Would adding on half casting to Rogue be overpowered?

[dmhelp]

Comparing half casting rogue (rogue plus half casting of whatever spell list, perhaps wizard) to fighter (thinking 11+), paladin, and full casters…. (so we ignore barb, monk, ranger)….

If a half caster rogue is overpowered, how overpowered is it?

[Amnestic]

Arcane Trickster is a "1/3rd" caster and it's commonly considered one of the best/strongest subclasses for rogue, so I expect giving them 1/2 caster 'for free' would be a significant powerboost.

Would it 'break' the game? Probably not, but rogues are already solid. They don't need a boost like that.

[MoiMagnus]

Comparing half casting rogue (rogue plus half casting of whatever spell list, perhaps wizard) to fighter (thinking 11+), paladin, and full casters…. (so we ignore barb, monk, ranger)….

If a half caster rogue is overpowered, how overpowered is it?

Adding it? Quite overpowered.

Replacing his subclass by half casting? That's already much more reasonable, as you're upgrading a 1/3 caster into a 1/2 caster. I'd probably consider removing the level 10 ASI to compensate.

On most tables, it's probably still overpowered. However, with some GMs, the rogue can be quite lackluster. There are IMO two main questions:
+ Is the Rogue able to reliably sneak attack each and every turn where they attack? (or at least 75% of them, not taking in account chances of missing the attacks)
+ Is the Expertise class feature actually useful on a regular basis?
If the answer is NO to both (so the GM is quite hostile to the Rogue having consistent sneak attacks, and the GM doesn't rely much on skill checks for actually interesting actions), then I'd say a buff to the Rogue is fair to compensate for them.

[shipiaozi]

Rogue is not weak, the build of full-rogue is extremely weak though. Even arcane trickster could have 5/6 casting, full rogue is still worse than casters with extra attack lv6.

The correct rogue build is Fighter 5/Rogue X or Paladin 6-7/Hexblade 1/Rogue X crossbow user, they are already on par with second tier Fighter now, add half casting would make these builds close to top builds in 5e.

[da newt]

IMO - Changing the arcane trickster subclass to 1/2 caster would be a significant buff, but not broken/OP (you are adding 1/6th caster - not that much). I'd think it would make for a PC very similar to Paladin and other 1/2 caster classes in raw power.

I'm of the opinion you could make EKs 1/2 casters and they wouldn't be OP vs full casters or CHA MCs.

[Amechra]

My gut feeling is that you'd have a reasonably balanced class if you replaced Sneak Attack with Artificer-style half casting. You'd have to fiddle with all of the subclasses, though.

In general, though, this question is heavily dependent on what kind of spell list you give them.

[Foxhound438]

If you were upgrading arcane trickster from 1/3 to 1/2 in its spell level progression, I don't think it would be too broken. The big upgrades would probably be getting Hold Monster and Seeming later on, and having the option to take wall of force as an off-school spell.

The nice thing here though is that if you were really worried about it being OP, you could offer this scaling at the cost of the higher level features the AT normally gives. Your new "feature" at 9th, 13th, and 17th is now the new level of spell you can cast, just like the Paladin.

In terms of numbers comparisons, here's how this version of AT would stack up against paladin:

Paladin 3: 1 attack at about 10 damage, or 19 three times per day
Rogue 3: 1 attack at about 14 damage, if using sneak attack; 7 otherwise

Paladin 5: 2 attacks at about 11 damage, or 20 four times per day plus 24 twice
Rogue 5: 1 attack at about 19 damage with SA, 8 otherwise, and use of shadow blade twice per day for 23 for that given fight

Paladin 11: 2 attacks at about 16 damage, 4 hits/day for 25, 3 hits for 30, 3 hits for 34
Rogue 11: 1 attack at about 27 with SA; 3 shadow blades for 31 through a fight and 3 upcasts for 36

Paladin 17: 2 attacks at about 16 damage, 4/day for 25, 3 for 30, 3 for 34, 3 for 39, and with banishing smite one for 43; note that if you were feeling lucky you might get more out of the 5th level slot with holy weapon
Rogue 17: 1 attack at about 41 with SA; 3 shadow blades for 45, 3 upcasts for 50; not sure what they might use the 4th or 5th level spell slots on, but if you go with tasha's summon spells for an off school you would be getting the 41 from the attack plus maybe two more attacks at 12ish damage

With that, the paladin is pretty much on par with this rogue in damage for as long as it has spell slots, and at some levels still higher out of gas than the rogue. Add in polearm master on the paladin and it's pretty cemented in as better, while rogue might be able to do a bit better with crossbow expert and spirit shroud instead of shadow blade. Paladin otherwise has lay on hands, sometimes a good channel divinity, defensive auras, cleansing touch, and a couple wildcard features from oaths. Rogue has better skills, hide on a bonus action, uncanny dodge, evasion, 3 saving throw proficiencies, elusive, and stroke of luck. It's pretty close to even depending on how you value those things.

[diplomancer]

Adding it? Quite overpowered.

Replacing his subclass by half casting? That's already much more reasonable, as you're upgrading a 1/3 caster into a 1/2 caster. I'd probably consider removing the level 10 ASI to compensate.

On most tables, it's probably still overpowered. However, with some GMs, the rogue can be quite lackluster. There are IMO two main questions:
+ Is the Rogue able to reliably sneak attack each and every turn where they attack? (or at least 75% of them, not taking in account chances of missing the attacks)
+ Is the Expertise class feature actually useful on a regular basis?
If the answer is NO to both (so the GM is quite hostile to the Rogue having consistent sneak attacks, and the GM doesn't rely much on skill checks for actually interesting actions), then I'd say a buff to the Rogue is fair to compensate for them.

And the most important question: how long is the adventuring day? Rogues on a 2-3 big encounters per day really suck; giving them half-casting (with a slightly modified Bard spell list, taking off the healing spells, basically) might be an interesting way to encourage more people to play one in that sort of game.

I would not give it to the AT on a regular adventuring day, though. It's already the best Rogue subclass, it doesn't need a buff. Do that, and you are basically eliminating all other Rogue subclasses.

[da newt]

Maybe the best way to answer this is to ask How would you optimize an AT with 1/2 casting progression?

[Arkhios]

Simply adding half-casting on top of rogue chassis would probably be a bit too overpowered. But if a sub-class feature would adjust sneak attack for example, then I could see potential in this.

Technically, there's nothing that would prevent a sub-class from down-grading an existing general feature, except the lack of a precedent case.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Comparing half casting rogue (rogue plus half casting of whatever spell list, perhaps wizard) to fighter (thinking 11+), paladin, and full casters…. (so we ignore barb, monk, ranger)….

If a half caster rogue is overpowered, how overpowered is it?

A very wise person above mentioned the DM problem some Rogues have.

I will toss in a player or potential bad guy problem.

My theory is some players (me included) have a play style which can nkt take advantage of the strengths of some classes.

Also some classes of bad guys annoyingly have advantage on magic saves making them stronger against some classes. Are you finding bad guys who annoy your rogue more?

In gsmeral I'd say maybe bump the arcane trickster to a half caster.

If not, be prepared. Your party's Lore Bard may request Sneak Attack as a balancing feature and on and on.

[KorvinStarmast]

The correct rogue build is Fighter 5/Rogue X or Paladin 6-7/Hexblade 1/Rogue X crossbow user, they are already on par with second tier Fighter now, add half casting would make these builds close to top builds in 5e. *face palm*
Not sure how many Arcane Tricksters you've played, but I've seen two of them go into Tier 3 without multiclassing. A very effective, playable, and fun class.

I have no idea what criteria you use for your "correct build" assessment, but IME, your assertion is quite simply wrong.

By the way
Paladin 6-7/Hexblade 1/Rogue X
Three multiclasses is rarely a good build strategy (unless you are doing high level one - shots)

[RSP]

Changing AT to 1/2 caster may be the way to go. Or just play a Bard.

Really, I’d use the Bard class as the bar not to pass, and by which to make “power” comparisons.

[dmhelp]

My gut feeling is that you'd have a reasonably balanced class if you replaced Sneak Attack with Artificer-style half casting. You'd have to fiddle with all of the subclasses, though.

The reason I was asking is because I was experimenting with a four class alternative system. So almost every level has a power choice. You can choose half casting or sneak attack but not both. But then I was thinking if I wanted to play a gish why not just play a Cleric or Wizard with Thirsting Blade (in a four class system) and still get 6th-9th level spells. Then I was thinking maybe it wouldn't be unbalanced if Rogues also had half casting since they went ahead and gave full casters access to Extra Attack anyway.

This would be a possible "Rogue":
1 Expertise (arcana, athletics); Halfcaster (Wizard/intelligence); martial weapons (all)
2 Unarmored Defense (AC 12 + [str mod] or AC 13 + [dex mod]; no shields)
3 Fiend Warlock subclass
5 Extra Attack
6 Expertise (investigation, thieves’ tools)
7 Magical Secrets (with additional spells at levels 14 & 17)
9 Fiend power 2
10 Spell Sneak Attack (1d6/3 levels)
11 Action Surge (2/short rest)
13 Fiend power 3
14 Cunning Action
15 Improved Attunement (4th item)
17 Fiend power 4
18 Fighting Style Blind Fighting
20 Foeslayer (add int or wis mod to all attack damage rolls)

Revised Rogue – use Rogue except as follows (ASIs still at 4/8/12/16/19):
Skills: All

1 Expertise; Choose Halfcaster (Spellcasting from one class list [no restrictions] with corresponding casting ability mod; as a half caster but with 2 first level cantrips/spells at level 1 and cantrip progression as a Bard of half level; spells known = 3 + half level; Arcane Trickster/Eldritch Knight can later add Wizard spell list access [with option for intelligence based casting] & additional cantrips but doesn’t add additional spells known or spell slots) or Sneak Attack; Choose martial weapons (all), Thieves’ Cant, or three languages/tools
2 Rogue Talent
3 Choose subclass from Bard (requires Bardic Inspiration & Halfcaster), Fighter, Ranger (ignore additional spells if not Halfcaster), Rogue (some subclasses require Sneak Attack), or Warlock/Wizard (requires Halfcaster with Warlock or Wizard spell list)
5 Rogue Talent
6 Expertise
7 Rogue Talent
9 Subclass power 2
10 Rogue Talent
11 Choose Action Surge (2/short rest), Jack of All Trades (+3 to all ability checks that do not already benefit from Expertise/double proficiency), or Reliable Talent
13 Subclass power 3
14 Rogue Talent
15 Rogue Talent
17 Rogue Talent
18 Rogue Talent
20 Rogue Talent

Rogue Talents:
Bardic Inspiration d8 (2 + level/5 uses, regain on short rest)
Countercharm/Song of Rest 2d6
Cunning Action
Fighting Style Blind Fighting (Blind Sight/Detect Invis 10’)
Fighting Style Two Weapon Fighting (if has Extra Attack then at level 11 offhand also does double base weapon dice)
Jack of All Spells (requires Halfcaster; add another class spell list, can use any available spell list ability mod to cast)
Slippery Mind (choose one other save if already has wis)
Unarmored Defense (AC 12 + [str mod] or AC 13 + [dex mod]; no shields)
Versatile Sneak Attack (requires Sneak Attack; removes finesse requirement)
Extra Attack (requires level 5 & Halfcaster)
Spell Sneak Attack (requires level 5 & Halfcaster; 1d6/three levels damage with spell attacks that otherwise meet the same qualifications as Sneak Attack)
Uncanny Dodge (requires level 5 & Sneak Attack)
Evasion (requires level 7 & Sneak Attack)
Land’s Stride (requires level 7)
Magical Secrets (requires level 7 & Halfcaster; increases spells known by 2 chosen from any spell list with upgrades at levels 14 & 17 [i.e. 6 total secrets at 17])
Poison Immunity (requires level 10)
Bardic Inspiration d12 (requires level 15 & Bardic Inspiration d8)
Improved Attunement (requires level 15; allows attunement with 4 magic items)
Subclass power 4 (requires level 15 & a subclass that has 4 powers)
Superior Inspiration (requires level 15 & Bardic Inspiration d8)
Fighter subclass power 5 (requires level 17, subclass power 4, & a Fighter subclass)
Elusive (requires level 18 & Sneak Attack)
Stroke of Luck (requires level 18)
Foeslayer (requires level 20; add int or wis mod to all attack damage rolls)