Metallic dragons and cleric spells

[TallerSpine]

One of my players is thinking of playing a copper dragon. The party found a copper dragon egg, and one of the party members died. So, during downtime, they were going to hatch the egg. The party is 8th level, so the player was thinking of starting as an ECL 7 character and then going sorcerer. I explained that this is very suboptimal, and the character would lag behind the rest of the party, but he was quite adamant about wanting to try this out.

So, onto my question: The copper dragon entry says they can choose spells known from the Cleric spell list as well as from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains. When the player takes his first sorcerer level, would he qualify to learn cleric spells by virtue of being a copper dragon? Or is that only when he gains spells known from racial HD? (Either way, I plan to rule he can take cleric spells, but I wanted to know for my own edification if this was RAW).

Also, given this expanded spell list, if you were the player, what sorts of spells would you choose? I want to point him to this thread if he is interested, so I suppose this is also Player Help.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Since you're the DM, how about swap all of the baby dragon's LA to racial HD with a few of those (say, 3/4) providing sorcerer CLs that are progressed with actual sorcerer levels (including the expanded spell list)? It'd still leave him behind a little, but sorcerer is already way behind most casting classes due to the crippled casting; there's no reason to force the player into a bad situation because the devs hated anyone playing a race that wasn't "human, but with the serial numbers filed off."

[TallerSpine]

Since you're the DM, how about swap all of the baby dragon's LA to racial HD with a few of those (say, 3/4) providing sorcerer CLs that are progressed with actual sorcerer levels (including the expanded spell list)? It'd still leave him behind a little, but sorcerer is already way behind most casting classes due to the crippled casting; there's no reason to force the player into a bad situation because the devs hated anyone playing a race that wasn't "human, but with the serial numbers filed off."

The wyrmling copper dragon would make an excellent rogue. I am not sure the racial hit dice are that useless. He will be size category Tiny, have +4 natural armor, +2 Con, Int, Wis, and Cha, have a bite with 5 ft reach (making it one of the only tiny creatures with 5 ft reach), and two wing attacks if it manages to make it into the same square as its opponent. 6+Int skill points is nothing to sneeze at, either. A d12 for hit dice is very nice. It is really not a bad race choice for a rogue. It is terrible for a sorcerer. Dropping the level adjustment makes a lot of sense, but I am not sure I want to give him the extra caster level. I want the experience to be fun, but if he is looking for a challenge to make a character concept work, that is his decision. I'd rather provide quests for him later to unlock his racial magical abilities early rather than give it to him straight away.

[Gruftzwerg]

Why not turn the egg into a Dragonwrought Kobold? They can be metallic dragons too and are way less problematic to include into your game.

[Saintheart]

So, onto my question: The copper dragon entry says they can choose spells known from the Cleric spell list as well as from the Chaos, Earth, and Trickery domains. When the player takes his first sorcerer level, would he qualify to learn cleric spells by virtue of being a copper dragon? Or is that only when he gains spells known from racial HD? (Either way, I plan to rule he can take cleric spells, but I wanted to know for my own edification if this was RAW).

I wouldn't rule that he can learn cleric spells as a sorcerer just because he's a copper dragon. Click on the 'Spells' special ability for dragons and it seems pretty clear:


Sometimes a creature can cast arcane or divine spells just as a member of a spellcasting class can (and can activate magic items accordingly). Such creatures are subject to the same spellcasting rules that characters are, except as follows.

A spellcasting creature that lacks hands or arms can provide any somatic component a spell might require by moving its body. Such a creature also does need material components for its spells. The creature can cast the spell by either touching the required component (but not if the component is in another creature’s possession) or having the required component on its person. Sometimes spellcasting creatures utilize the Eschew Materials feat to avoid fussing with noncostly components.

A spellcasting creature is not actually a member of a class unless its entry says so, and it does not gain any class abilities. A creature with access to cleric spells must prepare them in the normal manner and receives domain spells if noted, but it does not receive domain granted powers unless it has at least one level in the cleric class.

If you rule the player can pull cleric spells into his sorcerer class list, that's transgressing this rule. Knowing and casting "as a" Sorcerer does not mean they are one. It doesn't stack its spellcasting abilities with class levels, in effect the dragon's casting list is a separate spell list to its Sorcerer class abilities.

[Remuko]

If you rule the player can pull cleric spells into his sorcerer class list, that's transgressing this rule. Knowing and casting "as a" Sorcerer does not mean they are one. It doesn't stack its spellcasting abilities with class levels, in effect the dragon's casting list is a separate spell list to its Sorcerer class abilities.

Not true at all. Monsters who have spells as a class have those spells advanced when taking levels of the class. A dragon who takes sorcerer levels advances his innate dragon casting. Other monsters do as well when they cast as classes like Nymphs and druid casting or Cleric casting Driders.

[Saintheart]

Not true at all. Monsters who have spells as a class have those spells advanced when taking levels of the class. A dragon who takes sorcerer levels advances his innate dragon casting. Other monsters do as well when they cast as classes like Nymphs and druid casting or Cleric casting Driders.

Can you show me the rule where it says so?

[hamishspence]

Can you show me the rule where it says so?

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels

Associated Class Levels
Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.

Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.

Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.

A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability.

[Maat Mons]

The best way to play as a wyrmling dragon is to play as a spellcaster and take the Dragon Familiar feat.

Arguably, a copper dragon with Sorcerer levels wouldn't gain the ability to learn Cleric spells until it reached the young age category, and actually got it's racial spellcasting.

Gold and silver dragons can turn into humans from even as wyrmlings. If you play one of those, you could convince everyone that you're just an ordinary human with a really suboptimal build.

Instead of being a regular dragon with Sorcerer levels, maybe be a Spellhoarding dragon with Wizard levels?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Not true at all. Monsters who have spells as a class have those spells advanced when taking levels of the class. A dragon who takes sorcerer levels advances his innate dragon casting. Other monsters do as well when they cast as classes like Nymphs and druid casting or Cleric casting Driders.

Indeed. However, the copper dragon is a wyrmling, it doesn't have any spells yet. As of now, taking sorcerer levels will only give it the standard spell list.


One of my players is thinking of playing a copper dragon. The party found a copper dragon egg, and one of the party members died. So, during downtime, they were going to hatch the egg. The party is 8th level, so the player was thinking of starting as an ECL 7 character and then going sorcerer. I explained that this is very suboptimal, and the character would lag behind the rest of the party, but he was quite adamant about wanting to try this out.

What I advise you to do to balance it is to use the Steel wyrmling stats instead (Dragons of Faerun, or here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20040328a), the LA is +2 and it is quite balanced at this level. Your player can take a first level of sorcerer (making the dragon cast as a sorcerer 2) if they want to start at ECL 7). You can do a few changes to make it more copper-like and less steel-like:
- Earth subtype instead of Air
- No Alternate Form/Polymorph, but can choose spells from the cleric spell list and the Chaos, Earth and Trickery domain
- No SR, but gets the slow gas breath weapon of the copper dragon.
- Acid immunity instead of +10 against poison.

Alternatively, you can look up the negative LA-thread in my sig. I believe giving the player a Young copper dragon with 8 RHD and no LA would not break anything, and let them advance their spellcasting (they would still be 3 spellcasting levels behind the steel solution above, but would have a much stronger chassis and actually usable breath weapon).


Also, given this expanded spell list, if you were the player, what sorts of spells would you choose? I want to point him to this thread if he is interested, so I suppose this is also Player Help.

I'd say I'd immediately choose Lesser Vigor (SpC) as a 1st level spell. Healing is the major thing that clerics can do that sorcerers can't, and it will help a lot to be able to cast it spontaneously. Same with Restoration later (at least one of the versions). You'll probably be a gish, so Divine Favor is also a must-have. I like Command (1st) and Hold Person (exists on the wizard list, but 1 level lower for a cleric), but I'm not sure you'd not be able to do better with wizard spells. If you rule that the mention of Wisdom means "your spellcasting ability" instead, then Spiritual Weapon is excellent on a dragon. With the dragon's full BAB (if you go the Young Copper route, less so with a Steel wyrmling), you'll be able to strike twice or thrice per round in no time with the weapon. At higher levels, I'm a big fan of Bestow Curse and Stone Shape as 3rd level spells, while they are a bit weak as their 4th level wizard version. At 4th level, Freedom of Movement is an absolute must-have, and you can do much worse than having Planar Ally at your disposal. Level 5: Plane Shift. Just Plane Shift. Getting it 4 levels before a sorcerer and 3 before a wizard is very nice (of course, only if your party doesn't have another caster. Let's not forget the dragon is 5 to 7 levels behind in spellcasting). Also Raise Dead is unavoidable if you don't have a real cleric. Maybe True Seeing? For the 6th level spells (if you ever go that high, which is unlikely), I see nothing that a wizard can't do better. Maybe Heal?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd highly recommend following Beni-Kujaku's advice. I highly doubt the character wouldn't fit in with most mid-level parties without being particularly overpowered or feeling like you can't reasonably contribute with it.

And don't forget to purchase eternal wands of spells crafted by other mages and other dragons (for arcane cleric spells, or druid spells from the Child of Eberron draconic archetype). You can get stuff you'll need a few times per day, such as Sudden Extended mage armor, magic vestments, or magic weapon.

[Remuko]

Indeed. However, the copper dragon is a wyrmling, it doesn't have any spells yet. As of now, taking sorcerer levels will only give it the standard spell list.

I don't agree with this interpretation. The ability to choose cleric spells seems to be a trait of being a metallic dragon. It never says its limited to their racial casting. Dragons are already super weak unless played with stuff like the reassigned LA's from this forum anyways, I hardly think this would be a massive boost.

[hamishspence]

In every case, it's a footnote to the dragon's racial casting.


Caster Level 1

1. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ____ and ____ domains as arcane spells.

[InterstellarPro]

In every case, it's a footnote to the dragon's racial casting.


Caster Level 1

1. Can also cast cleric spells and those from the ____ and ____ domains as arcane spells.

That is an interesting point. The ability does not say the dragon can choose cleric spells as spells known, just that they can cast them as arcane spells. It does not mention anything about casting the spells as sorcerer spells. Yet, most of the sample Copper Dragons in the Draconomicon have cleric spells among the known sorcerer spells. So, likely, the authors of the Draconomicon read this to mean that dragons could choose the spells as spells known.

If the DM wants to allow this, it does not seem game breaking to me. Here is my list of spells for a copper dragon (assuming copper is chosen for their penchant for trickery):

0th Level:
Arcane Mark, Create Water, Dancing Lights, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, No Light, Open/Close, Prestidigitation

1st Level:
Create Trap, Disguise Self, Mage Armor, Magic Aura, Obscuring Mist, Shield, Shield of Faith, Silent Image, Lesser Vigor

2nd Level:
Addiction (BoVD spell, but not marked as evil, use with caution), Darkness, Enthrall, False Life, Glitterdust, Invisibility, Knock, Mirror Image, Misdirection, Phantom Trap, Price of Loyalty (Player's Guide to Eberron, p149), Silence, Web, Wings of Air

More to come. These are my favorite from each level. For the most part, cleric spells are less useful for trickery than sorcerer spells, and many of the trickery domain spells are already on the sorcerer spell list.

[wilphe]

That is an interesting point. The ability does not say the dragon can choose cleric spells as spells known, just that they can cast them as arcane spells. It does not mention anything about casting the spells as sorcerer spells.

If it does not mean that they can learn and cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells what would "being able to cast cleric spells as arcane" meaningfully accomplish?

All I can think of is:

1) You don't need a Divine Focus

2) You are now subject to ASF

3) Some feats would interact differently

4) You can become a wizard and learn them that way