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DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 07:06 PM
I plan on running an Evil Overlord campagin where the PCs are Evil Overlords. To minimize the backstabing, I place in three things: a goal (world domination, which, why stop at one world?), a system of checks and balances (ie everyone is useful), and a force to, at least marginally, control them. I currently lack this force, and am looking for ideas on this. This force would be incapable of enacting plans on the world, and would require the PCs, but would be more than able to mess with the PCs for failure (or taking down a useful partner, like another PC that wasn't failing).

So, examples of an Ultimate Evil (and please, not the DPPDC)?

Mojo_Rat
2007-11-17, 07:17 PM
Having everyone worship the same evil god probably helps alot as far as the force goes. Also If there is an existing social hierarchy that the PC's have to live under and if that social hierarchy is enforced then they PC's will have to work their backstabbing around that.

Also the number of players can Matter. One of the best games I had was 2 Cn Pcs and a CE Pc (mine) We largely had a mexican stand off going. Eseentially There were two stronger members and one weak member. However If anyone tried to backstab anyone else it was likely that the other two people would side with each other making it much harder. It ended up working well.

As the campaign expanded beyond the original 3 people we even would nominate new Pcs to the leader position then ignore them when things went right or blame them when things went wrong :) However none of this was planned so It just worked out that way.


One thing might help is to have the PC's write backgrounds ahead of time. they could then work out some of these details all along. Having smone everone agrees is leader helps alot as well. If you have 5 Pc's and they all want to be the head evil overlord its problematic to game continuity.

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 07:47 PM
Having everyone worship the same evil god probably helps alot as far as the force goes. Also If there is an existing social hierarchy that the PC's have to live under and if that social hierarchy is enforced then they PC's will have to work their backstabbing around that.

Also the number of players can Matter. One of the best games I had was 2 Cn Pcs and a CE Pc (mine) We largely had a mexican stand off going. Eseentially There were two stronger members and one weak member. However If anyone tried to backstab anyone else it was likely that the other two people would side with each other making it much harder. It ended up working well.

As the campaign expanded beyond the original 3 people we even would nominate new Pcs to the leader position then ignore them when things went right or blame them when things went wrong :) However none of this was planned so It just worked out that way.


One thing might help is to have the PC's write backgrounds ahead of time. they could then work out some of these details all along. Having smone everone agrees is leader helps alot as well. If you have 5 Pc's and they all want to be the head evil overlord its problematic to game continuity.

Your advice is not what I want (though it is good advice, it is advice that not need). I need ideas for an Ultimate Evil. Not suggestions on how to run an evil campaign.

Sorry if I come out as a bit snarky though; I'm wanting some brainstorming, not help on how to run something.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-17, 07:50 PM
Hm... How about Asmodeus?

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 07:52 PM
Hm... How about Asmodeus?

A small step in the right direction; but he's a bit overused; and I prefer custom stuff rather than pre-written stuff.

brian c
2007-11-17, 07:56 PM
An evil dragon, while not exactly innovative, could fit the bill pretty well. What level campaign is this? Unless the PCs are very high level and/or very optimized, a CR 26 or so dragon should keep them on their toes.

VeisuItaTyhjyys
2007-11-17, 07:57 PM
It depends on exactly how intense we are talking. If you wanted you characters to fight the very idea of Evil, that's pretty much the Ultimate-est Evil one can find. It would also mean refraining from evil acts, such as lying, stealing, and killing. Good luck with them succeeding.
Alternately, an overzealous character makes a cool Ultimate Evil.

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 08:05 PM
An evil dragon, while not exactly innovative, could fit the bill pretty well. What level campaign is this? Unless the PCs are very high level and/or very optimized, a CR 26 or so dragon should keep them on their toes.

The PCs would be high level (18th, to be exact), but perhaps messing with the dragon a bit would help? That's a nice and simple step in the right direction.


It depends on exactly how intense we are talking. If you wanted you characters to fight the very idea of Evil, that's pretty much the Ultimate-est Evil one can find. It would also mean refraining from evil acts, such as lying, stealing, and killing. Good luck with them succeeding.
Alternately, an overzealous character makes a cool Ultimate Evil.


Evil Overlord Campaign = PC Evil characters, of the Evil Overlord persuasion. I wouldn't want them to shoot down half of their own alignment :smallwink:

brian c
2007-11-17, 08:08 PM
The PCs would be high level (18th, to be exact), but perhaps messing with the dragon a bit would help? That's a nice and simple step in the right direction.

Dragon with class levels? Sorcerer is the obvious choice, or some PrC; not sure off the top of my head what a dragon could qualify for, but I'm sure there are a few. Should be able to get into Archmage, Loremaster maybe, and more outside of core.

Edit: or you could find some nice templates, but advancing spellcasting is probably the best way to go in terms of making it more powerful

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 08:13 PM
Dragon with class levels? Sorcerer is the obvious choice, or some PrC; not sure off the top of my head what a dragon could qualify for, but I'm sure there are a few. Should be able to get into Archmage, Loremaster maybe, and more outside of core.

Edit: or you could find some nice templates, but advancing spellcasting is probably the best way to go in terms of making it more powerful

Well, at this point, it comes down to adding the fluff; what makes the Dragon the Ultimate Evil, how he contacts PCs, etc. Once the fluff's in place, add the classes and go from there.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-17, 08:22 PM
Epic-CR dragon works. Look in the Draconomicon for dragon-specific advancement options...my personal favorite is Dragon Ascendant.

I still think Asmodeus would be a good idea, as this is exactly his style. If you feel he's trite, you could try a lesser Archdevil, like Mephistopheles (also exactly his style, and he's rather more likely to obliterate you if you piss him off). The god Tharizdun would make a good choice, except he's really more about wiping out existence than setting up king-like proxies. Someone like him that the players wouldn't immediately recognize as setting them up for annihilation could be interesting, though...

You could also pillage ideas from a more specific campaign setting and rename them, like the imprisoned semi-deific fiends or personified dream creatures from Eberron.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-17, 08:25 PM
What about some evil being from the Far Realm that is able to contact the material plane and mess with people mentally, but it is straining. So it enlists (through rewards of power or reprogramming the person's brain) to work for it to take over the world or just open a way for it to enter the material plane.

Of course you could use some ancient being from the Abyss that fell from power when the demons arose or something similar.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 08:27 PM
Don't forget horrific abominations from the far realm.

EDIT: Stupid ninjas.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-17, 09:06 PM
I'd avoid the Far Realms. They have a nasty alien mindset that prevents you from trusting them. Besides, mad cultists are more their style. Also, the OP wants something that can enforce loyalty. Nothing in the Far Realms is likely to reach the PCs if they don't bring it over themselves.

Thane of Fife
2007-11-17, 09:09 PM
Something which exists at least partially inside the PCs - a ghost that can possess them, or something capable of taking some controo over there bodies makes for supreme control.

A being in charge of an important organization which the PCs need, but which they can't access without him. (The high priest of an order generally thought of as good, for example).

Woot Spitum
2007-11-17, 09:26 PM
Perhaps the CC's are living keys capable of unlocking a hideously evil artifact. If one of them dies, the others can no longer get the artifact. That would prevent backstabbing.

PlasticSoldier
2007-11-17, 09:29 PM
@^: That sounds like something vulnerable to loopholes, such as casting flesh to stone on everyone else and then when you need them casting stone to flesh.

How about a vestige? They're pretty powerful but aren't capable of doing things on there own.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-17, 09:33 PM
Ideal Ultimate Evil? Is that something like gating in solars and making them kill babies?

Hi. I'm one of the prospective players in this game. I have what you might call an active imagination when it comes to making up really evil things for evil people to do. Such as this. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3344899&postcount=1)

:smallbiggrin:

I'm not going to follow this thread(and have, in fact, only read the first post), I just wanted to make a snarky comment, so don't worry about spoilers. If it helps, I am going to be playing a Dark Aasimar Half-Celestial Cleric of Despair, gestalt with mostly Warblade. Hurrah for fallen angels as evil overlords!

EDIt- Dtemplar doesn't care if I follow this thread, so I will.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-17, 09:35 PM
Perhaps the CC's are living keys capable of unlocking a hideously evil artifact. If one of them dies, the others can no longer get the artifact. That would prevent backstabbing.

Two problems:

1) It means the PCs can never die during the course of their adventures.

2) There are ways to keep people alive and cooperative while still backstabbing them. Horrible, sadistic ways. This simply discourages murder and encourages, say, geas and programmed amnesia.

Xefas
2007-11-17, 09:41 PM
A small step in the right direction; but he's a bit overused; and I prefer custom stuff rather than pre-written stuff.

You realize he's overused for a reason, right?

It's not like gamers go around saying "Damn, that villain was beyond unmitigated crap. Raw sewage incarnate, really...hey, lets use him again!"

Society at large enjoys doing this, but I like to think the gaming subculture does so less often.

Anyway, if you prefer custom stuff...lessee...ummm, so theres this Arch...gavel. Archgavel, named As...some...Awesome-Moose. He's lord of the 11 Bells of Attrition. He wants to rule the multiverse, but he can't, because he's a gavel, and most people don't take a small wooden hammer seriously, no matter how much the ultimate evil they are.

So, Awesome-Moose pretends to be a big red guy in a coat with a pentagram stick, and he enlists mortal agents to take over the multiverse for him. After the Beckoning of the Bells...

Err...I kind of lost myself in my own snarky metaphor...

The point is that homebrewed stuff isn't automatically better than pre-established stuff. I toss in a vote that you should use Asmodeus.

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 09:58 PM
You realize he's overused for a reason, right?

It's not like gamers go around saying "Damn, that villain was beyond unmitigated crap. Raw sewage incarnate, really...hey, lets use him again!"

Society at large enjoys doing this, but I like to think the gaming subculture does so less often.

Anyway, if you prefer custom stuff...lessee...ummm, so theres this Arch...gavel. Archgavel, named As...some...Awesome-Moose. He's lord of the 11 Bells of Attrition. He wants to rule the multiverse, but he can't, because he's a gavel, and most people don't take a small wooden hammer seriously, no matter how much the ultimate evil they are.

So, Awesome-Moose pretends to be a big red guy in a coat with a pentagram stick, and he enlists mortal agents to take over the multiverse for him. After the Beckoning of the Bells...

Err...I kind of lost myself in my own snarky metaphor...

The point is that homebrewed stuff isn't automatically better than pre-established stuff. I toss in a vote that you should use Asmodeus.

18th level isn't too far from the point where you could start taking down Asmodeus with careful planning. I want custom stuff so my players can't plan against it as easily as Asmodeus. Plus, the Unknown is a very useful advantage.



@^: That sounds like something vulnerable to loopholes, such as casting flesh to stone on everyone else and then when you need them casting stone to flesh.

How about a vestige? They're pretty powerful but aren't capable of doing things on there own.


Vestiges would be something I'd have to look into, since I'm not well versed in Tome of Magic, but that sounds interesting.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-17, 10:05 PM
Hmm...You want ultimate evil? The baddest, most horrific evil?


Easy. Anything NE that is as bad as the Yugoloth's. Heck, they caused the biggest power imbalance ever (the blood war), and managed to stay away from it!

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 10:13 PM
Hmm...You want ultimate evil? The baddest, most horrific evil?


Easy. Anything NE that is as bad as the Yugoloth's. Heck, they caused the biggest power imbalance ever (the blood war), and managed to stay away from it!

A path to look at. Got any big wigs you can point to in that regard?

Mewtarthio
2007-11-17, 10:16 PM
18th level isn't too far from the point where you could start taking down Asmodeus with careful planning. I want custom stuff so my players can't plan against it as easily as Asmodeus. Plus, the Unknown is a very useful advantage.

Eighteenth-level characters taking down Asmodeus? He'd kill them easily in a straight fight, and he's a lot smarter than any of them, and he has more resources, and he has more information...

Seriously, the CR of an archdevil is way higher than 18, and Asmodeus is powerful enough that none of them have unseated him. Heck, I'm sure there's a bunch of Demon Lords out there who'd like to kill him, and none of them have succeeded either. Level 18 is quite powerful on the Prime Material Plane, but when you deal with entities like Asmodeus, you're just a minnow in a sea of sharks.

Still, I can see why you'd want to spring something unexpected on them.


Vestiges would be something I'd have to look into, since I'm not well versed in Tome of Magic, but that sounds interesting.

They're basically creatures that have fallen outside of existence. Binders bind them, and the vestige grants the binder powers in exchange for the ability to experience existence through the binder. If your PCs stumbled across a way to recover a vestige, they'd jump at the opportunity. The vestige, meanwhile, can still influence the PCs, either through a cabal of binders that bind the vestige to them or through granting exclusive rights to a PC binder. They've also got an advantage over traditional villains in that you can't kill a vestige, since it's neither alive nor dead. Off the current cultist that's pushing you around, and a new one shows up in his place (technically, vestiges can only influence their hosts in relatively subtle ways, so you'll need to have the cult actually dedicated to this guy).

There's also a great thread on this forum that tells the story of a campaign centered around a bunch of vestiges causing trouble: It's titled "Horror Campaign." You might find it interesting if you go the vestige route.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-17, 10:17 PM
Hmm...

I'm thinking of two things right now. One, a NE is NOT usually a killer, but one that lets others do the work, so you could try a Godfather, which is even better for memorable evil because courteousness is not that common.


Two, a NE goes his own way, unhindered by codes or impulsiveness. I'd say a seeker of ultimate power (A psion looking to create a worlwide telepathic link so that he can dominate everyone) is also very NE'ish, as is someone who does evil for evil's sake.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-17, 10:19 PM
Eighteenth-level characters taking down Asmodeus? He'd kill them easily in a straight fight, and he's a lot smarter than any of them, and he has more resources, and he has more information...


Never underestimate the power of PC ingenuity. While Assmodeous may have really high mentals and thus be able to outthink the characters, the DM is at an inherent disadvantage in that he has to try and outthink multiple people at once.

Sovin N'dore
2007-11-17, 10:21 PM
Well, I suppose I will chime in with my advice. I would start with something along these lines. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=625656) They are some of my favorite evil builds and since I will probably not be going there...

DTemplar5
2007-11-17, 10:31 PM
Well, I suppose I will chime in with my advice. I would start with something along these lines. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=625656) They are some of my favorite evil builds and since I will probably not be going there...

This is exactly what I wanted. Of course, leave it to my players to find this stuff.

Sovin N'dore
2007-11-17, 10:35 PM
On the WotC CO boards the Boogeyman (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=313633) is really a more iconic build, but I don't think it has the flavor of the Triad.

BloodyAngel
2007-11-17, 10:55 PM
It seems like you're looking for a powerful force to keep the PC's allied and not killing each other... but which needs them around. (After all... if it's omnipotent and bad-ass... it can do it's own ass-kicking and world dominating better than they can).

How about this. The ghost of a god, slain by his fellow gods, who choses the PC to help restore it to life. It cannot influence the world in particular... but it's worshippers can. An entire cult of fanatically devoted lunatics who STILL draw power from their worship (in fact... it may be their devotion that is keeping their god in existance in the first place) despite their god's lack of power. The god promises them unimaginable power... nay... even demi-god status if they can manage this great undertaking. Or, failing that... it can use it's cult to extort them... but what evil group won't jump at the change to become gods? (And eventually betray their patron and take over... but that's a long time away).

Just an idea... and there aren't rules for it. If you just want an uber-bad ass combat machine of destruction... just add on to a dragon or the like. Or a Tarrasque with 20 levels in monk. Be afraid.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-17, 10:57 PM
That doesn't help much with a cleric in the party.

Mojo_Rat
2007-11-17, 11:19 PM
Your advice is not what I want (though it is good advice, it is advice that not need). I need ideas for an Ultimate Evil. Not suggestions on how to run an evil campaign.

Sorry if I come out as a bit snarky though; I'm wanting some brainstorming, not help on how to run something.

Np Although i thought i answered some of your question in my post. You Are also It seems dealing with the very top end of things. Where As I had been thinking the Pcs were starting out as Minor evils and working their way up tot he world-domination. But apparently they will be starting out with the attempt at the world domination then.

That also means that having some sort of religous or cultural or social force to stop them from activly killing eachother is much harder.

Anyhow All i can think of for that power level is perhaps have the Players decide ooc ahead of time whos going to be leader and work from a religous angle. Alot of good evil plots invole either Avatars or holy warriors of evil gods or trying to raise ones self up which is easily part of a world domination angle which ther Pc's can get behind.

Makes them much less likely to backstab eachother if they all think they will get something lot of it when the main person gets their goal.

Doresain
2007-11-18, 01:31 AM
going for archdevils, i think levistus would be an interesting choice...the characters never actually get to meet him face to face, but they know hes got power and influence

Jothki
2007-11-18, 01:58 AM
You could go for the Mumm-Ra approach and have the players take orders from a bunch of evil idol things. Throw in some long-term buffs when the characters are successful, to keep the characters/players happy.

turkishproverb
2007-11-18, 02:01 AM
I plan on running an Evil Overlord campagin where the PCs are Evil Overlords. To minimize the backstabing, I place in three things: a goal (world domination, which, why stop at one world?), a system of checks and balances (ie everyone is useful), and a force to, at least marginally, control them. I currently lack this force, and am looking for ideas on this. This force would be incapable of enacting plans on the world, and would require the PCs, but would be more than able to mess with the PCs for failure (or taking down a useful partner, like another PC that wasn't failing).

So, examples of an Ultimate Evil (and please, not the DPPDC)?

Paragon, Demilich Kobold.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-18, 02:48 AM
You mentioned fears that they might kill Asmodeus?

To prevent that, just use...

The Dicef---what? Okay, Dicefreaks is down. Apparently even CR 57 DivR 10 Lords of the Nine are vulnerable to the epic failure that is PHPBB.

Check out http://community.dicefreaks.com when and if the site comes back up.

Fishy
2007-11-18, 06:39 AM
Depending on how scared you are of Psionics, I'd use the Ilithid Council. The Mind Flayers have been shoved into the past, and they're trying to make sure the future happens- so they're justified in working towards whatever the DM needs them to. They can communicate with the PCs through telepathy/astral projection if they have to, lessening the risk of getting stabbed in the face. And if the PCs start disobeying, they can reprogram their minds, or if worse comes to worst, jam a larva in their ear.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-18, 06:45 AM
One of the PCs is an Illithid Psion. Don't know how that works in with that idea.

leperkhaun
2007-11-18, 07:10 AM
make them too weak indivdually. For example, having a couple "good" kingdoms around them who could take ONE (or two) of them out but not all of them if they work together.

That way they would have to work together to not be overrun by the enemy.

Your other option is just to tell them no backstabbing and let your resonsible players go along with it.

DTemplar5
2007-11-18, 08:50 AM
Demilich Paragon Kobald- Awesome idea.

The Mumm-Ra approch also sounds like a good way to do. And as it's an approch, it leaves anything behind those idols.

Illithid Council...not so much; considering that one of the other players is doing Illithids.

I'd rather avoid race-specific Evil groups, since I appear to have quite a diverse group of Undead Blackguard, Fallen Aasimar Cleric, and Illithid Psion. Besides, Evil is an Equal Oppertunity Employer, right?

Doresain
2007-11-18, 04:21 PM
Demilich Paragon Kobald- Awesome idea.

The Mumm-Ra approch also sounds like a good way to do. And as it's an approch, it leaves anything behind those idols.

Illithid Council...not so much; considering that one of the other players is doing Illithids.

I'd rather avoid race-specific Evil groups, since I appear to have quite a diverse group of Undead Blackguard, Fallen Aasimar Cleric, and Illithid Psion. Besides, Evil is an Equal Oppertunity Employer, right?

with the exception of gnomes...evil hates gnomes

Clementx
2007-11-18, 04:38 PM
Surrounding PCs is a PUWIF (Put Up With It Field). When two fields intersect, normal behavior is replaced with general indifference/tolerance for personal history, goals, alignment, and actions (paladins do not have a PUWIF). Well, that is how it works in most kick-in-the-door games that don't want to descend into constant inter-party strife.

Rather than bludgeoning them with an over-overlord, you can tie them together with their backstory. Have all of them be long-term allies that fall within an undisputed circle of trust. You can be just as evil hating and torturing all existence because (Everything minus two other people) ~ (Everything). It is not out of alignment to have friends and boundaries. You don't have to murder everyone in their sleep to prove how evil you are. Once players know they have to create characters that need to function with others for the purpose of the game (because you don't want an adversarial game), things work out better.

That being said, having an over-overlord of some sort is a good supplement to iron out the small spites and conflicts that do arise. That way, when one player kills another's servant for a good reason, the reprisal does not spiral into a death-feud.

Woot Spitum
2007-11-18, 04:48 PM
Dracolichs are always good. Another idea would be to use a powerful evil creature (vampire for example) that is not vulneable to its typical weaknesses (in this case sunlight, staking, etc.). This creature would still have weaknesses, but it would require careful research by the PC's to discover them.

Sstoopidtallkid
2007-11-18, 04:58 PM
The other thing you can do is tell them that if they lose a member, they are one person down until at least the next session is over. And if it is a teammate kill, the encounters won't change. Make them have a reason to keep each other alive. I had an adventure once where I was a CE thief who was only in it for the money and didn't care about anyone's safety but his own. He hated his teammates and had guns drawn against the 7ft tall tank over $20, but he knew he only got paid if he lived, so he never killed anyone on his team because he knew he would likely die without them. You can be evil and still need your teammates. Think about it, why do most parties put up with a paladin? Because if they leave him behind, they will probably die at the hands of their necromancer BBEG. Give your players the same rationale. They can work together and hate each other.

Alternatively, give them a LE NPC companion who has been betrayed so often that he will stab anyone who kills a teammate, and nevermind the contradiction. You are the GM, there are a lot of ways you can enforce your decrees.

DTemplar5
2007-11-18, 05:36 PM
Surrounding PCs is a PUWIF (Put Up With It Field). When two fields intersect, normal behavior is replaced with general indifference/tolerance for personal history, goals, alignment, and actions (paladins do not have a PUWIF). Well, that is how it works in most kick-in-the-door games that don't want to descend into constant inter-party strife.

Rather than bludgeoning them with an over-overlord, you can tie them together with their backstory. Have all of them be long-term allies that fall within an undisputed circle of trust. You can be just as evil hating and torturing all existence because (Everything minus two other people) ~ (Everything). It is not out of alignment to have friends and boundaries. You don't have to murder everyone in their sleep to prove how evil you are. Once players know they have to create characters that need to function with others for the purpose of the game (because you don't want an adversarial game), things work out better.

That being said, having an over-overlord of some sort is a good supplement to iron out the small spites and conflicts that do arise. That way, when one player kills another's servant for a good reason, the reprisal does not spiral into a death-feud.

A good addition; and a further tie-in for the villians. Offing would be less likely; but the screwing over would be worse.... Afterall, there are fates worse than death...*cue maniacal laughter*

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-18, 05:43 PM
You could make a :miko: and slap the worst PrC cheese you can find on him/her. Having such a zealot hot on your trails means backstabbing is NOT going to happen, until you off the zealot.

lord_khaine
2007-11-18, 06:08 PM
better yet, make the OOTS to your PC's Linear guild, and make sure they are so evenly mached, that if they kill one of their own their opponents will be able to beat them for sure.

i personaly like this because one of the reasons for being the evil overlord is not to have anyone telling you what to do, being the henchmen of some glorified lizard/outsider would and should make them focus most of their energy, on getting rid of their current boss.

DTemplar5
2007-11-18, 08:09 PM
better yet, make the OOTS to your PC's Linear guild, and make sure they are so evenly mached, that if they kill one of their own their opponents will be able to beat them for sure.

i personaly like this because one of the reasons for being the evil overlord is not to have anyone telling you what to do, being the henchmen of some glorified lizard/outsider would and should make them focus most of their energy, on getting rid of their current boss.

I think my PCs can each have :xykon: as a cohort, and he's giving the OOTS a hard time. An OOTS knock-off won't really be efficent in keeping them aligned. Heck, I'm even using the actual OOTS group as a litmus test for the PCs before I start the game!

Now, I also noted that the party; without exception, is Lawful Evil, so they have good capacity to work together.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-18, 08:12 PM
DINGALINGABLING! LE, you say?

Use a devil contract. They're nigh unbreakable, and a LE guy will just finish it anyway.

Geddoe
2007-11-18, 09:26 PM
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2369/motivator7801114pj6.jpg


Pretty much sums it up.

Zencao
2007-11-18, 09:30 PM
Pun-Pun?

......

DTemplar5
2007-11-18, 09:34 PM
Pun-Pun?

......

*insert Darth Vader-brand Force Grip*

Also, keep coming up with ideas; some good; others, not so much.

And stop bringing up Asmoedous and his ilk; that's kinda been hit on a lot and I don't need any more of that.

Bizzaro
2007-11-19, 01:24 AM
How about some kind of incorporeal dark god similar to the First Evil from the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It could only influence the world through its minions which it granted special abilities to. You could give this First Evil the ability to punish the PC's and reward them as you see fit things like bonuses to hit or damage. And the reverse if they disobey the Evil.

here is the link to the First Evils wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Evil

DTemplar5
2007-11-19, 12:23 PM
How about some kind of incorporeal dark god similar to the First Evil from the final season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It could only influence the world through its minions which it granted special abilities to. You could give this First Evil the ability to punish the PC's and reward them as you see fit things like bonuses to hit or damage. And the reverse if they disobey the Evil.

here is the link to the First Evils wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Evil

Interesting. Not sure I prefer it though. Any other suggestions?

Draco Ignifer
2007-11-19, 01:27 PM
My suggestion is to create a pair of demon gods, rather than just one. The two of them have some sort of infernal wager going, with the PCs working for one of them. Naturally, this means that neither of the two can intervene in the course of the wager; if they do, and the other catches them... and the other is watching them like a hawk, so it will catch them... then they lose. They have to act through servents, and the PCs are it.

Of course, this is a very high-stakes wager, and if the PCs fail it, then when they die, their patron will be most extremely unhappy with them and will demonstrate this for all eternity. If that's not enough, then it can always inflict misery on its own minions... that's just standard demonic rules. Of course, if they succeed, the rewards will be great both in this life and the next - starting your stay in Hell as a demonic noble of some form with the favor of one of the dark gods rather than as a lemure or minor devil is a good little bonus, and divine favor is nothing to be scoffed at in this life either.

Of course, this also presents the problem of the second team trying to accomplish its purposes, which may be completely counter the PC's. One tries to conquer a world, for example, and one tries to annihilate all life on it; one tries to send a world into ruin and misery while one tries to turn it into a decadent empire... something like that. Recurring antagonists, however, are rarely a problem - more of an opportunity.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-19, 05:29 PM
I think my PCs can each have as a cohort, and he's giving the OOTS a hard time.

Minor nit, but given the number of 9th level spells :xykon: has demonstrated knowledge of, he is much higher level than we are.

Mewtarthio
2007-11-19, 05:52 PM
Minor nit, but given the number of 9th level spells :xykon: has demonstrated knowledge of, he is much higher level than we are.

How many ninth-level spells has he demonstrated knowledge of? I've only seen meteor swarm, which puts him at level 18.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-11-19, 06:45 PM
He uses Energy Drain (a lot) in Start of Darkness, which puts him at 19. He might have cast something else in a book-only strip, I'm not sure.

Plus, adding 4 ECL for Lich, since that's what you use for cohorts, he's at least ECL 23.