"Don't Screw This Up."

[Ionathus]

Then he added, "no pressure, though," which I thought was nice. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html)

It's been a month or two since we argued about Redcloak so I thought we could get back on this merry-go-round once again!

In Jirix's speech to Gobbotopia in #704, he recounts a (relatively) lengthy speech that The Dark One gave to him, telling him to lead the goblinoids via trade and logistics and diplomacy and intrigue. And then he told Jirix to return to "my true prophet." What's interesting about this fairly eloquent depiction is that it's the most The Dark One has ever spoken with one of his worshippers -- including Redcloak, who has never spoken to TDO (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1206.html).

I can't find a reason to doubt Jirix's word on this. He hasn't ever been deceptive like Redcloak, nor has he demonstrated sunk-cost thinking. The strip is a crayon drawing, which according to Word of Giant means it didn't necessarily happen 100% as depicted. But I don't believe Jirix is an unreliable narrator to the degree that he'd be lying about a divine revelation happening at all.

If that's the case, I find it very strange that TDO has never talked to his "true prophet" Redcloak, but willingly talked to Jirix and even gave him a message for Redcloak -- albeit a very blunt, unhelpful message.

What's going on here? Why hasn't TDO ever talked to his own high priest, even if just to encourage him? Why was he so quick to reach out to Jirix by comparison? Given how much attention was paid to it in #1206, I get the feeling we're supposed to think something's not quite right about his dynamic with Redcloak. I just don't know how to reconcile that with how he called Redcloak his "true prophet" and gave Jirix a message for him. Does TDO not have access to whatever Commune spell recently allowed Durkon to contact Thor? Was a death the only way he could get a message through?

Obviously the answer is that Redcloak's niece is actually the true prophet. But if that hypothetically weren't the case, what are your other thoughts?

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak never died, that's about the extent of it. Big Purple tells his High Priests (all of them) everything he deems they need to know (which is a lot more than any other mortal is told by the gods, barring Durkon (but then, the extra intel he received was something Big Purple doesn't know)). Jirix conveniently died and was raised so he could act as a messenger. Redcloak, in the meantime admits he never even tried calling the Boss, and even if he called, what was Big Purple supposed to say? He can't tell Redcloak more than he already knows and he can give the green guy all the feedback he needs to carry on in the form of spells granted.

Further, Thor only told anything to his single most important cleric after he died as well, although Durkon knew the lore of the Gates long before that. Why is Big Purple worse than Thor for not going the extra mile?

[RatElemental]

The thing that really turns all of this into a tangled mess is the fact that Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer, so maybe she was casting commune every night, but if she was why didn't she just say she tried to commune with her god every night instead?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

[Metastachydium]

Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer

Which is presumably something Redcloak never did (because he knew a crazy amount of stuff already). Case closed?


And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

The Oracle is not a cleric and we don't know that he's ever talked to Tiamat.

[Fyraltari]

My guess is that Redcloak has, more or less consciously, avoided having a real talk with the Dark One because he's afraid that his boss doesn't approve of his actions (like sending goblins to die, serving Xykon and murdering Right-Eye) or that Right-Eye was right about the Dark One and that none of this is actually going to help the goblinoids.


The thing that really turns all of this into a tangled mess is the fact that Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer, so maybe she was casting commune every night, but if she was why didn't she just say she tried to commune with her god every night instead?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.

Even assuming that wasn't flowery language for using divination magic, Loki only bothered answering once he had a need for her and only gave her the bare minimum of information she needed to be of use to him.

[mjasghar]

As a LE deity with part of his portfolio being justice for goblinoids, I suspect the Dark One has a more Neutral facet that lets him more easily take the worship of Neutral goblinoids. So he puts on a show of the velvet glove but inside is the spiked iron gauntlet.
As part of this he uses his Redcloak agents as deniable assets. So, they get zapped with the Plan at the start and then do lots of terrible things. And he can turn around and say he never told them to do that specific atrocity, because he deliberately never answers their Communes. Plausible deniability. The Redcloak is dismissed as a rogue agent and the negotiator is put forward as the face of the regime. Which makes sense if you think Wrong Eye will end up dead at the end of this (most likely aged to death as he either rebels or succeeds and the Mantle is taken away/disintegrates as no longer needed.

[Carl]

My guess is that Redcloak has, more or less consciously, avoided having a real talk with the Dark One...

Yeah but when he put on the cloak for the first time he got a huge info dump, presumably direct from the Dark One. And him and his brother where adventuring around for a long time before they ran into and recruited Xykon. It wasn't like he couldn't have tried to have such a conversation with the Dark One to help in finding an arcane caster they needed so badly.

I have to wonder. Did that cloak actually come from the Dark One, Redcloak and everyone else assumes it did, but everyone, Redcloak included got that info from the cloak info dump. No one besides Jirnx that we know of has ever actually spoken to the Dark One so in theory someone could be pulling a fast one and Jirnx could have been telling a pre-decided lie to Redcloak. Would explain why a supposedly vengeance driven god who doesn't care about his people would be telling Jrinx to engage in battle of diplomacy, policy making, e.t.c. It's like he's got a split personality or somthing.

Not sure i buy it but it's definitely an interesting thought. Also have to wonder in retrospect if jrinx going after the demon roaches was entirely coincidence. pretty sure from a hint dropped in SoD that they're how the ICC found out about the gates. If the Dark One is aware of them it would make sense to eliminate the spies in the midst. Hmmm, ICC manipulating the goblins and Redcloak would make sense but the timeline doesn't fit, they didn't find out about it till long after the cloak came into existence. Hmm whats everyone else's thoughts?

[Fishman]

I think the more simple explanation is that there are simply limits to how much information the gods can impart on their followers. The rules of the game simply prevent them from being so outright direct in most cases, with the best infodumps coming from loopholes. I mean, "Don't Screw This Up" isn't exactly a high-precision direct command, even still.

[Carl]

I think the more simple explanation is that there are simply limits to how much information the gods can impart on their followers. The rules of the game simply prevent them from being so outright direct in most cases, with the best infodumps coming from loopholes. I mean, "Don't Screw This Up" isn't exactly a high-precision direct command, even still.

Thor allready made it clear when he took Durkon and Minrah to see the markers that any such limits are a result of agreements between the gods. Not hard limits set by the nature of the gods. And that the Dark One is not bound by any of those agreements.

[Peelee]

Thor allready made it clear when he took Durkon and Minrah to see the markers that any such limits are a result of agreements between the gods. Not hard limits set by the nature of the gods. And that the Dark One is not bound by any of those agreements.

TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

TDO can only talk to Redcloak by a face to face meeting in the afterlife or by Commune, which is rarely answered by the gods from all indications. Redcloak already knows exactly what TDO wants from him thanks to the Crimson Mantle. Seems like TDO had a little extra push for him after Gobbotopia, but also seems like Reddie stopped trying to Commune by that point, and Jirix delivered the message just fine.

[Ionathus]

Which is presumably something Redcloak never did (because he knew a crazy amount of stuff already). Case closed?

Given his reaction in 1206, I find it hard to believe he's never even tried Communing or even just openly praying to TDO to give some guidance. He's his high priest and supposedly on his most important mission...I think the lack of communication is supposed to be suspicious to us.


As a LE deity with part of his portfolio being justice for goblinoids, I suspect the Dark One has a more Neutral facet that lets him more easily take the worship of Neutral goblinoids. So he puts on a show of the velvet glove but inside is the spiked iron gauntlet.
As part of this he uses his Redcloak agents as deniable assets. So, they get zapped with the Plan at the start and then do lots of terrible things. And he can turn around and say he never told them to do that specific atrocity, because he deliberately never answers their Communes. Plausible deniability. The Redcloak is dismissed as a rogue agent and the negotiator is put forward as the face of the regime. Which makes sense if you think Wrong Eye will end up dead at the end of this (most likely aged to death as he either rebels or succeeds and the Mantle is taken away/disintegrates as no longer needed.

This is currently the most plausible alternative theory to me. I think the "rogue agent" narrative might make sense, or at least fit with TDO being callous about his followers' lives (just like Redcloak!). But then again, who would TDO be making excuses to? He apparently refuses to talk to any of the other gods (dropped out of the private chat group) and doesn't even need to worry about their binding rules.


TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

I think that's only been stated in the context of the Gates -- something that is not known by enough people to "bind by belief". I don't recall any instances where people claim the gods can't talk to mortals about other stuff if they so choose. It's just that the gods are busy and those people are unimportant. But Redcloak is important, and his mission seems to be very important to TDO, and TDO isn't even bound by God Law to not blab about the Gates. I don't see why he wouldn't be getting more guidance or even just feedback.

[Metastachydium]

Given his reaction in 1206, I find it hard to believe he's never even tried Communing or even just openly praying to TDO to give some guidance. He's his high priest and supposedly on his most important mission...I think the lack of communication is supposed to be suspicious to us.

All no. 1206 explicitly establishes is that they have never talked directly and Redcloak is trying to "give him his space." Doesn't sound like he pesters Big Purple a lot, now does it?
Also, like I said, other gods, Thor included, neglect to communicate with their most important mortal assets as well and that without giving these assets an infodump through an artifact as the Dark One does. I fail to see how Big Purple is eminently suspicious.

Edit: As for prayers, we know that his prayers are normally about establishing a nonverbal spiritual link rather than talky-talking (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html).


he deliberately never answers their Communes

The only god about whom we know that he kind of does that is Thor. Is he a callous, double-crossing LE tyrant as well?

[Rogan]

About gods talking to their Priests, we know Hel gave Durkon* instructions and generally was communicative towards him.

Do we know how she did this?

[Fyraltari]

About gods talking to their Priests, we know Hel gave Durcon* instructions and generally was communicative towards him.

Do we know how she did this?

She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.

[hamishspence]

Given how limited the actual Commune spell is,

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/commune.htm


I'd speculate the the spell is just used to send a "are you going to start talking to me?" question, getting a "Yes" reply back, and then the deity uses their own powers to communicate properly.



Remote Communication plus Remote Sensing allow the deity to send the messages and hear anything said back.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineCharacteristics
Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.

[Rogan]

She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.

Is this your theory or do you have a source for this?
(I don't want to imply that this answer is wrong, I'm just curious if / where it was explained)

[Bacon Elemental]

It is an interesting question!

Just for everyone's refreshment, here's the relevant lines from 1206


Panel 9

Redcloak: Wait, he told you this? In person? You actually met Thor??
Durkon: Aye! 'E gave me this mission 'imself!

Panel 10

Redcloak: …
Redcloak: I've never spoken to my god. Not directly.

Panel 11

Durkon: Oh!
Durkon: Well I'm sure 'e's just…you know, busy. Wit work an' stuff.

Panel 12

Redcloak: I know. I try to give him his space.
Durkon: 'E prob'bly just wants ta take things slow. See how they go.
Redcloak: I've been his high priest for 35 years.
Durkon: …Mebbe 'e dinnae want to ruin tha friendship?

Redcloak does seem extremely surprised at the idea that direct communication with Thor in this matter was even plausible for Durkon (Who isn't a high priest at all), and I'm not sure that "I try to give him his space" ought be interpreted as "I never call" so much as "He never responded and I've stopped trying in case I'm angering him by being pestersome".

But it feels like a very deliberate set of words to include one way or another, comic joke aside, and I wouldnt be surprised if the next panel set we get of Team Evil ends with redcloak casting Communion, all alone.

[Fyraltari]

Also checking back, the effect of the Commune used with Thor (Durkon appears with a yellow aura) do not match those of the spell used with Hel (a "windo" appears with a yellow aura "frame").

[Ionathus]

Redcloak does seem extremely surprised at the idea that direct communication with Thor in this matter was even plausible for Durkon (Who isn't a high priest at all), and I'm not sure that "I try to give him his space" ought be interpreted as "I never call" so much as "He never responded and I've stopped trying in case I'm angering him by being pestersome".

But it feels like a very deliberate set of words to include one way or another, comic joke aside, and I wouldnt be surprised if the next panel set we get of Team Evil ends with redcloak casting Communion, all alone.

Yeah, "he never responded so I stopped trying" was my read on that statement, as well.

I mean, it's hard for me to imagine Redcloak went through all the tragedy and mistakes of SoD and didn't make any angry/desperate prayers to TDO to help him out or give him some advice.

[Metastachydium]

Yeah, "he never responded so I stopped trying" was my read on that statement, as well.

I mean, it's hard for me to imagine Redcloak went through all the tragedy and mistakes of SoD and didn't make any angry/desperate prayers to TDO to help him out or give him some advice.

That's a conjecture, if a reasonable one. But we don't know that he ever called Big Purple, we never saw him pray (except for spells) and we do know that he's trying to give the Dark One his space. The rest is speculation.

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

[Rogan]

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

And on the third hand, we have a god(dess) who was on speaking terms with her newly created high priest right away.

So it's impossible to say if The Dark One ignored Redcloak or Red didn't bother to try.
My personal interpretation was, TDO didn't answer the calls when red tried and now red doesn't even try anymore. But I can't prove this really is what happened, of course.

[Peelee]

I think that's only been stated in the context of the Gates -- something that is not known by enough people to "bind by belief".

That's two different things. The gods made an agreement to have a communications blackout around the rifts.

Completely separately, the people may believe that the gods do not or cannot just directly talk to anyone they want at anytime they want about anything they want. Durkon thinks that lightning storms are a sign of Thor trying to communicate, which would be strange if Thor could just say "Dear Durkon. Go with the cloaked person, it's all good."

This belief about all gods generally would almost certainly hamstring the Dark One with regards to chatting with Reddie, or any high priest, about anything, let alone the Gates. And we know that TDO already let info about the Gates/Rifts out, since that's part of the info package granted by the Crimson Mantle he's not in the gods personal agreement on that so he totally told his followers about it in a way that he could - via an artifact that grants knowledge.

[Carl]

TDO is, however, bound by belief. If people believe that the gods cannot directly communicate any thing they want, which seems pretty likely, TDO can't.

TDO can only talk to Redcloak by a face to face meeting in the afterlife or by Commune, which is rarely answered by the gods from all indications. Redcloak already knows exactly what TDO wants from him thanks to the Crimson Mantle. Seems like TDO had a little extra push for him after Gobbotopia, but also seems like Reddie stopped trying to Commune by that point, and Jirix delivered the message just fine.

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.


That's a conjecture, if a reasonable one. But we don't know that he ever called Big Purple, we never saw him pray (except for spells) and we do know that he's trying to give the Dark One his space. The rest is speculation.

On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot. We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

[Rogan]

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.



Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot. We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

It's also nearly impossible that TDO could not talk about the gates. This is a special deal between the old gods. The normal people by definition don't know about these things at all (rare exceptions notwithstanding) so they can't influence the gods with their belief in that regards.


Durkon told Thor he never answers the commune spell. Thor doesn't correct him there, instead he promises to set a special ringtone. Accepting Durkons calls is the exception. Not answering is the rule.

[Metastachydium]

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot.

Equine faeces. Rubyrock is the highest ranking cleric he has, but presently she's largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, Durkon's the one who knows about the Gates, tries to protect them and is tasked with bringing over the Big Purple/Redcloak tandem to the slightly less dark side so that the Snarl issue can be permanently fixed.


We also don't know how often if any they've talked previously, one very early jokish strip involving a colon tumour aside we've never seen if he even tries. The fact that he picked that as an option maybe suggests he does do that somtimes. We also don't know how much if any he knew about Odin's prophecy. His reaction on the cloud scene certainly implies he didn't have the full picture until it unfolded.

V. Rogan's post above.

[Peelee]

I think others have touched on this fairly well, but whilst it's true they're bound by belief to some degree there's no real evidence of this being able to limit him in that way and we have things like the prophecy that got Durkon exiled that tell us the gods do communicate things somtimes.
I never said gods can't communicate. I said gods can't just have a chat whenever they feel like. Red loak doesn't seem to need much communication except to get his but in gear after gobbotopia, and TDO seemed to communicate that just fine.

Um Thor's most important cleric is his high priest at the godsmoot.
That's the highest ranked cleric in the Church of Thor. Which is not necessarily his most important cleric.

[mjasghar]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work. The example shown in comic was part humorous and partly showing Thor as the party type and partly plot device. Thor is more the chaotic forgetful type - it’s not done on purpose.
Wrt to the plausible deniability - the Plan requires negotiation at its end even if there’s no communication atm. So Redcloaks are disposable extremists deliberately set out to create a situation and then disposed off. To do what they have to do they do not seem to compromise in the slightest even to the extent of accepting self-mutilation. So it makes sense they won’t be around for the negotiations where some compromise will be needed.

[Peelee]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Ah, the idealistic optimism of youth. :smalltongue:

[Rogan]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Do you mean the recent use of Commune?
Durkon was specifically asked to use this spell when he was dead and he was promised a reply.
So of course he expected things to work.

Or do you mean some other event? If yes, can you please link it or give us the number?

[Metastachydium]

Since Durkon used the Commune spell that indicates, to me at least, that he expected it to work.

Then why did he complain that Thor never answers those?


The example shown in comic was part humorous and partly showing Thor as the party type and partly plot device. Thor is more the chaotic forgetful type - it’s not done on purpose.

Thor claims to remember everyone who ever worshipped him and knows the deepest secrets of a comparatively inconsequential cleric of his, Minrah. One could easily argue that this clashes with the idea that he can't even keep track of his high level clerics.


Wrt to the plausible deniability - the Plan requires negotiation at its end even if there’s no communication atm. So Redcloaks are disposable extremists deliberately set out to create a situation and then disposed off. To do what they have to do they do not seem to compromise in the slightest even to the extent of accepting self-mutilation. So it makes sense they won’t be around for the negotiations where some compromise will be needed.

Again, that's not a fact. That's merely a theory you like and I don't.
The thing is, we have no clear idea whatsoever of why Big Purple does his stuff the way he does.

[Ionathus]

The longer I think about it, the less the "rogue agent" approach seems like a likely play. Hard to imagine the end goal there: "whoops, Other Gods, that rebel goblin went and cast The Ritual, and now I have control of the Snarl's portal. Golly, how embarrassing! Well, now that I have it..." You can't really pass off an active hostage scenario as a serendipitous accident.


On the other hand, we do know a god who routinely ignored his most important cleric's prayers until the day he died. It's Thor.

I could be wrong, but it feels like you're setting up a "TDO's silence is no worse than Thor's" argument here, which is confusing to me. I'm not saying TDO's lack of response to Redcloak is bad or shows flawed judgment, and I'm not comparing his behavior to other gods', except for the purpose of context.

I'm saying I find TDO's lack of response STRANGE, especially given that he talked to Jirix and even gave a message for Redcloak and called him his "true prophet." If he agrees with what RC's doing, why doesn't he talk directly? We've seen Thor and Hel talk directly to their clerics.

This isn't criticism. It's speculation.

[Metastachydium]

I could be wrong, but it feels like you're setting up a "TDO's silence is no worse than Thor's" argument here, which is confusing to me. I'm not saying TDO's lack of response to Redcloak is bad or shows flawed judgment, and I'm not comparing his behavior to other gods', except for the purpose of context.

I'm saying I find TDO's lack of response STRANGE, especially given that he talked to Jirix and even gave a message for Redcloak and called him his "true prophet." If he agrees with what RC's doing, why doesn't he talk directly? We've seen Thor and Hel talk directly to their clerics.

This isn't criticism. It's speculation.

My point is that it's not strange or suspicious at all, unless Thor's behaviour counts as strange and suspicious as well, because talking to one's clerics, important as they may be, is the exception rather than the norm. Jirix and Durkon are not good examples, because both of them only got to talk with their respective gods after they died, which Redcloak never did.
I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And if is to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.

[RatElemental]

The longer I think about it, the less the "rogue agent" approach seems like a likely play. Hard to imagine the end goal there: "whoops, Other Gods, that rebel goblin went and cast The Ritual, and now I have control of the Snarl's portal. Golly, how embarrassing! Well, now that I have it..." You can't really pass off an active hostage scenario as a serendipitous accident.


But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.

[Metastachydium]

But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.

The main problem with the "plausible deniability" scenario is that the deniability is not at all plausible. Without their spells, clerics are basically warriors with a worse BAB, and the spells come from the cleric's god, so it's not like he couldn't have stopped the "rogue agent" any time he saw fit.

Also, the Dark One is not on speaking terms with the other gods and as far as he knows, he has nothing to lose. Why on earth would he put effort into engineering a scenario where he can "save face"?

[Peelee]

But if the rodcloak plan fails, the Dark One can claim the bearer of the crimson mantle was a rogue agent to save face with the other gods. Don't need to save face if you've already won.

Getting spells every day is tacit approval.

[Jasdoif]

She created Durkon* with some innate knowledge (like the place of the Godsmoot) and he gave her regular updates through Commune.Is this your theory or do you have a source for this?
(I don't want to imply that this answer is wrong, I'm just curious if / where it was explained)You're probably looking for this (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056).




They're vampires. This is what vampires are: a negative energy consciousness created in the shape of your own worst impulses, stuffed into your dead body to animate it.So it did not exist before this instantiation? This is its first experience?Correct, though obviously it came "pre-loaded" with certain knowledge, like language and whatever Hel told it to do as she was shoving it in there.

[Rogan]

You're probably looking for this (https://twitter.com/RichBurlew/status/963533605002797056).



Thanks for the quote. But I was wondering more about the way Durkon gave his regular updates.

I don't think a spell was specified in comic and I somehow thought it was a side effect of praying for new spells. Durkon was talking to Thor in the beginning, but this was a joke only.

[Carl]

Regarding Durkon's importance. Up until he found out about the gates during the Azure City arc he was just another random cleric. We have no idea how often he's spoken to his high priest in the time thats passed since they became High Priest, (to say nothing of the previous one). Also Durkon notes during the desert arc that he doesn't think asking Thor for help will do any good, (though i think he says he will try, then of course Haley, Elan, and V get kidnapped and the things occupy their attention so he may never have got the chance)

Also the mission Thor gives Durkon took some real explaining time, if he never normally prepares commune more than once Thor doesn't exactly have the time he need to explain it all to him, (not to mention he can't show him the gravestones which Thor seemed to think as really important). So they absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.

[Rogan]

We have no idea how often he's spoken to his high priest in the time thats passed since they became High Priest

We have a pretty good idea. He never had any contact to high priestess Rubyrock. He didn't even know she got this position.
Durkons reward in Azure city was a diplomatic mission to the Dwarven land, to ask the former HP to end his exile. He never got the answer of HP Ruby, where she told him his exile was over and only learned this later, after his own death.



So they (Thor and Durkon) absolutely could have spoken in between on rare, (doesn't normally answer Durkon after all), occasions. For that matter the fact that Thor can set a "ringtone" for a specific Cleric implies he has a system in place so that he can talk to specific Clerics of import more regularly. That implies he does talk directly to some of his clerics.

Thor doesn't answer the calls rarely, <he> nev'r answer<s> those! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1148.html)

So no, they were not talking before Durkon died.

I also disagree with your conclusion regarding the implications of the ability to set ringtones, but I can't give a definite answer here. It just seems like Thor is known to ignore calls and in order to establish communication, something out of the ordinary has to happen. Maybe the high priest can talk to him from time to time, perhaps in order to let them know a godsmoot is necessary, but there might be another way.

[Fyraltari]

It should be noted that before Durkon learned of the Gates, he was already "special": He was the subject of a prophecy by Odin that Thor assumed his dad made for a good reason. It's possible Thor ghosted Durkon to avoid messing up Odin's plan.

[Rogan]

It should be noted that before Durkon learned of the Gates, he was already "special": He was the subject of a prophecy by Odin that Thor assumed his dad made for a good reason. It's possible Thor ghosted Durkon to avoid messing up Odin's plan.

This would imply that Durkon had a special ringtone already. The "don't take this call" tone. Possibly mute.

I think Thor would have told Durkon about this, since Thor seems to take interest in his followers. Saying "I'm sorry I never accepted your calls before, but it could have messed up your destiny. I will listen now" would feel more in line with the way Thor acted around Durkon and Minrah. At least that's my impression. Might be wrong.

[Ionathus]

My point is that it's not strange or suspicious at all, unless Thor's behaviour counts as strange and suspicious as well, because talking to one's clerics, important as they may be, is the exception rather than the norm. Jirix and Durkon are not good examples, because both of them only got to talk with their respective gods after they died, which Redcloak never did.
I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And if is to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.

I still don't think that the situations are close enough to explain the silence. Thor is established as chaotic and not very organized, plus Durkon's quest is only one of many his followers are undertaking, so Thor's got a lot of irons in the fire, so to speak, and has to split his attention. TDO's situation is much more like Hel's -- she has a very specific plan to obtain more power/influence for herself, and it all hinges upon this singular cleric, so she talks to him all the time and gets updates, provides guidance, etc.

We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.

As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.

[KorvinStarmast]

If that's the case, I find it very strange that TDO has never talked to his "true prophet" Redcloak, but willingly talked to Jirix and even gave him a message for Redcloak -- albeit a very blunt, unhelpful message. TDO spoke to RC through Jirix. Divine beings do stuff like that with some frequency. (See also Cumae, Delphi, Dodona (in the Greek Traditions) as places where Oracles are used as a conduit for deities to speak to mortals).


What's going on here? Why hasn't TDO ever talked to his own high priest, even if just to encourage him? Maye he's not a kinder, gentler deity. "You are wearing an artifact, now go out there and do stuff for me!" seems to be TDO's attitude.

Why was he so quick to reach out to Jirix by comparison? Quick? That doesn't scan for me. Jirix died, TDO was going to see him when he showed up in that afterlife, and IIRC raise dead (the spell) had been granted to RC who brought Jirix back.

Given how much attention was paid to it in #1206, I get the feeling we're supposed to think something's not quite right about his dynamic with Redcloak. What do you mean, not quite right? TDO does things his way. Who are you, or I, mere mortals, to say what is the correct way for TDO to interact with his clerics?

I just don't know how to reconcile that with how he called Redcloak his "true prophet" and gave Jirix a message for him. See above (in re Oracles). Deities speak to their servants in whatever ways they find suitable.

Equine faeces. Rubyrock is the highest ranking cleric he has, but presently she's largely irrelevant. Meanwhile, Durkon's the one who knows about the Gates, tries to protect them and is tasked with bringing over the Big Purple/Redcloak tandem to the slightly less dark side so that the Snarl issue can be permanently fixed. And to put the cherry on top of this sundae, Thor gave Durkon some special tools (gloves, hammer) to go forth and do great things.

Ah, the idealistic optimism of youth. :smalltongue: Someone is channeling their inner Sidgi. :smallwink:

[Metastachydium]

I still don't think that the situations are close enough to explain the silence. Thor is established as chaotic and not very organized, plus Durkon's quest is only one of many his followers are undertaking, so Thor's got a lot of irons in the fire, so to speak, and has to split his attention. TDO's situation is much more like Hel's -- she has a very specific plan to obtain more power/influence for herself, and it all hinges upon this singular cleric, so she talks to him all the time and gets updates, provides guidance, etc.

No, Hel's situation is nothing like Big Purple's. We have seen all of Hel's clerics ever during this iteration of the world. Meanwhile, Big Purple is the deity of a very populous species with lots of clerics. He does have other duties, the Plan's just more important (just as saving the world forever should be more important for Thor than soaking his feet).


We've been shown Hel, Loki, and Thor all interacting with their followers without the necessity of killing & resurrecting a messenger...I feel like there's something extra going on with TDO or else he'd be doing the same thing.

We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket. Meanwhile, Loki only ever gave a "go there" direction to Hilgya because it was in his interest. Big Purple told a lot more to Redcloak and his predecessors through the Mantle and gave them enough context to see the bigger picture. Loki, on the other hand, basically tricked Hilgya.


As a side note, in SoD when Redcloak portrayed TDO as an eloquent and diplomatic leader, that could be reinterpreted as Redcloak having rose-colored glasses...but what's interesting is that Jirix portrayed him in the same light and with the same eloquent personality. Either Jirix was lying too, or TDO really is like that - even if he's also a vicious warlord.

Yeah. And I like that.

[Ionathus]

Maye he's not a kinder, gentler deity.

No argument from me. I never said he was.


What do you mean, not quite right? TDO does things his way. Who are you, or I, mere mortals, to say what is the correct way for TDO to interact with his clerics?

That wasn't what I meant. Not quite right doesn't mean "I'm criticizing your behavior." It means "something doesn't add up about all this, there's a factor going on here that we don't know about, and I wonder what it is."


Deities speak to their servants in whatever ways they find suitable.

Jirix died, TDO was going to see him when he showed up in that afterlife, and IIRC raise dead (the spell) had been granted to RC who brought Jirix back.

This is the discrepancy that I'm fixating on. Deities choose to speak however they want, but I find it strange that Redcloak (High Priest, most important divine mission) has never spoken to TDO directly when Jirix (subservient, diplomatic leader) has. I don't think every cleric is automatically guaranteed a chat with their god while waiting for their resurrection, so why did TDO find it so important to speak to Jirix? Jirix would've stayed behind and been leader of Gobbotopia either way. So it does feel to me like TDO took a moment to be eloquent and encouraging with Jirix, when he didn't really need to. Which doesn't match with Redcloak's experience of him as an aloof, silent taskmaster.

My first instinct would be to say "oh, he just likes Jirix more than Redcloak." And maybe that's what's going on, maybe Redcloak is the eldest child who's held to a higher standard and has to do all the dirty work, while the younger child Jirix gets attention and support from Dad. But maybe it's something else. Maybe talking to a dead cleric is easy, because they're stopping by your house while you're home, whereas talking to a living cleric is like a Zoom video call with bad reception -- a lot of hassle for not much payoff.

Either way, I think it's demonstrated that Redcloak wishes he had more direct support/interaction with his deity, and I believe we will see this become important soon.


No, Hel's situation is nothing like Big Purple's. We have seen all of Hel's clerics ever during this iteration of the world. Meanwhile, Big Purple is the deity of a very populous species with lots of clerics. He does have other duties, the Plan's just more important (just as saving the world forever should be more important for Thor than soaking his feet).

We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket. Meanwhile, Loki only ever gave a "go there" direction to Hilgya because it was in his interest. Big Purple told a lot more to Redcloak and his predecessors through the Mantle and gave them enough context to see the bigger picture. Loki, on the other hand, basically tricked Hilgya.

I don't think we know enough to say "talking to a living cleric is ONLY possible if XYZ." The examples of cleric-to-god interactions in the comic seem to imply there are a number of ways to get in touch. I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often, but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.

Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.

[PontificatusRex]

I feel like folks are really overthinking this. Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.

It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think we know enough to say "talking to a living cleric is ONLY possible if XYZ." The examples of cleric-to-god interactions in the comic seem to imply there are a number of ways to get in touch.

And where did I say this is not the case?


I think it's much more demonstrated that the gods don't LISTEN to those clerics' attempts at communication very often,

Yes.


but I do believe they are possible because we've seen them happen.

See above.


Incidentally, how did Loki "trick" Hilgya? She asked to find Durkon and he told her where to go. That she first had to exorcise a vampire from his body doesn't change the fact that she still got to find and confront him and, according to her reaction, get what she personally needed out of it.

"Trick" might be a strong term. My point is, Big Purple tells his Bearers exactly what it is that they are expected to do. Loki ignored Hilgya right until the point when he became actively interested in killing "Durkon" (i.e. Greg) and then he sicced Hilgya on the Church of Hel without ever mentioing what that involves or who exactly she's sent after.

[Ionathus]

I feel like folks are really overthinking this.

Ah, so you've met us :smalltongue:


Gods don't communicate directly with living mortals except in very rare circumstances - usually in the "Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style. It's not just the agreement between them to keep the peace that stops them from doing so, it's just their nature.

It's going to be the case with ANY story involving deities - why don't they just solve the problem? Because the story isn't about them, it's about mortal people who are like us overcoming challenges. In Lord of the Rings, it's clear that the Valar want Sauron defeated, so why don't the help more than the occasional bit of luck or prophetic vision? Because that's not the way it works. Durkula was a unique case, otherwise characters have to just stumble around hoping they get it right just like in real life.

I never suggested that TDO ought to solve Redcloak's problems. I never even said that, in a vacuum, TDO's silence is in any way notable. Radio silence from deities seems to be par for the course in Stickverse.

My point is that breaking this radio silence to give Jirix encouragement he didn't seem to need, and give Redcloak an unhelpful secondhand reminder of the pressure that's on him, feels like it's implying/setting up something out of the ordinary.


And where did I say this is not the case?

We've seen Thor talk to a living cleric only once, and that was only possible because he died and was resurrected with instructions in his pocket.

Emphasis mine; maybe you weren't talking about it in the broader "physically capable" sense, but that's how I originally read it.


"Trick" might be a strong term. My point is, Big Purple tells his Bearers exactly what it is that they are expected to do. Loki ignored Hilgya right until the point when he became actively interested in killing "Durkon" (i.e. Greg) and then he sicced Hilgya on the Church of Hel without ever mentioing what that involves or who exactly she's sent after.

Yeah, each god interacts with their followers in a very on-brand way. As I said in my response to P-rex, the thing that's striking to me is how TDO has put out two personas: the Dark One that's demanding and aloof with his High Priest and expects him to just do his bidding without any nurturing/revelations, and the Dark One who directly reveals himself to a lower cleric just to inspire him on a much less warlike/aggressive mission.

Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.


Yeah. And I like that.
I didn't respond to this in my last post so I wanted to circle back: I really like that aspect too!

[Khay]

I've been mulling this topic over for a bit. (Slow day at work.) I think there's three main factors to consider here.

1.) Jirix is the only one to have had direct contact with the Dark One in many years.

Nobody else has talked directly to the Dark One in decades, as far as we know. Not Redcloak, and (importantly) not the other gods. It's been reinforced multiple times that the Dark One has been incommunicado for several decades. He asked Jirix to pass a message on to Redcloak, so he's taking an interest in what's happening in the material plane, which makes it even weirder that he won't talk to Redcloak directly. Hel, as a counter-example, was perfectly happy to chat to her minion. So we know that this communications blackout is, on some level, a choice.

Jirix also wasn't dead for very long. Probably less than an hour. In his own telling of the story, the Dark One appeared to him as soon as he appeared in the afterlife. So the Dark One isn't off on god business elsewhere, he's actively monitoring the situation. Plus, he's got a lot riding on this. What else is he doing, advising goblin dirt farmers somewhere?

2.) Jirix's encounter with the Dark One is presented in crayon form.

This meeting, which is the only scrap of information we have about the Dark One that isn't 30 years old, is explicitly framed as a story that Jirix is telling. That doesn't necessarily mean that Jirix is lying, but it opens the door to it not quite having been true. It's not third-person-omniscient but first-person-limited, and that's probably important.

In my opinion, the first two points hint that there's something wrong with the Dark One. He's dead, or imprisoned, or corrupted, or has been replaced with an impostor, or something. He either can't talk to Redcloak directly (because he's incapacitated) or he won't (because Redcloak would notice if something was wrong with the Dark One.) The Plan is running on autopilot, and the Dark One's clerics are tapping into a reservoir of leftover divine energy.

Jirix's testimony is the only evidence we have that the Dark One is around, and is who we believe he is. It seems to me that Jirix might've been corrupted as well, or he's lying, or whatever replaced the Dark One successfully deceived him, or maybe what came back after his resurrection wasn't Jirix.

However, there's a problem with this.

3.) Jirix is barely a character.

Jirix hasn't been seen for about a decade. When he was in the comic, he was a tertiary character in a side-plot. What do we actually know about him? Well, he's probably mid-level, and Xykon considers him fun. He's probably more Chaotic and/or has a higher Charisma stat than Redcloak. That's pretty much it.

If the Dark One wasn't actually around, it would be another huge twist. It would be another complication that would likely throw the plot in a different direction. It feels... strange to have this sort of thing hinge on the word of a character who's otherwise totally unimportant to the plot. Jirix could be an unreliable narrator, but he hasn't exactly been set up as one. You can do this sort of thing as an author, but I don't think OOTS is the kind of story that pivots on the actions of extremely minor NPCs that briefly appeared ten years ago.

So, TL;DR: No idea what's going on! But this is all very weird, and that's probably important.

[Metastachydium]

Emphasis mine; maybe you weren't talking about it in the broader "physically capable" sense, but that's how I originally read it.

What I meant was "his special ringtone came with the mission, and Thor didn't give him said mission until after he died, so were it not for his death, his calls would have ended up in the 'never answered' bin with all the others."


Yeah, each god interacts with their followers in a very on-brand way. As I said in my response to P-rex, the thing that's striking to me is how TDO has put out two personas: the Dark One that's demanding and aloof with his High Priest and expects him to just do his bidding without any nurturing/revelations, and the Dark One who directly reveals himself to a lower cleric just to inspire him on a much less warlike/aggressive mission.

Again, I'm pretty sure he would have revealed himself to Redcloak id he died and what the Mantle imparts with its Bearers is a bunch o' revelations, big time.
For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).


Both of those versions of the Dark One make sense in context. And I know that gods can behave differently in different circumstances...because regular mortals do that, too. But because Redcloak drew attention to it in #1206, I feel like we're going to find out something about this difference.

One way or the other, I'm sure we'll see.

[Ionathus]

I've been mulling this topic over for a bit. (Slow day at work.) I think there's three main factors to consider here.

<snip>

So, TL;DR: No idea what's going on! But this is all very weird, and that's probably important.

Thanks for your comments! I agree on Jirix's relative unimportance (although there's still a prevalent theory amongst forum readers that Jirix will assume the Crimson Mantle after Redcloak's character arc leads him to die without redemption), and that also makes me think he's more likely to have been honest in his revelation.

Also, the "TDO is actually dead/captured/missing" theory has never stuck for me, because like you said it'd be a weird confusing direction to take the story without any extra setup. Plus, I think if clerics are praying to a specific god they do actually need that god's active approval for their prepared spells. The Creed of the Stone is different, but theistic clerics do seem to need that actual back-and-forth from an extant god.


What I meant was "his special ringtone came with the mission, and Thor didn't give him said mission until after he died, so were it not for his death, his calls would have ended up in the 'never answered' bin with all the others."

Good to know, thanks for clarifying.


For all we know, not pestering Redcloak might as well be his way of expressing his satisfaction (if Red's doing evrything right, he doesn't need instructions).

Which is entirely possible, though it would mean that TDO is also not very in tune with his own High Priest, because his silence does seem to actually be a source of stress for Redcloak.

Before #1206, Redcloak's conversation with Jirix made total sense in the moment. It was only when I re-read it recently that I thought, hey, Redcloak has never spoken to The Dark One directly about anything, never gotten advice from him, never told him how things are going, and now we know that it bothers him! I wonder if Redcloak was masking some jealousy of Jirix in that moment.

:redcloak: Ugh, why couldn't *I* have gotten impaled by an iron prison bar?? Jirix has all the luck.

[Metastachydium]

I wonder if Redcloak was masking some jealousy of Jirix in that moment.

:redcloak: Ugh, why couldn't *I* have gotten impaled by an iron prison bar?? Jirix has all the luck.

Why, he definitely was! (Sadly, I can't think of a single character who could one-shot him with just a prison bar, so it'll probably remain a sweet, sweet dream.)

[Ionathus]

Depends -- is it a +5 Iron Prison Bar of Badassery?

Reminds me of the Holy Brick on a Rope from The Weekly Roll :smallbiggrin:

[Metastachydium]

Depends -- is it a +5 Iron Prison Bar of Badassery?

If O-Chul used one of those, the cagesmith definitely wasn't happy afterwards.

[Rogan]

Obviously, V had secretly cast greater magic wapon on the prison bar. Her direct attacks were just a distraction.

(Color blue to taste)

[KorvinStarmast]

I feel like folks are really overthinking this.
In other news, fish swim in water. :smallbiggrin:

"Cryptic prophecy with incomplete information" style.
Yeah, that's how prophecy is.
Wait, what's that? *There's a Mr Oedipus is on the phone, and he'd like to complain!* :smallcool:

[Lord Torath]

So no, they were not talking before Durkon died. "Yes, yes, praise me... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)" :smallbiggrin:

[Rogan]

"Yes, yes, praise me... (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0040.html)" :smallbiggrin:

I guess I should have specified "except early comic jokes"... well, that's my mistake.

But even if we don't ignore it, this was only about spell selection. Granting spells is something The Dark One does for Redcloak as well, so it's not an unfair advantage Durkon has.

[brian 333]

Hel had one cleric. Of course she answered its calls. Even after it made a few friends.

Thor and Loki have uncounted clerics. I'd imagine they get tired of answering calls, which is why they hire sec... devas to do the job.

But TDO has another issue:

Interacting on the mortal plane costs divine energy.

As a new deity, TDO must dole out spells to all his clerics so they can increase the amount of belief and worship he gets, with the goal of earning devotion and souls. This costs divine energy, and the largest single consumer of this energy is our buddy Redcloak. Granting a single 9th level spell consumes the energy of 81 first level spells, and we know RC isn't frugal with his casting.

Commune is not free. How much more does it cost for a diety to actually converse with a mortal?

Aside from the devotion granted by each goblinoid who was slain in RC's quest, has Redcloak actually spread the worship of or belief in TDO? Has he brought in a single new soul?

It seems to me that RC is not the only one investing heavily in a sunk cost fallacy.

It may be that, having spent so much already, there would need to be a really good reason for TDO to pay the roaming charges to talk to Redcloak.

[KorvinStarmast]

TDO running into TNSTAAFL made me grin.

There's no such thing as a free lunch, see R. A. Heinlein

[Fyraltari]

Commune is not free. How much more does it cost for a diety to actually converse with a mortal?

I am going to guess "exactly as much as to grant Redcloak any other spelk of the same level".

Edit: "Spelk" being, of course, a subspecies of elk with limited spellcasting abilities. They were made by the same wizard who came up with the owlbears in a vain attempt to recreate that success and re-ignite his carreer.

[Ionathus]

But TDO has another issue:

Interacting on the mortal plane costs divine energy.

As a new deity, TDO must dole out spells to all his clerics so they can increase the amount of belief and worship he gets, with the goal of earning devotion and souls. This costs divine energy, and the largest single consumer of this energy is our buddy Redcloak. Granting a single 9th level spell consumes the energy of 81 first level spells, and we know RC isn't frugal with his casting.

Commune is not free. How much more does it cost for a diety to actually converse with a mortal?

Aside from the devotion granted by each goblinoid who was slain in RC's quest, has Redcloak actually spread the worship of or belief in TDO? Has he brought in a single new soul?

It seems to me that RC is not the only one investing heavily in a sunk cost fallacy.

It may be that, having spent so much already, there would need to be a really good reason for TDO to pay the roaming charges to talk to Redcloak.

Interesting proposal! I hadn't considered the possibility that TDO simply doesn't have the juice to do some of these God Things.

My personal intuition is that talking to your direct worshippers wouldn't take more energy than granting even a 1st-level spell. Though maybe there's something else going on there.


Edit: "Spelk" being, of course, a subspecies of elk with limited spellcasting abilities. They were made by the same wizard who came up with the owlbears in a vain attempt to recreate that success and re-ignite his carreer.

The Sophomore Slump is particularly brutal for wizard schools...maybe you're on to something.

[Metastachydium]

Edit: "Spelk" being, of course, a subspecies of elk with limited spellcasting abilities. They were made by the same wizard who came up with the owlbears in a vain attempt to recreate that success and re-ignite his carreer.

Spelk
Spelks are oddly coloured, lumbering beasts resembling elks with a glint of malevolent intellect in their beastly eyes.

Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 feet (10 squares)
Armor Class: 9 (-1 size), touch 9, flat-footed 9
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+5
Attack: Gore -4 melee (2d4)
Full Attack: Gore -4 melee (2d4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 35/magic, easily dispelled, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 11, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Decipher Script +1, Knowledge (arcana) +4, Spellcraft +7, Swim +0, Use Magic Device +4
Feats: Magical AptitudeB, Iron Will
Environment: Temperate and cold forests
Organization: Solitary or herd (8-190)
Challenge Rating: 24
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +18

Combat
Spelks use magic. This makes them invincible. Flee!

Easily Dispelled (Su)
A spelks body is partly composed of pure magical energy. This is why they are so powerful. However, this same thing makes them vulnerable to effects that suppress magic. If a spelk is trageted by or is present in the target area of a Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, Mage's Disjunction spell or similar spells and effects, it must make a Fortitude save (DC=the caster's dispel check) or suffer 1d10 points of damage per level of the spell affecting them.

Spells
Spelks cast arcane spells as a 1st level wizard, a 1st level bard and a 1st level warmage.
Spelks cast divine spells as a 1st level druid, a 1st level favoured soul and a 1st level shugenja.

Skills
Spelks have a +2 racial bonus on Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft checks.

[georgie_leech]

Yeah, that's how prophecy is.
Wait, what's that? *There's a Mr Oedipus is on the phone, and he'd like to complain!* :smallcool:

In fairness, he got some really explicit advice from a different seer entirely that he wasn't gonna like what happened if he kept looking for answers. Of all the seers/prophecies to ignore, it just had to be the one that *wouldn't* come true if they had taken it seriously :smalltongue:

[Brutalitops]

The thing that really turns all of this into a tangled mess is the fact that Loki did talk to Hilgya. She says she prayed every night for an answer, so maybe she was casting commune every night, but if she was why didn't she just say she tried to commune with her god every night instead?

And then there's whatever's going on with the oracle.


That was a loophole loki used. Loki needed an agent to act against the gates but he could not tell Hilgya about the gates. But he could tell her where Durkon was for some unrelated revenge that just happened to align with Loki's goals.

Its a classic loki move. Breaking the spirit of a law by following it to the letter.

[Peelee]

That was a loophole loki used. Loki needed an agent to act against the gates but he could not tell Hilgya about the gates. But he could tell her where Durkon was for some unrelated revenge that just happened to align with Loki's goals.

Its a classic loki move. Breaking the spirit of a law by following it to the letter.

That didn't break the spirit of the law at all, though?

[snowblizz]

Edit: "Spelk" being, of course, a subspecies of elk with limited spellcasting abilities. They were made by the same wizard who came up with the owlbears in a vain attempt to recreate that success and re-ignite his carreer.
I got those bar stewards in my garden. They cast invisibility and sneak in and eat my potatoes, beans and other inconsequential stuff like mom's roses.

Now got dimensionally locked garden fences on back-order from local garden shop. Damn pandemic.

[Ruck]

My guess is that Redcloak has, more or less consciously, avoided having a real talk with the Dark One because he's afraid that his boss doesn't approve of his actions (like sending goblins to die, serving Xykon and murdering Right-Eye) or that Right-Eye was right about the Dark One and that none of this is actually going to help the goblinoids.

I think this is pretty reasonable, and it wouldn't even stop TDO from granting Redcloak spells. TDO probably also recognizes that, for better or worse, he's not finding a higher-level cleric who is this committed to the Plan. So it might be "Don't screw this up" in part as "Everything you've cost our people, you'd better get this done."

Then again, according to Jirix, TDO referred to Redcloak as his "true prophet," so maybe he doesn't feel that way.


It is an interesting question!

Just for everyone's refreshment, here's the relevant lines from 1206


Redcloak does seem extremely surprised at the idea that direct communication with Thor in this matter was even plausible for Durkon (Who isn't a high priest at all), and I'm not sure that "I try to give him his space" ought be interpreted as "I never call" so much as "He never responded and I've stopped trying in case I'm angering him by being pestersome".

But it feels like a very deliberate set of words to include one way or another, comic joke aside, and I wouldnt be surprised if the next panel set we get of Team Evil ends with redcloak casting Communion, all alone.

I think panel 12 is mostly a joke about relationships that are on thin ice / someone having interest that isn't reciprocated, but practically speaking it makes sense to me that Redcloak has stopped trying to Commune, if he ever did.


I'm also trying to point out that Big Purple does talk to his clerics, if not directly, through the Mantle. And if is to be believed, he even updates the info the Mantle imparts with its wearer whenever he finds out something important, since Redcloak tells Xykon it was created before the Gates were.

This is not accurate; Redcloak's story makes it clear that The Dark One creates the Crimson Mantle as a response to learning about the rifts and the Snarl. (pp. 42-43)

[Metastachydium]

This is not accurate; Redcloak's story makes it clear that The Dark One creates the Crimson Mantle as a response to learning about the rifts and the Snarl. (pp. 42-43)

It is accurate. Redcloak tells Xykon the first Bearer was killed by the Scribblers before Lirian's Gate was created, and yet Redcloak knows not only about the Rift and the Snarl, but also the Gate which was created later than the Mantle.

[Ruck]

Aha. On further reading, I see what you mean. Yeah, your interpretation probably is accurate, then.

I do find it odd that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was hunted down before the Gate ritual was even devised. The goblins were hunted just for trying to learn about the rifts? And how did the Scribble find out? Their own gods? This leaves me with more questions than I came in with.

[Metastachydium]

I do find it odd that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was hunted down before the Gate ritual was even devised. The goblins were hunted just for trying to learn about the rifts? And how did the Scribble find out? Their own gods? This leaves me with more questions than I came in with.

I'd say there's no need to overthink it. The Scribblers probably just arrived at the Rift at the same time as a group of armed goblins and things escalated quickly from there.

[Fyraltari]

Aha. On further reading, I see what you mean. Yeah, your interpretation probably is accurate, then.

I do find it odd that the Bearer of the Crimson Mantle was hunted down before the Gate ritual was even devised. The goblins were hunted just for trying to learn about the rifts? And how did the Scribble find out? Their own gods? This leaves me with more questions than I came in with.

That's not what Redcloak says, though. He says the first bearer was commanded to "seize the Rift" and the crayons shows him leading a war party. Soon's wife fell into that Rift during a picninc while they were in a diplomatic mission to the Elven Lands, so it seems Lirian's Gate/Rift was located deep in Elven territory. So their action was most likely partly defensive. Also, the crayons shows the First Bearer being defeated by the entire Order of the Scribble (minus Soon, oddly enough) and Serini's diary called Dorukan "the new kid" implying that the Order took some time to form. We don't know how long it's been between Soon and Lirian discovering the Rift and that battle, but it may have been it was long enough for them to learn at least of the scale of the danger. Probably from one of the Twelve or an Elven nature deity that Lirian worshipped.

[Ruck]

Yeah, I'm more tired than I thought because I usually can think these things through better and don't miss so many details. But I'll try anyway.


I'd say there's no need to overthink it. The Scribblers probably just arrived at the Rift at the same time as a group of armed goblins and things escalated quickly from there.


That's not what Redcloak says, though. He says the first bearer was commanded to "seize the Rift" and the crayons shows him leading a war party. Soon's wife fell into that Rift during a picninc while they were in a diplomatic mission to the Elven Lands, so it seems Lirian's Gate/Rift was located deep in Elven territory. So their action was most likely partly defensive. Also, the crayons shows the First Bearer being defeated by the entire Order of the Scribble (minus Soon, oddly enough) and Serini's diary called Dorukan "the new kid" implying that the Order took some time to form. We don't know how long it's been between Soon and Lirian discovering the Rift and that battle, but it may have been it was long enough for them to learn at least of the scale of the danger. Probably from one of the Twelve or an Elven nature deity that Lirian worshipped.

From the timeline Redcloak gives in SoD and the timeline given by Shojo's retelling of the Scribble, the goblin cleric and Soon + Lirian must have discovered the rift around the same time. But I guess they put together the Scribble before the original bearer of the Crimson Mantle set off to seize the rift? Maybe they were researching it when the goblins attacked? I don't know how long any of this took. And it probably won't matter to the story in any case, I was just trying to piece together the series of events.

Interesting, though, that I now realize The Dark One did not become aware of the other rifts even after learning of the Snarl and studying Lirian's Gate once it was built. I wonder if the Snarl had to eat a goblin cleric specifically for him to notice the rift, someone with a divine connection to him?

[Riftwolf]

Possible interpretations of 'Dont screw this up';

This was the first time TDO told Redcloak to keep fighting for the gates. He might have been tempted to settle for Gobbotopia, destroy Xykon and put his feet up. His God didn't want him accepting a silver medal when gold was still an option.

TDO knew Redcloak would be a *terrible* leader, whose hatred and neuroses would pit Gobbotopia against any nearby human territory and fall victim to the same problems Tarquin faced on the West Continent. While Redcloak was an effective war leader, he wasn't the right goblin to rule peacefully. Getting Redcloak out of Gobbotopia and back on the campaign was the best chance of Gobbotopia surviving indefinitely.

It's possible both are true.

[Ionathus]

I think this is pretty reasonable, and it wouldn't even stop TDO from granting Redcloak spells. TDO probably also recognizes that, for better or worse, he's not finding a higher-level cleric who is this committed to the Plan. So it might be "Don't screw this up" in part as "Everything you've cost our people, you'd better get this done."

Yeah, admittedly the "well if [god] is angry at [cleric/paladin], then why don't they revoke their powers?" argument can only ever give us a binary switch. Good talent is hard to find (has been for the past 5 years, at least in my country), and you're not going to fire your highest-performing employee for the slightest transgression...or even a few significant ones. I wonder what other "tools" the gods have in their toolbox for handling errant clerics or paladins without "firing" them.


TDO knew Redcloak would be a *terrible* leader, whose hatred and neuroses would pit Gobbotopia against any nearby human territory and fall victim to the same problems Tarquin faced on the West Continent. While Redcloak was an effective war leader, he wasn't the right goblin to rule peacefully. Getting Redcloak out of Gobbotopia and back on the campaign was the best chance of Gobbotopia surviving indefinitely.

I like both of your interpretations but this one is more impactful character-wise for me. Without bringing too much attention to it, that's definitely what's happening in Gobbotopia: complete with a more charismatic and diplomatic leader who might be more palatable to neighboring nations when they hit the negotiating table. And Redcloak doesn't get to live in the better world he created...


I'm not going to live there. There's no place for me there, any more than there is for you. Malcolm... I'm a monster. What I do is evil. I have no illusions about it, but it must be done.

[Rogan]

I wonder what other "tools" the gods have in their toolbox for handling errant clerics or paladins without "firing" them.


I could imagine an OOTS God who can decide to give a cleric different spells than the cleric requested.
Receiving comprehend language instead of implosion would be a strong sign that you should listen instead of fighting.

[Seward]

It is an interesting question!

Just for everyone's refreshment, here's the relevant lines from 1206


Just as a side note, I loved the implication that The Dark One is just not that "into" Redcloak. And Durkon trying and failing to try to make him feel better about it.

If you think about it, TDO cares about the artifact Redcloak, not the expendible minion currently wearing it. Where Thor cares about all his followers enough to make them feel good about their personal choices when they died. "You've been Thored!"

Hazards of following a LE deity instead of a NG one (I assume Thor is NG not CG as usually depicted cause he has LG priests. Being patron of dwarves may have dragged him in Lawful direction in this reality)



Yeah, admittedly the "well if [god] is angry at [cleric/paladin], then why don't they revoke their powers?" argument can only ever give us a binary switch. Good talent is hard to find (has been for the past 5 years, at least in my country), and you're not going to fire your highest-performing employee for the slightest transgression...or even a few significant ones. I wonder what other "tools" the gods have in their toolbox for handling errant clerics or paladins without "firing" them.


Traditionally in D&D, you don't grant them the spells they ask for. This can range from "No spells at all" to "a few slots blank" to "I'll give you spells I think you should have instead". All spells for a divine caster are "by permission" of the deity.

It isn't quite the same thing, but I had a favored soul once who really wasn't a fan of his deity of storms, chaos and destruction. He just wanted to be a healer but an ancestor had lost a bet....well anyway he's stuck with it. His spell list was a negotiation. He had to take 1-2 storm/destructive spells for every wuss cure X or restoration type spell. They were so opposed that stuff inbetween (like a combat buff spell) tended to not make the cut. Being a typical adventurer, his life had enough murderhobo aspects to keep his deity happy even if he'd prefer a quieter life.

As a GM, I had a player who wanted to follow a god of prophecy and luck, and what we did is I gave him a spell list every day (most of it randomized, maybe 1 or 2 spells though that might be pretty cool in the upcoming day based on what I knew as a GM). He then tried to "prove" his god gave him the perfect spell list "lucky and prophetic", trying to find a use for every spell that day. It was pretty fun, but sadly that campaign didn't last long. It was a 6thish level story arc so the total # of spells wasn't a big job for me.

[KorvinStarmast]

TDO probably also recognizes that, for better or worse, he's not finding a higher-level cleric who is this committed to the Plan. So it might be "Don't screw this up" in part as "Everything you've cost our people, you'd better get this done."

Then again, according to Jirix, TDO referred to Redcloak as his "true prophet," so maybe he doesn't feel that way. Kind of like how Ike felt about General Patton: he's an abrasive, motivated, loose cannon who happens to be really good at this war thing, but he's my abrasive, motivated, loose cannon who happens to be really good at this war thing.

This was the first time TDO told Redcloak to keep fighting for the gates. He might have been tempted to settle for Gobbotopia, destroy Xykon and put his feet up. His God didn't want him accepting a silver medal when gold was still an option.

TDO knew Redcloak would be a *terrible* leader, whose hatred and neuroses would pit Gobbotopia against any nearby human territory and fall victim to the same problems Tarquin faced on the West Continent. While Redcloak was an effective war leader, he wasn't the right goblin to rule peacefully. Getting Redcloak out of Gobbotopia and back on the campaign was the best chance of Gobbotopia surviving indefinitely.
Which fits my Ike / General Patton scenario somewhat. :smallsmile:

[Metastachydium]

Kind of like how Ike felt about General Patton: he's an abrasive, motivated, loose cannon who happens to be really good at this war thing, but he's my abrasive, motivated, loose cannon who happens to be really good at this war thing.

Know that this is a good one.

[Precure]

However, there's a problem with this.

3.) Jirix is barely a character.

Jirix hasn't been seen for about a decade. When he was in the comic, he was a tertiary character in a side-plot. What do we actually know about him? Well, he's probably mid-level, and Xykon considers him fun. He's probably more Chaotic and/or has a higher Charisma stat than Redcloak. That's pretty much it.

If the Dark One wasn't actually around, it would be another huge twist. It would be another complication that would likely throw the plot in a different direction. It feels... strange to have this sort of thing hinge on the word of a character who's otherwise totally unimportant to the plot. Jirix could be an unreliable narrator, but he hasn't exactly been set up as one. You can do this sort of thing as an author, but I don't think OOTS is the kind of story that pivots on the actions of extremely minor NPCs that briefly appeared ten years ago.

There is a theory that believe that Jirix and the previous Supreme Leader, who seized the leadership after poisoning royal court, are the same hobgoblin.

[Carl]

Also Hilgya is the perfect counterpoint to that. How long had it been since she last turned up. A lot longer thats for sure.

[Metastachydium]

Also Hilgya is the perfect counterpoint to that. How long had it been since she last turned up. A lot longer thats for sure.

That's not a really good counterpoint, though. I wouldn't be surprised if Jirix showed up again, but showing up again and getting a bit of extra spotlight is hardly the same thing as literally saving the world and single-handedly solving a major plot thread. Hilgya was a minor asset who turned into a major liability surprisingly fast. The two things are simply not on the same scale.

[Carl]

That's not a really good counterpoint, though. I wouldn't be surprised if Jirix showed up again, but showing up again and getting a bit of extra spotlight is hardly the same thing as literally saving the world and single-handedly solving a major plot thread. Hilgya was a minor asset who turned into a major liability surprisingly fast. The two things are simply not on the same scale.

I was responding to the quote snippet, should have gone back and read the context again, i was arguing she was a counterpoint to Jrinx not ever showing up again.

As an aside Jrinx is effectivlly next in line for the high priest position if anythign happens to RC as well as de facto ruler of Gobotopia. Short of "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" he's going to show up in at least the epilogue. I doubt where going to see Xykon, RC, and the snarl all dealt with at the North Pole and then "so long and thanks for all the fish" as an ending.

[Peelee]

Jrinx.

Man, your autocorrect really hates Jirix. :smalltongue:

[Doctor West]

I doubt where going to see Xykon, RC, and the snarl all dealt with at the North Pole and then "so long and thanks for all the fish" as an ending.

I too doubt this is going to end with all the worlds dolphins making a flippant remark as they bail out right before Earth is destroyed.

[Carl]

Man, your autocorrect really hates Jirix. :smalltongue:

Nah, in this case it's me spelling it how i remember it. Ughhh. Sorry.

[Chronos]

Possible interpretations of 'Dont screw this up';

This was the first time TDO told Redcloak to keep fighting for the gates. He might have been tempted to settle for Gobbotopia, destroy Xykon and put his feet up. His God didn't want him accepting a silver medal when gold was still an option.

TDO knew Redcloak would be a *terrible* leader, whose hatred and neuroses would pit Gobbotopia against any nearby human territory and fall victim to the same problems Tarquin faced on the West Continent. While Redcloak was an effective war leader, he wasn't the right goblin to rule peacefully. Getting Redcloak out of Gobbotopia and back on the campaign was the best chance of Gobbotopia surviving indefinitely.

It's possible both are true.

But it's also possible that the Dark One wasn't telling him to keep fighting for the gates. It's possible that he was telling him "Now that we've got a stable goblin homeland, which was the ultimate goal all along, the plan's changed. Don't screw it up by continuing with the original plan."

The ambiguity is what makes it great.

[Peelee]

But it's also possible that the Dark One wasn't telling him to keep fighting for the gates. It's possible that he was telling him "Now that we've got a stable goblin homeland, which was the ultimate goal all along, the plan's changed. Don't screw it up by continuing with the original plan."

The ambiguity is what makes it great.

Except Redcloak was already singularly focused on Gobbotopia at the expense of The Plan, so that meaning doesn't make sense. It only makes sense to remind Redcloak of The Plan, as a note to get his butt in gear after a year of sitting around effectively abandoning The Plan.

No ambiguity. Just "go after the Gate".

[Emanick]

But it's also possible that the Dark One wasn't telling him to keep fighting for the gates. It's possible that he was telling him "Now that we've got a stable goblin homeland, which was the ultimate goal all along, the plan's changed. Don't screw it up by continuing with the original plan."

The ambiguity is what makes it great.

I too thought that the ambiguity was great (I disagree with Peelee that TDO’s intent was clear), but unfortunately The Giant clarified in the book’s commentary that Redcloak’s god was indeed trying to get him to not screw up the original Plan by making sure he stays focused on the Gates.

It’s one of the only things Rich has said that I’ve thought makes the story less, rather than more, interesting - keeping TDO’s true position opaque would have been fascinating, and indeed it was (to me) until it was clarified.

[Fyraltari]

Jirix did preface it with "a message for you. Regarding the Plan and all..."

So while I did initially think that TDO was talking about Gobbotopia, I can see why The Giant thought he had been clear enough. These things happen.

As for the ambiguity, I think TDO's lack of involvment keeps him mysterious enough to be ambiguous.

[Peelee]

I too thought that the ambiguity was great (I disagree with Peelee that TDO’s intent was clear).

I may have overstated my thoughts. For some time, I also thought it was ambiguous, but debate with people who disagreed convinced me that, followed to its logical conclusion, it could only refer to The Plan and not to Gobbotopia.

[Precure]

It would be very stupid of DO to leave it ambigious like that if he really wants Redcloak to give up on the plan.