High-level cleric spells

[J-H]

What's up with cleric's 8th and 9th level spell selection being so short? Having only about 5 spells to pick from seems weak compared to the options available to arcane casters. Sure, Holy Aura and "Heal the whole 20th level party from 1hp to full with one action" are both very good, but it'd be nice if there were some options.
Control Weather, Earthquake, etc. are city-range spells and pretty good at the strategic layer, but not good in a fight against Dave the Doom Dragon or whatever a high-level cleric has to fight.

I understand why Implosion (totally not a death spell) is gone, but I wish they'd included enough choices that there actually seemed like choices.

[Abracadangit]

Yeah, what's up with that. And Control Weather? Earthquake? Heck, some of them don't even seem that clericky.

Where's some big-AoE radiant damage spell, where's an uber-powerful Concentration-requiring magic circle that shields everyone, where's an all-powerful mass exorcism spell, etc, etc. And I know people are gonna be like "You can't just give everyone their own Meteor Swarm," which is partly true, but then just make it do less damage, or something. Make the support spell options more attractive.

Lot of real estate left untouched.

Edit: Ok -- Holy Aura's kind of like the big uber shield I was talking about. But it's still weird that Holy Aura and Mass Heal are the only cleric-specific spells at these spell levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

What's up with cleric's 8th and 9th level spell selection being so short? Having only about 5 spells to pick from seems weak compared to the options available to arcane casters. Sure, Holy Aura and "Heal the whole 20th level party from 1hp to full with one action" are both very good, but it'd be nice if there were some options.
Control Weather, Earthquake, etc. are city-range spells and pretty good at the strategic layer, but not good in a fight against Dave the Doom Dragon or whatever a high-level cleric has to fight.

I understand why Implosion (totally not a death spell) is gone, but I wish they'd included enough choices that there actually seemed like choices.
Level 20 channel divinity feature fills in a few gaps.
Bards don't have a long 9th level spell list either.

[J-H]

Yeah, what's up with that. And Control Weather? Earthquake? Heck, some of them don't even seem that clericky.

Where's some big-AoE radiant damage spell, where's an uber-powerful Concentration-requiring magic circle that shields everyone, where's an all-powerful mass exorcism spell, etc, etc. And I know people are gonna be like "You can't just give everyone their own Meteor Swarm," which is partly true, but then just make it do less damage, or something. Make the support spell options more attractive.

Lot of real estate left untouched.

Tasha's does add Sunburst as a cleric spell. 150' range, 60' radius, 12d6 radiant damage & blind for 1 minute, Con save for half damage and to negate blinding. Re-save at end of each turn to remove blindness.

That's about it, though. The other 8th level spells are Holy Aura (good), Control Weather, Earthquake, and Antimagic Field (self only), which are all very specific.
At 9th level they have 2 forms of plane shifting, two heals, and a super resurrection, and that's it. Literally nothing that does a direct contribution to destroying enemies.

Upcasting is always an option, but it feels risky to burn a 9th level slot on "Upcast Inflict Wounds for 12d10 damage" unless you have a specific build that supports crit-fishing or something.

[Eldariel]

It's partially a legacy thing: Clerics haven't actually had 9th level spells for more than 2 editions and thus there are just a way smaller number of them than for other classes. Further, very few are iconic: there's True Resurrection, Mass Heal, Gate, Astral Projection, and that's about it. To be fair, both Gate (just go to a pocket dimension and call your target to a well-prepared death or summon something truly awe-inspiring) and Astral Projection (basically "attack a location with disposable bodies, try again as many times as you want for 1100gp" or "replicate our magic items and go to town") are pretty great.

However, in this edition they do have some pretty good upcast options, which do virtually up the variety: level 8 Summon Celestial has 4 attacks (+11ish for 2d6+10ish at 150'/600'ish) and level 9 Conjure Celestial can get a Hollyphant, which is just stupid-useful (portable Globe of Invulnerability plus Teleport without Error plus super-Polymorph (printed as Shapechange but too restricted to really call such) plus Heal plus Bless plus Banishment. Just an incredibly useful creature all around).

There's also something to say for simple Spirit Guardians VIII or IX: 8d8 or 9d8 with the chance to double dip (if someone shoves a creature in on another turn or if you shove someone in on your turn, the creature takes damage from being shoved in [and potentially shoved out and in again] and then again at the start of their turn) is actually not bad. Same goes for Banishment VIII: being able to cast it on 5 creatures simultaneously means a lot of saves and some probable fails even against targets with generally good Cha-saves. Etherealness also upcasts pretty well to level 8: getting a party go to with you makes the spell way more powerful.

[Foolwise]

Level 20 channel divinity feature fills in a few gaps.
Bards don't have a long 9th level spell list either.

I would treat Lv 20 Divine Intervention like Wish. Any 8th lv or lower spell that their deity can access is automatic. Other requests are DM dependant.

Bards have Magical Secrets which gives them access to every 9th lv spell.

[JackPhoenix]

Astral Projection (basically "attack a location with disposable bodies, try again as many times as you want for 1100gp" or "replicate our magic items and go to town") are pretty great.

Where are you getting those disposable bodies? Are you assuming anything interesting is on the astral plane? The projection doesn't work anywhere else.

[LudicSavant]

Tasha's does add Sunburst as a cleric spell. 150' range, 60' radius, 12d6 radiant damage & blind for 1 minute, Con save for half damage and to negate blinding. Re-save at end of each turn to remove blindness.

That's about it, though. The other 8th level spells are Holy Aura (good), Control Weather, Earthquake, and Antimagic Field (self only), which are all very specific.

Tasha's also adds Summon Celestial, which happens to work well in an 8th level spell slot.

[Psyren]

Where are you getting those disposable bodies? Are you assuming anything interesting is on the astral plane? The projection doesn't work anywhere else.

Sure it does. When you go through a portal to a new plane, your original bodies are brought with you, but you don't actually have to enter them - you can stay in the astral copy for as long as the spell lasts, and if the copy is killed, you return to your body safe and sound.

[KorvinStarmast]

I would treat Lv 20 Divine Intervention like Wish. Any 8th lv or lower spell that their deity can access is automatic. Other requests are DM dependant.

Bards have Magical Secrets which gives them access to every 9th lv spell. Not quite: it gives them a chance to choose 2, that's not the same as having access to every one since all others are now foreclosed once that choice is made.

Clerics operate as prepared casters: they can swap 9th level spells in and out on a long rest. (Or even choose not to prepare any 9ths that day).

As I ponder the OP's question, I wonder at why Cleric's don't have foresight as a spell. :smallconfused:
Any ideas on that? They have a variety of divination spells.

[Angelalex242]

Divine Intervention isn't Wish.

Wish is an arcane caster trying to alter reality on his own. He's an amateur doing amateur hour.

Divine Intervention is a professional (The deity) fulfilling the Deity's own interests and aims.

Thus, a deity doesn't screw up the way a Wizard does, but the deity's goals may not be the same as the cleric. Indeed, a Deity may take a divine intervention from a Cleric to fulfill some side goals the deity had and couldn't get away with doing without a cleric getting a successful divine intervention off.

[Foolwise]

Mechanically I would treat DI similar to Wish. If the player asks to cast any 8th lv cleric spell or lower, then that's automatic yes- provided their deity has access to the magic. For example, some deities do not have access to necromancy magic, thus necro cleric spells are off limits in that case. If the deity can cast non-cleric spells, then those spells are on the table, etc.

If the player asks for anything else, then that falls on the DM to determine if the request is something the deity can and/or is willing to fulfill. But the player wouldn't suffer the risk of not being able to ask for DI again. They would just lose their one chance for the day.

So while not as versatile as other casters, DI should give a Lv 20 cleric a once per week free cast of any cleric spell 8th or lower with potentially other class spell options, dependent on their deity.

[Foolwise]

Not quite: it gives them a chance to choose 2, that's not the same as having access to every one since all others are now foreclosed once that choice is made.

I feel like this is six one way, half dozen the other.

Sure Bards only get 2 picks, but it is from every class list. But w/o my books, I believe the other spells known casters get 1 new spell from 17th to 20th, so they can have a max of 4 9th lv spells limited to their own class list.

Fair trade off (excluding wizards)

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like this is six one way, half dozen the other.

Sure Bards only get 2 picks, but it is from every class list. But w/o my books, I believe the other spells known casters get 1 new spell from 17th to 20th, so they can have a max of 4 9th lv spells limited to their own class list. For a cleric whose entire 9th level list has 5 spells, at 17th the option is to pick from any of them.
OP seems to feel that the list itself is lackluster. We may be digressing a bit :smallsmile:
(And you've got me thinking about "why wouldn't a cleric get foresight if a druid does?"
I can't arrive at an answer.

[Saelethil]

For a cleric whose entire 9th level list has 5 spells, at 17th the option is to pick from any of them.
OP seems to feel that the list itself is lackluster. We may be digressing a bit :smallsmile:
(And you've got me thinking about "why wouldn't a cleric get foresight if a druid does?"
I can't arrive at an answer.

There are a number of high level spell missing from the Cleric list that I would expect someone who can literally call upon the wrath of a god to have access to

[Foolwise]

For a cleric whose entire 9th level list has 5 spells, at 17th the option is to pick from any of them.
OP seems to feel that the list itself is lackluster. We may be digressing a bit :smallsmile:
(And you've got me thinking about "why wouldn't a cleric get foresight if a druid does?"
I can't arrive at an answer.

My belief is this is WotC's way of balancing spells known vs. spells prepared classes. Cleric and Druid can pick any of their 9th lv spells each day so they get less to choose from over classes that must choose which spell to know and stick with it.

[Psyren]

Give it time y'all, 5e will eventually become as bloated with spells as 3e. The core classes will reap the benefits.

[Thunderous Mojo]

As I ponder the OP's question, I wonder at why Cleric's don't have foresight as a spell.

I would include that question on a WotC Survey, in the free response portion. Foresight is a spell that is Excellently well themed to be on the Cleric spell list.

[Snowbluff]

Give it time y'all, 5e will eventually become as bloated with spells as 3e. The core classes will reap the benefits.
Either way, the cleric list has been slow growing, with Fizban's not adding any IIRC. Clerics getting domains through to 9th would be up there with sorcerer getting bloodline spells on each bloodline for my wishlist. :smalltongue:

[Foolwise]

Either way, the cleric list has been slow growing, with Fizban's not adding any IIRC.

Fizban added 7 spells.
Sorcerers and Wizards get access to all 7.
Bards and Druids can claim 2.
Artificer, Ranger, and Warlock get 1.

I guess it is fitting the divine casters were shutout since Fizban also kneecapped draconic deities.

[Amnestic]

Using Divine Intervention to permanently add better spells to my spell list :smallcool: