Cantrip review Request (PEACH): may add to Wild Beyond Witchlight adventure

[KorvinStarmast]

In the process of promoting silly party feats and a cantrip to support one of those feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25248348&postcount=9)[1], I designed:

Shoot Confetti
cantrip, conjuration
Range: 30 ft
Casting time: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous
Components: S, V
Class: Bard, Warlock, Wizard

You point one of your fingers in a direction away from you. A stream of confetti bursts forth to a point within 30' of you, lightly obscuring a volume no larger than a 5' cube for 1 minute. You can have two confetti clouds present at any one time. The clouds do not stack.

The confetti is flammable: mundane fire (torches, matches, burning tapers, candles, etc) and spells such as fire bolt that set fire to flammable materials burn the confetti away. Burning confetti causes 1d4 fire damage to any creature that starts its turn in burning confetti, after which it is consumed and the magical effect ends. Making a Dexterity saving throw avoids the fire damage.

Fire damage is increased to 2d4 at 5th level, 3d4 at 11th level, and 4d4 at 17th level.

Like *vicious mockery*, it has two different effects, but it isn't a powerful damage dealer. In order to do damage, either the bard or the ally must take a subsequent action. The opportunity for accidental damage is certainly present.

Is this cantrip within the bound/constraints of cantrips in the PHB?
If not, what adjustment needs to be made to bring it into balance?

Notes:
1. The chosen volume is similar in size to *minor illusion* and *shape water* cantrips.
2. The "something else catches it on fire" is similar to what happens to a *web* when a *fire bolt*, *flaming sphere*, or a *fireball* hits the webbed area.
3. I was considering making this a bonus action cantrip, but I got the idea that an exploit like shoot confetti/firebolt as bonus action/action would be a 'too powerful' exploit and chose '1 action' instead.

How would you tweak this cantrip to make it 'just right' for use at the table?

[Foolwise]

1st thought when I saw "confetti" was this could be a refluffed Prestidigitation. Then I read the description and thought Minor Illusion except the confetti is real. Then I read the damage portion and thought this is Create Bonfire but req a second spell/action to ignite the confetti.

[MoiMagnus]

Firstly, wind should probably disperse it. So I'd add "A moderate wind (at least 10 miles per hour) disperses the cloud after 4 rounds. A strong wind (at least 20 miles per hour) disperses it after 1 round."

Secondly, it's really against standard 5e spell design to not have this spell use Concentration.
It's essentially a Cloud effect, similar to Fog Cloud, Incendiary Cloud, Stinking Cloud, etc and all of them require concentration. Though I'd agree that balance-wise, a limit of two at a time is likely enough for it to not be OP.

Alternatively, the effect you're describing is IMO more alike a wondrous item than a cantrip.

Thirdly, if you keep it as a spell, I'd consider adding some Material Component (a single confetti) for thematic reasons, but that's not that important.

[KorvinStarmast]

1st thought when I saw "confetti" was this could be a refluffed Prestidigitation. Then I read the description and thought Minor Illusion except the confetti is real. Then I read the damage portion and thought this is Create Bonfire but req a second spell/action to ignite the confetti.
And this is why I asked for other views. You saw something here that wasn't in my brain.

In my brain as I dreamed this up there was vicious mockery, which has two effects: the disadvantage on attack and the damage, both on a failed save.

Thank you! :smallsmile:

@MoiMagnus: Great points, thanks!

[Yakk]

"The clouds do not stack. "

Stack is not a 5e game term.

[Bobthewizard]

This is a great idea. I think lightly obscured is kind of irrelevant in combat and one minute seems like a long time for confetti to hang in the air. So I would change it to heavily obscured that lasts until the end of your next turn. You still have one round to try to burn it away. I'm still not sure it does much, but heavily obscured at least does something.

For the feats you listed, I'd probably change alter self to disguise self. It seems more appropriate for crashing a party.

I'm sure you considered both of those suggestions, though, so if you like it the way it is than it's fine, and they are fun. Nice job.

[Abracadangit]

I'll start off by saying that I love the base concept of a confetti-shooting cantrip, especially if accompanied by a party horn sound effect. Great for Witchlight, thematically.

One of the things I generally like about cantrips is that if they're a damage cantrip, they're easy to use, and if they're a flavor cantrip, they're generally versatile with a little imagination or creativity.

This cantrip is a little wonky, in that it's got a visual flavor that's very distinct, and at the same time, its combat application requires a distinct separate interaction to trigger it (i.e. someone has to put fire on it).

I'd think a confetti-shooting cantrip would have some situationally useful debuff, like "The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, they suffer disadvantage on all Perception checks relying on sight until the end of your next turn. The target may use an action to clear the confetti & glitter from their eyes on their turn, ending the effect early." Something like a low-key version of blinding, since blinding (at least for me) seems pretty strong for a cantrip.

Let me ask you this: what's your design goal, generally, with this cantrip? Then we can workshop it from there.

[JackPhoenix]

Beyond the already mentioned, I think you can bump the damage up to d6 or even d8. It requires 2 actions to do work, and light obscurment is not that serious of an effect to lower the damage that much. Assuming you want it to see regular use in combat, of course. Or allow it to create heavy obscurement if you cast it twice in the same area.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is a great idea. I think lightly obscured is kind of irrelevant in combat and one minute seems like a long time for confetti to hang in the air.
Yeah, my original idea was 1d4 rounds, but the "until the end of your next turn" fits even better. It isn't meant to only be used in combat. Break up line of sight a little bit, maybe that requires the specificity of "disadvantage on perception using sight" needs to be spelled out.

So I would change it to heavily obscured that lasts until the end of your next turn. You still have one round to try to burn it away. I'm still not sure it does much, but heavily obscured at least does something. I am not sure if heavily obscured isn't too powerful for what I have in mind. And it's a cantrip. See the comments on 'blinded' below.

For the feats you listed, I'd probably change alter self to disguise self. It seems more appropriate for crashing a party. Yeah, either one fits, maybe disguise self fits thematically better.

I'll start off by saying that I love the base concept of a confetti-shooting cantrip, especially if accompanied by a party horn sound effect. Great for Witchlight, thematically. Yep, that's what got me thinking to turn this into a homebrew rather than a joke, which is how it started.

This cantrip is a little wonky, in that it's got a visual flavor that's very distinct, and at the same time, its combat application requires a distinct separate interaction to trigger it (i.e. someone has to put fire on it). Or you shoot it at someone who just had their lit birthday cake put infront of them. :smalleek: Or someone who is carrying a torch.


I'd think a confetti-shooting cantrip would have some situationally useful debuff, like "The target must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, they suffer disadvantage on all Perception checks relying on sight until the end of your next turn. The target may use an action to clear the confetti & glitter from their eyes on their turn, ending the effect early." Something like a low-key version of blinding, since blinding (at least for me) seems pretty strong for a cantrip. Nice points.
Yeah, blinded is too strong, hence why I have it at lightly obscured for the time being.

Let me ask you this: what's your design goal, generally, with this cantrip? Then we can workshop it from there. I wanted to silly fun party theme for a bard in Witchlight, but not have it be vicious mockery, but have a power level like vicious mockery; low damage and an additional rider effect. But I don't want the confetti itself to do damage, since I'd like to allow for this to be used outside of combat for just plain fun situations.

Beyond the already mentioned, I think you can bump the damage up to d6 or even d8. It requires 2 actions to do work, and light obscurment is not that serious of an effect to lower the damage that much. Assuming you want it to see regular use in combat, of course. Or allow it to create heavy obscurement if you cast it twice in the same area. Good ideas, but that would take me back to needing to add a duration, and I think the suggestion to "until the end of caster's next turn" captures the 'burst of confetti that then falls to the floor' idea a lot better.

I can expect the exploit mavens to ask me: will the confetti on the floor be flammable, and can I stack up a bunch? The answer is no, but I can see the old "I'll cast four confetti in a row and stack up a bunch of fire damage" to which I answer "it's magical, so as it drifts to the floor it fades and disappears"

Anyway, that's where my head is on this, you all have given me great feedback.
Thanks, still working on the update. I'll post it here.

[Bobthewizard]

I am not sure if heavily obscured isn't too powerful for what I have in mind. And it's a cantrip. See the comments on 'blinded' below.

Yeah, blinded is too strong, hence why I have it at lightly obscured for the time being.

Two differences between blinded and heavily obscured that I think make heavily obscured ok here while blindness would not be ok. First, since obscurement works both ways, your allies don't get advantage to hit them, since they won't be able to see them either. It just negates any advantage/disadvantage. Second, usually they can just walk out of the square to end it, unlike blindness which would follow them.

It would be great to cast on a grappled spellcaster, but that's pretty niche.

Another use would be to allow several characters to disengage only using your action. Your allies could still use their action while they move away. Still not very common.

[KorvinStarmast]

Two differences between blinded and heavily obscured that I think make heavily obscured ok here while blindness would not be ok. First, since obscurement works both ways, your allies don't get advantage to hit them, since they won't be able to see them either. It just negates any advantage/disadvantage. Second, usually they can just walk out of the square to end it, unlike blindness which would follow them.

It would be great to cast on a grappled spellcaster, but that's pretty niche.

Another use would be to allow several characters to disengage only using your action. Your allies could still use their action while they move away. Still not very common. And we once again see my wisdom in vetting this with the Playgrounders. Great points all! :smallsmile:

[Yakk]

I'd cut flammable completely. Either it is an awkward way to do damage, or it isn't important. In either case, it gets in the way: you want to maximize content per word at least a bit.

A streak of confetti shoots out of your hand. It ends in a 5' diameter sphere up to 30' away from you. Creatures engulfed in the 5' diameter sphere can make a dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC; on success, they can expend their reaction to move up to half of their speed.

The sphere is heavily obscured until the end of your next turn, after which it becomes lightly obscured until the end of your next turn.

At higher levels: At 5th level the sphere remains heavily obscured for the 2nd turn. At 11th level the sphere is increased to 10' diameter, and 15' at 17th level.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd cut flammable completely. Either it is an awkward way to do damage, or it isn't important. In either case, it gets in the way: you want to maximize content per word at least a bit.

A streak of confetti shoots out of your hand. It ends in a 5' diameter sphere up to 30' away from you. Creatures engulfed in the 5' diameter sphere can make a dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC; on success, they can expend their reaction to move up to half of their speed.

The sphere is heavily obscured until the end of your next turn, after which it becomes lightly obscured until the end of your next turn.

At higher levels: At 5th level the sphere remains heavily obscured for the 2nd turn. At 11th level the sphere is increased to 10' diameter, and 15' at 17th level. That's a different idea, and makes it more like a battlefield control spell. Nice thought, now I have to ponder.

[Bobthewizard]

I'd cut flammable completely. Either it is an awkward way to do damage, or it isn't important. In either case, it gets in the way: you want to maximize content per word at least a bit.

A streak of confetti shoots out of your hand. It ends in a 5' diameter sphere up to 30' away from you. Creatures engulfed in the 5' diameter sphere can make a dexterity saving throw against your spell save DC; on success, they can expend their reaction to move up to half of their speed.

The sphere is heavily obscured until the end of your next turn, after which it becomes lightly obscured until the end of your next turn.

At higher levels: At 5th level the sphere remains heavily obscured for the 2nd turn. At 11th level the sphere is increased to 10' diameter, and 15' at 17th level.

I like this. I'd simplify it further. Also, did you mean for it to be a 5' diameter so it covers 4 squares at level 1? (My fault, mixing diameter and radius)

A streak of confetti shoots out of your hand. It ends in a 5' cube up to 30' away from you. The cube is heavily obscured until the end of your next turn.

At higher levels the size increases. At 5th level it covers a 10' cube, at 11th level a 15' cube and at 17th level a 20' cube.

[Yakk]

Diameter is not radius. 5' diameter is not quite as big as a 5' cube.

[Bobthewizard]

Diameter is not radius. 5' diameter is not quite as big as a 5' cube.

You are right

[Greywander]

A couple things:

"A stream of confetti bursts forth to a point within range," otherwise things like Distant Spell wouldn't affect it.
Likewise, it should have a 1 minute duration, unless the confetti itself is non-magical.
I agree that the fire effect is a bit wonky. You could make it dual-purpose, like Produce Flame, but otherwise make it either a combat cantrip or a utility cantrip.
A 5 foot cube is an AoE, just so you're aware. As with Create Bonfire, you could easily hit four enemies in a 2x2 area by positioning the cube on the corner between the four squares.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose or value of light obscurement is. It sounds like you want to use the confetti to hide things, but confetti usually draws attention.

What about something like this?


Bedazzling Celebration
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S, M (a tiny party hat)
Duration: 1 minute

A loud noise and a burst of confetti, glitter, flower petals, sparks, or similar phenomenon emits from a point you can see within range. Creatures within 30 feet of that point must pass a Wisdom saving throw, or else they will stare at the dancing and swirling phenomenon, giving them disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks for the spell's duration. Once a creature succeeds on a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice something besides the spell's effect, they are no longer affected by the spell.

You can cast this spell on a point located in a creature's space. When you do so, that creature must make pass a Constitution saving throw or be deafened until the start of your next turn.

[Foolwise]

A couple things:

"A stream of confetti bursts forth to a point within range," otherwise things like Distant Spell wouldn't affect it.
Likewise, it should have a 1 minute duration, unless the confetti itself is non-magical.
I agree that the fire effect is a bit wonky. You could make it dual-purpose, like Produce Flame, but otherwise make it either a combat cantrip or a utility cantrip.
A 5 foot cube is an AoE, just so you're aware. As with Create Bonfire, you could easily hit four enemies in a 2x2 area by positioning the cube on the corner between the four squares.
I'm not entirely sure what the purpose or value of light obscurement is. It sounds like you want to use the confetti to hide things, but confetti usually draws attention.

What about something like this?


Bedazzling Celebration
Conjuration cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S, M (a tiny party hat)
Duration: 1 minute

A loud noise and a burst of confetti, glitter, flower petals, sparks, or similar phenomenon emits from a point you can see within range. Creatures within 30 feet of that point must pass a Wisdom saving throw, or else they will stare at the dancing and swirling phenomenon, giving them disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks for the spell's duration. Once a creature succeeds on a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice something besides the spell's effect, they are no longer affected by the spell.

You can cast this spell on a point located in a creature's space. When you do so, that creature must make pass a Constitution saving throw or be deafened until the start of your next turn.

Way too OP for a cantrip. This is the 2nd level spell Enthrall with the range cut in half plus an extra rider tacked on. The most comparable cantrip to this is Minor Illusion and this already tops Minor Illusion by being able to create sound and image together. The lowest level illusion spell that can do both is 2nd level again.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just to let you all know, as I ponder this, I think I am moving this to a non damaging spell called
Cloud of Confetti, and the somatic component is a 'toss' motion. Cloud will grow with cantrip upgrades at 5, 11, and 17, and I think we may go for "until the end of your next turn" obscurement.

Best use of it at low level is to help an ally withdraw, to distract an enemy, or something like that. Still pondering. Grows in radius or diameter by 5' per upgrade.

Great ideas in this brainstorm, thanks! :smallsmile:

[Foolwise]

I think that is the best route, but utility cantrips do not scale like attack cantrips do. Instead of increasing the size of the cloud, perhaps give multiple confetti blasts similar to Eldritch Blast. Perhaps that would be even stronger than increasing the radius as the caster could still focus the blasts together as such or spread them out, covering multiple paths with limited obscurement.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think that is the best route, but utility cantrips do not scale like attack cantrips do. Instead of increasing the size of the cloud, perhaps give multiple confetti blasts similar to Eldritch Blast. Perhaps that would be even stronger than increasing the radius as the caster could still focus the blasts together as such or spread them out, covering multiple paths with limited obscurement.
Hmm, dancing lights does something similar, but I do not want a concentration cantrip.
Concentration, as a feature, shall not be a part of this.

[Foolwise]

I don't think concentration would be necessary since the confetti will disperse after the following round. A quick check of concentration spells and every one I looked up had a duration of at least 1 minute, except one spell. As if True Strike wasn't bad enough as is, it also has concentration... for a single round.