DM with Autism needs help: What do Lords talk about!?!

[Bjarkmundur]

I do my best to stay away from complicated social scenes in ttrpgs, since I'm horrible at running them. Interactions between a couple of NPCs and the players is no problem, but my ASD really starts to show when it comes to figures of authority, figures of power and large gatherings.

I made a super cool and fun skill Challenge, but I need some social fluff to fit it in the narrative. The scene is a gathering of local Lords, talking about Lord stuff. Could you help me with a few lines that might come from different lords that Might start some sort of conversation?

Thank you in advance, the session is tomorrow!

The scene has two main characters, and the skill Challenge revolves around them. Thumanor is our good Lord and the party's benefactor. Davis is the bad Lord whose only goal is to undermine and generally socially ruin Thumanor. I have that interaction pretty figured out, and it's the party's job to work against Davis's plan with a skill challenge. But to make this feel like a large gathering that takes up an entirw day, I need some lordly conversation that includes the other Lords, that generally has nothing to do with our two main Lords.

Ideas:

- The problem with some wolves in the woods. Although they have nothing to do with Davis or Thumanor, Davis uses the opportunity to say that if the problem was in his region of rulership, it would be no problem.
- Concern with a band of Orcs in the North, which Davus mentions won't be defeated by reading books (Thumanor is a scholar)
- Something that lords talk about that isn't just plot hooks? Like, how does gossip work? x'D
- What would small talk in this scenario look like?
- I feel so silly not knowing what these guys would actually takk about. I mean, I've read enough books that I should know :'(

[Yakk]

I'd have lots of ridiculous joke gossip.

* Sports (jousting; will William the Tall beat Scott the Green? They can wager and argue. Lots of obscure references, obsessive, about previous jousting. Completely illogical chains of why one would beat the other; like, William's family tends to win in the Autumn before the Oak loses its leaves.)

* Scandal (the bishop's "butler" if you know what I mean eyebrow wiggle)

* The difficulty one Lord had in buying polearms from a shop in the city. https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0136.html - you can literally randomly jump ahead in that story and quote a line very once in a while.

* An upcoming harvest festival. Talking about food. Whose pie is the best, disagreeing.

* An old disagreement about who owns the mill in the old wood. Long fallen to ruin.

* Wounds and recovery. "How is cousin Edgar doing? He still limping?"

* Grumbling about taxes. Both collecting them and passing them up. Complaining that peasants don't know how good they have it and aren't paying their fair share. Buncha layabouts.

[Abracadangit]

Great idea for a social encounter! I love the characters.

Can I get a little more info on what exactly the players' skill challenge is, to outtalk Davis? Right now I'm not entirely sure what their goal is, in regards to the conversation and Davis' machinations.

Some topics for nobles to talk about:

--Economics, why not! Boring castle-town administration stuff. For example, Thumanor can talk about how a deficient budget could be easily remedied by X and Y tax policy, and Davis can be all "Are you sure that would work for a town of your size? How can one really be sure the budget is truly deficient," etc, etc.
--Stereotypically opulent noble pursuits. Hunting expeditions, getting a self-portrait commissioned by a painter, recent operas they've seen. Thumanor saw Nartherion's Lament, Davis saw it with the original elvish cast, which is "really the only way to see it."
--Be a little self-referential in a tongue-in-cheek way, they can talk about different adventuring parties they've hired in the past. Thumanor says he doesn't really care about what the adventurers can do, what matters is a strong moral compass and resourcefulness. Davis only hires the strongest mercenaries with the shiniest magical weapons, he hasn't heard of the guild Thumanor uses but he's sure they're reliable in a pinch.

I like the idea of Davis being more passive-aggressive and subtly abusive than outright belligerent or contesting Thumanor's abilities. In my head, when nobles try to take another noble down, it's rarely with explicit belittling or challenges -- it's achieved with tiny pot shots here and there, small snips and snaps calculated to affect public opinion more than the target themselves. Davis isn't really trying to sway Thumanor's opinion, he's after the collective opinion of everyone else in the room. So long as he keeps it up with the passive-aggressive comments and little digs at Thumanor, Thumanor will keep being the better man and not responding, but after a while, other nobles will start subconsciously associating that dynamic with weakness, right? If Thumanor was REALLY in control, he'd tell Davis to eat it, so why doesn't he? Of course that's not really true, but that's how people think, and Davis is good at that.

For what it's worth, your conversation prompts are great too. You're better at this than you think! Sorry for running on for so long, I like social encounters and you've got a great foundation.

One more tiny idea -- a good transition for the players to get involved is for Davis to cite some false information that one of the party members knows is unequivocally false, no knowledge/Insight check needed. The relevant player can chime in with "Actually, that's not how illusion spells work," and now Davis already has a reason to hate them, while at the same time, the party is putting on blast that Davis can't really be trusted, and is saying whatever he needs to say to make Thumanor look bad.

You got this!

[MoiMagnus]

Some ideas:

(1) Lords that didn't met in a long time will be talking about what they did during those years, and talk about "the good old times" when they were young together. Alternatively, lords that never met but only heard about each others will try to socialise, maybe awkwardly, or they might be helped by a common friend.

(2) Local politics: wolves, taxes, bandits, new public project, castle renovation, new bishop at the church, etc. Or maybe an even better example: Marriage! There is always someone important about to be married, or recently married, etc. Are they a good match? Who's step-parent hates the bribe? Who will be / was the ceremony? Is the wife/future wife rumoured to be pregnant? What are the political implication of this marriage? Etc

(3) Hobbies. Hunting (what they caught last time, etc), banquets (when is the next time?), art (what beautiful sculpture they had made for them).


Like, how does gossip work? x'D

The point of gossip (and many other small talks) is to share an emotion with other peoples. You've learn an info that make you angry/envious/horrified/surprised/lustful/etc, but you feel the need to share this info with someone so that you can experience this emotion again together with someone else.

Good luck for your session!

[Unoriginal]

I do my best to stay away from complicated social scenes in ttrpgs, since I'm horrible at running them. Interactions between a couple of NPCs and the players is no problem, but my ASD really starts to show when it comes to figures of authority, figures of power and large gatherings.

I made a super cool and fun skill Challenge, but I need some social fluff to fit it in the narrative. The scene is a gathering of local Lords, talking about Lord stuff. Could you help me with a few lines that might come from different lords that Might start some sort of conversation?

Thank you in advance, the session is tomorrow!

The scene has two main characters, and the skill Challenge revolves around them. Thumanor is our good Lord and the party's benefactor. Davis is the bad Lord whose only goal is to undermine and generally socially ruin Thumanor. I have that interaction pretty figured out, and it's the party's job to work against Davis's plan with a skill challenge. But to make this feel like a large gathering that takes up an entirw day, I need some lordly conversation that includes the other Lords, that generally has nothing to do with our two main Lords.

Ideas:

- The problem with some wolves in the woods. Although they have nothing to do with Davis or Thumanor, Davis uses the opportunity to say that if the problem was in his region of rulership, it would be no problem.
- Concern with a band of Orcs in the North, which Davus mentions won't be defeated by reading books (Thumanor is a scholar)
- Something that lords talk about that isn't just plot hooks? Like, how does gossip work? x'D
- What would small talk in this scenario look like?
- I feel so silly not knowing what these guys would actually takk about. I mean, I've read enough books that I should know :'(

I have ideas, but I think two key points of context are needed:

1) why are the lords meeting and talking avout those things? If they're all beholden to the same ruler and have to report working together, it's very different from indepent neighbors being at the same diplomatic meeting, or if the meeting is officially unrelated to politics but the lords can use it to score informal points and alliances

2) what do people expect the meeting to do? If the lords have to come up with decisions together here and then, and have to go through it, it's far different from a "I'm informing you due to politeness but I'm not expecting anything" meeting.

[Bjarkmundur]

You guys are wonderful people! ❤️

I'll read these later, until then, here's the first draft of the Skill Challenge, if anyone's interested!



Skill Challenge:
The Lord of Davis of Kamer Castle is using every opportunity to undermine Thumanor's Lordship. Thumanor is a scholar and a poet, but not much of a verbalist. He asks you to speak up on his behalf, or otherwise divert the conversation away from him.

Difficulty: 4 successes before 3 failures

Every round the DM checks on Thumanor's social status within the group. If it is poor it counts as a failure. If the group manages to stop Davis's cutting words or elevate Thumanor's social status, it counts as a success.

Suggested Methods of Success:
- When pressed, you can argue the Thumanor's points for him by opposing Davis's Charisma check with your own
- You can Interrupt Davis mid-sentence with your force of personality and a successful Charisma check.
- You can start an academic conversation that works in Thumanor's favor with an Intelligence check.
- You can monitor the group of lords over time with a Wisdom check and give Thumanor subtle hints on what topics to press with each Lord.
- You can make a tall tale about Thumanor or his ancestors with a successful Charisma check.
-

[Slipjig]

It depends: are we talking about people who are actually the Lord of their domain? Or are we talking about a gathering of Lords and Ladies who are the children of actual title holders? If it's the latter, they will probably engage in discussions like any other group of rich teenagers/twentysomethings: sports (probably hunting, in a fantasy setting), fashion, who is courting (or sleeping with) whom, the prospects of various squires for being knighted, who is in and out of favor with various higher-ranking people, etc. More serious ones might be talking about their charitable endeavors, their upcoming expedition against the bandits in the wood, or preparations for an upcoming festival that they have been placed in charge of.

If we're talking about Lords who are the actual title holders, it will depend on that Lord's interests. Some will take a very active role in the day-to-day running of their domain, and will spend their time discussing supply chain problems, or the harvest, or the weather (the weather is a big deal when your income comes from farming). If military endeavors are on the horizon, that will almost certainly be the focus of conversation: raising levies and training troops, which of your bannermen will actually show up and which will make excuses, and potential avenues of march by the invading side. For the more politically-inclined, there will probably be a lot of the same discussions as the young people mentioned above, but with more of a focus on "how can this be turned to our advantage" as opposed to simple gossip.

Hope this helps! Good luck!

[Abracadangit]

You guys are wonderful people! ❤️

I'll read these later, until then, here's the first draft of the Skill Challenge, if anyone's interested!



Skill Challenge:
The Lord of Davis of Kamer Castle is using every opportunity to undermine Thumanor's Lordship. Thumanor is a scholar and a poet, but not much of a verbalist. He asks you to speak up on his behalf, or otherwise divert the conversation away from him.

Difficulty: 4 successes before 3 failures

Every round the DM checks on Thumanor's social status within the group. If it is poor it counts as a failure. If the group manages to stop Davis's cutting words or elevate Thumanor's social status, it counts as a success.

Suggested Methods of Success:
- When pressed, you can argue the Thumanor's points for him by opposing Davis's Charisma check with your own
- You can Interrupt Davis mid-sentence with your force of personality and a successful Charisma check.
- You can start an academic conversation that works in Thumanor's favor with an Intelligence check.
- You can monitor the group of lords over time with a Wisdom check and give Thumanor subtle hints on what topics to press with each Lord.
- You can make a tall tale about Thumanor or his ancestors with a successful Charisma check.
-

No, YOU'RE WONDERFUL

I love this whole framework -- a virtuous but not-so-charismatic noble is taking the players as a retinue to a nobles' luncheon or council meeting or whatever, and the players have to help him look good while the Machiavellian baron constantly tries to make the good noble look bad. It's creative, it's fun, and it lends itself to this fun back-and-forth rhythm that makes for a great social encounter.

I have this searingly controversial opinion where social encounters can be made MORE fun by giving players concrete options that they can take, instead of just improvising with checks and whatnot. I am aware that not everyone agrees with that school of thought, but in a sort of tense social encounter like this one, it can make for some interesting options. We could pare down the player options (not in a bad way!) to end up with a tighter, cleaner list of what their options are, with pluses/minuses for each. Let's say the encounter follows a simple rhythm -- party's turn, then other noble's turn, then Davis' turn, then repeat. With that in mind, here are some examples of what I'm talking about:


Call Out Davis. Whenever it is Davis' turn to speak, he will always tell some lie, either magnifying his accomplishments or subtly minimizing those of Thumanor. In order to catch Davis in a lie, one player must opt to roll a check. They have two options:
--Fact Check. One player in the party may roll an Intelligence check (the kind of check is determined by the DM) to factually confirm that Davis is lying, against Davis' Charisma (Deception). If the lie is concerning a topic or subject that the character is intimately familiar with, they make the roll at advantage. If the player succeeds, they stop Davis mid-anecdote to inform everyone that the information is incorrect. The party gains 2 Successes. If the player fails, the party gains 1 Failure, as the character attempts to call Davis out but meanders aimlessly as they can't focus on the exact problem with the lie.
--Hunch. One player in the party may roll a Wisdom (Insight) check contested against Davis' Charisma (Deception), which cannot verify what is incorrect about Davis' lie, but can confirm that it is a lie. If the player succeeds, they stop Davis mid-anecdote to question the accuracy of the information, which causes Davis to promptly excuse away the lie and go quiet. If the check succeeds, the party gains no success, but Davis gets disadvantage on his Charisma (Deception) check next turn. If the player fails, there is no penalty.

Upsell Thumanor. When another noble speaks about a given topic, the DM rolls a d20. On a roll of 10 or higher, the topic is one where Thumanor excels, and one player in the party can make a low-DC Charisma (Persuasion) check to chime in with a story about how Thumanor is excellent at that thing. If the check succeeds, the party gains 1 Success, and if the check fails, there is no penalty.
If the DM's d20 roll is 9 or lower, the topic is one where Thumanor is actually not terribly strong. One player in the party can attempt a high-DC Charisma (Persuasion) check to upsell Thumanor despite the deficiency, or they can make a Charisma (Deception) check, contested against Davis' Wisdom (Insight) check, who is listening like a hawk for any kind of fibbing or faking. If the Persuasion check is successful, 1 Success, and if the check fails, there is no penalty. If the Deception check is successful, the party gains 2 Successes. If the check fails to Davis, the party gains 2 Failures as he mercilessly tears into the party and Thumanor.

Thumanor. When it is the party's/Thumanor's turn to speak, the party has two options.
--Compelling Story About Thumanor. One of the players can attempt a Charisma (Performance) check, to tell a story about Thumanor based on what they know, against a Wisdom (Insight) check made by the nobles at the table, collectively. If the check succeeds, the nobles warmly receive the story, and the party gains 1 Success. If the check fails, the story is coldly received, but there is no penalty.
--Encourage Thumanor. One of the players can prod Thumanor to try talking, who is admittedly shaky at public speaking, but can be emboldened by what has transpired thus far. Thumanor makes a Charisma (Persuasion) check, contested against a Wisdom (Insight) check made by the nobles at the table, collectively. If the players either a) successfully called out Davis via Intelligence or Wisdom or b) successfully upsold Thumanor, this check is made at advantage. However, if a) Davis' lie was successful, or b) Davis caught the party in a lie, then the check is made at disadvantage, with the disadvantage conditions superseding the advantage conditions. If Thumanor's check is successful, the party gains 2 Successes. If Thumanor's check is unsuccessful, the party gains 2 Failures.


Again -- if you like more freeform, people-do-what-they-want-when-they-want social stuff, then this probably isn't much help, ha ha. But even if you don't like the structure, I think there's something to be said for a system where "X Check confers this benefit but comes with this risk, while Y Check is relatively safe but won't net you any points," etc. Makes for an encounter where decisions have consequences.

Whatever you end up doing, best of luck! You'll do great.

[Bjarkmundur]

@Yakk
Yeah I'm stealing those! Thank you <3

@Abracadangit
Thumanor talking about budget and Davis talking it down is a great way to put Thumanor up as the good smart guy! After skimming the responses I'm wondering if I should make town function more like a city to make the politics more local, rather than lords from different regions. It puts all the politics within the party's reach and make sure the effects are immediate. If Davis manages to accrue a larger following than Thumanor the changes in the city will be instant.

But then again, if Davis is just the next Lord over, he might be trying to integrate Thumanor's lands into his own. I'll see which one I like better once I'm done reading everything :D

"Really the only way to see it" I died xD xD xD

Thanks for the encouragement. I know it was my own choice to put this scene in, but I'm still really stressed about getting it right!

I have tried both ways of running skill challenges, and it seems that more guidelines are better. The creative players will just ignore the suggested actions anyways, and they really help those players that might have a harder time getting into the narrative, or simply be having an off-day.

I love the idea of simulating a social situation by giving everyone a "turn" to speak, with different possible actions within a turn. I can't wait to compile everything on this thread into the final product!

I might even print out something like playing cards, with different actions described on each. That sounds like a lot of fun and would make a great precedent for social encounters in the future. It's something that might take a few tries to streamline, but the end product would really be worth it.

@Unoriginal
Let's say that these are Lords and Nobles from adjacent regions that meet every 9 tendays (every season) to exchange news and goings-on. It's been a tradition since the region was split into individual Lorddoms(?) a couple of hundred years back. It is supposed to be informal and nice, but like you said, there's always someone with an agenda.

It was originally stated to maintain the unity of the region, and is a great place to voice your concerns about regional matters.

Hope that helps!

@Slipjig
Domain! That's the word I was looking for! Yeah these are the actually power-holders from individual "states" of a larger country.

------

You guys really came through on this one. Thank you all so much!

[Chronos]

They talk about what the simple folk do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtoEniQdew).

[Unoriginal]

An idea that could be fun is that since Thumanor has brought adventurers to help him out, the other nobles could have brought someone with them.

Form the jester to the retired dungeon boss, there could be all kind of quirky people (on top of the involved nobles, who will likely be more memorable for the players if they stand out on their own in some way).

I'd advise you to make a list of traits for all the people involved, nobles or not, and have said trait perk up when relevant (ex: if the PCs bring up a past problem with a neighboring nation, Lord Darmor, who is strongly against trading with said nation, could agree in their sense, but if they try to gain time by keeping belaboring something frivolous, Chancellor Yott will cut them off because they are actually here to work).

[Bjarkmundur]

An idea that could be fun is that since Thumanor has brought adventurers to help him out, the other nobles could have brought someone with them.

Form the jester to the retired dungeon boss, there could be all kind of quirky people

I'll be sure to add some color to the event ^^

[Martin Greywolf]

I'll limit myself to speaking of historical lords and their discussions - we have a surprisingly good idea of what it was like, since the few records of such things did concern them.

The first step you must take is analyze what is their job, their social obligation and their hobbies.

1) The job

While a noble is most often associated with war, this is only a secondary role, sort of. What a lord would be doing most of the time is serving as judicial and administrative authority of his holdings, delegating some of these powers and keeping others. A lot of these would be delegated to lord's wife, especially if the lord had to go to war.

With this in mind, you have recent trials, interesting disputes they had to resolve and projects they undertook (from building castles to building mills) to talk about. Your imagination is the limit here, really, I recently read an entire thesis about judicial cases that sprung up when a river changed its usual course, which happened fairly often.

2) Social obligation

Talking of war and politics fit here, as well as dicsuccing marriages (if applicable in your world) and sharing rumours. An important point is that, because a lord is the judicial authority and his word has weight to it, claims towards him breaking said word are... a pretty big deal. It's more or less like publicly accusing a judge of being corrupt.

Similar reasoning applies to martial prowess. Not every lord is going to be martial arts expert, but a fair number of them will be, and all of them will be expected to be able to hold their own. As such, stories of past exploits are to be expected.

3) Hobbies

I mean, everyone has some, and the tolerance of them was greater than you might expect. Sure, being into flower arranging will get you weird looks, but it's not going to be a political suicide. And the richer the lord, the more extravagant they can be - there is at least one record of a duke importing an elephant to what is present day Slovakia in central Europe in late 14th century, and the king topping that by getting some giraffes.

[Catullus64]

Something I don't think anyone's brought up is that they might engage in contests of wordplay or recite poetry, possibly in ways that lean upon the political situation and subtext of the encounter. That kind of thing shows up all the time for historical aristocrats, though perhaps in slightly more public encounters than the one you're imagining. It's a mode of competition between elites in social settings where hitting each other with sharp objects wouldn't be appropriate.

[Yakk]

You guys are wonderful people! ❤️

I'll read these later, until then, here's the first draft of the Skill Challenge, if anyone's interested!



Skill Challenge:
The Lord of Davis of Kamer Castle is using every opportunity to undermine Thumanor's Lordship. Thumanor is a scholar and a poet, but not much of a verbalist. He asks you to speak up on his behalf, or otherwise divert the conversation away from him.

Difficulty: 4 successes before 3 failures

Every round the DM checks on Thumanor's social status within the group. If it is poor it counts as a failure. If the group manages to stop Davis's cutting words or elevate Thumanor's social status, it counts as a success.

Suggested Methods of Success:
- When pressed, you can argue the Thumanor's points for him by opposing Davis's Charisma check with your own
- You can Interrupt Davis mid-sentence with your force of personality and a successful Charisma check.
- You can start an academic conversation that works in Thumanor's favor with an Intelligence check.
- You can monitor the group of lords over time with a Wisdom check and give Thumanor subtle hints on what topics to press with each Lord.
- You can make a tall tale about Thumanor or his ancestors with a successful Charisma check.
-
So, X successes before Y failures is cute, but we can do better.

Have players take turns to do things. Players who choose to do nothing can do nothing, but you go around the table.

Ensure that one person cannot do everything. Much like a combat, a less competent ally is better than no ally at all. (If this isn't the case, you should throw out the skill challenge framework and just ask the most competent person to make a skill check; skill challenges are things complex enough that one person will find them nearly impossible.)

The default result is failure. So doing nothing moves you towards that.

I'd try to make the mechanics player-facing.

Maybe your initiative is an insight check (!). Break the skill challenge into rounds. During each round, present a number of things that happen; these things also have an initiative check. But the PCs are told about them even if they haven't happened yet; high insight means you predict it is going to happen and can preemit it if you choose (this often gives advantage).

Then go down the initiative order.

At the end of the round, count how many problems where solved, and how many where not solved.

Then proceed to the next round.

Rounds can be:

1. Introduction and arrival.
2. The meal. (where people sit matters! Here things are static, which adds to complications)
3. After meal discussion.
4. Departure.

In each round, have X complications happen for a complexity X problem. Things that failed the previous round spawn a new problem in the next round (you can pre-plan these). Harder problems might require more than one intervention (counting as 2 or more complications).

This makes the NPCs the protagonists. You don't dictate what the PCs do, just what they experience.

Each problem that is left after Departure results in an out-of-challenge complexity added (story impact). This is analgous to the "damage" you have taken after winning (or losing) a fight.

As each player gets to interact with one complication in each round, the social butterflies get to slay complications, while the rest try to help as best they can.

[Damon_Tor]

One of my favorite "social combat" scenarios was where one of the PCs (heir to a minor noble house) wanted to renegotiate a trade treaty with a more powerful lord. Basically, the more powerful lord controls the port and levy's taxes on goods that pass through to the interior. The more the port-lord takes in taxes the more expensive trade goods are for the people inland. Other lords on the roads between the port and our PCs noble house can and do levy taxes as well, compounding the problem.

So the challenge is to get each lord along the road to sign this treaty, with the port-lord as the "boss fight" so to speak. The more other lords have signed, the more likely the port-lord is to aquiese. The treaty would set limit tariffs of goods to help encourage trade inland and improve the economic standing of the whole region.

This is all set against a backdrop of a wedding feast and regional tournament where all the various lords will be gathered in one place. The players follow rumors, trade favors and make allies over the course of several days to try and get all the lords to agree to sign the treaty.

[AttilatheYeon]

Royals, Teams, etc.