Hexblade's Curse vs resistances

[MercCpt]

Hear me out here because I'm a bit of an idiot...

Pretend for a min you're level 20 and let us say you throw a level 3 fire ball into a room with a cursed target let's say you rolled a 30 and they resist the spell do you:
#1 +6 to the 30 making it 36 then half it so 18 or
#2 +6 to the 15 (halfed fire ball) making it 21

I only ask this because their is no techincal damage type for the curse and my question is whether or not it should be able to be resisted or is it a "fixed" damage.

[Greywander]

I believe it's the first one. All damage bonuses are applied first, then that damage is cut in half as a result of passing the save. The fact that it's a fixed amount of damage rather than a die roll is irrelevant. And usually when you add extra damage to something and it doesn't specify what damage type the extra damage is, it's usually the same damage type as the base damage. So in this case, the extra damage would be fire damage.

[RSP]

I actually think it’s the second one. The DC save is for the fireball damage, so, as I see it, the “save for half” shouldn’t affect damage from sources that aren’t the fireball spell.

Note: this has nothing to do with resistance, btw; saving for half isn’t the same thing as resistance. If a target with Fire Resistance failed the save, they’d take 15 damage from fireball and 6 damage from the Curse (which isn’t Fire damage. If a target with resistance to Fire passed the save l, they’d take 7 Fire damage from fireball and 6 damage from the Curse.

[Greywander]

I actually think it’s the second one. The DC save is for the fireball damage, so, as I see it, the “save for half” shouldn’t affect damage from sources that aren’t the fireball spell.
Here's the relevant text from Hexblade's Curse:

You gain a bonus to damage rolls against the cursed target. The bonus equals your proficiency bonus.
So it is Fireball damage. Hexblade's Curse isn't an extra damage source, it actually makes your Fireball stronger against the cursed target. That's how it works.

Compare this with, say, the Swarmkeeper Ranger's Gathering Swarm feature. With that feature, after you hit with an attack, you can then have the swarm deal additional piercing damage. In that case, the damage is coming from a separate source.

[RSP]

Here's the relevant text from Hexblade's Curse:

So it is Fireball damage. Hexblade's Curse isn't an extra damage source, it actually makes your Fireball stronger against the cursed target. That's how it works.

Compare this with, say, the Swarmkeeper Ranger's Gathering Swarm feature. With that feature, after you hit with an attack, you can then have the swarm deal additional piercing damage. In that case, the damage is coming from a separate source.

I don’t think there’s actually a clear RAW on this, so I’m just going with my opinion. The fireball half damage is only limiting to the fireball damage. The Curse damage is it’s own thing, a separate source of damage. If it actually made the fireball stronger, as you suggest, than all creatures in the AoE would take the extra 6 damage, not just the Cursed target. The damage for the fireball would have been 36; not 30, and the Cursed target takes an extra 6 untyped damage. However, we know the Curse works that it doesn’t increase the damage of the fireball (it stays as 30), it only adds damage to the Cursed target.

The “save for half” is similar to, but different than, Resistance. The RAW tells us a little more info on Resistance, enough, I think, that the Curse would not be halved if a creature had Fire Resistance, as the Curse is not Fire damage.

With less info about “save for half” type spells than we have for Resistance, that’s the closest thing I can find to help guide the answer to the question.

Plus, in-game, I’m not sure how being able to protect yourself from the Fireball protects you from the Curse (the Curse being a separate thing), but that’s just me.

[Hytheter]

I don’t think there’s actually a clear RAW on this, so I’m just going with my opinion. The fireball half damage is only limiting to the fireball damage. The Curse damage is it’s own thing, a separate source of damage. If it actually made the fireball stronger, as you suggest, than all creatures in the AoE would take the extra 6 damage, not just the Cursed target. The damage for the fireball would have been 36; not 30, and the Cursed target takes an extra 6 untyped damage. However, we know the Curse works that it doesn’t increase the damage of the fireball (it stays as 30), it only adds damage to the Cursed target.

It increases the damage of the fireball against the target. I don't see any ambiguity in that.

[Greywander]

If it actually made the fireball stronger, as you suggest, than all creatures in the AoE would take the extra 6 damage, not just the Cursed target.
...I can't agree with your conclusion, but I have to admit that you've got a point here.

Since Hexblade's Curse adds to the damage, that tells me that it's included as part of the Fireball damage. It's kind of the same thing as how paladins get to double their smite dice if they crit, because the smite damage is considered to be part of that attack (the smite isn't actually a secondary damage source, but an increase to the weapon's damage). It is strange, since the damage increase is only against one target, but we do see other cases of this. The cleric's Blessed Strikes also only adds damage against one target, as does the Celestial Warlock's Radiant Soul.

Perhaps the easiest comparison is if one target had vulnerability to fire damage, while the others did not. Thus, that one enemy ends up taking more damage from the Fireball, instead of all of them. Alternatively, think of it like a reverse of damage reduction, like how Heavy Armor Master reduces BPS damage by a certain amount, Hexblade's Curse does the opposite, increasing damage, but only against that specific target.

So it's not so much that it makes the Fireball stronger, it's more that it gives reverse damage reduction (i.e. a damage increase) to the cursed target. But it's still Fireball damage. I do think this is definitively RAW, particularly since it specifically adds to the damage roll. That's the key; there's not some other effect occurring that is dealing secondary damage, instead it is the primary damage itself that is being increased.

[RSP]

It increases the damage of the fireball against the target. I don't see any ambiguity in that.

It’s a modifier to the damage. Here’s how the RAW tells us to work a damage roll:

“You roll the damage die or dice, add any modifiers, and apply the damage to your target.”

So if the “save for half” occurs on the roll, then you would add the 6 untyped damage as a modifier after it is halved.

If the “save for half” is a modifier, taken into account after the roll is made, well then nothing in the RAW tells us whether or not the “save for half” modifier is done before or after the +6 untyped damage modifier.

So the issue is, RAW doesn’t tell us when the “save for half” is applied. For Resistance, we do have RAW: “Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage.” However, “save for half” isn’t Resistance, hence my statement of there not being a RAW answer for this.

And again, it’s clearly not added to the fireball damage as the RAW tells us this:

“If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.”

Clearly, we’re not adding +6 to the fireball damage roll as that would then apply to all targets. This is a separate damage source that’s applied with the fireball’s (or any other source from the Hexblade to the target’s) damage.



Perhaps the easiest comparison is if one target had vulnerability to fire damage, while the others did not. Thus, that one enemy ends up taking more damage from the Fireball, instead of all of them. Alternatively, think of it like a reverse of damage reduction, like how Heavy Armor Master reduces BPS damage by a certain amount, Hexblade's Curse does the opposite, increasing damage, but only against that specific target.

So it's not so much that it makes the Fireball stronger, it's more that it gives reverse damage reduction (i.e. a damage increase) to the cursed target. But it's still Fireball damage. I do think this is definitively RAW, particularly since it specifically adds to the damage roll. That's the key; there's not some other effect occurring that is dealing secondary damage, instead it is the primary damage itself that is being increased.

The Curse adds damage, regardless of source, hence it’s not the same as the source. It’s not a second “damage” but it is a second source. It’s also not Vulnerability, damage reduction or Resistance. I understand wanting to use those rules to inform a ruling, but I wouldn’t call that ruling RAW.

Think of this: the Hexblade cast Flame Strike instead of Fireball. Now is the Curse damage Fire damage or Bludgeoning damage? What if the target has Resistance to Fire? Is it halved or not?

Again, I think this boils down to “when is “save for half” applied”, which we have no RAW answer on (so far as I’m aware).

[Hytheter]

So the issue is, RAW doesn’t tell us when the “save for half” is applied. For Resistance, we do have RAW: “Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage.” However, “save for half” isn’t Resistance, hence my statement of there not being a RAW answer for this.

The question is about resistance in the first place.

[RSP]

The question is about resistance in the first place.

No, it’s not. The thread title says resistance, but the OP doesn’t mention it: they mention save for half, which isn’t resistance.

[Greywander]

So the issue is, RAW doesn’t tell us when the “save for half” is applied.
I'm pretty sure RAI it acts as a modifier to the overall damage. So it would apply after everything else, including after Resistance or Vulnerability. You have to first tally up all the damage, and then you would cut the total damage in half if they pass their save.

Though I could see where you could get the interpretation that only the dice roll gets halved. "A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." I can see how it could be implied that a successful save specifically takes half of the 8d6 damage, not half of the total damage, because of how it's worded. Interesting, I'm not entirely sure what to make of this.

[Hytheter]

No, it’s not. The thread title says resistance, but the OP doesn’t mention it: they mention save for half, which isn’t resistance.


Hear me out here because I'm a bit of an idiot...

Pretend for a min you're level 20 and let us say you throw a level 3 fire ball into a room with a cursed target let's say you rolled a 30 and they resist the spell do you:
#1 +6 to the 30 making it 36 then half it so 18 or
#2 +6 to the 15 (halfed fire ball) making it 21

I only ask this because their is no techincal damage type for the curse and my question is whether or not it should be able to be resisted or is it a "fixed" damage.

No mention of saving throws whatsoever. They even specifically mention that the root of their question is about the damage type of the curse effect (but damage bonuses always use the source's damage type, and resistance therefore does apply).

[RSP]

I'm pretty sure RAI it acts as a modifier to the overall damage. So it would apply after everything else, including after Resistance or Vulnerability. You have to first tally up all the damage, and then you would cut the total damage in half if they pass their save.

Though I could see where you could get the interpretation that only the dice roll gets halved. "A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one." I can see how it could be implied that a successful save specifically takes half of the 8d6 damage, not half of the total damage, because of how it's worded. Interesting, I'm not entirely sure what to make of this.

One thing that is pertinent to me in this, is that the Resistance rules are a “specific beats general” set of rules that modify the Damage Roll rules. Those specific rules tell us to do Resistance and Vulnerability after everything else is completed with the Damage Roll rules (“Resistance and then vulnerability are applied after all other modifiers to damage.”)

I’d definitely say this means, RAW, “save for half” occurs at some point before Resistance would (as Resistance is applied after all other modifiers), hence I find it difficult to say it would likewise follow the specific rules for Resistance as that would “break” the RAW on Resistance (that is, it’s no longer being applied after all other modifiers but is now concurrent with applying other modifiers).


No mention of saving throws whatsoever. They even specifically mention that the root of their question is about the damage type of the curse effect (but damage bonuses always use the source's damage type, and resistance therefore does apply).

Oh you may be correct in that, though the OP didn’t use the correct terminology in that case: Resistance is a game term that means you take half damage from a specific damage type. Resist is a common English definition.

I was reading it as “resist the spell” (as they never mentioned “Fire Resistance”), which, unfortunately, the RAW states is kind of what happens when one passes a save (for reference: “Saving Throws
Many spells specify that a target can make a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure.

The DC to resist one of your spells equals 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your proficiency bonus + any special modifiers.”)

Either way, I don’t agree that your conclusion is true that “bonuses always use the source's damage type”. See my post above where Flame Strike is cast instead of Fireball: is the Curse now Bludgeoning or Fire, RAW?

For reference, here’s the RAW on untyped damage: “The damage types follow, with examples to help a DM assign a damage type to a new effect.”

So it’s not that “it’s automatically Fire damage”, it’s whatever the DM thinks is appropriate to that source. Personally, I’d say HC is closer to Hex (and therefore Necrotic damage) than I would say the Curse is Fire damage.

But I also don’t mind untyped damage and would just keep it at that (for better or worse).

[Hytheter]

Note: this has nothing to do with resistance, btw; saving for half isn’t the same thing as resistance. If a target with Fire Resistance failed the save, they’d take 15 damage from fireball and 6 damage from the Curse (which isn’t Fire damage. If a target with resistance to Fire passed the save l, they’d take 7 Fire damage from fireball and 6 damage from the Curse.

The curse IS fire damage. Untyped modifiers to damage rolls inherit the type of the damage roll, see sneak attack and hunter's mark. All damage has a type. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808833377621057536)

[Hytheter]

Either way, I don’t agree that your conclusion is true that “bonuses always use the source's damage type”. See my post above where Flame Strike is cast instead of Fireball: is the Curse now Bludgeoning or Fire, RAW?

Up to you, apparently. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808824943299264512)

[RSP]

Up to you, apparently. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/808824943299264512)

JC’s tweets aren’t RAW. I posted the RAW as an edit above, which is: the DM chooses the damage type, not that it automatically adopts the damage type of a different source.

[MercCpt]

Thank you all to who replied just to clear things up I am asking about resistances
Wheater or not Hexblade's curse could or should be able to be resisted when the above situation happens or in other situations.

[Greywander]

Thank you all to who replied just to clear things up I am asking about resistances
Wheater or not Hexblade's curse could or should be able to be resisted when the above situation happens or in other situations.
I'm still not entirely sure if you're talking about them passing their save, or having resistance to fire damage. However, I think either way the outcome would be the same.


Hear me out here because I'm a bit of an idiot...

Pretend for a min you're level 20 and let us say you throw a level 3 fire ball into a room with a cursed target let's say you rolled a 30 and they resist the spell do you:
#1 +6 to the 30 making it 36 then half it so 18 or
#2 +6 to the 15 (halfed fire ball) making it 21

I only ask this because their is no techincal damage type for the curse and my question is whether or not it should be able to be resisted or is it a "fixed" damage.
Reposting the OP to help us get back on track. As I said above, I believe it's #1, add the +6 to the 30, then halve it for 18 final damage.

If we're talking about fire resistance, then I believe the extra damage becomes fire damage. There's no such thing as untyped damage in 5e, so any time you enhance the damage of something, you usually add more damage of the same type it already did. In some cased, e.g. with a Flame Tongue that deals both slashing and fire damage, you could choose which damage type to enhance.

If we're talking about passing their save, I believe the save for half means they take half of the total damage. There does seem to be a potential interpretation for only taking half of the dice roll, so adding a fixed amount wouldn't be affected. However, I don't think this interpretation is correct. YMMV.

[MercCpt]

I'm still not entirely sure if you're talking about them passing their save, or having resistance to fire damage. However, I think either way the outcome would be the same.

Not passing just resisting