Rune knights look interesting, echo knights, Samurais, Arcane archers, etc. I'm tempted by Rune and echo the most, and I've at least seen a played us Runes, but not echo. Curious to how it plays.

So far, she is a high elf, dex based fighter (rolled stats being 12 STR, 20 DEX, 18 CON, 10 INT, 14 WIS, 13 CHA) and her fighting style is 'mariner' (swim speed, climb speed, and +1 AC when not using a shield/heavy armor). Party is my fighter, a wizard, a melee warlock, a sorcerer, and a melee artificer. I've been having her do a 'master of weapons' thing so far, switching between a rapier and shield, two shorts swords, hang back with a long bow, climb up a wall and shoot with a crossbow, etc. Sea faring, fun loving sailor girl. Anywho, I've rambled long enough. I thought echo knight could be fun/interesting, and looking for feedback and/or people to talk to ;)

[Abracadangit]

I played an Echo Knight once, didn't get into high levels or anything, but it was a good time.

Aside from the combat benefits, it threw my DM for a loop because they kept forgetting that I had an at-will teleport that I could use to blink around, nipping a lot of exploration-type challenges in the bud. After a few instances, they finally remembered and planned accordingly, but someone with that ability can cake walk a lot of obstacles. I mean, sure, Druids and Warlocks get Misty Step early on, but at least it's costing them the spell slot, right. So there's a tactical decision there.

Something else to consider: it sounds like you're having a good time with your character's flavor & personality. Echo Knight is definitely fun, but it's made even better if you can come up with a hook to explain the magic double. You can always play it straight and do the whole something something it's-a-composite-of-selves-from-different-timelines thing, but part of the fun for me was fluffing it as my character's shadow, and he was this sort of kooky, good-natured vampire prince who could swap places with his shadow instantaneously. So your character's a sailor/mariner type, right? What would the hook be for the Echo, then? Maybe it's an exotic form of sea witchery, where you can conjure a double of yourself made out of seawater?

Of course, you don't have to do anything like that, but I get the vibe you like your character's RP concept. And if you can come up with a way to organically thread that concept with the Echo thing, it elevates the theme from just a subclass to an integral part of your character's lore, personality, and fighting style, and then you'll have that much more fun playing it.

[Bobthewizard]

I've played echo knights at levels 4-8 they are fun. They do amazingly well in the exploration phase of the game. At-will teleport can you into and out of a lot of trouble, and echo avatar is almost like at-will Arcane Eye.

For optimization, in combat you want to play your echo as a tank with you standing well behind it. Sentinel feat is the most important feat for this. Then if an enemy tries to bypass the echo, you can shut them down. They should have to waste an attack every round or two attacking the echo, which you just recreate the next round.

You want to avoid two-weapon fighting since you'll be using your bonus action almost every round to either create your echo or swap places with it. I'm a fan of GWM on this build and going strength, but if you like your build, you can do without that. You don't really need a shield as much since you should be having the echo take most of the attacks. And unleash incarnation gives you more chances to hit with the -5/+10.

Eventually, a three level dip in ancestral guardian provides good synergy.

[Spiritchaser]

I would… echo? The comment about sentinel. It really feels like a fundamental part of what an echo knight can do as a tank. I would be hesitant to build one without it.

Now: my experience with echo knight is purely been with an ancestral guardian/echo knight MC which is just a wonderful and tactically engaging ranged control tank against one, or perhaps two strong foes. It looks like you have a somewhat different starting point, but as long as you take sentinel and keep your bonus action free you should do ok.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would… echo? The comment about sentinel. It really feels like a fundamental part of what an echo knight can do as a tank. I would be hesitant to build one without it.

Now: my experience with echo knight is purely been with an ancestral guardian/echo knight MC which is just a wonderful and tactically engaging ranged control tank against one, or perhaps two strong foes. It looks like you have a somewhat different starting point, but as long as you take sentinel and keep your bonus action free you should do ok.

On this note, the Echo Knight excels at leveraging combat utility from your attacks. Ancestral Guardian taunts with your attacks, but there are other options you can look into as well like Battlemaster Maneuvers through Martial Adept, or the Slasher Feat with a glaive. Consider what different types of attack utility add to your Echo and how that might mess with an enemy's strategy.

[Contrast]

Echo knights are fun.

There are two comments I think I'd make based on what you've said though.

Firstly, have a discussion beforehand with your DM to make sure you're both on the same page about what the echo can and can't do. There's some debate but RAW echoes can fly but can't open doors for example. Will the echo get hit by AoE spells given its not a creature and might not be an object? Etc. Echo Knight is full of weird rules quirks.

Secondly, Echo Knight has fun stuff it can do but when I was playing it I felt it was a bit one note. Playing a Rune Knight I felt like I had a load of options and abilities whereas playing an Echo Knight it feels like I have one trick. Its a really good trick and you can get a lot of milage out of it but if jack of all trades has been the vibe you've been enjoying so far then something a bit more modular might be the way.

[sayaijin]

Firstly, have a discussion beforehand with your DM to make sure you're both on the same page about what the echo can and can't do. There's some debate but RAW echoes can fly but can't open doors for example. Will the echo get hit by AoE spells given its not a creature and might not be an object? Etc. Echo Knight is full of weird rules quirks.



So much this. The Echo Knight is up there with illusions as far as how often the DM needs to make rulings. It is fun, but it's also a bit of a headache.

There is a fairly comprehensive FAQ at this D&D Beyond link: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions

I highly encourage you to look through it. The implications of the Echo being an object aren't always obvious, and the fact that you attack from a different spot than your own location can mess with certain rules.

[Dualswinger]

I loved my echo knights I've played.

One was able woman who didn't wear amor! Caused a few exclamations of shock when I said I had 8 AC. I said armour chafes! Just let my echo do all the fighting.

THe second I played was a goblin chieftain that, instead of echoes, just summoned disposable minions from offscreen.

[dafrca]

There is a fairly comprehensive FAQ at this D&D Beyond link: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions.

Thank you for this link. :biggrin:

[da newt]

"Firstly, have a discussion beforehand with your DM to make sure you're both on the same page about what the echo can and can't do. There's some debate but RAW echoes can fly but can't open doors for example. Will the echo get hit by AoE spells given its not a creature and might not be an object? Etc. Echo Knight is full of weird rules quirks."

I absolutely agree with the above. The session zero discussions and agreements are vital to this subclass. Is it a solid object? Can it hover in space? Does it block movement? Can it be targeted by spells that say they target creatures? Does it look like a real person enough to fool creatures? Can it be ridden? etc.

I played an EK / AG and really enjoyed it (PAM, shield and spear, dueling). My PC always had his Echo with him. I did find that sentinel was very handy but that it didn't come into play nearly as often as I'd hoped. The tactical mobility was great.

[samcifer]

Here's a fun rp idea on an echo knight: the pc has a dead identical twin and, unable to cope with the lost sibling, thinks that their echo is the dead twin and they are somehow psychically linked to them.

[Hairfish]

Here's a fun rp idea on an echo knight: the pc has a dead identical twin and, unable to cope with the lost sibling, thinks that their echo is the dead twin and they are somehow psychically linked to them.

I stole a bit from the old movie Ladyhawke and had my echo knight be a married couple under a curse where only one of them could be "real" at a time. Whenever they used the switch places ability, the current PC would become the echo and the spouse would become the PC. If they'd gotten to the level where there were two echoes, I'd've added a (adult) child into the mix.

[Battlebooze]

Not yet, but for my DM's next campaign I have already rolled up a neon pink skinned Loxodon Echo Knight fighter with they Feylost background. The DM is fine with fluffing his echos as being bright pink cartoon Loxodon shapes.


His name is Stumpy Heffalump.

I can't wait to play him. :D

[Psyren]

One RP idea I haven't gotten to play with, but that my GM is on board with - rather than an echo of himself, the Knight is making portals. When he attacks through the Echo, he's sticking his weapon through the portal. I haven't decided between "Portal Knight" and "Wormhole Knight" yet but I can't wait to try it.

[Sillybird99]

I've played an echo knight for a few sessions so far at 3-4th level. It is really fun and tactical. Lot's of creative utility on and off the battlefield for a martial class. I haven't built mine with sentinel, and I doubt I'll take it. Most of the feat doesn't interact with your echo, which diminishes some of the fest's utility. Also, I like doing things different.

My echo-knight is a desert flavored earth genasi that manifests a sand-form echo of himself using sand from his homeland.

Other ideas I had considered were the dead twin thing mentioned above, being a reborn race and the echo being an echo of your past life, or playing a haunted one who is haunted by their echo (whether it is the spirit of someone you killed, an ancestor, or some cursed being). There is a lot of rp flavor potential with the subclass.

[Nod_Hero]

I played a Rabbitfolk Echo Knight (reflavored to Phase Knight) in our recent Curse of Strahd campaign and I had a really fun time.
The tactical options for this subclass added to the usual fighter stuff really add to the overall playability.

[Akkristor]

About to try out an Echo Knight in my IKRPG group. His Echo is going to be versions of himself he pulls in from alternate timelines.

[bsullivanp]

I played a Rabbitfolk Echo Knight (reflavored to Phase Knight) in our recent Curse of Strahd campaign and I had a really fun time.
The tactical options for this subclass added to the usual fighter stuff really add to the overall playability.

I am actually rolling an Echo Knight / Chronurgy Wiz Multiclass for a campaign starting this evening, so I'm excited to see how it plays. But from the onset, this build has a ton of flavor.

My hook is that he is a Temporal Sentinel - a master of time manipulation, which he uses to aid him in combat. The wizard spell selection will focus on things that slow down (slow), speed up (haste), stop (hold person), or shift time (mirror image) to help. The echoes will be his ability to pull shadows of himself from alternate timelines to help in battle, plus, with the Chronal Shift power from Chronurgy, he can also temporarily reverse time to alter the outcome of an action (thereby forcing a rerolling of a hit, crit, or spell save).

[Nod_Hero]

My hook is that he is a Temporal Sentinel - a master of time manipulation, which he uses to aid him in combat. The wizard spell selection will focus on things that slow down (slow), speed up (haste), stop (hold person), or shift time (mirror image) to help. The echoes will be his ability to pull shadows of himself from alternate timelines to help in battle, plus, with the Chronal Shift power from Chronurgy, he can also temporarily reverse time to alter the outcome of an action (thereby forcing a rerolling of a hit, crit, or spell save).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FamousScornfulCockroach-size_restricted.gif

[Sception]

I played an echo knight re-flavored as a sort of shadow-dancer/shadow-caster type character, with the 'echo' as the knight's independently animated shadow. The reflavoring informed the DM's decisions on some of the unclear aspects of the echo. No it couldn't pass as a human since it's visibly a shadow, no it didn't block movement through its space, no it couldn't fly since it needs to maintain contact with a surface that a shadow could be cast onto, but it could move vertically up walls & such, etc. None of that was RAW, but it did give the DM a narrative foundation to make table rulings where the RAW was opaque or counter-intuitive.

sadly the game didn't last very long, but the tactical abilities of the subclass were really something else. Plays very different from any other fighter. Almost like a melee warlock with a bunch of at-will magic abilities. Great tank with the Sentinel feat, felt almost OP at times. DM definitely needs to take it into account when designing encounters.

[arnin77]

If you go PAM plus Shield Master with an Echo Knight could you do the shove to knock an enemy down and then attack all from the Echo?

Asking for a theory build….

[Hairfish]

If you go PAM plus Shield Master with an Echo Knight could you do the shove to knock an enemy down and then attack all from the Echo?

Asking for a theory build….

Depends on your DM's interpretation of how the "shield bash" bonus action can be timed. Some might require the full Attack action first, some might only require one attack out of the Attack action, some might allow you to use the bonus action first as long as you understand you either must Attack or forfeit your action.

The big thing I'd be concerned about is that doing pretty much anything interesting with your echo uses your bonus action, which will prevent you from using your shield bash.

[Bobthewizard]

If you go PAM plus Shield Master with an Echo Knight could you do the shove to knock an enemy down and then attack all from the Echo?

Asking for a theory build….

If I were taking both PAM and shield master, I'd probably go battle master or rune knight to add to those attacks, instead of echo knight, whose bonus action competes with the feats.

[arnin77]

Yeah I guess it doesn’t really work optimally but I was using a “Twin” idea similar to another poster, but with the Ancient Greek Gemini (Castor and Pollux) who were Spartans. So I was thinking a VHuman Spartan would be a spear and shield type and at level 4 could Round 1: BA Summon Echo + 2 attacks, Round 2: BA Shield Bash + 2 attacks with adv but I guess that depends if the echo survives and whether you can get a PAM reaction attack from your echo as well. I figured your BA PAM attack just gets replaced with an additional attack from the Echo and you’d still get Shield Master bonuses to Dex saves etc too (I think the echo gets your save bonuses?)

[Bobthewizard]

Yeah I guess it doesn’t really work optimally but I was using a “Twin” idea similar to another poster, but with the Ancient Greek Gemini (Castor and Pollux) who were Spartans. So I was thinking a VHuman Spartan would be a spear and shield type and at level 4 could Round 1: BA Summon Echo + 2 attacks, Round 2: BA Shield Bash + 2 attacks with adv but I guess that depends if the echo survives and whether you can get a PAM reaction attack from your echo as well. I figured your BA PAM attack just gets replaced with an additional attack from the Echo and you’d still get Shield Master bonuses to Dex saves etc too (I think the echo gets your save bonuses?)

I love the idea of a spear and shield pair of warriors, reforming the second after it is destroyed, and switching places to mess with people. I think you can make it work and have a lot of fun.

In my experience, mostly playing the echo in front with me 10' behind, my echo gets taken down a little over 50% of the time. I root for the enemy to attack the echo, though, since that's one less attack on the party.

So PAM or shield master would only get used less than half the time. I'd maybe take one, but likely wouldn't take both on an echo knight. The echo doesn't get your PAM reaction attack, but you could still use it for when they get past your echo and approach you.

I don't think the echo gets DEX saves since it's an object, but they are immune to a lot of effects - dragon's breath, fireball, eldritch blast. Firebolt specifically damages objects so it works, but most AOE damage spells don't.

Don't think of the echo as a creature. It's an object that occupies a 5' space. You can move it, swap places with it, or magically attack from its space, but it can't really do anything else. Since it's an object, someone can grapple it automatically. But that's fine. You just make a new one next round and that one disappears.

[arnin77]

Ah ok, thank you! Sounds like Sentinel is the feat to go with for Echo Knight as well. Did you use a pole arm mostly, standing 10’ behind?

I re read the echo Knight and it says it gets your saving throw bonuses if it has to make a saving throw (Fireball?), but I’m not sure if the shield master would apply to it. I was thinking it would be a good way to keep it alive on Fireballs etc since you could use your reaction to take no damage on a save.

[Sillybird99]

Sounds like Sentinel is the feat to go with for Echo Knight as well. Did you use a pole arm mostly...

IDK why it bothers me so much that people think either of these feats work so well on echo knight. I can't remember the last time I had a free bonus action as an echo-knight. Manifesting or teleporting is almost always the best thing you can do, and it's usually manifesting because the things die so frequently. Admittedly, I have the shield spell on mine, so my reaction is not always free, making sentinel much less useful on my build. But, the whole feat doesn't even apply to the echo, and that's assuming your echo is still up.

I guess the effectiveness of either could depend on party comp and DM, but i've played echo knight under 5-6 DMs and with various parties and never found myself wishing I had either sentinel or PAM. I just cringe at the thought of how many players will take these feats and be disappointed when they can't do the cool things they built for.

[arnin77]

I believe sentinel would stop the movement of the enemy, keeping it beside your echo if it tries to move away but gets hit by the OoA enabled by the echos ability?

[Bobthewizard]

Ah ok, thank you! Sounds like Sentinel is the feat to go with for Echo Knight as well. Did you use a pole arm mostly, standing 10’ behind?

I think Sentinel works well in the right party. If you have other melee characters, it might not be worth it since it won't trigger much. In a party that likes movement, likes to keep enemies off of them, with a DM that let's NPCs take AOO, it can be great. Some DMs never let their NPCs take AOO, so then the feat is wasted.

Personally, I like GWM on an echo knight, but that's a different aesthetic than what you are making.


I re read the echo Knight and it says it gets your saving throw bonuses if it has to make a saving throw (Fireball?), but I’m not sure if the shield master would apply to it. I was thinking it would be a good way to keep it alive on Fireballs etc since you could use your reaction to take no damage on a save

Interesting. It says it's an image of you but doesn't specifically say it's an object. I guess an image is an object by RAW so that's how people talk about it on here. Which would mean it is unaffected by fireball.

But it would make sense if things that target creatures could affect it. Maybe it would work better to consider it a creature that can do nothing except what is described in the text. The line about using your saving throws makes it seem like that might be what they meant. Is there anything that requires an object to make a saving throw?

I've always played that it takes up its space. But if it's just an image, maybe that is wrong too. Enemies maybe could walk right through it, risking an AOO if they then move more than 5' away.

[Sillybird99]

Link (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions)
This link includes the RAW interactions of the echo in most circumstances. The echo is an object. It is subject to aoe spell damage, and fireball does affect unworn/uncarried objects.

[arnin77]

I think it’s considered an object from what I’ve read so far, but in re-reading I don’t think Fireball actually affects it except it ignites it on fire? It’s definitely a very confusing subclass but I did a “what type of fighter are you” quiz and got echo Knight so here I am lol. I’m glad the OP started this thread; I’ve read others and a lot of discussion is about rulings on the Echo, so I find it interesting to hear others opinions on its build.

I’m hesitant about GWM because I don’t see a way to improve the -5 to hit within the subclass like Battlemaster. But if it worked for you then it must be doable, I’m sure other party members can help too etc.

I’m curious then, is Echo Knight best as a ASI build with a big weapon and no feats, just get to 20 strength and con ASAP?

[Sillybird99]

So far on mine, I've only taken ASI. I have plans to take crusher (at fighter 8) and GWM (at fighter 12). The advantage after a crit with crusher will synergize well with GWM. Other than that I'll just save GWM for attacks with advantage or against low AC targets. A lot of GWM echo knights take barbarian 2 for reckless attack.

But Echo knights can do a lot of cool things without needing to rely on feats. Prioritizing str for hit and damage, and maxing con for hp and unleash incarnation uses is about as optimal as you can get with a straight echo night IMO. Fighters will get plenty of opportunities for other feats to round out defenses or odd ability scores or noncombat utility. And sentinel isn't bad. I'd just like to see players focus on ASI and get a few levels of experience before deciding to take it as a feat without a good understanding of how practical it will be for them. Echo Knight is a really strong subclass and super fun. I don't think it really needs optimization to be effective, and I think trying too hard to optimize it before having play experience will lead to disappointment fairly often because of how weirdly it interacts with the game.

[Bobthewizard]

Link (https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/fighter/64918-an-echo-knight-faq-frequently-asked-questions)
This link includes the RAW interactions of the echo in most circumstances. The echo is an object. It is subject to aoe spell damage, and fireball does affect unworn/uncarried objects.

Your link says fireball does not effect the echo. It's orange in the spell interaction section. I think fireball only affects unworn/uncarried items if they are flammable.


So far on mine, I've only taken ASI. I have plans to take crusher (at fighter 8) and GWM (at fighter 12).

Crusher/GWM is a great combo for an echo knight. Good suggestion.

[Sillybird99]

Your link says fireball does not effect the echo. It's orange in the spell interaction section. I think fireball only affects unworn/uncarried items if they are flammable.

Ah, faulty assumption on my part. I should have searched for that specifically.

[Nicomo Cosca]

I've been playing an Echo night for over a year now, but I'm not sure how useful my experience would be as we have homebrewed it a bit.

I'm playing an ancient warforged called the Crimson Queen who was awoken from her slumber by a young artisan called Ezra. Ezra had her soul absorbed into the machine - essentially creating two entities sharing one body. Ezra is the echo and is in many ways my main character (The Queen is a much more stoic protector in their evolving mother-daughter relationship). Ezra is a spirit of radiant light and we re-flavored her so she has her own stat line (dex instead of strength and charisma instead of constitution) and made all her damage radiant. When Ezra is not active she is sent to the Dark Space, which is a bit like the endless dark of the upside-down from Stranger Things and where time passes much more slowly. Playing what is essentially an immortal spirit of light and life, who may be some kind of prophesied avatar of a myth surrounding the Last Firebird and who has a lot of mental anguish has been awesome.

Mechanically all of the above changes make an already powerful class potentially very strong indeed, but due to RP considerations like Ezra not liking going back to the dark space, having to often hide what she is and the Queen being overly protective I think I'm able to balance it out quite well.

It's been a hell of a lot of fun to play!